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The term "Grind" is a paradox
The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination.
I really can't stand the term.
What MMO's do all have are "Time Sinks". That is, afterall, the point, to retain subscriptions on a monthly basis by drawing them in to the game with things to do, goals to achieve, etc.
Some games like WoW, allow one to soar through levels quickly, but required an insane time sink for raids, at least years back when I played. I hated that personally.
Other games like Lineage ][, especially when initially released, was considered a huge "grind", because of how long it took to level and gain new skills. While I understood this, for "me", I didn't focus on levels. I loved just playing the game. It was amazing, and probably even more so now, although I haven't played in a year or so.
It just seems to me that the term "Grind" is inappropriately used. Generally a game allows one to move through skills or levels fast and provides "time sinks" in other ways, or a game takes more time to progress in, and that is the "time sink.
If a game is fun, the whole point is to have a time sink. Once the time sink is over, so is the game. Bottom line is one either likes a game, or doesn't. "Grind" is a misleading word, and in the manner some use it so freely to describe games they don't like, words like "whining" are used to categorize posts people make that others don't like. In the same way, both word are over-used hot buttom words and really mean nothing.
-Other
Comments
Games have established rules and goals. Games have playing surfaces. Playing within those rules to reach said goals can be a grinding effort. Games are a grind.
You have to decide if the integrity of the rules, the quality of the playing field, and the execution of the play make it a game you wish to grind through to reach the heights of its goals. Getting to the top is a grind, but if you're enjoying all these components of the game itself, it's all part of reaching the goal. Thus it ceases to become a grind, as if it never was a grind.
When it feels like an unbearable grind, you need to be away from the game. Or all games. Until one makes you feel that its grind isn't really a grind -- merely an arrangement of processes and mechanisms to enjoy and conquer before greater goals.
The term "grind" is actually used in the gaming community as a means of describing a game in which killing a ridiculous number of mobs your level over and over (usually for a few hours). You'll know a grind when you see one, versus quest leveling.
i, personaly, associate grind with repetition. If i am mining the same rock over and over for an hour - its a grind. If i am killing boars in the forrest over and over - its a grind. Grind is something that is a meens to an end, i.e. i want to craft an armor, so i mine or i want new lvl, so i kill boars. I do not think enjoyment is the deciding factor here.
pretty much this.
although grind doesnt necessarily have to be negative. In EQ1 grinding was fun, since you always had at least one short term goal and one or several long term goals to work on. It was more than just reaching the next level.
If grinding is all about reaching the next level, then it is mostly negative.
This. Quests can also feel like a grind.
All MMOs have a grind of some sort. What you have to find is the grind you enjoy. Some people find different grinds enjoyable. Some grinds are less in your face than others but again it's all about what you personally enjoy. Not everyone is going to like what you like, I know, shocking but that's how it is.
I very much agree with your statement. While my brother and I enjoy many of the same MMO's, he is much more prone to camping out at one spot and killing the same things over and over. I am more about doing quests, even if it is a quest like Ether Saga where it goes like this:
"We need to kill the jaguars for their pelts" Go do, complete.
"Now we need their claws, kill thirty more." Go do, complete.
"Now we need their whiskers, go kill thirty more." Go do, complete.
That really is what Ether Saga is like yet I can till bring myself to play it. ><
The grind is not strictly associated with repeatedly killing mobs. "Daily quest grind" ring any bells?
I always thought grind had a negative connotation to it (the way its being used as a bad point for games). However if the definition is doing repetitive stuff over and over again then some grinds are fun and shouldn’t have a negative connotation. It’s this difference in definitions that gets on my nerves. A lot of the times Im not sure which definition people are using
"Grind" is a very subjective term and we will surely not find a definition here in these forums, some ppl will consider doing quests a grind, some ppl will consider having to level professions a grind and some ppl will even consider doing pvp to get ranks/points whatever a grind, at the end of the day it really depends on what goal are you trying to achieve if your going to play an MMO to get to the level cap, sure the game will be a grind cause your not actually enjoying what your doing but rather just want to rush to the level cap.
Vanguard, the new 51+ spells. Component drop rate somewhere below 1:1000, 3 drops needed, 4 types of drops. THIS is a grind.
Aion, at least til 20 has nothing remotely like a grind.
No it is not a paradox, it is just you who don't fully understand its meaning. A "grind" in a computer game is doing something repetetively to reach other parts of the game. It could be not enjoyable but that is not a requirement for being a grind.
I.e. repeteating quests that are very similar to each other can be considered a grind. So can killing mobs over and over also killing people in PvP to gain PvP ranks, or whatever, can also be considered a grind. The requirement is if it is can be considered repetetive or not.
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Grind, like all words and concepts, has a definition:
"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game." -Wikipedia
Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind_(gaming)
Something can be enjoyable but still a grind. But then if people have their own defintion of it is their problem.
My gaming blog
Grind, like all words and concepts, has a definition:
"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game." -Wikipedia
Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind_(gaming)
Then if people have their own defintion of it is their problem.
Again you prove me right, "non-entertaining" are you telling me that anything you find non-entertaining i must find too? Its a subjective term, also you picked up the definition from Wikipedia where it is freely edited, I can just go there and add to the definition that it is a subjective term.
Its ironic that you mention "people have their own definition its their problem" when wikipedia is just "someones definition".
Grind, like all words and concepts, has a definition:
"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game." -Wikipedia
Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind_(gaming)
Then if people have their own defintion of it is their problem.
Again you prove me right, "non-entertaining" are you telling me that anything you find non-entertaining i must find too? Its a subjective term, also you picked up the definition from Wikipedia where it is freely edited, I can just go there and add to the definition that it is a subjective term.
Apparently you missed the point so I had highlighted it for you above. And I suggest you read the whole article before jumping to conclusions. Being just "non-entertaining" is not enough for it to be grind. I find FPS games to be non-entertaining but that is not enough for them to be a grind because I dont care about gaining access to other contents, I just find FPS games non-entertaining.
As for being subjective. Yeah sure, words like fun, boring, etc are also all subjective but grind is less subjective because it has specific requirements for it to be considered a grind.
Also, Wikipedia is monitored so if you go and edit something and add something that is completely assined it will be removed.
But there are other defintion for it, just Google it. Here is another that I found most basic:
"A grind is a sequence of actions that is repeated (over and over) with the expectation of receiving some eventual reward as compensation."
The point is that it is repetetive and you get a reward at the end. The subjective part I guess is what you find repetetive or not.
PS: I am not arguing if it is subjective or not, many words are subjective, but all words have a broadly recognized definition. If not then noone would be able to communicate properly.
My gaming blog
Grind, like all words and concepts, has a definition:
"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game." -Wikipedia
Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind_(gaming)
Then if people have their own defintion of it is their problem.
Again you prove me right, "non-entertaining" are you telling me that anything you find non-entertaining i must find too? Its a subjective term, also you picked up the definition from Wikipedia where it is freely edited, I can just go there and add to the definition that it is a subjective term.
Apparently you missed the point so I had highlighted it for you above. And I suggest you read the whole article before jumping to conclusions. Being just "non-entertaining" is not enough for it to be grind. I find FPS games to be non-entertaining but that is not enough for them to be a grind because I dont care about gaining access to other contents, I just find FPS games non-entertaining.
As for being subjective. Yeah sure, words like fun, boring, etc are also all subjective but grind is less subjective because it has specific requirements for it to be considered a grind.
Also, Wikipedia is monitored so if you go and edit something and add something that is completely assined it will be removed.
But there are other defintion for it, just Google it. Here is another that I found most basic:
"A grind is a sequence of actions that is repeated (over and over) with the expectation of receiving some eventual reward as compensation."
The point is that it is repetetive and you get a reward at the end. The subjective part I guess is what you find repetetive or not.
I think you missed your point again and just highlighted the bit that interests you it says AND/OR not OR NON-ENTRETAINING
It means that grind can also mean that is repetitive and non-entretaining or just non-entretaining content, then again refer to what i have highlighted in green, you say if "people have their definition of it its their problem" yet wikipedia is just someone's own definition of grind.
"A grind is a sequence of actions that is repeated (over and over) with the expectation of receiving some eventual reward as compensation."
Again, if my compensation is seeing mobs die then killing mobs over and over again wouldnt be a grind. As a matter of fact by that definition everything you do in life is a grind, eating is a grind because you repeatedly put food in your mouth to feed yourself, breathing is a grind because you repeatedly inhale and exhale to keep yourself alive, in game every single element is a grind, because you have to put your right foot in front of your left foot repeatedly to walk anywhere which would render the word void.
Edit: I understand your point not attacking you in any way, maybe we are just discussing different views altogether hehe, while yes "Grind" does have a definition on its own its void unless applied to a context that is completely subjective. That is my point.
The term 'Grind' is subjective, as many have already pointed out, and which seems to be your original point. You need to go and look up the meaning of 'Paradox'..
Grind, like all words and concepts, has a definition:
"Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game." -Wikipedia
Link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grind_(gaming)
Something can be enjoyable but still a grind. But then if people have their own defintion of it is their problem.
That’s, what I hate about this word. I don’t know if the person who mentions grinding is saying its repetitive and non-entertaing OR just repetitive. Ah well…
I think you should take your own suggestion. Something being subjective and a paradox are VASTLY different. A paradox is a contradiction of a sort where as subjective is that it can mean different things to different people.
That is the point I am trying to get across but apparently you stubbornly refuse to accept it.
Subjective = Something that means different things to different people. Fun is subjective word, boring is a subjective word because you can't say objectively that something is "fun" because that all depends on who you are asking. A "grind" in MMORPGs can also be considered subjective but less so than fun and boring because there are specific requirements to it. So you could in fact, objectively, say that something is a grind if it involves doing something repeteadly. But then the question comes what is considered repetetive.
Paradox = A statement or several statements that lead to a contradiction. Boring is not a paradox, fun is not a paradox and neither is a grind. Subjective and paradox ARE NOT THE SAME. For example the infamous barber paradox: A barber that shaves everyone who does not shave themselves, and noone else. So does he shave himself?
Definition = Is a sentance that describes a word/concept. And you can very well define a subjective therm. For example you can define the word fun by saying that it is something that someone finds enjoyable. You can even define a paradox, like I did above.
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Yes, I think we are saying the same thing but in different ways. You are saying that a grind is a subjective therm, and I agree, however I am saying that there are still definitions for subjective therms and that it has nothing to do with being a paradox which is something very specific and unrelated to subjective/objective.
My gaming blog
I think you should take your own suggestion. Something being subjective and a paradox are VASTLY different. A paradox is a contradiction of a sort where as subjective is that it can mean different things to different people.
That is the point I am trying to get across but apparently you stubbornly refuse to accept it.
Subjective = Something that means different things to different people. Fun is subjective word, boring is a subjective word because you can't say objectively that something is "fun" because that all depends on who you are asking. A "grind" in MMORPGs can also be considered subjective but less so than fun and boring because there are specific requirements to it. So you could in fact, objectively, say that something is a grind if it involves doing something repeteadly. But then the question comes what is considered repetetive.
Paradox = A statement or several statements that lead to a contradiction. Boring is not a paradox, fun is not a paradox and neither is a grind. Subjective and paradox ARE NOT THE SAME. For example the infamous barber paradox: A barber that shaves everyone who does not shave themselves, and noone else. So does he shave himself?
Definition = Is a sentance that describes a word/concept. And you can very well define a subjective therm. For example you can define the word fun by saying that it is something that someone finds enjoyable. You can even define a paradox, like I did above.
Well aware that Paradox and subjective aren't the same. Explain then, how one word can be a Paradox?
(Edit) Sorry, I don't entirely disagree with the point you're trying to make, just don't agree that it's a paradox. And you just said as much in your above post.
The original poster nailed it.
The minute you start considering the game "a grind", it means the fun factor is not there anymore. Doesn't matter if it's a grind for levels, gear or reputation.
When you like to do something in a game, you don't even bother to put a name on it. You just enjoy it and don't ask any questions.
Creativity : The ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods or interpretations; using originality, progressiveness, or imagination.
if a game doesnt have good story ,or worst like most f2p no story at all ,and no music of their own
like they just buy the music from guildwars and put it in their game
etc,im sorry but its worst then a grind
lot of f2p game are not good they would have been good in the 80s
when any game maker doesnt post a genearl blue or wtv they used or note to say what issue they re trying to fix ,it send the message to player that hes being ignored
but if that game maker once a month put a note of issue being looked at they wont receive 3 million about same problem lol
like me today cant log on on my favorite game patch 1841 came out but no note no info on general problem they re looking in etc
its hard for any player to stick to any game if he feal the game make isnt connected with the gamer at least a bit
it isnt long to write on game website and keep people up to date
and in my view if you dont keep your gamers upto date you are being ignored
and ignored player from xgame shouldnt play that game there are too many game nowaday to put up with these bad situation
I think you missunderstand me. I am saying it is NOT and CANNOT be a paradox, as I gave an example of what being a paradox is.
However I agree with the term "grind" is subjective as it varies from people to people what they find is a repetetive task. I find killing AI mobs to be repetetive, also killing player mobs to be repeteive and same with quests. So for me all of those are a grind.
However I do find killing players to be enjoyable but that does not stop it from becoming a grind if I have to repeat it 1000 times to gain some benefit. So I don't think grinding is neccessary a bad thing but it is mostly subjective yes. (but not a paradox which is something completely different).
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If you grind so you can grind some more then YOU are a grinder, not the game