The answer to the main queston of this post " When did it become all about being the elitest?" that wold be from day one. Sorry to say this but I'm going to talk about WOW for one minent. The first day that I saw a 1st level character in SW asking for a hand out (a gold) from people, I know that that game had went to the birds. So that was the day that MMOs had had elitests. People willing to work for there gold and people asking for a handouts.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
I think a lot of what people describe as elitism actually stems from the ambiguous nature of character progression in current gear-based end games. There is nothing particularly elitist about a lvl 40 not wanting to group with a lvl 30...and in most cases the lvl 30 wouldn't even ask. Yet, if a level capped player only wants to play with players at a similar gear level it is considered elitist. The problem is that gear level is not as visible or clear-cut as character level which leads to bad feelings between players that simply don't occur between the aforementioned lvl 40 and lvl 30.
Interesting, how many games include a built-in damage parse(or heal parse)? Not many, I think. You might be on to something there. Perhaps in some games the difference between raid-geared and non-raid-geared isn't as large as rumors imply. Eliminate the rumors and eliminate the elitism?
What we NEED are new mechanics set up for games just so everyone can have the same level of experience, where the gameplay and level designs themselves are fun and enjoyable, and players can play for the experience itself, and not for the gear or any other e-peen booster that might drop. Think of a rollercoaster ride - people don't ride on them becuase they might get sometime afterwards - they ride on them beucase the ride itself is fun and thrilling.
Content only accessible depending on how much played time a toon has? That might draw people away from the level grind rush if they know they have to wait a certain amount of time regardless of level.
The answer to the main queston of this post " When did it become all about being the elitest?" that wold be from day one. Sorry to say this but I'm going to talk about WOW for one minent. The first day that I saw a 1st level character in SW asking for a hand out (a gold) from people, I know that that game had went to the birds. So that was the day that MMOs had had elitests. People willing to work for there gold and people asking for a handouts.
Good point, that someone has earned their rank doesn't imply that they must cater to people who haven't earned their rank. The asker can be viewed as an elitist if they demand compliance.
While I understand the OP's premise, I can't believe he is trying to pin the blame on soloers. In my experience, raiders and guilds are elitist central in MMO's, next to the elitist developers who cater to them of course.
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
Uh huh, just like in real life, people who are solo tend to behave better than those in groups. It's called Mob Mentality and is a factual phenomena. There are always exception to this rule, but any time you get large numbers of people together in a competitive atmosphere, such as raiding, you will find the lion's share of misbehavior.
True, plus you have to understand that RamenThief is still pissed that some random solo cleric who was walking by didn't automatically resurrect one of his characters because apparently, anyone who can do something for his character somehow owes it to him to do so. There's an awful lot of entitlement nonsense that goes on in these games, where people act like the world owes them a living, people owe it to them to group with them, resurrect them, buff them, etc.
It ain't necessarily so.
Ooohhh...someone here still carries a grudge.
You got the story wrong boyo. It wasn't me, it was someone else that didn't get ressed and got pissed as a result. I happened to see the whole situation unfold because merchants often traveled along that road....hahahaha....
But, in the end run, that situation showed me that when soloists attempt to solo inside a group-oriented (at the time) game, the results aren't neccessarily good.
Also, that soloist inside Silkroad Online was an elitist, so, I've witnessed first hand what happens when you encounter (or in my case, observe) a elitist soloist.
For early MMOs, a lot of players came from a very similar background. They were mostly geeks, and many had played other computer or tabletop games before.
For a modern game like WoW, the audience is much more diverse. People come from all different walks of life, are different ages, and have wildly differing attitudes. That means if you throw together a random group of 5 people, then there's a good chance there will be disagreements about something or other, and bad experiences.
For example, in an early MMO, if you grouped with someone who didn't understand aggro, you could probably just pause for a minute and explain the concept. They would listen to what you had to say, and adjust their play style. Nowadays, in wow, if you pause a random group and try to explain a concept that's quite simple to veteran's, you are as likely to be met with abuse as with a receptive audience.
Precisely.
Now that mmo's are mainstream and big business, grouping dynamics will never be like they were in the early days, simply due to the number of people involved.
I think a lot of what people describe as elitism actually stems from the ambiguous nature of character progression in current gear-based end games. There is nothing particularly elitist about a lvl 40 not wanting to group with a lvl 30...and in most cases the lvl 30 wouldn't even ask. Yet, if a level capped player only wants to play with players at a similar gear level it is considered elitist. The problem is that gear level is not as visible or clear-cut as character level which leads to bad feelings between players that simply don't occur between the aforementioned lvl 40 and lvl 30.
Interesting, how many games include a built-in damage parse(or heal parse)? Not many, I think. You might be on to something there. Perhaps in some games the difference between raid-geared and non-raid-geared isn't as large as rumors imply. Eliminate the rumors and eliminate the elitism?
That's definitely not it. At least not in WOW.
During Burning Crusade I distinctly remember a huge spread in damage. Even before raid content. Where the average DPSer did ~300 DPS in a 5-man, but some particularly bad players did only 150 DPS. Whereas particularly geared/skilled DPSers were in there doing 450 DPS.
So even prior to raiding, the difference was pretty huge. When difficulty became tight (like on Heroic difficulty) I would not hesitate to kick players who were obviously not pulling their weight or heeding advice. I wouldn't be rude about it, it's simply that I wanted to get through content without some half-hearted deadweight preventing his 4 teammates from getting rewards out of the run.
I don't like the feeling of earning someone's rewards for them. If you're genuinely trying but underperforming, that's fine. If you're leeching gear, that's not so great.
You're not going to eliminate elitism. In any game that matters (aka: provides a challenge) you are going to hit a point where you need to either be picky about who you bring or walk away empty-handed. Apart from the jerks who ask for over-qualified teammates, it's totally fine.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
For early MMOs, a lot of players came from a very similar background. They were mostly geeks, and many had played other computer or tabletop games before.
For a modern game like WoW, the audience is much more diverse. People come from all different walks of life, are different ages, and have wildly differing attitudes. That means if you throw together a random group of 5 people, then there's a good chance there will be disagreements about something or other, and bad experiences.
For example, in an early MMO, if you grouped with someone who didn't understand aggro, you could probably just pause for a minute and explain the concept. They would listen to what you had to say, and adjust their play style. Nowadays, in wow, if you pause a random group and try to explain a concept that's quite simple to veteran's, you are as likely to be met with abuse as with a receptive audience.
Precisely.
Now that mmo's are mainstream and big business, grouping dynamics will never be like they were in the early days, simply due to the number of people involved.
It sort of depends on what type of gamers the game attacts. WOW is casual, so the grouping there is casual based. Therefore, more asshats. FF XI is hardcore, so the grouping there is hardcore based. Therefore, the community is smaller but nice and helpful (because being an asshat in that game guarenteed you that you wouldn't be in a party anytime soon).
Now, one thing that has interested me for a long time is the upcoming PS3 exclusive MAG. A 256 online player FPS shooter game. Can you imagine 128 vs 128 team death matches? Makes me wonder what kind of community that will spawn.
As gaming evolves, new types of grouping dynamics will appear.
Ooohhh...someone here still carries a grudge. You got the story wrong boyo. It wasn't me, it was someone else that didn't get ressed and got pissed as a result. I happened to see the whole situation unfold because merchants often traveled along that road....hahahaha.... But, in the end run, that situation showed me that when soloists attempt to solo inside a group-oriented (at the time) game, the results aren't neccessarily good. Also, that soloist inside Silkroad Online was an elitist, so, I've witnessed first hand what happens when you encounter (or in my case, observe) a elitist soloist.
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Ooohhh...someone here still carries a grudge. You got the story wrong boyo. It wasn't me, it was someone else that didn't get ressed and got pissed as a result. I happened to see the whole situation unfold because merchants often traveled along that road....hahahaha.... But, in the end run, that situation showed me that when soloists attempt to solo inside a group-oriented (at the time) game, the results aren't neccessarily good. Also, that soloist inside Silkroad Online was an elitist, so, I've witnessed first hand what happens when you encounter (or in my case, observe) a elitist soloist.
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Congradulations! That was your least negative post yet!
It's not neccessarily the group part, in fact both people were alone at the time. One person was in need of help, saw a cleric, and the cleric never rose a finger. Then, a mob rose to get even with the elitist soloist.
Another prime example of why soloists shouldn't be inside group games. Crazy things happen in group oriented games (usually the hardcore ones, though I've heard stories like this inside casual group games too) when one decides to act like an asshat.
Well bartle is just one system of measurement.. it was also the first and primarily developed for MUD's
Its just like personality measurements. There is a million. DISC was popular, then there was other ones.. now people are using DISC again, then they goto the colour system..
I've actually been lucky enough to attend some lectures about PaSSAGE which attempted a player profiling much more relivant to current games, and actually asses the player in a game enviroment rather than using a series of questions.
When the Xbox tells me based on my achievements and games and scores where i fit, then I'll listen :P
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
It sort of depends on what type of gamers the game attacts. WOW is casual, so the grouping there is casual based. Therefore, more asshats. FF XI is hardcore, so the grouping there is hardcore based. Therefore, the community is smaller but nice and helpful (because being an asshat in that game guarenteed you that you wouldn't be in a party anytime soon). Now, one thing that has interested me for a long time is the upcoming PS3 exclusive MAG. A 256 online player FPS shooter game. Can you imagine 128 vs 128 team death matches? Makes me wonder what kind of community that will spawn. As gaming evolves, new types of grouping dynamics will appear.
Indeed evolution is the key point here. In the earlier days of gaming, most gamers had similar ethics and idealogies, and tend to have similar play styles and points of views. I wouldn't go as far as to say most of us had similar backgrounds, but heh, we were all the same nerdy types of geeks back then. As gaming styles evolved and expanded though, newer gaming styles and mechanics are attracting a wider range of players into the nerd fold.
It is I guess not a case of the players being more asshat-ic and eliteist nowadays - but rather that there are now a wider and different range of people spending their time among us geeks...
Ooohhh...someone here still carries a grudge. You got the story wrong boyo. It wasn't me, it was someone else that didn't get ressed and got pissed as a result. I happened to see the whole situation unfold because merchants often traveled along that road....hahahaha.... But, in the end run, that situation showed me that when soloists attempt to solo inside a group-oriented (at the time) game, the results aren't neccessarily good. Also, that soloist inside Silkroad Online was an elitist, so, I've witnessed first hand what happens when you encounter (or in my case, observe) a elitist soloist.
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Cephus quit going off topic. Is there ever a post by you that isn't solo/group whine?
You should come post in OT, those right wingers need a fellow hatemonger to help spread more lies.
Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about. FFXI I never had a problem finding groups and people where always cheery and fun. none of that elitest stuff.....
on the other hand with WoW, if you don't have the exact gear, or the exact level, or have the right macros and so on.... you can't get into alot of the groups. But I honestly think its the way the game was designed more then the community. Where the whole point of the game was to "level really fast and win!"
And since WoW is the big boy on the block I kinda think it set the president. so we have this HUGE number of new MMO players... who think thats how you act. and its starting to bleed into other MMO's. So for all of those people "which game is gunna kill WoW" I hope nothing does... let them keep there sub base. *yeck* I wouldn't want them ruining another game..
Starting to bleed its an tsunami that infected other mmo's its terrible how so many these days think how to play an mmo WoW have ruined more then most realise:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Ooohhh...someone here still carries a grudge. You got the story wrong boyo. It wasn't me, it was someone else that didn't get ressed and got pissed as a result. I happened to see the whole situation unfold because merchants often traveled along that road....hahahaha.... But, in the end run, that situation showed me that when soloists attempt to solo inside a group-oriented (at the time) game, the results aren't neccessarily good. Also, that soloist inside Silkroad Online was an elitist, so, I've witnessed first hand what happens when you encounter (or in my case, observe) a elitist soloist.
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Cephus quit going off topic. Is there ever a post by you that isn't solo/group whine?
You should come post in OT, those right wingers need a fellow hatemonger to help spread more lies.
I was simply responding to a post by RamenThief. If you don't like it, then maybe he shouldn't keep posting his solo whine all over the place.
I love how many generalizations are present in the first two posts of this thread. I've never had trouble finding a group in World of Warcraft. There are so many easy ways to gear up your character for most content without raiding. Most people are turned away from the raids I attend for being undergeared for that very same reason. If you can't spend a little bit of time getting what gear you have access to, you obviously care very little for that character, and ultimately for the outcome of our encounter. The fact that someone said you needed specific macros and gear. Honestly, some content in WoW requires a certain level of experience and ability in order to have a chance at defeating the boss. If you have a problem getting a macro to work (most macros people try to enforce in raids are for targeting, which are really simple), then you might not be suited for a raid. There are plenty of other ways to get gear in that game.
That being said, I think games are doing the opposite of what the OP has suggested. Games like EverQuest and Ultima Online in their prime were much more elitist than the MMORPG market of today. When I played EverQuest years ago it was much more difficult to find groups, kill raid bosses, and get gear. Even the tradeskill items offered in the game required grouping, which made those even more difficult to obtain. Today, World of Warcraft and other current MMORPGs offer a certain amount of gear and accomplishment to come to a player without having to submit to the whims of the "hardcore." Every patch, in WoW at least, brings more and more content to the casual crowd. This is something I personally agree with. I think people, probably more like the OP, benefit from these patches. Now they can reach that gear level for raiding, and in the mean time have things to do that don't require obscene gear or experience. To say that games are more elitist now, in my opinion, comes from players who weren't around when games were far less forgiving and players equally so.
Going to have to disagree with you here. You do make a good point, and give us all something to think about. However, in the older games, you needed groups just to level up. People logged on for the sole purpose of getting into a group. They didn't care about loot as much, they were a lot more tolerant of other players, and therfore getting a group was generally much easier.
Also, there wasn't as much of a huge focus on endgame in the old days. It took forever to level your character and when you died, you lost hours worth of experience points. It sucked when it happened, but that is what people expected, and so they worked harder not to die, and cared (generally) more for their fellow gamers than the current generation does.
In the old games, you weren't gearing up for anything particular. You were leveling up and meeting new people. Gear was an afterthought. It came naturally. You didn't have to work for it, all you had to do was play the game.
Of course as time wore on and there were expansion after expansion and the gear gap became wider and wider, yes you are correct, there was alot more gear elitism and difficulty finding a group. But in my opinion games like WoW make these things the standard, which is severely detrimental to gaming communities as a whole.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Ooohhh...someone here still carries a grudge. You got the story wrong boyo. It wasn't me, it was someone else that didn't get ressed and got pissed as a result. I happened to see the whole situation unfold because merchants often traveled along that road....hahahaha.... But, in the end run, that situation showed me that when soloists attempt to solo inside a group-oriented (at the time) game, the results aren't neccessarily good. Also, that soloist inside Silkroad Online was an elitist, so, I've witnessed first hand what happens when you encounter (or in my case, observe) a elitist soloist.
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Cephus quit going off topic. Is there ever a post by you that isn't solo/group whine?
You should come post in OT, those right wingers need a fellow hatemonger to help spread more lies.
I was simply responding to a post by RamenThief. If you don't like it, then maybe he shouldn't keep posting his solo whine all over the place.
No, YOU should stop going off topic. YOU brought up the story in an attempt to embarrass me online, and so far, it doesn't seem like it's working.
Simply put, the elitist attitude is different with each type of game. For example, FF XI. That game is a hardcore group game, and it produced an excellent community even if it is somewhat difficult to find a party (depending on what role you commonly played, my friend was a white mage most of the time and he never had problems getting into a party). The reason? Groups will sometimes kick you out or prevent you from joining their group if you're not the role they need. But is that neccessarily an elitist attitude? This particular group in this example is lacking a white mage and some sort of tanker role, and you happened to be a black mage at the time that refused to switch roles. This, in my opinion, isn't an elitist attitude, because they refused you access because you weren't a role they needed.
I shall requote a post I created earlier that highlights my thoughts on the different elitist attiudes.
In my opinion, an "elite" is different depending on what the game style is: 1. Solo: Elites are people who try to beat the game the quickest and reach max level cap. They are usually the ones that use guides. 2. Casual Group: Elites are people that will kick you out of a group if you are not level "so and so" or don't have a specific skill. Raid parties are like this in these types of games. 3. Hardcore Group: Elites are people that will refuse you access to a group because you don't have the specific skills or aren't a particular level. However, this is done because the group may be going someplace where failure and dying has extreme consequences, so the group really needs to be in top shape or failure is imminent. Now, this is just my opinion, but many of you who bag on FF XI being too elite don't exactly realize what a hardcore group game is, and why choosing the right people for a group was important. Plus, even with that sort of mentality, I can say that FF XI had the nicest community I've ever seen in an mmorpg. They were helpful, asshats were destroyed quickly in the game (word gets around, people refuse to party with you), and basically all the positives of harsh environment showed (death penalties were severe in the game, one more reason why groups made sure they had all roles set).
This is the post I said I would requote for everyone.
Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.
Exactly. handing in a CV for consideration and review before a raid is a common practice in WOW, but I haven't really experienced it in EQ2, EVE, AC, LOTRO or... well... any other MMO I play.
A lot of it depends on what kind of gamer YOU are.... Its always been about becoming the elitest for me, and my friends. For other casual players its not. For some people it is a pipe dream to ever hit elite status, and for others it is not a matter of if, but when, regardless of the game.
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Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.
Exactly. handing in a CV for consideration and review before a raid is a common practice in WOW, but I haven't really experienced it in EQ2, EVE, AC, LOTRO or... well... any other MMO I play.
A lot of it depends on what kind of gamer YOU are.... Its always been about becoming the elitest for me, and my friends. For other casual players its not. For some people it is a pipe dream to ever hit elite status, and for others it is not a matter of if, but when, regardless of the game.
Joining an elite corporation in EVE can be can be an involved process where people will not even consider you if you do not have enough skill points. EVE does not have pickup up groups for content so all the elitism is done out of public sight. When I last played EVE there were plenty of complaints of people not being given a chance to prove themselves simply becasue they did not have enougth skill points. It is the sam principle.
If a game has challenging content then it will develop a system where the players trying to beat those challenges will only group with people they thing can pull their own weight. The more accessible the content is the more public the system will be and the easier it is to spot the 'wannabe elites' trying to abuse it in stupid ways.
Well alot of it depends on which game we are talking about.
Exactly. handing in a CV for consideration and review before a raid is a common practice in WOW, but I haven't really experienced it in EQ2, EVE, AC, LOTRO or... well... any other MMO I play.
A lot of it depends on what kind of gamer YOU are.... Its always been about becoming the elitest for me, and my friends. For other casual players its not. For some people it is a pipe dream to ever hit elite status, and for others it is not a matter of if, but when, regardless of the game.
Joining an elite corporation in EVE can be can be an involved process where people will not even consider you if you do not have enough skill points. EVE does not have pickup up groups for content so all the elitism is done out of public sight. When I last played EVE there were plenty of complaints of people not being given a chance to prove themselves simply becasue they did not have enougth skill points. It is the sam principle.
If a game has challenging content then it will develop a system where the players trying to beat those challenges will only group with people they thing can pull their own weight. The more accessible the content is the more public the system will be and the easier it is to spot the 'wannabe elites' trying to abuse it in stupid ways.
In a way, EVE's system of elite corporations sort of applies to real life.
Think of it this way. Let's say you're working at Walmart. Now, a position for assistant manager opens up, and everyone is welcome to apply. But, the manager is looking over the applications carefully. He won't hire some n00b, it has to be someone with good credentials and an attitude that the manager likes.
Now, I do not have any direct experience playing EVE Online, but if this is how elite corporations work on that game, I don't see a problem. However, this is coming from someone who hasn't played EVE Online, so only the idea looks good on paper.
Originally posted by RamenThief7 In a way, EVE's system of elite corporations sort of applies to real life. Think of it this way. Let's say you're working at Walmart. Now, a position for assistant manager opens up, and everyone is welcome to apply. But, the manager is looking over the applications carefully. He won't hire some n00b, it has to be someone with good credentials and an attitude that the manager likes. Now, I do not have any direct experience playing EVE Online, but if this is how elite corporations work on that game, I don't see a problem. However, this is coming from someone who hasn't played EVE Online, so only the idea looks good on paper.
This is actually how any serious guild/corporation works in any game. The 'scrub' guidls will take anyone right 'off the street'. Any guild that actually cares about the quality of its recruits will give the candidate an interview (anything from a short exchange of tells to hours of grilling) and a try period. If you really want to get serious you can have applications on your website and asks for recommendations before even considering the application.
The issue here is the level to which this process is taken. Most people have no issue with being asked a few questions before joining a guild and staying as a probationary member for a few weeks. However, they will usually not bother with guilds that require extensive interviews or an out-of-game application process. Only the ones who really want to be in the guild will do so.
EVE is interesting because the consequences of letting the wrong person join your corporation can be so massive. So the screening process can be even more involved even for casual corporations.
The FFA PvP nature of EVE makes pickup-groups not viable so the 'eliitism' in that game shifts to corporation recruitment.
In WoW people PuG content all the time so this is where 'elitism' becomes most public. Pickup groups are short lived affairs so you really do not have the time to screen people liek you might want to. You simply ahve to take a quick glance an the person and make a snap judgement whether you wnat that person in yoru group or not. That judgement might be faulty but it is the best you got .
One thinkg I have noticed in video games and other activities where an 'elite' forms that it is the 'wannabe elites' that are the most aggressive and inflexible about stuff like quantifiable stats to decide eligibility. The real 'pros' could care less about trivial stuff like that and trust their gut to make the right choice based on their experience in the field.
Originally posted by RamenThief7 In a way, EVE's system of elite corporations sort of applies to real life. Think of it this way. Let's say you're working at Walmart. Now, a position for assistant manager opens up, and everyone is welcome to apply. But, the manager is looking over the applications carefully. He won't hire some n00b, it has to be someone with good credentials and an attitude that the manager likes. Now, I do not have any direct experience playing EVE Online, but if this is how elite corporations work on that game, I don't see a problem. However, this is coming from someone who hasn't played EVE Online, so only the idea looks good on paper.
This is actually how any serious guild/corporation works in any game. The 'scrub' guidls will take anyone right 'off the street'. Any guild that actually cares about the quality of its recruits will give the candidate an interview (anything from a short exchange of tells to hours of grilling) and a try period. If you really want to get serious you can have applications on your website and asks for recommendations before even considering the application.
The issue here is the level to which this process is taken. Most people have no issue with being asked a few questions before joining a guild and staying as a probationary member for a few weeks. However, they will usually not bother with guilds that require extensive interviews or an out-of-game application process. Only the ones who really want to be in the guild will do so.
EVE is interesting because the consequences of letting the wrong person join your corporation can be so massive. So the screening process can be even more involved even for casual corporations.
The FFA PvP nature of EVE makes pickup-groups not viable so the 'eliitism' in that game shifts to corporation recruitment.
In WoW people PuG content all the time so this is where 'elitism' becomes most public. Pickup groups are short lived affairs so you really do not have the time to screen people liek you might want to. You simply ahve to take a quick glance an the person and make a snap judgement whether you wnat that person in yoru group or not. That judgement might be faulty but it is the best you got .
One thinkg I have noticed in video games and other activities where an 'elite' forms that it is the 'wannabe elites' that are the most aggressive and inflexible about stuff like quantifiable stats to decide eligibility. The real 'pros' could care less about trivial stuff like that and trust their gut to make the right choice based on their experience in the field.
I see your point. In my opinion of these situations, there can be "good" elites and "bad" elites.
1. "Good" elites will do a screen process. The application for a position in the guild is made public, and elites of that guild will look over everyone carefully. They might need skill (that guild could be going up against serious competition like other powerful guilds or corporations or be going up against tough enemies and mob encounters), but they also need experience. After all, your skills are no good if you're not adequately experienced on them. Finally, the attitude is evaluated. Guilds will look for many things, but "good" elites look for less trivial stuff. They simply need to see whether or not that person would be fun to work with.
Pros: Less strict, the "good" elites are skilled players, so you have powerful allies. They may be fun to work with, and they do not demand alot of things from you (although don't expect them to be lax, you do need to help out your guild from time to time).
Cons: Screening process isn't as strict, meaning the chances of getting asshats or not-so experienced people is higher. Some of these guilds, if too laid back, will have people with little commitments to the guild occasionally (though it doesn't become to a point where it's a "casual" guild, but it does become a problem if the guild is meant to be serious).
2. "Bad" elites also do a screen process, but it's more strict. They want the best of the best, and n00bs do not apply. They represent the elitism negative attitude that many people on these threads do not like (including me). They also will demand some heavy responsibilities of you, and overall they just want other elites. If you're not their level or as skilled, you have no chance.
Pros: These guilds can be filled with the best of the best, which means a very powerful guild occasionally.
Cons: Bad elitist attitudes form here. Some of these guilds may demand huge reponsibilites, such as commitment to playing during certain times always or face expulsion from the guild.
Originally posted by RamenThief7 I see your point. In my opinion of these situations, there can be "good" elites and "bad" elites. 1. "Good" elites will do a screen process. The application for a position in the guild is made public, and elites of that guild will look over everyone carefully. They might need skill (that guild could be going up against serious competition like other powerful guilds or corporations or be going up against tough enemies and mob encounters), but they also need experience. After all, your skills are no good if you're not adequately experienced on them. Finally, the attitude is evaluated. Guilds will look for many things, but "good" elites look for less trivial stuff. They simply need to see whether or not that person would be fun to work with. Pros: Less strict, the "good" elites are skilled players, so you have powerful allies. They may be fun to work with, and they do not demand alot of things from you (although don't expect them to be lax, you do need to help out your guild from time to time). Cons: Screening process isn't as strict, meaning the chances of getting asshats or not-so experienced people is higher. Some of these guilds, if too laid back, will have people with little commitments to the guild occasionally (though it doesn't become to a point where it's a "casual" guild, but it does become a problem if the guild is meant to be serious). 2. "Bad" elites also do a screen process, but it's more strict. They want the best of the best, and n00bs do not apply. They represent the elitism negative attitude that many people on these threads do not like (including me). They also will demand some heavy responsibilities of you, and overall they just want other elites. If you're not their level or as skilled, you have no chance. Pros: These guilds can be filled with the best of the best, which means a very powerful guild occasionally. Cons: Bad elitist attitudes form here. Some of these guilds may demand huge reponsibilites, such as commitment to playing during certain times always or face expulsion from the guild.
I would personally classify this type of division as 'good' or 'bad' elites but as 'casual' and 'harcore' elites. They are all still 'good' elites since they know how to play and understand what matters and thus their elitism is ground in actual accomplishment.
To me the 'bad' elites are people who use their perceived status as an 'elite' to assert rights not based on actual game realities. A 'good, hardcore' elite player will play long and very hard but understand that this is his chose playstyle and it does not make other playstyles less valid. A 'bad, hardore' elite player will consider anyone who plays less then him to be a 'bad', not worthy of respect.
There is nothing inherently wrong about only wanting to group with players with tons of experience and high damage numbers. The trick is not to be a jerk doing so and understand the realities of this type of playstyle.
Comments
The answer to the main queston of this post " When did it become all about being the elitest?" that wold be from day one. Sorry to say this but I'm going to talk about WOW for one minent. The first day that I saw a 1st level character in SW asking for a hand out (a gold) from people, I know that that game had went to the birds. So that was the day that MMOs had had elitests. People willing to work for there gold and people asking for a handouts.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.
Interesting, how many games include a built-in damage parse(or heal parse)? Not many, I think. You might be on to something there. Perhaps in some games the difference between raid-geared and non-raid-geared isn't as large as rumors imply. Eliminate the rumors and eliminate the elitism?
...
What we NEED are new mechanics set up for games just so everyone can have the same level of experience, where the gameplay and level designs themselves are fun and enjoyable, and players can play for the experience itself, and not for the gear or any other e-peen booster that might drop. Think of a rollercoaster ride - people don't ride on them becuase they might get sometime afterwards - they ride on them beucase the ride itself is fun and thrilling.
Content only accessible depending on how much played time a toon has? That might draw people away from the level grind rush if they know they have to wait a certain amount of time regardless of level.
Good point, that someone has earned their rank doesn't imply that they must cater to people who haven't earned their rank. The asker can be viewed as an elitist if they demand compliance.
The blame is on everyone in reality. I've met people who were elitist soloists (on Silkroad Online, a game that was group-oriented, ah the irony).
So, you know, don't pin all the blame on group player. Soloists are just as guilty.
Uh huh, just like in real life, people who are solo tend to behave better than those in groups. It's called Mob Mentality and is a factual phenomena. There are always exception to this rule, but any time you get large numbers of people together in a competitive atmosphere, such as raiding, you will find the lion's share of misbehavior.
True, plus you have to understand that RamenThief is still pissed that some random solo cleric who was walking by didn't automatically resurrect one of his characters because apparently, anyone who can do something for his character somehow owes it to him to do so. There's an awful lot of entitlement nonsense that goes on in these games, where people act like the world owes them a living, people owe it to them to group with them, resurrect them, buff them, etc.
It ain't necessarily so.
Ooohhh...someone here still carries a grudge.
You got the story wrong boyo. It wasn't me, it was someone else that didn't get ressed and got pissed as a result. I happened to see the whole situation unfold because merchants often traveled along that road....hahahaha....
But, in the end run, that situation showed me that when soloists attempt to solo inside a group-oriented (at the time) game, the results aren't neccessarily good.
Also, that soloist inside Silkroad Online was an elitist, so, I've witnessed first hand what happens when you encounter (or in my case, observe) a elitist soloist.
Precisely.
Now that mmo's are mainstream and big business, grouping dynamics will never be like they were in the early days, simply due to the number of people involved.
Interesting, how many games include a built-in damage parse(or heal parse)? Not many, I think. You might be on to something there. Perhaps in some games the difference between raid-geared and non-raid-geared isn't as large as rumors imply. Eliminate the rumors and eliminate the elitism?
That's definitely not it. At least not in WOW.
During Burning Crusade I distinctly remember a huge spread in damage. Even before raid content. Where the average DPSer did ~300 DPS in a 5-man, but some particularly bad players did only 150 DPS. Whereas particularly geared/skilled DPSers were in there doing 450 DPS.
So even prior to raiding, the difference was pretty huge. When difficulty became tight (like on Heroic difficulty) I would not hesitate to kick players who were obviously not pulling their weight or heeding advice. I wouldn't be rude about it, it's simply that I wanted to get through content without some half-hearted deadweight preventing his 4 teammates from getting rewards out of the run.
I don't like the feeling of earning someone's rewards for them. If you're genuinely trying but underperforming, that's fine. If you're leeching gear, that's not so great.
You're not going to eliminate elitism. In any game that matters (aka: provides a challenge) you are going to hit a point where you need to either be picky about who you bring or walk away empty-handed. Apart from the jerks who ask for over-qualified teammates, it's totally fine.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Precisely.
Now that mmo's are mainstream and big business, grouping dynamics will never be like they were in the early days, simply due to the number of people involved.
It sort of depends on what type of gamers the game attacts. WOW is casual, so the grouping there is casual based. Therefore, more asshats. FF XI is hardcore, so the grouping there is hardcore based. Therefore, the community is smaller but nice and helpful (because being an asshat in that game guarenteed you that you wouldn't be in a party anytime soon).
Now, one thing that has interested me for a long time is the upcoming PS3 exclusive MAG. A 256 online player FPS shooter game. Can you imagine 128 vs 128 team death matches? Makes me wonder what kind of community that will spawn.
As gaming evolves, new types of grouping dynamics will appear.
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Congradulations! That was your least negative post yet!
It's not neccessarily the group part, in fact both people were alone at the time. One person was in need of help, saw a cleric, and the cleric never rose a finger. Then, a mob rose to get even with the elitist soloist.
Another prime example of why soloists shouldn't be inside group games. Crazy things happen in group oriented games (usually the hardcore ones, though I've heard stories like this inside casual group games too) when one decides to act like an asshat.
Well bartle is just one system of measurement.. it was also the first and primarily developed for MUD's
Its just like personality measurements. There is a million. DISC was popular, then there was other ones.. now people are using DISC again, then they goto the colour system..
I've actually been lucky enough to attend some lectures about PaSSAGE which attempted a player profiling much more relivant to current games, and actually asses the player in a game enviroment rather than using a series of questions.
When the Xbox tells me based on my achievements and games and scores where i fit, then I'll listen :P
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Indeed evolution is the key point here. In the earlier days of gaming, most gamers had similar ethics and idealogies, and tend to have similar play styles and points of views. I wouldn't go as far as to say most of us had similar backgrounds, but heh, we were all the same nerdy types of geeks back then. As gaming styles evolved and expanded though, newer gaming styles and mechanics are attracting a wider range of players into the nerd fold.
It is I guess not a case of the players being more asshat-ic and eliteist nowadays - but rather that there are now a wider and different range of people spending their time among us geeks...
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Cephus quit going off topic. Is there ever a post by you that isn't solo/group whine?
You should come post in OT, those right wingers need a fellow hatemonger to help spread more lies.
Starting to bleed its an tsunami that infected other mmo's its terrible how so many these days think how to play an mmo WoW have ruined more then most realise:(
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Cephus quit going off topic. Is there ever a post by you that isn't solo/group whine?
You should come post in OT, those right wingers need a fellow hatemonger to help spread more lies.
I was simply responding to a post by RamenThief. If you don't like it, then maybe he shouldn't keep posting his solo whine all over the place.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
True. That seems to be all anyone cares about anymore in MMORPGs. Its really sad.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Going to have to disagree with you here. You do make a good point, and give us all something to think about. However, in the older games, you needed groups just to level up. People logged on for the sole purpose of getting into a group. They didn't care about loot as much, they were a lot more tolerant of other players, and therfore getting a group was generally much easier.
Also, there wasn't as much of a huge focus on endgame in the old days. It took forever to level your character and when you died, you lost hours worth of experience points. It sucked when it happened, but that is what people expected, and so they worked harder not to die, and cared (generally) more for their fellow gamers than the current generation does.
In the old games, you weren't gearing up for anything particular. You were leveling up and meeting new people. Gear was an afterthought. It came naturally. You didn't have to work for it, all you had to do was play the game.
Of course as time wore on and there were expansion after expansion and the gear gap became wider and wider, yes you are correct, there was alot more gear elitism and difficulty finding a group. But in my opinion games like WoW make these things the standard, which is severely detrimental to gaming communities as a whole.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
No grudge required, you're still pissed off because someone wouldn't be a grouper's bitch. I'm willing to bet that had it been someone in another group passing by who hadn't helped, you wouldn't be raising a stink about it. You're just using this as a means to whine about soloists when in reality, you've got an entitlement complex.
Nobody owes you jack shit, no matter how much you might think they ought to. Get over it.
Cephus quit going off topic. Is there ever a post by you that isn't solo/group whine?
You should come post in OT, those right wingers need a fellow hatemonger to help spread more lies.
I was simply responding to a post by RamenThief. If you don't like it, then maybe he shouldn't keep posting his solo whine all over the place.
No, YOU should stop going off topic. YOU brought up the story in an attempt to embarrass me online, and so far, it doesn't seem like it's working.
Simply put, the elitist attitude is different with each type of game. For example, FF XI. That game is a hardcore group game, and it produced an excellent community even if it is somewhat difficult to find a party (depending on what role you commonly played, my friend was a white mage most of the time and he never had problems getting into a party). The reason? Groups will sometimes kick you out or prevent you from joining their group if you're not the role they need. But is that neccessarily an elitist attitude? This particular group in this example is lacking a white mage and some sort of tanker role, and you happened to be a black mage at the time that refused to switch roles. This, in my opinion, isn't an elitist attitude, because they refused you access because you weren't a role they needed.
I shall requote a post I created earlier that highlights my thoughts on the different elitist attiudes.
This is the post I said I would requote for everyone.
Exactly. handing in a CV for consideration and review before a raid is a common practice in WOW, but I haven't really experienced it in EQ2, EVE, AC, LOTRO or... well... any other MMO I play.
A lot of it depends on what kind of gamer YOU are.... Its always been about becoming the elitest for me, and my friends. For other casual players its not. For some people it is a pipe dream to ever hit elite status, and for others it is not a matter of if, but when, regardless of the game.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Exactly. handing in a CV for consideration and review before a raid is a common practice in WOW, but I haven't really experienced it in EQ2, EVE, AC, LOTRO or... well... any other MMO I play.
A lot of it depends on what kind of gamer YOU are.... Its always been about becoming the elitest for me, and my friends. For other casual players its not. For some people it is a pipe dream to ever hit elite status, and for others it is not a matter of if, but when, regardless of the game.
Joining an elite corporation in EVE can be can be an involved process where people will not even consider you if you do not have enough skill points. EVE does not have pickup up groups for content so all the elitism is done out of public sight. When I last played EVE there were plenty of complaints of people not being given a chance to prove themselves simply becasue they did not have enougth skill points. It is the sam principle.
If a game has challenging content then it will develop a system where the players trying to beat those challenges will only group with people they thing can pull their own weight. The more accessible the content is the more public the system will be and the easier it is to spot the 'wannabe elites' trying to abuse it in stupid ways.
Exactly. handing in a CV for consideration and review before a raid is a common practice in WOW, but I haven't really experienced it in EQ2, EVE, AC, LOTRO or... well... any other MMO I play.
A lot of it depends on what kind of gamer YOU are.... Its always been about becoming the elitest for me, and my friends. For other casual players its not. For some people it is a pipe dream to ever hit elite status, and for others it is not a matter of if, but when, regardless of the game.
Joining an elite corporation in EVE can be can be an involved process where people will not even consider you if you do not have enough skill points. EVE does not have pickup up groups for content so all the elitism is done out of public sight. When I last played EVE there were plenty of complaints of people not being given a chance to prove themselves simply becasue they did not have enougth skill points. It is the sam principle.
If a game has challenging content then it will develop a system where the players trying to beat those challenges will only group with people they thing can pull their own weight. The more accessible the content is the more public the system will be and the easier it is to spot the 'wannabe elites' trying to abuse it in stupid ways.
In a way, EVE's system of elite corporations sort of applies to real life.
Think of it this way. Let's say you're working at Walmart. Now, a position for assistant manager opens up, and everyone is welcome to apply. But, the manager is looking over the applications carefully. He won't hire some n00b, it has to be someone with good credentials and an attitude that the manager likes.
Now, I do not have any direct experience playing EVE Online, but if this is how elite corporations work on that game, I don't see a problem. However, this is coming from someone who hasn't played EVE Online, so only the idea looks good on paper.
This is actually how any serious guild/corporation works in any game. The 'scrub' guidls will take anyone right 'off the street'. Any guild that actually cares about the quality of its recruits will give the candidate an interview (anything from a short exchange of tells to hours of grilling) and a try period. If you really want to get serious you can have applications on your website and asks for recommendations before even considering the application.
The issue here is the level to which this process is taken. Most people have no issue with being asked a few questions before joining a guild and staying as a probationary member for a few weeks. However, they will usually not bother with guilds that require extensive interviews or an out-of-game application process. Only the ones who really want to be in the guild will do so.
EVE is interesting because the consequences of letting the wrong person join your corporation can be so massive. So the screening process can be even more involved even for casual corporations.
The FFA PvP nature of EVE makes pickup-groups not viable so the 'eliitism' in that game shifts to corporation recruitment.
In WoW people PuG content all the time so this is where 'elitism' becomes most public. Pickup groups are short lived affairs so you really do not have the time to screen people liek you might want to. You simply ahve to take a quick glance an the person and make a snap judgement whether you wnat that person in yoru group or not. That judgement might be faulty but it is the best you got .
One thinkg I have noticed in video games and other activities where an 'elite' forms that it is the 'wannabe elites' that are the most aggressive and inflexible about stuff like quantifiable stats to decide eligibility. The real 'pros' could care less about trivial stuff like that and trust their gut to make the right choice based on their experience in the field.
This is actually how any serious guild/corporation works in any game. The 'scrub' guidls will take anyone right 'off the street'. Any guild that actually cares about the quality of its recruits will give the candidate an interview (anything from a short exchange of tells to hours of grilling) and a try period. If you really want to get serious you can have applications on your website and asks for recommendations before even considering the application.
The issue here is the level to which this process is taken. Most people have no issue with being asked a few questions before joining a guild and staying as a probationary member for a few weeks. However, they will usually not bother with guilds that require extensive interviews or an out-of-game application process. Only the ones who really want to be in the guild will do so.
EVE is interesting because the consequences of letting the wrong person join your corporation can be so massive. So the screening process can be even more involved even for casual corporations.
The FFA PvP nature of EVE makes pickup-groups not viable so the 'eliitism' in that game shifts to corporation recruitment.
In WoW people PuG content all the time so this is where 'elitism' becomes most public. Pickup groups are short lived affairs so you really do not have the time to screen people liek you might want to. You simply ahve to take a quick glance an the person and make a snap judgement whether you wnat that person in yoru group or not. That judgement might be faulty but it is the best you got .
One thinkg I have noticed in video games and other activities where an 'elite' forms that it is the 'wannabe elites' that are the most aggressive and inflexible about stuff like quantifiable stats to decide eligibility. The real 'pros' could care less about trivial stuff like that and trust their gut to make the right choice based on their experience in the field.
I see your point. In my opinion of these situations, there can be "good" elites and "bad" elites.
1. "Good" elites will do a screen process. The application for a position in the guild is made public, and elites of that guild will look over everyone carefully. They might need skill (that guild could be going up against serious competition like other powerful guilds or corporations or be going up against tough enemies and mob encounters), but they also need experience. After all, your skills are no good if you're not adequately experienced on them. Finally, the attitude is evaluated. Guilds will look for many things, but "good" elites look for less trivial stuff. They simply need to see whether or not that person would be fun to work with.
Pros: Less strict, the "good" elites are skilled players, so you have powerful allies. They may be fun to work with, and they do not demand alot of things from you (although don't expect them to be lax, you do need to help out your guild from time to time).
Cons: Screening process isn't as strict, meaning the chances of getting asshats or not-so experienced people is higher. Some of these guilds, if too laid back, will have people with little commitments to the guild occasionally (though it doesn't become to a point where it's a "casual" guild, but it does become a problem if the guild is meant to be serious).
2. "Bad" elites also do a screen process, but it's more strict. They want the best of the best, and n00bs do not apply. They represent the elitism negative attitude that many people on these threads do not like (including me). They also will demand some heavy responsibilities of you, and overall they just want other elites. If you're not their level or as skilled, you have no chance.
Pros: These guilds can be filled with the best of the best, which means a very powerful guild occasionally.
Cons: Bad elitist attitudes form here. Some of these guilds may demand huge reponsibilites, such as commitment to playing during certain times always or face expulsion from the guild.
I would personally classify this type of division as 'good' or 'bad' elites but as 'casual' and 'harcore' elites. They are all still 'good' elites since they know how to play and understand what matters and thus their elitism is ground in actual accomplishment.
To me the 'bad' elites are people who use their perceived status as an 'elite' to assert rights not based on actual game realities. A 'good, hardcore' elite player will play long and very hard but understand that this is his chose playstyle and it does not make other playstyles less valid. A 'bad, hardore' elite player will consider anyone who plays less then him to be a 'bad', not worthy of respect.
There is nothing inherently wrong about only wanting to group with players with tons of experience and high damage numbers. The trick is not to be a jerk doing so and understand the realities of this type of playstyle.