Guess its going to boil down to how skilled a person is at playing the class. If they suck at playing , they deserve to be a mediocre jedi. Likewise with any other class, they need to make a name for themselves. People can't expect Bioware to just hand them fame and fortune. I mean I get the point of most jedi are better than the average joe shmoe of w/e class, but everyone deserves the tools to achieve greatness with any class they choose. Otherwise what would you have? Complete support roles of all the other classes?
This is the best reply I've heard here. I would suppose it could depend on the player to become a Jedi Master instead of just having it given to them.
But really, if they want to stick to the concept of Jedi they should make them at least slightly more powerful than other classes.
slightly more powerful? really? thats the worst suggestion you can ever give.
Ok, so let's hear your opinions/suggestions on the subject instead of trolls.
Guess its going to boil down to how skilled a person is at playing the class. If they suck at playing , they deserve to be a mediocre jedi. Likewise with any other class, they need to make a name for themselves. People can't expect Bioware to just hand them fame and fortune. I mean I get the point of most jedi are better than the average joe shmoe of w/e class, but everyone deserves the tools to achieve greatness with any class they choose. Otherwise what would you have? Complete support roles of all the other classes?
This is the best reply I've heard here. I would suppose it could depend on the player to become a Jedi Master instead of just having it given to them.
But really, if they want to stick to the concept of Jedi they should make them at least slightly more powerful than other classes.
slightly more powerful? really? thats the worst suggestion you can ever give.
Ok, so let's hear your opinions/suggestions on the subject instead of trolls.
all you are doing is trolling. everytime someone says something, you change your tune.
Guess its going to boil down to how skilled a person is at playing the class. If they suck at playing , they deserve to be a mediocre jedi. Likewise with any other class, they need to make a name for themselves. People can't expect Bioware to just hand them fame and fortune. I mean I get the point of most jedi are better than the average joe shmoe of w/e class, but everyone deserves the tools to achieve greatness with any class they choose. Otherwise what would you have? Complete support roles of all the other classes?
This is the best reply I've heard here. I would suppose it could depend on the player to become a Jedi Master instead of just having it given to them.
But really, if they want to stick to the concept of Jedi they should make them at least slightly more powerful than other classes.
Quoted myself, have some more to add on these lines.
Another thing I thought of is that if you actually wanted to be like a Jedi Master without any in-game stats/powers doing it for you, you'd pretty much have to be a Jedi in real life, to kill like 10 guys at once with equal in game classes.
I don't know about you guys, but I'm not a Jedi let alone a Jedi Master in real life.(and no, you're not.)
So, I think that's another good reason why the Jedi class should be more powerful than average, Jo Bob smuggler.
You all seem to be completely forgetting that I said it should come with penalties too, so they don't just go around dominating non-stop.
Originally posted by jusomdudeYa sure, a Jedi got killed in a few shots... Do we know if that Jedi was a Padawan, Knight, Master? Btw, it would be much appreciated if snide blind fanboy remarks were left out.
It was Coleman Trebor, a jedi master and council member.
So lets say that Jedi should be more powerful than other classes....
We have a server with 500k players and guess what? 490k of them are Jedi....
When it comes to Online games you HAVE to have balance. Lets take LoTRO for example. Lore Masters were rare and extremely powerful in the books (even the movies to a lesser extent) but in the game they are not. Why is this? BALANCE.
Remember OP... The word for the day is BALANCE... B-A-L-A-N-C-E
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"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
Something people are forgetting. Whether it's because some of you are young, just never don't really have much experience in the origin of MMORPGS.
MMORPGS came from PnP RPGs. The whole point of it is that you ARE the hero. You ARE the elite omg badass. You ARE Mace Windu, you ARE Jango/Bobba Fett, you ARE Luke Skywalker.
You ARE the hero/villain of this story. That was the point. That's one of the biggest complaints (not from gamers themselves, but PnP players and some developers that I've watched on TechTV and read about.) The complaint that people are losing that feeling of being the hero/villain because so schmo ragtag can kill them.
But that's beside the point. You are the hero/villain. You should be able to kill them.
Originally posted by jusomdudeYa sure, a Jedi got killed in a few shots... Do we know if that Jedi was a Padawan, Knight, Master? Btw, it would be much appreciated if snide blind fanboy remarks were left out.
It was Coleman Trebor, a jedi master and council member.
So lets say that Jedi should be more powerful than other classes....
We have a server with 500k players and guess what? 490k of them are Jedi....
When it comes to Online games you HAVE to have balance. Lets take LoTRO for example. Lore Masters were rare and extremely powerful in the books (even the movies to a lesser extent) but in the game they are not. Why is this? BALANCE.
Remember OP... The word for the day is BALANCE... B-A-L-A-N-C-E
I could see everyone being a Jedi if they didn't have penalties, although if you didn't see, in my OP I suggested that they do.
And if you think Bioware who are just stepping up to the MMO plate will have perfect balance, you're thinking nothing short of a pipe dream.
No game has perfect balance. But all good mmo's do have balance between classes. I do expect Bioware to get the balance right, it matters not if they have published an mmo before. With the sheer amount of contacts and experience within the business they better not make rookie studio mistakes. Unless you happened to forget... Bioware is not a rookie studio by any means. It vould be Bethesda doing an Elderscrolls MMO and I would expect a quality product (yes.. including class balance).
But I digress... I did misread that section of your inital post and I apolgize, but even with enhanced penalties for death or whatever, you have to look at the balance ability within PvP. Really this whole thread is irrelavent until we know for sure how the PvP will be (1v1, group v group, etc...).
- Case: Thermaltake Kandalf Black Chassis - CPU: AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition 3.2GHz (OC'd 4.2GHz on Water Cooling) - Memory: Mushkin 8Gb (4x 2Gb) DDR3 1600Mhz - HDD: Dual Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 7200 RPM - GFX: (2) XFX Radeon HD 5870 in CrossFire - New upgrade!
"I like wow, I like aion and I like AoC all for different reasons.....the later cause i get to see boobs, but still its a reason!!" - Sawlstone
No game has perfect balance. But all good mmo's do have balance between classes. I do expect Bioware to get the balance right, it matters not if they have published an mmo before. With the sheer amount of contacts and experience within the business they better not make rookie studio mistakes. Unless you happened to forget... Bioware is not a rookie studio by any means. It vould be Bethesda doing an Elderscrolls MMO and I would expect a quality product (yes.. including class balance). But I digress... I did misread that section of your inital post and I apolgize, but even with enhanced penalties for death or whatever, you have to look at the balance ability within PvP. Really this whole thread is irrelavent until we know for sure how the PvP will be (1v1, group v group, etc...).
I'm aware of Bioware's track record, although if other game companies who they will be taking advice from can't get balancing right, then it doesn't give me a good feeling.
I'm not sure what you mean by it being irrelavent, since even if it were based around group combat, that's saying Jedi would most likely be even weaker. And if it were 1v1, well, then they would still just be equal.
What games do you think have good balance? None that I have played really stand out.
Okay why do Jedi or even Sith have to be more powerful than the other heroes in the Starwars universe. They are "overt" force users, but in A New Hope, Obi Wan explaines that the Force "is an energy field created by all living things" Jedi and Sith are trained to use and see the Force in specific ways; but those aren't the only ways it can manifest itself. Is Han Solo defying the odds and navigating an asteroid field Skill, luck or just his untrained and subconcious use of the same powers Luke uses. It is the innate power of the force harnessed by an elite smuggler/Bounty hunter that makes them superior too a Padawan and the equal of a Jedi knight or Sith
Okay why do Jedi or even Sith have to be more powerful than the other heroes in the Starwars universe. They are "overt" force users, but in A New Hope, Obi Wan explaines that the Force "is an energy field created by all living things" Jedi and Sith are trained to use and see the Force in specific ways; but those aren't the only ways it can manifest itself. Is Han Solo defying the odds and navigating an asteroid field Skill, luck or just his untrained and subconcious use of the same powers Luke uses. It is the innate power of the force harnessed by an elite smuggler/Bounty hunter that makes them superior too a Padawan and the equal of a Jedi knight or Sith
From what you're saying it sounds like asking why shouldn't someone who drives a car be able to fly a plane without any training. Sure they might have a chance of doing a few things right, but it's gonna be mostly an all out fail.
OP is the perfect example of what kind of nerd kids are going tp play Jedi. OMFGJEDIPWN players are the reason why Jedi class is always such a controversy in Star Wars MMO.
Okay why do Jedi or even Sith have to be more powerful than the other heroes in the Starwars universe. They are "overt" force users, but in A New Hope, Obi Wan explaines that the Force "is an energy field created by all living things" Jedi and Sith are trained to use and see the Force in specific ways; but those aren't the only ways it can manifest itself. Is Han Solo defying the odds and navigating an asteroid field Skill, luck or just his untrained and subconcious use of the same powers Luke uses. It is the innate power of the force harnessed by an elite smuggler/Bounty hunter that makes them superior too a Padawan and the equal of a Jedi knight or Sith
From what you're saying it sounds like asking why shouldn't someone who drives a car be able to fly a plane without any training. Sure they might have a chance of doing a few things right, but it's gonna be mostly an all out fail.
That's not what I'm saying at all so I'll make it a sports analogy.
let's say you take a guy with immense atheletic ability (strong in the Force) and train him from a young age at football. he's going to be a superstar', Peyton Manning, Walter payton etc. Luke Skywalker/Emperor Palpatine Jedi/Sith master
Athlete 2 is an average athlete (force user) trained from a young age at football, this would be your average NFL player. Jedi Padawan/Knight
Athelete 3 is the guy you read about who are track stars or other athletes (strong in the force for the purpose of this analogy) who don't play football until college but are standouts because of their natural athletic ability. Han Solo/Boba Fett types.
Athlete 2 and 3 balance innate talent with training to get to the same place through different paths
See the training and the talent combined make you a master, and there can only be a very small few of those and in no way should they be playable in an MMO. There's nothing to say that the other 'heroic' characters in the saga weren't accessing the Force in both unknown and subconcious ways thereby making them superior in skill or luck to the common person, and on par with a Jedi.
This is what I interpret when I hear that all classes are going to be equally balanced. If Bioware even tries to tell me through story that I'm a Jedi Master or something, but I'm equal to all other classes, I'm going to burst out laughing. I guess I'm just going to have to take it that I will be playing a padawan with no chance of making Knight and beyond, no matter what they tell me. It would make more sense this way, because then, I could actually believe that other classes stand an equal chance against me. Sure, I'll probably get Knight like powers while leveling, but as long as other classes get equally strong powers, it's spit in the face to the whole concept of Jedi. I will in no way, shape, or form, ever believe that pistol totin Joe Bob smuggler even stands a remote chance against even a Jedi Knight, let alone Master, no matter how much elite training or experience they have.
I think there are ways to implement alpha classes if they actually put some effort into balancing them out other ways, such as, long periods of half force power/health after death, or maybe each time you die you lose the ability to use a few powers for each death for a moderate amount of time. BTW, before anyone comes in here saying "This isn't SWG!!!" I know that, but it is Star Wars.
To me, having anything but a padawan equal to other classes is the equivalent of taking a family size dook square on top of the Star Wars IP.
Woah now, not true.
Anyone remember the fight of a lifetime that Jango (a bounty hunter) gave Master Kenobi? How about the fight that Boba put up to Luke Skywalker? Not to mention the number of Knights slain in wars against droids and living beings (Clone Wars? The Jedi fought with the Clones, yes, but quite a few were taken out my droids.) Frankly, if a droid can take out a Knight or Master, a human definitely can.
Those, were just off the top of my head from the movies and shows. This isn't even bringing up the many times it has happened in the Expanded Universe.
Your arguement is very flawed and hollow.
____________________________ Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online --- == RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP == --- Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online --- Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth ____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
This is what I interpret when I hear that all classes are going to be equally balanced. If Bioware even tries to tell me through story that I'm a Jedi Master or something, but I'm equal to all other classes, I'm going to burst out laughing. I guess I'm just going to have to take it that I will be playing a padawan with no chance of making Knight and beyond, no matter what they tell me. It would make more sense this way, because then, I could actually believe that other classes stand an equal chance against me. Sure, I'll probably get Knight like powers while leveling, but as long as other classes get equally strong powers, it's spit in the face to the whole concept of Jedi. I will in no way, shape, or form, ever believe that pistol totin Joe Bob smuggler even stands a remote chance against even a Jedi Knight, let alone Master, no matter how much elite training or experience they have.
I think there are ways to implement alpha classes if they actually put some effort into balancing them out other ways, such as, long periods of half force power/health after death, or maybe each time you die you lose the ability to use a few powers for each death for a moderate amount of time. BTW, before anyone comes in here saying "This isn't SWG!!!" I know that, but it is Star Wars.
To me, having anything but a padawan equal to other classes is the equivalent of taking a family size dook square on top of the Star Wars IP.
Woah now, not true.
Anyone remember the fight of a lifetime that Jango (a bounty hunter) gave Master Kenobi? How about the fight that Boba put up to Luke Skywalker? Not to mention the number of Knights slain in wars against droids and living beings (Clone Wars? The Jedi fought with the Clones, yes, but quite a few were taken out my droids.) Frankly, if a droid can take out a Knight or Master, a human definitely can.
Those, were just off the top of my head from the movies and shows. This isn't even bringing up the many times it has happened in the Expanded Universe.
Your arguement is very flawed and hollow.
From your post, I can see that you didn't read the whole thread before posting.
One point of Jedi vs BH is that BHs mainly rely on their trinkets to be effective.
Another point is, all those who actually put up a fight against Jedi are above average, or the absolute elite, themselves.
And to me your droid argument is flawed seeing how advanced AI could easily do things better than any average human.
By all means, everyone continue to say Jedi are just random schmoes, able to be easily taken care of by anyone with training in their respective fields.
I'm done here, apparently the most legendary warriors in the Star Wars universe are cannon fodder according to the majority of Star Wars fans.
Um, not to mention Order Sixty Six (Great Jedi Purge) in which Clone troopers pretty much murdered every jedi except Yoda, Obi Wan and nameless others.
Um, not to mention Order Sixty Six (Great Jedi Purge) in which Clone troopers pretty much murdered every jedi except Yoda, Obi Wan and nameless others.
Another thing I thought of is that if you actually wanted to be like a Jedi Master without any in-game stats/powers doing it for you, you'd pretty much have to be a Jedi in real life, to kill like 10 guys at once with equal in game classes. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not a Jedi let alone a Jedi Master in real life.(and no, you're not.) So, I think that's another good reason why the Jedi class should be more powerful than average, Jo Bob smuggler.
You all seem to be completely forgetting that I said it should come with penalties too, so they don't just go around dominating non-stop.
I'm certainly not a jedi in real life (nor do I intend to play one in the game), but I'd like to point out (once again, apparently) that it took only a few shots from everyday, ordinary clones to kill...well, most of the Jedi Order of the Old Republic in the execution of Order 66.
In real life, an individual with the proper training and skill most certainly can "kill like 10 guys at once." If I, as a soldier in combat (which I have been) have identical training to my entire squad but happen to be more skilled in marksmanship (I qualified expert every 6 months with every weapon I fired: M9, M203, M249, 50 cal, grenades, anti-tank - while many of my squadmates were marksmen) or other skills, then yes, it is entirely possible to do...even for a non-jedi.
Or could it be that you're forgetting the fact that at Geonosis, a somewhat large strike force of jedi, including Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights, had its numbers thinned by about 90 percent or so by non-jedi? If the discussion is going to be about Star Wars canon, it might be wise to review all of the canon before becoming upset about (perceived) gameplay mechanics.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Okay why do Jedi or even Sith have to be more powerful than the other heroes in the Starwars universe. They are "overt" force users, but in A New Hope, Obi Wan explaines that the Force "is an energy field created by all living things" Jedi and Sith are trained to use and see the Force in specific ways; but those aren't the only ways it can manifest itself. Is Han Solo defying the odds and navigating an asteroid field Skill, luck or just his untrained and subconcious use of the same powers Luke uses. It is the innate power of the force harnessed by an elite smuggler/Bounty hunter that makes them superior too a Padawan and the equal of a Jedi knight or Sith
QFTW.
It really IS that simple. Another poster remarked about the PnP RPGs most MMOs are based on, and the Star Wars RPG, (most recent one anyway,) allows for all of the heroes to tap into the Force periodically, (albeit subconsciously for non Force-Sensitive heroes,) to improve they're chances of success. The Force is not an exclusive thing to Jedi and Sith.
Another thing I thought of is that if you actually wanted to be like a Jedi Master without any in-game stats/powers doing it for you, you'd pretty much have to be a Jedi in real life, to kill like 10 guys at once with equal in game classes. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not a Jedi let alone a Jedi Master in real life.(and no, you're not.) So, I think that's another good reason why the Jedi class should be more powerful than average, Jo Bob smuggler.
You all seem to be completely forgetting that I said it should come with penalties too, so they don't just go around dominating non-stop.
I'm certainly not a jedi in real life (nor do I intend to play one in the game), but I'd like to point out (once again, apparently) that it took only a few shots from everyday, ordinary clones to kill...well, most of the Jedi Order of the Old Republic in the execution of Order 66.
In real life, an individual with the proper training and skill most certainly can "kill like 10 guys at once." If I, as a soldier in combat (which I have been) have identical training to my entire squad but happen to be more skilled in marksmanship (I qualified expert every 6 months with every weapon I fired: M9, M203, M249, 50 cal, grenades, anti-tank - while many of my squadmates were marksmen) or other skills, then yes, it is entirely possible to do...even for a non-jedi.
Or could it be that you're forgetting the fact that at Geonosis, a somewhat large strike force of jedi, including Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights, had its numbers thinned by about 90 percent or so by non-jedi? If the discussion is going to be about Star Wars canon, it might be wise to review all of the canon before becoming upset about (perceived) gameplay mechanics.
Seeing as how there were many large war machines, advanced weapons, and all those manner of things involved in the battle of geonosis, it is no mystery how many Jedi could have been killed. I don't know if you knew this or just conveniently left it out, but I'd say it is a major fact of the situation.
And, you seem to assume that everyone strolled up and casually blasted every Jedi during Order 66. While the movies did seem to portray that, I think it was just to save time, and to not show battles of Jedi most people don't know or care about.
This is what I interpret when I hear that all classes are going to be equally balanced. If Bioware even tries to tell me through story that I'm a Jedi Master or something, but I'm equal to all other classes, I'm going to burst out laughing. I guess I'm just going to have to take it that I will be playing a padawan with no chance of making Knight and beyond, no matter what they tell me. It would make more sense this way, because then, I could actually believe that other classes stand an equal chance against me. Sure, I'll probably get Knight like powers while leveling, but as long as other classes get equally strong powers, it's spit in the face to the whole concept of Jedi. I will in no way, shape, or form, ever believe that pistol totin Joe Bob smuggler even stands a remote chance against even a Jedi Knight, let alone Master, no matter how much elite training or experience they have.
I think there are ways to implement alpha classes if they actually put some effort into balancing them out other ways, such as, long periods of half force power/health after death, or maybe each time you die you lose the ability to use a few powers for each death for a moderate amount of time. BTW, before anyone comes in here saying "This isn't SWG!!!" I know that, but it is Star Wars.
To me, having anything but a padawan equal to other classes is the equivalent of taking a family size dook square on top of the Star Wars IP.
Woah now, not true.
Anyone remember the fight of a lifetime that Jango (a bounty hunter) gave Master Kenobi? How about the fight that Boba put up to Luke Skywalker? Not to mention the number of Knights slain in wars against droids and living beings (Clone Wars? The Jedi fought with the Clones, yes, but quite a few were taken out my droids.) Frankly, if a droid can take out a Knight or Master, a human definitely can.
Those, were just off the top of my head from the movies and shows. This isn't even bringing up the many times it has happened in the Expanded Universe.
Your arguement is very flawed and hollow.
From your post, I can see that you didn't read the whole thread before posting.
One point of Jedi vs BH is that BHs mainly rely on their trinkets to be effective.
Another point is, all those who actually put up a fight against Jedi are above average, or the absolute elite, themselves.
And to me your droid argument is flawed seeing how advanced AI could easily do things better than any average human.
By all means, everyone continue to say Jedi are just random schmoes, able to be easily taken care of by anyone with training in their respective fields.
I'm done here, apparently the most legendary warriors in the Star Wars universe are cannon fodder according to the majority of Star Wars fans.
Yes, they are the elite of their kind. When you play a game what are? A hero, the elite, one of the best and brightest. That's what BioWare is trying to do. I'm not saying that these awesome Jedi are cannon-fodder, I'm saying that they are characters in the Star Wars canon that would fit into the mold of other announced classes that can beat Master Jedi.
This means, at least to me, that if I play a really awesome Bounty Hunter (and, with the way BioWare seems to be going, each player will be awesome) I can beat an awesome Jedi, as Jango and Boba nearly did. You forget that a master of a praticular trade and a master jedi, can make a pretty even match, as shown with the Boba and Jango examples.
As for the droids, they're AI and not overly strong or fast. They follow a fairly predictable pattern but are great in numbers.
In the end, the Jedi aren't uber elite superheroes as you're thinking, they're great warriors, just as many of the player characters will be.
And, we all know BioWare will let you become a Master Jedi no matter what, even if they're not as powerful as they should be. Game balance beats out canon and lore in my book.
And Jusomede, I see you saying "well, it's because of advanced weaponary". Well, don't the jedi have the force and lightsabers? Are you saying that no one else should have something like advanced weaponry, or a trap to give them an advantage? That's sure what it sounds like. Of course if you take away bounty hunter's tricks, and the droids numbers, and weaponary, the Jedi will win, unless of course, you do like wise and take away their force. Being, they use that to use their saber so precisely. So, what I say is:
"Seeing how the Jedi have lightsabers and The Force, it's no wonder they win.... Unless the other side gets big war machines and more advanced tech."
____________________________ Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online --- == RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP == --- Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online --- Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth ____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
This is what I interpret when I hear that all classes are going to be equally balanced. If Bioware even tries to tell me through story that I'm a Jedi Master or something, but I'm equal to all other classes, I'm going to burst out laughing. I guess I'm just going to have to take it that I will be playing a padawan with no chance of making Knight and beyond, no matter what they tell me. It would make more sense this way, because then, I could actually believe that other classes stand an equal chance against me. Sure, I'll probably get Knight like powers while leveling, but as long as other classes get equally strong powers, it's spit in the face to the whole concept of Jedi. I will in no way, shape, or form, ever believe that pistol totin Joe Bob smuggler even stands a remote chance against even a Jedi Knight, let alone Master, no matter how much elite training or experience they have.
I think there are ways to implement alpha classes if they actually put some effort into balancing them out other ways, such as, long periods of half force power/health after death, or maybe each time you die you lose the ability to use a few powers for each death for a moderate amount of time. BTW, before anyone comes in here saying "This isn't SWG!!!" I know that, but it is Star Wars.
To me, having anything but a padawan equal to other classes is the equivalent of taking a family size dook square on top of the Star Wars IP.
This is what I interpret when I hear that all classes are going to be equally balanced. If Bioware even tries to tell me through story that I'm a Jedi Master or something, but I'm equal to all other classes, I'm going to burst out laughing. I guess I'm just going to have to take it that I will be playing a padawan with no chance of making Knight and beyond, no matter what they tell me. It would make more sense this way, because then, I could actually believe that other classes stand an equal chance against me. Sure, I'll probably get Knight like powers while leveling, but as long as other classes get equally strong powers, it's spit in the face to the whole concept of Jedi. I will in no way, shape, or form, ever believe that pistol totin Joe Bob smuggler even stands a remote chance against even a Jedi Knight, let alone Master, no matter how much elite training or experience they have.
I think there are ways to implement alpha classes if they actually put some effort into balancing them out other ways, such as, long periods of half force power/health after death, or maybe each time you die you lose the ability to use a few powers for each death for a moderate amount of time. BTW, before anyone comes in here saying "This isn't SWG!!!" I know that, but it is Star Wars.
To me, having anything but a padawan equal to other classes is the equivalent of taking a family size dook square on top of the Star Wars IP.
Woah now, not true.
Anyone remember the fight of a lifetime that Jango (a bounty hunter) gave Master Kenobi? How about the fight that Boba put up to Luke Skywalker? Not to mention the number of Knights slain in wars against droids and living beings (Clone Wars? The Jedi fought with the Clones, yes, but quite a few were taken out my droids.) Frankly, if a droid can take out a Knight or Master, a human definitely can.
Those, were just off the top of my head from the movies and shows. This isn't even bringing up the many times it has happened in the Expanded Universe.
Your arguement is very flawed and hollow.
From your post, I can see that you didn't read the whole thread before posting.
One point of Jedi vs BH is that BHs mainly rely on their trinkets to be effective.
Another point is, all those who actually put up a fight against Jedi are above average, or the absolute elite, themselves.
And to me your droid argument is flawed seeing how advanced AI could easily do things better than any average human.
By all means, everyone continue to say Jedi are just random schmoes, able to be easily taken care of by anyone with training in their respective fields.
I'm done here, apparently the most legendary warriors in the Star Wars universe are cannon fodder according to the majority of Star Wars fans.
Why dont you just do a jedi and be done with it already? You dont even need to take it out to dinner first.
Comments
This is the best reply I've heard here. I would suppose it could depend on the player to become a Jedi Master instead of just having it given to them.
But really, if they want to stick to the concept of Jedi they should make them at least slightly more powerful than other classes.
slightly more powerful? really? thats the worst suggestion you can ever give.
Ok, so let's hear your opinions/suggestions on the subject instead of trolls.
This is the best reply I've heard here. I would suppose it could depend on the player to become a Jedi Master instead of just having it given to them.
But really, if they want to stick to the concept of Jedi they should make them at least slightly more powerful than other classes.
slightly more powerful? really? thats the worst suggestion you can ever give.
Ok, so let's hear your opinions/suggestions on the subject instead of trolls.
all you are doing is trolling. everytime someone says something, you change your tune.
This is the best reply I've heard here. I would suppose it could depend on the player to become a Jedi Master instead of just having it given to them.
But really, if they want to stick to the concept of Jedi they should make them at least slightly more powerful than other classes.
Quoted myself, have some more to add on these lines.
Another thing I thought of is that if you actually wanted to be like a Jedi Master without any in-game stats/powers doing it for you, you'd pretty much have to be a Jedi in real life, to kill like 10 guys at once with equal in game classes.
I don't know about you guys, but I'm not a Jedi let alone a Jedi Master in real life.(and no, you're not.)
So, I think that's another good reason why the Jedi class should be more powerful than average, Jo Bob smuggler.
You all seem to be completely forgetting that I said it should come with penalties too, so they don't just go around dominating non-stop.
It was Coleman Trebor, a jedi master and council member.
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coleman_Trebor
Enough Said.
So lets say that Jedi should be more powerful than other classes....
We have a server with 500k players and guess what? 490k of them are Jedi....
When it comes to Online games you HAVE to have balance. Lets take LoTRO for example. Lore Masters were rare and extremely powerful in the books (even the movies to a lesser extent) but in the game they are not. Why is this? BALANCE.
Remember OP... The word for the day is BALANCE... B-A-L-A-N-C-E
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Something people are forgetting. Whether it's because some of you are young, just never don't really have much experience in the origin of MMORPGS.
MMORPGS came from PnP RPGs. The whole point of it is that you ARE the hero. You ARE the elite omg badass. You ARE Mace Windu, you ARE Jango/Bobba Fett, you ARE Luke Skywalker.
You ARE the hero/villain of this story. That was the point. That's one of the biggest complaints (not from gamers themselves, but PnP players and some developers that I've watched on TechTV and read about.) The complaint that people are losing that feeling of being the hero/villain because so schmo ragtag can kill them.
But that's beside the point. You are the hero/villain. You should be able to kill them.
It was Coleman Trebor, a jedi master and council member.
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coleman_Trebor
Enough Said.
So lets say that Jedi should be more powerful than other classes....
We have a server with 500k players and guess what? 490k of them are Jedi....
When it comes to Online games you HAVE to have balance. Lets take LoTRO for example. Lore Masters were rare and extremely powerful in the books (even the movies to a lesser extent) but in the game they are not. Why is this? BALANCE.
Remember OP... The word for the day is BALANCE... B-A-L-A-N-C-E
I could see everyone being a Jedi if they didn't have penalties, although if you didn't see, in my OP I suggested that they do.
And if you think Bioware who are just stepping up to the MMO plate will have perfect balance, you're thinking nothing short of a pipe dream.
I would like to recommend this discussions to be the nerdiest internet- based dork fight of the month
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
No game has perfect balance. But all good mmo's do have balance between classes. I do expect Bioware to get the balance right, it matters not if they have published an mmo before. With the sheer amount of contacts and experience within the business they better not make rookie studio mistakes. Unless you happened to forget... Bioware is not a rookie studio by any means. It vould be Bethesda doing an Elderscrolls MMO and I would expect a quality product (yes.. including class balance).
But I digress... I did misread that section of your inital post and I apolgize, but even with enhanced penalties for death or whatever, you have to look at the balance ability within PvP. Really this whole thread is irrelavent until we know for sure how the PvP will be (1v1, group v group, etc...).
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I'm aware of Bioware's track record, although if other game companies who they will be taking advice from can't get balancing right, then it doesn't give me a good feeling.
I'm not sure what you mean by it being irrelavent, since even if it were based around group combat, that's saying Jedi would most likely be even weaker. And if it were 1v1, well, then they would still just be equal.
What games do you think have good balance? None that I have played really stand out.
Okay why do Jedi or even Sith have to be more powerful than the other heroes in the Starwars universe. They are "overt" force users, but in A New Hope, Obi Wan explaines that the Force "is an energy field created by all living things" Jedi and Sith are trained to use and see the Force in specific ways; but those aren't the only ways it can manifest itself. Is Han Solo defying the odds and navigating an asteroid field Skill, luck or just his untrained and subconcious use of the same powers Luke uses. It is the innate power of the force harnessed by an elite smuggler/Bounty hunter that makes them superior too a Padawan and the equal of a Jedi knight or Sith
From what you're saying it sounds like asking why shouldn't someone who drives a car be able to fly a plane without any training. Sure they might have a chance of doing a few things right, but it's gonna be mostly an all out fail.
Even a Jedi Padawan should make short work of any smuggler. Basic force sensitivity gives someone a massive advantage.
As stupid as it will be seeing Jedi killed by weaklings, it would be even more stupid if there was not class ballance.
OP is the perfect example of what kind of nerd kids are going tp play Jedi. OMFGJEDIPWN players are the reason why Jedi class is always such a controversy in Star Wars MMO.
From what you're saying it sounds like asking why shouldn't someone who drives a car be able to fly a plane without any training. Sure they might have a chance of doing a few things right, but it's gonna be mostly an all out fail.
That's not what I'm saying at all so I'll make it a sports analogy.
let's say you take a guy with immense atheletic ability (strong in the Force) and train him from a young age at football. he's going to be a superstar', Peyton Manning, Walter payton etc. Luke Skywalker/Emperor Palpatine Jedi/Sith master
Athlete 2 is an average athlete (force user) trained from a young age at football, this would be your average NFL player. Jedi Padawan/Knight
Athelete 3 is the guy you read about who are track stars or other athletes (strong in the force for the purpose of this analogy) who don't play football until college but are standouts because of their natural athletic ability. Han Solo/Boba Fett types.
Athlete 2 and 3 balance innate talent with training to get to the same place through different paths
See the training and the talent combined make you a master, and there can only be a very small few of those and in no way should they be playable in an MMO. There's nothing to say that the other 'heroic' characters in the saga weren't accessing the Force in both unknown and subconcious ways thereby making them superior in skill or luck to the common person, and on par with a Jedi.
Woah now, not true.
Anyone remember the fight of a lifetime that Jango (a bounty hunter) gave Master Kenobi? How about the fight that Boba put up to Luke Skywalker? Not to mention the number of Knights slain in wars against droids and living beings (Clone Wars? The Jedi fought with the Clones, yes, but quite a few were taken out my droids.) Frankly, if a droid can take out a Knight or Master, a human definitely can.
Those, were just off the top of my head from the movies and shows. This isn't even bringing up the many times it has happened in the Expanded Universe.
Your arguement is very flawed and hollow.
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Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
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"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Woah now, not true.
Anyone remember the fight of a lifetime that Jango (a bounty hunter) gave Master Kenobi? How about the fight that Boba put up to Luke Skywalker? Not to mention the number of Knights slain in wars against droids and living beings (Clone Wars? The Jedi fought with the Clones, yes, but quite a few were taken out my droids.) Frankly, if a droid can take out a Knight or Master, a human definitely can.
Those, were just off the top of my head from the movies and shows. This isn't even bringing up the many times it has happened in the Expanded Universe.
Your arguement is very flawed and hollow.
From your post, I can see that you didn't read the whole thread before posting.
One point of Jedi vs BH is that BHs mainly rely on their trinkets to be effective.
Another point is, all those who actually put up a fight against Jedi are above average, or the absolute elite, themselves.
And to me your droid argument is flawed seeing how advanced AI could easily do things better than any average human.
By all means, everyone continue to say Jedi are just random schmoes, able to be easily taken care of by anyone with training in their respective fields.
I'm done here, apparently the most legendary warriors in the Star Wars universe are cannon fodder according to the majority of Star Wars fans.
Um, not to mention Order Sixty Six (Great Jedi Purge) in which Clone troopers pretty much murdered every jedi except Yoda, Obi Wan and nameless others.
That was mentioned previously.
Bounty hunters are bad ass dudes if anything I would be pissed if a Jedi was OP to a Bounty hunter lol.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
I'm certainly not a jedi in real life (nor do I intend to play one in the game), but I'd like to point out (once again, apparently) that it took only a few shots from everyday, ordinary clones to kill...well, most of the Jedi Order of the Old Republic in the execution of Order 66.
In real life, an individual with the proper training and skill most certainly can "kill like 10 guys at once." If I, as a soldier in combat (which I have been) have identical training to my entire squad but happen to be more skilled in marksmanship (I qualified expert every 6 months with every weapon I fired: M9, M203, M249, 50 cal, grenades, anti-tank - while many of my squadmates were marksmen) or other skills, then yes, it is entirely possible to do...even for a non-jedi.
Or could it be that you're forgetting the fact that at Geonosis, a somewhat large strike force of jedi, including Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights, had its numbers thinned by about 90 percent or so by non-jedi? If the discussion is going to be about Star Wars canon, it might be wise to review all of the canon before becoming upset about (perceived) gameplay mechanics.
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Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
QFTW.
It really IS that simple. Another poster remarked about the PnP RPGs most MMOs are based on, and the Star Wars RPG, (most recent one anyway,) allows for all of the heroes to tap into the Force periodically, (albeit subconsciously for non Force-Sensitive heroes,) to improve they're chances of success. The Force is not an exclusive thing to Jedi and Sith.
I'm certainly not a jedi in real life (nor do I intend to play one in the game), but I'd like to point out (once again, apparently) that it took only a few shots from everyday, ordinary clones to kill...well, most of the Jedi Order of the Old Republic in the execution of Order 66.
In real life, an individual with the proper training and skill most certainly can "kill like 10 guys at once." If I, as a soldier in combat (which I have been) have identical training to my entire squad but happen to be more skilled in marksmanship (I qualified expert every 6 months with every weapon I fired: M9, M203, M249, 50 cal, grenades, anti-tank - while many of my squadmates were marksmen) or other skills, then yes, it is entirely possible to do...even for a non-jedi.
Or could it be that you're forgetting the fact that at Geonosis, a somewhat large strike force of jedi, including Jedi Masters and Jedi Knights, had its numbers thinned by about 90 percent or so by non-jedi? If the discussion is going to be about Star Wars canon, it might be wise to review all of the canon before becoming upset about (perceived) gameplay mechanics.
Seeing as how there were many large war machines, advanced weapons, and all those manner of things involved in the battle of geonosis, it is no mystery how many Jedi could have been killed. I don't know if you knew this or just conveniently left it out, but I'd say it is a major fact of the situation.
And, you seem to assume that everyone strolled up and casually blasted every Jedi during Order 66. While the movies did seem to portray that, I think it was just to save time, and to not show battles of Jedi most people don't know or care about.
Woah now, not true.
Anyone remember the fight of a lifetime that Jango (a bounty hunter) gave Master Kenobi? How about the fight that Boba put up to Luke Skywalker? Not to mention the number of Knights slain in wars against droids and living beings (Clone Wars? The Jedi fought with the Clones, yes, but quite a few were taken out my droids.) Frankly, if a droid can take out a Knight or Master, a human definitely can.
Those, were just off the top of my head from the movies and shows. This isn't even bringing up the many times it has happened in the Expanded Universe.
Your arguement is very flawed and hollow.
From your post, I can see that you didn't read the whole thread before posting.
One point of Jedi vs BH is that BHs mainly rely on their trinkets to be effective.
Another point is, all those who actually put up a fight against Jedi are above average, or the absolute elite, themselves.
And to me your droid argument is flawed seeing how advanced AI could easily do things better than any average human.
By all means, everyone continue to say Jedi are just random schmoes, able to be easily taken care of by anyone with training in their respective fields.
I'm done here, apparently the most legendary warriors in the Star Wars universe are cannon fodder according to the majority of Star Wars fans.
Yes, they are the elite of their kind. When you play a game what are? A hero, the elite, one of the best and brightest. That's what BioWare is trying to do. I'm not saying that these awesome Jedi are cannon-fodder, I'm saying that they are characters in the Star Wars canon that would fit into the mold of other announced classes that can beat Master Jedi.
This means, at least to me, that if I play a really awesome Bounty Hunter (and, with the way BioWare seems to be going, each player will be awesome) I can beat an awesome Jedi, as Jango and Boba nearly did. You forget that a master of a praticular trade and a master jedi, can make a pretty even match, as shown with the Boba and Jango examples.
As for the droids, they're AI and not overly strong or fast. They follow a fairly predictable pattern but are great in numbers.
In the end, the Jedi aren't uber elite superheroes as you're thinking, they're great warriors, just as many of the player characters will be.
And, we all know BioWare will let you become a Master Jedi no matter what, even if they're not as powerful as they should be. Game balance beats out canon and lore in my book.
And Jusomede, I see you saying "well, it's because of advanced weaponary". Well, don't the jedi have the force and lightsabers? Are you saying that no one else should have something like advanced weaponry, or a trap to give them an advantage? That's sure what it sounds like. Of course if you take away bounty hunter's tricks, and the droids numbers, and weaponary, the Jedi will win, unless of course, you do like wise and take away their force. Being, they use that to use their saber so precisely. So, what I say is:
"Seeing how the Jedi have lightsabers and The Force, it's no wonder they win.... Unless the other side gets big war machines and more advanced tech."
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
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== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
---
Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
---
Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Originally posted by jusomdude
This is what I interpret when I hear that all classes are going to be equally balanced. If Bioware even tries to tell me through story that I'm a Jedi Master or something, but I'm equal to all other classes, I'm going to burst out laughing.
I guess I'm just going to have to take it that I will be playing a padawan with no chance of making Knight and beyond, no matter what they tell me. It would make more sense this way, because then, I could actually believe that other classes stand an equal chance against me.
Sure, I'll probably get Knight like powers while leveling, but as long as other classes get equally strong powers, it's spit in the face to the whole concept of Jedi. I will in no way, shape, or form, ever believe that pistol totin Joe Bob smuggler even stands a remote chance against even a Jedi Knight, let alone Master, no matter how much elite training or experience they have.
I think there are ways to implement alpha classes if they actually put some effort into balancing them out other ways, such as, long periods of half force power/health after death, or maybe each time you die you lose the ability to use a few powers for each death for a moderate amount of time.
BTW, before anyone comes in here saying "This isn't SWG!!!" I know that, but it is Star Wars.
To me, having anything but a padawan equal to other classes is the equivalent of taking a family size dook square on top of the Star Wars IP.
Woah now, not true.
Anyone remember the fight of a lifetime that Jango (a bounty hunter) gave Master Kenobi? How about the fight that Boba put up to Luke Skywalker? Not to mention the number of Knights slain in wars against droids and living beings (Clone Wars? The Jedi fought with the Clones, yes, but quite a few were taken out my droids.) Frankly, if a droid can take out a Knight or Master, a human definitely can.
Those, were just off the top of my head from the movies and shows. This isn't even bringing up the many times it has happened in the Expanded Universe.
Your arguement is very flawed and hollow.
From your post, I can see that you didn't read the whole thread before posting.
One point of Jedi vs BH is that BHs mainly rely on their trinkets to be effective.
Another point is, all those who actually put up a fight against Jedi are above average, or the absolute elite, themselves.
And to me your droid argument is flawed seeing how advanced AI could easily do things better than any average human.
By all means, everyone continue to say Jedi are just random schmoes, able to be easily taken care of by anyone with training in their respective fields.
I'm done here, apparently the most legendary warriors in the Star Wars universe are cannon fodder according to the majority of Star Wars fans.
Why dont you just do a jedi and be done with it already? You dont even need to take it out to dinner first.