P2P MMOs going F2P

mcrippins · July 2009

Hello,

I have a geniune concern about MMO developers using a P2P model, and then after the launch and first few months fail or don't meet quota, they talk about or actually switch to an F2P model.

From my experience I have now purchased 2 video games @ ;$50-60 a piece, that have been converted from P2P to F2P. This leaves a sour taste in my mouth as I have now wasted over $100. Now with AOC considering the switch to F2P, I will then be out another $50. I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea to simply stop preordering games I enjoy, and simply wait out a few months to see if it fails and converts to a new business model. Anyone see the problem with this line of thinking? I really think this whole trend could really hurt P2P MMOs in the future. Because if noone is buying the initial game to get things off the ground, we could very easily lose some potentially great games.

I decided to post this mini-rant here to see what your opinions are on this. The games I purchased that switched to F2P models were TCOS & Fury.

Discuss...

bboneheadd · July 2009

Originally posted by afropuff420

Hello,

I have a geniune concern about MMO developers using a P2P model, and then after the launch and first few months fail or don't meet quota, they talk about or actually switch to an F2P model.

From my experience I have now purchased 2 video games @ ;$50-60 a piece, that have been converted from P2P to F2P. This leaves a sour taste in my mouth as I have now wasted over $100. Now with AOC considering the switch to F2P, I will then be out another $50. I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea to simply stop preordering games I enjoy, and simply wait out a few months to see if it fails and converts to a new business model. Anyone see the problem with this line of thinking? I really think this whole trend could really hurt P2P MMOs in the future. Because if noone is buying the initial game to get things off the ground, we could very easily lose some potentially great games.

I decided to post this mini-rant here to see what your opinions are on this. The games I purchased that switched to F2P models were TCOS & Fury.

Discuss...

AoC is not considering switching to f2p they said they are not ruling anything out.

Cephus404 · July 2009

How exactly are you out anything? You paid to play a game that charged at the time that you played. The fact that somewhere down the road they switch to a free game doesn't change the fact that, when you played, they were not free.

A little basic logic would be nice.

Inzra · July 2009

I spent extra money on AoC collectors edition, but I don't mind. The game is very good in many ways, yet I ended up quitting because of what I think is a major flaw withthe gameplay, the criminal system.

But I don't regret it, I look at it as support to a game I had faith in, and that was actually fun to play for me.

Anyway it was a lesson for me, I'm not sure I will preorder a game again, but it was nice for the experience.

if AoC goes F2P I might start to play it some on the side I guess. It's nice for RP Imo, although I think the PvP there more or less suck.

bobfish · July 2009

What two games?

DDO for example is going free to play on 6th August, at the moment is costs a massive $5 to buy it off the shelf or digitally online. So it is hardly a massive loss if you buy it and the next day it goes free to play, though for that $5 you do get VIP access for 30 days, rather than the pathetic free access which has no good content in it.

ArchLord went free to play a few months after it went live, but then ArchLord boxes are worth credits, so you aren't losing any money, you just convert the box credits and buy from the store. And all subscribers had their subscriptions coverted to credits, so they were rewarded for their subscription time, not like they lost anything.

Can't think of anything else that has gone free to play whilst there has been retail stock available.

mcrippins · July 2009

I think some people missed the point of this debate. For the person who requested logic.. I assure you, logic is all this post is about. My main concern is if this trend continues of P2P models failing and switching over to a F2P model.. who in their right mind would preorder and buy the box when it could very easily just fail and go to f2p.

Just as 1 person has already posted, they will probably not do another preorder. So let me ask you - Would you preorder a game, or go out and spend the $50-60 on a game if you knew that in a few months it would eventually go Free2Play?

Someone else in this thread mentioned that some companies compensate for their customers. This is a good idea imo. Unfortunately the 2 games I paid for were not compensated in any way. But it's good to see some companies doing the right thing.

Discuss...

EricDanie · July 2009

I think OP means what is the point of purchasing P2P games if they will eventually fall into F2P, as it is not the first time the OP faces this happening.

I personally don't care as long as I had enough fun with them. But nope, no serious gaming or money spending will come from me into a F2P MMO with virtual item sales.

TwiztedTD · July 2009

I understand where the OP is coming from, and i absolutly agree! It sucks paying for something and then 6 months down the road they make it free. What they could atleast do is if they switch to F2P, with a cash shop, give the original people who purchased the game, a credit for the cash shop.

mcrippins · July 2009

Originally posted by TwiztedTD

I understand where the OP is coming from, and i absolutly agree! It sucks paying for something and then 6 months down the road they make it free. What they could atleast do is if they switch to F2P, with a cash shop, give the original people who purchased the game, a credit for the cash shop.

I think this is the most sound idea i've heard yet.

CyberWiz · July 2009

Originally posted by afropuff420

Hello,

I have a geniune concern about MMO developers using a P2P model, and then after the launch and first few months fail or don't meet quota, they talk about or actually switch to an F2P model.

From my experience I have now purchased 2 video games @ ;$50-60 a piece, that have been converted from P2P to F2P. This leaves a sour taste in my mouth as I have now wasted over $100. Now with AOC considering the switch to F2P, I will then be out another $50. I'm starting to think that it might be a good idea to simply stop preordering games I enjoy, and simply wait out a few months to see if it fails and converts to a new business model. Anyone see the problem with this line of thinking? I really think this whole trend could really hurt P2P MMOs in the future. Because if noone is buying the initial game to get things off the ground, we could very easily lose some potentially great games.

I decided to post this mini-rant here to see what your opinions are on this. The games I purchased that switched to F2P models were TCOS & Fury.

Discuss...

I agree, it sucks, on the other hand, the games in question obviously do not perform well, so going F2P is probably only one of the many problems.

Going F2P usually also means putting the game on cruise control, the game is free, so there are no obligations to your customers. Which in turn means less reiteration and less new content.

It sucks almost as hard as when a developer pulls an NGE, almost ...

Sovrath · July 2009

Originally posted by afropuff420

I think some people missed the point of this debate. For the person who requested logic.. I assure you, logic is all this post is about. My main concern is if this trend continues of P2P models failing and switching over to a F2P model.. who in their right mind would preorder and buy the box when it could very easily just fail and go to f2p.

Just as 1 person has already posted, they will probably not do another preorder. So let me ask you - Would you preorder a game, or go out and spend the $50-60 on a game if you knew that in a few months it would eventually go Free2Play?

Someone else in this thread mentioned that some companies compensate for their customers. This is a good idea imo. Unfortunately the 2 games I paid for were not compensated in any way. But it's good to see some companies doing the right thing.

Discuss...

You are making an assumption that the only ways for these games to be are either pay to play and then pay the monthly fee or free to play which is a free download and you use the in game shop.

There is absolutely no reason a game couldn't be "pay for the box and then don't pay a sub and just use the shop".

Also, in some cases you are saving money if you refuse to use any shop items. You then just paid for the box and don't have to pay for the sub.

In addition, if you like the game a lot, want to continue to play but the game is not bringing in the money it could be then going free to play will give the game new life. I can't say that you won't get a lot of little kids or anything but then again there are a lot of annoying people who pay to play so it's six of one/half dozen of the other.

And to answer your question "yes, I would preorder a game even if it had the possibility to go free to play". Because, again, that assumes that free to play means that it is a free download. Also, the preorder gets me in the game sooner, might get me some perks and at the very least gives me a hard copy of the game so I don't have to worry about reformatting my computer and downloading everything again.

To give you a little bit of a life lesson (and sorry if that seems presumptive) the idea behind cable was that there would be no commericials and that you would pay your fee and just get movies. NOW discuss!

CyberWiz · July 2009

Originally posted by Cephus404

How exactly are you out anything? You paid to play a game that charged at the time that you played. The fact that somewhere down the road they switch to a free game doesn't change the fact that, when you played, they were not free.
A little basic logic would be nice.

The logic is one invests time and money in an mmo, then the model and gameplay drastically change. People may feel cheated because of that.

I know I would.

That is one of the reasons why I keep returning to EVE Online I guess, it is pretty reliable in terms of not screwing over veterans and keeping a healthy vision for the future. I can be reasonable sure that the game will last at least another 3 years and that it will be P2P.

CyberWiz · July 2009

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by afropuff420

I think some people missed the point of this debate. For the person who requested logic.. I assure you, logic is all this post is about. My main concern is if this trend continues of P2P models failing and switching over to a F2P model.. who in their right mind would preorder and buy the box when it could very easily just fail and go to f2p.

Just as 1 person has already posted, they will probably not do another preorder. So let me ask you - Would you preorder a game, or go out and spend the $50-60 on a game if you knew that in a few months it would eventually go Free2Play?

Someone else in this thread mentioned that some companies compensate for their customers. This is a good idea imo. Unfortunately the 2 games I paid for were not compensated in any way. But it's good to see some companies doing the right thing.

Discuss...

You are making an assumption that the only ways for these games to be are either pay to play and then pay the monthly fee or free to play which is a free download and you use the in game shop.

There is absolutely no reason a game couldn't be "pay for the box and then don't pay a sub and just use the shop".

Also, in some cases you are saving money if you refuse to use any shop items. You then just paid for the box and don't have to pay for the sub.

In addition, if you like the game a lot, want to continue to play but the game is not bringing in the money it could be then going free to play will give the game new life. I can't say that you won't get a lot of little kids or anything but then again there are a lot of annoying people who pay to play so it's six of one/half dozen of the other.

And to answer your question "yes, I would preorder a game even if it had the possibility to go free to play". Because, again, that assumes that free to play means that it is a free download. Also, the preorder gets me in the game sooner, might get me some perks and at the very least gives me a hard copy of the game so I don't have to worry about reformatting my computer and downloading everything again.

If it is advertised as buy the box, then after that cash shop, then fine, I know that, so I won't buy the game, won't invest time and money in it.

If it is sold as buy the box and P2P, then after a couple of months of invested time and money, they change the game to F2P, which also means a change in gameplay as they need a cash shop now, then I would feel cheated.

Luckely I have had none such exeperience.

Sovrath · July 2009

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Cephus404

How exactly are you out anything? You paid to play a game that charged at the time that you played. The fact that somewhere down the road they switch to a free game doesn't change the fact that, when you played, they were not free.
A little basic logic would be nice.

The logic is one invests time and money in an mmo, then the model and gameplay drastically change. People may feel cheated because of that.

I know I would.

That is one of the reasons why I keep returning to EVE Online I guess, it is pretty reliable in terms of not screwing over veterans and keeping a healthy vision for the future. I can be reasonable sure that the game will last at least another 3 years and that it will be P2P.

But again, one can realize that regardless of the time put in, the game isn't making money and the game comapany feels that the only way to continue the game is with a shop. I understand that people have strong feelings about shops but if the game can't exist without it then you either get the game taken away or just put up with a shop.

But that's a whole other discussion which of course has been discussed.

Sovrath · July 2009

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by afropuff420

I think some people missed the point of this debate. For the person who requested logic.. I assure you, logic is all this post is about. My main concern is if this trend continues of P2P models failing and switching over to a F2P model.. who in their right mind would preorder and buy the box when it could very easily just fail and go to f2p.

Just as 1 person has already posted, they will probably not do another preorder. So let me ask you - Would you preorder a game, or go out and spend the $50-60 on a game if you knew that in a few months it would eventually go Free2Play?

Someone else in this thread mentioned that some companies compensate for their customers. This is a good idea imo. Unfortunately the 2 games I paid for were not compensated in any way. But it's good to see some companies doing the right thing.

Discuss...

You are making an assumption that the only ways for these games to be are either pay to play and then pay the monthly fee or free to play which is a free download and you use the in game shop.

There is absolutely no reason a game couldn't be "pay for the box and then don't pay a sub and just use the shop".

Also, in some cases you are saving money if you refuse to use any shop items. You then just paid for the box and don't have to pay for the sub.

In addition, if you like the game a lot, want to continue to play but the game is not bringing in the money it could be then going free to play will give the game new life. I can't say that you won't get a lot of little kids or anything but then again there are a lot of annoying people who pay to play so it's six of one/half dozen of the other.

And to answer your question "yes, I would preorder a game even if it had the possibility to go free to play". Because, again, that assumes that free to play means that it is a free download. Also, the preorder gets me in the game sooner, might get me some perks and at the very least gives me a hard copy of the game so I don't have to worry about reformatting my computer and downloading everything again.

If it is advertised as buy the box, then after that cash shop, then fine, I know that, so I won't buy the game, won't invest time and money in it.

If it is sold as buy the box and P2P, then after a couple of months of invested time and money, they change the game to F2P, which also means a change in gameplay as they need a cash shop now, then I would feel cheated.

Luckely I have had none such exeperience.

The only thought i have on that is that the terms of agreement usually has a fine print that states that the game company reserves the right to change the terms at any time they'd like.

See my cable example. Things don't always stay the same.

CyberWiz · July 2009

I guess that people who like F2P don't have problems with these changes.

Therefore it is hard to debate, because said people don't see the problem.

IMHO once an MMORPG is released, it should be about evotuton, an MMORPG is allowed to change, but with support of the playerbase and in small steps.

Revolutions like CU, NGE, New Frontiers, P2P to F2P should be avoided.

CyberWiz · July 2009

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by afropuff420

I think some people missed the point of this debate. For the person who requested logic.. I assure you, logic is all this post is about. My main concern is if this trend continues of P2P models failing and switching over to a F2P model.. who in their right mind would preorder and buy the box when it could very easily just fail and go to f2p.

Just as 1 person has already posted, they will probably not do another preorder. So let me ask you - Would you preorder a game, or go out and spend the $50-60 on a game if you knew that in a few months it would eventually go Free2Play?

Someone else in this thread mentioned that some companies compensate for their customers. This is a good idea imo. Unfortunately the 2 games I paid for were not compensated in any way. But it's good to see some companies doing the right thing.

Discuss...

You are making an assumption that the only ways for these games to be are either pay to play and then pay the monthly fee or free to play which is a free download and you use the in game shop.

There is absolutely no reason a game couldn't be "pay for the box and then don't pay a sub and just use the shop".

Also, in some cases you are saving money if you refuse to use any shop items. You then just paid for the box and don't have to pay for the sub.

In addition, if you like the game a lot, want to continue to play but the game is not bringing in the money it could be then going free to play will give the game new life. I can't say that you won't get a lot of little kids or anything but then again there are a lot of annoying people who pay to play so it's six of one/half dozen of the other.

And to answer your question "yes, I would preorder a game even if it had the possibility to go free to play". Because, again, that assumes that free to play means that it is a free download. Also, the preorder gets me in the game sooner, might get me some perks and at the very least gives me a hard copy of the game so I don't have to worry about reformatting my computer and downloading everything again.

If it is advertised as buy the box, then after that cash shop, then fine, I know that, so I won't buy the game, won't invest time and money in it.

If it is sold as buy the box and P2P, then after a couple of months of invested time and money, they change the game to F2P, which also means a change in gameplay as they need a cash shop now, then I would feel cheated.

Luckely I have had none such exeperience.

The only thought i have on that is that the terms of agreement usually has a fine print that states that the game company reserves the right to change the terms at any time they'd like.

See my cable example. Things don't always stay the same.

I understand, it does not mean I have to like it ... right?

Sovrath · July 2009

Originally posted by CyberWiz

I guess that people who like F2P don't have problems with these changes.
Therefore it is hard to debate, because said people don't see the problem.
IMHO once an MMORPG is released, it should be about evotuton, an MMORPG is allowed to change, but with support of the playerbase and in small steps.
Revolutions like CU, NGE, New Frontiers, P2P to F2P should be avoided.

I think there is a difference between the NGE and changing the pay model. But then again, it's not a vast difference if the free to play model mitigates certain achievments in the game.

So let's look at one such game. DDO.

DDO is still a pay to play game. It added a free to play option. From what it looks like, a player who is pay to play still gets everything and more of what the game has to offer. The free to play player needs to do a bit of a la carte purchasing to get the game they want.

AoC is not free to play yet so you would need to see the business model.

My thought is that if you paid for the box and the next month the game was offered for free download then YES you should get that money back or some sort of in game coins for your troubles.

If you like a game but the only way it can stay around is to change the business model then I can't see why it would be an issue. Free to play doesn't have to mean by items and characters. It could just be things like rez scrolls or xp % scrolls, etc.

Sovrath · July 2009

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by afropuff420

I think some people missed the point of this debate. For the person who requested logic.. I assure you, logic is all this post is about. My main concern is if this trend continues of P2P models failing and switching over to a F2P model.. who in their right mind would preorder and buy the box when it could very easily just fail and go to f2p.

Just as 1 person has already posted, they will probably not do another preorder. So let me ask you - Would you preorder a game, or go out and spend the $50-60 on a game if you knew that in a few months it would eventually go Free2Play?

Someone else in this thread mentioned that some companies compensate for their customers. This is a good idea imo. Unfortunately the 2 games I paid for were not compensated in any way. But it's good to see some companies doing the right thing.

Discuss...

You are making an assumption that the only ways for these games to be are either pay to play and then pay the monthly fee or free to play which is a free download and you use the in game shop.

There is absolutely no reason a game couldn't be "pay for the box and then don't pay a sub and just use the shop".

Also, in some cases you are saving money if you refuse to use any shop items. You then just paid for the box and don't have to pay for the sub.

In addition, if you like the game a lot, want to continue to play but the game is not bringing in the money it could be then going free to play will give the game new life. I can't say that you won't get a lot of little kids or anything but then again there are a lot of annoying people who pay to play so it's six of one/half dozen of the other.

And to answer your question "yes, I would preorder a game even if it had the possibility to go free to play". Because, again, that assumes that free to play means that it is a free download. Also, the preorder gets me in the game sooner, might get me some perks and at the very least gives me a hard copy of the game so I don't have to worry about reformatting my computer and downloading everything again.

If it is advertised as buy the box, then after that cash shop, then fine, I know that, so I won't buy the game, won't invest time and money in it.

If it is sold as buy the box and P2P, then after a couple of months of invested time and money, they change the game to F2P, which also means a change in gameplay as they need a cash shop now, then I would feel cheated.

Luckely I have had none such exeperience.

The only thought i have on that is that the terms of agreement usually has a fine print that states that the game company reserves the right to change the terms at any time they'd like.

See my cable example. Things don't always stay the same.

I understand, it does not mean I have to like it ... right?

like it? heck no. If you believe there is an injustice then rage against the machine my brother!

mcrippins · July 2009

You are making an assumption that the only ways for these games to be are either pay to play and then pay the monthly fee or free to play which is a free download and you use the in game shop.
There is absolutely no reason a game couldn't be "pay for the box and then don't pay a sub and just use the shop".
Also, in some cases you are saving money if you refuse to use any shop items. You then just paid for the box and don't have to pay for the sub.
In addition, if you like the game a lot, want to continue to play but the game is not bringing in the money it could be then going free to play will give the game new life. I can't say that you won't get a lot of little kids or anything but then again there are a lot of annoying people who pay to play so it's six of one/half dozen of the other.
And to answer your question "yes, I would preorder a game even if it had the possibility to go free to play". Because, again, that assumes that free to play means that it is a free download. Also, the preorder gets me in the game sooner, might get me some perks and at the very least gives me a hard copy of the game so I don't have to worry about reformatting my computer and downloading everything again.
To give you a little bit of a life lesson (and sorry if that seems presumptive) the idea behind cable was that there would be no commericials and that you would pay your fee and just get movies. NOW discuss!

An interesting point you bring up here. It is true there are other business models to look at. One game I mentioned earlier was Fury. Fury was exactly like you pointed out. By that I mean you only had to purchase the box, and there was no monthly fee. Fairly soon after its release, it was converted to F2P, and no box purchase was necessary. Also, no compensation was given for people who actually purchased the game. Now, this maybe only a portion of why the game failed as it did.. Nonetheless, enough people wasted their money and time.

To be honest with you, i'm still on the fence with preordering. Partially the reason I summoned this debate to begin with. There are a few games out there I am beta testing that have really been a lot of fun. But when you have a game like WoW on the market, in my opinion, no game is truly safe from this issue.

In regards to cash shops. I have actually played a plethora of F2P titles lately, and I must say they are getting better. I really don't mind cash shops in the least as long as the gameplay is good. I think Atlantica Online is a great example of this. Runes of magic as well. For free games, they are pretty stellar. However, when it all comes down to it, I will typically put my trust into a P2P business model for the following reasons.

1. A P2P model will typically cement balance into a game. (i.e. Joe the Rich guy can't freely purchase advantages inside the game, and niether can poor bob.)

2. A P2P model is more likely to have regular content updates upon the factor of success.

I guess the way im looking at the P2P success rate is as follows:

You have WoW who is basically the Windows of the (P2P) world. Competing against Linux..(smaller P2Ps such as aoc/warhammer) which is definitely nowhere near as popular for the typical end user. Then occassionally you find a game like EvE which is like a diamond in the rough. (or a Mac if you will). Where it has a solid playerbase, that will typically not sway from their game. Now I am not an EvE player. I've given it plenty of opportunities, and it's just not for me. But I will say this.. EvE players are (imo) the most hard core gamers I have seen in a long time. They are dedicated gamers for sure, and will keep that game alive for as long as possible. So what is it really going to take to have another successful P2P MMO?

-end of rant-

Cephus404 · July 2009

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Cephus404

How exactly are you out anything? You paid to play a game that charged at the time that you played. The fact that somewhere down the road they switch to a free game doesn't change the fact that, when you played, they were not free.
A little basic logic would be nice.

The logic is one invests time and money in an mmo, then the model and gameplay drastically change. People may feel cheated because of that.

I know I would.

That is one of the reasons why I keep returning to EVE Online I guess, it is pretty reliable in terms of not screwing over veterans and keeping a healthy vision for the future. I can be reasonable sure that the game will last at least another 3 years and that it will be P2P.

I certainly wouldn't, I am paying to play the game at the time I play it. I have no control over what happens tomorrow. If they go F2P or they put in a new upgrade that screws up the game, I can choose to stop paying or I can continue. I'm not going to feel cheated because I have no expectation that everything will always go the way I want it to.

mcrippins · July 2009

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by CyberWiz

Originally posted by Cephus404

How exactly are you out anything? You paid to play a game that charged at the time that you played. The fact that somewhere down the road they switch to a free game doesn't change the fact that, when you played, they were not free.
A little basic logic would be nice.

The logic is one invests time and money in an mmo, then the model and gameplay drastically change. People may feel cheated because of that.

I know I would.

That is one of the reasons why I keep returning to EVE Online I guess, it is pretty reliable in terms of not screwing over veterans and keeping a healthy vision for the future. I can be reasonable sure that the game will last at least another 3 years and that it will be P2P.

I certainly wouldn't, I am paying to play the game at the time I play it. I have no control over what happens tomorrow. If they go F2P or they put in a new upgrade that screws up the game, I can choose to stop paying or I can continue. I'm not going to feel cheated because I have no expectation that everything will always go the way I want it to.

Interesting Logic here.. So let's say one day you go down to a dealership, and you decide to purchase a car. You find the car you like, and you take it home. As satisfied as can be, the next day you find yourself sitting in front of your TV. A commercial comes on for the same dealership you just purchased a car from. They are giving the exact same car that you just purchased away for free. Might you then feel cheated?

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P2P MMOs going F2P

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P2P MMOs going F2P

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