Actually, I blame the public. The public forced the Police to find a way to resolve confrontation without threat of deadly force. But instead what they got was a shift in the escalation of force. Police found that a Tazer was the most efficient means to make people comply, more so than using a gun. People no longer fear the gun in an officer's hands, because they believe the officer won't use it.
So, why was it different before? The officers had to be able to handle confrontations differently. They had to be able to handle civilians with dialog, all the way up to use of deadly force. But now they have dialog for anyone they deem "reasonable" but if they get frustrated, they have 2 more options for compliance before reaching for the gun. And because the Tazer is non-fatal to most of it's (originally) intended targets, Police use it differently than they used to use the threat of deadly force.
Before you guys go off all half-cocked on me though, I'm not saying things were "better" when there was no means to escalate force. I'm saying the public forced the Police this route and it was a bad choice in it's current configuration.
I fully support their original intended use, which is to stop violence or to prevent an officer from reaching for his gun. However, they hardly ever use it like this. They started using it for "people who asks questions" or "don't comply". That is incredibly loose bounds for discharging a tazer.
They can basically say.. okay, he's being, a little unruly.. fuck it.. Taze Taze.
It was supposed to be.. "I might have to shoot this guy, I'll use the tazer first." not.. "Sir, shut the fuck up, don't ask any questions, do as I say."
From what I could find there is 581,888 law enforcement officers in the United states. Assuming you get a tazer story atmost once a week (probably more likely to be bi-weekly) over the course of a year, you get 52 cases. So you're looking at 0.0089% of police are involved in this highly publicized taser abuse.
Its a terrible world we're now living in when less than a hundredth of a percent of the police force is overracting.
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
From what I could find there is 581,888 law enforcement officers in the United states. Assuming you get a tazer story atmost once a week (probably more likely to be bi-weekly) over the course of a year, you get 52 cases. So you're looking at 0.0089% of police are involved in this highly publicized taser abuse.
Its a terrible world we're now living in when less than a hundredth of a percent of the police force is overracting.
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
From what I could find there is 581,888 law enforcement officers in the United states. Assuming you get a tazer story atmost once a week (probably more likely to be bi-weekly) over the course of a year, you get 52 cases. So you're looking at 0.0089% of police are involved in this highly publicized taser abuse.
Its a terrible world we're now living in when less than a hundredth of a percent of the police force is overracting.
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
not to take a side but i was at a 30 person concert in a farily small town and a guy was urinating on the wall. BIcycle cop pulls up chases him tackles him then tazed him while he was on the ground. I mean if he had done before tackling him ok... but just seemed unneccessary to me. I wished they had tazed some of the protesting hippies after that though.
From what I could find there is 581,888 law enforcement officers in the United states. Assuming you get a tazer story atmost once a week (probably more likely to be bi-weekly) over the course of a year, you get 52 cases. So you're looking at 0.0089% of police are involved in this highly publicized taser abuse.
Its a terrible world we're now living in when less than a hundredth of a percent of the police force is overracting.
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
From what I could find there is 581,888 law enforcement officers in the United states. Assuming you get a tazer story atmost once a week (probably more likely to be bi-weekly) over the course of a year, you get 52 cases. So you're looking at 0.0089% of police are involved in this highly publicized taser abuse.
Its a terrible world we're now living in when less than a hundredth of a percent of the police force is overracting.
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
You're playing far to into how effective you think the media is as a means of conveying any meaningful measure of statistics. How many cases of taser use are there? Well you wouldn't know because the media is all there is? The fact is it only gets published if the people who are abused have the access to the attorneys who can make enough noise to have any incriminating evidence made public or it is a means of convincing you that abuse is minimal (i.e. this is an off-hand case and look it is being dealt with).
How many taser incidents are there? How many taser abuse incidents are there? How many taser abuse cases get resolved before they even have a chance to get to a journalist? You probably wouldn't know. There was a study that followed 1000 cases of taser use by only 6 law enforcement agencies. That right there more than blows your numbers. There are maybe 25-50 cases that make the national and sometimes international scene, sure but that doesn't say anything on the amount that it actually occurs.
This is only an aside anyway, all stories like this suggest and numbers show is that the tasers are not being used for protection or saftey but rather a means to force compliance regardless of the merits of the situation. In other words, a shoot first ask questions later manner which should strike anyone as alarming and questionable.
Let me rephrase your argument and see if you still agree:
The USSR under Stalin killed 15,000,000 people. But that is only 1 country, there are ~200 countries so only 0.5% of countries have killed 15,000,000 people. So it is a terrible world we live in where only 0.5% of countries commit genocide or overreact.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
You're playing far to into how effective you think the media is as a means of conveying any meaningful measure of statistics. How many cases of taser use are there? Well you wouldn't know because the media is all there is? The fact is it only gets published if the people who are abused have the access to the attorneys who can make enough noise to have any incriminating evidence made public or it is a means of convincing you that abuse is minimal (i.e. this is an off-hand case and look it is being dealt with).
How many taser incidents are there? How many taser abuse incidents are there? How many taser abuse cases get resolved before they even have a chance to get to a journalist? You probably wouldn't know. There was a study that followed 1000 cases of taser use by only 6 law enforcement agencies. That right there more than blows your numbers. There are maybe 25-50 cases that make the national and sometimes international scene, sure but that doesn't say anything on the amount that it actually occurs.
This is only an aside anyway, all stories like this suggest and numbers show is that the tasers are not being used for protection or saftey but rather a means to force compliance regardless of the merits of the situation. In other words, a shoot first ask questions later manner which should strike anyone as alarming and questionable.
Let me rephrase your argument and see if you still agree:
The USSR under Stalin killed 15,000,000 people. But that is only 1 country, there are ~200 countries so only 0.5% of countries have killed 15,000,000 people. So it is a terrible world we live in where only 0.5% of countries commit genocide or overreact.
I would disagree about the amount reported by the media. I would be more inclined to say the media would jump on any story where somebody claimed tazer abuse because it is SUCH a hot topic right now... its garunteed viewers.
If you want to assume that its worse than the news makes it out to be could you supply me with a quantitative measure of the number of abuses?
You can say its bad; but your "take on the situation" means absolutly nothing to anybody looking for a quantitative evaluation of the situation.
And you example of stalin is not a rephrase of my argument its a reductio ad absurdem. My statistic was #of violent police reports per year/ number of police.
This gets you the percent of police who would be involved in a violent tazering incident over the course of a year assuming no repeats.
What you did was take the number of countries that killed 15 million people and divided it by how many countries there are.
Thus finding the percentage of countries that kill 15 million people.
less than 0.01% of police are involved in tazering would be a relivant statistic when talking about the abuse of tazers.
0.5% of countries commit genocide by killing 15,000,000 people really doens't do anything for any argument. Its obvious even 0.0001% of countries doing that is wrong; You can't just whittle my argument down to using the divide button on the calculator then make up some rediculous example of doing the same thing and call them the same.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
You're playing far to into how effective you think the media is as a means of conveying any meaningful measure of statistics. How many cases of taser use are there? Well you wouldn't know because the media is all there is? The fact is it only gets published if the people who are abused have the access to the attorneys who can make enough noise to have any incriminating evidence made public or it is a means of convincing you that abuse is minimal (i.e. this is an off-hand case and look it is being dealt with).
How many taser incidents are there? How many taser abuse incidents are there? How many taser abuse cases get resolved before they even have a chance to get to a journalist? You probably wouldn't know. There was a study that followed 1000 cases of taser use by only 6 law enforcement agencies. That right there more than blows your numbers. There are maybe 25-50 cases that make the national and sometimes international scene, sure but that doesn't say anything on the amount that it actually occurs.
This is only an aside anyway, all stories like this suggest and numbers show is that the tasers are not being used for protection or saftey but rather a means to force compliance regardless of the merits of the situation. In other words, a shoot first ask questions later manner which should strike anyone as alarming and questionable.
Let me rephrase your argument and see if you still agree:
The USSR under Stalin killed 15,000,000 people. But that is only 1 country, there are ~200 countries so only 0.5% of countries have killed 15,000,000 people. So it is a terrible world we live in where only 0.5% of countries commit genocide or overreact.
I would disagree about the amount reported by the media. I would be more inclined to say the media would jump on any story where somebody claimed tazer abuse because it is SUCH a hot topic right now... its garunteed viewers.
If you want to assume that its worse than the news makes it out to be could you supply me with a quantitative measure of the number of abuses?
You can say its bad; but your "take on the situation" means absolutly nothing to anybody looking for a quantitative evaluation of the situation.
And you example of stalin is not a rephrase of my argument its a reductio ad absurdem. My statistic was #of violent police reports per year/ number of police.
This gets you the percent of police who would be involved in a violent tazering incident over the course of a year assuming no repeats.
What you did was take the number of countries that killed 15 million people and divided it by how many countries there are.
Thus finding the percentage of countries that kill 15 million people.
less than 0.01% of police are involved in tazering would be a relivant statistic when talking about the abuse of tazers.
0.5% of countries commit genocide by killing 15,000,000 people really doens't do anything for any argument. Its obvious even 0.0001% of countries doing that is wrong; You can't just whittle my argument down to using the divide button on the calculator then make up some rediculous example of doing the same thing and call them the same.
I think you're being quite naive on part of media coverage: how many murders, shootings, robberies every day that go unreported? Those are all considerably large stories but you only hear of the major incidents. Can you conclude from that ONLY those incidents that reported are the ones that occur? Of course not and similarly by the same token using (let me appropriately phrase your stat here:) #of violent taser reports IN THE MEDIA in a year / number of police.
I also not saying it is any worse than the media says, I'm saying the numbers you used, based on media reports, is not an accurate measure of the actual number of cases there are and using the number of reports in the media as a measure of how small the problem of the actual number of reports including those not in the media is is entirely baseless and a fallacy. In other words using stats derived from media reports to say it is a problem, or not a problem is inconsistent.
I think if you used the term "reductio ad absurdum" you would be fully aware that isn't a fallacy and is actually a well founded argument against your point, calling it what it isn't doesn't address it either.
Let me make it more clear for you:
# of police reports in the media of taser abuse in a year in the US = (by your estimate) 52 | # of countries (in the world) that have had genocide of over 15,000,000 people in 100 years = 1
# of police in the US = 581,888 | # of countries in the world = ~200 (I rounded from 195 to make the math slightly cleaner)
x1/x2 = .01% | .5%
Thus you found the percentage of police officers who abuse tasers and I found the percent of countries that commit genocide with over 15,000,000 victims.
You conclude it is not a problem that police abuse tasers because few do, I conclude countries that commit genocide of 15,000,000 or more is not a problem because few do.
Just because it is a small number doesn't disqualify the wrong they did, which you seemed to find okay against Stalin but not against the police. Why?
In summary: the numbers you used were baseless and fallacious to begin with and the conclusion you drew from your numbers was equally, if not greater in magnitude, fallacious.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
From what I could find there is 581,888 law enforcement officers in the United states. Assuming you get a tazer story atmost once a week (probably more likely to be bi-weekly) over the course of a year, you get 52 cases. So you're looking at 0.0089% of police are involved in this highly publicized taser abuse.
Its a terrible world we're now living in when less than a hundredth of a percent of the police force is overracting.
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
Oh please, cry me a river. Don't join the police force if you're afraid of being a cop. There is absolutely no excuse, ever.
"Why did he taser him 19 times and beat him?" "Because he risks his life every day." ... right.
My earlier posts were meant to not just support a system where police are held accountable, but not having everyone throwing the baby out with the bathwater, cops are misusing tasers, when in actuality only "some" cops are. Support of law enforcement and the tough jobs that they do everyday is not a blanket support of those officers that choose to misuse their authority. Likewise, it would be unfair to condemn police officers for the actions of the few; FYI Bureau of Justice Statistics reported in Sept '04 that there were 731,903 sworn state/local law enforcement officers and their numbers have been growning progressively with successive years. I think OP the problem, as I see it, with you original post is that you let us all know how you are feeling about your belief that the police are out of control with their decision to use tasers, but offer no constructive solutions... it would have been helpful if you had gone a step further and offered some potential suggestions beyond the protocols currently in place in law enforcement agencies across the country to deal with reported police misuse of authority(tasers). Then again I could have missed the whole point of your post and all you wanted to do was create a thread where folks can bitch about rampant police brutaility and misuse of tasers... The May 2009report is worth a look.
Well, if you're going to deconstruct this whole thread into "where folks can bitch" and "provide no solutions", maybe you ought to direct that statement inward as well. Considering tasers don't seem to be curtailing crime or preventing much of anything, why do you "bitch" about people questioning their methods? Do you have an alternative solution?
More control and authoritarian measures is not the answer. If you had an ounce of logic, you would realize this. When I say "you", I mean all authoritarians in general.
It was not my intention to "deconstruct" your thread, but merely to clarify that if it was your intenetion to just bitch then I missed that point, no more. By your response I can't help but think that you dismissed everything from my post except the last and even that you misinterperted.
I attached the 2009 report not to just highlight the number of sworn officers in the US but also found the statistics about the decrease in harm to law enforcement officers very enlightening, regardless of the local it seems that a decrease in injuries to officers has increased upwards to 70% in incidents where force was needed. I find this important when we are talking about the use of tasers by police officers there is a benefit. Also, I have said this before, it is unfair to throw law enforcement under the bus based on the actions of a minority.
I have chosen not to offer any solutions as I still remain confident that each state typically has mechanisims in place investigate reported misuse of any police force not just taser abuse. Every story of police brutality I have ever seen has involved an investigation into the officer(s) actions. We as citizens, if we are concerned with rising use of tasers, should bring this concern to the attention of lawmakers to address potential changes or development of oversight of these incidents. I know in my state the DA conducts any investigation concerning incients of reported police brutality and it is not left to the descretion of the law enforcement agency to judge the actions of their own.
My 2 cents on the media and reporting incidents of police misuse of force - Joe citzen does not need an attorney to call the local news station, state official or governor; at least very few do in my state I have not seen any constuctive solutions, the blog is a nice idea - good luck with that, put forth on this thread to address the problem; and while I believe it was not your intention OP to create a "bitch" thread I think thats what it has/will evolve to as anyone with axe to grind will post less then constructive responses...
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day... I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
Oh please, cry me a river. Don't join the police force if you're afraid of being a cop. There is absolutely no excuse, ever.
"Why did he taser him 19 times and beat him?" "Because he risks his life every day." ... right.
You use an extreme case to make your point. How about using something more down to earth, an intoxicated man will not comply with multiple requests to get down on the ground and comes at an officer... or man with hand in his pockets will not take them out when instructed... or individual fails to follow instructions on a routine traffic stop... all of which are very real incidents where officers have been seriously injured or killed in the line of duty.
I find your callous response very telling of our society opinion of law enforcement and how it can be fueled directly by the "media hype"! I have an idea... How about you try being a cop for a year in one of our nations criminal hot spots, then get back to us. It is so easy for one to judge the actions of others when we have not lived or appreciate what it is that they do.
Now quickly, as I have already said, I don't think this excuses police use of excessive force, but you will have a new appreciation for what they deal with every day and a new respect for those that desipte this never misuse their authority, which is the vast majority of law enforcement! Which has been my position throughout my posts.
From what I could find there is 581,888 law enforcement officers in the United states. Assuming you get a tazer story atmost once a week (probably more likely to be bi-weekly) over the course of a year, you get 52 cases. So you're looking at 0.0089% of police are involved in this highly publicized taser abuse.
Its a terrible world we're now living in when less than a hundredth of a percent of the police force is overracting.
Hi, bullshit.
At last measure, 305 million people were living in the USA. At last measure, 16,204 murders were committed. That means roughly 0.0053% of the people will be murdered in a given year.
Given your statistics, a person is more likely to get tazed by a rogue cop than be murdered by another resident. For every 53 murders, 89 people will be the victims of police tazer abuse. And as your statistics only count "highly publicized" tazer abuse, what about all the cases that go unpublicized?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Comments
Sigh...
I guess this is the day I bring myself to the level of starting a blog. I seriously can't find a Police Taser-Abuse database associated by date.
Looks like I'll be a blogger now.
There, I've started a blog to keep track of all the taser-abuse incidents from now on. Going to start counting...
taserabuse.wordpress.com
It's obviously a work-in-progress but will be dense soon.
Actually, I blame the public. The public forced the Police to find a way to resolve confrontation without threat of deadly force. But instead what they got was a shift in the escalation of force. Police found that a Tazer was the most efficient means to make people comply, more so than using a gun. People no longer fear the gun in an officer's hands, because they believe the officer won't use it.
So, why was it different before? The officers had to be able to handle confrontations differently. They had to be able to handle civilians with dialog, all the way up to use of deadly force. But now they have dialog for anyone they deem "reasonable" but if they get frustrated, they have 2 more options for compliance before reaching for the gun. And because the Tazer is non-fatal to most of it's (originally) intended targets, Police use it differently than they used to use the threat of deadly force.
Before you guys go off all half-cocked on me though, I'm not saying things were "better" when there was no means to escalate force. I'm saying the public forced the Police this route and it was a bad choice in it's current configuration.
I fully support their original intended use, which is to stop violence or to prevent an officer from reaching for his gun. However, they hardly ever use it like this. They started using it for "people who asks questions" or "don't comply". That is incredibly loose bounds for discharging a tazer.
They can basically say.. okay, he's being, a little unruly.. fuck it.. Taze Taze.
It was supposed to be.. "I might have to shoot this guy, I'll use the tazer first." not.. "Sir, shut the fuck up, don't ask any questions, do as I say."
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
not to take a side but i was at a 30 person concert in a farily small town and a guy was urinating on the wall. BIcycle cop pulls up chases him tackles him then tazed him while he was on the ground. I mean if he had done before tackling him ok... but just seemed unneccessary to me. I wished they had tazed some of the protesting hippies after that though.
So this is the world's greatest country? The country of freedom? The country of free speech?
Just kidding. *cough* =P
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
You're playing far to into how effective you think the media is as a means of conveying any meaningful measure of statistics. How many cases of taser use are there? Well you wouldn't know because the media is all there is? The fact is it only gets published if the people who are abused have the access to the attorneys who can make enough noise to have any incriminating evidence made public or it is a means of convincing you that abuse is minimal (i.e. this is an off-hand case and look it is being dealt with).
How many taser incidents are there? How many taser abuse incidents are there? How many taser abuse cases get resolved before they even have a chance to get to a journalist? You probably wouldn't know. There was a study that followed 1000 cases of taser use by only 6 law enforcement agencies. That right there more than blows your numbers. There are maybe 25-50 cases that make the national and sometimes international scene, sure but that doesn't say anything on the amount that it actually occurs.
This is only an aside anyway, all stories like this suggest and numbers show is that the tasers are not being used for protection or saftey but rather a means to force compliance regardless of the merits of the situation. In other words, a shoot first ask questions later manner which should strike anyone as alarming and questionable.
Let me rephrase your argument and see if you still agree:
The USSR under Stalin killed 15,000,000 people. But that is only 1 country, there are ~200 countries so only 0.5% of countries have killed 15,000,000 people. So it is a terrible world we live in where only 0.5% of countries commit genocide or overreact.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
You're playing far to into how effective you think the media is as a means of conveying any meaningful measure of statistics. How many cases of taser use are there? Well you wouldn't know because the media is all there is? The fact is it only gets published if the people who are abused have the access to the attorneys who can make enough noise to have any incriminating evidence made public or it is a means of convincing you that abuse is minimal (i.e. this is an off-hand case and look it is being dealt with).
How many taser incidents are there? How many taser abuse incidents are there? How many taser abuse cases get resolved before they even have a chance to get to a journalist? You probably wouldn't know. There was a study that followed 1000 cases of taser use by only 6 law enforcement agencies. That right there more than blows your numbers. There are maybe 25-50 cases that make the national and sometimes international scene, sure but that doesn't say anything on the amount that it actually occurs.
This is only an aside anyway, all stories like this suggest and numbers show is that the tasers are not being used for protection or saftey but rather a means to force compliance regardless of the merits of the situation. In other words, a shoot first ask questions later manner which should strike anyone as alarming and questionable.
Let me rephrase your argument and see if you still agree:
The USSR under Stalin killed 15,000,000 people. But that is only 1 country, there are ~200 countries so only 0.5% of countries have killed 15,000,000 people. So it is a terrible world we live in where only 0.5% of countries commit genocide or overreact.
I would disagree about the amount reported by the media. I would be more inclined to say the media would jump on any story where somebody claimed tazer abuse because it is SUCH a hot topic right now... its garunteed viewers.
If you want to assume that its worse than the news makes it out to be could you supply me with a quantitative measure of the number of abuses?
You can say its bad; but your "take on the situation" means absolutly nothing to anybody looking for a quantitative evaluation of the situation.
And you example of stalin is not a rephrase of my argument its a reductio ad absurdem. My statistic was #of violent police reports per year/ number of police.
This gets you the percent of police who would be involved in a violent tazering incident over the course of a year assuming no repeats.
What you did was take the number of countries that killed 15 million people and divided it by how many countries there are.
Thus finding the percentage of countries that kill 15 million people.
less than 0.01% of police are involved in tazering would be a relivant statistic when talking about the abuse of tazers.
0.5% of countries commit genocide by killing 15,000,000 people really doens't do anything for any argument. Its obvious even 0.0001% of countries doing that is wrong; You can't just whittle my argument down to using the divide button on the calculator then make up some rediculous example of doing the same thing and call them the same.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
You're playing far to into how effective you think the media is as a means of conveying any meaningful measure of statistics. How many cases of taser use are there? Well you wouldn't know because the media is all there is? The fact is it only gets published if the people who are abused have the access to the attorneys who can make enough noise to have any incriminating evidence made public or it is a means of convincing you that abuse is minimal (i.e. this is an off-hand case and look it is being dealt with).
How many taser incidents are there? How many taser abuse incidents are there? How many taser abuse cases get resolved before they even have a chance to get to a journalist? You probably wouldn't know. There was a study that followed 1000 cases of taser use by only 6 law enforcement agencies. That right there more than blows your numbers. There are maybe 25-50 cases that make the national and sometimes international scene, sure but that doesn't say anything on the amount that it actually occurs.
This is only an aside anyway, all stories like this suggest and numbers show is that the tasers are not being used for protection or saftey but rather a means to force compliance regardless of the merits of the situation. In other words, a shoot first ask questions later manner which should strike anyone as alarming and questionable.
Let me rephrase your argument and see if you still agree:
The USSR under Stalin killed 15,000,000 people. But that is only 1 country, there are ~200 countries so only 0.5% of countries have killed 15,000,000 people. So it is a terrible world we live in where only 0.5% of countries commit genocide or overreact.
I would disagree about the amount reported by the media. I would be more inclined to say the media would jump on any story where somebody claimed tazer abuse because it is SUCH a hot topic right now... its garunteed viewers.
If you want to assume that its worse than the news makes it out to be could you supply me with a quantitative measure of the number of abuses?
You can say its bad; but your "take on the situation" means absolutly nothing to anybody looking for a quantitative evaluation of the situation.
And you example of stalin is not a rephrase of my argument its a reductio ad absurdem. My statistic was #of violent police reports per year/ number of police.
This gets you the percent of police who would be involved in a violent tazering incident over the course of a year assuming no repeats.
What you did was take the number of countries that killed 15 million people and divided it by how many countries there are.
Thus finding the percentage of countries that kill 15 million people.
less than 0.01% of police are involved in tazering would be a relivant statistic when talking about the abuse of tazers.
0.5% of countries commit genocide by killing 15,000,000 people really doens't do anything for any argument. Its obvious even 0.0001% of countries doing that is wrong; You can't just whittle my argument down to using the divide button on the calculator then make up some rediculous example of doing the same thing and call them the same.
I think you're being quite naive on part of media coverage: how many murders, shootings, robberies every day that go unreported? Those are all considerably large stories but you only hear of the major incidents. Can you conclude from that ONLY those incidents that reported are the ones that occur? Of course not and similarly by the same token using (let me appropriately phrase your stat here:) #of violent taser reports IN THE MEDIA in a year / number of police.
I also not saying it is any worse than the media says, I'm saying the numbers you used, based on media reports, is not an accurate measure of the actual number of cases there are and using the number of reports in the media as a measure of how small the problem of the actual number of reports including those not in the media is is entirely baseless and a fallacy. In other words using stats derived from media reports to say it is a problem, or not a problem is inconsistent.
I think if you used the term "reductio ad absurdum" you would be fully aware that isn't a fallacy and is actually a well founded argument against your point, calling it what it isn't doesn't address it either.
Let me make it more clear for you:
# of police reports in the media of taser abuse in a year in the US = (by your estimate) 52 | # of countries (in the world) that have had genocide of over 15,000,000 people in 100 years = 1
# of police in the US = 581,888 | # of countries in the world = ~200 (I rounded from 195 to make the math slightly cleaner)
x1/x2 = .01% | .5%
Thus you found the percentage of police officers who abuse tasers and I found the percent of countries that commit genocide with over 15,000,000 victims.
You conclude it is not a problem that police abuse tasers because few do, I conclude countries that commit genocide of 15,000,000 or more is not a problem because few do.
Just because it is a small number doesn't disqualify the wrong they did, which you seemed to find okay against Stalin but not against the police. Why?
In summary: the numbers you used were baseless and fallacious to begin with and the conclusion you drew from your numbers was equally, if not greater in magnitude, fallacious.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man. -- Bertrand Russell
Hi, bullshit.
Did I forget to carry the 2? or would you like to supply me with alternative numbers.
Because basing your "numbers" off of how many tazer stories get published in the news, let alone the national news, is not even remotely appropriate measure for obtaining the statistics you're looking for. That's why it is bullshit, not to mention the completely made up numbers based on your own biases.
You really think your news would miss the opportunity to cover a tazer abuse story?
Its a ball part measure. Even given 10 times the numbers you still looking at less than 0.1% of the force being involved.
Which given the fact that they risk there lives at the job every day...
I just think you're playing faar to much into the media's hype.
Oh please, cry me a river. Don't join the police force if you're afraid of being a cop. There is absolutely no excuse, ever.
"Why did he taser him 19 times and beat him?" "Because he risks his life every day." ... right.
Well, if you're going to deconstruct this whole thread into "where folks can bitch" and "provide no solutions", maybe you ought to direct that statement inward as well. Considering tasers don't seem to be curtailing crime or preventing much of anything, why do you "bitch" about people questioning their methods? Do you have an alternative solution?
More control and authoritarian measures is not the answer. If you had an ounce of logic, you would realize this. When I say "you", I mean all authoritarians in general.
It was not my intention to "deconstruct" your thread, but merely to clarify that if it was your intenetion to just bitch then I missed that point, no more. By your response I can't help but think that you dismissed everything from my post except the last and even that you misinterperted.
I attached the 2009 report not to just highlight the number of sworn officers in the US but also found the statistics about the decrease in harm to law enforcement officers very enlightening, regardless of the local it seems that a decrease in injuries to officers has increased upwards to 70% in incidents where force was needed. I find this important when we are talking about the use of tasers by police officers there is a benefit. Also, I have said this before, it is unfair to throw law enforcement under the bus based on the actions of a minority.
I have chosen not to offer any solutions as I still remain confident that each state typically has mechanisims in place investigate reported misuse of any police force not just taser abuse. Every story of police brutality I have ever seen has involved an investigation into the officer(s) actions. We as citizens, if we are concerned with rising use of tasers, should bring this concern to the attention of lawmakers to address potential changes or development of oversight of these incidents. I know in my state the DA conducts any investigation concerning incients of reported police brutality and it is not left to the descretion of the law enforcement agency to judge the actions of their own.
My 2 cents on the media and reporting incidents of police misuse of force - Joe citzen does not need an attorney to call the local news station, state official or governor; at least very few do in my state I have not seen any constuctive solutions, the blog is a nice idea - good luck with that, put forth on this thread to address the problem; and while I believe it was not your intention OP to create a "bitch" thread I think thats what it has/will evolve to as anyone with axe to grind will post less then constructive responses...
edit: for a few typos
Oh please, cry me a river. Don't join the police force if you're afraid of being a cop. There is absolutely no excuse, ever.
"Why did he taser him 19 times and beat him?" "Because he risks his life every day." ... right.
You use an extreme case to make your point. How about using something more down to earth, an intoxicated man will not comply with multiple requests to get down on the ground and comes at an officer... or man with hand in his pockets will not take them out when instructed... or individual fails to follow instructions on a routine traffic stop... all of which are very real incidents where officers have been seriously injured or killed in the line of duty.
I find your callous response very telling of our society opinion of law enforcement and how it can be fueled directly by the "media hype"! I have an idea... How about you try being a cop for a year in one of our nations criminal hot spots, then get back to us. It is so easy for one to judge the actions of others when we have not lived or appreciate what it is that they do.
Now quickly, as I have already said, I don't think this excuses police use of excessive force, but you will have a new appreciation for what they deal with every day and a new respect for those that desipte this never misuse their authority, which is the vast majority of law enforcement! Which has been my position throughout my posts.
Hi, bullshit.
At last measure, 305 million people were living in the USA. At last measure, 16,204 murders were committed. That means roughly 0.0053% of the people will be murdered in a given year.
Given your statistics, a person is more likely to get tazed by a rogue cop than be murdered by another resident. For every 53 murders, 89 people will be the victims of police tazer abuse. And as your statistics only count "highly publicized" tazer abuse, what about all the cases that go unpublicized?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
The proper response from the Grandfather should of been "Don't Taze me, Bro". Everything would have been fine.
Which is much preferable to the other way round.