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Cleric vs Bard (new player)
Cernan
Member UncommonPosts: 360
Greetings,
I'm currently trying out the trial with 2 friends. One is playing a figther and the other is still deciding. He played a Rogue last night, but I think he is looking at either a Paladin or Barbarian that is dps focused. I had originally thought I would play a Cleric for healing/buffing support. However, a Warchanter Bard looks like he may be a good compliment to a melee group as well.
Suggestions or thoughts? I'm fairly new to the D&D (DDO) world in general. My only previous experience is the original NWN from many moons ago.
Thanks for any input.
Comments
I'm not a bard person, so I can't give you any specific advice, but both classes are in demand, although clerics are the only fully functional healers in the game. As always, play what you like, and remember that you will probably wind up with several characters, so you can always have both.
make both, and play around in the begginner area with your friends for a few ranks (or until lvl 2) and see which one you like.
Bards are good for buffing more than healing, and cleric gets better healing (along with mass healing)
and tell your friend to go back to rogue, they get very useful at higher lvls (and fun)
Thanks for the replies. I'll probably play both for a bit. Although, I think I have almost settled on the cleric. I think in the long run it would be more useful to our three-man team. The one friend is enjoying the fighter, but the other said he felt useless on the rogue. He wanted to be primary dps with a little support. He didn't think he was doing enough dps, granted he was only level 1.
One other question. How soon does it take to start doing longer missions? Last night we only did the first 3 quests, and we just repeated them on more difficult settings. Are most of the early quests short missions with small maps?
First, the warrior should invest heavily in Intimidate. That is an AOE taunt. Combine it with a high AC and its almost like cheating. It will make your life as a healer a LOT better.
Second, a rogue is primary DPS. Their backstab multiplier is low starting out, but by level 6-7 the rogue will be the top damage dealer by a long shot. Make sure they take dual wield and combined with the intimidating tank, every swing gets the backstab bonus. You'll probably want someone to be a rogue for disabling and detecting traps. This is one of the few games where a rogue is just as essential as a healer or tank.
You'll definitely need a healer. The game may seem easy now, but in another few levels you'll be strugling to get from shrine to shrine. A cleric is the only viable healer.
The quests get longer after you finish the newbie island. Then they go up another notch once you finish the harbor area around level 4. You cannot leave until you have freed Arlos and gathered your party safely in this hallway! You'll "get it" by the time you finish the Waterworks.
What the other guy said, but also tell your friend to consider multiclassing his rogue; if he just wants the rogue skills (very important), he can take mostly wizard levels and nuke while he isn't disarming traps; if he wants to do more melee, anywhere from 2-14 ranger levels are good, with the breaks at 2, 6, 12, and 18 (after the expansion); other combos are possible!
You will get a longer mission before you leave korthos island, but the first real story arc quest you will run is STK, levels 3-5 and, IMO, one of the best quests in the game.
They are both pretty sweet. Clerics can be quite badass and are maybe a bit more straightforward.
A bard has enough healing for the most part to do well, in the end the amount of money you spend on consumables affects this question alot. Unfortunately wands are expected even for clerics.
Probably, in the end, a cleric is more powerful for both damage and healing. Blade Barrier is very powerful. But bards allow for some interesting more dex or charisma based buidls and give some interesting charm options and the buffs are great. Also there is UMD.
Also remember Warforged can be healed by Wizard and Sorcerors. So you have that option as well if you go for two warforged.
Just to clarifly, Bards are fine at healing. It will cost you some money, but you can be the main healer on most content, you will be a secondary healer on raids.
This is more true if you are playing with vets who have money and buy pots of everything. Bards as a healer for 3 new people playing together are not as effective as the main healer. Sure in the lower level stuff they should be ok, but since everything is new to them they are not going to know what is next or where the next fight is a bards limited SP is likely to be a problem for a group of all new players. Not to mention the limited healing spells they do have. WIth scrolls and wands they can get by, but new players are not going to have the money in game to support that type of play.
This is more true if you are playing with vets who have money and buy pots of everything. Bards as a healer for 3 new people playing together are not as effective as the main healer. Sure in the lower level stuff they should be ok, but since everything is new to them they are not going to know what is next or where the next fight is a bards limited SP is likely to be a problem for a group of all new players. Not to mention the limited healing spells they do have. WIth scrolls and wands they can get by, but new players are not going to have the money in game to support that type of play.
My 1st toon was a bard, 15 Bard 1 Fighter (boy do I regret that one - just start re-levelling a pure now). That character was absolutely fine as a healer, often the main healer through levels 1-16. The character offers decent, albeit expensive supplementary healing in the Shroud (I have never done it harder than normal).
I am in no way an 'elite' player. On average I do one instance a night. Bards are expensive, but I sell everything that I can on the AH, which enables my bard habit (that includes selling Mnemonics - so I don't have an advantage there).
You are right that it might be harder for a bard to function in a group of new players. I have played solely in PUGS, but obviously a lot of the players have been experienced. But then, in a static group abilties like fascinate would suddenly become very powerful.
Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that I have always been happy with my bard's healing. (I am not trying to argue a bard is as good as a cleric at healing, just that they can suffice).
Cheers
This is more true if you are playing with vets who have money and buy pots of everything. Bards as a healer for 3 new people playing together are not as effective as the main healer. Sure in the lower level stuff they should be ok, but since everything is new to them they are not going to know what is next or where the next fight is a bards limited SP is likely to be a problem for a group of all new players. Not to mention the limited healing spells they do have. WIth scrolls and wands they can get by, but new players are not going to have the money in game to support that type of play.
My 1st toon was a bard, 15 Bard 1 Fighter (boy do I regret that one - just start re-levelling a pure now). That character was absolutely fine as a healer, often the main healer through levels 1-16. The character offers decent, albeit expensive supplementary healing in the Shroud (I have never done it harder than normal).
I am in no way an 'elite' player. On average I do one instance a night. Bards are expensive, but I sell everything that I can on the AH, which enables my bard habit (that includes selling Mnemonics - so I don't have an advantage there).
You are right that it might be harder for a bard to function in a group of new players. I have played solely in PUGS, but obviously a lot of the players have been experienced. But then, in a static group abilties like fascinate would suddenly become very powerful.
Anyway, I guess what I am saying is that I have always been happy with my bard's healing. (I am not trying to argue a bard is as good as a cleric at healing, just that they can suffice).
Cheers
I agree a bard can be a good healer, but moreso in an experienced group IMO. The last char I capped was a barbarian I ran everything to the vale pretty much three man with another barbarian and a bard(warchanter) and we did fine on almost anything we played. But all three were players who have played since launch and had money for pots and all that stuff. So I agree it can be done, I just think as a brand new player today cleric might be the best choice if you plan to play with new friends only.
The other things a bard can do with buffs and CC can make up for any chortcoming they have in healing, but again knowing what spells to use in each situation makes it easier to play.
Yeah, bards can heal ok. I wouldn't plan on just the three of you doing the harder content, but you can do a lot of it. If the rogue takes UMD and can use wands, both the rogue and the bard can heal. This can be a big deal at lower levels where a wand of Cure Light Wounds can go a long way, especially between fights. That's when the most healing should be done anyway, (if possible), is after the fight is over. Higher level content can require Heal spells/scrolls. Plus, there's just something cool about a rogue using a wand of fireballs.
Remember, with some preparation or just plain solid gameplay, pretty much any group of players can do the majority of the quests. It's rare that a group NEEDS a certain class. Sometimes, of course, yeah.
Fights can be gone about many different ways, but, as much as I hate to say it, DPS rules in both DDO and 3.5 PnP. imo, the most powerful (but perhaps boring) group is five heavy-hitting melee and one bard to buff them up. That's not always true, but overall, they just steamroll over everything and then heal up between fights, and just keep going like the Energizer Bunny.
Like I say in PnP when spells are being resisted or the monsters are immune to things, "There's no defense against a two-hander and Power Attack!" :P
Yes, in all honesty, a cleric would be more valuable to this kind of group. I just don't believe it is the only 'healing optiion'.
Clerics are an awesome class, can be built to be melee dps, or a caster, in addition to being a healer, so don't feel pidgeon holed.
If you don't mind research, I suggest doing some reading of the class forums, but in saying that, the wealth of information can be bit daunting, so the 'prebuilt' class options might be the way to go (I have no idea how well Turbine made the various bard and cleric 'paths').