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Adjusting the balance of power: Japan needs a real military.
Timberwolf0
Member Posts: 424
If you've been paying attention to the news at all you know as well as I that the situation in the Korean peninsula is becoming extremely tense. North Korea has fired a missile they claimed was a satellite over Japanese airspace. They also reportedly have test fired a nuclear device. The latest development is the seizure of a couple of Chinese American reporters near their border who they have sentenced to 12 years in prison.
Diplomacy has been tried for decades with this rogue state, to no avail. They are only becoming more dangerous by the day as they develop more and more sophisticated nuclear devices and longer range missiles. China has not made any move to restrain North Korea, and it is my personal opinion that they prefer the situation as it is now because it is favorable to them.
North Korea right now is a larger threat than Saddam Hussein ever was. Unfortunately American military forces are already stretched too thin and the political climate too unstable to allow any sort of real policing.
Therefore it is my belief that Japan needs to step up to the international plate so to speak and develop a world class military to serve as a counterweight to North Korea. They could add a lot of stability to the region. Currently Japan has a moderate sized military known as the Japan Self Defense Force. Japan's military budget is restricted to only be 3% of the total Japanese budget. The military is hamstrung by many provisions and in fact no members of the SDF are actually considered soldiers. Their navy has no ships above destroyer class. There are also many restrictions on precisely how and when the forces may be deployed. Some might say this post belongs on a Japanese message board, but I feel that the threat to international stability poses a risk to everyone in range of North Korea's missiles. What are your thoughts?
JSDF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces#Military_branches
The article about the two reporters imprisoned:
Comments
I think it's Japan's decision on whether to expand their military force or not. Receiving diplomatic pressure to increase their military from the country that dropped two nuclear weapons on them would be highly inappropriate.
That's ancient history. The US and Japan are now very close allies, and to suggest that they should cease dialogue on this subject because of those events is ridiculous. Both countries coordinate defense at the highest levels. Unfortunately the US military is stretched thin right now, and I don't think in a worst case scenario we will be able to fully defend Japan. In this case it is in their own best interest to expand their military.
World War II is not ancient history. My father did not fight in it but he helped insure the airplanes used in the war were as safe as they could be. The actions of my father are not ancient history. They are recent history. Just because you or I did not experience it does not make it so. My grandfather also helped build those same aircraft. His actions are not ancient history either and he was born before 1900.
The Japanese can't raise a larger force. It's illegal. Japan has sworn an oath to not wage or go to war. They are only allowed to DEFEND themselves with a defense force.
Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution
The U.S. imposed this on Japan after WW2 and it has remained in effect ever since. The reason they can't is because of a legal binding agreement that has restricted them. They signed a treaty and this was built into their Constitution. Imagine trying to tell Americans to change the Constitution to take away guns. Good luck.
The yellow shows why they only have the small forces you described above. We Americans seem to think it's okay to change laws whenever it suits us for our benefit, but when they don't the laws are perfectly fine.
We imposed it on them. They obeyed. We ordered them to use troops in the 50s and when it was over, we told them to stand down. They obeyed. Now you are suggesting they raise a bigger army because we need help.
The United States just plays one big game of world ping-pong.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I agree with the OP and think if Japan wants an offensive capability, let them have one. We already sell them a ton of our military systems, so its win-win for both countries.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Japan doesn't need a strong or even significant military force. All they need is a robust nuclear deterent system of mutually assured destruction calibre. China will dump the the NK regime on it's head faster than you can say Il.
That's just it Baron.
They've had people try and declare Article 9 unconstitutional and their Supreme Courts struck that down. The courts there looked at their constitution written earlier (with American help) and declared it's still illegal for Japan to have offensive capability. The U.S. hasn't had a say in this since the 50s. If anyone in the country tried to start an offensive force, it would be like someone here taking away the guns and saying citizens no longer have the right to possess them.
Apparently, our gift of democracy to the Japanese people now bites us squarely in the ass, lol.
I already know how this very same thing will turn out in Iraq, since we pretty much wrote their constitution as well. Years from now we won't be able to do a thing when they get the right (or wrong) Muslim in there as president because their constitution we made would hold us powerless.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Cool Little Site.
If Japan Wants a big one, then Let them have it.
If they want Nukes Im sure we can sell them some Nice and Quick... God Knows we need the cash ;p
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
That's just it Baron.
They've had people try and declare Article 9 unconstitutional and their Supreme Courts struck that down. The courts there looked at their constitution written earlier (with American help) and declared it's still illegal for Japan to have offensive capability. The U.S. hasn't had a say in this since the 50s. If anyone in the country tried to start an offensive force, it would be like someone here taking away the guns and saying citizens no longer have the right to possess them.
Apparently, our gift of democracy to the Japanese people now bites us squarely in the ass, lol.
I already know how this very same thing will turn out in Iraq, since we pretty much wrote their constitution as well. Years from now we won't be able to do a thing when they get the right (or wrong) Muslim in there as president because their constitution we made would hold us powerless.
Their Constitution wasn't written by them with our help...we wrote it for them.
Times change and so will this. 10 years ago you couldn't hardly talk in Japan about getting an offensive capability, it was considered taboo and a political career killer. Now there are discussions all the time about it, even some calling for Japan to have a nuclear capability. If folks there deem it necessary to have it, they can always amend the consitution, but right now they just don't think that they need it because the US is providing their offensive arm. Why spend money during a recession when you have another country protecting you?
Move the US troops back to the states and I'm sure that Article 9 would go away very quickly.
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike"
Think its high time that Japan and Germany start their dormant military apparatus.
Shrug, let them do as they please. There needn't be any pressure from the outside, especially from the US.
I've worked with the Japanese a few times in Iraq. Was in a heavy ambush once, lasted about 15 minutes. A few thousand rounds and RPGs later, a few wounded also. Then some Japanese patrol pulled up next to us asking if there was still fighting, because they wanted to return fire as well.
Also worked with some South Koreans, intermingling during supply exchanges out in the middle of nowhere. Good stuff..
Japan already has a massive and technologically superior military dormant and hidden, waiting for the right time to strike. It's rumoured they have thousands of armored behemoths similar to mechs.
Trust me I know, I played Red Alert 2.
O_o o_O
Popinjay you make some good points, but I would say your comparison of the restriction to taking away the second amendment is quite a stretch. That amendment has been around since 1791 and has much tradition behind it. And yet it is still a topic of hot debate that comes up time and time again when some poor kid blows his head off with his father's unsecured firearm. It is often discussed and there have been attempts to change it.
Japan's constitution is not nearly so old, and it's new traditions not as set in stone. You don't need to quote chapter and verse of their constitution to me; I am fully cognizant of those restrictions. However, a constitution is a living document and must change to suit the needs of its populace. In the US, the constitution has undergone many changes and modifications to keep up with the changes in technology, international politics and culture. Could you imagine trying to apply the original constitution to modern life? Even the second amendment you point out is just that: an amendment.
It is not a stretch to believe that it could be changed, particularly when there is clear and present danger to the Japanese homeland. I would like to dispense with the faux scholarship and dive into the meat of the debate.
How far does the US' obligation to defend them go? At what point do we allow them to stand on their own? Granted immediately after WWII it was necessary to be their shield so their country could recover, but now they have the second largest GDP in the world (third if you count the EU combined as 1 country). It is time they step up.
I'm pretty sure they could be caught up to us on nuclear weapons in about 3 months. You seen the stuff they make over there?
If they focused their technological prowess on things other than robots and paper thin televisions I'm pretty sure they could do fine without our help.
I'm pretty sure they could do fine without our help right now. North Korea is in over it's head with all the threats they continue to make. Japan has few options when it comes to receiving missile fire..
When it comes to self-defense, Japan has a sizable and formidable Air Force. They boast approximately 400 aircraft, some 20 squadrons. Not big compared to the military supreme with the rest of the world, but it sure as hell beats North Korea's dismal force.
North Korea relies heavily on ground forces and whatever capabilities they have with missiles. Considering they live on an island, squared off against a formidable opponent.. they really are not much of a threat. The only issue is their missiles or transporting of dirty bombs via suitcase. Though it's unlikely they'll do this sort of thing, not really their style of warfare, though you never know.
Japan can certainly defend itself.
So can North Korea, being most of their assets are in defense. Though defense doesn't really mean much when you piss off literally the entire world. If North Korea really wants to fight, they'll try to provoke an attack onto their ground, as that is the only option they have. Hopefully they don't provoke via missile barrage.
It's up there now playing the Korean National Anthem.
The only part of Japan in danger from North Korea is Okinawa. Any time the U.S. wishes to stop "protecting" them, it can.
On of my students joined the Japanese Navy, but other than her I think there is anything but a public desire in Japan to engage with anything military. Quite the opposite, the mere mention of it sparks riots in parliament.
I really don't see America getting any help with North Korea from Japan. Australia and New Zealand would be your best bets.
Let Godzilla sort 'em out.
Not saying you are wrong on this one, but you are. You are right about the U.S. writing the majority of it as I've said earlier. But if there is any possibility of Japan ever mounting what could be considered an offensive force, you and I would probably be LONG dead by that time.
First, the country doesn't really want to do it, they are quite happy with their present force as a whole, with only the more socialist elements wishing for a robust military power. It citizens, unlike ours, are quite happy with their free, socialized everything and it allows them to do more socially for one another to improve their life quality.
A larger military only means considerably less benefits to the population as a whole, so the general thinking is its pretty stupid to have a military in the 21st century, especially one that they would have to pay for, lol. They don't even want nuclear weapons as a deterrent either so not sure what you think would ever happen to get them to want a military. That's like saying the Swiss people would want a larger military role as well.
The "some" calling for nukes and more military you mention is so small, it's not even worth mentioning.
Second, they have absolutely no incentive to do so, lol. The United States is their protector in respect to world conflicts. As a superpower, if anyone were to attack Japan, they know that the United States is contracted to respond. That keeps people from attacking them and allows them to have that small force token "defense" force. We have tons of troops stationed there and they would be attacked as well so by default, we'd automatically be involved.
Japan has no intent, desire or reason to change their constitution to allow a larger offensive force.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Pretty much... It's also not reasonable to create a standing army considering they reside on an island. (See North Korea; aside from the given fact 2 opposites share the same island.)
The United States exports war, Japan doesn't need nor want a large force. It would be totally unnecessary.. there are more than enough standing armies in this world. If every country decided to be a super-power.. well, we'd be back to square one.
Japan got Gundams under Mt. Fuji. I read this in Newsweek.
-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
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RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos
The Koreas are not an island.
I'm pretty sure they could be caught up to us on nuclear weapons in about 3 months. You seen the stuff they make over there?
If they focused their technological prowess on things other than robots and paper thin televisions I'm pretty sure they could do fine without our help.
yea in 10 years time japan will have a space fleet with Robotech like planes
Another great example of Moore's Law. Give people access to that much space (developers and users alike) and they'll find uses for it that you can never imagine. "640K ought to be enough for anybody" - Bill Gates 1981
The Koreas are not an island.
Yes, true. Bit of stupid this afternoon..
They don't have much options should they choose to do any sort of invasion. They may or may not attack SK, but I doubt it. They would just turtle up and fight a war of attrition, which they are currently already fighting, with deadly famines, and no electricity to speak of.. save for powering up their weapons.
China at the rear, SK to the front, everybody else looking in. I'm curious how China really feels about all this, as I can't find anything about them really speaking for NK or against them...
I expect they still prefer NK for a neighbour than the U.S. Army. I expect Russia still feels the same too.
And Godzilla will crush them all.
Nah, brah. They're building them now. See?
hahah I just saw that story about the Gundam and knew it would show up in this thread. Joking aside, I think Popinjay just ignored my reply so I'll just restate what I said before: constitutions are living documents that must change to keep up with modern developments, and thus the argument that the Japanese constitution can never be changed is absurd. Sure it's controversial, and in a recession it is attractive to them to not have to spend money on a military but the fact of the matter is that we too are in a deep recession and it is my belief in a worst case scenario the US cannot fully honor its defense commitments to Japan. I think it is important they understand this and realize despite the painful economic costs that it is in their own best interest.
Someone else noted this could lead to escalation, but that is a Neville Chamberlain style policy of appeasement. North Korea makes demands and always backs them up with threats of imminent military attacks if the West does not comply. They don't want to negotiate, they just want to weaken their neighbors as much as possible until they have an opportunity to strike. They do not hesitate to purge their own population to maintain control. They have repeatedly broken agreements made with them and have sought through every means to intimidate their neighbors. There is no predicting how far they might go, and it is for these reasons we need a counterweight in the region, and the country best capable of that in terms of economy, technology, and population is Japan.