I just dont understand how folks can trivialize its success. Oh its scifi, so what? 300,000 people find it worthy of subscriptions.
This is like me saying wow is a niche pvp game, since most of the people raid. While it does have pvp, it cant be considered mainstream since the majority of players dont pvp. To me it seems that you argument is flawed.
incorrect. First, there are few people who raids in WOW. Before WOTLK, we are talking about single digit percentage (well documented.. that is why raid is made easy in WOTLK).
Second, just count the amount of players on pvp services in WOW. That is a LOT (millions) more than 300k.
Originally posted by Pyrostasis I just dont understand how folks can trivialize its success. Oh its scifi, so what? 300,000 people find it worthy of subscriptions.
A hesitancy to call something mainstream hardly qualifies as a trivialization of a company's success. Would that I had such lousy success with my company.
Also, realize that it is fairly standard for EVE Online players to have multiple subscriptions. I'm quite comfortable calling the number of people subscribing to EVE Online as at least a third lower than the pure subscription number. Still a roaring success, but 200,000 doesn't qualify as a mainstream success in my opinion.
And that's all it is, an opinion.
Originally posted by Pyrostasis This is like me saying wow is a niche pvp game, since most of the people raid. While it does have pvp, it cant be considered mainstream since the majority of players dont pvp. To me it seems that you argument is flawed.
It's undoubtedly more practical to consider game features for the breadth of their appeal rather than an entire game.
Sub numbers are not what make a MMO mainstream, it has more to do with its percevibility of ease to get new subcribers in than anything. More so the numbers in EVE are a changing of subcribers mindset from easier MMO's to a more challenging base and since a major part of those numbers are some that pay for 2 or 3 accounts.
As anyone who has played EVE can attest to EVE is a MMO onto itself, nothing even comes as close to what EVE lets you do.
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
Thanks for the reply guys. I think the only problem I know I would have as a player is that full looting could cause reduction in quality battles. For example, if you have a lot to lose then you generally don't try to get caught by yourself or making mistakes. Thus in most of the examples I've seen, people actually PvP less in those types of systems and when they do fight, it's either in your advantage (20 versus 1) or nothing at all. Though again this is just my observations on similar systems without pulling that quote "well not enough would want to play it."
Post like this would make one wonder -- "Hey in a Full Loot PVP game no one has to kill mobs anymore? Is solo dead?"
Well the answer to that is the same for games like DFO/EVE, etc. Yes! You do still solo. And you still do plenty of pvp.
I hear some ask, "Well do people put on their sunday's best gear like in WoW and risk 1 vs 20?"
Um, would you run outside in the middle of a warzone by yourself in all your best equipment? No. In a full loot game you take 'meditated risks'. You will acquire intel before adventuring into a risky area. And yes, you are less likely to play Rambo. And you are a lot less likely to fight all night long pointlessly like you would in WoW and such.
You take careful premeditated risks. You acquire Intel on your enemies. You evaluate your chances and decide if you should flee. You do not waste your time nor theirs fighting a fight you cannot win
Victory Conditions. This firmly exist in full loot games. They are virtually non-existant in WoW clones
I do very much agree and that's the positive side to that type of system. No more running in blindly without knowing your enemies. This is a very good thing I think! Though the point I was making is not that you have to be more careful and thus it reduces PvP quality but how things tend to turn into gankfests. Although 20 on 1 is something you really can't prevent in almost any game, looting or not, high risks encourages more wolves to become sheep per-say. You must survive and the best way anyone can due that is by joining a guild, squad, or alliance and fight together. Generally that's the ideal thing all developers want, even with our game (group on group action) but it also factors on the intentions of the group too. If the game goes from decent solo PvP and great grouped PvP that's somewhat balanced in all cases to not logging on till being outnumbered or "we only gank 30 on 1" then you might notice a quality drop in PvP gameplay.
Course this is only going off the assumption of my own that most players like having a somewhat balanced playfield. Meaning you like having a good well-matched opponent to fight you, win or lose. Because if you didn't, that means all targets are easy to you and it really doesn't excite you anymore to PKILL (i.e.: like killing people 30 levels below you non-stop is normally going to be horrid after the 1,000 kill) OR very hard for you and that's not going to excite you anymore to PKILL. *smiles*
True, normally the more you risk, the more precautions one takes. However, I still see a lot of lone wolves in EVE. They prefer to use ships that are nice for soloing like Vagabonds. Sure, many times they may use a cloak and sometimes logout. That's not cool.
But its really bloody immersive. My heart pounds daily as a jump through a gate in 0.0. Immersion, it can make even a trivial task like killing a rat very exciting because I have to keep my eyes open for a ganker
Well everything is perspective I guess. Most of my UO guild left mid 1998... not due to PK's. The final straw was they somehow got into our tower... and it was fully looted. There were no secure chests. The thing is the tower was full of junk... there was absolutely nothing worth anything (thousands and thousands of pieces of junk).
So while it was "compromised" I dropped another house and the two of us that stayed (we had close to 100 members sadly) moved into that. When the ownership system went live I owned the tower (I had placed it and had the master key) and I changed the locks... -> back into tower.
So as Famine says some people aren't willing to risk anything.
That's why I say be upfront about your game.. market it to that market.
Also why I liked UO so much was... EvE does have one thing in common with other MMO's.. it had upward item progession. Their are more and more complex ships that cost more and more isk etc etc
UO you were either using magic items or crafted items. My expereince was that the best magic item in PvP was no better than the best crafted item (the ones that got "makers marks"). So there was to be technical no upward progression... To me that's where a mass market pvp full loot game needs to be.
Crafters can make items that are sold at a price point that is relatively low yet is mostly profit.. and due to the looting there is a large turn over thus long term sustained crafting market.. .to me that was what made UO so awesome...
This obviously exists in EvE as well I just think at times some of the "upward" items being so valuable is an issue. What is the point of having things you don't use.. because you are afraid to lose them. The point from my perspective is you should use the things you have... you may lose them.. but you can replace them (rather easily). I always had at least 5 complete sets of gear in my UO bank...
Altho when I killed a guy and found my gear on their body.. it was a good time.
I just dont understand how folks can trivialize its success. Oh its scifi, so what? 300,000 people find it worthy of subscriptions.
A hesitancy to call something mainstream hardly qualifies as a trivialization of a company's success. Would that I had such lousy success with my company.
Also, realize that it is fairly standard for EVE Online players to have multiple subscriptions. I'm quite comfortable calling the number of people subscribing to EVE Online as at least a third lower than the pure subscription number. Still a roaring success, but 200,000 doesn't qualify as a mainstream success in my opinion.
And that's all it is, an opinion.
Originally posted by Pyrostasis
This is like me saying wow is a niche pvp game, since most of the people raid. While it does have pvp, it cant be considered mainstream since the majority of players dont pvp. To me it seems that you argument is flawed.
It's undoubtedly more practical to consider game features for the breadth of their appeal rather than an entire game.
Its fairly common for dual boxers to appear in *any* MMO. In EQ, people used to run them so they could powerlevel their alts via healers/buffers. In city of heroes, people would essentially do this for the same purpose. In WoW, one guy 'tried' to run an entire raid by himself with what 25-40 accounts?
Regardless, to a publisher, why would they care if one person has 20 accounts going as long as they collect $$ from this guy. CCP is smart for running the discount specials for dual boxers and recognizing they have *always* been commonplace in MMORPGs especially sandbox ones where only 1 character is often viable
Sub numbers are not what make a MMO mainstream, it has more to do with its percevibility of ease to get new subcribers in than anything. More so the numbers in EVE are a changing of subcribers mindset from easier MMO's to a more challenging base and since a major part of those numbers are some that pay for 2 or 3 accounts.
As anyone who has played EVE can attest to EVE is a MMO onto itself, nothing even comes as close to what EVE lets you do.
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
Fun is subjective to the person playing the MMO. I found many fun things to do in EVE, be it mining ops, mission running, or invention. Just because you don't find it fun does not mean that someone else won't either.
FC-FamineFuncom Community ManagerMemberUncommonPosts: 278
Originally posted by Antarious
Originally posted by PatchDay
Originally posted by FC-Famine
Originally posted by PatchDay
Originally posted by FC-Famine
So as Famine says some people aren't willing to risk anything.
That's why I say be upfront about your game.. market it to that market.
Yeah, that's what it pretty much comes down to in my opinion. This isn't even touching the uncontrollable issues like server lag or client lag. Full looting means everything is gone from 1 death. It doesn't even have to mean that you lost the match because you were not good enough. It could mean you lost the match because your ISP dropped during the battle and when you logged on the next 20 minutes you notice you died while link dead. Things like that as well other client side issues (hardware, user configuration, and etc) can't be controlled on the developers end. This is what I feel is another major drawback to the system of full looting.
I think I made some strong points against having such a system. Don't get me wrong, I would love for us to adapt it as well other to also adapt it more only because that's my type of game play too. However, in order to rush in new systems or understand feedback. You also have to look at the bad sides to everything and weigh them against each other.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
Sub numbers are not what make a MMO mainstream, it has more to do with its percevibility of ease to get new subcribers in than anything. More so the numbers in EVE are a changing of subcribers mindset from easier MMO's to a more challenging base and since a major part of those numbers are some that pay for 2 or 3 accounts.
As anyone who has played EVE can attest to EVE is a MMO onto itself, nothing even comes as close to what EVE lets you do.
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
heh and here I thought I was the only one who saw this in EVE. Guess I was wrong. Only the "fun" part I kinda disagree with. There is a minority of players who in fact get a lot of fun over the exploitation etc that occurs in EVE and that is why they play it. Someone said once to me that they didn't consider it "bad" or "wrong" because it wasn't "real" . If that makes any sense and "hey at least I get it all over with in a game and dont do it in real life". Unfortunately the amount of actual scamming for real money is over the top and makes me run far far away lol. Its almost like its taken farming of fake money for profit and real world cash conversion to a whole new level.
In any event this is exactly why EVE will never be mainstream as this type of gameplay and I use that word with some hesitation is only enjoyed by a small section of the population relatively speaking.
I would assume mainstream means what the majority of people enjoy and do with regards to gameplay on a daily bases. Unfortunately numbers show despite the protests of many "old school" gamers that casual gaming and having pure fun is more popular and the mainstream. People want to be entertained not get a second job or in the case of EVE endure some wierd kind of abuse while trying to mess with others and possibly exploit a corp and then sell all the stuff they stole for real money to some other guy. Open pvp will and can probably be popular, but destroying someones achievments wont ever be popular. The average person usually plays for fun and to achieve goals and accumulate what I would call "gold stars" that being titles, loot and things to show off in the form of rewards for their adventures. They dont want to give it up 5 minutes after they got their new shiny bauble.
I think my most memorable moment in EVE all maybe 2 weeks of trying to figure out why people played and enjoyed being a 2 dimensional cut out flying around in what is mostly empty space was assasinating my corps leader after the corp got ripped off for the 3rd time. After I had spent an evening mining and stockpiling with others only to find it all gone the next day about the only fun thing was getting my revenge and blowing up his ship and hanging his corps in a canister ... the rest of the two weeks was borring as hell, menotinous and consisted of waiting for a timer to expire for training skill ups and flying a dull borring empty space wishing I could be 3 dimensional and get out and explore the space stations and look in the stores which looked semi interesting the way the stations were set up. So in two weeks I had about 5 minutes of actual fun and it was at someone elses expense and then I left .. wondering what was so good about that game
Sub numbers are not what make a MMO mainstream, it has more to do with its percevibility of ease to get new subcribers in than anything. More so the numbers in EVE are a changing of subcribers mindset from easier MMO's to a more challenging base and since a major part of those numbers are some that pay for 2 or 3 accounts.
As anyone who has played EVE can attest to EVE is a MMO onto itself, nothing even comes as close to what EVE lets you do.
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
If you ask someone that plays Eve what they do in the game everyone will have a different answer for you.
Yet you say In eve there's nothing to do? If I ask a WoW player the same question they will say Arena, Raids or rolling alts.
If you weren't a troll I would actually list the hundreds if not thousands of ways to play Eve but since you seem to actually think that Zero Punctuation Review was anything more then a Joke I wont bother.
Sub numbers are not what make a MMO mainstream, it has more to do with its percevibility of ease to get new subcribers in than anything. More so the numbers in EVE are a changing of subcribers mindset from easier MMO's to a more challenging base and since a major part of those numbers are some that pay for 2 or 3 accounts.
As anyone who has played EVE can attest to EVE is a MMO onto itself, nothing even comes as close to what EVE lets you do.
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
Josher why discuss a game you know absolutely nothing about? You obviously don't like Eve. That is ok, but your rant goes far beyond that into mouthing complete nonsense. Saying it is not mainstream, when it has more subs than most of the mainstream MMO's is wearing blinders. Wake up to reality, it is the leading sci-fi MMO at present with a significant player base.
Whether you like Eve is not the point. The point is a lot people do and have great fun playing the game.
As to the main topic, a full loot FFA-PVP game can be mainstream if it has significant limits on those that want to be ass hats. With significant consequences, people will play it. Problem is, games like this are done by devs who can't figure this out, ie. like Aventurine. Clueless devs like this give this model a very bad name.
If you ask someone that plays Eve what they do in the game everyone will have a different answer for you. Yet you say In eve there's nothing to do? If I ask a WoW player the same question they will say Arena, Raids or rolling alts. If you weren't a troll I would actually list the hundreds if not thousands of ways to play Eve but since you seem to actually think that Zero Punctuation Review was anything more then a Joke I wont bother. I'm glad you don't play Eve.
If you ask peopole what they do it comes back to the same few things. You buy stuiff, you sell stuff, you travel someplace, you kill something and you build something. It all comes down to that. Every MMO lets you do it. Just because you think what you do MATTERS more in Eve, doesn't make it any different. Its still the same exact activity. Just because in Eve, transporting is something to do, it doesn't make it a fun acitivty. Same with negotiating a virtual ceasefire or anything RP related. I can think of 100s of things to do in WOW as well when you start including every little detail. I bet you'd consider gaurding your space station an acitivity even if NO ONE ever attacks you. Sitting around for 4-12 hours because you got a tip from a forum thread on some clans website that the Goons were coming, would proboably be considering "something to do" in Eve's world. Here in MAINSTREAM land, thats called sitting around twidlling your thumbs=) Transporting something would be considered work. But hey, if people enjoy that, fantastic. Good for them. But it ain't mainstream.
Of couse Zero Punctuation is a joke, but if you can't see some of the truth in it, your sense of humor is GONE=) That review is exactly why Eve will never be considered mainstream. If you can't understand that, you're proof positive of Eve's lack of mainstream appeal. By the way, I'm quite glad I don't play Eve either...It frees up time to live my real life instead of a virtual one=) That was a joke!
I think it depends on stuff like rarity of items, how hard it is to get items, quantities available. For example, when UO first came out tons of items were always being made by the player base, there weren't really any +20 Str items around and everyone was using the same stuff. Things were easily replaced, getting into a new set of decent armor was as easy as replenishing your reagents from the magic shops. As soon as you introduce "Leet" items into the mix people are more worried about losing the items and they just sit in the bank. You have to find a balance on not making items too uber and it could work.
If games introduced something like a global item upgrade for armor like advancements or new discoveries with materials. Phase out older weaker stuff and the next items could be slowly introduced but not give as much of a boost. Games now are turning into item storage and the next big stat boost item grind. People start looking the same because there are large difference in stat boosts are only on 1 item.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Yes, but first drop that idiotic system of "leveling". Go back to skill-based RPG, if you swing your sword a lot you get better in swinging your sword. Same for magic and crafting. Make most of the decent items craftable but also create loot dropped items which are slightly better, or make craftable weapons better by adding gems/upgrades/magic/whatever...
Create a guildsystem which can form alliances, put some thought in the PK system, create a murderer system with cons for the player but also some pro's, create a bountyhunter system, and make sure it isnt exploitable... I don't like it but do create safezones, ala EVE, if *your* game is uberlyawesomelygreat people want to play it... make a shitload of content for carebears but also give them the oppurtunity to go PvPing, the hardcore PK/PvPer will live in the "outlands" anyways... (thus make good pvp content)
It's not that hard, just don't expect you will create a "WoW-Killer" because alot of the new MMO generation EQ2/WOW are dumbed down and less social then we where when we started, they just seek a quick *epiclewt* fix, do the same thing multiple times a week and stand in the capital bragging with their "Epic Sword Of I Have No Life And Raid 6 Times A Week".
(Sorry if I sound harsh, but I hold a grudge against carebears/raiders/WoWkiddies because I hold THEM responsible for destroying the genre, not the developers, they just listened)
*edit*
seriously, which moron invented the term "Dailys", wtf repeatable ENDGAME quests? Which are so fricking easy and are absolutly not dynamic or fun???... and even a bigger question, why are the WOW kiddies playing them?? are they all heroin addicts or what? What happend to the ROLE PLAYING GAME in MMORPG. Just call the genre MMO Bragging Morons With No life!!!! seriously, I get so pissed if I remember how epic and intense the older MMo's where before the genre got populair... people actually socialised, helped each other, played together... pick a random MMO, go to the global chat and see for yourself...
The first steps towards making full loot mainstream I believe were taken by Mythic with the player corspe being lootable but rolled on a loot table in Warhammer. While it's not full loot it's a baby step in the direction of getting the mainstream into the idea of looting a fallen player. The next step would probably be making consumables lootable from a player corpse followed by the looting of 1 or 2 equipment sots eventually graduating to full loot.
Thats the key generaly you have to get people used to an idea by implimenting it in various steps along the way to get the mainstream educated about what to expect. Right now if you throw full loot in their face they will probably shy away but if you get them to play various steps along the way before you hand it to them it just might work eventually. Then again you may very well find people balking at certain steps and that means you probably have to stay at that level for a while to get them more used to the idea before moving forward.
Can ful loot game be successful now? Depends how you define success. If by successful you mean can pay the bills and have enough left over to keep paying the devs to make new stuff yes I think there is enough of a market to acheive that. If you mean big enough to rival WOW then nope not at this time then again who knows what would happen if Blizzards new MMO is a FFA full loot game and are they arrogant enough in their belief they can do no wrong in the eyes of their fanbase.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
( Don't bring EvE into this discussion, as the style and the gameplay features don't really allow it to slide into the realm of mainstream. ) So, yeah, guys, what do you think? Will this ever work within a mainstream MMO? ( Example: UO ) Or, will the general d**kheadedness of your average player drive away any new players and just turn the game into a giant deathmatch game? What do you all think?
I think the main reason it wouldn't work can be boiled down to game design,now to get good gear in game you need to work for it and very hard I might add from games like wow in where you could kill hundreds of difficult mobs in the hopes of getting 1 purple drop or lotro where you have to level up a legendary weapon for countless of in game hours.
These games are designed by the devs to maximize your playing and sub time by making most everything a ravaging time sink and as technology stands there are far too easy ways for you to lose the goods you worked months to gain.
I think it started when devs discovered that lot's of people when on the losing end of a fight would just quickly go ld so to alleviate that they added a feature which insures you stay in game world for some 30 seconds in most cases and though I agree wholeheartedly that it's a weak tactic to avoid a loss it more often than not could actually be a technical reason you were disconnected from the server and there could be a myriad of reasons for that actually happening the least of which is a person attempting to avoid a loss in battle.
Now if I bought myself an aston martin in real life should I expect that just because someone else wanted it and could take it from me that there is nothing I could do about it?
I could live with full loot pvp in a game if there was something just as equally balanced against a person who indulged in a play style that basically allowed them to build themselves up simply by taking from others which we know in any game like that there would be multitudes of people doing it.
So in essence it is just far too easy to exploit a system like that and far too few consequences in game for those that do exploit the game in such manners for it to be worth it to play something like that I'm not against the existence of a game like that but I can say with a high level of certainty I wouldn't be a player of it.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
seriously, which moron invented the term "Dailys", wtf repeatable ENDGAME quests? Which are so fricking easy and are absolutly not dynamic or fun???... and even a bigger question, why are the WOW kiddies playing them?? are they all heroin addicts or what? What happend to the ROLE PLAYING GAME in MMORPG. Just call the genre MMO Bragging Morons With No life!!!! seriously, I get so pissed if I remember how epic and intense the older MMo's where before the genre got populair... people actually socialised, helped each other, played together... pick a random MMO, go to the global chat and see for yourself... the genre is doomed...
Daily quests are simply a replacement for endgame gold/reputation farming. Instead of going out and farming the same mobs over and over, you now do a few simple tasks each day and then go do other stuff. You do not have to camp the same spots all the time competing with kill stealers and other bored players. If the daily is a kill quest or a dungeon quest you can group up with others so the task is easier and you can help out others. It is a lightweight mechanic that replaces the need for engaing in 'zombie play'. While still lacking Dailies are definetly more RP then old school farming.
seriously, which moron invented the term "Dailys", wtf repeatable ENDGAME quests? Which are so fricking easy and are absolutly not dynamic or fun???... and even a bigger question, why are the WOW kiddies playing them?? are they all heroin addicts or what? What happend to the ROLE PLAYING GAME in MMORPG. Just call the genre MMO Bragging Morons With No life!!!! seriously, I get so pissed if I remember how epic and intense the older MMo's where before the genre got populair... people actually socialised, helped each other, played together... pick a random MMO, go to the global chat and see for yourself... the genre is doomed...
Daily quests are simply a replacement for endgame gold/reputation farming. Instead of going out and farming the same mobs over and over, you now do a few simple tasks each day and then go do other stuff. You do not have to camp the same spots all the time competing with kill stealers and other bored players. If the daily is a kill quest or a dungeon quest you can group up with others so the task is easier and you can help out others. It is a lightweight mechanic that replaces the need for engaing in 'zombie play'. While still lacking Dailies are definetly more RP then old school farming.
And there you have it...
End-Game in modern MMO's are jobs, not epic adventures.
Ultima Online was the dawn of an era for MMORPG's, and EVE is also classified as Full Loot PVP if I'm not mistaken. And they are both mainstream MMO's and do very well.
IMHO, It's not for everyone, it's a matter of taste and playstyle. If you don't mind losing the gear your spent 10 hours grinding for then go for it. If you like to sneak up and grief someone then maybe it;s for you, of course if you just like to have a challenging fight versus someone that isn;t driven by AI (and usually bad) programming like me, then do it.
seriously, which moron invented the term "Dailys", wtf repeatable ENDGAME quests? Which are so fricking easy and are absolutly not dynamic or fun???... and even a bigger question, why are the WOW kiddies playing them?? are they all heroin addicts or what? What happend to the ROLE PLAYING GAME in MMORPG. Just call the genre MMO Bragging Morons With No life!!!! seriously, I get so pissed if I remember how epic and intense the older MMo's where before the genre got populair... people actually socialised, helped each other, played together... pick a random MMO, go to the global chat and see for yourself... the genre is doomed...
Daily quests are simply a replacement for endgame gold/reputation farming. Instead of going out and farming the same mobs over and over, you now do a few simple tasks each day and then go do other stuff. You do not have to camp the same spots all the time competing with kill stealers and other bored players. If the daily is a kill quest or a dungeon quest you can group up with others so the task is easier and you can help out others. It is a lightweight mechanic that replaces the need for engaing in 'zombie play'. While still lacking Dailies are definetly more RP then old school farming.
And there you have it...
End-Game in modern MMO's are jobs, not epic adventures.
Farming for gold is as 'old-school' as you can get. It definetly did not qualify as 'epic adventures' in older MMORPGs. Dailies are a less tedious replacement that feels less like a job and as such has more 'epic' feeling then old-school gold farming. They are not that high on the 'epicness' scale but are a definite improvement over the old way of earning gold to support your endgame activities.
So as Famine says some people aren't willing to risk anything.
That's why I say be upfront about your game.. market it to that market.
Yeah, that's what it pretty much comes down to in my opinion. This isn't even touching the uncontrollable issues like server lag or client lag. Full looting means everything is gone from 1 death. It doesn't even have to mean that you lost the match because you were not good enough. It could mean you lost the match because your ISP dropped during the battle and when you logged on the next 20 minutes you notice you died while link dead. Things like that as well other client side issues (hardware, user configuration, and etc) can't be controlled on the developers end. This is what I feel is another major drawback to the system of full looting.
I think I made some strong points against having such a system. Don't get me wrong, I would love for us to adapt it as well other to also adapt it more only because that's my type of game play too. However, in order to rush in new systems or understand feedback. You also have to look at the bad sides to everything and weigh them against each other.
CCP handles that issue well. If you can prove its a server side issue, you are refunded for your loss. But if it was client-side, you are not refunded for your loss. Since a guy can just unplug their router or something.
Not to mention games like EVE have insurance. Also, when the game determines the client has dropped connection for whatever reason, it automatically warps your ship away.
It's really, really, really hard to die due to issues with all of these layers of protection. I've been playing EVE for a long time and never had this issue
Ultima Online was the dawn of an era for MMORPG's, and EVE is also classified as Full Loot PVP if I'm not mistaken. And they are both mainstream MMO's and do very well. IMHO, It's not for everyone, it's a matter of taste and playstyle. If you don't mind losing the gear your spent 10 hours grinding for then go for it. If you like to sneak up and grief someone then maybe it;s for you, of course if you just like to have a challenging fight versus someone that isn;t driven by AI (and usually bad) programming like me, then do it.
Good post but let me elaborate for how WE Alliance players play EVE.
Most any good Alliance will have Ship Reimbursement programs. So they will reimburse you for your loss. Alliances in EVE make insanely rich ISK from rare 64 moons they conquer. With this ISK, they use it to fund further expansion and replacing losses.
So, for a modern full loot MMO, one should not be losing and losing ISK. Rather, your bank should will remain stable because your Corp/Alliance helps support your loss.
some corps/Alliance will also build your ships for you. Like captials and so forth
EVE is the correct way to make a full loot mainstream MMO in my opinion. Whereas Alliances conquer land, incur resources from the land they have taken over, and *pay* to build equipment and weapons for their soldiers. No pvper wants to mine asteroids all day to replace their loss. sure, I grind ISK but its for my personal bankroll. Ships I fly for my Alliance I expect to be fully reimbursed for
Comments
I just dont understand how folks can trivialize its success. Oh its scifi, so what? 300,000 people find it worthy of subscriptions.
This is like me saying wow is a niche pvp game, since most of the people raid. While it does have pvp, it cant be considered mainstream since the majority of players dont pvp. To me it seems that you argument is flawed.
incorrect. First, there are few people who raids in WOW. Before WOTLK, we are talking about single digit percentage (well documented.. that is why raid is made easy in WOTLK).
Second, just count the amount of players on pvp services in WOW. That is a LOT (millions) more than 300k.
A hesitancy to call something mainstream hardly qualifies as a trivialization of a company's success. Would that I had such lousy success with my company.
Also, realize that it is fairly standard for EVE Online players to have multiple subscriptions. I'm quite comfortable calling the number of people subscribing to EVE Online as at least a third lower than the pure subscription number. Still a roaring success, but 200,000 doesn't qualify as a mainstream success in my opinion.
And that's all it is, an opinion.
It's undoubtedly more practical to consider game features for the breadth of their appeal rather than an entire game.
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
Post like this would make one wonder -- "Hey in a Full Loot PVP game no one has to kill mobs anymore? Is solo dead?"
Well the answer to that is the same for games like DFO/EVE, etc. Yes! You do still solo. And you still do plenty of pvp.
I hear some ask, "Well do people put on their sunday's best gear like in WoW and risk 1 vs 20?"
Um, would you run outside in the middle of a warzone by yourself in all your best equipment? No. In a full loot game you take 'meditated risks'. You will acquire intel before adventuring into a risky area. And yes, you are less likely to play Rambo. And you are a lot less likely to fight all night long pointlessly like you would in WoW and such.
You take careful premeditated risks. You acquire Intel on your enemies. You evaluate your chances and decide if you should flee. You do not waste your time nor theirs fighting a fight you cannot win
Victory Conditions. This firmly exist in full loot games. They are virtually non-existant in WoW clones
I do very much agree and that's the positive side to that type of system. No more running in blindly without knowing your enemies. This is a very good thing I think! Though the point I was making is not that you have to be more careful and thus it reduces PvP quality but how things tend to turn into gankfests. Although 20 on 1 is something you really can't prevent in almost any game, looting or not, high risks encourages more wolves to become sheep per-say. You must survive and the best way anyone can due that is by joining a guild, squad, or alliance and fight together. Generally that's the ideal thing all developers want, even with our game (group on group action) but it also factors on the intentions of the group too. If the game goes from decent solo PvP and great grouped PvP that's somewhat balanced in all cases to not logging on till being outnumbered or "we only gank 30 on 1" then you might notice a quality drop in PvP gameplay.
Course this is only going off the assumption of my own that most players like having a somewhat balanced playfield. Meaning you like having a good well-matched opponent to fight you, win or lose. Because if you didn't, that means all targets are easy to you and it really doesn't excite you anymore to PKILL (i.e.: like killing people 30 levels below you non-stop is normally going to be horrid after the 1,000 kill) OR very hard for you and that's not going to excite you anymore to PKILL. *smiles*
True, normally the more you risk, the more precautions one takes. However, I still see a lot of lone wolves in EVE. They prefer to use ships that are nice for soloing like Vagabonds. Sure, many times they may use a cloak and sometimes logout. That's not cool.
But its really bloody immersive. My heart pounds daily as a jump through a gate in 0.0. Immersion, it can make even a trivial task like killing a rat very exciting because I have to keep my eyes open for a ganker
Well everything is perspective I guess. Most of my UO guild left mid 1998... not due to PK's. The final straw was they somehow got into our tower... and it was fully looted. There were no secure chests. The thing is the tower was full of junk... there was absolutely nothing worth anything (thousands and thousands of pieces of junk).
So while it was "compromised" I dropped another house and the two of us that stayed (we had close to 100 members sadly) moved into that. When the ownership system went live I owned the tower (I had placed it and had the master key) and I changed the locks... -> back into tower.
So as Famine says some people aren't willing to risk anything.
That's why I say be upfront about your game.. market it to that market.
Also why I liked UO so much was... EvE does have one thing in common with other MMO's.. it had upward item progession. Their are more and more complex ships that cost more and more isk etc etc
UO you were either using magic items or crafted items. My expereince was that the best magic item in PvP was no better than the best crafted item (the ones that got "makers marks"). So there was to be technical no upward progression... To me that's where a mass market pvp full loot game needs to be.
Crafters can make items that are sold at a price point that is relatively low yet is mostly profit.. and due to the looting there is a large turn over thus long term sustained crafting market.. .to me that was what made UO so awesome...
This obviously exists in EvE as well I just think at times some of the "upward" items being so valuable is an issue. What is the point of having things you don't use.. because you are afraid to lose them. The point from my perspective is you should use the things you have... you may lose them.. but you can replace them (rather easily). I always had at least 5 complete sets of gear in my UO bank...
Altho when I killed a guy and found my gear on their body.. it was a good time.
A hesitancy to call something mainstream hardly qualifies as a trivialization of a company's success. Would that I had such lousy success with my company.
Also, realize that it is fairly standard for EVE Online players to have multiple subscriptions. I'm quite comfortable calling the number of people subscribing to EVE Online as at least a third lower than the pure subscription number. Still a roaring success, but 200,000 doesn't qualify as a mainstream success in my opinion.
And that's all it is, an opinion.
It's undoubtedly more practical to consider game features for the breadth of their appeal rather than an entire game.
Its fairly common for dual boxers to appear in *any* MMO. In EQ, people used to run them so they could powerlevel their alts via healers/buffers. In city of heroes, people would essentially do this for the same purpose. In WoW, one guy 'tried' to run an entire raid by himself with what 25-40 accounts?
Regardless, to a publisher, why would they care if one person has 20 accounts going as long as they collect $$ from this guy. CCP is smart for running the discount specials for dual boxers and recognizing they have *always* been commonplace in MMORPGs especially sandbox ones where only 1 character is often viable
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
Fun is subjective to the person playing the MMO. I found many fun things to do in EVE, be it mining ops, mission running, or invention. Just because you don't find it fun does not mean that someone else won't either.
So as Famine says some people aren't willing to risk anything.
That's why I say be upfront about your game.. market it to that market.
Yeah, that's what it pretty much comes down to in my opinion. This isn't even touching the uncontrollable issues like server lag or client lag. Full looting means everything is gone from 1 death. It doesn't even have to mean that you lost the match because you were not good enough. It could mean you lost the match because your ISP dropped during the battle and when you logged on the next 20 minutes you notice you died while link dead. Things like that as well other client side issues (hardware, user configuration, and etc) can't be controlled on the developers end. This is what I feel is another major drawback to the system of full looting.
I think I made some strong points against having such a system. Don't get me wrong, I would love for us to adapt it as well other to also adapt it more only because that's my type of game play too. However, in order to rush in new systems or understand feedback. You also have to look at the bad sides to everything and weigh them against each other.
Glen ''Famine'' Swan
Senior Assistant Community Manager - Funcom
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
heh and here I thought I was the only one who saw this in EVE. Guess I was wrong. Only the "fun" part I kinda disagree with. There is a minority of players who in fact get a lot of fun over the exploitation etc that occurs in EVE and that is why they play it. Someone said once to me that they didn't consider it "bad" or "wrong" because it wasn't "real" . If that makes any sense and "hey at least I get it all over with in a game and dont do it in real life". Unfortunately the amount of actual scamming for real money is over the top and makes me run far far away lol. Its almost like its taken farming of fake money for profit and real world cash conversion to a whole new level.
In any event this is exactly why EVE will never be mainstream as this type of gameplay and I use that word with some hesitation is only enjoyed by a small section of the population relatively speaking.
I would assume mainstream means what the majority of people enjoy and do with regards to gameplay on a daily bases. Unfortunately numbers show despite the protests of many "old school" gamers that casual gaming and having pure fun is more popular and the mainstream. People want to be entertained not get a second job or in the case of EVE endure some wierd kind of abuse while trying to mess with others and possibly exploit a corp and then sell all the stuff they stole for real money to some other guy. Open pvp will and can probably be popular, but destroying someones achievments wont ever be popular. The average person usually plays for fun and to achieve goals and accumulate what I would call "gold stars" that being titles, loot and things to show off in the form of rewards for their adventures. They dont want to give it up 5 minutes after they got their new shiny bauble.
I think my most memorable moment in EVE all maybe 2 weeks of trying to figure out why people played and enjoyed being a 2 dimensional cut out flying around in what is mostly empty space was assasinating my corps leader after the corp got ripped off for the 3rd time. After I had spent an evening mining and stockpiling with others only to find it all gone the next day about the only fun thing was getting my revenge and blowing up his ship and hanging his corps in a canister ... the rest of the two weeks was borring as hell, menotinous and consisted of waiting for a timer to expire for training skill ups and flying a dull borring empty space wishing I could be 3 dimensional and get out and explore the space stations and look in the stores which looked semi interesting the way the stations were set up. So in two weeks I had about 5 minutes of actual fun and it was at someone elses expense and then I left .. wondering what was so good about that game
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
If you ask someone that plays Eve what they do in the game everyone will have a different answer for you.
Yet you say In eve there's nothing to do? If I ask a WoW player the same question they will say Arena, Raids or rolling alts.
If you weren't a troll I would actually list the hundreds if not thousands of ways to play Eve but since you seem to actually think that Zero Punctuation Review was anything more then a Joke I wont bother.
I'm glad you don't play Eve.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
So much yet so little. Can't leave your ship yet. Can't land on planets. Can't land on anything actually. Can't manually control your ship since its all autopilot and point and click control since everything loves like a 747. Can't explore anything unique, since every zone is a copy paste of the same layout with a different background map. A different name or galaxy number doesn't make it unique, sorry=) No truly unique areas like an Empire Strikes Back asteroid filed littered with space worms or something at least INTERESTING or creative. Any giant space alien entities to kill? Nope, just the same boring spaceships you've seen a zillion times flying at the slowest speeds imaginable.
All you do in Eve is kill stuff, buy stuff, sell stuff, build stuff and loot stuff, the same things you do in most other MMOs by the way=) What you can do in Eve is exploit people. Thats what it really lets you do. But the thing is, in mainstream games, exploiting people is seen as a BAD thing. In Eve, it IS the game. Most don't find fun in exploiting or being exploited in a videogame.
Eve, mainstream? In who's universe? Not this one=) TO be mainstream the game would have to be FUN. Eve is rarely mentioned as a FUN game. Its an interesting game. A complex game. A DEEP game. But FUN? No, not fun. Fun makes its mainstream and Eve just isn't considered fun, even by many who love playing it. Postitve reviews don't even mention fun as a major feature. Its played for different reasons, which makes it as far as mainstream as you can get. Its not a bad game, but its NOT mainstream.
The Review on Zero Punctuation explains it best=)
Josher why discuss a game you know absolutely nothing about? You obviously don't like Eve. That is ok, but your rant goes far beyond that into mouthing complete nonsense. Saying it is not mainstream, when it has more subs than most of the mainstream MMO's is wearing blinders. Wake up to reality, it is the leading sci-fi MMO at present with a significant player base.
Whether you like Eve is not the point. The point is a lot people do and have great fun playing the game.
As to the main topic, a full loot FFA-PVP game can be mainstream if it has significant limits on those that want to be ass hats. With significant consequences, people will play it. Problem is, games like this are done by devs who can't figure this out, ie. like Aventurine. Clueless devs like this give this model a very bad name.
If you ask peopole what they do it comes back to the same few things. You buy stuiff, you sell stuff, you travel someplace, you kill something and you build something. It all comes down to that. Every MMO lets you do it. Just because you think what you do MATTERS more in Eve, doesn't make it any different. Its still the same exact activity. Just because in Eve, transporting is something to do, it doesn't make it a fun acitivty. Same with negotiating a virtual ceasefire or anything RP related. I can think of 100s of things to do in WOW as well when you start including every little detail. I bet you'd consider gaurding your space station an acitivity even if NO ONE ever attacks you. Sitting around for 4-12 hours because you got a tip from a forum thread on some clans website that the Goons were coming, would proboably be considering "something to do" in Eve's world. Here in MAINSTREAM land, thats called sitting around twidlling your thumbs=) Transporting something would be considered work. But hey, if people enjoy that, fantastic. Good for them. But it ain't mainstream.
Of couse Zero Punctuation is a joke, but if you can't see some of the truth in it, your sense of humor is GONE=) That review is exactly why Eve will never be considered mainstream. If you can't understand that, you're proof positive of Eve's lack of mainstream appeal. By the way, I'm quite glad I don't play Eve either...It frees up time to live my real life instead of a virtual one=) That was a joke!
I think it depends on stuff like rarity of items, how hard it is to get items, quantities available. For example, when UO first came out tons of items were always being made by the player base, there weren't really any +20 Str items around and everyone was using the same stuff. Things were easily replaced, getting into a new set of decent armor was as easy as replenishing your reagents from the magic shops. As soon as you introduce "Leet" items into the mix people are more worried about losing the items and they just sit in the bank. You have to find a balance on not making items too uber and it could work.
If games introduced something like a global item upgrade for armor like advancements or new discoveries with materials. Phase out older weaker stuff and the next items could be slowly introduced but not give as much of a boost. Games now are turning into item storage and the next big stat boost item grind. People start looking the same because there are large difference in stat boosts are only on 1 item.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Yes, but first drop that idiotic system of "leveling". Go back to skill-based RPG, if you swing your sword a lot you get better in swinging your sword. Same for magic and crafting. Make most of the decent items craftable but also create loot dropped items which are slightly better, or make craftable weapons better by adding gems/upgrades/magic/whatever...
Create a guildsystem which can form alliances, put some thought in the PK system, create a murderer system with cons for the player but also some pro's, create a bountyhunter system, and make sure it isnt exploitable... I don't like it but do create safezones, ala EVE, if *your* game is uberlyawesomelygreat people want to play it... make a shitload of content for carebears but also give them the oppurtunity to go PvPing, the hardcore PK/PvPer will live in the "outlands" anyways... (thus make good pvp content)
It's not that hard, just don't expect you will create a "WoW-Killer" because alot of the new MMO generation EQ2/WOW are dumbed down and less social then we where when we started, they just seek a quick *epiclewt* fix, do the same thing multiple times a week and stand in the capital bragging with their "Epic Sword Of I Have No Life And Raid 6 Times A Week".
(Sorry if I sound harsh, but I hold a grudge against carebears/raiders/WoWkiddies because I hold THEM responsible for destroying the genre, not the developers, they just listened)
*edit*
seriously, which moron invented the term "Dailys", wtf repeatable ENDGAME quests? Which are so fricking easy and are absolutly not dynamic or fun???... and even a bigger question, why are the WOW kiddies playing them?? are they all heroin addicts or what? What happend to the ROLE PLAYING GAME in MMORPG. Just call the genre MMO Bragging Morons With No life!!!! seriously, I get so pissed if I remember how epic and intense the older MMo's where before the genre got populair... people actually socialised, helped each other, played together... pick a random MMO, go to the global chat and see for yourself...
the genre is doomed...
Playing EVE Online
(PM me for the EVE 21-day trial program)
The first steps towards making full loot mainstream I believe were taken by Mythic with the player corspe being lootable but rolled on a loot table in Warhammer. While it's not full loot it's a baby step in the direction of getting the mainstream into the idea of looting a fallen player. The next step would probably be making consumables lootable from a player corpse followed by the looting of 1 or 2 equipment sots eventually graduating to full loot.
Thats the key generaly you have to get people used to an idea by implimenting it in various steps along the way to get the mainstream educated about what to expect. Right now if you throw full loot in their face they will probably shy away but if you get them to play various steps along the way before you hand it to them it just might work eventually. Then again you may very well find people balking at certain steps and that means you probably have to stay at that level for a while to get them more used to the idea before moving forward.
Can ful loot game be successful now? Depends how you define success. If by successful you mean can pay the bills and have enough left over to keep paying the devs to make new stuff yes I think there is enough of a market to acheive that. If you mean big enough to rival WOW then nope not at this time then again who knows what would happen if Blizzards new MMO is a FFA full loot game and are they arrogant enough in their belief they can do no wrong in the eyes of their fanbase.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.
I think the main reason it wouldn't work can be boiled down to game design,now to get good gear in game you need to work for it and very hard I might add from games like wow in where you could kill hundreds of difficult mobs in the hopes of getting 1 purple drop or lotro where you have to level up a legendary weapon for countless of in game hours.
These games are designed by the devs to maximize your playing and sub time by making most everything a ravaging time sink and as technology stands there are far too easy ways for you to lose the goods you worked months to gain.
I think it started when devs discovered that lot's of people when on the losing end of a fight would just quickly go ld so to alleviate that they added a feature which insures you stay in game world for some 30 seconds in most cases and though I agree wholeheartedly that it's a weak tactic to avoid a loss it more often than not could actually be a technical reason you were disconnected from the server and there could be a myriad of reasons for that actually happening the least of which is a person attempting to avoid a loss in battle.
Now if I bought myself an aston martin in real life should I expect that just because someone else wanted it and could take it from me that there is nothing I could do about it?
I could live with full loot pvp in a game if there was something just as equally balanced against a person who indulged in a play style that basically allowed them to build themselves up simply by taking from others which we know in any game like that there would be multitudes of people doing it.
So in essence it is just far too easy to exploit a system like that and far too few consequences in game for those that do exploit the game in such manners for it to be worth it to play something like that I'm not against the existence of a game like that but I can say with a high level of certainty I wouldn't be a player of it.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Daily quests are simply a replacement for endgame gold/reputation farming. Instead of going out and farming the same mobs over and over, you now do a few simple tasks each day and then go do other stuff. You do not have to camp the same spots all the time competing with kill stealers and other bored players. If the daily is a kill quest or a dungeon quest you can group up with others so the task is easier and you can help out others. It is a lightweight mechanic that replaces the need for engaing in 'zombie play'. While still lacking Dailies are definetly more RP then old school farming.
Daily quests are simply a replacement for endgame gold/reputation farming. Instead of going out and farming the same mobs over and over, you now do a few simple tasks each day and then go do other stuff. You do not have to camp the same spots all the time competing with kill stealers and other bored players. If the daily is a kill quest or a dungeon quest you can group up with others so the task is easier and you can help out others. It is a lightweight mechanic that replaces the need for engaing in 'zombie play'. While still lacking Dailies are definetly more RP then old school farming.
And there you have it...
End-Game in modern MMO's are jobs, not epic adventures.
Playing EVE Online
(PM me for the EVE 21-day trial program)
Ultima Online was the dawn of an era for MMORPG's, and EVE is also classified as Full Loot PVP if I'm not mistaken. And they are both mainstream MMO's and do very well.
IMHO, It's not for everyone, it's a matter of taste and playstyle. If you don't mind losing the gear your spent 10 hours grinding for then go for it. If you like to sneak up and grief someone then maybe it;s for you, of course if you just like to have a challenging fight versus someone that isn;t driven by AI (and usually bad) programming like me, then do it.
Daily quests are simply a replacement for endgame gold/reputation farming. Instead of going out and farming the same mobs over and over, you now do a few simple tasks each day and then go do other stuff. You do not have to camp the same spots all the time competing with kill stealers and other bored players. If the daily is a kill quest or a dungeon quest you can group up with others so the task is easier and you can help out others. It is a lightweight mechanic that replaces the need for engaing in 'zombie play'. While still lacking Dailies are definetly more RP then old school farming.
And there you have it...
End-Game in modern MMO's are jobs, not epic adventures.
Farming for gold is as 'old-school' as you can get. It definetly did not qualify as 'epic adventures' in older MMORPGs. Dailies are a less tedious replacement that feels less like a job and as such has more 'epic' feeling then old-school gold farming. They are not that high on the 'epicness' scale but are a definite improvement over the old way of earning gold to support your endgame activities.
So as Famine says some people aren't willing to risk anything.
That's why I say be upfront about your game.. market it to that market.
Yeah, that's what it pretty much comes down to in my opinion. This isn't even touching the uncontrollable issues like server lag or client lag. Full looting means everything is gone from 1 death. It doesn't even have to mean that you lost the match because you were not good enough. It could mean you lost the match because your ISP dropped during the battle and when you logged on the next 20 minutes you notice you died while link dead. Things like that as well other client side issues (hardware, user configuration, and etc) can't be controlled on the developers end. This is what I feel is another major drawback to the system of full looting.
I think I made some strong points against having such a system. Don't get me wrong, I would love for us to adapt it as well other to also adapt it more only because that's my type of game play too. However, in order to rush in new systems or understand feedback. You also have to look at the bad sides to everything and weigh them against each other.
CCP handles that issue well. If you can prove its a server side issue, you are refunded for your loss. But if it was client-side, you are not refunded for your loss. Since a guy can just unplug their router or something.
Not to mention games like EVE have insurance. Also, when the game determines the client has dropped connection for whatever reason, it automatically warps your ship away.
It's really, really, really hard to die due to issues with all of these layers of protection. I've been playing EVE for a long time and never had this issue
Same goes for other games I've played
Good post but let me elaborate for how WE Alliance players play EVE.
Most any good Alliance will have Ship Reimbursement programs. So they will reimburse you for your loss. Alliances in EVE make insanely rich ISK from rare 64 moons they conquer. With this ISK, they use it to fund further expansion and replacing losses.
So, for a modern full loot MMO, one should not be losing and losing ISK. Rather, your bank should will remain stable because your Corp/Alliance helps support your loss.
some corps/Alliance will also build your ships for you. Like captials and so forth
EVE is the correct way to make a full loot mainstream MMO in my opinion. Whereas Alliances conquer land, incur resources from the land they have taken over, and *pay* to build equipment and weapons for their soldiers. No pvper wants to mine asteroids all day to replace their loss. sure, I grind ISK but its for my personal bankroll. Ships I fly for my Alliance I expect to be fully reimbursed for