Grindfall

Jacobin · March 2009

I have played DF pretty hardcore for the past few weeks and while I enjoy many aspects of the game, I have come to realize that around 90% of myself and my whole guild's play time is spent macroing up.

In fact the only thing that cannot be achieved by macroing is combat. The system is certainly refreshing compared to most recent turn based mmos, but you really cannot do anything other than 1 click basic meele swing, or archery unless you grind magic for weeks and weeks, only to fire a simple fireball or whatever element you go for.

There are no meele skills that cause dots, roots, debuffs or anything other then basic dammage, and aside from aiming, archery has nothing special. If you want to do anything more than the basics, you have to sit there casting spells for hours and hours waiting for your mana bar to refill.

Then there are the reagents which is another massive grind as it takes thousands to get anything good.

Crafting is another massive grind (I have 75 armor smith, 50 tailoring, 100 mining, 100 mining mastery) and really only serves to help yourself since the only economy to speak of is for mats and reagents to supply the macroers.

No one has any incentive to buy anything from crafters since you might as well craft yourself since you gain stats, money is better spent investing in your own ability to recup your losses, and there is nothing better to do when your solo since farming weak spawns endlessly is somewhat dangerous and boring.

The best thing the game has going for it right out of gate is the more skilled, yet extremely basic meele and archery. If you want to do anything cool like magic, crafting or city building, be prepared to spend THOUSANDS of hours most likely macroing since hardly anyone would waste their time actually clicking.

The more skillful combat, open pvp, and full loot is fun for a time and certainly refreshing for the genre. The problem is that everything thing else is an even worse grind than any mmo I've played since the only way for most people to even acomplish it is through countless hours of afk macroing. And thats only going to get you the most basic spells.

The very fact alone that someone who afk macros for 10 days will be able to do cooler stuff than someone who plays less, but legit is just sad. The funny thing is that the guy who macros all day will even brag about how good his skills are and the sad thing is that the gameplay encourages this.

I actually feel bad for the people who will eventually have the level 100 skills in elements and higher schools of magic becuase I know how much money they will have paid adventuring in order to afk macro in their world.

Why anyone would actually pay a company to let the computer play the game for them for 90% of their playtime is something I just cannot seem to grasp. God forbid I actually want to be entertained for the entire time that I am logged in.

I almost miss AOE grinding on mobs and quest farming to improve my abilities because at least those tasks require me to be at my screen and engage my mind.

I wish they would just give everyone 100 in every combat and spell skill so that people can focus on the good things darkfall has - sandbox pvp and city attack and defense. Instead most people seem to prefer grinding out every skill of every tree in order to unlock the next skill grind in the next tree.

In my eyes the grind that darkfall requires is something much worse than anything that has been released recently. The only reason why we haven't seen more complaints is because most of the people in the game are hardcore fans since even getting into the game is a grind of its own.

Die_Scream · March 2009

Fans call the grind hardcore, I'd call it bad design.

Moretrinkets · March 2009

WHat?!

TowlieFTW · March 2009

Bu bu bu but its hardcore!

aqua61209 · March 2009

i know a guy who spent three days lvling his magic to 100 and GM to 50 without macroing. Those afk macro'ers suck hardcore lmao

Jacobin · March 2009

To me, hardcore does not mean that I should pay a company to let me perform mundane tasks that might as well be done by a computer for hours on end only to end up getting the most basic spells that are low level.

People really should not be proud of themselves for doing that.

If skills could ONLY be levelled up through fighting other players, then that would be hardcore pvp.

A.Blackloch · March 2009

Well go shoot manabolts to walls, isn't that what everybody does? I bet that is one the few fun parts of the game.

Bruticus_XI · March 2009

Successful grind means all but the most critical of people won't notice they're grinding because they're having too much fun, or the grinding is worth it.

You wake up and go to work almost every day, you're grinding. Well, not if you love your job. Sure, it still might feel like a grind some days, but the majority of the time, you won't think "Damn, I still have to come back tomorrow...!"

Grinding is unavoidable in a game based on numbers. It's hard to avoid in any game where you do the same thing over and over - only factor is how well the game mechanics disguise it and how fun it is.

Velexia · March 2009

This is interesting. Developing an OARPG under the pseudonym Project Vex, I plan to have skills that develop through use. The intention is not to cause players to grind them out repeatedly, but to allow players to gradually increase in skill as they play.

This is a serious issue for skills that develop through use. Other games, such as World of Lamecraft have had skills that increased as they were used, but you don't really see players grinding them out...

Where did Darkfall go wrong where World of Lamecraft did not, and what can be done to fix this (from a developers standpoint, not specifically for Darkfall)?

Jacobin · March 2009

Originally posted by Bruticus_XI

Successful grind means all but the most critical of people won't notice they're grinding because they're having too much fun, or the grinding is worth it.
You wake up and go to work almost every day, you're grinding. Well, not if you love your job. Sure, it still might feel like a grind some days, but the majority of the time, you won't think "Damn, I still have to come back tomorrow...!"

Grinding is unavoidable in a game based on numbers. It's hard to avoid in any game where you do the same thing over and over - only factor is how well the game mechanics disguise it and how fun it is.

If you gave everyone 100 skill, or made it so you could ONLY level up skills through pvp, then a lot of the mundane things would be gone and people could actually engage in the FUN things the game offers.

Jacobin · March 2009

Originally posted by Velexia

This is interesting. Developing an OARPG under the psuedonym Project Vex, I plan to have skills that develop through use. The intention is not to cause players to grind them out repeatedly, but to allow players to gradually increase in skill as they play.

This is a serious issue for skills that develop through use. Other games, such as World of Lamecraft have had skills that increased as they were used, but you don't really see players grinding them out...

Where did Darkfall go wrong where World of Lamecraft did not, and what can be done to fix this (from a developers standpoint, not specifically for Darkfall)?

All you have to do is make it so that you actually have to hit a person or mob to make the skill go up. I guess my main gripe is that skills should not go up by shooting into thin air. Secondly, make crafting so that it does not increase stats.

Those changes alone would make DF less of a macro fest, and actually require you to be at the screen in order to develop your character.

Bruticus_XI · March 2009

Originally posted by Nihilist

Originally posted by Bruticus_XI

Successful grind means all but the most critical of people won't notice they're grinding because they're having too much fun, or the grinding is worth it.
You wake up and go to work almost every day, you're grinding. Well, not if you love your job. Sure, it still might feel like a grind some days, but the majority of the time, you won't think "Damn, I still have to come back tomorrow...!"

Grinding is unavoidable in a game based on numbers. It's hard to avoid in any game where you do the same thing over and over - only factor is how well the game mechanics disguise it and how fun it is.

If you gave everyone 100 skill, or made it so you could ONLY level up skills through pvp, then a lot of the mundane things would be gone and people could actually engage in the FUN things the game offers.

Sure, the best way (in my opinion) of doing any Skill system is having very low max levels. Think about it, the more levels there are, the more you have to grind them. Replace the levels with things you can actually do with those skills. EVE is a good example - most people max their Skills at level 4 or level 5, not 100 or something like that. Because EVE has a time system, I understand it's a bit different, but it's relatively fast (and you don't have to grind anything) compared to, say, a 100 max Skill level.

Notice I kept using levels...in a Skill based, non linear, non themepark/level game. Interesting, eh?

All Skill-based sandboxes will face this problem. I'm eagerly expecting Earthrise devs to go into more detail about it (they said they couldn't because they're still in early beta) but I think they understand the problem:

"In Earthrise skills serve as containers for Abilities and Tactics. Each Skill contains a set of Abilities and/or Tactics and as players progress in a Skill, they unlock Abilities or Tactics. From character advancement viewpoint, Abilities and Tactics are the same - they are options that players unlock as their character accumulates knowledge and experience...There are no classes in Earthrise. No levels, also. And we have taken a different approach to the way the skills advance, which I cannot comment on too much because we're still in beta. We will try to offer a very interesting approach based on character actions, because skill advancement through use gets very repetitive and boring. We wanted to make it more fun and more attractive for players to advance their character.

They will be able to do all sorts of actions, but they will have to make some decisions while doing those actions to advance their skill. It's up to the player to decide on what skill to focus rather than the system choosing based on skill usage."

Downside is, they've already confirmed skills can only be "leveled" in PvE. They might change that though, or have only some skills that can be "leveled" in PvP.

I still think a fusion of level and skill based systems is the only way a good MMO is going to be created.

Fadedbomb · March 2009

Originally posted by Nihilist

I have played DF pretty hardcore for the past few weeks and while I enjoy many aspects of the game, I have come to realize that around 90% of myself and my whole guild's play time is spent macroing up.
90% you say? So you ACTUALLY took all the time you've played, along with your guild's time played, and divided it by how much you macroed? I think not...

In fact the only thing that cannot be achieved by macroing is combat. The system is certainly refreshing compared to most recent turn based mmos, but you really cannot do anything other than 1 click basic meele swing, or archery unless you grind magic for weeks and weeks, only to fire a simple fireball or whatever element you go for.
A fact you say? Regardless of the FACT that my sister in law, whom is the only one in our family who has been lucky enough to purchase DF so far, got her magic from 11 to 100 + 42 GM in a little under a week from just pvping and killing mobs...WITHOUT macroing? I think your macro is failing you sir.

There are no meele skills that cause dots, roots, debuffs or anything other then basic dammage, and aside from aiming, archery has nothing special. If you want to do anything more than the basics, you have to sit there casting spells for hours and hours waiting for your mana bar to refill.
So the fact that we DON'T want cheesy effects on our melee abilities like those found in WoW or WAR, that have no real impact other than making you THINK your melee attacks are anymore special than the other, is a bad thing? Also, what's this about "hours" for your mana bar to refill? I sat there and watched Lucy play for over 3hours last saturday and she never had to wait even a FRACTION of that time for her mana to refill.

Then there are the reagents which is another massive grind as it takes thousands to get anything good.
Massive grind you say. THOUSANDS of resources to get anything good you say. Have you ever played Dark Age of Camelot, where you spend weeks if not months getting your crafting skills high enough to actually matter? I'd rather it take me months to get my crafting LGM'ed (legendary grand mastered) and ACTUALLY make useful things with my time, rather than spending 3 days to LGM a trade and have it be ABSOLUTELY flippin worthless when mobs/quests start dropping nicer crap than we can make.

Crafting is another massive grind (I have 75 armor smith, 50 tailoring, 100 mining, 100 mining mastery) and really only serves to help yourself since the only economy to speak of is for mats and reagents to supply the macroers.
See above, also the game is not even a month old and you're expecting a shining economy? Not to mention the fact there is no bazaar for you "new agers" to use. Heck, back in my day (EQ) we used specific well known zone locations as merchant hubs to sell/buy goods, and ACTUALLY ineracting with OTHER players rather than their NPC mockups or text based auctions.

No one has any incentive to buy anything from crafters since you might as well craft yourself since you gain stats, money is better spent investing in your own ability to recup your losses, and there is nothing better to do when your solo since farming weak spawns endlessly is somewhat dangerous and boring.
Have you actually tried to sell something to another player? If you have, maybe you just aren't giving your would-be customers the incentive they require to buy from you? Are you selling for too much? Are you not selling enough? Are you not around frequent enough to craft/sell to customers? This isn't WoW, AoC, or WAR....expect some actual incentive on YOUR part to help an economy emerge.

The best thing the game has going for it right out of gate is the more skilled, yet extremely basic meele and archery. If you want to do anything cool like magic, crafting or city building, be prepared to spend THOUSANDS of hours most likely macroing since hardly anyone would waste their time actually clicking.
As it should be, without the macroing part! You want everything handed to you without work? I'm all for everything NOT being a massive immensive, unintellectually interested grind, however I can't stand by while people complain about the GOOD crap being too hard to obtain so not EVERYONE has EVERYTHING all the time!

The more skillful combat, open pvp, and full loot is fun for a time and certainly refreshing for the genre. The problem is that everything thing else is an even worse grind than any mmo I've played since the only way for most people to even acomplish it is through countless hours of afk macroing. And thats only going to get you the most basic spells.
Have you ever not macro'ed in NineDragons? I went from level 54 to 55 in 32hours of straight grinding of quests/npcs. THAT game is the MOST grind intensive I have EVER seen in all my years of MMO gaming. Oh, and btw there are upwards of 140++ levels in that game.

The very fact alone that someone who afk macros for 10 days will be able to do cooler stuff than someone who plays less, but legit is just sad. The funny thing is that the guy who macros all day will even brag about how good his skills are and the sad thing is that the gameplay encourages this.
Then perhaps that is the error of macros? Hence their legalicy in MMO gaming taking all the hardwork and earnage from other players. Sounds to me like this is the best case of all on why macroers should be perma-banned from every MMO.

I actually feel bad for the people who will eventually have the level 100 skills in elements and higher schools of magic becuase I know how much money they will have paid adventuring in order to afk macro in their world.
$15.00USD after their free month gives out?

Why anyone would actually pay a company to let the computer play the game for them for 90% of their playtime is something I just cannot seem to grasp. God forbid I actually want to be entertained for the entire time that I am logged in.
Again, you're bagging on OTHER macroers, and 90% again you say? You've actually compiled an XML spreadsheet of hundreds of other customers whom are macroing and divided the time they've played by how much they've macroed agains total time? Albeit that formulai is simply for conjecture, and not actual function...but you get my point no? If the game said in the FAQ:
Q:"Is this game for macro users?"
A:"Yes"
Then I would agree about your frustration over macroing being the ONLY way, however that's not the case here now is it?

I almost miss AOE grinding on mobs and quest farming to improve my abilities because at least those tasks require me to be at my screen and engage my mind.
Perhaps "almost" isn't the word you should be using here sir?

I wish they would just give everyone 100 in every combat and spell skill so that people can focus on the good things darkfall has - sandbox pvp and city attack and defense. Instead most people seem to prefer grinding out every skill of every tree in order to unlock the next skill grind in the next tree.
Taking away ANY real accomplishment within Darkfall, and making everyone feel EXACTLY the same COMPLETELY removing ANY sandbox elements within the game? Yea, sure...let's do that shall we?

In my eyes the grind that darkfall requires is something much worse than anything that has been released recently. The only reason why we haven't seen more complaints is because most of the people in the game are hardcore fans since even getting into the game is a grind of its own.
Or perhaps the reason why we haven't seen many complaints on this issue is because there is no issue? This isn't military science here (if you've been in the military, you know what I mean) where if something isn't being reported there must be a HORENDOUS(sp?) issue.

All in all, I believe you need to reobjectify your position on issues related to Darkfall. I've seen this very same thread composition in nearly EVERY mmo to day, ranging from WoW all the way to Nine Dragons. You've presented no substantial arguement as to any real issue with Darkfall's skill system.

wicked357 · March 2009

Oh MMORPG fans, what has happened to us? We have been so spoiled with carebear games and easy to play games that we all forgot how a grind was normal on some of the best MMO's ever released. Why does everyone want the game to be so easy and achievable? I remember the days of UO where you had to tame all day to get a few more % into your skill and it went up in .1 increments, just to get a white dragon tamed so you could have a pet or get a mare. Everyone complains about the grind, what has happened to the pride of having a bad ass account that you worked your ass off for. I personally don't like grinding either, but I remember the days where being legendary in your skill was something to be proud of, now everyone wants it in a few weeks of playing. Say what you will, but everyone who knows what I am talking about, knows the truth!

DarthRaiden · March 2009

Skills level process gained faster by hitting targets ..

I think its a mentality problem of players tend to want to max out everything ..because sandbox offers you freedom..you have the freedom to progress on a individual pace but ofcourse everyone want to be ASAP best in something ..so they tend to focus on 1 repetitive task then letting things happen while they on something ..

Good thing sandbox holds always a surprise factor .. i mean after they max something they find out they specialist in one thing and noobs in everything else..so the story begins again.. someone on a more natural pace will need much more time to master something but on te other hand..his char will be balanced to his needs, playstyle will fit his needs and he has "mastered" far more situations meaning he knows much more about the game then the specialist..

Someone hitting a wall is a lot worser in PvP at level 50 then someone who pvp till level 50 ..

Bruticus_XI · March 2009

Originally posted by wicked357

Oh MMORPG fans, what has happened to us? We have been so spoiled with carebear games and easy to play games that we all forgot how a grind was normal on some of the best MMO's ever released. Why does everyone want the game to be so easy and achievable? I remember the days of UO where you had to tame all day to get a few more % into your skill and it went up in .1 increments, just to get a white dragon tamed so you could have a pet or get a mare. Everyone complains about the grind, what has happened to the pride of having a bad ass account that you worked your ass off for. I personally don't like grinding either, but I remember the days where being legendary in your skill was something to be proud of, now everyone wants it in a few weeks of playing. Say what you will, but everyone who knows what I am talking about, knows the truth!

*Shakes walking cane while holding his hunched back* "Yeah you young whippersnappers, why back in my day everything was better! The sun shone brighter in those first MMOs because you felt good about working your ass off! You felt good about coming home from work to go to work in your virtual world! Why you young hooligans nowadays want everything now! You're ruining my memories!"

That's what I saw it as.

Now, to the point. Games should be easy to learn, but hard to master. Especially MMOs. EVE does this well. You should not have to work as hard to start as you do when you're trying to "get that white dragon" or whatever. This brings in the whole problem with effort vs. reward, and how to balance things out. It works in the real world because the real world is unbalanced - however, in an MMO, everyone wants to have a chance.

Yes, if you play for a long time and have legendary skills and whatnot, you should be able to kick the crap out of most anyone. If that's the case, unfortunately, it's a bad game.

Now, I saw the OP complaining about having to macro to grind skills in order to be effective. That's bad game design. You should be able to be effective (at least basically effective) without too much effort, then you can advance however far you want based on how much work you want to put into it.

Dkevlar · March 2009

Originally posted by wicked357

Oh MMORPG fans, what has happened to us? We have been so spoiled with carebear games and easy to play games that we all forgot how a grind was normal on some of the best MMO's ever released. Why does everyone want the game to be so easy and achievable? I remember the days of UO where you had to tame all day to get a few more % into your skill and it went up in .1 increments, just to get a white dragon tamed so you could have a pet or get a mare. Everyone complains about the grind, what has happened to the pride of having a bad ass account that you worked your ass off for. I personally don't like grinding either, but I remember the days where being legendary in your skill was something to be proud of, now everyone wants it in a few weeks of playing. Say what you will, but everyone who knows what I am talking about, knows the truth!

Because some of us are not 20 anymore. Because our wifes and kids call us for things when we are playing, because there is a mortage and bills to pay, bosses wanting us to put more and more work hours ... you name it.... in short because WE GOT OLDER andthe pace of life changed dramatically over the last 3-5 years for most of the audience/player base of this kind of games.

Truth is if I was able to displace my familiar and professional envinronment in time, backwards ofc, to the "great times" where I played UO,AC; SWG, well even early wow with r14 grinding, truth would be I would have quited all those games in a short amount of time,since with all the responsabilities of today, I would have achieved nothing there.

Jacobin · March 2009

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Nihilist

I have played DF pretty hardcore for the past few weeks and while I enjoy many aspects of the game, I have come to realize that around 90% of myself and my whole guild's play time is spent macroing up.
90% you say? So you ACTUALLY took all the time you've played, along with your guild's time played, and divided it by how much you macroed? I think not...

In fact the only thing that cannot be achieved by macroing is combat. The system is certainly refreshing compared to most recent turn based mmos, but you really cannot do anything other than 1 click basic meele swing, or archery unless you grind magic for weeks and weeks, only to fire a simple fireball or whatever element you go for.
A fact you say? Regardless of the FACT that my sister in law, whom is the only one in our family who has been lucky enough to purchase DF so far, got her magic from 11 to 100 + 42 GM in a little under a week from just pvping and killing mobs...WITHOUT macroing? I think your macro is failing you sir.

There are no meele skills that cause dots, roots, debuffs or anything other then basic dammage, and aside from aiming, archery has nothing special. If you want to do anything more than the basics, you have to sit there casting spells for hours and hours waiting for your mana bar to refill.
So the fact that we DON'T want cheesy effects on our melee abilities like those found in WoW or WAR, that have no real impact other than making you THINK your melee attacks are anymore special than the other, is a bad thing? Also, what's this about "hours" for your mana bar to refill? I sat there and watched Lucy play for over 3hours last saturday and she never had to wait even a FRACTION of that time for her mana to refill.

Then there are the reagents which is another massive grind as it takes thousands to get anything good.
Massive grind you say. THOUSANDS of resources to get anything good you say. Have you ever played Dark Age of Camelot, where you spend weeks if not months getting your crafting skills high enough to actually matter? I'd rather it take me months to get my crafting LGM'ed (legendary grand mastered) and ACTUALLY make useful things with my time, rather than spending 3 days to LGM a trade and have it be ABSOLUTELY flippin worthless when mobs/quests start dropping nicer crap than we can make.

Crafting is another massive grind (I have 75 armor smith, 50 tailoring, 100 mining, 100 mining mastery) and really only serves to help yourself since the only economy to speak of is for mats and reagents to supply the macroers.
See above, also the game is not even a month old and you're expecting a shining economy? Not to mention the fact there is no bazaar for you "new agers" to use. Heck, back in my day (EQ) we used specific well known zone locations as merchant hubs to sell/buy goods, and ACTUALLY ineracting with OTHER players rather than their NPC mockups or text based auctions.

No one has any incentive to buy anything from crafters since you might as well craft yourself since you gain stats, money is better spent investing in your own ability to recup your losses, and there is nothing better to do when your solo since farming weak spawns endlessly is somewhat dangerous and boring.
Have you actually tried to sell something to another player? If you have, maybe you just aren't giving your would-be customers the incentive they require to buy from you? Are you selling for too much? Are you not selling enough? Are you not around frequent enough to craft/sell to customers? This isn't WoW, AoC, or WAR....expect some actual incentive on YOUR part to help an economy emerge.

The best thing the game has going for it right out of gate is the more skilled, yet extremely basic meele and archery. If you want to do anything cool like magic, crafting or city building, be prepared to spend THOUSANDS of hours most likely macroing since hardly anyone would waste their time actually clicking.
As it should be, without the macroing part! You want everything handed to you without work? I'm all for everything NOT being a massive immensive, unintellectually interested grind, however I can't stand by while people complain about the GOOD crap being too hard to obtain so not EVERYONE has EVERYTHING all the time!

The more skillful combat, open pvp, and full loot is fun for a time and certainly refreshing for the genre. The problem is that everything thing else is an even worse grind than any mmo I've played since the only way for most people to even acomplish it is through countless hours of afk macroing. And thats only going to get you the most basic spells.
Have you ever not macro'ed in NineDragons? I went from level 54 to 55 in 32hours of straight grinding of quests/npcs. THAT game is the MOST grind intensive I have EVER seen in all my years of MMO gaming. Oh, and btw there are upwards of 140++ levels in that game.

The very fact alone that someone who afk macros for 10 days will be able to do cooler stuff than someone who plays less, but legit is just sad. The funny thing is that the guy who macros all day will even brag about how good his skills are and the sad thing is that the gameplay encourages this.
Then perhaps that is the error of macros? Hence their legalicy in MMO gaming taking all the hardwork and earnage from other players. Sounds to me like this is the best case of all on why macroers should be perma-banned from every MMO.

I actually feel bad for the people who will eventually have the level 100 skills in elements and higher schools of magic becuase I know how much money they will have paid adventuring in order to afk macro in their world.
$15.00USD after their free month gives out?

Why anyone would actually pay a company to let the computer play the game for them for 90% of their playtime is something I just cannot seem to grasp. God forbid I actually want to be entertained for the entire time that I am logged in.
Again, you're bagging on OTHER macroers, and 90% again you say? You've actually compiled an XML spreadsheet of hundreds of other customers whom are macroing and divided the time they've played by how much they've macroed agains total time? Albeit that formulai is simply for conjecture, and not actual function...but you get my point no? If the game said in the FAQ:
Q:"Is this game for macro users?"
A:"Yes"
Then I would agree about your frustration over macroing being the ONLY way, however that's not the case here now is it?

I almost miss AOE grinding on mobs and quest farming to improve my abilities because at least those tasks require me to be at my screen and engage my mind.
Perhaps "almost" isn't the word you should be using here sir?

I wish they would just give everyone 100 in every combat and spell skill so that people can focus on the good things darkfall has - sandbox pvp and city attack and defense. Instead most people seem to prefer grinding out every skill of every tree in order to unlock the next skill grind in the next tree.
Taking away ANY real accomplishment within Darkfall, and making everyone feel EXACTLY the same COMPLETELY removing ANY sandbox elements within the game? Yea, sure...let's do that shall we?

In my eyes the grind that darkfall requires is something much worse than anything that has been released recently. The only reason why we haven't seen more complaints is because most of the people in the game are hardcore fans since even getting into the game is a grind of its own.
Or perhaps the reason why we haven't seen many complaints on this issue is because there is no issue? This isn't military science here (if you've been in the military, you know what I mean) where if something isn't being reported there must be a HORENDOUS(sp?) issue.

All in all, I believe you need to reobjectify your position on issues related to Darkfall. I've seen this very same thread composition in nearly EVERY mmo to day, ranging from WoW all the way to Nine Dragons. You've presented no substantial arguement as to any real issue with Darkfall's skill system.

Sure I have.

What I continually stated is that in order to get anywhere you have to perform hundreds of hours worth of mundane tasks which can be achieved by macroing. If I had to actually DO SOMETHING other than simply click one button a hundred thousand times like for instance - PVP, then maybe I could actually have fun and gain a sense of acomplishment THAT ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING.

The funnies thing about your post, which is full of crap for the most part is that YOU DON'T EVEN OWN THE GAME.

Velexia · March 2009

Originally posted by Nihilist

Originally posted by Velexia

This is interesting. Developing an OARPG under the psuedonym Project Vex, I plan to have skills that develop through use. The intention is not to cause players to grind them out repeatedly, but to allow players to gradually increase in skill as they play.

This is a serious issue for skills that develop through use. Other games, such as World of Lamecraft have had skills that increased as they were used, but you don't really see players grinding them out...

Where did Darkfall go wrong where World of Lamecraft did not, and what can be done to fix this (from a developers standpoint, not specifically for Darkfall)?

All you have to do is make it so that you actually have to hit a person or mob to make the skill go up. I guess my main gripe is that skills should not go up by shooting into thin air. Secondly, make crafting so that it does not increase stats.

Those changes alone would make DF less of a macro fest, and actually require you to be at the screen in order to develop your character.

What about non-combat skills that do not require components, such as jumping, crawling, or running? Granted, Project Vex has an endurance system, so perhaps the need to rest lest you become vulnerable, in addition to the possibility of permanent death will fix the issue automatically...

Edit: To assist, some information about endurance in Project Vex --Characters have a fairly decent sized endurance pool, however, every swift movement, active attack-deflection, dodge, jump, attack, and so forth uses endurance, which does not recover until the character has ceased these actions for a few seconds. With this in addition to needing to have some true purpose for the action (how to regulate for jumping though?) the problem should be minimal.

Jacobin · March 2009

Originally posted by Velexia

Originally posted by Nihilist

Originally posted by Velexia

This is interesting. Developing an OARPG under the psuedonym Project Vex, I plan to have skills that develop through use. The intention is not to cause players to grind them out repeatedly, but to allow players to gradually increase in skill as they play.

This is a serious issue for skills that develop through use. Other games, such as World of Lamecraft have had skills that increased as they were used, but you don't really see players grinding them out...

Where did Darkfall go wrong where World of Lamecraft did not, and what can be done to fix this (from a developers standpoint, not specifically for Darkfall)?

All you have to do is make it so that you actually have to hit a person or mob to make the skill go up. I guess my main gripe is that skills should not go up by shooting into thin air. Secondly, make crafting so that it does not increase stats.

Those changes alone would make DF less of a macro fest, and actually require you to be at the screen in order to develop your character.

What about non-combat skills that do not require components, such as jumping, crawling, or running? Granted, Project Vex has an endurance system, so perhaps the need to rest lest you become vulnerable, in addition to the possibility of permanent death will fix the issue automatically...

Personally, I think running, jumping, crawling and swimming should not even be skills you level up. They should be based on the type of armor your wearing.

Again, making people auto run for a hundred thousand hours to get to where everyone else will end up anyways is pointless, and encourages AFK play to develop a character.

Velexia · March 2009

The prospect of permanent death will more than likely prevent a player from going afk while a character auto-runs into a wall-corner. Perhaps the running feature can be based upon: <is character running?> <track distance traveled> <reward skill in running based upon distance traveled>.

The answer might also be found in hiding skill progression from the player. The purpose for having running, jumping, and such as skills is to allow characters to eventually learn to run faster or longer, jump higher or farther, etc.

Edit: Additionally, with Project Vex's endurance system, your character would fall unconscious from exhaustion if forced to run continuously for long periods of time.

sassoonss · March 2009

Darkfall is not in a true sense grind free at all

Spell have to be grinded to certain level to unlock further spells and skills

I think they tried to copy miserably th functionality of EVE .This is I feel why

Now I am using a sword and with every successfuluse I improvemy sword skill there is a soft cap at around lvl 100.

Now without exploits or macros say it will take me onth or 2 to fully maximise my sword skill, The3rd month I move on to Polearms ,5th month to maces and so on

After 8 month someone new joins in and satrt levelling say sword.Like EVE in this case he would be par to me and can defeat me .The extra choice I have is that I have more optios than him .In theorey it sounds great

But so many people are using macroes to lvlup there spells So instead of taking a natural time frame of 4 months to maximise say 2 or 3 paths of spells (air , fire witchcraft, necomancy etc) they are doing that in few days.

Same with harvesting node macros working 24/7 So new people joining in or a new guild has absolutely no chance to stand before them.

For a game that boast of no lvl based its a grind based skill & spells game. Macros are used to grind repititive mundane jobs.

1) They should have opened up all the skills to everyone and then each perso would decide whetherhe wants to master a skill or be jack of all trades.

2) Macro shoudl be a strict no and bannable offense.The current stance of the devs is that unattended macro in teh wilderness is allowed.

3) rEmove universal banks .Damn everyone is running naked everywhere . People want to enjoy PVP in a carebear atmosphere.

4) Not to mention teh havoc doen by exploters

Jacobin · March 2009

Originally posted by wicked357

Oh MMORPG fans, what has happened to us? We have been so spoiled with carebear games and easy to play games that we all forgot how a grind was normal on some of the best MMO's ever released. Why does everyone want the game to be so easy and achievable? I remember the days of UO where you had to tame all day to get a few more % into your skill and it went up in .1 increments, just to get a white dragon tamed so you could have a pet or get a mare. Everyone complains about the grind, what has happened to the pride of having a bad ass account that you worked your ass off for. I personally don't like grinding either, but I remember the days where being legendary in your skill was something to be proud of, now everyone wants it in a few weeks of playing. Say what you will, but everyone who knows what I am talking about, knows the truth!

I don't mind if things take a long time to achieve - I just want to journey to get there to be interesting and enjoyable or in otherwords WORTH my time and money.

How is prefering to develop my character through interesting tasks like pvp rather then afk macroing or mundane tasks making everything easy or something to be less proud of?

Take the example of mounts in DF. I can get a mount by afk macro farming herbs until I get a steed grass. Boy thats real satisfying isn't it?

How about if I was instead awarded a steed grass everytime I killed 50 players?

That is way harder to achieve, requires actual skill, forces me to actually play the game, and is actually FUN!

Something like that is way more hardcore then macro farming for 8 hours.

glomma · March 2009

Sadly i have not been able to get a copy of the game yet, still trying though, so spending my time reading about this macroing, but no one actually say anything about how to make these macros, are they easy to make ?, maybe some could write some examples here ?

thank you, hope to kill you all in DF soon

Dostum · March 2009

Don't grind, go and pvp. Just get a mount and some gear and look for people to kill.

I agree on 1 thing though, the economy.

I have no need to buy stuff. I just mine the ore myself, get leather myself, pay 68g crafting cost to a clanmate and bang I have my armour set.

I want a mount? I just herb in our farm and ask a crafter in clan.

Weapon? same

Pots?

Same

To rectify this we need (IMO).

Auction houses or vendors.

More spawns, and more spawns which drop gold, making gold easier to get, and make farming it preferable to gathering mats.

Then I will have gold and just go to the AH to buy armour/pots/weapons quickly.

Auction houses would also MASSIVELY help create economies, on the subcontinents in particular.

APEist · March 2009

I agree with the OP.

Unlike some of the people who have replied, I think it SHOULD take less time to achieve things in DF.

The longer the grind, the more you cater to macroers. The more dull the system (harvesting skills, anyone), the more attractive you are to macroers.

Progression is one of the largest issues in the game.

They need to shorten magic and some crafting (tailoring) grinds, and they need to lower the soft cap... I want to see real specialization in Darkfall. Ofc, there needs to be a warning ingame when you get halfway towards reaching the soft cap, another warning at 3/4s, etc. so you can choose your skills wisely.

Howdy, Stranger!

Grindfall

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Grindfall

Comments