Originally posted by lifesbrink Ha! That is hilarious. I hate to break this to you Zind, but the fat, docile majority of America would lay down and die if the government decided to oppress it. The only hope of this nation would be if the military itself actually decided to NOT follow the government's orders, and we all know how good at decision making any military member is *grins*.
It seems as you are projecting your potential actions to the whole of American society. Just because you think so negatively of yourself does not mean the population as a majority would react such as you. However, I would agree with you to a point if that majority you speak of is liberals. They are the ones who would lie face down and pretend nothing happened.
Obama is an Illinios Democrat. From his campaign its believed he will put limitations on the right to bear arms. So more people are buying guns now before such a law is put in place.
Are you f'ing serious? Stupidity has no bounds, ha ha......like such a law would ever exist!
Before you get so smug, the thing people are worried about is an increase in the taxation of bullets, which is why they are stocking up now before they are more expensive.
The reason is because Obama proposed such a tax increase when he was a senator, except now he is in a better position to get it pushed through.
Cactus,
It's not the tax on bullets what hunters and people who just like to target shoot are worried about. Its the serialization of the ammo. My God...read this! This is absolutely crazy.
Comments? Unbelievable. What is this great country coming to?
Cactus, It's not the tax on bullets what hunters and people who just like to target shoot are worried about. Its the serialization of the ammo. My God...read this! This is absolutely crazy. Comments? Unbelievable. What is this great country coming to? LINK
It is about the serialization and there really is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong with trying to track ammo with distinguishing features so that crimes may be solved and more data and information can be collected about firearms? Purchasing and sales could be monitored much more like if its being sold here or to Mexican drug lords.
Tracking data and something as important as this presents a viable alternative to guessworks and "he said, she said" arguments. Informational gathering purposes of all types are needed rather than just ammo floating around everywhere. It doesn't matter that ammo makers will have to spend more money on the technology and pass it on to the consumer. That's like saying its stupid to have emissions on vehicles because or standards on building materials because they would go out of business trying to comply with laws for public safety. If you like the sport thats well and good, but you have to understand costs associated with certain things go up as attitudes change. And something like firearms should not be a "cheap" and inexpensive thing that anyone can get into. It's not like playing checkers, its serious business and a public safety matter. But yet any wahoo can walk into Walmart or similar places and pay very little for a box of 9mm Luger or .40 rounds. This really is madness considering the century we live in.
Forgive me if I couldn't take half of those reasons from your link seriously (QQing about money half the page) as anything other than propaganda from the "National Shooting Sports Foundation" who has Washington lobbyists. Try links from more neutral, academic sites like this to bolster your argument rather than groups that stand to gain from the issue like your biased linkage. Get some academia to support your positions with facts, data and arguments other than "It's gonna cost you more to buy bullets".
It's time we got more accurate statitics on this dangerous slice of Americana and there is no reason the U.S. taxpayers should have to foot this bill. Better to pass the cost onto the assault rifle makers and ammo makers themselves, who provide little to no data worth anything and are obviously are not concerned about the country's ills and would prefer people stay in the dark regarding safety figures, while they improve their sales figures.
What would keep criminals from molding their own bullets to use, bypassing the tracking? What would keep the criminals from stealing your ammo and using it in a crime?
What would keep the criminals from altering the rounds purchased so they can’t be traced? This once again is a piece of legislation that puts the burden on the law abiding citizen by making legal gun owners pay the price for criminals!
These technology and tracking costs will be passed on to the legal gun owner when they purchase encoded ammo. It is also another way of a back door gun registry without registering the gun, they just register your ammo.
Originally posted by outfctrl What would keep criminals from molding their own bullets to use, bypassing the tracking? What would keep the criminals from stealing your ammo and using it in a crime? What would keep the criminals from altering the rounds purchased so they cant be traced?
I agree criminals could do their own loads and reloads. You can buy loading supplies and powder over the internet or at a local supply shop. Criminals can also steal your ammo. They also could alter rounds, just like they alter gun restristrations already etched into current weapons. Valid points.
Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern.
Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue.
Theft: Yep, they can steal your ammo. But wait.. aren't 'responsible gun owners' supposed to keep ammo and firearms under lock and key? I know you do based on how well you post; you seem quite responsible and I'd wager you don't leave ammo around unlocked. And aren't they liable to report when crimes like this occur or face prosecution? If they steal your ammo out of a well locked area, they are good criminals and the law says "Oh well". If they steal your ammo from under your bed or off your unlock closet shelf, that person is an idiot and possibly has to face the law or private lawsuits for being negligent if their unreported weapons or ammo was unsecured.
I don't believe something like serialization is an end-all to gun crime. I do believe that it can be used with other ideas to help make the country safer overall.
All the gun owners I know, their guns and ammo is the most "protected/secure" thing in the house. Inside a locked case, with another locked case(this one actually metal), and then the ammo itself in it's own locked case often times in a seperate room. Anything less is almost asking for trouble as unlikely as it is.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
For what exactly do you need a rambo arsenal in your basement?
You americans are hilarious.
Actually, the second amendment exists primarily as a means of self defense and as a potential counter to a tyrannical government. Think about it, in a society where its citizens are not allowed to possess firearms, what measure do they have against a govt that oppresses its people?
Ha! That is hilarious. I hate to break this to you Zind, but the fat, docile majority of America would lay down and die if the government decided to oppress it. The only hope of this nation would be if the military itself actually decided to NOT follow the government's orders, and we all know how good at decision making any military member is *grins*.
Hey boy, there are things in life you do not insult. Volunteers ready to give their life to uphold your freedom are not one of them. Think before you post next time.
When a piscating wizard floods every thread I can understand why people leave.
Perhaps you should take a look at your Constitution once in a while. The 2nd Amendment says, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a FREE State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
We already have a militia. It's called the National Guard and Air National Guard. They'll let anyone play with assault rifles all they like several times a year.
Concerned citizens can sign up here if they like. Unless you guys are busy waiting for SWTOR or Earthrise.
Militia = Ordinary citizens not paid a regular salary or committed to a length of service.
When a piscating wizard floods every thread I can understand why people leave.
Militia = Ordinary citizens not paid a regular salary or committed to a length of service.
Sure, if you use just ONE definition. There are a few around. And btw, it does not mention anything about unpaid "salary" or no pay. A militia can be paid and they usually are/were.
Colonials were paid militias against the British simply due to the cost of being away from their farms and businesses. You really think most of them fought for free, huh? Lol. Most would have stayed subjects under the British if there was no pay because even though they'd be taxed, they'd have their land still. With no pay, how does a farmer keep his family alive without fighting a war? One example from states. Read the contents.
Ha! That is hilarious. I hate to break this to you Zind, but the fat, docile majority of America would lay down and die if the government decided to oppress it. The only hope of this nation would be if the military itself actually decided to NOT follow the government's orders, and we all know how good at decision making any military member is *grins*.
Perhaps you confuse your personal situation/sentiment with the rest of America? I think you may be projecting a bit.
Not even going to argue about the military decision making, you obviously haven't a clue what you are talking about. To so ignorantly lump the entire military and all its members into one statement. Generalizations make life easier don't they?
Why, personal situation is a rather amusing generalization now isn't it? Projecting would only work if I cared what happened to this nation. If the government turned, I would fight my way out of the country and move. This place is not worth my life.
However, you all know as well as I do that most Americans are fairly blind (figuratively), ignorant, and lazy. Most of you won't admit to it, but that is just blind patriotism for you.
As for the military, from serving in the Air Force and watching well adjusted people get turned into mindless drones, I have no doubt their capacity for making decisions is fairly low. That is the Air Force too, the branch with the highest intellectual requirement, or at least it was when I was 18.
As for Sargoth, you mentioning that they are volunteers is just plain dumb. Let's see how many people would volunteer into our military if we took out all pay and only left their clothing, food, and housing stipends.
Seriously, a lot of you act like the enlisted force is the minority, and the officer corps are the majority....
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
What would keep criminals from molding their own bullets to use, bypassing the tracking? What would keep the criminals from stealing your ammo and using it in a crime?
What would keep the criminals from altering the rounds purchased so they can’t be traced?
I agree criminals could do their own loads and reloads. You can buy loading supplies and powder over the internet or at a local supply shop. Criminals can also steal your ammo. They also could alter rounds, just like they alter gun restristrations already etched into current weapons. Valid points.
Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern.
50ish bucks for a cheap press, maybe another 50 for materials and 30ish minutes reading up or being taught ( tops) and a person can reload their own rounds. It is not rocket science. Primar, brass, propellant, bullet.
Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue.
Boring makes this point pointless. Is it really all that boring to someone who is trying to get away with something illegal. You greatly under estimate people.
Theft: Yep, they can steal your ammo. But wait.. aren't 'responsible gun owners' supposed to keep ammo and firearms under lock and key? I know you do based on how well you post; you seem quite responsible and I'd wager you don't leave ammo around unlocked. And aren't they liable to report when crimes like this occur or face prosecution? If they steal your ammo out of a well locked area, they are good criminals and the law says "Oh well". If they steal your ammo from under your bed or off your unlock closet shelf, that person is an idiot and possibly has to face the law or private lawsuits for being negligent if their unreported weapons or ammo was unsecured.
Locking something up isn't foolproof it is just a deterrent. I agree the bulk of peoples weapons should be locked up. However it is just one measure in a number of measures a person can use to help secure their weapons.
I don't believe something like serialization is an end-all to gun crime. I do believe that it can be used with other ideas to help make the country safer overall.
50ish bucks for a cheap press, maybe another 50 for materials and 30ish minutes reading up or being taught ( tops) and a person can reload their own rounds. It is not rocket science. Primar, brass, propellant, bullet.
Boring makes this point pointless. Is it really all that boring to someone who is trying to get away with something illegal. You greatly under estimate people.
Locking something up isn't foolproof it is just a deterrent. I agree the bulk of peoples weapons should be locked up. However it is just one measure in a number of measures a person can use to help secure their weapons.
Again, you are assuming the vast majority of criminals are enterprising. Quite to the contrary. The majority are lazy and shiftless. They would rather not work and get over every time. Having had extensive dealings with these folks, they would always choose easy money and little gratification over hard work and job satisfaction. That has been my experience with them. These people have tons of idle time which is usually filled with figuring out the least amount of resistance to working.
When you've had an opportuntity to work in a correctional setting for over two decades and actually hear their stories almost daily, one thing is constant. There will consistently be an effort to shirk and circumvent, or otherwise have others take care of their responsibilities. This extends to their own children; if someone else can raise them, all the better. There is no way they'd look at the materials available and start pressing ammo. The average criminal is not some mastermind with plans. Most of their crimes are committed spur of the moment, while they are under the influence of something, or just a crime of opportunity involving no planning whatsoever. I doubt they would have been making ammo just for a carjack or robbery. Usually its just "There's a car, I need a ride. Get out of the car." or some other senseless reason to gain something free and easy. Not sure what type of criminals you've dealt with in the past, but most of them think like that.
You say I give them too little credit by "greatly" underestimating people. I believe you have not had enough experience with the type of people you are discussing (perhaps you've watched news footage and gained your perspective) and say you give them far too much credit. But then again, you have probably worked in law enforcement for as long as I had, but in a different capacity.
You have far more to fear from a supremist group in Idaho, Kentucky, Wyoming or Georgia in the United States buying weapons for their paramilitary "training compounds" than just about any common criminal that has been incarcerated. And 3/4ths of these supremists are the ones buying up all the ammo and assault rifles. I have no idea why we went halfway around the world to find terrorists in caves, when they have already been in the United States since the turn of the century with post office boxes and addresses.
Actually, looking at the DOJ Firearms and Crimes Statistics for the last couple of years, I see little reason for all this massive gun buying, other than Fox News reports. Here.
Also, take a look at the bottom of the page. It validates what I say about criminals. Most of them are not going into places and legally buying guns. Look where they are getting them from.
Again, you are assuming the vast majority of criminals are enterprising. Quite to the contrary. The majority are lazy and shiftless. They would rather not work and get over every time. Having had extensive dealings with these folks, they would always choose easy money and little gratification over hard work and job satisfaction. That has been my experience with them. These people have tons of idle time which is usually filled with figuring out the least amount of resistance to working.
When you've had an opportuntity to work in a correctional setting for over two decades and actually hear their stories almost daily, one thing is constant. There will consistently be an effort to shirk and circumvent, or otherwise have others take care of their responsibilities. This extends to their own children; if someone else can raise them, all the better. There is no way they'd look at the materials available and start pressing ammo. The average criminal is not some mastermind with plans. Most of their crimes are committed spur of the moment, while they are under the influence of something, or just a crime of opportunity involving no planning whatsoever. I doubt they would have been making ammo just for a carjack or robbery. Usually its just "There's a car, I need a ride. Get out of the car." or some other senseless reason to gain something free and easy. Not sure what type of criminals you've dealt with in the past, but most of them think like that.
You say I give them too little credit by "greatly" underestimating people. I believe you have not had enough experience with the type of people you are discussing (perhaps you've watched news footage and gained your perspective) and say you give them far too much credit. But then again, you have probably worked in law enforcement for as long as I had, but in a different capacity.
You have far more to fear from a supremist group in Idaho, Kentucky, Wyoming or Georgia in the United States buying weapons for their paramilitary "training compounds" than just about any common criminal that has been incarcerated. And 3/4ths of these supremists are the ones buying up all the ammo and assault rifles. I have no idea why we went halfway around the world to find terrorists in caves, when they have already been in the United States since the turn of the century with post office boxes and addresses.
Actually, looking at the DOJ Firearms and Crimes Statistics for the last couple of years, I see little reason for all this massive gun buying, other than Fox News reports. Here.
Also, take a look at the bottom of the page. It validates what I say about criminals. Most of them are not going into places and legally buying guns. Look where they are getting them from.
Posts like these are the gold nuggets that keep me coming back to these forums.
I can't really add much to this, I think Popinjay left little in terms of holes I'd be able to fill.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
50ish bucks for a cheap press, maybe another 50 for materials and 30ish minutes reading up or being taught ( tops) and a person can reload their own rounds. It is not rocket science. Primar, brass, propellant, bullet.
Boring makes this point pointless. Is it really all that boring to someone who is trying to get away with something illegal. You greatly under estimate people.
Locking something up isn't foolproof it is just a deterrent. I agree the bulk of peoples weapons should be locked up. However it is just one measure in a number of measures a person can use to help secure their weapons.
Again, you are assuming the vast majority of criminals are enterprising. Quite to the contrary. The majority are lazy and shiftless. They would rather not work and get over every time. Having had extensive dealings with these folks, they would always choose easy money and little gratification over hard work and job satisfaction. That has been my experience with them. These people have tons of idle time which is usually filled with figuring out the least amount of resistance to working.
When you've had an opportuntity to work in a correctional setting for over two decades and actually hear their stories almost daily, one thing is constant. There will consistently be an effort to shirk and circumvent, or otherwise have others take care of their responsibilities. This extends to their own children; if someone else can raise them, all the better. There is no way they'd look at the materials available and start pressing ammo. The average criminal is not some mastermind with plans. Most of their crimes are committed spur of the moment, while they are under the influence of something, or just a crime of opportunity involving no planning whatsoever. I doubt they would have been making ammo just for a carjack or robbery. Usually its just "There's a car, I need a ride. Get out of the car." or some other senseless reason to gain something free and easy. Not sure what type of criminals you've dealt with in the past, but most of them think like that.
You say I give them too little credit by "greatly" underestimating people. I believe you have not had enough experience with the type of people you are discussing (perhaps you've watched news footage and gained your perspective) and say you give them far too much credit. But then again, you have probably worked in law enforcement for as long as I had, but in a different capacity.
You have far more to fear from a supremist group in Idaho, Kentucky, Wyoming or Georgia in the United States buying weapons for their paramilitary "training compounds" than just about any common criminal that has been incarcerated. And 3/4ths of these supremists are the ones buying up all the ammo and assault rifles. I have no idea why we went halfway around the world to find terrorists in caves, when they have already been in the United States since the turn of the century with post office boxes and addresses.
Actually, looking at the DOJ Firearms and Crimes Statistics for the last couple of years, I see little reason for all this massive gun buying, other than Fox News reports. Here.
Also, take a look at the bottom of the page. It validates what I say about criminals. Most of them are not going into places and legally buying guns. Look where they are getting them from.
So how did you go from criminals are to lazy to circumvent serials on ammunition (which is what my post was responding to), to this rant that criminals are to lazy, fat, or unintelligent to do anything for themselves? If anything you said held merrit about them being to lazy and fat, crime wouldn't be an issue to begin with.
So how did you go from criminals are to lazy to circumvent serials on ammunition (which is what my post was responding to), to this rant that criminals are to lazy, fat, or unintelligent to do anything for themselves? If anything you said held merrit about them being to lazy and fat, crime wouldn't be an issue to begin with.
Wha?
I said they are too lazy to do the WORK of it. If they can find someone to do it FOR them, they'll take it. Which is why they buy ammo now.
I didn't say they were too lazy to try and THINK of some plan to get the ammo. They simply won't make it. They'd probably just buy it black market off someone else. Which is how they get their guns mainly in the first place.
Info from the US DOJ:
Offenders
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun. On average, State inmates possessing a firearm received sentences of 18 years, while those without a weapon had an average sentence of 12 years. Among prisoners carrying a firearm during their crime, 40% of State inmates and 56% of Federal inmates received a sentence enhancement because of the firearm.
Someone would have to be seriously ignorant about the "average" criminal if they think they'd be crimping ammo rounds. Check the average confiscated gun and you'll see that it's a nasty mess inside with green and black gunk, because these lazy guys don't either know HOW to clean them, or couldn't be bothered with actually doing it. And these guys are going to make ammo?
You need to get out of the country more and visit the city.
So how did you go from criminals are to lazy to circumvent serials on ammunition (which is what my post was responding to), to this rant that criminals are to lazy, fat, or unintelligent to do anything for themselves? If anything you said held merrit about them being to lazy and fat, crime wouldn't be an issue to begin with.
Wha?
I said they are too lazy to do the WORK of it. If they can find someone to do it FOR them, they'll take it. Which is why they buy ammo now.
I didn't say they were too lazy to try and THINK of some plan to get the ammo. They simply won't make it. They'd probably just buy it black market off someone else. Which is how they get their guns mainly in the first place.
Info from the US DOJ:
Offenders
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
During the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun.
On average, State inmates possessing a firearm received sentences of 18 years, while those without a weapon had an average sentence of 12 years.
Among prisoners carrying a firearm during their crime, 40% of State inmates and 56% of Federal inmates received a sentence enhancement because of the firearm.
Someone would have to be seriously ignorant about the "average" criminal if they think they'd be crimping ammo rounds. Check the average confiscated gun and you'll see that it's a nasty mess inside with green and black gunk, because these lazy guys don't either know HOW to clean them, or couldn't be bothered with actually doing it. And these guys are going to make ammo?
You need to get out of the country more and visit the city.
I know exactly what you said. You expect someone to take what you said in that post seriously? You are using poor generalizations as the reason these people wouldn't be able to do something. You used the words lazy, dumb, retarded, A.D.D. afflicted (<-- ?!?! lol ).
Quote: "Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern." End Quote
Why can't they reload there rounds. Dumber and lazier? What could I possibly see wrong with your reasoning about a persons abilities with a generalization like that. I don't know maybe the fact that reloading is pretty idiot proof. All you need to know is type of the ammunition you are loading. The rest of the process is as simple as cooking from a recipe.
You use this reasoning in 2 of the 3 points you made in that post alone.
Quote: "Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue." End Quote
This time it is A.D.D. afflicted (Like that has anything to do with a persons abilities. Considering some people will have you believe the majority of the populace is A.D.D.), slightly retarded, and lazy. The next part I found really amusing! Which is that. Coming from a person who just suggested that being A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded, and lazy would be the factors that would stop someone from filing off serials, you are saying that only a hitman (!LoL!) might be interrested in doing such a thing as filing off serials from rounds.
You used this same type of reasoning in the reply to my reply. Which I didn't really respond too since its the same garbage again. It's also taken me a little while to figure out how to point out your generalizations (stupid ones at that) without being to harsh. I think everyone gets the picture that you think most criminals are down right handicapped,stupid, or lazy at this point. But it doesn't automatically rule out their abilities to do something as straight forward like reloading or filing off serials. It is no harder than cooking from a recipe, as I already mentioned earlier in this post.
In regards to the current post you made.
From the source you Quoted
a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
End Quote
I can't think of a better environment for anonymously loaded ammunition to thrive in.
Where did I use a generalizationlike "average" or any for that matter. I never generalized any group of people here. I am saying criminals (people you know) "could" and that it's not that bloody hard to load ammunition. Know the type, get the correct dye and the rest is childs play. If they don't want to load it, I am sure there is someone who would accommodate and it will probably be cheaper than market price to boot. Not only being cheaper but being anonymously bought on top of that.
Me being from T.N. or living in the "sticks" (If I did) has to with what again? Or are you simply trying to imply that your superior education is the product that we all should try to achieve. Only thing I have gotten from your posts is broad generalizations equal a group of peoples inabilities to do something.
I know exactly what you said. You expect someone to take what you said in that post seriously? You are using poor generalizations as the reason these people wouldn't be able to do something. You used the words lazy, dumb, retarded, A.D.D. afflicted (<-- ?!?! lol ). Quote: "Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern." End Quote Why can't they reload there rounds. Dumber and lazier? What could I possibly see wrong with your reasoning about a persons abilities with a generalization like that. I don't know maybe the fact that reloading is pretty idiot proof. All you need to know is type of the ammunition you are loading. The rest of the process is as simple as cooking from a recipe. You use this reasoning in 2 of the 3 points you made in that post alone. Quote: "Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue." End Quote
This time it is A.D.D. afflicted (Like that has anything to do with a persons abilities. Considering some people will have you believe the majority of the populace is A.D.D.), slightly retarded, and lazy. The next part I found really amusing! Which is that. Coming from a person who just suggested that being A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded, and lazy would be the factors that would stop someone from filing off serials, you are saying that only a hitman (!LoL!) might be interrested in doing such a thing as filing off serials from rounds. You used this same type of reasoning in the reply to my reply. Which I didn't really respond too since its the same garbage again. It's also taken me a little while to figure out how to point out your generalizations (stupid ones at that) without being to harsh. I think everyone gets the picture that you think most criminals are down right handicapped,stupid, or lazy at this point. But it doesn't automatically rule out their abilities to do something as straight forward like reloading or filing off serials. It is no harder than cooking from a recipe, as I already mentioned earlier in this post. In regards to the current post you made.
From the source you Quoted a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% End Quote
I can't think of a better environment for anonymously loaded ammunition to thrive in. Where did I use a generalizationlike "average" or any for that matter. I never generalized any group of people here. I am saying criminals (people you know) "could" and that it's not that bloody hard to load ammunition. Know the type, get the correct dye and the rest is childs play. If they don't want to load it, I am sure there is someone who would accommodate and it will probably be cheaper than market price to boot. Not only being cheaper but being anonymously bought on top of that.
Me being from T.N. or living in the "sticks" (If I did) has to with what again? Or are you simply trying to imply that your superior education is the product that we all should try to achieve. Only thing I have gotten from your posts is broad generalizations equal a group of peoples inabilities to do something.
I think you are still giving too much credit to the gun knowledge of criminals. A gun to them is something you squeeze and bullets come out. That aside its a black box.
Being from the "sticks" has a LOT to do with it. When you live in the sticks all your life your exposure to the criminals people are discussing is much more minimal.
A hitman would find a way to get a totally unmarked gun no matter what system you have, its pointless to argue that. What people here are saying is that you can help deal with guns being used by petty criminals. A guy who robs a 7-11 doesn't think ahead about the trail he will lead behind. Hes hungry, probably drunk/stoned, has litte/no money and needs money so he takes his gun and he goes to 7-11.
In this case the easiest thing for him to do would be to grab the nearest bullets serialized or not, and go. Hes in no mental state to go track down an underground market for bullets. Pay a premium for the bullets. Then go rob the 711. Hes going to goto walmart, grab a box, rob 7-11, but his booze or drug. You don't get into this position by being a rational methodical person.
Your not even bothering to try to see the issues being presented Jaybirdz, your simply blindly defending your own beleifs in the fear of being wrong. His arguements are valid, I assure you. You are appear more interested in being right, then actually reading, and learning. Hes expressed some experience in the issue and given you some logically sound arguements, but all you say is your stupid/wrong. This not how you argue or debate, thats how you look silly on the internet.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Me being from T.N. or living in the "sticks" (If I did) has to with what again? Or are you simply trying to imply that your superior education is the product that we all should try to achieve. Only thing I have gotten from your posts is broad generalizations equal a group of peoples inabilities to do something.
Sorry, I'm not saying you are from the sticks, or are somehow less intelligent. I did not know you were from Tennesse (I assume T.N.) until you just posted it. I don't know where you are from obviously. The only thing I know for sure is where you aren't from. The way you talk about these guys shows you just do not have enough exposure to their inner thinkings and habits. You probably think while incarcerated, they think about going straight, going home and getting fixed up, too. Some do, most don't.
The majority of criminals are not some Lex Luthor type. Again, they just do crimes mostly without major planning involved. Squeezing out your own rounds requires planning; where to keep the materials, how much powder to put in loads so you don't blow yourself up, how to store powder, space considerations, buying casings... heck, the way you talking about home loads I'm sure you know ALL these issues yourself.
What I am trying to show you is that this is no light enterprise and the "average" criminal will not be engaging in it. I'm sure they would move to something else altogether to commit crimes with.. knives, mace, pepper spray, stunguns, tasers, PR24s, whatever. But most aren't going to do what you keep giving them all this gumption about.
EDIT: Oh, and about you laughing about me pointing out "mentally handicapped" and retarded criminals? Here you go.Or this one.I'm not sure where you get your "real life" experience with criminals. I can only guess it's Fox News, but it doesn't appear to be from a professional standpoint.
I think you are still giving too much credit to the gun knowledge of criminals. A gun to them is something you squeeze and bullets come out. That aside its a black box.
Being from the "sticks" has a LOT to do with it. When you live in the sticks all your life your exposure to the criminals people are discussing is much more minimal.
A hitman would find a way to get a totally unmarked gun no matter what system you have, its pointless to argue that. What people here are saying is that you can help deal with guns being used by petty criminals. A guy who robs a 7-11 doesn't think ahead about the trail he will lead behind. Hes hungry, probably drunk/stoned, has litte/no money and needs money so he takes his gun and he goes to 7-11.
In this case the easiest thing for him to do would be to grab the nearest bullets serialized or not, and go. Hes in no mental state to go track down an underground market for bullets. Pay a premium for the bullets. Then go rob the 711. Hes going to goto walmart, grab a box, rob 7-11, but his booze or drug. You don't get into this position by being a rational methodical person.
Your not even bothering to try to see the issues being presented Jaybirdz, your simply blindly defending your own beleifs in the fear of being wrong. His arguements are valid, I assure you. You are appear more interested in being right, then actually reading, and learning. Hes expressed some experience in the issue and given you some logically sound arguements, but all you say is your stupid/wrong. This not how you argue or debate, thats how you look silly on the internet.
In regards to the hitman remark. I thought his train of thought was amusing, that is it. Jumping from criminals being handicapped in some form to a hitman. Genius! Anyway, I'm not oblivious to the issue I'm just saying in not so many words (or in a round about jerkish kind of way). If you are going to try and sell people on something like serials (of whatever form), do not sit there and tell people it will work because criminals are too lazy, dumb,retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted. Bullshit plain and simple. B. U. L. L. S. H. I. T. If that was the case crime wouldn't be anywhere near the issue it is today.
As far as me giving them to much credit. Maybe I am, or maybe I'm not. But again when someone says serials will work because criminals are to lazy, dumb, retarded, or A.D.D. afflicted to circumvent it, rubbish. In response to that I am most definately am not giving them to much credit.
So in honesty I am not ignoring anything. I just saw poor reasoning and thought to myself this really can't be the persons' reasons as to why serials (of whatever form) will work.
But again when someone says serials will work because criminals are to lazy, dumb, retarded, or A.D.D. afflicted to circumvent it, rubbish. In response to that I am most definately am not giving them to much credit.
Thanks for ignoring the FEDERAL statistics from the DOJ on "mentally handicapped" criminals in our jails. You are really cherrypicking what you want to respond to. Can't say I'm surprised.
And anytime you'd like to put words in my mouth like above... I prefer James Bamford. Please read his work and then you can say I said something I didn't write or suggest.
Never have I said serial will stop criminals from doing anything. But keep going, I'm sure you'll be right about something in this thread sooner or later with enough guesses.
But again when someone says serials will work because criminals are to lazy, dumb, retarded, or A.D.D. afflicted to circumvent it, rubbish. In response to that I am most definately am not giving them to much credit.
Thought I'd help you out-
Posted by popinjay:
Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue.
Same post-
Posted by popinjay:
I don't believe something like serialization is an end-all to gun crime. I do believe that it can be used with other ideas to help make the country safer overall.
What does that link have to do with a persons ability to do a task like reloading ammunition? About the closest that document comes to talking about the mental capacity and tasks is on the subject of employment. I would have sworn that the numbers I was about to read would be abysmal at best from your arguments thus far on why criminals couldn't load or make their own ammunition.
The little quote chains ending doesn't erase the comments that were made prior. Your posts are a great example as to why I would never vote for a person who supported something like serials on ammunition or on the matter itself if I was ever given an option too. I don't see anything wrong with the idea itself, it is people that make careless statements such as yours that keep trying to sell a decent idea in a stupid manner.
Then when it doesn't have the expected results because it was based on a belief like yours which is "they are to stupid and / or mentally ill to work around it", it's then taken even farther and farther and farther until people don't have any rights on the matter anymore.
For what exactly do you need a rambo arsenal in your basement?
You americans are hilarious.
Actually, the second amendment exists primarily as a means of self defense and as a potential counter to a tyrannical government. Think about it, in a society where its citizens are not allowed to possess firearms, what measure do they have against a govt that oppresses its people?
Seriously?
You think you can actually do anything against a highly trained marine corps if only you had a rifle in your basement?
What does that link have to do with a persons ability to do a task like reloading ammunition? About the closest that document comes to talking about the mental capacity and tasks is on the subject of employment.
I would have sworn that the numbers I was about to read would be abysmal at best from your arguments thus far on why criminals couldn't load or make their own ammunition.
I guess I'll have to say you are right...
Mental retardation and mental illness in its many forms have absolutely nothing to do with a person's ability to make ammunition because its so easy. Yep, anyone can make ammo regardless of level of mental illness or attention span. I really can see the nation's criminals being able to do this with the ease you have been suggesting all throughout this post without any proof whatsoever. /insanity off.
You keep going off the subject and arguing the stupid point. Even if they could make their own ammo, they wouldn't, which is my point to you. So the price of ammo a box goes from $20 to $100 overnight and all the rounds are now etched with serials. Big deal. Criminals would STILL buy it someplace and there would always be someone to illegally make it if stores suddenly couldn't sell it anymore due to cost increases. It would be expensive, but since they are robbing and stealing to fund their robbing and stealing in the first place, it's not like it blows their budgeting spreadsheet through the window, lol. I simply have no idea why you don't realize this. They would not, and in most cases, cannot make their own ammunition.
The average criminal wouldn't carry any more ammunition on them than the average cop, which is one full magazine in the weapon and two spare magazines. Cops don't ride around with more than that and boxes of ammo in the trunk. 33 handgun rounds probably max not counting shotguns/rifles (look at a cop the next time one gets out of the car). Criminals would have FAR less than that, usually one full round in the weapon and MAYBE another clip.. but usually not. Why would they buy something to make tons of ammo and go through all that nonsense for what they do? One box of 50 holds them for a LONG time.
abys·mal
Pronunciation: ?-?biz-m?l, a- Function: adjective Date: circa 1656 1 a: having immense or fathomless extension downward, backward, or inward <an abysmal cliff> b: immeasurably great : profound <abysmal ignorance> c: immeasurably low or wretched <abysmal living conditions of the poor>
Hmm.. you don't think the linked info on numbers regarding the rise in mental illness cases amongst our nation's prisons are "abysmal"? I'm not sure why you find numbers like below so cheery and optimistic. I figured you weren't sure of that adjective abysmal, so I put it here to see if you think it was actually the correct one to use.
At midyear 2005 more than half of all prison and jail inmates had a mental health problem, including 705,600 inmates in State prisons, 78,800 in Federal prisons, and 479,900 in local jails.
These estimates represented 56% of State prisoners, 45% of Federal prisoners, and 64% of jail inmates. The findings in this report were based on data from personal interviews with State and Federal prisoners in 2004 and local jail inmates in 2002.
If you don't find those recent statistics "abysmal", you could put Anthony Robbins out of business.
I swear the more I read what you say, I'm convinced you live on some farm and just get everything from Fox News and the internet. While that's nothing to be ashamed of, it leaves you woefully unable to back any points properly, because it's something you READ or HEARD one time, then you rehash someone else's point without understanding how they got their in the first place.
You have provided nothing remotely close to a fact or link this entire time and your whole arguments have been based on opinions. I think I'll stop now, because to present you with various information is useless because it just doesn't stack up to what's inside your head, no matter what you read or skim through.
Comments
It seems as you are projecting your potential actions to the whole of American society. Just because you think so negatively of yourself does not mean the population as a majority would react such as you. However, I would agree with you to a point if that majority you speak of is liberals. They are the ones who would lie face down and pretend nothing happened.
Are you f'ing serious? Stupidity has no bounds, ha ha......like such a law would ever exist!
Before you get so smug, the thing people are worried about is an increase in the taxation of bullets, which is why they are stocking up now before they are more expensive.
The reason is because Obama proposed such a tax increase when he was a senator, except now he is in a better position to get it pushed through.
Cactus,
It's not the tax on bullets what hunters and people who just like to target shoot are worried about. Its the serialization of the ammo. My God...read this! This is absolutely crazy.
Comments? Unbelievable. What is this great country coming to?
LINK
It is about the serialization and there really is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong with trying to track ammo with distinguishing features so that crimes may be solved and more data and information can be collected about firearms? Purchasing and sales could be monitored much more like if its being sold here or to Mexican drug lords.
Tracking data and something as important as this presents a viable alternative to guessworks and "he said, she said" arguments. Informational gathering purposes of all types are needed rather than just ammo floating around everywhere. It doesn't matter that ammo makers will have to spend more money on the technology and pass it on to the consumer. That's like saying its stupid to have emissions on vehicles because or standards on building materials because they would go out of business trying to comply with laws for public safety. If you like the sport thats well and good, but you have to understand costs associated with certain things go up as attitudes change. And something like firearms should not be a "cheap" and inexpensive thing that anyone can get into. It's not like playing checkers, its serious business and a public safety matter. But yet any wahoo can walk into Walmart or similar places and pay very little for a box of 9mm Luger or .40 rounds. This really is madness considering the century we live in.
Forgive me if I couldn't take half of those reasons from your link seriously (QQing about money half the page) as anything other than propaganda from the "National Shooting Sports Foundation" who has Washington lobbyists. Try links from more neutral, academic sites like this to bolster your argument rather than groups that stand to gain from the issue like your biased linkage. Get some academia to support your positions with facts, data and arguments other than "It's gonna cost you more to buy bullets".
It's time we got more accurate statitics on this dangerous slice of Americana and there is no reason the U.S. taxpayers should have to foot this bill. Better to pass the cost onto the assault rifle makers and ammo makers themselves, who provide little to no data worth anything and are obviously are not concerned about the country's ills and would prefer people stay in the dark regarding safety figures, while they improve their sales figures.
"TO MICHAEL!"
What would keep criminals from molding their own bullets to use, bypassing the tracking? What would keep the criminals from stealing your ammo and using it in a crime?
What would keep the criminals from altering the rounds purchased so they can’t be traced? This once again is a piece of legislation that puts the burden on the law abiding citizen by making legal gun owners pay the price for criminals!
These technology and tracking costs will be passed on to the legal gun owner when they purchase encoded ammo. It is also another way of a back door gun registry without registering the gun, they just register your ammo.
I agree criminals could do their own loads and reloads. You can buy loading supplies and powder over the internet or at a local supply shop. Criminals can also steal your ammo. They also could alter rounds, just like they alter gun restristrations already etched into current weapons. Valid points.
Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern.
Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue.
Theft: Yep, they can steal your ammo. But wait.. aren't 'responsible gun owners' supposed to keep ammo and firearms under lock and key? I know you do based on how well you post; you seem quite responsible and I'd wager you don't leave ammo around unlocked. And aren't they liable to report when crimes like this occur or face prosecution? If they steal your ammo out of a well locked area, they are good criminals and the law says "Oh well". If they steal your ammo from under your bed or off your unlock closet shelf, that person is an idiot and possibly has to face the law or private lawsuits for being negligent if their unreported weapons or ammo was unsecured.
I don't believe something like serialization is an end-all to gun crime. I do believe that it can be used with other ideas to help make the country safer overall.
"TO MICHAEL!"
All the gun owners I know, their guns and ammo is the most "protected/secure" thing in the house. Inside a locked case, with another locked case(this one actually metal), and then the ammo itself in it's own locked case often times in a seperate room. Anything less is almost asking for trouble as unlikely as it is.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
Actually, the second amendment exists primarily as a means of self defense and as a potential counter to a tyrannical government. Think about it, in a society where its citizens are not allowed to possess firearms, what measure do they have against a govt that oppresses its people?
Ha! That is hilarious. I hate to break this to you Zind, but the fat, docile majority of America would lay down and die if the government decided to oppress it. The only hope of this nation would be if the military itself actually decided to NOT follow the government's orders, and we all know how good at decision making any military member is *grins*.
Hey boy, there are things in life you do not insult. Volunteers ready to give their life to uphold your freedom are not one of them. Think before you post next time.
When a piscating wizard floods every thread I can understand why people leave.
We already have a militia. It's called the National Guard and Air National Guard. They'll let anyone play with assault rifles all they like several times a year.
Concerned citizens can sign up here if they like. Unless you guys are busy waiting for SWTOR or Earthrise.
Militia = Ordinary citizens not paid a regular salary or committed to a length of service.
When a piscating wizard floods every thread I can understand why people leave.
Sure, if you use just ONE definition. There are a few around. And btw, it does not mention anything about unpaid "salary" or no pay. A militia can be paid and they usually are/were.
Colonials were paid militias against the British simply due to the cost of being away from their farms and businesses. You really think most of them fought for free, huh? Lol. Most would have stayed subjects under the British if there was no pay because even though they'd be taxed, they'd have their land still. With no pay, how does a farmer keep his family alive without fighting a war? One example from states. Read the contents.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Perhaps you confuse your personal situation/sentiment with the rest of America? I think you may be projecting a bit.
Not even going to argue about the military decision making, you obviously haven't a clue what you are talking about. To so ignorantly lump the entire military and all its members into one statement. Generalizations make life easier don't they?
Why, personal situation is a rather amusing generalization now isn't it? Projecting would only work if I cared what happened to this nation. If the government turned, I would fight my way out of the country and move. This place is not worth my life.
However, you all know as well as I do that most Americans are fairly blind (figuratively), ignorant, and lazy. Most of you won't admit to it, but that is just blind patriotism for you.
As for the military, from serving in the Air Force and watching well adjusted people get turned into mindless drones, I have no doubt their capacity for making decisions is fairly low. That is the Air Force too, the branch with the highest intellectual requirement, or at least it was when I was 18.
As for Sargoth, you mentioning that they are volunteers is just plain dumb. Let's see how many people would volunteer into our military if we took out all pay and only left their clothing, food, and housing stipends.
Seriously, a lot of you act like the enlisted force is the minority, and the officer corps are the majority....
My blog is a continuing story of what MMO's should be like.
I agree criminals could do their own loads and reloads. You can buy loading supplies and powder over the internet or at a local supply shop. Criminals can also steal your ammo. They also could alter rounds, just like they alter gun restristrations already etched into current weapons. Valid points.
Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern.
50ish bucks for a cheap press, maybe another 50 for materials and 30ish minutes reading up or being taught ( tops) and a person can reload their own rounds. It is not rocket science. Primar, brass, propellant, bullet.
Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue.
Boring makes this point pointless. Is it really all that boring to someone who is trying to get away with something illegal. You greatly under estimate people.
Theft: Yep, they can steal your ammo. But wait.. aren't 'responsible gun owners' supposed to keep ammo and firearms under lock and key? I know you do based on how well you post; you seem quite responsible and I'd wager you don't leave ammo around unlocked. And aren't they liable to report when crimes like this occur or face prosecution? If they steal your ammo out of a well locked area, they are good criminals and the law says "Oh well". If they steal your ammo from under your bed or off your unlock closet shelf, that person is an idiot and possibly has to face the law or private lawsuits for being negligent if their unreported weapons or ammo was unsecured.
Locking something up isn't foolproof it is just a deterrent. I agree the bulk of peoples weapons should be locked up. However it is just one measure in a number of measures a person can use to help secure their weapons.
I don't believe something like serialization is an end-all to gun crime. I do believe that it can be used with other ideas to help make the country safer overall.
Again, you are assuming the vast majority of criminals are enterprising. Quite to the contrary. The majority are lazy and shiftless. They would rather not work and get over every time. Having had extensive dealings with these folks, they would always choose easy money and little gratification over hard work and job satisfaction. That has been my experience with them. These people have tons of idle time which is usually filled with figuring out the least amount of resistance to working.
When you've had an opportuntity to work in a correctional setting for over two decades and actually hear their stories almost daily, one thing is constant. There will consistently be an effort to shirk and circumvent, or otherwise have others take care of their responsibilities. This extends to their own children; if someone else can raise them, all the better. There is no way they'd look at the materials available and start pressing ammo. The average criminal is not some mastermind with plans. Most of their crimes are committed spur of the moment, while they are under the influence of something, or just a crime of opportunity involving no planning whatsoever. I doubt they would have been making ammo just for a carjack or robbery. Usually its just "There's a car, I need a ride. Get out of the car." or some other senseless reason to gain something free and easy. Not sure what type of criminals you've dealt with in the past, but most of them think like that.
You say I give them too little credit by "greatly" underestimating people. I believe you have not had enough experience with the type of people you are discussing (perhaps you've watched news footage and gained your perspective) and say you give them far too much credit. But then again, you have probably worked in law enforcement for as long as I had, but in a different capacity.
You have far more to fear from a supremist group in Idaho, Kentucky, Wyoming or Georgia in the United States buying weapons for their paramilitary "training compounds" than just about any common criminal that has been incarcerated. And 3/4ths of these supremists are the ones buying up all the ammo and assault rifles. I have no idea why we went halfway around the world to find terrorists in caves, when they have already been in the United States since the turn of the century with post office boxes and addresses.
Actually, looking at the DOJ Firearms and Crimes Statistics for the last couple of years, I see little reason for all this massive gun buying, other than Fox News reports. Here.
Also, take a look at the bottom of the page. It validates what I say about criminals. Most of them are not going into places and legally buying guns. Look where they are getting them from.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Posts like these are the gold nuggets that keep me coming back to these forums.
I can't really add much to this, I think Popinjay left little in terms of holes I'd be able to fill.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Again, you are assuming the vast majority of criminals are enterprising. Quite to the contrary. The majority are lazy and shiftless. They would rather not work and get over every time. Having had extensive dealings with these folks, they would always choose easy money and little gratification over hard work and job satisfaction. That has been my experience with them. These people have tons of idle time which is usually filled with figuring out the least amount of resistance to working.
When you've had an opportuntity to work in a correctional setting for over two decades and actually hear their stories almost daily, one thing is constant. There will consistently be an effort to shirk and circumvent, or otherwise have others take care of their responsibilities. This extends to their own children; if someone else can raise them, all the better. There is no way they'd look at the materials available and start pressing ammo. The average criminal is not some mastermind with plans. Most of their crimes are committed spur of the moment, while they are under the influence of something, or just a crime of opportunity involving no planning whatsoever. I doubt they would have been making ammo just for a carjack or robbery. Usually its just "There's a car, I need a ride. Get out of the car." or some other senseless reason to gain something free and easy. Not sure what type of criminals you've dealt with in the past, but most of them think like that.
You say I give them too little credit by "greatly" underestimating people. I believe you have not had enough experience with the type of people you are discussing (perhaps you've watched news footage and gained your perspective) and say you give them far too much credit. But then again, you have probably worked in law enforcement for as long as I had, but in a different capacity.
You have far more to fear from a supremist group in Idaho, Kentucky, Wyoming or Georgia in the United States buying weapons for their paramilitary "training compounds" than just about any common criminal that has been incarcerated. And 3/4ths of these supremists are the ones buying up all the ammo and assault rifles. I have no idea why we went halfway around the world to find terrorists in caves, when they have already been in the United States since the turn of the century with post office boxes and addresses.
Actually, looking at the DOJ Firearms and Crimes Statistics for the last couple of years, I see little reason for all this massive gun buying, other than Fox News reports. Here.
Also, take a look at the bottom of the page. It validates what I say about criminals. Most of them are not going into places and legally buying guns. Look where they are getting them from.
So how did you go from criminals are to lazy to circumvent serials on ammunition (which is what my post was responding to), to this rant that criminals are to lazy, fat, or unintelligent to do anything for themselves? If anything you said held merrit about them being to lazy and fat, crime wouldn't be an issue to begin with.
Wha?
I said they are too lazy to do the WORK of it. If they can find someone to do it FOR them, they'll take it. Which is why they buy ammo now.
I didn't say they were too lazy to try and THINK of some plan to get the ammo. They simply won't make it. They'd probably just buy it black market off someone else. Which is how they get their guns mainly in the first place.
Someone would have to be seriously ignorant about the "average" criminal if they think they'd be crimping ammo rounds. Check the average confiscated gun and you'll see that it's a nasty mess inside with green and black gunk, because these lazy guys don't either know HOW to clean them, or couldn't be bothered with actually doing it. And these guys are going to make ammo?
You need to get out of the country more and visit the city.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Wha?
I said they are too lazy to do the WORK of it. If they can find someone to do it FOR them, they'll take it. Which is why they buy ammo now.
I didn't say they were too lazy to try and THINK of some plan to get the ammo. They simply won't make it. They'd probably just buy it black market off someone else. Which is how they get their guns mainly in the first place.
Someone would have to be seriously ignorant about the "average" criminal if they think they'd be crimping ammo rounds. Check the average confiscated gun and you'll see that it's a nasty mess inside with green and black gunk, because these lazy guys don't either know HOW to clean them, or couldn't be bothered with actually doing it. And these guys are going to make ammo?
You need to get out of the country more and visit the city.
I know exactly what you said. You expect someone to take what you said in that post seriously? You are using poor generalizations as the reason these people wouldn't be able to do something. You used the words lazy, dumb, retarded, A.D.D. afflicted (<-- ?!?! lol ).
Quote: "Reloads: The average person has no idea how to reload. The average criminal is dumber and lazier than the average person, or they would be making money legitimately somehow already on some job. These guys would not be able to mass produce their own rounds worth anything and half of them would misfire or blow themselves up in some way. Heck, most law abiding citizens have no idea about loads. This is a SMALL concern." End Quote
Why can't they reload there rounds. Dumber and lazier? What could I possibly see wrong with your reasoning about a persons abilities with a generalization like that. I don't know maybe the fact that reloading is pretty idiot proof. All you need to know is type of the ammunition you are loading. The rest of the process is as simple as cooking from a recipe.
You use this reasoning in 2 of the 3 points you made in that post alone.
Quote: "Altering rounds. 50 bullets to a box. 20 boxes to a case. 1,000 rounds. You really think most criminals, who are already A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded and lazy are going to sit around and file off 1,000 rounds in a sitting? Maybe a hitman might. But the majority of criminals won't. Ironically, I bet they'd get a job before doing something as tedious and time consuming as this would be. I think this is an even smaller concern than the reload issue." End Quote
This time it is A.D.D. afflicted (Like that has anything to do with a persons abilities. Considering some people will have you believe the majority of the populace is A.D.D.), slightly retarded, and lazy. The next part I found really amusing! Which is that. Coming from a person who just suggested that being A.D.D. afflicted, slightly retarded, and lazy would be the factors that would stop someone from filing off serials, you are saying that only a hitman (!LoL!) might be interrested in doing such a thing as filing off serials from rounds.
You used this same type of reasoning in the reply to my reply. Which I didn't really respond too since its the same garbage again. It's also taken me a little while to figure out how to point out your generalizations (stupid ones at that) without being to harsh. I think everyone gets the picture that you think most criminals are down right handicapped,stupid, or lazy at this point. But it doesn't automatically rule out their abilities to do something as straight forward like reloading or filing off serials. It is no harder than cooking from a recipe, as I already mentioned earlier in this post.
In regards to the current post you made.
From the source you Quoted
a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
End Quote
I can't think of a better environment for anonymously loaded ammunition to thrive in.
Where did I use a generalizationlike "average" or any for that matter. I never generalized any group of people here. I am saying criminals (people you know) "could" and that it's not that bloody hard to load ammunition. Know the type, get the correct dye and the rest is childs play. If they don't want to load it, I am sure there is someone who would accommodate and it will probably be cheaper than market price to boot. Not only being cheaper but being anonymously bought on top of that.
Me being from T.N. or living in the "sticks" (If I did) has to with what again? Or are you simply trying to imply that your superior education is the product that we all should try to achieve. Only thing I have gotten from your posts is broad generalizations equal a group of peoples inabilities to do something.
I think you are still giving too much credit to the gun knowledge of criminals. A gun to them is something you squeeze and bullets come out. That aside its a black box.
Being from the "sticks" has a LOT to do with it. When you live in the sticks all your life your exposure to the criminals people are discussing is much more minimal.
A hitman would find a way to get a totally unmarked gun no matter what system you have, its pointless to argue that. What people here are saying is that you can help deal with guns being used by petty criminals. A guy who robs a 7-11 doesn't think ahead about the trail he will lead behind. Hes hungry, probably drunk/stoned, has litte/no money and needs money so he takes his gun and he goes to 7-11.
In this case the easiest thing for him to do would be to grab the nearest bullets serialized or not, and go. Hes in no mental state to go track down an underground market for bullets. Pay a premium for the bullets. Then go rob the 711. Hes going to goto walmart, grab a box, rob 7-11, but his booze or drug. You don't get into this position by being a rational methodical person.
Your not even bothering to try to see the issues being presented Jaybirdz, your simply blindly defending your own beleifs in the fear of being wrong. His arguements are valid, I assure you. You are appear more interested in being right, then actually reading, and learning. Hes expressed some experience in the issue and given you some logically sound arguements, but all you say is your stupid/wrong. This not how you argue or debate, thats how you look silly on the internet.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Sorry, I'm not saying you are from the sticks, or are somehow less intelligent. I did not know you were from Tennesse (I assume T.N.) until you just posted it. I don't know where you are from obviously. The only thing I know for sure is where you aren't from. The way you talk about these guys shows you just do not have enough exposure to their inner thinkings and habits. You probably think while incarcerated, they think about going straight, going home and getting fixed up, too. Some do, most don't.
The majority of criminals are not some Lex Luthor type. Again, they just do crimes mostly without major planning involved. Squeezing out your own rounds requires planning; where to keep the materials, how much powder to put in loads so you don't blow yourself up, how to store powder, space considerations, buying casings... heck, the way you talking about home loads I'm sure you know ALL these issues yourself.
What I am trying to show you is that this is no light enterprise and the "average" criminal will not be engaging in it. I'm sure they would move to something else altogether to commit crimes with.. knives, mace, pepper spray, stunguns, tasers, PR24s, whatever. But most aren't going to do what you keep giving them all this gumption about.
EDIT: Oh, and about you laughing about me pointing out "mentally handicapped" and retarded criminals? Here you go. Or this one.I'm not sure where you get your "real life" experience with criminals. I can only guess it's Fox News, but it doesn't appear to be from a professional standpoint.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I think you are still giving too much credit to the gun knowledge of criminals. A gun to them is something you squeeze and bullets come out. That aside its a black box.
Being from the "sticks" has a LOT to do with it. When you live in the sticks all your life your exposure to the criminals people are discussing is much more minimal.
A hitman would find a way to get a totally unmarked gun no matter what system you have, its pointless to argue that. What people here are saying is that you can help deal with guns being used by petty criminals. A guy who robs a 7-11 doesn't think ahead about the trail he will lead behind. Hes hungry, probably drunk/stoned, has litte/no money and needs money so he takes his gun and he goes to 7-11.
In this case the easiest thing for him to do would be to grab the nearest bullets serialized or not, and go. Hes in no mental state to go track down an underground market for bullets. Pay a premium for the bullets. Then go rob the 711. Hes going to goto walmart, grab a box, rob 7-11, but his booze or drug. You don't get into this position by being a rational methodical person.
Your not even bothering to try to see the issues being presented Jaybirdz, your simply blindly defending your own beleifs in the fear of being wrong. His arguements are valid, I assure you. You are appear more interested in being right, then actually reading, and learning. Hes expressed some experience in the issue and given you some logically sound arguements, but all you say is your stupid/wrong. This not how you argue or debate, thats how you look silly on the internet.
In regards to the hitman remark. I thought his train of thought was amusing, that is it. Jumping from criminals being handicapped in some form to a hitman. Genius! Anyway, I'm not oblivious to the issue I'm just saying in not so many words (or in a round about jerkish kind of way
). If you are going to try and sell people on something like serials (of whatever form), do not sit there and tell people it will work because criminals are too lazy, dumb,retarded, and A.D.D. afflicted. Bullshit plain and simple. B. U. L. L. S. H. I. T. If that was the case crime wouldn't be anywhere near the issue it is today.
As far as me giving them to much credit. Maybe I am, or maybe I'm not. But again when someone says serials will work because criminals are to lazy, dumb, retarded, or A.D.D. afflicted to circumvent it, rubbish. In response to that I am most definately am not giving them to much credit.
So in honesty I am not ignoring anything. I just saw poor reasoning and thought to myself this really can't be the persons' reasons as to why serials (of whatever form) will work.
Thanks for ignoring the FEDERAL statistics from the DOJ on "mentally handicapped" criminals in our jails. You are really cherrypicking what you want to respond to. Can't say I'm surprised.
And anytime you'd like to put words in my mouth like above... I prefer James Bamford. Please read his work and then you can say I said something I didn't write or suggest.
Never have I said serial will stop criminals from doing anything. But keep going, I'm sure you'll be right about something in this thread sooner or later with enough guesses.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Thought I'd help you out-
Same post-
And once again, since you keep ignoring facts-
Read it this time.
I would never call you a liar for misrepresenting my position. I prefer to let your own posts take care of that.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I looked, and then i laughed a little bit. Simply because the U.S. ships the weapons, doesn't give him the official NRA membership, lol.
Popinjay,
What does that link have to do with a persons ability to do a task like reloading ammunition? About the closest that document comes to talking about the mental capacity and tasks is on the subject of employment. I would have sworn that the numbers I was about to read would be abysmal at best from your arguments thus far on why criminals couldn't load or make their own ammunition.
The little quote chains ending doesn't erase the comments that were made prior. Your posts are a great example as to why I would never vote for a person who supported something like serials on ammunition or on the matter itself if I was ever given an option too. I don't see anything wrong with the idea itself, it is people that make careless statements such as yours that keep trying to sell a decent idea in a stupid manner.
Then when it doesn't have the expected results because it was based on a belief like yours which is "they are to stupid and / or mentally ill to work around it", it's then taken even farther and farther and farther until people don't have any rights on the matter anymore.
Actually, the second amendment exists primarily as a means of self defense and as a potential counter to a tyrannical government. Think about it, in a society where its citizens are not allowed to possess firearms, what measure do they have against a govt that oppresses its people?
Seriously?
You think you can actually do anything against a highly trained marine corps if only you had a rifle in your basement?
now thats funny.
I guess I'll have to say you are right...
Mental retardation and mental illness in its many forms have absolutely nothing to do with a person's ability to make ammunition because its so easy. Yep, anyone can make ammo regardless of level of mental illness or attention span. I really can see the nation's criminals being able to do this with the ease you have been suggesting all throughout this post without any proof whatsoever. /insanity off.
You keep going off the subject and arguing the stupid point. Even if they could make their own ammo, they wouldn't, which is my point to you. So the price of ammo a box goes from $20 to $100 overnight and all the rounds are now etched with serials. Big deal. Criminals would STILL buy it someplace and there would always be someone to illegally make it if stores suddenly couldn't sell it anymore due to cost increases. It would be expensive, but since they are robbing and stealing to fund their robbing and stealing in the first place, it's not like it blows their budgeting spreadsheet through the window, lol. I simply have no idea why you don't realize this. They would not, and in most cases, cannot make their own ammunition.
The average criminal wouldn't carry any more ammunition on them than the average cop, which is one full magazine in the weapon and two spare magazines. Cops don't ride around with more than that and boxes of ammo in the trunk. 33 handgun rounds probably max not counting shotguns/rifles (look at a cop the next time one gets out of the car). Criminals would have FAR less than that, usually one full round in the weapon and MAYBE another clip.. but usually not. Why would they buy something to make tons of ammo and go through all that nonsense for what they do? One box of 50 holds them for a LONG time.
If you don't find those recent statistics "abysmal", you could put Anthony Robbins out of business.Hmm.. you don't think the linked info on numbers regarding the rise in mental illness cases amongst our nation's prisons are "abysmal"? I'm not sure why you find numbers like below so cheery and optimistic. I figured you weren't sure of that adjective abysmal, so I put it here to see if you think it was actually the correct one to use.
I swear the more I read what you say, I'm convinced you live on some farm and just get everything from Fox News and the internet. While that's nothing to be ashamed of, it leaves you woefully unable to back any points properly, because it's something you READ or HEARD one time, then you rehash someone else's point without understanding how they got their in the first place.
You have provided nothing remotely close to a fact or link this entire time and your whole arguments have been based on opinions. I think I'll stop now, because to present you with various information is useless because it just doesn't stack up to what's inside your head, no matter what you read or skim through.
"TO MICHAEL!"