I personally found NRDS (not red shoot it) confusing and alien to FFA in general.
By all means, you should play eve in such a way that it does not tax your intellect to the point where the game becomes unenjoyable.
This very solidly supports many of my assumptions about the brain power of my average NBSI opponent.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
I personally found NRDS (not red shoot it) confusing and alien to FFA in general.
First off, it's "Not red don't shoot". What you wrote makes no sense.
By all means, you should play eve in such a way that it does not tax your intellect to the point where the game becomes unenjoyable.
This very solidly supports many of my assumptions about the brain power of my average NBSI opponent.
I've always played NBSI, mostly to protect my alliances space, but also to make sure whoever he was didn't harm me. Compare it to prison, kindof, everyone is deadly, everyone wants to harm you - unless you put yourself in a position of respect.
It's a paranoid way of life, but it works.
NRDS, to me, makes sense too, though. It's how most people live their lives, I'd say.
But I like having the upper hand in a fight.
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Originally posted by Enkindu Originally posted by PatchDay I personally found NRDS (not red shoot it) confusing and alien to FFA in general.
By all means, you should play eve in such a way that it does not tax your intellect to the point where the game becomes unenjoyable. This very solidly supports many of my assumptions about the brain power of my average NBSI opponent.
If there's anything i absolutely detest in gaming, it's elitists. People who are thinking they are on some higher moral ground because of some arbitrary restriction they put in place to separate themselves from everyone else, only so they can stroke their ego in public about how elitist they are.
Originally posted by Gdemami Originally posted by Vetarnias
Originally posted by Vetarnias
I could mention how that attitude basically made the stream of new players in Pirates of the Burning Sea dry up: first they were told to level to 50,
Well, let's talk about EVE. Why should new players be considered useless? Don't they have a role they could fill? As for your list above, my friends were able to sail basic cruisers with around 1 million points, yet they're supposed to be still crappy at 5 million points? On the other hand, I'm at 1.7 million points and still can't sail a cruiser -- because I went for mining barges instead. Oh but that's right, useless in PvP therefore worthless,
1-there is no levels in eve ,youll train skills forever .You cant finish training skill and than jump to a ship
2-New players are not useless ,it is your imagination only .Problem is you cant take a new player has no idea about game mechanics to 0.0 and hope him/her survive .Lets look you , with 1.7m skill point you have no chance to survive at 0.0 , .You cant mine alone=cant make money will need another player tank belt for you ,if you cant find another player youll sit in a station and get bored .Nice ?But other hand you could jump to a frigate and could tackle and/or salvage wrecks at belts haul ores etc
You are useless for pvp it is correct .You have no place in a PVP corp atm ,but what you are forgotting is there are mining corps you can join ,actually at 1.7m you should be in a training corp .I think eve is not for you if you did not play any game more than 6-7 months ,you need patient and dedication for eve
Because I've seen the same thing in practically every MMO I've played, even inconsequential ones like WoW, where the guild leader started barking orders about how we weren't levelling up to 80 fast enough, or that we didn't roll healers. My friends and I almost quit that guild out of that; instead, we let it pass, got bored and left WoW. Then there was that case in Pirates of the Burning Sea, where I remember having an informal chat with someone which eventually led to discussions of guilds in the game. I had returned after ten months and was unaffiliated, so I asked what were the good guilds (they're called "societies" over there) to join, and naturally he started talking about the one he had joined. Even before I even told him whether I was interested or not, it turned into a job interview -- what was my experience, that sort of thing, whether I knew about this or that (including stuff that was added into the game after I left the first time) -- so I instinctively realized that a society which asked for that kind of stuff would turn into a bossy second job. It ended when I excused myself and logged off; needless to say that I never heard from them again. But I really don't care whether my crappy peeveepee sullies the glorious name of their leetness patrol, because I think such guilds take themselves far too seriously to my liking.
Sounds like you had a bad and extremely uncommon experience in PotBS.
What an elitist vision of the game you're peddling, as though the frigate player were completely useless because he can't pilot a battleship and, therefore, a burden to their corporation. I could mention how that attitude basically made the stream of new players in Pirates of the Burning Sea dry up: first they were told to level to 50, then they were expected to have the same experience as older players, then they were expected to buy themselves one of those ridiculously expensive endgame ships (we're talking 20-50 times the price of the previous level) just to take part in port battles. You know what they said about lowbies in PvP red circles? They were liabilities. Excluded from the PvP part of the game; excluded from societies which didn't want them tagging along. Then they stopped showing up. I know you're going to say it's all about natural selection, weeding out the weak, etc., but games are a business. Weed out too many and you're left with a dead game, which PotBS is still struggling to avoid. But it takes a particular kind of masochist to grind for 10 million doubloons to buy a First Rate, but that's all the game got in the end, and port battles were sometimes filled with 1/3 of First Rates on each side. Which meant it sucked if you made the mistake of picking the weakest faction, or if you objected to ride-the-steamroll mentality.
Did we play the same PotBS?
But I know that you care about none of that, 'cause it's not about EVE, correct? Well, let's talk about EVE. Why should new players be considered useless? Don't they have a role they could fill?
Whoa there. No one is saying a new player is useless. The thread is about not just joining a corp but one that is in an alliance... a 0.0 alliance. There's a big difference between PotBS, where you players are often chilling in uncontested safe zones, and a 0.0 alliance where your team is going to spend the majority of their time in a free-for-all combat zone and losses cost money.
As for your list above, my friends were able to sail basic cruisers with around 1 million points, yet they're supposed to be still crappy at 5 million points? On the other hand, I'm at 1.7 million points and still can't sail a cruiser -- because I went for mining barges instead. Oh but that's right, useless in PvP therefore worthless, never mind that my game has always been the economy, not peeveepee, precisely because "peeveepee" usually means "my ship is bigger than yours, my gear is better than yours, and you're dead".
At this point it's reasonable to conclude that this rant has little, if anything, to do with EVE and more to do with some really traumatic experience you had in PotBS.
Economic players are useless, because real peeveepeeers never mine or trade, they just steal what they need, right? But I suspect only a select few can get to play the economy for the corp; the rest are just reduced to grind monkeys or PvP grunts. Never mind that the economy is just as tiered as the peeveepee, which I find extremely annoying.
See above.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I personally found NRDS (not red shoot it) confusing and alien to FFA in general.
By all means, you should play eve in such a way that it does not tax your intellect to the point where the game becomes unenjoyable.
This very solidly supports many of my assumptions about the brain power of my average NBSI opponent.
If there's anything i absolutely detest in gaming, it's elitists. People who are thinking they are on some higher moral ground because of some arbitrary restriction they put in place to separate themselves from everyone else, only so they can stroke their ego in public about how elitist they are.
If you read up a few posts you might realize that I'm giving patchday a hard time for making completely unfounded assumptions about me. I'm not elitist at all in reality.. I'm just tired of people that think NRDS policy is absurd. But hey, this is internet spaceships and silly internet discussion, so call me elitist, insane, or moronic all day long... makes no difference to me.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Goonswarm proved a long time ago that even the most newbie of newbs can be essential for fleet pvp. They don't have any SP requirement at all, and it has benefited them greatly. (granted, goonswarm is closed to members of the something awful forum and associated friends, but there are other 0.0 alliances that are starting to get into a similar mentality)
Most pvp focused groups have SP limits and expect a certain level of performance for very good reasons, in the large fleet warfare what would you rather have at your disposal? 100 battleships with pilots over 30m skill points who can snipe at over 175km and do 300 dps or 100 battleships with pilots around 8m skill points with T1 guns who can barely do 200dps at 150km?
It comes down to this in other types of combat like small gang warfare when you want highly skilled remote rep BS and logistics or decently skilled HACs.
Of course any fleet or gang needs support and the younger characters can fly ships like interceptors and still be extremely essential, but there are limits on how many you actually need before the gang becomes gimped. Its not elitism its just the way the game is but the better alliances will deliberately manage the mix of newer and older characters but unfortunately the worse ones will recruit them purely as cannon fodder and this can lead to a pretty shitty game experience for the younger players.
Life in those alliances can be pretty terrible for the newer players and you are totally at the whim of the alliance leadership and they tax members for the privilege of being in their alliance and then expect them to go out and defend the leaderships cash cows costing them in ships and assets, you will never have any say (only the choice to leave) and other people will make decisions about how you have to the play the game you pay for and sometimes those decisions can cost you almost everything you own in the game
I would advise any younger character to seriously think about joining other areas of pvp if that's the way they want to go and there are plenty of other options like factional warfare and younger up coming merc groups along with low sec piracy/pvp corps or empire wardec corps, once they are wiser to the tricks and the way politics work in EVE they are better informed and can pick a better alliance.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
EvE is about attitude first , personal skill second and last sp What you lack is the right attitude . 5-6 months is nothing in EvE , and if you dont plan to hang around longer why would any corp invest in you? The sp requirement is well....a "guarantee" that you can actually be usefull , though a player with 1.5m sp in the right places and the right attitude can be worth a lot more then an empire carebear with 20m sp who cant work in a team... I`ll say again , sp , ships, specializations , are all secondary to attitude, team-spirit and general willingness to work twards a common goal
Oh, I realize that what I lack is the right attitude, since I find ganking cowardly, scamming despicable, and PvP pointless generally. However, I think it's a serious problem when "5-6 months is nothing in EVE", and even worse when players start using rhetoric like "why would any corp invest in you?".
The problem is, it isn't like going to med school or any other long-term goal, because those happen in real life, and this is a game. (That's why I'm wary of those libertarians who play the game because they like its ideology; it should be fine to scam? Really?) There is no corp "investing in me"; there is just me paying a monthly fee for this game, and you're telling me I can't genuinely play it for six months? So it isn't like my boss paying for a few technical classes he's sending me to for my promotion; it's more like the suits at McDonald's barking orders as to how loyal its employees should be when it refuses to do anything to encourage said loyalty.
Those corps don't really "invest" in you; they're just glad another peon (who, in this game, they're 95% sure is a mole, 98% of the time) just wants to tag along, and maybe they'll throw him a bone every now and then, but not more. I'm all for common goals, but not when it turns out to be "The corp's inner sanctum decided that we should do this; now go out and do it".
As Yahtzee put it: "Second job that you have to pay for."
As Xennith pointed out, the most important is attitude. Your attitude won't get you anywhere in EVE because EVE rewards those who are smart, open minded and those who make an effort to reach their goals. Coming here with complete lack of knowledge and experience making invalid assumptions makes you look like a fool only. OK, you don't like EVE, most likely EVE does not like you either so move along, please. ==================== Why discussing with someone who is clueless, having no experience with the game and matters he talk about, showing zero effort to actualy learn? It's just empty mouthing...
Interesting how I ran into the same argument while criticizing World of Warcraft, ie. that I could not possibly know how great a game it was because I had only reached level 46 and never got on to the endgame. So? That game was a treadmill; everything I read about it was how even the endgame was one, and my friends who had actually reached it confirmed it. But you know the WoW fanboys: Even if I had been playing since release, there was something I would have missed; otherwise I could never have thought the game was bad (and that was an accusation they actually threw at me: Why hadn't I been playing WoW since release? Answer, in case you're thinking of doing the same: I only got a computer capable of playing it in 2007).
But I see that the EVE tactics for dismissing criticism are somewhat different. Whereas the WoW fanboys will make much of when you started to play, what level you've reached, what achievements and gear you've obtained (to be expected in a game where everything is determined by how much time you play), here the EVE supporters, based on what you're saying, dismiss criticism by pointing out that the detractor has the intellectual acuity of a bag of hammers. If I failed at the game -- and I must have failed; otherwise I wouldn't be complaining, right? -- it's all because my feeble intellect has prevented me from understanding the EVE learning curve. Lovely.
As an argument, it's just a few notches above (and probably the heir to) "you must suck at PvP". You know how I invariably answer that one? "Yeah, I probably would if I bothered to try, but what is it to you?" Or, if it's yet too sophisticated, "Okay, I suck, so what?" If that matters all that much to you, have your PvP skills inscribed on your headstone to see if anyone cares. Sure, it might get boring if you lose all the time, especially if you're supposed to grind to replace your losses (I'm expecting a few comments on weeding out the weak, etc.), but you're not even inquiring as to whether I'm into PvP in the first place, which I might be in some contexts but not here. In EVE, I've never strayed from highsec; never encountered PvP; never got ganked. But when I see people taking pride in such gratuitous ganking, how can I not raise an eyebrow?
You're probably right on one thing, and it is that EVE is not my type of game; I was complaining about how scamming was morally unacceptable and ganking pretty much the same, long before I picked up the game, but I tried it anyway, because I thought there would be more to it. But there isn't. PvE is a chore, and the missions are the most cookie-cutter I've encountered anywhere. Mining is fun for a while, then it gets repetitive. The economy revolves so much around tiers that it's also a waste of time at entry level. You know what I was thinking when I saw what portion of the game was available to me in Empire space? "This game is taking me for a fool." Not just the players, the designers as well. I remember reading someone's post about how EVE's entire marketing campaign was aimed at attracting victims rather than players, and the game itself confirms that. The beginner game -- you know, the one to which I should be confined for six months according to this thread -- is unrelieved boredom, as though they're almost pushing me into lowsec or even lower. But if players here think you don't belong in those areas for the first half-year of play, why is the game so eager to send you there? To be someone else's victim.
So you see, you could blame me for my lack of knowledge of the intricacies of starbase management, and I wouldn't care, because it's an aspect of gameplay which I would never expect to see anyway, let alone benefit from knowing about. For that matter, I was open-minded about EVE for maybe two weeks, until I started delving into information about the game. I always asked myself, "do I realistically have a chance to ever get to enjoy this aspect of the game?" Most of the answers were in the negative. Don't get me wrong, I like learning for learning's sake, but I won't do that for a game, where every detail has a primarily utilitarian underpinning. I read about what affects or risks affecting me; the rest is just filler, and there is nothing preventing me from returning to it if I need it. So I saw how limited my options were, and this feeling was shared by my friends, so we decided to seek out another corporation we could join, but only loser corporations have open recruitment policies, presumably because the rest of them were either too paranoid or too elitist to recruit openly. And really, if we were to join a loser corporation anyway, why not stick with our own? Finally, we agreed it was pointless and decided not to renew, and I'm the last one left because I bought the boxed edition instead of the download.
EVE doesn't even require an effort to reach one's goals, despite your claims. Otherwise, why would they resort to a static skill-levelling system that does not go faster if I'm actually logged in and performing actions? It also means that I can't even narrow the gap with players who have been at this game for five years. I'm all for long-term progression (as opposed to reaching the endgame in two months), but not when the oldtimers get a perpetual advantage because of it.
If my assumptions are invalid, correct them, something which you never bothered to do. I for one would love to be reassured that the Something Awful hyenas are not really running EVE, that the game isn't a haven for grief-dispensing trash-talkers who quickly justify their attitude by saying how smart they think they are, or that the chunk of players who matter haven't been a bunch of proud elitists since 2004.
Because I've seen the same thing in practically every MMO I've played, even inconsequential ones like WoW, where the guild leader started barking orders about how we weren't levelling up to 80 fast enough, or that we didn't roll healers. My friends and I almost quit that guild out of that; instead, we let it pass, got bored and left WoW. Then there was that case in Pirates of the Burning Sea, where I remember having an informal chat with someone which eventually led to discussions of guilds in the game. I had returned after ten months and was unaffiliated, so I asked what were the good guilds (they're called "societies" over there) to join, and naturally he started talking about the one he had joined. Even before I even told him whether I was interested or not, it turned into a job interview -- what was my experience, that sort of thing, whether I knew about this or that (including stuff that was added into the game after I left the first time) -- so I instinctively realized that a society which asked for that kind of stuff would turn into a bossy second job. It ended when I excused myself and logged off; needless to say that I never heard from them again. But I really don't care whether my crappy peeveepee sullies the glorious name of their leetness patrol, because I think such guilds take themselves far too seriously to my liking.
Sounds like you had a bad and extremely uncommon experience in PotBS.
Well, the above incident occurred in April of this year, after my return to the game (I had been on hiatus since June 2008, when Conan came out). My original society in Feb. 2008 was actually pretty good; the leader was an intelligent guy who knew his business and welcomed newcomers and casuals, and it was as good a guild as you could have joined. But the example above cemented my view of those more competitive guilds, especially so because my faction (French, on Blackbeard) could hardly have afforded to be choosy; it needed every player it could get. And it was something which bothered me, because I knew there were societies on the same side that were accepting anyone who applied. I had a low-level alt, for instance, who received a random invite on the open sea. I'm not exactly considering random invites to be the sign of a serious society; usually I avoid the guilds that use them. But here I just accepted it anyway, because it was an alt, and I figured that it was the best to be expected under the circumstances. What the society I talked about in my initial post demonstrated was that they wanted players who already knew every aspect of the game. In my case, they wanted to know the name of every society I had ever been a member of (hardly for safety reasons; you can only roll alts for one faction on a given server, so you can't be French with a Spanish alt without dual-boxing), even though I was not entirely convinced they would have heard of them. They asked me about my knowledge of certain ships, including those that had been added into the game during my hiatus. They started asking questions about my running dailies (which also were added into the game in the meantime). The sort of society, in other words, that was too busy doing their routine to ever coach new players -- let someone else handle that. As I said, I sort of put an end to the interview, because PvP never was my main interest anyway; I'm an economic player and my knowledge of PvP began and ended with how to avoid it.
What an elitist vision of the game you're peddling, as though the frigate player were completely useless because he can't pilot a battleship and, therefore, a burden to their corporation. I could mention how that attitude basically made the stream of new players in Pirates of the Burning Sea dry up: first they were told to level to 50, then they were expected to have the same experience as older players, then they were expected to buy themselves one of those ridiculously expensive endgame ships (we're talking 20-50 times the price of the previous level) just to take part in port battles. You know what they said about lowbies in PvP red circles? They were liabilities. Excluded from the PvP part of the game; excluded from societies which didn't want them tagging along. Then they stopped showing up. I know you're going to say it's all about natural selection, weeding out the weak, etc., but games are a business. Weed out too many and you're left with a dead game, which PotBS is still struggling to avoid. But it takes a particular kind of masochist to grind for 10 million doubloons to buy a First Rate, but that's all the game got in the end, and port battles were sometimes filled with 1/3 of First Rates on each side. Which meant it sucked if you made the mistake of picking the weakest faction, or if you objected to ride-the-steamroll mentality.
Did we play the same PotBS? That might depend on when you played it. By March 2008, lowbies were already asked to pass for port battles. This player (he was on Roberts, I think) wrote a month-by-month breakdown: http://www.burningsea.com/forums/showpost.php?p=342362&postcount=108 . I saw the same thing on Blackbeard. I can't say if you saw the same thing, as it might have varied according to server, faction, and time of play.
But I know that you care about none of that, 'cause it's not about EVE, correct? Well, let's talk about EVE. Why should new players be considered useless? Don't they have a role they could fill?
Whoa there. No one is saying a new player is useless. The thread is about not just joining a corp but one that is in an alliance... a 0.0 alliance. There's a big difference between PotBS, where you players are often chilling in uncontested safe zones, and a 0.0 alliance where your team is going to spend the majority of their time in a free-for-all combat zone and losses cost money.
As for your list above, my friends were able to sail basic cruisers with around 1 million points, yet they're supposed to be still crappy at 5 million points? On the other hand, I'm at 1.7 million points and still can't sail a cruiser -- because I went for mining barges instead. Oh but that's right, useless in PvP therefore worthless, never mind that my game has always been the economy, not peeveepee, precisely because "peeveepee" usually means "my ship is bigger than yours, my gear is better than yours, and you're dead".
At this point it's reasonable to conclude that this rant has little, if anything, to do with EVE and more to do with some really traumatic experience you had in PotBS. Not really. I was on one of the weaker factions in PotBS, true, but that was to be expected, and I played the economy mostly. However, when it's all about numbers, we can't really talk of skills. I especially loved that one I heard before (about Warhammer Online, but there was nothing new to it) about how weaker factions (like Order was) should just "play smarter", as though the other side were just rabble with negative IQ's always trailing behind. If one side could "play smarter", so could the other, and it would all be about numbers -- especially if you had a war of attrition going. That's why I like the simplicity of deathmatch-style games for PvP, the only type of PvP which I can tolerate. Played NavyField last year, and Battlefield Heroes a few weeks ago. Sure, they're repetitive after a while, but it's where you try to balance things out as much as possible, and it's where teamwork actually matters (though I saw precious little in both cases). There is no need for teamwork, let alone skill, in a gank environment where it's all about numbers, if not levels or gear. Example #1: The PotBS ganksquads and their tactics, usually trying to lure a victim by giving him the impression of a fair fight. If I had had the chance, I would have played port battle after port battle, because it's as close to an even fight as you can get; but it was not to be the case. Example #2: WoW PvP servers, where the superficial nature of the world (ie. where nothing you do ever affects the game world) just demonstrates how pointless the act of ganking actually is, and how much it is driven by levels. One level-80 outside the Yeti Cave will kill as many lowbies as he wants until two level-80's on your side bother showing up. Example #3: This game. Though I never saw it first-hand, why do I keep on hearing about "blobs" camping gates? See why I tend to despise PvP in this sort of game? More's the pity, because I want a meaningful RvR game; but since that means it's just a usual-suspects affair involving branch-plant guilds, I'm not expecting much. Economic players are useless, because real peeveepeeers never mine or trade, they just steal what they need, right? But I suspect only a select few can get to play the economy for the corp; the rest are just reduced to grind monkeys or PvP grunts. Never mind that the economy is just as tiered as the peeveepee, which I find extremely annoying.
Originally posted by Vetarnias The problem is, it isn't like going to med school or any other long-term goal, because those happen in real life, and this is a game. (That's why I'm wary of those libertarians who play the game because they like its ideology; it should be fine to scam? Really?) As you said it is a game. There really are not that any that don't realilse that. Still... People choose to play one game as their main past time, and they do that for years and years. Is it not great that there is some games for those people aswell? (You really should not answer no to this question, besides that it is rethorical.) And I assume that one reason is those, those that are really "serious" about this game, like in this case they want you to have a certain amount of SP's. (And no... I'm not saying that is the sole reason to have a barrier.) That in no way don't mean that there is no corporation around that don't have that barrier. Corporations even if they are "serious" that will let you in easier then the next. They aren't really hard to find in 0.0.
Comparing the commitment to medical school, or whatever, is so out of the league that it is plain silly. Still, the EVE gameplay allows you to advance your character without having to push 10 buttons on an intervall of 1 minute 5h every day... Go figure.
There is no corp "investing in me"; there is just me paying a monthly fee for this game, and you're telling me I can't genuinely play it for six months? That is very true if you have to join a corp that demands you to have an amount of SP that equals longer playtime... duh.
Vetarnias, my first thoughts are this is simply not a game you want to play but I am curious about a few things and thought I would share some of my experiences. At the moment I am rolling around to almost 4 years of continuous subscription. That being said, I get burn out and play more or less depending but I always come back.
I also have never played any other MMORPG, I have done a trail or so, but I can't get into them. What holds me in EVE is simply the single server philosophy. This structure allows for a complex interplay of PvP and the economy to develop, as well as allowing for large scale territorial war. It also ties well with roleplaying which i like.
I find that open ended structure very appealing. Also, if you want to learn to enjoy EVE, you must accept the fact that the game is centered around PvP. That even mining is a PvP activity as you are taking minerals that someone else may have wanted let alone the influence on the market.
What I don't know is what you like in a MMORPG.
Originally posted by Vetarnias For that matter, I was open-minded about EVE for maybe two weeks, until I started delving into information about the game. I always asked myself, "do I realistically have a chance to ever get to enjoy this aspect of the game?" Most of the answers were in the negative.
this will be a killer, if you start with the assumption you can't get there and there is no reason to try then you will fail.
During the time i have played i have PvP'd from t1 frigs through to dreadnaughts. I have mission ground lvl4s, taken part in territorial warfare, both as an industrialist, and as a diplomat. I have worked within a tight knit corp that does industry. I have engaged in market manipulation and profiteering. High sec semi-afk mining. And there is still so much i haven't done.
Is some of the time scale for getting this stuff going take long time to develope? well yes, it is. But i live by one rule, if it stops being fun today, stop doing it. The journey is more than the achievement. The journey must be fun. The challenge is to make that so.
So, what goal would you like to have and how can it be fun getting there?
Originally posted by Vetarnias So I saw how limited my options were, and this feeling was shared by my friends, so we decided to seek out another corporation we could join, but only loser corporations have open recruitment policies, presumably because the rest of them were either too paranoid or too elitist to recruit openly. And really, if we were to join a loser corporation anyway, why not stick with our own?
So every corporation is either a looser corp or too elitist? This will be another assumption that will prevennt you from playing. You simply won't find a good corp as you already know they are all shit.
What do you actually want from a corp? Write down the points one at a time and then prioritize them. Now,go looking. EVE is a big game and there are bound to be people doing stuff that will fit in with your list as long as the points are not intrinsicly contradictory (No PvP, but holding territory in null sec) and you can make some compromises.
A point about the elitism, for some collective tasks in the game, you just need the skills to be in place. Sucks, but it is true (170km sniper battleships anyone?). The thing is, you can choose not to play the game in those collective tasks.
Originally posted by Vetarnias EVE doesn't even require an effort to reach one's goals, despite your claims. Otherwise, why would they resort to a static skill-levelling system that does not go faster if I'm actually logged in and performing actions? It also means that I can't even narrow the gap with players who have been at this game for five years. I'm all for long-term progression (as opposed to reaching the endgame in two months), but not when the oldtimers get a perpetual advantage because of it.
You have stated that there is a lot of stuff you never wanted to do but that you want to be able to catch up to those that can do those all things. (or at least that is what it seems like to me)
At the core of the never catch up argument is the issue of progression and goals. So if you pick up a goal, and specialize, you can actually catch up to and in most cases exceed what the vets can can do in that one area. It is the way the skill system works, it has achievable level caps.
So what goal do you want for yourself? What do you want to excel at?
If that goal is "Jack of all trades" then expect a long subscription period.
riginally posted by Vetarnias Well, let's talk about EVE. Why should new players be considered useless?
You are useless for pvp it is correct .
No he is not useless, ofcourse a new player is not useless. The poster is only assuming that, as there are corporations that have higher demands than what he can fulfill.
"What lies out of my reach, noone else shall have." Sums it up pretty much.
so do you in fact believe that corps are not dependant on there members? a corp "invests" in you by allowing you to reap the rewards that the corp worked to get , in turn you`re expected to work for the corp aswell...
You think a serious self-respecting corp can affoard to just hire every and any noob out there that may or may not be around in 6 months? Let me try to put it like this : Corp leadership needs to have at least a rough estimate of what the corp is capable of industrialy/military wise , etc , in order to set achievable goals for the corp . And it`s very helpful to know those "assets" (members) are reliable and stable , you dont want to move to a 0.0 alliance and find out that 6 months later as you settle in , half your members go away to play WoW
Sure , there are plenty of corps who are just glad to tag everyone along, but , then you cant expect much from those corps either .
A more practical answer : Why would a serious corp let you in , and thus allow you to better income/cheaper ships/services/pvp etc,etc (that is investing in you , other members of the corp invest time to make your eve time more profitable/fun/whatever), if you approach with that sort of attitude?Most serious corps dont tend to artificialy inflate membership , even if sometimes your lousy 10% tax may come in handy , if you`re still not worth it.
As for decision making : Centralized decizion making (corp`s inner sanctum as you put it) works best because . period . Be sure though , there is a sever lack of people able to take those kind of tasks and actually be good at them...so if you feel you have what it takes...give it a shot. Alltough you`ll most likely fail at it if you keep going the "hell it`s just a game , 6 months is a long time "way
First: you can go through EvE without ever firing a single shot at another player , true . But if you are risk-adverse (carebear) , then EvE definately is the wrong game for you.
"But when I see people taking pride in such gratuitous ganking, how can I not raise an eyebrow?"
Well , gratious ganking as you put is is rarely "gratious" .
-It can be for profit (mabe it drops something nice...just like when you kill a mob in any other game) ,
-For safety a lot of the times (in lowsec or 0.0 , unless he`s "blue"(ally) , you MUST assume he will shoot at you if you dont shoot at him . Expanding on this, even if at the point of the encounter , he poses no threat as you have superior numbers/firepower , maybe in the next half-hour he will kill some undefended hauler from your alliance , or even you if he deems he can win at that point (the skill in eve doesnt mean twitch , thanks god , it`s ussualy about engaging under YOUR terms , and forcing an engagement where YOU have AS MUCH AS POSIBLE a chanche to win . Overkill works just fine)
Basicaly , in most cases , if he isnt a friend he`s a potential enemy , better safe then sorry . And yes , even the 10 days old character may be a spy/scout/cyno alt whatever .
"EVE doesn't even require an effort to reach one's goals, despite your claims. Otherwise, why would they resort to a static skill-levelling system that does not go faster if I'm actually logged in and performing actions? It also means that I can't even narrow the gap with players who have been at this game for five years. I'm all for long-term progression (as opposed to reaching the endgame in two months), but not when the oldtimers get a perpetual advantage because of it."
Well that all depends on what your goal is . But I found out that noobs who resort to the gap argument and the "static skill system " one are never worth bothering with , they clearly miss the point of this game. If your goal is only skillpoints , then well...I`m glad you`re leaving.
"The beginner game -- you know, the one to which I should be confined for six months according to this thread -- is unrelieved boredom, as though they're almost pushing me into lowsec or even lower. But if players here think you don't belong in those areas for the first half-year of play, why is the game so eager to send you there? To be someone else's victim."
I was in 0.0 after my first month of play . My storry is a silly one , but here it goes : I decided that "do-gooders , kill badies , missions in highsec were laaaame , and as i have a thing for necromancer/zombie/undead whatever in RPG`s , I decided to go out to 0.0 and start working for sansha`s nation. I knew little about 0.0 , but hey , i packed my cruiser with ammo and whatnot , and headed out . Made some isk on the way ratting , dodged some locals who , after a while , i realized were probably more scared of me then i wasof them , and eventually ran into a warp bubble...
My heart stoped for a few seconds...the cruiser held most of my hard-earned junk...and "you cant warp" message...and...and i took a deep breath , lit a cig , and...wow i was still alive...i started looking around and i realized some guys were shooting some other guys..i was just in there by accident . (an IAC/TCF gang killing off some MC back in 2007) So...dumb old me felt really heroic , and i decided to help (what did i know) the amarr ship , as it was ..well..i was amarr . Ofc , after TCF won , they poded me aswell without hesitation.
Back in empire and 4 beers later , i convoed the guy who poded me , and he was surprizingly friendly , explained how things work , what a bubble , who they were fighting , why they killed me...and after i expressed significant interest in 0.0 teritorial warfare , I eventually ended up next week in IAC , loosing ships like an idiot but having a blast , either defending "home" or attacking NOL. Noone ever pointed me out for not having enough sp . Most people were eager to answer my noobish questions
At this point , i ocassionaly suicide gank in empire , end ever so often , i get a decent convo asking me why/how/how much profit and such . I gladly answer on the same tone . Well then again , I`m rich enough to affoard an odd 100m to keep griefing the assholes that resort to flaming/insulting/whining. See , after 2 years , I managed to reach my initial goal of missioning for sansha nation .
Entering my current corp wasnt easy , as i`m not a great PvP`er , i die more often then not and I`m not all that eager to run around 1000 jumps for a kill , the kill itsself doesnt interest me that much , i`m kinda greedy like that and i`d rather make another 100m in that hour instead of hunting a ceptor...but if that ceptor is replaced by 20 HACS i`m among the first to rush out and meet them , and ussualy in expensive ships...
I`m too much of a noob to assume fleet command , or such things , though i`ve been offered the job every now and then , i know my current limits .
Conclusion : What to you seems griefing and ganking , to others it may simply be defensive/offensive or farming . And yes , through my EvE time , i`ve been in several goon (Something Awfull) fleets , and they SUCK!!! . But hey , it only took me two years to get settled in sansha land with 9.8 faction standing and my little personal nightmare fleet....Seeing goonswarm fall and burn , and all of there members reduced to noobships should be well achievable in another 2 years...why not? The only thing limiting in EvE is YOURSELF!
Question : Scamming is despicable and moraly wrong (who`s morals? feels like arguing with a theist nut) right? But If you would work for a year , geting a decent killboard to show off or hell , making yourself known as a good inventor/trader/whatever , geting a SA forum account and living through that for a year...and eventually get IN gs and IN a position to finish them off...would you?
If you still answer "no" based on your set of morals : If your alliance you spent years helping to build and grow would be killed off in one blow by a despicable goon traitor , and you could , at a point in the future , return the favor in some way...would you?
Originally posted by Vetarnias ... Wall of uninteresting text ...
Originally posted by Vetarnias So I saw how limited my options were...
You know, I say: Only limitation in EVE is you.
Originally posted by Vetarnias So you see, you could blame me for my lack of knowledge of the intricacies of starbase management, and I wouldn't care, because it's an aspect of gameplay which I would never expect to see anyway, let alone benefit from knowing about.
Only dumb people say they don't need to learn...
I am not here to correct your invalid assumption, it is your job to do the research or gain experience and THEN ask questions about things you need to explain. Instead you are ranting about things you have no knowledge or experience. All you have done was to read some reviews(oh boy, taking Yahtzee as reference...) and parroting here what you have read. The writers were probably as bright as you(oh boy, skill system favouring older players...).
Same as in RL, EVE rewards those who help themself, but this is not your case, you expect to be feeded.
Originally posted by nurgles During the time i have played i have PvP'd from t1 frigs through to dreadnaughts. I have mission ground lvl4s, taken part in territorial warfare, both as an industrialist, and as a diplomat. I have worked within a tight knit corp that does industry. I have engaged in market manipulation and profiteering. High sec semi-afk mining. And there is still so much i haven't done. Is some of the time scale for getting this stuff going take long time to develope? well yes, it is. But i live by one rule, if it stops being fun today, stop doing it. The journey is more than the achievement. The journey must be fun. The challenge is to make that so.
I can't even express how well you put it, nurgles.
I was lucky to meet some PVPers that were just a month into the game when I was driving a T1 frigate. I joined their little corporation and while the rest of the newbies were alt tabbing while mining, I was out killing Cruisers with our little squad chilling in Ventrilo and having a good time. I enjoyed my role in our operation so much that I set EVEmon up for T2 Assault Frigates which wouldn't finish until the following month. I didn't care because every time I got on, we would go flying around looking for people to chase down. While it would be nice to equip T2 ammo and pilot an Assault Frigate, I didn't spend my time fantasizing about driving one and bitching that real-time skill training sucked.
It's sad that new players all don't get to experience this.
Depending on the quality of the system you are allowed access to, you can make easily 100 million a day from ratting alone without even touching the wrecks or any loot or salvage.
Comments
By all means, you should play eve in such a way that it does not tax your intellect to the point where the game becomes unenjoyable.
This very solidly supports many of my assumptions about the brain power of my average NBSI opponent.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
First off, it's "Not red don't shoot". What you wrote makes no sense.
By all means, you should play eve in such a way that it does not tax your intellect to the point where the game becomes unenjoyable.
This very solidly supports many of my assumptions about the brain power of my average NBSI opponent.
I've always played NBSI, mostly to protect my alliances space, but also to make sure whoever he was didn't harm me. Compare it to prison, kindof, everyone is deadly, everyone wants to harm you - unless you put yourself in a position of respect.
It's a paranoid way of life, but it works.
NRDS, to me, makes sense too, though. It's how most people live their lives, I'd say.
But I like having the upper hand in a fight.
Follow my tweet (:
By all means, you should play eve in such a way that it does not tax your intellect to the point where the game becomes unenjoyable.
This very solidly supports many of my assumptions about the brain power of my average NBSI opponent.
If there's anything i absolutely detest in gaming, it's elitists. People who are thinking they are on some higher moral ground because of some arbitrary restriction they put in place to separate themselves from everyone else, only so they can stroke their ego in public about how elitist they are.
I could mention how that attitude basically made the stream of new players in Pirates of the Burning Sea dry up: first they were told to level to 50,
Well, let's talk about EVE. Why should new players be considered useless? Don't they have a role they could fill? As for your list above, my friends were able to sail basic cruisers with around 1 million points, yet they're supposed to be still crappy at 5 million points? On the other hand, I'm at 1.7 million points and still can't sail a cruiser -- because I went for mining barges instead. Oh but that's right, useless in PvP therefore worthless,
1-there is no levels in eve ,youll train skills forever .You cant finish training skill and than jump to a ship
2-New players are not useless ,it is your imagination only .Problem is you cant take a new player has no idea about game mechanics to 0.0 and hope him/her survive .Lets look you , with 1.7m skill point you have no chance to survive at 0.0 , .You cant mine alone=cant make money will need another player tank belt for you ,if you cant find another player youll sit in a station and get bored .Nice ?But other hand you could jump to a frigate and could tackle and/or salvage wrecks at belts haul ores etc
You are useless for pvp it is correct .You have no place in a PVP corp atm ,but what you are forgotting is there are mining corps you can join ,actually at 1.7m you should be in a training corp .I think eve is not for you if you did not play any game more than 6-7 months ,you need patient and dedication for eve
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
By all means, you should play eve in such a way that it does not tax your intellect to the point where the game becomes unenjoyable.
This very solidly supports many of my assumptions about the brain power of my average NBSI opponent.
If there's anything i absolutely detest in gaming, it's elitists. People who are thinking they are on some higher moral ground because of some arbitrary restriction they put in place to separate themselves from everyone else, only so they can stroke their ego in public about how elitist they are.
If you read up a few posts you might realize that I'm giving patchday a hard time for making completely unfounded assumptions about me. I'm not elitist at all in reality.. I'm just tired of people that think NRDS policy is absurd. But hey, this is internet spaceships and silly internet discussion, so call me elitist, insane, or moronic all day long... makes no difference to me.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Goonswarm proved a long time ago that even the most newbie of newbs can be essential for fleet pvp. They don't have any SP requirement at all, and it has benefited them greatly. (granted, goonswarm is closed to members of the something awful forum and associated friends, but there are other 0.0 alliances that are starting to get into a similar mentality)
Most pvp focused groups have SP limits and expect a certain level of performance for very good reasons, in the large fleet warfare what would you rather have at your disposal? 100 battleships with pilots over 30m skill points who can snipe at over 175km and do 300 dps or 100 battleships with pilots around 8m skill points with T1 guns who can barely do 200dps at 150km?
It comes down to this in other types of combat like small gang warfare when you want highly skilled remote rep BS and logistics or decently skilled HACs.
Of course any fleet or gang needs support and the younger characters can fly ships like interceptors and still be extremely essential, but there are limits on how many you actually need before the gang becomes gimped. Its not elitism its just the way the game is but the better alliances will deliberately manage the mix of newer and older characters but unfortunately the worse ones will recruit them purely as cannon fodder and this can lead to a pretty shitty game experience for the younger players.
Life in those alliances can be pretty terrible for the newer players and you are totally at the whim of the alliance leadership and they tax members for the privilege of being in their alliance and then expect them to go out and defend the leaderships cash cows costing them in ships and assets, you will never have any say (only the choice to leave) and other people will make decisions about how you have to the play the game you pay for and sometimes those decisions can cost you almost everything you own in the game
I would advise any younger character to seriously think about joining other areas of pvp if that's the way they want to go and there are plenty of other options like factional warfare and younger up coming merc groups along with low sec piracy/pvp corps or empire wardec corps, once they are wiser to the tricks and the way politics work in EVE they are better informed and can pick a better alliance.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Oh, I realize that what I lack is the right attitude, since I find ganking cowardly, scamming despicable, and PvP pointless generally. However, I think it's a serious problem when "5-6 months is nothing in EVE", and even worse when players start using rhetoric like "why would any corp invest in you?".
The problem is, it isn't like going to med school or any other long-term goal, because those happen in real life, and this is a game. (That's why I'm wary of those libertarians who play the game because they like its ideology; it should be fine to scam? Really?) There is no corp "investing in me"; there is just me paying a monthly fee for this game, and you're telling me I can't genuinely play it for six months? So it isn't like my boss paying for a few technical classes he's sending me to for my promotion; it's more like the suits at McDonald's barking orders as to how loyal its employees should be when it refuses to do anything to encourage said loyalty.
Those corps don't really "invest" in you; they're just glad another peon (who, in this game, they're 95% sure is a mole, 98% of the time) just wants to tag along, and maybe they'll throw him a bone every now and then, but not more. I'm all for common goals, but not when it turns out to be "The corp's inner sanctum decided that we should do this; now go out and do it".
As Yahtzee put it: "Second job that you have to pay for."
Interesting how I ran into the same argument while criticizing World of Warcraft, ie. that I could not possibly know how great a game it was because I had only reached level 46 and never got on to the endgame. So? That game was a treadmill; everything I read about it was how even the endgame was one, and my friends who had actually reached it confirmed it. But you know the WoW fanboys: Even if I had been playing since release, there was something I would have missed; otherwise I could never have thought the game was bad (and that was an accusation they actually threw at me: Why hadn't I been playing WoW since release? Answer, in case you're thinking of doing the same: I only got a computer capable of playing it in 2007).
But I see that the EVE tactics for dismissing criticism are somewhat different. Whereas the WoW fanboys will make much of when you started to play, what level you've reached, what achievements and gear you've obtained (to be expected in a game where everything is determined by how much time you play), here the EVE supporters, based on what you're saying, dismiss criticism by pointing out that the detractor has the intellectual acuity of a bag of hammers. If I failed at the game -- and I must have failed; otherwise I wouldn't be complaining, right? -- it's all because my feeble intellect has prevented me from understanding the EVE learning curve. Lovely.
As an argument, it's just a few notches above (and probably the heir to) "you must suck at PvP". You know how I invariably answer that one? "Yeah, I probably would if I bothered to try, but what is it to you?" Or, if it's yet too sophisticated, "Okay, I suck, so what?" If that matters all that much to you, have your PvP skills inscribed on your headstone to see if anyone cares. Sure, it might get boring if you lose all the time, especially if you're supposed to grind to replace your losses (I'm expecting a few comments on weeding out the weak, etc.), but you're not even inquiring as to whether I'm into PvP in the first place, which I might be in some contexts but not here. In EVE, I've never strayed from highsec; never encountered PvP; never got ganked. But when I see people taking pride in such gratuitous ganking, how can I not raise an eyebrow?
You're probably right on one thing, and it is that EVE is not my type of game; I was complaining about how scamming was morally unacceptable and ganking pretty much the same, long before I picked up the game, but I tried it anyway, because I thought there would be more to it. But there isn't. PvE is a chore, and the missions are the most cookie-cutter I've encountered anywhere. Mining is fun for a while, then it gets repetitive. The economy revolves so much around tiers that it's also a waste of time at entry level. You know what I was thinking when I saw what portion of the game was available to me in Empire space? "This game is taking me for a fool." Not just the players, the designers as well. I remember reading someone's post about how EVE's entire marketing campaign was aimed at attracting victims rather than players, and the game itself confirms that. The beginner game -- you know, the one to which I should be confined for six months according to this thread -- is unrelieved boredom, as though they're almost pushing me into lowsec or even lower. But if players here think you don't belong in those areas for the first half-year of play, why is the game so eager to send you there? To be someone else's victim.
So you see, you could blame me for my lack of knowledge of the intricacies of starbase management, and I wouldn't care, because it's an aspect of gameplay which I would never expect to see anyway, let alone benefit from knowing about. For that matter, I was open-minded about EVE for maybe two weeks, until I started delving into information about the game. I always asked myself, "do I realistically have a chance to ever get to enjoy this aspect of the game?" Most of the answers were in the negative. Don't get me wrong, I like learning for learning's sake, but I won't do that for a game, where every detail has a primarily utilitarian underpinning. I read about what affects or risks affecting me; the rest is just filler, and there is nothing preventing me from returning to it if I need it. So I saw how limited my options were, and this feeling was shared by my friends, so we decided to seek out another corporation we could join, but only loser corporations have open recruitment policies, presumably because the rest of them were either too paranoid or too elitist to recruit openly. And really, if we were to join a loser corporation anyway, why not stick with our own? Finally, we agreed it was pointless and decided not to renew, and I'm the last one left because I bought the boxed edition instead of the download.
EVE doesn't even require an effort to reach one's goals, despite your claims. Otherwise, why would they resort to a static skill-levelling system that does not go faster if I'm actually logged in and performing actions? It also means that I can't even narrow the gap with players who have been at this game for five years. I'm all for long-term progression (as opposed to reaching the endgame in two months), but not when the oldtimers get a perpetual advantage because of it.
If my assumptions are invalid, correct them, something which you never bothered to do. I for one would love to be reassured that the Something Awful hyenas are not really running EVE, that the game isn't a haven for grief-dispensing trash-talkers who quickly justify their attitude by saying how smart they think they are, or that the chunk of players who matter haven't been a bunch of proud elitists since 2004.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Vetarnias, my first thoughts are this is simply not a game you want to play but I am curious about a few things and thought I would share some of my experiences. At the moment I am rolling around to almost 4 years of continuous subscription. That being said, I get burn out and play more or less depending but I always come back.
I also have never played any other MMORPG, I have done a trail or so, but I can't get into them. What holds me in EVE is simply the single server philosophy. This structure allows for a complex interplay of PvP and the economy to develop, as well as allowing for large scale territorial war. It also ties well with roleplaying which i like.
I find that open ended structure very appealing. Also, if you want to learn to enjoy EVE, you must accept the fact that the game is centered around PvP. That even mining is a PvP activity as you are taking minerals that someone else may have wanted let alone the influence on the market.
What I don't know is what you like in a MMORPG.
this will be a killer, if you start with the assumption you can't get there and there is no reason to try then you will fail.
During the time i have played i have PvP'd from t1 frigs through to dreadnaughts. I have mission ground lvl4s, taken part in territorial warfare, both as an industrialist, and as a diplomat. I have worked within a tight knit corp that does industry. I have engaged in market manipulation and profiteering. High sec semi-afk mining. And there is still so much i haven't done.
Is some of the time scale for getting this stuff going take long time to develope? well yes, it is. But i live by one rule, if it stops being fun today, stop doing it. The journey is more than the achievement. The journey must be fun. The challenge is to make that so.
So, what goal would you like to have and how can it be fun getting there?
So every corporation is either a looser corp or too elitist? This will be another assumption that will prevennt you from playing. You simply won't find a good corp as you already know they are all shit.
What do you actually want from a corp? Write down the points one at a time and then prioritize them. Now,go looking. EVE is a big game and there are bound to be people doing stuff that will fit in with your list as long as the points are not intrinsicly contradictory (No PvP, but holding territory in null sec) and you can make some compromises.
A point about the elitism, for some collective tasks in the game, you just need the skills to be in place. Sucks, but it is true (170km sniper battleships anyone?). The thing is, you can choose not to play the game in those collective tasks.
You have stated that there is a lot of stuff you never wanted to do but that you want to be able to catch up to those that can do those all things. (or at least that is what it seems like to me)
At the core of the never catch up argument is the issue of progression and goals. So if you pick up a goal, and specialize, you can actually catch up to and in most cases exceed what the vets can can do in that one area. It is the way the skill system works, it has achievable level caps.
So what goal do you want for yourself? What do you want to excel at?
If that goal is "Jack of all trades" then expect a long subscription period.
You are useless for pvp it is correct .
No he is not useless, ofcourse a new player is not useless. The poster is only assuming that, as there are corporations that have higher demands than what he can fulfill.
"What lies out of my reach, noone else shall have." Sums it up pretty much.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
so do you in fact believe that corps are not dependant on there members? a corp "invests" in you by allowing you to reap the rewards that the corp worked to get , in turn you`re expected to work for the corp aswell...
You think a serious self-respecting corp can affoard to just hire every and any noob out there that may or may not be around in 6 months? Let me try to put it like this : Corp leadership needs to have at least a rough estimate of what the corp is capable of industrialy/military wise , etc , in order to set achievable goals for the corp . And it`s very helpful to know those "assets" (members) are reliable and stable , you dont want to move to a 0.0 alliance and find out that 6 months later as you settle in , half your members go away to play WoW
Sure , there are plenty of corps who are just glad to tag everyone along, but , then you cant expect much from those corps either .
A more practical answer : Why would a serious corp let you in , and thus allow you to better income/cheaper ships/services/pvp etc,etc (that is investing in you , other members of the corp invest time to make your eve time more profitable/fun/whatever), if you approach with that sort of attitude?Most serious corps dont tend to artificialy inflate membership , even if sometimes your lousy 10% tax may come in handy , if you`re still not worth it.
As for decision making : Centralized decizion making (corp`s inner sanctum as you put it) works best because . period . Be sure though , there is a sever lack of people able to take those kind of tasks and actually be good at them...so if you feel you have what it takes...give it a shot. Alltough you`ll most likely fail at it if you keep going the "hell it`s just a game , 6 months is a long time "way
@ Vetarnias:
Where to start?
First: you can go through EvE without ever firing a single shot at another player , true . But if you are risk-adverse (carebear) , then EvE definately is the wrong game for you.
"But when I see people taking pride in such gratuitous ganking, how can I not raise an eyebrow?"
Well , gratious ganking as you put is is rarely "gratious" .
-It can be for profit (mabe it drops something nice...just like when you kill a mob in any other game) ,
-For safety a lot of the times (in lowsec or 0.0 , unless he`s "blue"(ally) , you MUST assume he will shoot at you if you dont shoot at him . Expanding on this, even if at the point of the encounter , he poses no threat as you have superior numbers/firepower , maybe in the next half-hour he will kill some undefended hauler from your alliance , or even you if he deems he can win at that point (the skill in eve doesnt mean twitch , thanks god , it`s ussualy about engaging under YOUR terms , and forcing an engagement where YOU have AS MUCH AS POSIBLE a chanche to win . Overkill works just fine)
Basicaly , in most cases , if he isnt a friend he`s a potential enemy , better safe then sorry . And yes , even the 10 days old character may be a spy/scout/cyno alt whatever .
"EVE doesn't even require an effort to reach one's goals, despite your claims. Otherwise, why would they resort to a static skill-levelling system that does not go faster if I'm actually logged in and performing actions? It also means that I can't even narrow the gap with players who have been at this game for five years. I'm all for long-term progression (as opposed to reaching the endgame in two months), but not when the oldtimers get a perpetual advantage because of it."
Well that all depends on what your goal is . But I found out that noobs who resort to the gap argument and the "static skill system " one are never worth bothering with , they clearly miss the point of this game. If your goal is only skillpoints , then well...I`m glad you`re leaving.
"The beginner game -- you know, the one to which I should be confined for six months according to this thread -- is unrelieved boredom, as though they're almost pushing me into lowsec or even lower. But if players here think you don't belong in those areas for the first half-year of play, why is the game so eager to send you there? To be someone else's victim."
I was in 0.0 after my first month of play . My storry is a silly one , but here it goes : I decided that "do-gooders , kill badies , missions in highsec were laaaame , and as i have a thing for necromancer/zombie/undead whatever in RPG`s , I decided to go out to 0.0 and start working for sansha`s nation. I knew little about 0.0 , but hey , i packed my cruiser with ammo and whatnot , and headed out . Made some isk on the way ratting , dodged some locals who , after a while , i realized were probably more scared of me then i wasof them , and eventually ran into a warp bubble...
My heart stoped for a few seconds...the cruiser held most of my hard-earned junk...and "you cant warp" message...and...and i took a deep breath , lit a cig , and...wow i was still alive...i started looking around and i realized some guys were shooting some other guys..i was just in there by accident . (an IAC/TCF gang killing off some MC back in 2007) So...dumb old me felt really heroic , and i decided to help (what did i know) the amarr ship , as it was ..well..i was amarr . Ofc , after TCF won , they poded me aswell without hesitation.
Back in empire and 4 beers later , i convoed the guy who poded me , and he was surprizingly friendly , explained how things work , what a bubble , who they were fighting , why they killed me...and after i expressed significant interest in 0.0 teritorial warfare , I eventually ended up next week in IAC , loosing ships like an idiot but having a blast , either defending "home" or attacking NOL. Noone ever pointed me out for not having enough sp . Most people were eager to answer my noobish questions
At this point , i ocassionaly suicide gank in empire , end ever so often , i get a decent convo asking me why/how/how much profit and such . I gladly answer on the same tone . Well then again , I`m rich enough to affoard an odd 100m to keep griefing the assholes that resort to flaming/insulting/whining. See , after 2 years , I managed to reach my initial goal of missioning for sansha nation .
Entering my current corp wasnt easy , as i`m not a great PvP`er , i die more often then not and I`m not all that eager to run around 1000 jumps for a kill , the kill itsself doesnt interest me that much , i`m kinda greedy like that and i`d rather make another 100m in that hour instead of hunting a ceptor...but if that ceptor is replaced by 20 HACS i`m among the first to rush out and meet them , and ussualy in expensive ships...
I`m too much of a noob to assume fleet command , or such things , though i`ve been offered the job every now and then , i know my current limits .
Conclusion : What to you seems griefing and ganking , to others it may simply be defensive/offensive or farming . And yes , through my EvE time , i`ve been in several goon (Something Awfull) fleets , and they SUCK!!! . But hey , it only took me two years to get settled in sansha land with 9.8 faction standing and my little personal nightmare fleet....Seeing goonswarm fall and burn , and all of there members reduced to noobships should be well achievable in another 2 years...why not? The only thing limiting in EvE is YOURSELF!
Question : Scamming is despicable and moraly wrong (who`s morals? feels like arguing with a theist nut) right? But If you would work for a year , geting a decent killboard to show off or hell , making yourself known as a good inventor/trader/whatever , geting a SA forum account and living through that for a year...and eventually get IN gs and IN a position to finish them off...would you?
If you still answer "no" based on your set of morals : If your alliance you spent years helping to build and grow would be killed off in one blow by a despicable goon traitor , and you could , at a point in the future , return the favor in some way...would you?
You know, I say: Only limitation in EVE is you.
Only dumb people say they don't need to learn...
I am not here to correct your invalid assumption, it is your job to do the research or gain experience and THEN ask questions about things you need to explain.
Instead you are ranting about things you have no knowledge or experience. All you have done was to read some reviews(oh boy, taking Yahtzee as reference...) and parroting here what you have read. The writers were probably as bright as you(oh boy, skill system favouring older players...).
Same as in RL, EVE rewards those who help themself, but this is not your case, you expect to be feeded.
This is EVE:
I can't even express how well you put it, nurgles.
Nailed it.
I was lucky to meet some PVPers that were just a month into the game when I was driving a T1 frigate. I joined their little corporation and while the rest of the newbies were alt tabbing while mining, I was out killing Cruisers with our little squad chilling in Ventrilo and having a good time. I enjoyed my role in our operation so much that I set EVEmon up for T2 Assault Frigates which wouldn't finish until the following month. I didn't care because every time I got on, we would go flying around looking for people to chase down. While it would be nice to equip T2 ammo and pilot an Assault Frigate, I didn't spend my time fantasizing about driving one and bitching that real-time skill training sucked.
It's sad that new players all don't get to experience this.
Depending on the quality of the system you are allowed access to, you can make easily 100 million a day from ratting alone without even touching the wrecks or any loot or salvage.