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TCoS should ditch its rootkit...
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You're wrong. Failed.
It means alot of the data is stored client-side.
Actually, he is right - the only reason to have something like game guard is because too much of the game is running client side. For an FPS that is not pay to play this is understandable btu for a pay to play MMO it is ridiculous, and that is the point I made way back in the beginning being that for a pay to play game to do this makes it really ridiculous.
so...point out to us which AC software is used by other MMOs these days.....
Those that are P2P....
Can even do better then that. F2P game Guild Wars that is heavily PVP based. No third party security software. I pvped heavily in that game and never heard about speedhacks, teleporthacks before I started to play other MMO's. No cheap cheating in GW.
But then, technically GW is brilliant in datamanagement.
lol...wow
I guess Darkfall is an anommally?
No...it's not...and you aren't as smart as you think.....Most MMOs are server side. But are still a target for hacks...explain that....
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
So WOW isn't properly designed then? Warden scans your computer for 3rd party programs. Those scans MIGHT be used in a malicious way at some point in the future.
DAOC used a program too as do other major named MMOs.
Many MMO's use similar programs so I guess they are all poorly designed in your opinion?
werd
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
There are issues with GameGuard regarding problems with other programs. Many of the problems have been solved or are in the process of being resolved.[1] Gameguard pppoe disconnection problem in Cabal is resolved using a router. Because of its method of actuation (very similar to a rootkit), it is criticized for being extremely invasive, often without knowledge of the end user. The software installs a device driver which is difficult to uninstall; even uninstalling the game will still leave some files hidden on the system, but it stays inactive without the game. In recent versions (revision 1007 and up), GameGuard fails to halt when the game ends, so GameGuard continues to use computer resources and inject code into processes. This is often unknown to the end-user, as GameGuard masks its CPU usage by hooking Windows system querying APIs. Most anti-virus vendors currently exclude nProtect GameGuard from their detection databases due to it being commercial software, however this was initially not the case, leading to system crashes as both the Antivirus and GameGuard attempted to override each other.
Many hackers attempt to find ways to compromise GameGuard in new ways. For example, it has been said that GameGuard can still be compromised by using modified game client files, modified versions of Cheat Engine coupled with server emulation utilities. nProtect GameGuard constantly updates itself and provides new protection against the latest threats. Even though it boasts such effectiveness, in truth hackers can break or bypass GameGuard faster than it gets updated, therefore rendering the system quite useless. Especially from the number of sites out there utilizing 'bot' programs to flood the game to farm the ingame currency & rare items, which are then sold for real money. Such sites and 'bots' have been known to be up and running again, having bypassed GameGuard, within an hour of its latest update.
On some games such as MapleStory, the game itself does a hash check of the GameGuard revision currently running and will exit if it does not match the hash on the server side.[citation needed] This is a security measure from nProtect GameGuard to ensure that GameGuard has not been hacked and nProtect GameGuard should update to the latest version under normal circumstances.
GameGuard is currently not compatible with Windows 7 Build 7000 - it ends up in "Error Initializing (0)", so games using GameGuard also don't work with Windows 7[2].
Because of the way that GameGuard hooks into core system DLLs, it is impossible to run games protected by GameGuard under Windows API Emulators, such as Wine under Unix-based operating systems. The key issue being that GameGuard bypass the OS safeguards in order to:
* Hide the game application process.
* Monitor the entire memory range.
* Terminate specific applications without the user consent.
* Block specific calls to DirectX or the windows API.
You're wrong. Failed.
It means alot of the data is stored client-side.
Actually, he is right - the only reason to have something like game guard is because too much of the game is running client side. For an FPS that is not pay to play this is understandable btu for a pay to play MMO it is ridiculous, and that is the point I made way back in the beginning being that for a pay to play game to do this makes it really ridiculous.
so...point out to us which AC software is used by other MMOs these days.....
Those that are P2P....
Can even do better then that. F2P game Guild Wars that is heavily PVP based. No third party security software. I pvped heavily in that game and never heard about speedhacks, teleporthacks before I started to play other MMO's. No cheap cheating in GW.
But then, technically GW is brilliant in datamanagement.
you said P2P...and I said prove it...about P2P...so you show me a F2P?
Still...GW did it right.....server side and no one cared about cheating there....yay
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I have to say...why cant you GG haters post like this....most of us might listen then...
Good post
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
That is verbatim pasted from the link I offered in the 7th reply of this topic, not to mention I have put in my own words what it does and problems it causes and cited several other sources saying the same thing.
I haven't played WoW so cannot comment on what that program does specifically but I know from reading on the subject that there is a far, far cry between PunkBuster, the Warden, VAC/Steam and what this GameGuard does. Seriously, installing legitimately and running with proper adimistration conrol in the hands of the user is one thing - subverting user and operating system control and installing hidden files and device drivers and remaining active even after the game is uninstalled with no viable means to uninstall - big difference folks.
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All I see is spin and white noise Agnt.
I ask again...
ARE you accusing GG of being a malicious piece of software? I mean actively malicious, not just sharing properties that you don't like, but ACTUALLY causing ACTUAL harm?
More specifically, are you accusing the version of GG that SB uses of being malicious or damaging?
Yes or No?
A one word answer plz? Lets stop dressing it up in multiple paragraphs of white noise and try to find a clear signal from you.
I have to say...why cant you GG haters post like this....most of us might listen then...
Good post
That is verbatim pasted from the link I offered in the 7th reply of this topic, not to mention I have put in my own words what it does and problems it causes and cited several other sources saying the same thing.
You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....
And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
You know what, I had posted here a repsonse to agtsmith's slippery politician like mud slinging, but forget it.
This is turning into a typical mmorpg.com thread full of white noise, tainted opinion, and spin. In short, it's now pointless and useless.
The change in this board is noticable recently, which is a real shame beacuse this was one on the few places on this site you could read good natured clear clean posts.
I guess growing awareness of the game has it's price.
I have to say...why cant you GG haters post like this....most of us might listen then...
Good post
That is verbatim pasted from the link I offered in the 7th reply of this topic, not to mention I have put in my own words what it does and problems it causes and cited several other sources saying the same thing.
You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....
And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems
It is not his words - he is quoting from the sources I provided at the beginning of the thread. ROFL. And FYI - the part highlighted in yellow does justify the label of rootkit. Want to here more from another source (security focus article cited earlier):
"The driver is installed as a system service. Even when Gameguard and the
multiplayer game(s) are closed, the driver continues running. The driver is
accessible under a non-admin account and is activated every boot. It does
not uninstall when the application is removed and in fact will not even
uninstall if selected in Device Manager and told to uninstall. The driver
must be deleted manually, and the registry must be edited to remove the
remaining reference."
Did you skip over that info too, I posted it pages ago along with other information.
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All you see is what you are willing to see, sorry, but you obviously are looking not for the truth or even for discovery but for a way not to believe. As for your question, I answered your question quite clearly and without any obfuscation. I am sorry if I did not word my sentence as you would like but as a free thinking and a person entitled to speak for myself I am under no obligation to reply as you see fit.
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I have to say...why cant you GG haters post like this....most of us might listen then...
Good post
That is verbatim pasted from the link I offered in the 7th reply of this topic, not to mention I have put in my own words what it does and problems it causes and cited several other sources saying the same thing.
You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....
And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems
It is not his words - he is quoting from the sources I provided at the beginning of the thread. ROFL. And FYI - the part highlighted in yellow does justify the label of rootkit. Want to here more from another source (security focus article cited earlier):
"The driver is installed as a system service. Even when Gameguard and the
multiplayer game(s) are closed, the driver continues running. The driver is
accessible under a non-admin account and is activated every boot. It does
not uninstall when the application is removed and in fact will not even
uninstall if selected in Device Manager and told to uninstall. The driver
must be deleted manually, and the registry must be edited to remove the
remaining reference."
Did you skip over that info too, I posted it pages ago along with other information.
It DOES NOT keep running on my system....and it was UNINSTALLED WITH THE GAME....one my system....
What more do you want...Neo? The Matrix ISN'T REAL EITHER!!!!
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices? It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each time your system boots it is loaded as any other driver. We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock.
My god, it is stunning how readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument. It is sad.
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txt
You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....
And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems
you really are quite egocentric aren't you?.
every post you make has you bashing someone or a statement about GG you disagree with. you sound like DFO fan boys during their war with anti-DFO fanboys.
you totally forget what the whole thread is about.
no one is disagreeing with the need for programs LIKE GG. but with how they go about installing and running.
there is a limit to covert scanning and running of 3rd party programs, unless you like having ad-ware running on your HDD... cause honestly GG does a similer thing as any run of the mill ad/spy ware. only its useage is diffrent where one is ment to prevent abuse of a program client the other is ment to abuse the end user system/os.
the whole history of GG has been nothing but failure. every game its used on is hacked out the wazoo. rose online being a good example. (i personally forget the p2p games i have seen GG used on but im sure there was cases of abuse on them too)
the fact GG does not state how it runs in any ToS or such only compounds the distrust people have for it.
people know exactly how PB runs. as well as other anti-cheats (or as much as public need/should know on its useage)
ontop of that GG gets flag repeatedly by lowend and topof the line protection programs. both free and paid, as i recall norton was flagging it i think a year or so ago do to how it ran during a virus scan. (im not sure if that was ever solved mind you as i dont use norton)
firewalls flag it as viral. do to the very actions it makes on the OS. Granted you could argue the firewall should be informed by end user and GG on the GG system commands. but at the same time why would a harmless anti-cheat make its command actions similer to illegal programs??
there may not be any public cases of abuse of GG run-time processes.. but that doesnt mean its not possible or hasnt been tempted.
GG has so far been the only reported anti-cheat to have these types of issues. why is that??
VaC and PB both do the exact same job. yet they arent flagged. they have never been flagged? im sure hackshield is the same. so explain to everyone how it is. a so called harmless program doing the same job as many others.. is always flagged as spy/ad ware and viruses??
personally i find it odd and suspicious how it works/operates.
OH and there are games/programs that dont use any 3rd party anti-cheat because they are securely locked away all important files that people hex-code to create cheats.
just because WoW and steam based games dont. doesnt mean there is not a way to prevent cheats on a game without GG or other programs.
ofcourse if people werent loserific and felt the need to code scripts for increased speed or disabling cool times we wouldnt need anti-cheats in the firstplace.
Unless you barely have an elementary school reading level the three sentences I replied to him with are very clear, crystal clear - I even included (in the original post) definitions of the adjectives I used.
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Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices? It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each tmie yoru system boots it is loaded as any other driver. We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock.
My god, it is stunning hos readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument. It is sad.
lol...so...it's hidden...but you know where it is...and I wouldn't?
nice try...it ISN'T THERE...and ISN'T LOADED AS ANY DRIVER!!!
(down by the clock?...is this your official explanation?)
I know how to find blind processes....thanx
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
txt
You obviously aren't smart enough to post it this way....
And this STILL does not make GG a rootkit or harmful....just not compatible....with certain systems
you really are quite egocentric aren't you?.
every post you make has you bashing someone or a statement about GG you disagree with. you sound like DFO fan boys during their war with anti-DFO fanboys.
you totally forget what the whole thread is about.
no one is disagreeing with the need for programs LIKE GG. but with how they go about installing and running.
there is a limit to covert scanning and running of 3rd party programs, unless you like having ad-ware running on your HDD... cause honestly GG does a similer thing as any run of the mill ad/spy ware. only its useage is diffrent where one is ment to prevent abuse of a program client the other is ment to abuse the end user system/os.
the whole history of GG has been nothing but failure. every game its used on is hacked out the wazoo. rose online being a good example. (i personally forget the p2p games i have seen GG used on but im sure there was cases of abuse on them too)
the fact GG does not state how it runs in any ToS or such only compounds the distrust people have for it.
people know exactly how PB runs. as well as other anti-cheats (or as much as public need/should know on its useage)
ontop of that GG gets flag repeatedly by lowend and topof the line protection programs. both free and paid, as i recall norton was flagging it i think a year or so ago do to how it ran during a virus scan. (im not sure if that was ever solved mind you as i dont use norton)
firewalls flag it as viral. do to the very actions it makes on the OS. Granted you could argue the firewall should be informed by end user and GG on the GG system commands. but at the same time why would a harmless anti-cheat make its command actions similer to illegal programs??
there may not be any public cases of abuse of GG run-time processes.. but that doesnt mean its not possible or hasnt been tempted.
GG has so far been the only reported anti-cheat to have these types of issues. why is that??
VaC and PB both do the exact same job. yet they arent flagged. they have never been flagged? im sure hackshield is the same. so explain to everyone how it is. a so called harmless program doing the same job as many others.. is always flagged as spy/ad ware and viruses??
personally i find it odd and suspicious how it works/operates.
OH and there are games/programs that dont use any 3rd party anti-cheat because they are securely locked away all important files that people hex-code to create cheats.
just because WoW and steam based games dont. doesnt mean there is not a way to prevent cheats on a game without GG or other programs.
ofcourse if people werent loserific and felt the need to code scripts for increased speed or disabling cool times we wouldnt need anti-cheats in the firstplace.
Any gamer that plays anything multi player is used to some app checking your system....hell Steam does this.....but somehow in an MMO...this is wrong?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Unless you barely have an elementary school reading level the three sentences I replied to him with are very clear, crystal clear - I even included (in the original post) definitions of the adjectives I used.
First off do not attack my reading level...I am highly educated and read just fine.
Second, it is NOT a clear answer. You are debating the meaning of words. You did not call it malicious, you called it illicit and dangerous. You are still implying the same thing regardless of the adjective you used.
He wanted to know if it HAS done anything bad, evil, illicit, malicious, wrong, fill in the blank with whatever word you wish. The point isn't the definition of the word, its the point if it HAS versus it MIGHT.
+1
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices? It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each tmie yoru system boots it is loaded as any other driver. We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock.
My god, it is stunning hos readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument. It is sad.
lol...so...it's hidden...but you know where it is...and I wouldn't?
nice try...it ISN'T THERE...and ISN'T LOADED AS ANY DRIVER!!!
(down by the clock?...is this your official explanation?)
I know how to find blind processes....thanx
use your window admin tools smarty pants.
i have this error every single day after installing GG twice for 2 games.
The npkcrypt service failed to start due to the following error:
The system cannot find the path specified.
For more information, see Help and Support Center at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
^ npkcrypt is the hidden crap for GG. you cant get rid of it. as i removed both the physical file and the reg file. but i guess i missed one some where....
BUT i forgot GG doesnt hide stuff eh.. its clear as day ... its all under c:programfilesgamenameGameGaurd ... eh...
GG tries to run every time i restart my pc. even when i havent touched a GG game in 1yr and 4months.... totally didnt uninstall when i got rid of the game. as well.
Did they send you special code because you are so good at enabling their practices? It is a hidden process and the driver and hooks are hidden as well so each tmie yoru system boots it is loaded as any other driver. We are not talking about things at the childish level here folks, there are many more programs and processes running on you computer than have windows above the desktop and tabs on the taskbar or icons down by the clock.
My god, it is stunning hos readily uninformed people will post arguing about things they know nothing about, or so little about as to clearly disqualify them from the argument. It is sad.
lol...so...it's hidden...but you know where it is...and I wouldn't?
nice try...it ISN'T THERE...and ISN'T LOADED AS ANY DRIVER!!!
(down by the clock?...is this your official explanation?)
I know how to find blind processes....thanx
use your window admin tools smarty pants.
i have this error every single day after installing GG twice for 2 games.
The npkcrypt service failed to start due to the following error:
The system cannot find the path specified.
For more information, see Help and Support Center at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/events.asp.
^ npkcrypt is the hidden crap for GG. you cant get rid of it. as i removed both the physical file and the reg file. but i guess i missed one some where....
BUT i forgot GG doesnt hide stuff eh.. its clear as day ... its all under c:programfilesgamenameGameGaurd ... eh...
GG tries to run every time i restart my pc. even when i havent touched a GG game in 1yr and 4months.... totally didnt uninstall when i got rid of the game. as well.
umm...I have....since beta...and since I tested this...and found nothing....who do you think has a more valid point?
I have never seen this....it might happen....but not maliciously....which is the point OF THIS THREAD!!!
I give up....you two or three who think that GG is bad....fine...don't play anything with an AC built in...they ALL do the same thing. Some better than others....
/meh
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
im well used to 3rd party anti-cheats running in the background. i check both my reg and taskmanager when i run programs.
just to make sure the stuff i want running IS running. i have had PB/GG/HS/VaC and other anti-cheats installed at one point or another for some game.
only GG causes me any alarm or problems. both when its running or when im disposing of it...
FPS or single based games all run some sort of app to make sure your not abusing the game illegally.
as do mmos. infact MMOS pretty much created the book FOR 3rd party apps to protect against illegal actions by end users on the client/server.
seeing as MMO = massively multiplayer online. its kind of generic term for ONLINE play. so naturally one would assume/expect some sort of client protection either by client producer or by 3rd party.
doesnt change the fact GG still runs when your not even playing that game.
heres a random WHAT IF (yes im full of em) what would happen if i injected a keylogger in to a GG update on a server. you then installed said update (with keylogger) and i then used GG to give me access to your online bank/creditcard as well as every game account you play??
what would you do then? shrug your shoulders and go "owell its ok its ment to run when im not at my PC"
no you would be quite pissed.
so the fact of the matter is why does GG feel the need to never terminate its process when it is pinged that the target app is terminated?
(and no i have no plans ever to create such a program to log a persons computer info, just an example)