You guys know my deal im basically a Anti-WoW poster on this site but in reality im just a dude that got pissed that WoW changed into a game that wasn't really my cup of tea. Blizzard took away my 40 man raids and the took the need of CC and and the skill of tanking out of dungeons. I played WoW recently and I like certain aspects of the game but those two features kill it for me. I like the pvp in the game as something I could do when im bored but at heart im a pve guy. I just wished they would give oldtime hardcore raiders a 40 man option again. Maybe one or two of the neext 10 raids could be 40 man for hardcore progression guilds. Also dungeons used to be a place when my skills as a tank could be shown off now everything is AOE. I just want to go back to CC, focused targetting, kill order and a revamp in overall dungeon difficulty again.
If blizzard would do this I would be back. I dont want to change the entire game just give me the option to have a 40 man raid and harder dungeons that require a specific setup for CC, oldschool pve thats challenging and requires a time commitment. Other then that leave the game the way it is its fine. Anti-WoW guy out lol.
Um resub get a guild enter ulduar and enjoy yourself because your two wishes have just been granted
40 mans are back and 5 man dungeons actually require people to not just AOE the hell out of an instance so i can actually have a challenge when I tank?
I don't get it, last time when I was level70 (right before the new expansion) heroics were never AOE'd. They were very strict and were required to have some type of CC. I doubt you've even done a heroic and/or perhaps you are associating everyone with the top geared dorks of the server. Perhaps try a lesser developed server?
Blizzard will NEVER go back to 40 man raids. Content is now designed for 10 and 25 man raids. There is a chance, albeit a small one, they may design a 40 man raid for a special encounter (maybe like Sargeras or something). However, I doubt they would do that to their design team. As for Ulduar - it is proving to be hard and if you read reports, those guilds who thought they were hardcore and great raiders are finding it to be their undoing and that they are not as good as they thought. It is a lot more difficult in Naxx (for all but the hardest hardcore guilds) and it is what Blizzard promised. Think you can do it? Go to VoA and try the 2nd boss. He is the supposed "gear check" for Ulduar and so far my guild has lasted maybe 1 minute in a fight with him. Back to naxx for us to gear up more (which is fine, cause I enjoy Naxx and the boss fights there).
VoA2 isn't that hard. If people in your guild are dying.. just have them do the final boss in HOL a bunch of times, and then do the spider boss in OK. (the one where the dps needs to switch targets to the guardians). The biggest problem is with melee dps not getting out of the nova, and/or dps not switching targets to get the add before he enrages and wipes the group.
I really don't think VoA2 is a gear check at all. It is more an idiot check (especially for melee dps). The actual enrage timer on the add is very easy to beat if even half your dps switch targets, and the damage done by the boss is easy to heal if the melee dps don't get nova'd.
VOA2 is too hard for 95% of the PUG's (right now). I know it is new and people will "adjust", but the problem is the following.
VOA was a nice Raid to do after fighting in Lake Wintergrasp. It could be done with a random pickup group 90% of the time without any serious problems. You could even stay in your PvP gear.
Giving those guys that don't Raid a nice playing ground and for everyone else a lottery ticket to gear ONCE a week.
I only saw twice a Raid leader refusing people because of their gear (and even then I think the Raid leader was wrong).
VOA2 is more difficult in tactics (a real Raid boss) AND he hits harder AND the dps (melee) must be on top AND the healers must have 1900+ spell power. So the chance of downing him with a random pick up group THAT FORMS automatically after the world PvP of Lake Wintergrasp is perhaps 10%/20%, which is not good.
Now IF VOA2 was a different instance - not coupled witth VOA1 - I would agree. But now people PUG, try the second one, whipe and leave, because if they try VOA1 first, they are saved.
Result: second week now I am not downing VOA1 - nor 2 as my guild is giving priority to Ulduar. And so in this respect VOA2 misses its target: a public not doing much raiding but having a little fun after the massive PvP fun in Winter.
----
As a sidenote: the new Ulduar is simply the best raid instance Blizzard has ever made. The first long encounter with the vehicule combat is a nice twist and a much needed one. Great graphics techniques used here (for an mmorpg). I felt myself manning an anti air tank in WW2 at the beginning. Impressive.
I would put the order as Ulduar - and old Kara as 2 best "newer" 25 men Raids ( and NO the old 40 men content with all its dreadful mobs are not in that top 3). But Ulduar tops Kara with ease (have not seen the second part yet btw).
Ah cool I have similar views in general.
VoA boss 2 makes it hard to form a group for VoA, If you go for boss 2 first many will hesitate, they have died enough thru PUGs. If you go for boss 1 first, many won't want to join b/c they do not want to be saved after boss 1. So a bit harder to find a PUG or form one, and agree on which boss to start first. I agree, VoA 1 and 2 should be 2 instances.
VoA boss 2 is hard. Its new, and unless you use a good mod, it need time to learn how to predict the boss aoe, or find which add is buffed.
Ulduar is indeed fun. The tank boss and the sequel before him is a total new way of doing things. Says who blizzard makes every boss the same. Riding different kinds of vehicles, getting cannoned to the top of the boss (which is a tank) is fun.
The seond boss is a fiasco for PUGs. The PUGs I joined never got to kill the pairs of giants, which are trash. They kill the tanks faster than a 25man Naxx boss. I feel they hit the tanks almost as hard as 25man petchwork. Interesting, after killing one of them many times (wipe before killing the first), we got an epic drop which is stunningly great.
So the PUG I joined split up and we said, the pair of giants are actually boss mobs in disguise.
40 man world dragon raids could be fun but that isn't the reason I posted..
I too am not thrilled with the "AOE" 5 man's anymore.. 5 man used to be about kill orders and CC.. now what they did was make the entire dungeon run about AOE tanking.. and AOE dps'ing.. I miss the old days when CC was something to desire in a run.. NOT required.. but desired .. oh well
Originally posted by bryan1980 The complaint about AOE mostly is caused by how easy Nax25 ended up being. Raiders (and even puggers) were clearing Nax 25 every week, then doing heroics that they greatly outgeared. If Naxx25 wasn't so easy, the heroics would have held up longer and would have required more CC. But again, that is only true of raiders.. most of the PUG heroics I do require at least some CC. What you are hearing is a guild, fully geared in Nax25 gear, going back and doing a heroic and just blasting through it.
I think you sink your own viewpoint without even realizing it. How hard could heroics be if people skipped them and cleared naxx? The ease of difficulty in naxx didn't cause the problems with ae damage, it the opposite effect.
My alliance side guild is filled with ultra casual people that struggled with T5 burning crusade content, but we were clearing heroics within the first few weeks of the release and weeks before we went to naxx. My horde side guild walked right through them and never blinked. That isn't to say they were not well designed dungeons with fun content, but blizzard totally messed up the balance of the game with the expansion and all the revamps they did. It is painfully obvious the balance wasn't tested right and the AE threat and damage really trivializes most of the content. That included heroics and naxx.
Blizzard went through a lot of trouble to give every viable spec some sort of crowd control so they could fill a position in a group. They also did the same with AOE damage and threat generation for tanks, which in the end proved to be a much much much quicker route to clearing content with a far greater degree of success.
Originally posted by bryan1980 The complaint about AOE mostly is caused by how easy Nax25 ended up being. Raiders (and even puggers) were clearing Nax 25 every week, then doing heroics that they greatly outgeared. If Naxx25 wasn't so easy, the heroics would have held up longer and would have required more CC. But again, that is only true of raiders.. most of the PUG heroics I do require at least some CC. What you are hearing is a guild, fully geared in Nax25 gear, going back and doing a heroic and just blasting through it.
I think you sink your own viewpoint without even realizing it. How hard could heroics be if people skipped them and cleared naxx? The ease of difficulty in naxx didn't cause the problems with ae damage, it the opposite effect.
My alliance side guild is filled with ultra casual people that struggled with T5 burning crusade content, but we were clearing heroics within the first few weeks of the release and weeks before we went to naxx. My horde side guild walked right through them and never blinked. That isn't to say they were not well designed dungeons with fun content, but blizzard totally messed up the balance of the game with the expansion and all the revamps they did. It is painfully obvious the balance wasn't tested right and the AE threat and damage really trivializes most of the content. That included heroics and naxx.
Blizzard went through a lot of trouble to give every viable spec some sort of crowd control so they could fill a position in a group. They also did the same with AOE damage and threat generation for tanks, which in the end proved to be a much much much quicker route to clearing content with a far greater degree of success.
Put it this way. Once your guild had 25 people who were level 80, they could almost clear naxx25 in blues. They were getting iLevel 213 and 226 items as drops since a few weeks after wrath launched. Within a month of wrath being launched, most people who were in raiding guilds had half their gear as ilvl 213-226 and the rest probably ilvl 200 epics from reps and heroics.
Naxx25 basically had the same gear requirements to 'succeed' as heroics did, but Naxx25 gave much better rewards. If Naxx25 had been harder, players would have been running heroics for a longer time and being lucky to be wearing ilvl200 epics. But instead of that, they were running herioics in ilvl 226 gear and overgearing it.. which lead to uber tanks and the ability to AOE too much stuff.
Players in blues or rep epics (ilvl 200) cannot AOE through heroics. The only people who can do it are people who outgear heroics. Naxx25 being so easy just made that happen very quickly for a lot of people.
Originally posted by bryan1980 The complaint about AOE mostly is caused by how easy Nax25 ended up being. Raiders (and even puggers) were clearing Nax 25 every week, then doing heroics that they greatly outgeared. If Naxx25 wasn't so easy, the heroics would have held up longer and would have required more CC. But again, that is only true of raiders.. most of the PUG heroics I do require at least some CC. What you are hearing is a guild, fully geared in Nax25 gear, going back and doing a heroic and just blasting through it.
I think you sink your own viewpoint without even realizing it. How hard could heroics be if people skipped them and cleared naxx? The ease of difficulty in naxx didn't cause the problems with ae damage, it the opposite effect.
My alliance side guild is filled with ultra casual people that struggled with T5 burning crusade content, but we were clearing heroics within the first few weeks of the release and weeks before we went to naxx. My horde side guild walked right through them and never blinked. That isn't to say they were not well designed dungeons with fun content, but blizzard totally messed up the balance of the game with the expansion and all the revamps they did. It is painfully obvious the balance wasn't tested right and the AE threat and damage really trivializes most of the content. That included heroics and naxx.
Blizzard went through a lot of trouble to give every viable spec some sort of crowd control so they could fill a position in a group. They also did the same with AOE damage and threat generation for tanks, which in the end proved to be a much much much quicker route to clearing content with a far greater degree of success.
Put it this way. Once your guild had 25 people who were level 80, they could almost clear naxx25 in blues. They were getting iLevel 213 and 226 items as drops since a few weeks after wrath launched. Within a month of wrath being launched, most people who were in raiding guilds had half their gear as ilvl 213-226 and the rest probably ilvl 200 epics from reps and heroics.
Naxx25 basically had the same gear requirements to 'succeed' as heroics did, but Naxx25 gave much better rewards. If Naxx25 had been harder, players would have been running heroics for a longer time and being lucky to be wearing ilvl200 epics. But instead of that, they were running herioics in ilvl 226 gear and overgearing it.. which lead to uber tanks and the ability to AOE too much stuff.
Players in blues or rep epics (ilvl 200) cannot AOE through heroics. The only people who can do it are people who outgear heroics. Naxx25 being so easy just made that happen very quickly for a lot of people.
Not true, unless they are very skilled and select the very best blue, best planning. Even then a full blue suite might lack the hp, armor, AP, or SP to get the job done.
You cannot provide enuf dps to take down many of the bosses before boss goes berserk/rage. A tank in blue will not be able to stand the boss specials, from petchwork to whichever you want to say. A good team can clear a lot of trash, but many of the boss encounters are simply gear check.
Originally posted by bryan1980 Put it this way. Once your guild had 25 people who were level 80, they could almost clear naxx25 in blues. They were getting iLevel 213 and 226 items as drops since a few weeks after wrath launched. Within a month of wrath being launched, most people who were in raiding guilds had half their gear as ilvl 213-226 and the rest probably ilvl 200 epics from reps and heroics. Naxx25 basically had the same gear requirements to 'succeed' as heroics did, but Naxx25 gave much better rewards. If Naxx25 had been harder, players would have been running heroics for a longer time and being lucky to be wearing ilvl200 epics. But instead of that, they were running herioics in ilvl 226 gear and overgearing it.. which lead to uber tanks and the ability to AOE too much stuff. Players in blues or rep epics (ilvl 200) cannot AOE through heroics. The only people who can do it are people who outgear heroics. Naxx25 being so easy just made that happen very quickly for a lot of people.
You say naxx and heroics have the same difficulty level and that people had an easy time in naxx, but then say heroics are harder and only easy if someone raided?
My guild had no trouble using area effect spells in heroics just like we had no trouble using the same thing in heroics and we are super casual. It is fairly easy to hit level 80 and walk through most heroics with aoe, even without naxx level gear. I know, because I did it.
Originally posted by bryan1980 Put it this way. Once your guild had 25 people who were level 80, they could almost clear naxx25 in blues. They were getting iLevel 213 and 226 items as drops since a few weeks after wrath launched. Within a month of wrath being launched, most people who were in raiding guilds had half their gear as ilvl 213-226 and the rest probably ilvl 200 epics from reps and heroics. Naxx25 basically had the same gear requirements to 'succeed' as heroics did, but Naxx25 gave much better rewards. If Naxx25 had been harder, players would have been running heroics for a longer time and being lucky to be wearing ilvl200 epics. But instead of that, they were running herioics in ilvl 226 gear and overgearing it.. which lead to uber tanks and the ability to AOE too much stuff. Players in blues or rep epics (ilvl 200) cannot AOE through heroics. The only people who can do it are people who outgear heroics. Naxx25 being so easy just made that happen very quickly for a lot of people.
You say naxx and heroics have the same difficulty level and that people had an easy time in naxx, but then say heroics are harder and only easy if someone raided?
My guild had no trouble using area effect spells in heroics just like we had no trouble using the same thing in heroics and we are super casual. It is fairly easy to hit level 80 and walk through most heroics with aoe, even without naxx level gear. I know, because I did it.
Well not all Heroics can be brute-d thru. Many of the events require team work and coordination, such as when to dodge the pounding of the boss (AN), or the tank dies, what mob to kill first and not just blind aoe, as some trash mobs does not take tank taunts and go straight for healers. Aoeing will not kill them fast enuf b4 they make it to the healer (the event prior to the first boss of AN). In OK, you need to focus fire on guardian when they comes out, for the first boss. Heroics are easy now, b/c we all got the winning solution out, or a cheat trick to bypass it. WoW is kind enuf not to change the behaviour of bosses, or this feeling of easy going will suddenly change, to the dismal of many.
This said, AoEing works for most trash now, as the tanks have pretty good AoE taunting ability, sometimes aoe taunting for like a few seconds, which, with 3 AoE DPS, practically means full clearance.
I really don't object if Blizzard want to add a super-hard mode that requires 40 people given that it does not take a lot out of their development resource to develop content for the majority of us.
However, it seems that there are so so few people who want 40 man raid that this is NOT going to happen. Just getting 40 people show up at one time is a major chore.
There is a reason why a lot of the 10/25 man raids are anow pugable. If not, 95% of the players will never see the content. And the OP needs to distinguish between a large (40 man) raid and a difficult one. Those two things are independent. Raids on hard modes are HARD. It is not a cake walk, for example, to do 3 drakes, in OS.
I really don't object if Blizzard want to add a super-hard mode that requires 40 people given that it does not take a lot out of their development resource to develop content for the majority of us. However, it seems that there are so so few people who want 40 man raid that this is NOT going to happen. Just getting 40 people show up at one time is a major chore. There is a reason why a lot of the 10/25 man raids are anow pugable. If not, 95% of the players will never see the content. And the OP needs to distinguish between a large (40 man) raid and a difficult one. Those two things are independent. Raids on hard modes are HARD. It is not a cake walk, for example, to do 3 drakes, in OS.
Indeed, as in TBC, 5 man Heroics can be very demanding. Even guildies having Sunwell on farm sometimes wipe in MT.
40man does not mean difficulity, it just means chore, and trouble finding a time slot when 40 guildies are free and can show up.
Fact is, 10man ulduar now is hard, even for 10man with very good gear. 25man ulduar, well ... . AND, Icecrown Citadel is coming.
Blizzard has publicly stated that they plan to introduce a difficult 5 man, that will present a challenge similar to Magister's terrace.
So CC will almost certainly be needed.
However, personally I'd expect it to work out like the first MgT. The hardcore and skillful will go there a lot in the first few months, farm everything they need, and then abandon it. After that it will get a rep as a pug killer, and no-one will visit it.
Originally posted by bryan1980 Put it this way. Once your guild had 25 people who were level 80, they could almost clear naxx25 in blues. They were getting iLevel 213 and 226 items as drops since a few weeks after wrath launched. Within a month of wrath being launched, most people who were in raiding guilds had half their gear as ilvl 213-226 and the rest probably ilvl 200 epics from reps and heroics. Naxx25 basically had the same gear requirements to 'succeed' as heroics did, but Naxx25 gave much better rewards. If Naxx25 had been harder, players would have been running heroics for a longer time and being lucky to be wearing ilvl200 epics. But instead of that, they were running herioics in ilvl 226 gear and overgearing it.. which lead to uber tanks and the ability to AOE too much stuff. Players in blues or rep epics (ilvl 200) cannot AOE through heroics. The only people who can do it are people who outgear heroics. Naxx25 being so easy just made that happen very quickly for a lot of people.
You say naxx and heroics have the same difficulty level and that people had an easy time in naxx, but then say heroics are harder and only easy if someone raided?
My guild had no trouble using area effect spells in heroics just like we had no trouble using the same thing in heroics and we are super casual. It is fairly easy to hit level 80 and walk through most heroics with aoe, even without naxx level gear. I know, because I did it.
Well not all Heroics can be brute-d thru. Many of the events require team work and coordination, such as when to dodge the pounding of the boss (AN), or the tank dies, what mob to kill first and not just blind aoe, as some trash mobs does not take tank taunts and go straight for healers. Aoeing will not kill them fast enuf b4 they make it to the healer (the event prior to the first boss of AN). In OK, you need to focus fire on guardian when they comes out, for the first boss. Heroics are easy now, b/c we all got the winning solution out, or a cheat trick to bypass it. WoW is kind enuf not to change the behaviour of bosses, or this feeling of easy going will suddenly change, to the dismal of many.
This said, AoEing works for most trash now, as the tanks have pretty good AoE taunting ability, sometimes aoe taunting for like a few seconds, which, with 3 AoE DPS, practically means full clearance.
Most boss fights are the same difficulty they were in the last expansion, but to the original posters point no one really shines during a boss fight so to speak.
The dungeons themselves are cakewalk excluding the bosses. Just AOE through everything where it used to take group coordination and some small amount of tactics. I would argue that even most boss fights are to easy due to the insane power level of characters as a result of blizzard screwing up the balance mechanics of players dps/hps/mitigation/threat, but that is another issue all together.
I wouldn't mind seeing 100 people open world raids like Public Quests in WAR. However the 40 man instanced raids as we know them, I don't ever want them back it's so frustrating and too time consuming and not fun.
Most boss fights are the same difficulty they were in the last expansion, but to the original posters point no one really shines during a boss fight so to speak. The dungeons themselves are cakewalk excluding the bosses. Just AOE through everything where it used to take group coordination and some small amount of tactics. I would argue that even most boss fights are to easy due to the insane power level of characters as a result of blizzard screwing up the balance mechanics of players dps/hps/mitigation/threat, but that is another issue all together.
Clearly someone who didn't enter Ulduar lately....
So far the "myth of screw ups" being blown away by the new raised Blizzard bar.
After Ulduar's first boss encounter, you can really say that dungeons on mmo's will never be the same again.
Next comment of a would be designer should first visit Ulduar.
Next.
What does the RAID zone of ulduar have to do with the DUNGEONS for 5 mans? You do know what we are talking about right? 1 new raid dungoen that is on par with past expansions doesn't effect the difficulty level of DUNGEONS in lich king. They are far to easy and one new raid zone doesn't make up for that. It does not change the difficulty of the entire expansion nor raise the bar. It is one raid zone, lets see how the rest of the expansion turns out before waving the banner of difficulty.
As for knowing where I have and have not been, please stop being so presumptious about anyone that has a viewpoint that doesn't agree with your own.
Originally posted by Daffid011 Most boss fights are the same difficulty they were in the last expansion, but to the original posters point no one really shines during a boss fight so to speak. The dungeons themselves are cakewalk excluding the bosses. Just AOE through everything where it used to take group coordination and some small amount of tactics. I would argue that even most boss fights are to easy due to the insane power level of characters as a result of blizzard screwing up the balance mechanics of players dps/hps/mitigation/threat, but that is another issue all together.
Err, did you ever do heroic arcatraz back in the day when you needed it for your TK attunement? That place was so hard in blues and even Karazhan gear didn't help that much. Tried helping a friend through once. Ouch. Murmur was a pretty tough boss on heroic.
Originally posted by Daffid011 Most boss fights are the same difficulty they were in the last expansion, but to the original posters point no one really shines during a boss fight so to speak. The dungeons themselves are cakewalk excluding the bosses. Just AOE through everything where it used to take group coordination and some small amount of tactics. I would argue that even most boss fights are to easy due to the insane power level of characters as a result of blizzard screwing up the balance mechanics of players dps/hps/mitigation/threat, but that is another issue all together.
Err, did you ever do heroic arcatraz back in the day when you needed it for your TK attunement? That place was so hard in blues and even Karazhan gear didn't help that much. Tried helping a friend through once. Ouch. Murmur was a pretty tough boss on heroic.
Murmur was never really tough, people were just moronic.
I can't count the number of times we wiped on him because the ranged DPS didn't know what the fuck to do.
basically the game is now more of a story game than before. Its more about everyone getting to do everything, just like it would be in a single player game per say. Everyone levels up, everyone has the option to read the story through quests, and then everyone completes all the dungeons and sees what happens to their favorite characters. Its not about progression anymore, its not about trying to kill something to get to the next fight. Its about everyone getting to do everything,
IMO its not fun, its guided entertainment like watching TV or playing a linear single player game. I dont really play single player games, but there are lots of people who do! I would much rather struggle to kill a boss and then have the opportunity to get to the next fight, only to have to struggle again to maybe get to the next one. This to me is much better than having content come out and knowing beforehand than i will kill everything.
Originally posted by Daffid011 Most boss fights are the same difficulty they were in the last expansion, but to the original posters point no one really shines during a boss fight so to speak. The dungeons themselves are cakewalk excluding the bosses. Just AOE through everything where it used to take group coordination and some small amount of tactics. I would argue that even most boss fights are to easy due to the insane power level of characters as a result of blizzard screwing up the balance mechanics of players dps/hps/mitigation/threat, but that is another issue all together.
Err, did you ever do heroic arcatraz back in the day when you needed it for your TK attunement? That place was so hard in blues and even Karazhan gear didn't help that much. Tried helping a friend through once. Ouch. Murmur was a pretty tough boss on heroic.
Yes I did more than my fair share of burning crusade content.
One of the major themes in this thread is about how easy the lich king heroics are compared to old world heroics. Raids also to an extent.
You guys know my deal im basically a Anti-WoW poster on this site but in reality im just a dude that got pissed that WoW changed into a game that wasn't really my cup of tea. Blizzard took away my 40 man raids and the took the need of CC and and the skill of tanking out of dungeons. I played WoW recently and I like certain aspects of the game but those two features kill it for me. I like the pvp in the game as something I could do when im bored but at heart im a pve guy. I just wished they would give oldtime hardcore raiders a 40 man option again. Maybe one or two of the neext 10 raids could be 40 man for hardcore progression guilds. Also dungeons used to be a place when my skills as a tank could be shown off now everything is AOE. I just want to go back to CC, focused targetting, kill order and a revamp in overall dungeon difficulty again.
If blizzard would do this I would be back. I dont want to change the entire game just give me the option to have a 40 man raid and harder dungeons that require a specific setup for CC, oldschool pve thats challenging and requires a time commitment. Other then that leave the game the way it is its fine. Anti-WoW guy out lol.
oldschool, hah! you talking about oldschool in same gategory with world of warcraft.
besides in m0llys opinion in all this is screw the 40 man screw the 25 man thers too much " i need to go loo, i need to do this and that" and when everyhting is organized too much its not fun anymore where theres no room for mistakes the fun disappears. i mean its game and entertainment and when its too serious wheres the fun then?!
only choise is to put these 40 players in same place would be before burning crusade ( meaning town raids , like crossroads etc ) and normal pvp battlegrounding, wich would be one feature added from my side, just plain map with couple of mountains and pure killing another factiona nd whos stading tall last wins, simple is that!
you talk about 40 man raids means you dont even want a hard game instead you are asking easy life in wow pressing few buttons and do what some teenage guil/raidleader told you, you want that to be your gaming? sadness
Originally posted by Zorndorf Well, SIMPLY because this thread is and was about Raid difficulty (read the OP).
And SIMPLY because Ulduar is proof it blows your "theory" right out of the water. re-Read the blue in your post. STILL saying that everything is unbalanced (in Pve and Pvp) in your earlier posts "because of insane (sic) power of characters" is already send to the trash can weeks (and for PvP even months) ago. I'll give you a hint: Arena matches last sometimes 20 minutes these days (where is that burst damage now ???) and ... TRY to play with an alt who is NOT in deep purple's TBC and level it through the end game of WotLK as early as 69. You'll soon realise that Heroics are a welcome diversion for these characters as they prepare for the raids. And Uldar is simply a next step up level to the enjoyment. It IS too hard for the casual PUG. In fact in view of what Ulduar now is, it shows people don't have ANY insight in what Blizzard tries to make: A game everyone on his/her level can enjoy without giving in to would be amateurish game designer thoughts. OK, You had your theory, but Ulduar proves you were mistaken. I knew that already in playing a fresh alt through Northrend, but Ulduar proves very much that Blizzard know exactly how they tune stuff. They can't of course melt both extreme playing characters (the extreme green and the extreme purple), so at least in this design - as can clearly be seen by now - they can offer content to everyone. From easy dungeons to very hard Ulduar.
If you actually read the thread you would have read the original posters points about 2 things (thus the very apted written title of this thread)
point 1: he would like 40 man raid size returned
point 2: he would like difficulty in dungeons returned, specifically the portion about area effect clearing trash mobs.
So please stop pointing to ulduar as if it is the crowning pinnacle of this topic or at least try to follow the thread before you come trail blazing into the topic underlining and citing things that have no relationship to the issues being discussed and disproving my "theories" whatever you think they are.
Despite your best efforts to say otherwise, lich king is far to easy. Rant and rave about whatever you like, but the overwhelming majority of players are in agreement on that INCLUDING BLIZZARD as can be noted in many of their Q/A sessions where they admit the game is to easy. So you may claim blizzard this and blizzard that, but even blizzard admitted they messed up the power balance in the expansion. Cast whatever shadows you want on my "theories", but you are wrong and blizzards admittance shows you to be wrong.
For the record, I could f***ing care less about one dungeon 6 months after release for an expansion that was in the works for 2 years. I would have expected more content or better balance, but not missing both. It was one of my bigger fears when I saw just how much blizzard was trying to change while putting out an expansion.
Clearly ... The overwhelming majority of players NOW thinks that Ulduar is too difficult. Just look at the official Wow forums. Those who say it is STILL too easy are being attacked for being crazy and lazy to post with their lvl 5 avatars.... So I am pretty sure you never set a foot in Ulduar. It's time to keep following the changes you know. Instead of hanging onto a theory that was formed into your head monhs ago BEFORE even trying your NON epic characters in Northrend. Or is that simply too hard to understand.... And I rest my case: try entering Northrend with a fresh green character at level 69. I did it and the game is not that "easy". It is for THESE (alt) characters the dungeons are being made and the reputation factions are in: they give good loot at an easier pace. ------ Just IGNORING the Ulduar difficulty is a strange behaviour too for someone wanting to discuss the complete cycle of WotLK content.... which is only starting to evolve ...after 5 months +. Expect the bars again to be raised as WotLK progresses into more advanced territory. But it IS a good thing the basic dungeons are manageable for these weaker characters that didn't start out with blues/purples obtained by camping months or years at level 70. Just as IF Blizzard can't tune it at all. What a silly argument/idea you want to hold onto: it is just pure and simple math really, Ghostcrawler said recently. -------- And I am quite convinced you didn't experience the TBC expansion at full epic level 60 either, because WotLk went exactly through the same cycle. The only difference there was that TBC raids and dungeons were full of bugs and had too unbalanced encounters (Gruul was unplayable really). As was the first feeling of burst damage at lvl 60 +. Only it took till patch 2.2 to have the PvP balance, now it is already better balanced as of 3.1 (Ghostcrawler just said that classes won't be getting major updates anymore). WotLK was far more planned in advance and I never get why people think they know it better when not holding ANY data at all. Just play and see for yourself instead of holding on to theories that are already bypassed months (pvp) and weeks ago (pve).
You are the only one talking about ulduar. The rest of the poster are talking about dungeons and their heroics in lich king, not raids. They are talking about how easy the dungeons overall, some indluding many of the bosses.
Yet you seem to think that one raid dungeon 6 months after release that isn't balanced somehow negates the rest of the game. Please note I never said ulduar was to easy, that is you fault for implying that I did. I said my guild is further along in ulduar now than we were in burning crusade raids during a similar time period.
Aside from that, you are the only one pointing to ulduar as hard and ignoring the rest of the game as if 1 raid zone somehow averages everything else out. The rest of the game is far to easy and just in case you missed it BLIZZARD AGREES! Did you hear that clearly enough, even blizzard admits the rest of the game is to easy.
As for the rest of your speculation about my experiences, I have nothing to prove to you. I can speak from experience and sorry if I don't struggle with content the same way you do. That doesn't mean I have not experienced anything.
Just to point out something funny about the way you make assumption about people. At one point above you say dungeons are only to easy for people who have epic gear that camped for months in previous expansions. Then you turn around and accuse me of never experiencing epic content prior to lich king.
I do not understand why Zorn is so defensive. Content exists across four rough dimensions in WoW (PvE):
- Single-man/co-op such as quest lines and the like
- Small group content - mainly 5-man instances but also some quest lines or parts there of
- 10-man raid content
- 25-man raid content
Now, WotLK out of the box had basically zero scaling of difficulty along these four categories and hence basically everyone had cleared the game by January. We are not talking about serious hard-core raiders - we are talking about average Joe's playing the game. When then Ulduar comes out it gives new bones to the 10/25-man raid crowd. But let's face it - it was very very late even with Blizzard standards and it does not help single-man/co-op players and 5-man enthusiasts at all. Blizzard missed the mark with difficulty scaling completely in WotLK. That is it really. And the problem with that is that the content does not last long enough when that happens.
This is what also something that Blizzard has admitted so I do not know what or who you are fighting for Zorn.
You guys know my deal im basically a Anti-WoW poster on this site but in reality im just a dude that got pissed that WoW changed into a game that wasn't really my cup of tea. Blizzard took away my 40 man raids and the took the need of CC and and the skill of tanking out of dungeons. I played WoW recently and I like certain aspects of the game but those two features kill it for me. I like the pvp in the game as something I could do when im bored but at heart im a pve guy. I just wished they would give oldtime hardcore raiders a 40 man option again. Maybe one or two of the neext 10 raids could be 40 man for hardcore progression guilds. Also dungeons used to be a place when my skills as a tank could be shown off now everything is AOE. I just want to go back to CC, focused targetting, kill order and a revamp in overall dungeon difficulty again.
If blizzard would do this I would be back. I dont want to change the entire game just give me the option to have a 40 man raid and harder dungeons that require a specific setup for CC, oldschool pve thats challenging and requires a time commitment. Other then that leave the game the way it is its fine. Anti-WoW guy out lol.
40 man raids were awful! Yes lets let Jimmy the Tulip the level 60 rogue auto attack and eat a sandwich while everyone else busts their ass to get to the end and when the loot rolls happen he rolls better and gets ultra rare T2 trash drop while everyone else that busted their nuts comes out with a hide or nothing at all. Oh better yet lets go with the user created DKP system and let Jimmy the Tulip rub his balls and auto attack everything while the tank dies for him and the other 38 members and have him grab nice loot just because hes there and auto attacking. You cant tell if he is auto attacking or just doing absoutly nothing or maybe hes just spamming backstab while he watches The George Lopez show. At any rate he can be an anchor on the raid and he gets nice crap and people who are actually good and trying can walk away with nothing. That was whats wrong with 40 man raids and the current MMO loot system. WAR actually cured this somewhat with the PQ loot system which they neglected to add into end game dungeons. Although WAR fails because of their random as balls RvR loot system that lets someone just as useless randomly win loot in that too.
You guys know my deal im basically a Anti-WoW poster on this site but in reality im just a dude that got pissed that WoW changed into a game that wasn't really my cup of tea. Blizzard took away my 40 man raids and the took the need of CC and and the skill of tanking out of dungeons. I played WoW recently and I like certain aspects of the game but those two features kill it for me. I like the pvp in the game as something I could do when im bored but at heart im a pve guy. I just wished they would give oldtime hardcore raiders a 40 man option again. Maybe one or two of the neext 10 raids could be 40 man for hardcore progression guilds. Also dungeons used to be a place when my skills as a tank could be shown off now everything is AOE. I just want to go back to CC, focused targetting, kill order and a revamp in overall dungeon difficulty again.
If blizzard would do this I would be back. I dont want to change the entire game just give me the option to have a 40 man raid and harder dungeons that require a specific setup for CC, oldschool pve thats challenging and requires a time commitment. Other then that leave the game the way it is its fine. Anti-WoW guy out lol.
40 man raids were awful! Yes lets let Jimmy the Tulip the level 60 rogue auto attack and eat a sandwich while everyone else busts their ass to get to the end and when the loot rolls happen he rolls better and gets ultra rare T2 trash drop while everyone else that busted their nuts comes out with a hide or nothing at all. Oh better yet lets go with the user created DKP system and let Jimmy the Tulip rub his balls and auto attack everything while the tank dies for him and the other 38 members and have him grab nice loot just because hes there and auto attacking. You cant tell if he is auto attacking or just doing absoutly nothing or maybe hes just spamming backstab while he watches The George Lopez show. At any rate he can be an anchor on the raid and he gets nice crap and people who are actually good and trying can walk away with nothing. That was whats wrong with 40 man raids and the current MMO loot system. WAR actually cured this somewhat with the PQ loot system which they neglected to add into end game dungeons. Although WAR fails because of their random as balls RvR loot system that lets someone just as useless randomly win loot in that too.
40 man raids were awful! Yes lets let Jimmy the Tulip the level 60 rogue auto attack and eat a sandwich while everyone else busts their ass to get to the end and when the loot rolls happen he rolls better and gets ultra rare T2 trash drop while everyone else that busted their nuts comes out with a hide or nothing at all. Oh better yet lets go with the user created DKP system and let Jimmy the Tulip rub his balls and auto attack everything while the tank dies for him and the other 38 members and have him grab nice loot just because hes there and auto attacking. You cant tell if he is auto attacking or just doing absoutly nothing or maybe hes just spamming backstab while he watches The George Lopez show. At any rate he can be an anchor on the raid and he gets nice crap and people who are actually good and trying can walk away with nothing. That was whats wrong with 40 man raids and the current MMO loot system. WAR actually cured this somewhat with the PQ loot system which they neglected to add into end game dungeons. Although WAR fails because of their random as balls RvR loot system that lets someone just as useless randomly win loot in that too.
Well damage/healing meters are the ultimate judge of who pulls their weight. The new ulduar instance is actually challenging for every role including tanks. On top of the 10 and 25man versions each boss can be defeated under hard mode circumstances which result in better loot. So instead of finding 40 average players, you need 25 pretty good players to down some of the hard mode bosses.
Comments
Um resub get a guild enter ulduar and enjoy yourself because your two wishes have just been granted
40 mans are back and 5 man dungeons actually require people to not just AOE the hell out of an instance so i can actually have a challenge when I tank?
I don't get it, last time when I was level70 (right before the new expansion) heroics were never AOE'd. They were very strict and were required to have some type of CC. I doubt you've even done a heroic and/or perhaps you are associating everyone with the top geared dorks of the server. Perhaps try a lesser developed server?
VoA2 isn't that hard. If people in your guild are dying.. just have them do the final boss in HOL a bunch of times, and then do the spider boss in OK. (the one where the dps needs to switch targets to the guardians). The biggest problem is with melee dps not getting out of the nova, and/or dps not switching targets to get the add before he enrages and wipes the group.
I really don't think VoA2 is a gear check at all. It is more an idiot check (especially for melee dps). The actual enrage timer on the add is very easy to beat if even half your dps switch targets, and the damage done by the boss is easy to heal if the melee dps don't get nova'd.
VOA2 is too hard for 95% of the PUG's (right now). I know it is new and people will "adjust", but the problem is the following.
VOA was a nice Raid to do after fighting in Lake Wintergrasp. It could be done with a random pickup group 90% of the time without any serious problems. You could even stay in your PvP gear.
Giving those guys that don't Raid a nice playing ground and for everyone else a lottery ticket to gear ONCE a week.
I only saw twice a Raid leader refusing people because of their gear (and even then I think the Raid leader was wrong).
VOA2 is more difficult in tactics (a real Raid boss) AND he hits harder AND the dps (melee) must be on top AND the healers must have 1900+ spell power. So the chance of downing him with a random pick up group THAT FORMS automatically after the world PvP of Lake Wintergrasp is perhaps 10%/20%, which is not good.
Now IF VOA2 was a different instance - not coupled witth VOA1 - I would agree. But now people PUG, try the second one, whipe and leave, because if they try VOA1 first, they are saved.
Result: second week now I am not downing VOA1 - nor 2 as my guild is giving priority to Ulduar. And so in this respect VOA2 misses its target: a public not doing much raiding but having a little fun after the massive PvP fun in Winter.
----
As a sidenote: the new Ulduar is simply the best raid instance Blizzard has ever made. The first long encounter with the vehicule combat is a nice twist and a much needed one. Great graphics techniques used here (for an mmorpg). I felt myself manning an anti air tank in WW2 at the beginning. Impressive.
I would put the order as Ulduar - and old Kara as 2 best "newer" 25 men Raids ( and NO the old 40 men content with all its dreadful mobs are not in that top 3). But Ulduar tops Kara with ease (have not seen the second part yet btw).
Ah cool I have similar views in general.
VoA boss 2 makes it hard to form a group for VoA, If you go for boss 2 first many will hesitate, they have died enough thru PUGs. If you go for boss 1 first, many won't want to join b/c they do not want to be saved after boss 1. So a bit harder to find a PUG or form one, and agree on which boss to start first. I agree, VoA 1 and 2 should be 2 instances.
VoA boss 2 is hard. Its new, and unless you use a good mod, it need time to learn how to predict the boss aoe, or find which add is buffed.
Ulduar is indeed fun. The tank boss and the sequel before him is a total new way of doing things. Says who blizzard makes every boss the same. Riding different kinds of vehicles, getting cannoned to the top of the boss (which is a tank) is fun.
The seond boss is a fiasco for PUGs. The PUGs I joined never got to kill the pairs of giants, which are trash. They kill the tanks faster than a 25man Naxx boss. I feel they hit the tanks almost as hard as 25man petchwork. Interesting, after killing one of them many times (wipe before killing the first), we got an epic drop which is stunningly great.
So the PUG I joined split up and we said, the pair of giants are actually boss mobs in disguise.
40 man world dragon raids could be fun but that isn't the reason I posted..
I too am not thrilled with the "AOE" 5 man's anymore.. 5 man used to be about kill orders and CC.. now what they did was make the entire dungeon run about AOE tanking.. and AOE dps'ing..
I miss the old days when CC was something to desire in a run.. NOT required.. but desired .. oh well
I think you sink your own viewpoint without even realizing it. How hard could heroics be if people skipped them and cleared naxx? The ease of difficulty in naxx didn't cause the problems with ae damage, it the opposite effect.
My alliance side guild is filled with ultra casual people that struggled with T5 burning crusade content, but we were clearing heroics within the first few weeks of the release and weeks before we went to naxx. My horde side guild walked right through them and never blinked. That isn't to say they were not well designed dungeons with fun content, but blizzard totally messed up the balance of the game with the expansion and all the revamps they did. It is painfully obvious the balance wasn't tested right and the AE threat and damage really trivializes most of the content. That included heroics and naxx.
Blizzard went through a lot of trouble to give every viable spec some sort of crowd control so they could fill a position in a group. They also did the same with AOE damage and threat generation for tanks, which in the end proved to be a much much much quicker route to clearing content with a far greater degree of success.
I think you sink your own viewpoint without even realizing it. How hard could heroics be if people skipped them and cleared naxx? The ease of difficulty in naxx didn't cause the problems with ae damage, it the opposite effect.
My alliance side guild is filled with ultra casual people that struggled with T5 burning crusade content, but we were clearing heroics within the first few weeks of the release and weeks before we went to naxx. My horde side guild walked right through them and never blinked. That isn't to say they were not well designed dungeons with fun content, but blizzard totally messed up the balance of the game with the expansion and all the revamps they did. It is painfully obvious the balance wasn't tested right and the AE threat and damage really trivializes most of the content. That included heroics and naxx.
Blizzard went through a lot of trouble to give every viable spec some sort of crowd control so they could fill a position in a group. They also did the same with AOE damage and threat generation for tanks, which in the end proved to be a much much much quicker route to clearing content with a far greater degree of success.
Put it this way. Once your guild had 25 people who were level 80, they could almost clear naxx25 in blues. They were getting iLevel 213 and 226 items as drops since a few weeks after wrath launched. Within a month of wrath being launched, most people who were in raiding guilds had half their gear as ilvl 213-226 and the rest probably ilvl 200 epics from reps and heroics.
Naxx25 basically had the same gear requirements to 'succeed' as heroics did, but Naxx25 gave much better rewards. If Naxx25 had been harder, players would have been running heroics for a longer time and being lucky to be wearing ilvl200 epics. But instead of that, they were running herioics in ilvl 226 gear and overgearing it.. which lead to uber tanks and the ability to AOE too much stuff.
Players in blues or rep epics (ilvl 200) cannot AOE through heroics. The only people who can do it are people who outgear heroics. Naxx25 being so easy just made that happen very quickly for a lot of people.
I think you sink your own viewpoint without even realizing it. How hard could heroics be if people skipped them and cleared naxx? The ease of difficulty in naxx didn't cause the problems with ae damage, it the opposite effect.
My alliance side guild is filled with ultra casual people that struggled with T5 burning crusade content, but we were clearing heroics within the first few weeks of the release and weeks before we went to naxx. My horde side guild walked right through them and never blinked. That isn't to say they were not well designed dungeons with fun content, but blizzard totally messed up the balance of the game with the expansion and all the revamps they did. It is painfully obvious the balance wasn't tested right and the AE threat and damage really trivializes most of the content. That included heroics and naxx.
Blizzard went through a lot of trouble to give every viable spec some sort of crowd control so they could fill a position in a group. They also did the same with AOE damage and threat generation for tanks, which in the end proved to be a much much much quicker route to clearing content with a far greater degree of success.
Put it this way. Once your guild had 25 people who were level 80, they could almost clear naxx25 in blues. They were getting iLevel 213 and 226 items as drops since a few weeks after wrath launched. Within a month of wrath being launched, most people who were in raiding guilds had half their gear as ilvl 213-226 and the rest probably ilvl 200 epics from reps and heroics.
Naxx25 basically had the same gear requirements to 'succeed' as heroics did, but Naxx25 gave much better rewards. If Naxx25 had been harder, players would have been running heroics for a longer time and being lucky to be wearing ilvl200 epics. But instead of that, they were running herioics in ilvl 226 gear and overgearing it.. which lead to uber tanks and the ability to AOE too much stuff.
Players in blues or rep epics (ilvl 200) cannot AOE through heroics. The only people who can do it are people who outgear heroics. Naxx25 being so easy just made that happen very quickly for a lot of people.
Not true, unless they are very skilled and select the very best blue, best planning. Even then a full blue suite might lack the hp, armor, AP, or SP to get the job done.
You cannot provide enuf dps to take down many of the bosses before boss goes berserk/rage. A tank in blue will not be able to stand the boss specials, from petchwork to whichever you want to say. A good team can clear a lot of trash, but many of the boss encounters are simply gear check.
You say naxx and heroics have the same difficulty level and that people had an easy time in naxx, but then say heroics are harder and only easy if someone raided?
My guild had no trouble using area effect spells in heroics just like we had no trouble using the same thing in heroics and we are super casual. It is fairly easy to hit level 80 and walk through most heroics with aoe, even without naxx level gear. I know, because I did it.
You say naxx and heroics have the same difficulty level and that people had an easy time in naxx, but then say heroics are harder and only easy if someone raided?
My guild had no trouble using area effect spells in heroics just like we had no trouble using the same thing in heroics and we are super casual. It is fairly easy to hit level 80 and walk through most heroics with aoe, even without naxx level gear. I know, because I did it.
Well not all Heroics can be brute-d thru. Many of the events require team work and coordination, such as when to dodge the pounding of the boss (AN), or the tank dies, what mob to kill first and not just blind aoe, as some trash mobs does not take tank taunts and go straight for healers. Aoeing will not kill them fast enuf b4 they make it to the healer (the event prior to the first boss of AN). In OK, you need to focus fire on guardian when they comes out, for the first boss. Heroics are easy now, b/c we all got the winning solution out, or a cheat trick to bypass it. WoW is kind enuf not to change the behaviour of bosses, or this feeling of easy going will suddenly change, to the dismal of many.
This said, AoEing works for most trash now, as the tanks have pretty good AoE taunting ability, sometimes aoe taunting for like a few seconds, which, with 3 AoE DPS, practically means full clearance.
I really don't object if Blizzard want to add a super-hard mode that requires 40 people given that it does not take a lot out of their development resource to develop content for the majority of us.
However, it seems that there are so so few people who want 40 man raid that this is NOT going to happen. Just getting 40 people show up at one time is a major chore.
There is a reason why a lot of the 10/25 man raids are anow pugable. If not, 95% of the players will never see the content. And the OP needs to distinguish between a large (40 man) raid and a difficult one. Those two things are independent. Raids on hard modes are HARD. It is not a cake walk, for example, to do 3 drakes, in OS.
Indeed, as in TBC, 5 man Heroics can be very demanding. Even guildies having Sunwell on farm sometimes wipe in MT.
40man does not mean difficulity, it just means chore, and trouble finding a time slot when 40 guildies are free and can show up.
Fact is, 10man ulduar now is hard, even for 10man with very good gear. 25man ulduar, well ... . AND, Icecrown Citadel is coming.
Blizzard has publicly stated that they plan to introduce a difficult 5 man, that will present a challenge similar to Magister's terrace.
So CC will almost certainly be needed.
However, personally I'd expect it to work out like the first MgT. The hardcore and skillful will go there a lot in the first few months, farm everything they need, and then abandon it. After that it will get a rep as a pug killer, and no-one will visit it.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
You say naxx and heroics have the same difficulty level and that people had an easy time in naxx, but then say heroics are harder and only easy if someone raided?
My guild had no trouble using area effect spells in heroics just like we had no trouble using the same thing in heroics and we are super casual. It is fairly easy to hit level 80 and walk through most heroics with aoe, even without naxx level gear. I know, because I did it.
Well not all Heroics can be brute-d thru. Many of the events require team work and coordination, such as when to dodge the pounding of the boss (AN), or the tank dies, what mob to kill first and not just blind aoe, as some trash mobs does not take tank taunts and go straight for healers. Aoeing will not kill them fast enuf b4 they make it to the healer (the event prior to the first boss of AN). In OK, you need to focus fire on guardian when they comes out, for the first boss. Heroics are easy now, b/c we all got the winning solution out, or a cheat trick to bypass it. WoW is kind enuf not to change the behaviour of bosses, or this feeling of easy going will suddenly change, to the dismal of many.
This said, AoEing works for most trash now, as the tanks have pretty good AoE taunting ability, sometimes aoe taunting for like a few seconds, which, with 3 AoE DPS, practically means full clearance.
Most boss fights are the same difficulty they were in the last expansion, but to the original posters point no one really shines during a boss fight so to speak.
The dungeons themselves are cakewalk excluding the bosses. Just AOE through everything where it used to take group coordination and some small amount of tactics. I would argue that even most boss fights are to easy due to the insane power level of characters as a result of blizzard screwing up the balance mechanics of players dps/hps/mitigation/threat, but that is another issue all together.
I wouldn't mind seeing 100 people open world raids like Public Quests in WAR. However the 40 man instanced raids as we know them, I don't ever want them back it's so frustrating and too time consuming and not fun.
Clearly someone who didn't enter Ulduar lately....
So far the "myth of screw ups" being blown away by the new raised Blizzard bar.
After Ulduar's first boss encounter, you can really say that dungeons on mmo's will never be the same again.
Next comment of a would be designer should first visit Ulduar.
Next.
What does the RAID zone of ulduar have to do with the DUNGEONS for 5 mans? You do know what we are talking about right? 1 new raid dungoen that is on par with past expansions doesn't effect the difficulty level of DUNGEONS in lich king. They are far to easy and one new raid zone doesn't make up for that. It does not change the difficulty of the entire expansion nor raise the bar. It is one raid zone, lets see how the rest of the expansion turns out before waving the banner of difficulty.
As for knowing where I have and have not been, please stop being so presumptious about anyone that has a viewpoint that doesn't agree with your own.
Murmur was never really tough, people were just moronic.
I can't count the number of times we wiped on him because the ranged DPS didn't know what the fuck to do.
basically the game is now more of a story game than before. Its more about everyone getting to do everything, just like it would be in a single player game per say. Everyone levels up, everyone has the option to read the story through quests, and then everyone completes all the dungeons and sees what happens to their favorite characters. Its not about progression anymore, its not about trying to kill something to get to the next fight. Its about everyone getting to do everything,
IMO its not fun, its guided entertainment like watching TV or playing a linear single player game. I dont really play single player games, but there are lots of people who do! I would much rather struggle to kill a boss and then have the opportunity to get to the next fight, only to have to struggle again to maybe get to the next one. This to me is much better than having content come out and knowing beforehand than i will kill everything.
Yes I did more than my fair share of burning crusade content.
One of the major themes in this thread is about how easy the lich king heroics are compared to old world heroics. Raids also to an extent.
oldschool, hah! you talking about oldschool in same gategory with world of warcraft.
besides in m0llys opinion in all this is screw the 40 man screw the 25 man thers too much " i need to go loo, i need to do this and that" and when everyhting is organized too much its not fun anymore where theres no room for mistakes the fun disappears. i mean its game and entertainment and when its too serious wheres the fun then?!
only choise is to put these 40 players in same place would be before burning crusade ( meaning town raids , like crossroads etc ) and normal pvp battlegrounding, wich would be one feature added from my side, just plain map with couple of mountains and pure killing another factiona nd whos stading tall last wins, simple is that!
you talk about 40 man raids means you dont even want a hard game instead you are asking easy life in wow pressing few buttons and do what some teenage guil/raidleader told you, you want that to be your gaming? sadness
If you actually read the thread you would have read the original posters points about 2 things (thus the very apted written title of this thread)
So please stop pointing to ulduar as if it is the crowning pinnacle of this topic or at least try to follow the thread before you come trail blazing into the topic underlining and citing things that have no relationship to the issues being discussed and disproving my "theories" whatever you think they are.
Despite your best efforts to say otherwise, lich king is far to easy. Rant and rave about whatever you like, but the overwhelming majority of players are in agreement on that INCLUDING BLIZZARD as can be noted in many of their Q/A sessions where they admit the game is to easy. So you may claim blizzard this and blizzard that, but even blizzard admitted they messed up the power balance in the expansion. Cast whatever shadows you want on my "theories", but you are wrong and blizzards admittance shows you to be wrong.
For the record, I could f***ing care less about one dungeon 6 months after release for an expansion that was in the works for 2 years. I would have expected more content or better balance, but not missing both. It was one of my bigger fears when I saw just how much blizzard was trying to change while putting out an expansion.
You are the only one talking about ulduar. The rest of the poster are talking about dungeons and their heroics in lich king, not raids. They are talking about how easy the dungeons overall, some indluding many of the bosses.
Yet you seem to think that one raid dungeon 6 months after release that isn't balanced somehow negates the rest of the game. Please note I never said ulduar was to easy, that is you fault for implying that I did. I said my guild is further along in ulduar now than we were in burning crusade raids during a similar time period.
Aside from that, you are the only one pointing to ulduar as hard and ignoring the rest of the game as if 1 raid zone somehow averages everything else out. The rest of the game is far to easy and just in case you missed it BLIZZARD AGREES! Did you hear that clearly enough, even blizzard admits the rest of the game is to easy.
As for the rest of your speculation about my experiences, I have nothing to prove to you. I can speak from experience and sorry if I don't struggle with content the same way you do. That doesn't mean I have not experienced anything.
Just to point out something funny about the way you make assumption about people. At one point above you say dungeons are only to easy for people who have epic gear that camped for months in previous expansions. Then you turn around and accuse me of never experiencing epic content prior to lich king.
Which is it?
I do not understand why Zorn is so defensive. Content exists across four rough dimensions in WoW (PvE):
- Single-man/co-op such as quest lines and the like
- Small group content - mainly 5-man instances but also some quest lines or parts there of
- 10-man raid content
- 25-man raid content
Now, WotLK out of the box had basically zero scaling of difficulty along these four categories and hence basically everyone had cleared the game by January. We are not talking about serious hard-core raiders - we are talking about average Joe's playing the game. When then Ulduar comes out it gives new bones to the 10/25-man raid crowd. But let's face it - it was very very late even with Blizzard standards and it does not help single-man/co-op players and 5-man enthusiasts at all. Blizzard missed the mark with difficulty scaling completely in WotLK. That is it really. And the problem with that is that the content does not last long enough when that happens.
This is what also something that Blizzard has admitted so I do not know what or who you are fighting for Zorn.
40 man raids were awful! Yes lets let Jimmy the Tulip the level 60 rogue auto attack and eat a sandwich while everyone else busts their ass to get to the end and when the loot rolls happen he rolls better and gets ultra rare T2 trash drop while everyone else that busted their nuts comes out with a hide or nothing at all. Oh better yet lets go with the user created DKP system and let Jimmy the Tulip rub his balls and auto attack everything while the tank dies for him and the other 38 members and have him grab nice loot just because hes there and auto attacking. You cant tell if he is auto attacking or just doing absoutly nothing or maybe hes just spamming backstab while he watches The George Lopez show. At any rate he can be an anchor on the raid and he gets nice crap and people who are actually good and trying can walk away with nothing. That was whats wrong with 40 man raids and the current MMO loot system. WAR actually cured this somewhat with the PQ loot system which they neglected to add into end game dungeons. Although WAR fails because of their random as balls RvR loot system that lets someone just as useless randomly win loot in that too.
40 man raids were awful! Yes lets let Jimmy the Tulip the level 60 rogue auto attack and eat a sandwich while everyone else busts their ass to get to the end and when the loot rolls happen he rolls better and gets ultra rare T2 trash drop while everyone else that busted their nuts comes out with a hide or nothing at all. Oh better yet lets go with the user created DKP system and let Jimmy the Tulip rub his balls and auto attack everything while the tank dies for him and the other 38 members and have him grab nice loot just because hes there and auto attacking. You cant tell if he is auto attacking or just doing absoutly nothing or maybe hes just spamming backstab while he watches The George Lopez show. At any rate he can be an anchor on the raid and he gets nice crap and people who are actually good and trying can walk away with nothing. That was whats wrong with 40 man raids and the current MMO loot system. WAR actually cured this somewhat with the PQ loot system which they neglected to add into end game dungeons. Although WAR fails because of their random as balls RvR loot system that lets someone just as useless randomly win loot in that too.
Because you are better than everyone else
Well damage/healing meters are the ultimate judge of who pulls their weight. The new ulduar instance is actually challenging for every role including tanks. On top of the 10 and 25man versions each boss can be defeated under hard mode circumstances which result in better loot. So instead of finding 40 average players, you need 25 pretty good players to down some of the hard mode bosses.