Regardless, piracy is not something we can really do anything about without massive changes to the way we live (for the worse). New strategies are necessary to deal with how the world operates now.
Yeah, the strategy people like myself adopted was to quit wasting our energy trying to make a living by sharing the art that we love with a bunch of selfish criminal scumbags. Luckily, we still have great music when we get together holidays and weekends.
Eventually movies, music, AND videogames will all be complete shit thanks to you selfish children that support piracy.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Most economies are based on the concept of scarcity. Software, music, movies and books are all zero cost products. Let me explain...
While the initial cost to produce a movie, music album or game may take time and money for the producers, the actual reproduction of the media costs nothing. In the past, only so many books, games, music CDs, etc. were printed in one go and few people had the ability to reproduce these things. Now, with the advent of the internet and terrabyte hard drives, anyone can copy anything for free. In fact, it's never been so cheap to make a comic book, music CD or game since you can make any of those with open source tools and distribute online for free. Likewise, you are not limited to any set number of copies since you can just keep one version on a server and upload it to whoever as needed.
Because there are potentially infinite digital copies of just about anything that can be distributed digitally, the value of those copies reaches somewhere so close to zero that it can never be profitable. This is the main reason why there's such a big hoopla about cloud computing and web apps. If you start providing software as a service and charge for the use of your machinery, then you re-intorduce scarcity into the system. This is the reason why MMORPGs are about the only segment of the PC market that's profitable.
If you want to make money off of some creative property that you've put together then you're going to have to offer it as a limited edition or a service. Otherwise, it's technically worthless.
It's not a joke. I am not a corporation. I do not think that piracy of copyrighted material is theft because corporations and the people who work for them think so. I think stealing the results of someone else's effort is wrong and should therefore be illegal. There are laws that back up my opinon.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
Most economies are based on the concept of scarcity. Software, music, movies and books are all zero cost products. Let me explain... While the initial cost to produce a movie, music album or game may take time and money for the producers, the actual reproduction of the media costs nothing. In the past, only so many books, games, music CDs, etc. were printed in one go and few people had the ability to reproduce these things. Now, with the advent of the internet and terrabyte hard drives, anyone can copy anything for free. In fact, it's never been so cheap to make a comic book, music CD or game since you can make any of those with open source tools and distribute online for free. Likewise, you are not limited to any set number of copies since you can just keep one version on a server and upload it to whoever as needed. Because there are potentially infinite digital copies of just about anything that can be distributed digitally, the value of those copies reaches somewhere so close to zero that it can never be profitable. This is the main reason why there's such a big hoopla about cloud computing and web apps. If you start providing software as a service and charge for the use of your machinery, then you re-intorduce scarcity into the system. This is the reason why MMORPGs are about the only segment of the PC market that's profitable. If you want to make money off of some creative property that you've put together then you're going to have to offer it as a limited edition or a service. Otherwise, it's technically worthless.
Spoken like a person who has never created anything worthwhile in his life.
This mindset is a recipe for a desolate and artless world. Perhaps it is unavoidable, and perhaps it is what humanity deserves.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Most economies are based on the concept of scarcity. Software, music, movies and books are all zero cost products. Let me explain... While the initial cost to produce a movie, music album or game may take time and money for the producers, the actual reproduction of the media costs nothing. In the past, only so many books, games, music CDs, etc. were printed in one go and few people had the ability to reproduce these things. Now, with the advent of the internet and terrabyte hard drives, anyone can copy anything for free. In fact, it's never been so cheap to make a comic book, music CD or game since you can make any of those with open source tools and distribute online for free. Likewise, you are not limited to any set number of copies since you can just keep one version on a server and upload it to whoever as needed. Because there are potentially infinite digital copies of just about anything that can be distributed digitally, the value of those copies reaches somewhere so close to zero that it can never be profitable. This is the main reason why there's such a big hoopla about cloud computing and web apps. If you start providing software as a service and charge for the use of your machinery, then you re-intorduce scarcity into the system. This is the reason why MMORPGs are about the only segment of the PC market that's profitable. If you want to make money off of some creative property that you've put together then you're going to have to offer it as a limited edition or a service. Otherwise, it's technically worthless.
Spoken like a person who has never created anything worthwhile in his life.
This mindset is a recipe for a desolate and artless world. Perhaps it is unavoidable, and perhaps it is what humanity deserves.
How so?
There's only one Mona Lisa and it's priceless. There are people running around spending insane amounts of money on original comic book art rather than the comics themselves. Thousands still turn out to see live performances by musicians and comedians. And I still ocasionally spend $20 for a night at the movies.
There will always be people that want the real deal and not a print. That's were the money is. If you aren't driven or talented enough to get that kind of appreciation on your own then it's really no body's problem but yours.
That said, I pass by games that have anti-piracy measures that I do not like......for example EA Games, especially after I found out that I purchased Spore and it will only load on my computer three times. I am already into my second load, having had to re-load my hard drive due to the Antivirus 2009 virus.
That means that I paid $50 and have only one more load time left. When I upgrade my computer, I will have used that up. Not important to many of you, however I still have a copy of Dungeonkeeper I keep loading up and playing. I keep old games and often return to play them.
Look, I bought the game, I should be able to load it onto as many of my computers as I want, as many times as I want, without having to hassle with EAs customer service.
So, I no longer buy EA games.
Nor will I pirate their games though. I just do without.
I do download movies from p2p all the time :P so i am guilty of that, and music too haha but never a video game.. is against my gamer religion lol.
The problem is precisely that: how to approach this vexing problem? On one extreme people think that it is "sticking it to the man" and on the other extreme people think even legitimate sharing is "stealing."
IP enforcement is very (very) aggressive. Consider, though somewhat a digression, the enforceability of EULA (End User License Agreements). Known as a take-it-or-leave-it proposition, a EULA is a contract of adhesion because the only alternative to complete and total adherence is outright rejection. The other party is not free to negotiate over the terms of the EULA. Even worse, you have to "agree" to EULA after you have purchased the product. Unlike say a computer which is delivered to your home, you could return it within 30 days if you read through the shrinkwrap license in the plastic packaging and return it. It is reasonable because a retailer could not possibly, over the phone or even online, explain the arcane details of the agreement; the customer would hang-up or click cancel.
Remember Caligula? Probably not, since history is no longer taught in schools. Caligula was a roman tyrant who had the laws inscribed on pillars so high that the regulare people could not read them (meeting the requirement that the laws be in writing and publicly displayed). The fine print in these EULA's are hardly within the vision of the person on the other end.
EULA's (clickwrap agreements) are presumptively invalid for this very person. No opportunity to negotiate over terms, inbalance of bargaining power, and the terms can be contrary to the reasonably expectations of the weaker party. Even worse, some of the terms are oppressive or unconscionable (such as arbitration clauses). The end-user, lacking a reasonable and meaningful opportunity to negotiate has no reasonable alternative (accept or do not). Procedurally, EULA's are per se unconscionable because of this. The terms themselves can be unreasonable (whereas risks are all o the weakened end-user, forums clauses, arbitration provisions, or even prohibitions on class action law suits) and thus substantively unconscionable and unenforceable.
I would even go further in saying that many of these companies will modify and amend their EULA's without the end-user's knowledge or assent to the change.
As an aside, it always amuses me when I see largely unsophisticated people adhering to nondisclosure agreements in the area of online gaming while, in some cases simultaneously, illegally downloading other games. It is a culture I do not understand up to and including this point in time. Take my freedom of speech to test your game (almost always for free), but I have a right to steal your game. The mind completely boggles from this perverse philosophy.
EDIT: There is in the American culture, today, probably among the less intelligent and more youthful, a weird willingness to give-up rights. And, just as bad, to take-away others' rights. This is also something that boggles my mind.
And who is liable for the criminal and civil sanctions? The web site? Who is responsible for the copyright violation? The owner of a copyright has the sole right to sdo with and authorize the reproduction of a work, prepare derivative works, distribute copies of the work, perform the work publicly, and display the work publicly. It seems to ME that web page operators could have a duty to enforce copyright violations on their web pages. Certainly, at a minimum, a copyright holder can recover civil damages from web page operators. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), however, "service providers" are protected from cirminal and civil liability. This complicates the matter further. Did the "service provider" have (a) knowledge or (b) benefit financially from the copyright infringement? Throw in another factor: (c) did the "service provider" have the ability to control infringement and not remove the infringement? Viacom and YouTube are in a billion-dollar battle right now.
Should the law protect the mere host of information? What if someone uses MySpace to harass another? Is MySpace liable, or even is the offender liable under MySpace's EULA?
I oppose piracy, and would never pirate a game. That said, I pass by games that have anti-piracy measures that I do not like......for example EA Games, especially after I found out that I purchased Spore and it will only load on my computer three times. I am already into my second load, having had to re-load my hard drive due to the Antivirus 2009 virus. That means that I paid $50 and have only one more load time left. When I upgrade my computer, I will have used that up. Not important to many of you, however I still have a copy of Dungeonkeeper I keep loading up and playing. I keep old games and often return to play them. Look, I bought the game, I should be able to load it onto as many of my computers as I want, as many times as I want, without having to hassle with EAs customer service. So, I no longer buy EA games. Nor will I pirate their games though. I just do without.
I agree, and this is why I think it is necessary that we find alternative solutions to the problem, so that the antipiracy control of information movement does not have to be the ONLY solution. I refuse to buy a game that tells me how many times I can load it, it at least has to have a call in option for me to be able to use my discs, or I have no interest in buying them since, I am constantly upgrading and formatting my computers.
Piracy is theft, and I think that it should be prosecuted, but I do not support them using this as a means to control information, and we need to come up with some better ideas here in order to solve this problem before everything we use has limitations on how and where we can use what we pay for.
I oppose piracy, and would never pirate a game. That said, I pass by games that have anti-piracy measures that I do not like......for example EA Games, especially after I found out that I purchased Spore and it will only load on my computer three times. I am already into my second load, having had to re-load my hard drive due to the Antivirus 2009 virus. That means that I paid $50 and have only one more load time left. When I upgrade my computer, I will have used that up. Not important to many of you, however I still have a copy of Dungeonkeeper I keep loading up and playing. I keep old games and often return to play them. Look, I bought the game, I should be able to load it onto as many of my computers as I want, as many times as I want, without having to hassle with EAs customer service. So, I no longer buy EA games. Nor will I pirate their games though. I just do without.
I COMPLETELY hear you on that one... spore eventually forced me to do a low level format on my hard drive.
Artists and developers are using draconian measures as a last pitiful attempt to keep scumbag pirates from eliminating their livelihoods.
I also have sworn never to buy another game that includes this DRM crap.
You should blame the selfishness of the pirates for this development. People that care for no one besides themselves help us along the road to a world without any great art.
All great art requires patronage. For a while this was from great and wealthy benefactors.
For a while this was the general public through sales. Pirates have ended this phase.
Who will the great benefactor to step up and save great art for the human race??
Unless we are invaded by rich, benevolent aliens that share our aesthetics, NO ONE I fear....
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I just wanted to echo olddaddy's position, which is pretty much mine. Simply put, it is a simple matter for me, I do not, and will not, purchase EA games (ever).
Moreover, I also, as olddaddy said, will not purchase (or play) games with wacko such piracy "protection" features. In fact, one reason I have not been able to play Grand Theft Auto IV is because I feel like everything is being tracked as a I play. I literally have to play with this box in the background.
I do not play companies for trying to protect their IP. In fact, I agree with them: protect your assets. I just do not like it, and as a consumer, I voice my opinion most effectively through purchases and non-purchases. Very (very) uncomplicated for me.
Advocates of Piracy are too stupid to realize that by supporting piracy, they are turning the wheels that are pushing forward complete control of information. With everything YOU pirate, you are pushing forth the effort further to determine when, where and how you can use their products. You are the fuel that is pushing forth their movement.
Well you wanna know what makes me angry.. is when i buy a game and i see alot of people getting the same experience with a copy from the internet... i wonder why did i buy the game?? well i did it because i feel the people that worked their ass doing the game disserve my respect.
When it comes to music, i feel musicians are overpayed anyway... "Jhonas brothers" as an example.. so i only buy the good cds.
Anyway.. i wanted to show some list for you all to think about costs of a normal game so you think were the money goes..
-Production dvd boxes. : This includes dvd, covers, game guides, etc.
- Programmers salary: most games have at least 10-20 programmers, and most games last 1-2 years alot of times more. Programmers cost alot of money, around 60k a year.
- Artist salary: again, lots of them, this includes modelers, texture, lighting, render, concept artist and more.
- Team leads and producers salary
-Marketing salaries
-Publicity
-Online servers: if there are any.
-Production fees
-Taxes
-Licensing fees
-Copyright fees
-And much much more
This are just a few of the costs of making a normal video game.. this goes for 2-3 years. Imagine now, all this hard work for someone to buy a copy of the game and then distribute it on the interwebs to at least 100 people.. and im being nice about the numbers ... im sure you all can do the math.
Yes piracy is here to stay.., but the change starts with each one of us, and it only makes companies try harder to make better products that the customers cant resist to buy.
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
Regardless, piracy is not something we can really do anything about without massive changes to the way we live (for the worse). New strategies are necessary to deal with how the world operates now.
Yeah, the strategy people like myself adopted was to quit wasting our energy trying to make a living by sharing the art that we love with a bunch of selfish criminal scumbags. Luckily, we still have great music when we get together holidays and weekends.
Eventually movies, music, AND videogames will all be complete shit thanks to you selfish children that support piracy.
I like how you assume that I support piracy because I have a realistic view about it.
I don't support piracy.
I do realize that piracy is not something we can combat without incredible losses in the realm of human rights.
I'm willing to bet that you couldn't make a living with your art because it wasn't that great, not because of pirates. Other people seem to be doing just fine. Maybe you can't accept that.
The fact is, piracy is here to stay, and people are going to have to find new ways to deliver media to the public. Might have to actually stop ripping them off. Funny how these singles services that sell individual songs for a fair price are doing so well.
Maybe it's because people are willing to pay for a fair deal.
Insulting people you know nothing about doesn't support your case, generally speaking.
Piracy was inevitable given the evolution of technology and the fact that people are selfish and clueless.. I remember telling people that Napster was the beginning of the end of music as we knew it.
The whole discussion is academic at this point anyway, the damage has been done. We'll have to be content with seeing the next generation of great singer-songwriters at open-mic night after they get home from their day jobs.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Insulting people you know nothing about doesn't support your case, generally speaking.
Piracy was inevitable given the evolution of technology and the fact that people are selfish and clueless.. I remember telling people that Napster was the beginning of the end of music as we knew it.
The whole discussion is academic at this point anyway, the damage has been done. We'll have to be content with seeing the next generation of great singer-songwriters at open-mic night after they get home from their day jobs.
The Record Industry's Decline
Record sales are tanking, and there's no hope in sight: How it all went wrong
Indeed.
Originally posted by Enkindu
Eventually movies, music, AND videogames will all be complete shit thanks to you selfish children that support piracy.
I'm glad you're not above taking your own advice.
In any case, the record industry is doing poorly because the record industry has decided that it's above changing.
Meanwhile, digital sales are booming and artists are doing just fine.
Insulting people you know nothing about doesn't support your case, generally speaking.
Piracy was inevitable given the evolution of technology and the fact that people are selfish and clueless.. I remember telling people that Napster was the beginning of the end of music as we knew it.
The whole discussion is academic at this point anyway, the damage has been done. We'll have to be content with seeing the next generation of great singer-songwriters at open-mic night after they get home from their day jobs.
The Record Industry's Decline
Record sales are tanking, and there's no hope in sight: How it all went wrong
Indeed.
Originally posted by Enkindu
Eventually movies, music, AND videogames will all be complete shit thanks to you selfish children that support piracy.
I'm glad you're not above taking your own advice.
In any case, the record industry is doing poorly because the record industry has decided that it's above changing.
Meanwhile, digital sales are booming and artists are doing just fine.
I qualified the group of people that I was attacking very clearly. I have open contempt for people who support piracy.
You, on the other hand, presume to know more than you do.
As I said, insulting people you know nothing about does not support your position.
You may make your case that artists are doing fine, but the quality of new music coming out is abysmal.
Oh, what I would give to be able to go out and spend $20 on a carefully crafted album... I guess now I can conveniently download snippets of trite drivel at the bargain price of $0.99.
Never again will we see the likes of The Wall, Blood on the Tracks, Sticky Fingers, The Joshua Tree....
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Insulting people you know nothing about doesn't support your case, generally speaking.
Piracy was inevitable given the evolution of technology and the fact that people are selfish and clueless.. I remember telling people that Napster was the beginning of the end of music as we knew it.
The whole discussion is academic at this point anyway, the damage has been done. We'll have to be content with seeing the next generation of great singer-songwriters at open-mic night after they get home from their day jobs.
The Record Industry's Decline
Record sales are tanking, and there's no hope in sight: How it all went wrong
Indeed.
Originally posted by Enkindu
Eventually movies, music, AND videogames will all be complete shit thanks to you selfish children that support piracy.
I'm glad you're not above taking your own advice.
In any case, the record industry is doing poorly because the record industry has decided that it's above changing.
Meanwhile, digital sales are booming and artists are doing just fine.
I qualified the group of people that I was attacking very clearly. I have open contempt for people who support piracy.
You, on the other hand, presume to know more than you do.
As I said, insulting people you know nothing about does not support your position.
You may make your case that artists are doing fine, but the quality of new music coming out is abysmal.
Oh, what I would give to be able to go out and spend $20 on a carefully crafted album... I guess now I can conveniently download snippets of trite drivel at the bargain price of $0.99.
Never again will we see the likes of The Wall, Blood on the Tracks, Sticky Fingers, The Joshua Tree....
Oh dear.
A music elitist.
Look, you, like the record industry, don't like change.
That's fine.
Just don't curse the world when people who aren't irrationally aversive of changes in the entertainment industry are more successful.
People don't enjoy paying $20 to get a few good songs that they like -- with the rest being dislikable or rubbish -- and unfortunately that scenario is all too common.
As I said, people don't like getting ripped off, but they don't mind paying a fair price.
It is clear that you are not a rational person. You have somehow managed to connect the quality of today's music with its distribution method. I am sorry that you are so bitter about it.
In any case, this discussion is not really relevant to the original topic any more.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Spoken like a person who has never created anything worthwhile in his life.
This mindset is a recipe for a desolate and artless world. Perhaps it is unavoidable, and perhaps it is what humanity deserves.
Riiight, cause an artist's primary motivation is money. If your manufacturing art for profit, your nothing but a sellout. Real artists create art for art's sake. Of course arguing with you on this subject is pointless as your no better the outfctrl, deadset in your ways, conservative to the core.
Oppress music, it's what the labels have been doing to artists for 50+ years. I live in a world where art is to be shared, not locked behind a door so you can charge money for it. Dirty capitalist...
Spoken like a person who has never created anything worthwhile in his life. This mindset is a recipe for a desolate and artless world. Perhaps it is unavoidable, and perhaps it is what humanity deserves.
Riiight, cause an artist's primary motivation is money. If your manufacturing art for profit, your nothing but a sellout. Real artists create art for art's sake. Of course arguing with you on this subject is pointless as your no better the outfctrl, deadset in your ways, conservative to the core.
Oppress music, it's what the labels have been doing to artists for 50+ years. I live in a world where art is to be shared, not locked behind a door so you can charge money for it. Dirty capitalist...
You really think I'm conservative, eh?
Interesting.
I am inflexible in my beliefs about little weasels who think they can help themselves to anyone's intellectual property just because they want it.
I was always happy to spend money on good music. I will never understand how people consider themselves fans when they are so willing to gleefully trash the livelyhood of the musicians that they "like."
What can I say, it has always seemed fair to me to pay for something that I enjoyed.
You are correct though. It is pointless to argue with me on this point. People who pirate music, games, etc. are thieves and they should be treated as such.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Comments
Yeah, the strategy people like myself adopted was to quit wasting our energy trying to make a living by sharing the art that we love with a bunch of selfish criminal scumbags. Luckily, we still have great music when we get together holidays and weekends.
Eventually movies, music, AND videogames will all be complete shit thanks to you selfish children that support piracy.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Most economies are based on the concept of scarcity. Software, music, movies and books are all zero cost products. Let me explain...
While the initial cost to produce a movie, music album or game may take time and money for the producers, the actual reproduction of the media costs nothing. In the past, only so many books, games, music CDs, etc. were printed in one go and few people had the ability to reproduce these things. Now, with the advent of the internet and terrabyte hard drives, anyone can copy anything for free. In fact, it's never been so cheap to make a comic book, music CD or game since you can make any of those with open source tools and distribute online for free. Likewise, you are not limited to any set number of copies since you can just keep one version on a server and upload it to whoever as needed.
Because there are potentially infinite digital copies of just about anything that can be distributed digitally, the value of those copies reaches somewhere so close to zero that it can never be profitable. This is the main reason why there's such a big hoopla about cloud computing and web apps. If you start providing software as a service and charge for the use of your machinery, then you re-intorduce scarcity into the system. This is the reason why MMORPGs are about the only segment of the PC market that's profitable.
If you want to make money off of some creative property that you've put together then you're going to have to offer it as a limited edition or a service. Otherwise, it's technically worthless.
It's not a joke. I am not a corporation. I do not think that piracy of copyrighted material is theft because corporations and the people who work for them think so. I think stealing the results of someone else's effort is wrong and should therefore be illegal. There are laws that back up my opinon.
Spoken like a person who has never created anything worthwhile in his life.
This mindset is a recipe for a desolate and artless world. Perhaps it is unavoidable, and perhaps it is what humanity deserves.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
This is a good discussion. Both sides make really good points. I haven't ever looked up piracy so this is pretty informative.
Spoken like a person who has never created anything worthwhile in his life.
This mindset is a recipe for a desolate and artless world. Perhaps it is unavoidable, and perhaps it is what humanity deserves.
How so?
There's only one Mona Lisa and it's priceless. There are people running around spending insane amounts of money on original comic book art rather than the comics themselves. Thousands still turn out to see live performances by musicians and comedians. And I still ocasionally spend $20 for a night at the movies.
There will always be people that want the real deal and not a print. That's were the money is. If you aren't driven or talented enough to get that kind of appreciation on your own then it's really no body's problem but yours.
I oppose piracy, and would never pirate a game.
That said, I pass by games that have anti-piracy measures that I do not like......for example EA Games, especially after I found out that I purchased Spore and it will only load on my computer three times. I am already into my second load, having had to re-load my hard drive due to the Antivirus 2009 virus.
That means that I paid $50 and have only one more load time left. When I upgrade my computer, I will have used that up. Not important to many of you, however I still have a copy of Dungeonkeeper I keep loading up and playing. I keep old games and often return to play them.
Look, I bought the game, I should be able to load it onto as many of my computers as I want, as many times as I want, without having to hassle with EAs customer service.
So, I no longer buy EA games.
Nor will I pirate their games though. I just do without.
The problem is precisely that: how to approach this vexing problem? On one extreme people think that it is "sticking it to the man" and on the other extreme people think even legitimate sharing is "stealing."
IP enforcement is very (very) aggressive. Consider, though somewhat a digression, the enforceability of EULA (End User License Agreements). Known as a take-it-or-leave-it proposition, a EULA is a contract of adhesion because the only alternative to complete and total adherence is outright rejection. The other party is not free to negotiate over the terms of the EULA. Even worse, you have to "agree" to EULA after you have purchased the product. Unlike say a computer which is delivered to your home, you could return it within 30 days if you read through the shrinkwrap license in the plastic packaging and return it. It is reasonable because a retailer could not possibly, over the phone or even online, explain the arcane details of the agreement; the customer would hang-up or click cancel.
Remember Caligula? Probably not, since history is no longer taught in schools. Caligula was a roman tyrant who had the laws inscribed on pillars so high that the regulare people could not read them (meeting the requirement that the laws be in writing and publicly displayed). The fine print in these EULA's are hardly within the vision of the person on the other end.
EULA's (clickwrap agreements) are presumptively invalid for this very person. No opportunity to negotiate over terms, inbalance of bargaining power, and the terms can be contrary to the reasonably expectations of the weaker party. Even worse, some of the terms are oppressive or unconscionable (such as arbitration clauses). The end-user, lacking a reasonable and meaningful opportunity to negotiate has no reasonable alternative (accept or do not). Procedurally, EULA's are per se unconscionable because of this. The terms themselves can be unreasonable (whereas risks are all o the weakened end-user, forums clauses, arbitration provisions, or even prohibitions on class action law suits) and thus substantively unconscionable and unenforceable.
I would even go further in saying that many of these companies will modify and amend their EULA's without the end-user's knowledge or assent to the change.
As an aside, it always amuses me when I see largely unsophisticated people adhering to nondisclosure agreements in the area of online gaming while, in some cases simultaneously, illegally downloading other games. It is a culture I do not understand up to and including this point in time. Take my freedom of speech to test your game (almost always for free), but I have a right to steal your game. The mind completely boggles from this perverse philosophy.
EDIT: There is in the American culture, today, probably among the less intelligent and more youthful, a weird willingness to give-up rights. And, just as bad, to take-away others' rights. This is also something that boggles my mind.
And who is liable for the criminal and civil sanctions? The web site? Who is responsible for the copyright violation? The owner of a copyright has the sole right to sdo with and authorize the reproduction of a work, prepare derivative works, distribute copies of the work, perform the work publicly, and display the work publicly. It seems to ME that web page operators could have a duty to enforce copyright violations on their web pages. Certainly, at a minimum, a copyright holder can recover civil damages from web page operators. Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), however, "service providers" are protected from cirminal and civil liability. This complicates the matter further. Did the "service provider" have (a) knowledge or (b) benefit financially from the copyright infringement? Throw in another factor: (c) did the "service provider" have the ability to control infringement and not remove the infringement? Viacom and YouTube are in a billion-dollar battle right now.
Should the law protect the mere host of information? What if someone uses MySpace to harass another? Is MySpace liable, or even is the offender liable under MySpace's EULA?
I agree, and this is why I think it is necessary that we find alternative solutions to the problem, so that the antipiracy control of information movement does not have to be the ONLY solution. I refuse to buy a game that tells me how many times I can load it, it at least has to have a call in option for me to be able to use my discs, or I have no interest in buying them since, I am constantly upgrading and formatting my computers.
Piracy is theft, and I think that it should be prosecuted, but I do not support them using this as a means to control information, and we need to come up with some better ideas here in order to solve this problem before everything we use has limitations on how and where we can use what we pay for.
I COMPLETELY hear you on that one... spore eventually forced me to do a low level format on my hard drive.
Artists and developers are using draconian measures as a last pitiful attempt to keep scumbag pirates from eliminating their livelihoods.
I also have sworn never to buy another game that includes this DRM crap.
You should blame the selfishness of the pirates for this development. People that care for no one besides themselves help us along the road to a world without any great art.
All great art requires patronage. For a while this was from great and wealthy benefactors.
For a while this was the general public through sales. Pirates have ended this phase.
Who will the great benefactor to step up and save great art for the human race??
Unless we are invaded by rich, benevolent aliens that share our aesthetics, NO ONE I fear....
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I just wanted to echo olddaddy's position, which is pretty much mine. Simply put, it is a simple matter for me, I do not, and will not, purchase EA games (ever).
Moreover, I also, as olddaddy said, will not purchase (or play) games with wacko such piracy "protection" features. In fact, one reason I have not been able to play Grand Theft Auto IV is because I feel like everything is being tracked as a I play. I literally have to play with this box in the background.
I do not play companies for trying to protect their IP. In fact, I agree with them: protect your assets. I just do not like it, and as a consumer, I voice my opinion most effectively through purchases and non-purchases. Very (very) uncomplicated for me.
Advocates of Piracy are too stupid to realize that by supporting piracy, they are turning the wheels that are pushing forward complete control of information. With everything YOU pirate, you are pushing forth the effort further to determine when, where and how you can use their products. You are the fuel that is pushing forth their movement.
Well you wanna know what makes me angry.. is when i buy a game and i see alot of people getting the same experience with a copy from the internet... i wonder why did i buy the game?? well i did it because i feel the people that worked their ass doing the game disserve my respect.
When it comes to music, i feel musicians are overpayed anyway... "Jhonas brothers" as an example.. so i only buy the good cds.
Anyway.. i wanted to show some list for you all to think about costs of a normal game so you think were the money goes..
-Production dvd boxes. : This includes dvd, covers, game guides, etc.
- Programmers salary: most games have at least 10-20 programmers, and most games last 1-2 years alot of times more. Programmers cost alot of money, around 60k a year.
- Artist salary: again, lots of them, this includes modelers, texture, lighting, render, concept artist and more.
- Team leads and producers salary
-Marketing salaries
-Publicity
-Online servers: if there are any.
-Production fees
-Taxes
-Licensing fees
-Copyright fees
-And much much more
This are just a few of the costs of making a normal video game.. this goes for 2-3 years. Imagine now, all this hard work for someone to buy a copy of the game and then distribute it on the interwebs to at least 100 people.. and im being nice about the numbers ...
im sure you all can do the math.
Yes piracy is here to stay.., but the change starts with each one of us, and it only makes companies try harder to make better products that the customers cant resist to buy.
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
Yeah, the strategy people like myself adopted was to quit wasting our energy trying to make a living by sharing the art that we love with a bunch of selfish criminal scumbags. Luckily, we still have great music when we get together holidays and weekends.
Eventually movies, music, AND videogames will all be complete shit thanks to you selfish children that support piracy.
I like how you assume that I support piracy because I have a realistic view about it.
I don't support piracy.
I do realize that piracy is not something we can combat without incredible losses in the realm of human rights.
I'm willing to bet that you couldn't make a living with your art because it wasn't that great, not because of pirates. Other people seem to be doing just fine. Maybe you can't accept that.
The fact is, piracy is here to stay, and people are going to have to find new ways to deliver media to the public. Might have to actually stop ripping them off. Funny how these singles services that sell individual songs for a fair price are doing so well.
Maybe it's because people are willing to pay for a fair deal.
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Insulting people you know nothing about doesn't support your case, generally speaking.
Piracy was inevitable given the evolution of technology and the fact that people are selfish and clueless.. I remember telling people that Napster was the beginning of the end of music as we knew it.
The whole discussion is academic at this point anyway, the damage has been done. We'll have to be content with seeing the next generation of great singer-songwriters at open-mic night after they get home from their day jobs.
The Record Industry's Decline
Record sales are tanking, and there's no hope in sight: How it all went wrong
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Indeed.
I'm glad you're not above taking your own advice.
In any case, the record industry is doing poorly because the record industry has decided that it's above changing.
Meanwhile, digital sales are booming and artists are doing just fine.
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Indeed.
I'm glad you're not above taking your own advice.
In any case, the record industry is doing poorly because the record industry has decided that it's above changing.
Meanwhile, digital sales are booming and artists are doing just fine.
I qualified the group of people that I was attacking very clearly. I have open contempt for people who support piracy.
You, on the other hand, presume to know more than you do.
As I said, insulting people you know nothing about does not support your position.
You may make your case that artists are doing fine, but the quality of new music coming out is abysmal.
Oh, what I would give to be able to go out and spend $20 on a carefully crafted album... I guess now I can conveniently download snippets of trite drivel at the bargain price of $0.99.
Never again will we see the likes of The Wall, Blood on the Tracks, Sticky Fingers, The Joshua Tree....
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I DON'T LIKE IT
THAT MEANS IT SUCKS
There's always been "abysmal" music and there's still good music being made today. Piracy isn't doing shit.
Or maybe they've all been such shit for so long now that 99% of them aren't worth paying for so people pirate them?
Indeed.
I'm glad you're not above taking your own advice.
In any case, the record industry is doing poorly because the record industry has decided that it's above changing.
Meanwhile, digital sales are booming and artists are doing just fine.
I qualified the group of people that I was attacking very clearly. I have open contempt for people who support piracy.
You, on the other hand, presume to know more than you do.
As I said, insulting people you know nothing about does not support your position.
You may make your case that artists are doing fine, but the quality of new music coming out is abysmal.
Oh, what I would give to be able to go out and spend $20 on a carefully crafted album... I guess now I can conveniently download snippets of trite drivel at the bargain price of $0.99.
Never again will we see the likes of The Wall, Blood on the Tracks, Sticky Fingers, The Joshua Tree....
Oh dear.
A music elitist.
Look, you, like the record industry, don't like change.
That's fine.
Just don't curse the world when people who aren't irrationally aversive of changes in the entertainment industry are more successful.
People don't enjoy paying $20 to get a few good songs that they like -- with the rest being dislikable or rubbish -- and unfortunately that scenario is all too common.
As I said, people don't like getting ripped off, but they don't mind paying a fair price.
It is clear that you are not a rational person. You have somehow managed to connect the quality of today's music with its distribution method. I am sorry that you are so bitter about it.
In any case, this discussion is not really relevant to the original topic any more.
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Yep, let's drop it.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
O_o o_O
Spoken like a person who has never created anything worthwhile in his life.
This mindset is a recipe for a desolate and artless world. Perhaps it is unavoidable, and perhaps it is what humanity deserves.
Riiight, cause an artist's primary motivation is money. If your manufacturing art for profit, your nothing but a sellout. Real artists create art for art's sake. Of course arguing with you on this subject is pointless as your no better the outfctrl, deadset in your ways, conservative to the core.
Oppress music, it's what the labels have been doing to artists for 50+ years. I live in a world where art is to be shared, not locked behind a door so you can charge money for it. Dirty capitalist...
Riiight, cause an artist's primary motivation is money. If your manufacturing art for profit, your nothing but a sellout. Real artists create art for art's sake. Of course arguing with you on this subject is pointless as your no better the outfctrl, deadset in your ways, conservative to the core.
Oppress music, it's what the labels have been doing to artists for 50+ years. I live in a world where art is to be shared, not locked behind a door so you can charge money for it. Dirty capitalist...
You really think I'm conservative, eh?
Interesting.
I am inflexible in my beliefs about little weasels who think they can help themselves to anyone's intellectual property just because they want it.
I was always happy to spend money on good music. I will never understand how people consider themselves fans when they are so willing to gleefully trash the livelyhood of the musicians that they "like."
What can I say, it has always seemed fair to me to pay for something that I enjoyed.
You are correct though. It is pointless to argue with me on this point. People who pirate music, games, etc. are thieves and they should be treated as such.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Damn so back when i was younger recording songs from the radio on tapes and recording tv shows i was being a worthless good for nothing thief?!
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas