I couldn't really care much less about the game, but I do feel compelled to respond ...
Best. Ever. : )
I agree. I think what Sal had to say here really shows what the haters are about. They just hate the game because the game is so good and they only wish they could play it but they just cannot handle it. Why else would you feel compelled about something you publicly hate ?
I hate country music but you don't see me running around country music forums bashing the music and the artists and the listeners.
Never have I played a MMO where 5 year old vets dedicate their play-time to train and help the newbs (<- EVE University)
Never have I played a MMO where I got *ganked*killed*murdered* by another player, and the player started a conversation with me explaining what I did wrong, and gave me 10 mill to buy a decent ship for a rematch.
Never have I played a MMO where the politics/wars are really meaningfull, oh wait, you mean, GO GO GET THE FLG NUBS, I HAZ NEED MOAR REPUTATION!!!
nah, I really like EVE, it's my cup of tea, I like to overthink my strategy, test out various fittings, help my corp to defend or attack a POS. well, everybody has their own form of entertainment! Sure if you like to raid the same dungeon 5 times a week for months to get the full set of Epic Uberness, by al means, DO IT! Just leave us happy EVE players alone,... whats the point in starting intardwebz fights over a frickin' game?
I like games where, at least to a large degree, outcomes are based on what you do in the moment more than what you did the weeks and months before the moment. Knowledge based combat, or tactical based combat, is all fine an dandy but without substantial real time elements involved things become to much about what you are than what you do. That isn't to say that ultimately the better player doesn't win, it is what defines a better player (better planning of skill training, better outfitting of a ship, better knowledge of game mechanics and such like in EVE) that I judge my interest on and in EVE to much of what makes a better players seems to be about things that happen before the fight rather than during the fight. I respect the game and its success, I just find it has what I am most interested in when it comes to an MMO in the crucial component of combat (love the rest though, open world - sandbox, complex itemization and economy, etc).
What you say is true... to an extent...
Yes, a LOT of what happens in a battle is dictated by your preparation and training. But in a small gang (or even larger gang) fight (as opposed to huge blobby fleet fights) what you do in the NOW absolutely does effect the outcome of the fight. As a merc who is often in gangs smaller than the gangs we're fighting against, or in smaller ships, what we do in the *now* during a fight is absolutely essential to 'get it right' in the *now* or we will lose. You can't get that in EVE if you're fighting 50+ man fleet fights because once you pass a certain fleet size it's more about numbers and focus fire than about tactics.
In small gangs though? What you do in the NOW is absolutely the most important aspect of the game. Even a 6 month old "newbie" can have a huge impact on small gang fights. I've personally witnessed gangs of 'elite vet players' get barbequeued by gangs of much lower SP players. While Noir. is starting to have a lot more high SP players we still have a number of newer (under 1yr) players who contribute to the group just fine. So I do agree with you in general... but in EVE you can find groups where you can get the type of combat you're looking for.
I think a more accurate statement is that in EVE it's more about the tactics you and your gang employ than the actual skill you bring to the table as a "player". personal twitch skills really don't help much in EVE. It's all about the tactics you choose to employ and the tactics your FC employs and how well your group applies the tactic verses how well the opposing group employs their tactic. It has nothing to do with your ability to pull an immelman or a double reverse loop or a side winder barrel roll in space.
And, yes, I get where those things appeal to some more than tactical combat does. It's one of the reasons I still look forward to JumpGate: Evolution. Because that type of combat is available there where it's not in EVE. In EVE it's about planning, training and tactics. In other games its much more about personal skill.
And we won't even get into the whole: EVE is Sci-Fi whereas the other 99% of the MMO community is fantasy.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
What you say is true... to an extent... Yes, a LOT of what happens in a battle is dictated by your preparation and training. But in a small gang (or even larger gang) fight (as opposed to huge blobby fleet fights) what you do in the NOW absolutely does effect the outcome of the fight. As a merc who is often in gangs smaller than the gangs we're fighting against, or in smaller ships, what we do in the *now* during a fight is absolutely essential to 'get it right' in the *now* or we will lose. You can't get that in EVE if you're fighting 50+ man fleet fights because once you pass a certain fleet size it's more about numbers and focus fire than about tactics. In small gangs though? What you do in the NOW is absolutely the most important aspect of the game. Even a 6 month old "newbie" can have a huge impact on small gang fights. I've personally witnessed gangs of 'elite vet players' get barbequeued by gangs of much lower SP players. While Noir. is starting to have a lot more high SP players we still have a number of newer (under 1yr) players who contribute to the group just fine. So I do agree with you in general... but in EVE you can find groups where you can get the type of combat you're looking for. I think a more accurate statement is that in EVE it's more about the tactics you and your gang employ than the actual skill you bring to the table as a "player". personal twitch skills really don't help much in EVE. It's all about the tactics you choose to employ and the tactics your FC employs and how well your group applies the tactic verses how well the opposing group employs their tactic. It has nothing to do with your ability to pull an immelman or a double reverse loop or a side winder barrel roll in space. And, yes, I get where those things appeal to some more than tactical combat does. It's one of the reasons I still look forward to JumpGate: Evolution. Because that type of combat is available there where it's not in EVE. In EVE it's about planning, training and tactics. In other games its much more about personal skill. And we won't even get into the whole: EVE is Sci-Fi whereas the other 99% of the MMO community is fantasy.
Let me offer a bad example of what I mean. If EVE where based on gold then you would simply chose the club to hit as the avatar went around the course. The main focus of the game would be on the skills you give you golfer and the quality and type of clubs you equip your golfer with even though in the moment you would make real time decisions about how and when he uses those things you have outfitted him with. What I am saying is that I just find it boring to just click 'use the 6 iron' for a combat model, I want to be involved in the swing pace and aim, reading the greens, etc. That is not to disparage the complexity and depth of the things in EVE pre combat or the knowledge during combat to know when to use the 6 iron and when to use the 5 iron - I just think many people want more involvement in the moment than that even as EVE serves those that like it very well.
I know that in combat, of any type, there are things you do in the moment that are relevant to the outcome - I was not saying this is not the case. But I think we can agree that most of that stuff is more knowledge based than action based (i.e. do you use that scrambler at the right now, now the way you use it because the only option is to use or not use). EVE is not a game of doing it is a game of knowing, that is not bad that is just not what some or a lot of folks are looking for in a MMO type game. But again, EVE's success comes form doing what it does well and it does the knowledge based economy, empire, and combat management game very well.
Lord, I completely understand where your frustration comes from. Quite frankly I get a a good laugh out of it every time you "lose it" and start saying what most of the rest of us are thinking.
But just remember- things that are great and innovative will always be misunderstood and maligned. This is a natural tendency people have when they "sense" that there is something really groundbreaking going on but they can't grasp it for themselves.
Yes, I totally just compared eve to great and unknowable Tao.
That should send all of our local eve bashers into a whole new round of hysterical flagellations.
(p.s. if anyone out there is confused enough to take this post seriously, please see a mental health professional at your earliest convenience)
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Those of us that like the game like to discuss it here.
What purpose does it serve when those of you that dislike the game to come here constantly and talk about how much it sucks? Of course we have a natuaral tendency to defend something that we like- I know I've tried on multiple occasions to be civil about it..
We like eve, you don't. That's great.. not everyone has the same taste.
But look at Salvatoris' post history (and his SIG ffs) and you'll see that he devotes a lot of energy to nothing more than COMPLAINING about eve and the people who play it.
He established that he doesn't like the game a long time ago.. now he just comes here to talk trash for his own entertainment. It is usually quite entertaining, but sometimes even I get tired of his broken record.
Should I figure out which games you eve bashers like and go hang out in your forum just to tell you how much your game sucks?
No, because:
1) my adolescence ended a long time ago, and
2) I'm not going to spend a huge amount of energy on something i don't give a rat's ass about, and
3) IT IS PERFECTLY FINE THAT NOT EVERYONE ENJOYS THE SAME THINGS.
You guys that come in here just to bash that game look like angry little children. Everyone here knows it, and deep down inside you guys know it too.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I am sorry but do you guys bitching about people bitching about EVE really believe that EVE fans are not on the Jumpgate EVO or Black Prophecy boards on occasion ragging their game too? Not say all of you do that but face it, all games have people that run around attackign other similar games it is part fo the weird fanboy thing. And I will add, that they attacks I see from EVE players to people who are even questioning things (like some of what I got in different places when I was learning to play and not understanding things) is VERY elitist in nature. Some EVE players, in my expereince, do seem to think that they are better than other MMO players because they like EVE - as if success and enjoyment in EVE requires being some kind of a better person than success or enjoyment of another MMO. Of course that is ridiculous - we all like what w all like - this is not Shakespeare verse South Park but it is quite often that EVE players talk down to folks as if EVE is Shakespear to other games South Park.
I am sorry but do you guys bitching about people bitching about EVE really believe that EVE fans are not on the Jumpgate EVO or Black Prophecy boards on occasion ragging their game too? Not say all of you do that but face it, all games have people that run around attackign other similar games it is part fo the weird fanboy thing. And I will add, that they attacks I see from EVE players to people who are even questioning things (like some of what I got in different places when I was learning to play and not understanding things) is VERY elitist in nature. Some EVE players, in my expereince, do seem to think that they are better than other MMO players because they like EVE - as if success and enjoyment in EVE requires being some kind of a better person than success or enjoyment of another MMO. Of course that is ridiculous - we all like what w all like - this is not Shakespeare verse South Park but it is quite often that EVE players talk down to folks as if EVE is Shakespear to other games South Park.
Edit- ALSO link me some posts where eve fans are bashing other games in their own forums. If they are doing this I'll be happy to call them out for the same childish behavior. I've never done it/ seen it myself.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
The really ironic part is this... People love to say how complex and cerebral Eve's combat is because it's all about planing, tactics, choosing the right gear and knowing when the fight and when to run. Funny thing is, all that takes place in other games too. The only difference is that after all the preparation, in other games you actually have to manually engage in combat. In Eve you just watch it unfold and hope for the best. Other games make you manage their equivalent of position, ammo, heat and energy WHILE you manually pilot aim and fire your weapons or skills.
I just don't see how Eve is any more complex than the average MMO. It's a fallacy perpetuated by the fanbots to help them continue to feel superior to the rest of us.
Originally posted by Salvatoris The really ironic part is this... People love to say how complex and cerebral Eve's combat is because it's all about planing, tactics, choosing the right gear and knowing when the fight and when to run. Funny thing is, all that takes place in other games too. The only difference is that after all the preparation, in other games you actually have to manually engage in combat. In Eve you just watch it unfold and hope for the best. Other games make you manage their equivalent of position, ammo, heat and energy WHILE you manually pilot aim and fire your weapons or skills. I just don't see how Eve is any more complex than the average MMO. It's a fallacy perpetuated by the fanbots to help them continue to feel superior to the rest of us.
That's pretty much it, Sal. You hit the nail on the head. While other games have tactic + manual skill involved in combat, EVE is more focused on tactic due 'automated' piloting. That is why it is more complex and tactical because that's all you have and you rely on.
Note: I simplified it a bit but the principle remains.
Other games make you manage their equivalent of position, ammo, heat and energy WHILE you manually pilot aim and fire your weapons or skills.
This would be kind of cool if you could play eve cooperatively with a crew of 5-10 people to a ship.
Of course even then it would be ridiculous to think that any type of navigation/ weapons management in space will ever be handled by anything other than a computer.
I know you may be in love with the idea of Han Solo and Luke Skywalker manually killing tie fighters in the Falcon's ball turrets.. but think about it realistically.. if we ever do make it to the point where we are fighting in space human reaction time is going to be COMPLETELY inadequate to handle anything manually.
The thought of trying to manually aim and fire 8 turrets+ ewar in an eve tactical environment is quite frankly laughable.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I didn't like Eve mainly because I found it to be boring. It had absolutely nothing to do with the level of difficulty. I just didn't find anything compelling to do within a month of playing. I did have a list of other things I didn't enjoy, like point and click movement, real-time skill training, lame PvE missions, in game currency sales, harsh death penalty and the near absolute focus on shopping. I could have overlooked most of those if I was having any fun playing. I never found the game to be difficult to understand or control.
Posting these criticisms here got me a flood of responses saying that I wasn't intelligent or mature enough to enjoy the game. It's the standard response to any criticism of the game. it's usually accompanied by Eve fanboys telling people that their opinions are "wrong". That is what compels me to post on these forums. You keep implying that there has to be some sort of sinister motive to my posts, some grudge against Eve... I'll say it again. While I don't enjoy Eve, that is neither here nor there... I absolutely can't stand the absurd attitude of elitism that compels Eve fanboys to say that other peoples opinions and preferences are "wrong" and that they just aren't smart enough to appreciate the game.
I just don't know about these forums anymore. I guess they have been this way a while now but I remember this place being alot nicer. This forum used to be helpful and friendly chat amonst the fans of Eve. Now it's nothing more than trolls, whiners and just plain douchebags. For this I am going to leave these forums all together.
I know I am probably not allowed to comment of the forum moderation but I will say this anyways:
Forum mods, you guys need to tighten up your shit around here. You let far too many trolls go for way too long. This is not to say I am not guilty of any wrong doings myself. I have been issued many warnings when I really should have been banned after so many but so should the trolls you allow to be so prevelant.
Now back on thread topic. Why is Eves playerbase growing ?
Simple as this. CCP makes a great well crafted product (yes I said crafted because that is what Eve is). Eve is a niche market game that started low, really low in numbers so it could only go up. Any other MMO under the standard publishing deal would have folded and gone away for ever and no one today would even be here bitching or praising the game. Instead CCP survived after their original publisher left and has kept to their vision, not changing THEIR game design to the whim of the forum whiners.
The whiners and bashers all want to point out the flaws and things they really hate in a game. To them I say it's fine to not like the game. Eve is not perfect and is not trying to be something to everyone, Eve is simply trying to be the be the best game it can be for the niche market it is catering to. So what if games like WoW has 12 bajillion subscribers ? Quanity is not quality, just think McDonalds if you need to. It may not be your kind of game but you know what ? It's my type of game. After playing just about every damn game made in the last 30 years Eve is the only game I think about playing.
To all those who want another server, consentual risk free pvp and all other lame and idiotic game breaking ideas please just leave Eve alone. You all have your games that you want already, why do you feel that Eve needs to copy these other games so badly ? Eve would have folded long ago if they had tried to be like all those fantasy based class and loot determined games. Why do you think you keep seeing so many fail ?
Eve continues to grow and suceed because it is different and is of high quality which is always a profitable combo in business. Eves amazing growth is however offset by the fact it started so low to begin with but it has been consistently steady and I am glad I was there to see it from beta to now. I will be there for the next ten years or more to see what CCP brings to Eve next while all those other people are shelling out another 50$ for a rehashed sequel or expansion pack.
I know I left a long post but this is my final post here on these forums. And for those that think this is TL;DR, well that is why you will never "get" Eve.
The really ironic part is this... People love to say how complex and cerebral Eve's combat is because it's all about planing, tactics, choosing the right gear and knowing when the fight and when to run. Funny thing is, all that takes place in other games too. The only difference is that after all the preparation, in other games you actually have to manually engage in combat. In Eve you just watch it unfold and hope for the best. Other games make you manage their equivalent of position, ammo, heat and energy WHILE you manually pilot aim and fire your weapons or skills.
I just don't see how Eve is any more complex than the average MMO. It's a fallacy perpetuated by the fanbots to help them continue to feel superior to the rest of us.
That's pretty much it, Sal. You hit the nail on the head. While other games have tactic + manual skill involved in combat, EVE is more focused on tactic due 'automated' piloting. That is why it is more complex and tactical because that's all you have and you rely on.
Note: I simplified it a bit but the principle remains.
Yup in all those other games you click a mouse and press keys on a keyboard....The difference is truly mind boggling.
Then there's that thing were your mouse clicks and key pressing actually have an impact on the virtual world on multiple levels. The real reason EVE continues to keep and grow it's playerbase. Like to see jump elf or what ever it's called compete with that.
I just don't know about these forums anymore. I guess they have been this way a while now but I remember this place being alot nicer. This forum used to be helpful and friendly chat amonst the fans of Eve. Now it's nothing more than trolls, whiners and just plain douchebags. For this I am going to leave these forums all together.
I'll make you a deal. If you quit posting here, so will I. All my posts are just about you calling people idiots for not enjoying Eve... So I'll promise right now not to post here again until you do.
No, it just looks like you are obsessed with eve and won't let it go.
People give you a hard time because there is wide agreement that your criticism of the game is largely based on fundamentally flawed ideas. That, and you INSIST on continuing to post here when it is clear you want to do nothing but complain.
Personally I've grown fond of your presence here and i hope you never leave. Almost every one of your posts is a source of at least some amusement.
I think we should make you the official eve forum court jester.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I am sorry but do you guys bitching about people bitching about EVE really believe that EVE fans are not on the Jumpgate EVO or Black Prophecy boards on occasion ragging their game too? Not say all of you do that but face it, all games have people that run around attackign other similar games it is part fo the weird fanboy thing. And I will add, that they attacks I see from EVE players to people who are even questioning things (like some of what I got in different places when I was learning to play and not understanding things) is VERY elitist in nature. Some EVE players, in my expereince, do seem to think that they are better than other MMO players because they like EVE - as if success and enjoyment in EVE requires being some kind of a better person than success or enjoyment of another MMO. Of course that is ridiculous - we all like what w all like - this is not Shakespeare verse South Park but it is quite often that EVE players talk down to folks as if EVE is Shakespear to other games South Park.
Edit- ALSO link me some posts where eve fans are bashing other games in their own forums. If they are doing this I'll be happy to call them out for the same childish behavior. I've never done it/ seen it myself.
If your reply here doesn't make the point of 'elitism' then no link or words will. Seriously, you are going to argue that no EVE fans ever post in other forums saying why they think EVE is better or just saying they think another game is lame? That is insane.
If your reply here doesn't make the point of 'elitism' then no link or words will. Seriously, you are going to argue that no EVE fans ever post in other forums saying why they think EVE is better or just saying they think another game is lame? That is insane.
If you can't figure out self-deprecating humor when you see it.. dunno what more I can do to help you out.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
For me Eve provides a level of complexity and challange that simply dose not exist in other games. I think that is why it continues to grow steadily, it just takes a certain kind of person to play Eve long term. It helps that the complexity of Eve branches into two areas instead of just one- making heaps of isk and second ruthlessly killing each other.
As for walking in stations it will remain a side segment of the game not heavily utilized until it is manipulated to facilitate one of the previously mentioned areas of the game. It will be much more interesting, complex and challenging when you and your gang can hang outside a door choke point waiting for someone to come walking through. At which time the smallest fastest member of your gang will throw himself at the person with reckless abandon hoping to get tackle and web on him. While that happens another member will spray the toon in the face with pepper spray so he cant target anyone. After that everyone else will jump on him with knives, stabbing the poor carebear repeatedly until they melt him and he dies. Then they will strip him of everything they can sell for isk including various organs and then run like crazy before Concord arrives or another gang lands on them. Ah...walking in stations Eve style...PvP and isk all rolled into one!
If your reply here doesn't make the point of 'elitism' then no link or words will. Seriously, you are going to argue that no EVE fans ever post in other forums saying why they think EVE is better or just saying they think another game is lame? That is insane.
If you can't figure out self-deprecating humor when you see it.. dunno what more I can do to help you out.
Oh come on - you didn't say that in jest you where arguing that EVE players don't do that kind of thing.
If your reply here doesn't make the point of 'elitism' then no link or words will. Seriously, you are going to argue that no EVE fans ever post in other forums saying why they think EVE is better or just saying they think another game is lame? That is insane.
If you can't figure out self-deprecating humor when you see it.. dunno what more I can do to help you out.
LOL I got it strait from the start Comparing EVE to Chess is just an insult to Chess. EVE is a frakin MMO meant for blowing things and drinkin beer IMHO. Not weak but not impressive try at a straw dog I would say. Probably would have worked in the WOW forums.
Comments
Best. Ever. : )
I agree. I think what Sal had to say here really shows what the haters are about. They just hate the game because the game is so good and they only wish they could play it but they just cannot handle it. Why else would you feel compelled about something you publicly hate ?
I hate country music but you don't see me running around country music forums bashing the music and the artists and the listeners.
EVE = best community ever.
Never have I played a MMO where 5 year old vets dedicate their play-time to train and help the newbs (<- EVE University)
Never have I played a MMO where I got *ganked*killed*murdered* by another player, and the player started a conversation with me explaining what I did wrong, and gave me 10 mill to buy a decent ship for a rematch.
Never have I played a MMO where the politics/wars are really meaningfull, oh wait, you mean, GO GO GET THE FLG NUBS, I HAZ NEED MOAR REPUTATION!!!
nah, I really like EVE, it's my cup of tea, I like to overthink my strategy, test out various fittings, help my corp to defend or attack a POS. well, everybody has their own form of entertainment! Sure if you like to raid the same dungeon 5 times a week for months to get the full set of Epic Uberness, by al means, DO IT! Just leave us happy EVE players alone,... whats the point in starting intardwebz fights over a frickin' game?
Playing EVE Online
(PM me for the EVE 21-day trial program)
What you say is true... to an extent...
Yes, a LOT of what happens in a battle is dictated by your preparation and training. But in a small gang (or even larger gang) fight (as opposed to huge blobby fleet fights) what you do in the NOW absolutely does effect the outcome of the fight. As a merc who is often in gangs smaller than the gangs we're fighting against, or in smaller ships, what we do in the *now* during a fight is absolutely essential to 'get it right' in the *now* or we will lose. You can't get that in EVE if you're fighting 50+ man fleet fights because once you pass a certain fleet size it's more about numbers and focus fire than about tactics.
In small gangs though? What you do in the NOW is absolutely the most important aspect of the game. Even a 6 month old "newbie" can have a huge impact on small gang fights. I've personally witnessed gangs of 'elite vet players' get barbequeued by gangs of much lower SP players. While Noir. is starting to have a lot more high SP players we still have a number of newer (under 1yr) players who contribute to the group just fine. So I do agree with you in general... but in EVE you can find groups where you can get the type of combat you're looking for.
I think a more accurate statement is that in EVE it's more about the tactics you and your gang employ than the actual skill you bring to the table as a "player". personal twitch skills really don't help much in EVE. It's all about the tactics you choose to employ and the tactics your FC employs and how well your group applies the tactic verses how well the opposing group employs their tactic. It has nothing to do with your ability to pull an immelman or a double reverse loop or a side winder barrel roll in space.
And, yes, I get where those things appeal to some more than tactical combat does. It's one of the reasons I still look forward to JumpGate: Evolution. Because that type of combat is available there where it's not in EVE. In EVE it's about planning, training and tactics. In other games its much more about personal skill.
And we won't even get into the whole: EVE is Sci-Fi whereas the other 99% of the MMO community is fantasy.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
Let me offer a bad example of what I mean. If EVE where based on gold then you would simply chose the club to hit as the avatar went around the course. The main focus of the game would be on the skills you give you golfer and the quality and type of clubs you equip your golfer with even though in the moment you would make real time decisions about how and when he uses those things you have outfitted him with. What I am saying is that I just find it boring to just click 'use the 6 iron' for a combat model, I want to be involved in the swing pace and aim, reading the greens, etc. That is not to disparage the complexity and depth of the things in EVE pre combat or the knowledge during combat to know when to use the 6 iron and when to use the 5 iron - I just think many people want more involvement in the moment than that even as EVE serves those that like it very well.
I know that in combat, of any type, there are things you do in the moment that are relevant to the outcome - I was not saying this is not the case. But I think we can agree that most of that stuff is more knowledge based than action based (i.e. do you use that scrambler at the right now, now the way you use it because the only option is to use or not use). EVE is not a game of doing it is a game of knowing, that is not bad that is just not what some or a lot of folks are looking for in a MMO type game. But again, EVE's success comes form doing what it does well and it does the knowledge based economy, empire, and combat management game very well.
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Lord, I completely understand where your frustration comes from. Quite frankly I get a a good laugh out of it every time you "lose it" and start saying what most of the rest of us are thinking.
But just remember- things that are great and innovative will always be misunderstood and maligned. This is a natural tendency people have when they "sense" that there is something really groundbreaking going on but they can't grasp it for themselves.
Remember what Lao Tzu said in the Tao te Ching:
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.
Yes, I totally just compared eve to great and unknowable Tao.
That should send all of our local eve bashers into a whole new round of hysterical flagellations.
(p.s. if anyone out there is confused enough to take this post seriously, please see a mental health professional at your earliest convenience)
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Please stay on-topic and leave the personal remarks elsewhere. Thanks!
Can't we just agree to disagree?
Some of us love eve and think it is brilliant.
Some of you think it is lame.
Those of us that like the game like to discuss it here.
What purpose does it serve when those of you that dislike the game to come here constantly and talk about how much it sucks? Of course we have a natuaral tendency to defend something that we like- I know I've tried on multiple occasions to be civil about it..
We like eve, you don't. That's great.. not everyone has the same taste.
But look at Salvatoris' post history (and his SIG ffs) and you'll see that he devotes a lot of energy to nothing more than COMPLAINING about eve and the people who play it.
He established that he doesn't like the game a long time ago.. now he just comes here to talk trash for his own entertainment. It is usually quite entertaining, but sometimes even I get tired of his broken record.
Should I figure out which games you eve bashers like and go hang out in your forum just to tell you how much your game sucks?
No, because:
1) my adolescence ended a long time ago, and
2) I'm not going to spend a huge amount of energy on something i don't give a rat's ass about, and
3) IT IS PERFECTLY FINE THAT NOT EVERYONE ENJOYS THE SAME THINGS.
You guys that come in here just to bash that game look like angry little children. Everyone here knows it, and deep down inside you guys know it too.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I am sorry but do you guys bitching about people bitching about EVE really believe that EVE fans are not on the Jumpgate EVO or Black Prophecy boards on occasion ragging their game too? Not say all of you do that but face it, all games have people that run around attackign other similar games it is part fo the weird fanboy thing. And I will add, that they attacks I see from EVE players to people who are even questioning things (like some of what I got in different places when I was learning to play and not understanding things) is VERY elitist in nature. Some EVE players, in my expereince, do seem to think that they are better than other MMO players because they like EVE - as if success and enjoyment in EVE requires being some kind of a better person than success or enjoyment of another MMO. Of course that is ridiculous - we all like what w all like - this is not Shakespeare verse South Park but it is quite often that EVE players talk down to folks as if EVE is Shakespear to other games South Park.
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There is no similar game to EVE on the market. /shrugs
*feels cheated*
I'd say it's closer to chess vs. whack-a-mole.
Edit- ALSO link me some posts where eve fans are bashing other games in their own forums. If they are doing this I'll be happy to call them out for the same childish behavior. I've never done it/ seen it myself.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
The really ironic part is this... People love to say how complex and cerebral Eve's combat is because it's all about planing, tactics, choosing the right gear and knowing when the fight and when to run. Funny thing is, all that takes place in other games too. The only difference is that after all the preparation, in other games you actually have to manually engage in combat. In Eve you just watch it unfold and hope for the best. Other games make you manage their equivalent of position, ammo, heat and energy WHILE you manually pilot aim and fire your weapons or skills.
I just don't see how Eve is any more complex than the average MMO. It's a fallacy perpetuated by the fanbots to help them continue to feel superior to the rest of us.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
i think ive figured out why sally found eve so hard, he just turned on his guns and went afk then came back and looked all surprised that he had died.
That's pretty much it, Sal. You hit the nail on the head. While other games have tactic + manual skill involved in combat, EVE is more focused on tactic due 'automated' piloting. That is why it is more complex and tactical because that's all you have and you rely on.
Note: I simplified it a bit but the principle remains.
This would be kind of cool if you could play eve cooperatively with a crew of 5-10 people to a ship.
Of course even then it would be ridiculous to think that any type of navigation/ weapons management in space will ever be handled by anything other than a computer.
I know you may be in love with the idea of Han Solo and Luke Skywalker manually killing tie fighters in the Falcon's ball turrets.. but think about it realistically.. if we ever do make it to the point where we are fighting in space human reaction time is going to be COMPLETELY inadequate to handle anything manually.
The thought of trying to manually aim and fire 8 turrets+ ewar in an eve tactical environment is quite frankly laughable.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I didn't like Eve mainly because I found it to be boring. It had absolutely nothing to do with the level of difficulty. I just didn't find anything compelling to do within a month of playing. I did have a list of other things I didn't enjoy, like point and click movement, real-time skill training, lame PvE missions, in game currency sales, harsh death penalty and the near absolute focus on shopping. I could have overlooked most of those if I was having any fun playing. I never found the game to be difficult to understand or control.
Posting these criticisms here got me a flood of responses saying that I wasn't intelligent or mature enough to enjoy the game. It's the standard response to any criticism of the game. it's usually accompanied by Eve fanboys telling people that their opinions are "wrong". That is what compels me to post on these forums. You keep implying that there has to be some sort of sinister motive to my posts, some grudge against Eve... I'll say it again. While I don't enjoy Eve, that is neither here nor there... I absolutely can't stand the absurd attitude of elitism that compels Eve fanboys to say that other peoples opinions and preferences are "wrong" and that they just aren't smart enough to appreciate the game.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
I just don't know about these forums anymore. I guess they have been this way a while now but I remember this place being alot nicer. This forum used to be helpful and friendly chat amonst the fans of Eve. Now it's nothing more than trolls, whiners and just plain douchebags. For this I am going to leave these forums all together.
I know I am probably not allowed to comment of the forum moderation but I will say this anyways:
Forum mods, you guys need to tighten up your shit around here. You let far too many trolls go for way too long. This is not to say I am not guilty of any wrong doings myself. I have been issued many warnings when I really should have been banned after so many but so should the trolls you allow to be so prevelant.
Now back on thread topic. Why is Eves playerbase growing ?
Simple as this. CCP makes a great well crafted product (yes I said crafted because that is what Eve is). Eve is a niche market game that started low, really low in numbers so it could only go up. Any other MMO under the standard publishing deal would have folded and gone away for ever and no one today would even be here bitching or praising the game. Instead CCP survived after their original publisher left and has kept to their vision, not changing THEIR game design to the whim of the forum whiners.
The whiners and bashers all want to point out the flaws and things they really hate in a game. To them I say it's fine to not like the game. Eve is not perfect and is not trying to be something to everyone, Eve is simply trying to be the be the best game it can be for the niche market it is catering to. So what if games like WoW has 12 bajillion subscribers ? Quanity is not quality, just think McDonalds if you need to. It may not be your kind of game but you know what ? It's my type of game. After playing just about every damn game made in the last 30 years Eve is the only game I think about playing.
To all those who want another server, consentual risk free pvp and all other lame and idiotic game breaking ideas please just leave Eve alone. You all have your games that you want already, why do you feel that Eve needs to copy these other games so badly ? Eve would have folded long ago if they had tried to be like all those fantasy based class and loot determined games. Why do you think you keep seeing so many fail ?
Eve continues to grow and suceed because it is different and is of high quality which is always a profitable combo in business. Eves amazing growth is however offset by the fact it started so low to begin with but it has been consistently steady and I am glad I was there to see it from beta to now. I will be there for the next ten years or more to see what CCP brings to Eve next while all those other people are shelling out another 50$ for a rehashed sequel or expansion pack.
I know I left a long post but this is my final post here on these forums. And for those that think this is TL;DR, well that is why you will never "get" Eve.
That's pretty much it, Sal. You hit the nail on the head. While other games have tactic + manual skill involved in combat, EVE is more focused on tactic due 'automated' piloting. That is why it is more complex and tactical because that's all you have and you rely on.
Note: I simplified it a bit but the principle remains.
Yup in all those other games you click a mouse and press keys on a keyboard....The difference is truly mind boggling.
Then there's that thing were your mouse clicks and key pressing actually have an impact on the virtual world on multiple levels. The real reason EVE continues to keep and grow it's playerbase. Like to see jump elf or what ever it's called compete with that.
I'll make you a deal. If you quit posting here, so will I. All my posts are just about you calling people idiots for not enjoying Eve... So I'll promise right now not to post here again until you do.
-----Zero Punctuation Eve Online Review-----
Sinister motive?
No, it just looks like you are obsessed with eve and won't let it go.
People give you a hard time because there is wide agreement that your criticism of the game is largely based on fundamentally flawed ideas. That, and you INSIST on continuing to post here when it is clear you want to do nothing but complain.
Personally I've grown fond of your presence here and i hope you never leave. Almost every one of your posts is a source of at least some amusement.
I think we should make you the official eve forum court jester.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Lord, you can't leave!
All the plants are gonna die!
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I'd say it's closer to chess vs. whack-a-mole.
Edit- ALSO link me some posts where eve fans are bashing other games in their own forums. If they are doing this I'll be happy to call them out for the same childish behavior. I've never done it/ seen it myself.
If your reply here doesn't make the point of 'elitism' then no link or words will. Seriously, you are going to argue that no EVE fans ever post in other forums saying why they think EVE is better or just saying they think another game is lame? That is insane.
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If you can't figure out self-deprecating humor when you see it.. dunno what more I can do to help you out.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
For me Eve provides a level of complexity and challange that simply dose not exist in other games. I think that is why it continues to grow steadily, it just takes a certain kind of person to play Eve long term. It helps that the complexity of Eve branches into two areas instead of just one- making heaps of isk and second ruthlessly killing each other.
As for walking in stations it will remain a side segment of the game not heavily utilized until it is manipulated to facilitate one of the previously mentioned areas of the game. It will be much more interesting, complex and challenging when you and your gang can hang outside a door choke point waiting for someone to come walking through. At which time the smallest fastest member of your gang will throw himself at the person with reckless abandon hoping to get tackle and web on him. While that happens another member will spray the toon in the face with pepper spray so he cant target anyone. After that everyone else will jump on him with knives, stabbing the poor carebear repeatedly until they melt him and he dies. Then they will strip him of everything they can sell for isk including various organs and then run like crazy before Concord arrives or another gang lands on them. Ah...walking in stations Eve style...PvP and isk all rolled into one!
If you can't figure out self-deprecating humor when you see it.. dunno what more I can do to help you out.
Oh come on - you didn't say that in jest you where arguing that EVE players don't do that kind of thing.
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If you can't figure out self-deprecating humor when you see it.. dunno what more I can do to help you out.
LOL I got it strait from the start
Comparing EVE to Chess is just an insult to Chess. EVE is a frakin MMO meant for blowing things and drinkin beer IMHO. Not weak but not impressive try at a straw dog I would say. Probably would have worked in the WOW forums.