Any game that offers a place to congregate and chat will generate a community. Forced cooperation on the other hand is a big turn off for a lot of people. If they want this game to do better in the west than it's predecessor did, they're going to have to really take that to heart. Otherwise, they'll just end up cannibalizing their current player base and will never increase their market share.
Ironic combination of statements there. Many would argue, and I would agree, that a big reason why FFXI has such a great community is *because* so much of it required people to group up and work together. When you're in a party for 3 or 4 hours grinding away, or working through some mission, etc... You get to talking, you get to know people and your friends list adds up.
Also, not to sound elitist (because I can't stand elitism, myself), but I think the more group-centric focus of the game has kept away much of the solo/lone-wolf players who would, perhaps, have otherwise steered the community in a very different direction.
Though I've had my share of gripes with other people, and don't like some of the decisions they've collectively made (most recently how Campaign + Level Sync + FoV has all but killed normal xp parties, outside of skillup parties)... I have to say the FFXI community has been, by and large, among the best I've ever been part of in any MMO I've played. Matrix Online's, in beta and for a time after launch, was awesome as well, but died off when that game nose-dived.
Even here on these forums, you can see a definite "quality" in the people who post on the FFXI and now the FFXIV forums than you do in most other MMOs forums. Significantly less flaming... We don't suffer trouble-makers nearly as much as other games' forums do... and even when they come around, they're typically dealt with more gracefully.
All in all, I'd say the FFXI community is a pretty damn kick-ass group of people, and I *really* hope to see that extend into FFXIV.
As for the next bit...
That's an interesting point-of-view... but I dont' think it's necessarily warranted. FFXI has been, without a doubt, a very successful MMO. Could it be more popular? Of course. However, being the #4 most popular MMO after 6 years or so is nothing to sneeze at - especially for a game that's often considered "niche" in the genre.
But... we shall see.
Beautiful thoughts here WSI Mike. I've seen many people coming here talking about how FF XIV will make more money and be more successful if it was more casual and solo friendly, yet they do not see our view.
Perhaps I should create a "Why FF XIV shouldn't be casual friendy AND solo friendly" thread to discuss this...
If they werent going to make changes to the game from FF Xl why would they bother to make a new game? If everyone playing FF now moves to the new game and no one else has any incentive to try it as its the same as Xl i do not see what the devs have to gain.
They have everything to gain since its a new title in the roman numerals series
The Final Fantasy roman numeral series is legend in a regards to having the best storyline. There are few books, movies, or tv series that have such involed storylines, But all storys must come to an end so a new tail can be told
So in this new game we get Final Fantasy's classic changes diffent game play, more customised avatars, and a new story.
Final Fanasy has always changed its style trying to evolve it something better. So understanding that I will go and play this game with an open mind beleaving that FFXI the game I played and loved for 3 years has evolved again into FFXIV an mmo that i can enjoy for many more years
If they werent going to make changes to the game from FF Xl why would they bother to make a new game? If everyone playing FF now moves to the new game and no one else has any incentive to try it as its the same as Xl i do not see what the devs have to gain.
They have everything to gain since its a new title in the roman numerals series
The Final Fantasy roman numeral series is legend in a regards to having the best storyline. There are few books, movies, or tv series that have such involed storylines, But all storys must come to an end so a new tail can be told
So in this new game we get Final Fantasy's classic changes diffent game play, more customised avatars, and a new story.
Final Fanasy has always changed its style trying to evolve it something better. So understanding that I will go and play this game with an open mind beleaving that FFXI the game I played and loved for 3 years has evolved again into FFXIV an mmo that i can enjoy for many more years
I havnt played FFXl but have heard its a good game. Does this mean Xl will close or will it keep servers open after the new game releases?
Well, we don't want to start a flame war with Darkfall fans, so I will say this. Here's to hoping that 1. The game (FF XIV) is not solo friendly, soloing is only a bit easier so that during this time you are not screwed, yet you are looking for a party continuously. 2. The game is still hardcore group based. 3. The game is not casual friendly.
Well, they've already pretty plainly stated that none of those will occur, no offense. And as others have stated, it makes no sense from a business point of view to not follow through with their plan to make the game more casual/solo oriented. I've talked to a number of long time FFXI players, and they are already writing the game off (though of course many more are excited). I don't really blame them because if you've invested as much time as some have in FFXI, it would be difficult to throw away that sense of accomplishment. Luckily for SE, the less hardcore who liked FFXI but left because of forced grouping (one of the largest reasons for a drop off in subs, I'm sure) will definitely be on board for FFXIV.
Even if you ignore the whole business side of the arguement, and only worry about the community, I think it would still be fine as a solo game. Just because forced grouping resulted in a tight-knit community in FFXI doesn't prove it is the only means of achieving this goal. Not only that, but it makes more sense from a community standpoint to keep the games different because a great deal of the elitism that would have otherwise taken root in FFXIV will stay in FFXI, and the casual crowd will be able to play a game they enjoy without adding their frustration to the FFXI community.
I'm not saying that there should be no incentive to group, but forcing it is a different matter entirely. Having both final fantasy MMOs only cater to a hardcore niche is unfair to fans in such a widely popular IP as well. I'm confident SE will find a reasonable balance, but it will and should definitely be toward the casual side for FFXIV, as they intend.
I havnt played FFXl but have heard its a good game. Does this mean Xl will close or will it keep servers open after the new game releases?
No, SE has stated multiple times that they plan to keep supporting FFXI as long as the playerbase does. They intend to operate both games simultaneously and parallel to eachother.
If they werent going to make changes to the game from FF Xl why would they bother to make a new game? If everyone playing FF now moves to the new game and no one else has any incentive to try it as its the same as Xl i do not see what the devs have to gain.
They have everything to gain since its a new title in the roman numerals series
The Final Fantasy roman numeral series is legend in a regards to having the best storyline. There are few books, movies, or tv series that have such involed storylines, But all storys must come to an end so a new tail can be told
So in this new game we get Final Fantasy's classic changes diffent game play, more customised avatars, and a new story.
Final Fanasy has always changed its style trying to evolve it something better. So understanding that I will go and play this game with an open mind beleaving that FFXI the game I played and loved for 3 years has evolved again into FFXIV an mmo that i can enjoy for many more years
I havnt played FFXl but have heard its a good game. Does this mean Xl will close or will it keep servers open after the new game releases?
I wonderd that myself. I supose it will all depend on the gamers
Example "Everquest - Everquest 2" when Everquest 2 came out everone was like omg i cant wait it gone be the best game ever all new graphics the largest active world in ever made with npc char that had lives of there own so you would have to run around trying to find them in certain places in certain times of the day or something like that. SOOO~ everyone quit Everquest 1 and went over to Everquest 2. 1 month after the free subcrisption finishs 90% go back to Everquest 1. Everquest II was just to different no one excepted it. And so Everquest 2 joins the ranks of failed MMO
Just so you know 90% is the number i was told by my friend who was sucked in by the hype of the new game. As for the reason everyone left well im sure it changes from person to person. Im just telling you what my friend told me.
The problem with the whole "appeal to a new crowd" logic is this: a lot of the people who didn't get involved with FFXI aren't the least bit interested in FFXIV. All they see is "another Asian grinder", even though that may not even be the case. So the crowd that SE might be trying to reach by making it different from FFXI could very well not even bother trying it and the effort is wasted. Meanwhile, the people who loved FFXI could very well try out FFXIV and get turned off because they are expecting the same type game. So it's possible they wind up appealing to neither crowd. That happened with EQ2 (the people that didn't like EQ had no interest in it, and people who did like EQ were turned off by it), and Warhammer as well.
I'm not saying that will definitely happen to FFXIV, but it is something to consider.
Well i have read all the posts throu here and i must say that i understand and support WSIMike and i think that he has exactly hit the spot with his post regarding the FFXI community.
I have "tried" to play FFXI myself and i have lvled a Dark Knight to lvl 36 with second class to lvl 34 but couldn't stand the Party for EXP kind of gameplay. I was and will always be a RP player who loves to explore the world around my character and who likes a great story line that i can follow. I don't care about how shiny an armor is, or how long my sword looks like, in the end all max lvl armors look the same because someone has written somewhere that this and that armor/weapon combination gives the best DEF/DPS.
The idea of AION seems to be promissing where you'll be able to customize an armorset that you think looks the best on you with the stats of a high end armor set. That gives a great feeling of diversity. Don't you think?
One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).
I think it's a great idea to be able to switch different classes if the situation demands it, ofc i think that there will be a primary class which you will be able to choose from the beginning and that the other classes will be only a basic support with which you won't be able to unlock the full deck of skills for the secondary classes. It's very solo friendly but i also believe that the endgame content will require a very strong relationship between group members which will be as group friendly as it was in FFXI and that would satisfy the FFXI fans as well, not only the Solo-ers which i agree aren't a great backbone for any MMORPG game. It is a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game after all and THERE IS and NEVER WAS any room for selfish, noobish, selfsufficient players in ANY games like those.
I'm realy looking forward for the game to play it and i hope i'll be able to test and help improve the aspects of the game when the close and open betas start.
Ultimately, I hope the game is balanced enough for casual and group-friendly activities. I hope it doesn't extend too far out to one end of the spectrum, this way it can appeal to both types of players: of casual and non-casual and even of those who love both. I think this is what they are aiming for, probably just a tiny bit more in favor of casual or the other (though personally I think it might be more group-friendly since these are the same people who made FFXI ya?) , because I think it might be impossible to attain true equality; but even though equality might not be possible, balance can still be achieved.
Hello. I am in love with wisdom. If I marry one, I can guarantee that I won't be faithful, since there are so many types of wisdom to love.
Ultimately, I hope the game is balanced enough for casual and group-friendly activities. I hope it doesn't extend too far out to one end of the spectrum, this way it can appeal to both types of players: of casual and non-casual and even of those who love both. I think this is what they are aiming for, probably just a tiny bit more in favor of casual or the other (though personally I think it might be more group-friendly since these are the same people who made FFXI ya?) , because I think it might be impossible to attain true equality; but even though equality might not be possible, balance can still be achieved.
In history, there has never been a game that achieved a "true" balance between casual and group friendly aspects. Eventually, one side wins over the other in terms of being more rewarding and being overal the better aspect to do. There was a Star Wars game that got close to achieve the equilibrium, but both aspects were watered down so much that it became a total mess.
Now, SE may be making the game a bit more solo friendly this time around, but if they want to attract the FF XIV crowd over, the group aspects ultimately have to be better than the solo and casual aspects. Like Sixpax, myself and others have stated, FF XIV has to be friendly and similar to the FF XI crowd, otherwise there's a good chance of FF XIV repeating EQ2 all over again.
Now, SE may be making the game a bit more solo friendly this time around, but if they want to attract the FF XIV crowd over, the group aspects ultimately have to be better than the solo and casual aspects. Like Sixpax, myself and others have stated, FF XIV has to be friendly and similar to the FF XI crowd, otherwise there's a good chance of FF XIV repeating EQ2 all over again.
first of I assume you mean the FF XI crowd in your first sentence.
second, almost all the threads on this forum ending up with the same handful of FF XI players saying "we don't want any change towards better solo or casual experience" gets really tiresome. you like the system in FF XI, we get it. but even if 100% of the FF XI player base would agree with it, it would be a more than foolish thing by SE to basically exclusively cater to them. if they want to keep FF XI going, they should create a game that plays significantly different to XI. unless they were lying when they said they want to keep XI going of course.
also, one of the things FF is known for is changing the game mechanics a lot. compare the FF to each other, apart from spin-offs they had big differences.
Now, SE may be making the game a bit more solo friendly this time around, but if they want to attract the FF XIV crowd over, the group aspects ultimately have to be better than the solo and casual aspects. Like Sixpax, myself and others have stated, FF XIV has to be friendly and similar to the FF XI crowd, otherwise there's a good chance of FF XIV repeating EQ2 all over again.
first of I assume you mean the FF XI crowd in your first sentence.
second, almost all the threads on this forum ending up with the same handful of FF XI players saying "we don't want any change towards better solo or casual experience" gets really tiresome. you like the system in FF XI, we get it. but even if 100% of the FF XI player base would agree with it, it would be a more than foolish thing by SE to basically exclusively cater to them. if they want to keep FF XI going, they should create a game that plays significantly different to XI. unless they were lying when they said they want to keep XI going of course.
also, one of the things FF is known for is changing the game mechanics a lot. compare the FF to each other, apart from spin-offs they had big differences.
I think as long as SE creates content that requires both types of participation (solo and group), making each type meaningful enough to be done, and challenging enough to be interesting, it'll be fine.
The problem arises, in my experience, when a developer creates two parallel tracks of content that almost never cross. In other words.. there's a solo-friendly track through the game, and a group-centric path through the game... neither side has any real benefit over the other in terms of "loot" (which is all many players ultimately care about anyway). The solo route requires less effort to organize, communicate and "share the spoils" with other people... so many prefer that route.
What exacerbates the situation is the way so many now are designed where "end game" is where the most meaningful content is. Thus, anything up 'til then is demoted to "useless filler" to be ground through as fast as possible... and again... when soloing is possible, it's usually the easiest/fastest route.
The closest they can get to "perfect" - in my opinion - would be to have the experience require fairly equal measures of both. For that to work, though, the solo-only and the group-only crowd are going to have to make a compromise and learn to accept, if not enjoy, doing content in a manner that they might not prefer as the norm. You know... bend a little.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Now, SE may be making the game a bit more solo friendly this time around, but if they want to attract the FF XIV crowd over, the group aspects ultimately have to be better than the solo and casual aspects. Like Sixpax, myself and others have stated, FF XIV has to be friendly and similar to the FF XI crowd, otherwise there's a good chance of FF XIV repeating EQ2 all over again.
first of I assume you mean the FF XI crowd in your first sentence.
second, almost all the threads on this forum ending up with the same handful of FF XI players saying "we don't want any change towards better solo or casual experience" gets really tiresome. you like the system in FF XI, we get it. but even if 100% of the FF XI player base would agree with it, it would be a more than foolish thing by SE to basically exclusively cater to them. if they want to keep FF XI going, they should create a game that plays significantly different to XI. unless they were lying when they said they want to keep XI going of course.
also, one of the things FF is known for is changing the game mechanics a lot. compare the FF to each other, apart from spin-offs they had big differences.
I think as long as SE creates content that requires both types of participation (solo and group), making each type meaningful enough to be done, and challenging enough to be interesting, it'll be fine.
The problem arises, in my experience, when a developer creates two parallel tracks of content that almost never cross. In other words.. there's a solo-friendly track through the game, and a group-centric path through the game... neither side has any real benefit over the other in terms of "loot" (which is all many players ultimately care about anyway). The solo route requires less effort to organize, communicate and "share the spoils" with other people... so many prefer that route.
What exacerbates the situation is the way so many now are designed where "end game" is where the most meaningful content is. Thus, anything up 'til then is demoted to "useless filler" to be ground through as fast as possible... and again... when soloing is possible, it's usually the easiest/fastest route.
The closest they can get to "perfect" - in my opinion - would be to have the experience require fairly equal measures of both. For that to work, though, the solo-only and the group-only crowd are going to have to make a compromise and learn to accept, if not enjoy, doing content in a manner that they might not prefer as the norm. You know... bend a little.
NiteWolf: Well of course FF XIV shouldn't be 100% like FF XI. There were problems with the game after all. What I mean is that FF XIV has to be game where a FF XI player would play FF XIV and say "this is fun and seems like an improved and polished version of FF XI with new game mechanics to boot." It doesn't to be exactly like FF XI, but it should provide a fun experience for those that enjoyed FF XI and for people who are new to it (and enjoy similar aspects).
To everyone in general: WSI Mike does sort of hit the hammer on this point. There should parts where it is possible to solo, but it wouldn't be as advantegous as doing it in a group. For example, the blacksmith role. By yourself, you could craft a sword (I'm just making this example up since I have no idea how this will work). But, if you had a friend or two helping you out, you could craft that sword much quicker (and in turn you help your friends out or give them equal shares of the profit if you decide to sell the sword). This makes soloing a wee bit easier and more convenient, but group play is in the end more of the stronger aspect.
Now, SE may be making the game a bit more solo friendly this time around, but if they want to attract the FF XIV crowd over, the group aspects ultimately have to be better than the solo and casual aspects. Like Sixpax, myself and others have stated, FF XIV has to be friendly and similar to the FF XI crowd, otherwise there's a good chance of FF XIV repeating EQ2 all over again.
first of I assume you mean the FF XI crowd in your first sentence.
second, almost all the threads on this forum ending up with the same handful of FF XI players saying "we don't want any change towards better solo or casual experience" gets really tiresome. you like the system in FF XI, we get it. but even if 100% of the FF XI player base would agree with it, it would be a more than foolish thing by SE to basically exclusively cater to them. if they want to keep FF XI going, they should create a game that plays significantly different to XI. unless they were lying when they said they want to keep XI going of course.
also, one of the things FF is known for is changing the game mechanics a lot. compare the FF to each other, apart from spin-offs they had big differences.
I think as long as SE creates content that requires both types of participation (solo and group), making each type meaningful enough to be done, and challenging enough to be interesting, it'll be fine.
The problem arises, in my experience, when a developer creates two parallel tracks of content that almost never cross. In other words.. there's a solo-friendly track through the game, and a group-centric path through the game... neither side has any real benefit over the other in terms of "loot" (which is all many players ultimately care about anyway). The solo route requires less effort to organize, communicate and "share the spoils" with other people... so many prefer that route.
What exacerbates the situation is the way so many now are designed where "end game" is where the most meaningful content is. Thus, anything up 'til then is demoted to "useless filler" to be ground through as fast as possible... and again... when soloing is possible, it's usually the easiest/fastest route.
The closest they can get to "perfect" - in my opinion - would be to have the experience require fairly equal measures of both. For that to work, though, the solo-only and the group-only crowd are going to have to make a compromise and learn to accept, if not enjoy, doing content in a manner that they might not prefer as the norm. You know... bend a little.
NiteWolf: Well of course FF XIV shouldn't be 100% like FF XI. There were problems with the game after all. What I mean is that FF XIV has to be game where a FF XI player would play FF XIV and say "this is fun and seems like an improved and polished version of FF XI with new game mechanics to boot." It doesn't to be exactly like FF XI, but it should provide a fun experience for those that enjoyed FF XI and for people who are new to it (and enjoy similar aspects).
To everyone in general: WSI Mike does sort of hit the hammer on this point. There should parts where it is possible to solo, but it wouldn't be as advantegous as doing it in a group. For example, the blacksmith role. By yourself, you could craft a sword (I'm just making this example up since I have no idea how this will work). But, if you had a friend or two helping you out, you could craft that sword much quicker (and in turn you help your friends out or give them equal shares of the profit if you decide to sell the sword). This makes soloing a wee bit easier and more convenient, but group play is in the end more of the stronger aspect.
Shared crafting i dare say thats the best idea ive ever heard. It will never happen of course, since the idea is too good and too original to ever come into to anygame for along time.
But i shall imagin in FFXI when my roomate was kicking himself because he lvled leather working and food when hes ran out of gil and could afford to skill up whatever craft. But imagin just having to (/shout Looking for blah blah smith to help craft blah blah item send /tell can reward). Somthing like that would totally improve teamwork with in the game.
certain item that can only be made through 2 or more ppl working together. RamenTheif7 you blew my mind with that idea
One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).
I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...
and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...
and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.
One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).
I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...
and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...
and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.
In my experience there is no community like this.
Yep...
It could almost be used as a sort of social experiment... how people behave when placed in a given "closed" environment where their actions have a direct effect on them among others around them.
For example...
Be cool and polite to others, a good reputation precedes you and you'll have a much easier time finding groups, being reinvited to future parties, etc.
Be a discourteous idiot, a bad reputation precedes you and you find yourself being rejected from parties, etc.
In a MMO like FFXI where cooperation with others is so crucial, being an ass is the best way to shoot yourself in the foot.
Here's an anecdotal example:
(I don't remember the guys name unfortunately; this was years ago)
I was leveling in Shakhrami Maze (back before Windy folk started going to the Dunes) in a party. We had a Taru BLM who was, to put it mildly, extremely difficult to deal with. He was barking orders at everyone, running off on his own and yelling at us for not following/protecting him... just a real miserable guy. I was the party leader at the time, so I sent him a /tell asking him to please cool down a bit and cooperate, that things would go more smoothly. He openly, in party chat, cursed me out and then dropped party.
Okay.... no problem, the bad apple had removed themself and there were plenty of other people seeking at the time. We found another mage and continued on.
Little while later, while we're fighting a worm or something, we see the BLM run past us and laugh... he was running toward the exit to Tahrongi. A few moments later, a goblin comes up and stops - it had been chasing him. Since this was before mobs de-spawned when they lost aggro, it turned and started attacking us. Luckily the mob we were already working on was nearly dead already, and we were able to take out the goblin. He came back to see the "fruits of his labor"... when he saw we weren't dying, he ran off... This time I said "okay... he might be trying it again.. so don't attack anything". Sure enough... he comes back with another goblin... We take it out.
The BLM stands around and waits, obviously waiting for us to fight something so we wouldn't be prepared for an add. After a while I say "let's just attack something, if it looks bad, we can zone. We're not far away. So we attack something we know we can take out fairly easily and that won't chase us if we have to run... a worm. Sure enough, he immediately runs into the room and grabs a goblin... and trains it back at us. Same thing.. we beat the worm then beat the Goblin.
I send the BLM a /tell "Thanks for helping with the mobs. Appreciate it!" He goes "I'm bringing a Wight back next time!". He never did, though... and that was that. We disbanded soon after.
Well... some time later, I'm in another party with people I've never met or partied with before - out in "Yotater Jungle" (as my friend calls it) - and we're looking for a nuker to set up Magic Bursts (back when parties actively SC'd/MB'd on a regular basis - ah, those were the days... anyway...). Someone says "There's a BLM lfg in Jeuno...". One of us asks "What's the name?". The person searching gives the name - it was the BLM from the Maze. All but the leader immediately goes "NO!" or some variation on that. The leader says "lol... wow... I guess that settles that". We go on to share our experiences with the BLM. The leader, just based on our accounts, blists him.
Some weeks later, someone asked "whatever happened to [the BLM]..." Turns out he'd cancelled his account and stopped playing... Why? Because no one would invite him to parties or involve him in events. Why? Because he was an ass to everyone and word got around.
He eventually came back and tried to "make amends" with people, changing his attitude, etc... It *kinda* worked, but many still wanted nothing to do with him.
That's just one example of several I could give.
In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.
This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).
I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...
and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...
and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.
In my experience there is no community like this.
Yep...
It could almost be used as a sort of social experiment... how people behave when placed in a given "closed" environment where their actions have a direct effect on them among others around them.
For example...
Be cool and polite to others, a good reputation precedes you and you'll have a much easier time finding groups, being reinvited to future parties, etc.
Be a discourteous idiot, a bad reputation precedes you and you find yourself being rejected from parties, etc.
In a MMO like FFXI where cooperation with others is so crucial, being an ass is the best way to shoot yourself in the foot.
Here's an anecdotal example:
(I don't remember the guys name unfortunately; this was years ago)
I was leveling in Shakhrami Maze (back before Windy folk started going to the Dunes) in a party. We had a Taru BLM who was, to put it mildly, extremely difficult to deal with. He was barking orders at everyone, running off on his own and yelling at us for not following/protecting him... just a real miserable guy. I was the party leader at the time, so I sent him a /tell asking him to please cool down a bit and cooperate, that things would go more smoothly. He openly, in party chat, cursed me out and then dropped party.
Okay.... no problem, the bad apple had removed themself and there were plenty of other people seeking at the time. We found another mage and continued on.
Little while later, while we're fighting a worm or something, we see the BLM run past us and laugh... he was running toward the exit to Tahrongi. A few moments later, a goblin comes up and stops - it had been chasing him. Since this was before mobs de-spawned when they lost aggro, it turned and started attacking us. Luckily the mob we were already working on was nearly dead already, and we were able to take out the goblin. He came back to see the "fruits of his labor"... when he saw we weren't dying, he ran off... This time I said "okay... he might be trying it again.. so don't attack anything". Sure enough... he comes back with another goblin... We take it out.
The BLM stands around and waits, obviously waiting for us to fight something so we wouldn't be prepared for an add. After a while I say "let's just attack something, if it looks bad, we can zone. We're not far away. So we attack something we know we can take out fairly easily and that won't chase us if we have to run... a worm. Sure enough, he immediately runs into the room and grabs a goblin... and trains it back at us. Same thing.. we beat the worm then beat the Goblin.
I send the BLM a /tell "Thanks for helping with the mobs. Appreciate it!" He goes "I'm bringing a Wight back next time!". He never did, though... and that was that. We disbanded soon after.
Well... some time later, I'm in another party with people I've never met or partied with before - out in "Yotater Jungle" (as my friend calls it) - and we're looking for a nuker to set up Magic Bursts (back when parties actively SC'd/MB'd on a regular basis - ah, those were the days... anyway...). Someone says "There's a BLM lfg in Jeuno...". One of us asks "What's the name?". The person searching gives the name - it was the BLM from the Maze. All but the leader immediately goes "NO!" or some variation on that. The leader says "lol... wow... I guess that settles that". We go on to share our experiences with the BLM. The leader, just based on our accounts, blists him.
Some weeks later, someone asked "whatever happened to [the BLM]..." Turns out he'd cancelled his account and stopped playing... Why? Because no one would invite him to parties or involve him in events. Why? Because he was an ass to everyone and word got around.
He eventually came back and tried to "make amends" with people, changing his attitude, etc... It *kinda* worked, but many still wanted nothing to do with him.
That's just one example of several I could give.
In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.
This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.
The more the devs sacrifice partying in exchange for soloing, the more idiots we will see playing. Sad, but you can't have the cake and eat it too.
Expect the community to be worse than in FFXI by miles, but we can still be hopeful that grouping wil have more emphasis than in WoW etc. and the community would be at least better than in that game.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).
I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...
and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...
and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.
In my experience there is no community like this.
In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.
This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.
^^^^
THIS
Hopefully SE "hears us" eh?
I should give a positive version of that scenario, I think, to balance it out...
Without going into as long as story about it...
There's many times I've been in groups where we'll be looking for someone to tank or heal, etc... While we're searching, someone will say "There's a PLD looking"... We ask the name and when it's given, people will say "Yes!! Invite them! I've partied with them before and they are awesome".
There's one person in particular I used to recommend all the time.. a Taru who was one of the top 3 Paladins, easily, that I'd ever grouped with. We called him "TaruTank (tm)" for fun. Several times when I'd recommend him, someone else in the group would say "I've heard about him, he's supposed to be a really great player". Very skilled/knowledgable player, and a great personality to boot.
Same goes for personality... you could mention someone in conversation and another person would say "Oh, I know them. They're a great guy." or "So-and-so rocks!"
So it definitely goes both ways.
Cheesey as it might sound, there are a few on Pandemonium that rose to the level of "mini-celebrity", so to speak... Seems everyone knew and liked them.
I've seen few other MMOs where the same could be said of people standing out in the community that much. Lineage 2 has a similar community; some people are well-known by reputation alone, for better or worse.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I miss those days of SC/MB!! Even bards could participate!!
WSIMIke - you are so dead on. That is what FFXI so awesome. The community was close-knit.. Well you can say there were sub-communities contained within the main just due to the sheer fact the servers were world-wide. It was great when those sub-communities crossed and cooperated (this was not always the case of course - stuff happens like in any other mmorpg).
The idea that you had oppurtunities to ask high levels to assist you in level cap quests, AF quests, etc. I did like that as well.
And you are right, this type of model FFXI fashioned itself around did weed out the monkies, for the most part. At least the type of monkies Mike described. There were other monkies such as those who thought they were Vana'diels gift to mankind.. That's for another time of course.
I welcome the idea of having some soloability for folks like me - I am married, I have a 3 year old (when she's up and about I afk SO MUCH! LOL) and I work full time. I do not want the soloability that allows me to get max level in a short amount of time - no way. To me that cheapens the game and it doesn't cause me to respect my character whatsoever. But just enough for those times that I do afk a great deal that I can at least get stuff done. When I need a group then I proceed accordingly. I do not want to see so much soloability that it kills the close-knit community mentality.
I miss those days of SC/MB!! Even bards could participate!!
WSIMIke - you are so dead on. That is what FFXI so awesome. The community was close-knit.. Well you can say there were sub-communities contained within the main just due to the sheer fact the servers were world-wide. It was great when those sub-communities crossed and cooperated (this was not always the case of course - stuff happens like in any other mmorpg). The idea that you had oppurtunities to ask high levels to assist you in level cap quests, AF quests, etc. I did like that as well. And you are right, this type of model FFXI fashioned itself around did weed out the monkies, for the most part. At least the type of monkies Mike described. There were other monkies such as those who thought they were Vana'diels gift to mankind.. That's for another time of course. I welcome the idea of having some soloability for folks like me - I am married, I have a 3 year old (when she's up and about I afk SO MUCH! LOL) and I work full time. I do not want the soloability that allows me to get max level in a short amount of time - no way. To me that cheapens the game and it doesn't cause me to respect my character whatsoever. But just enough for those times that I do afk a great deal that I can at least get stuff done. When I need a group then I proceed accordingly. I do want to see so much soloability that it kills the close-knit community mentality.
I'm pretty sure you meant "don't want to see" in that blue bit :-p.
And I agree... FFXI wasn't/isn't without its boneheads... good thing is, they tend to stick to their own group.
And about the SC/MB.. Yeah, used to be really fun working those out and then nailing them perfectly... There was the odd time that the mage would have an "oops" moment and cast a -ga spell accidentally, ticking off a nearby mandy or something and probably causing a mess. But that was part of the fun. Those frantic races to the Yuhtunga zone line were great lol.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Originally posted by RamenThief7 NiteWolf: Well of course FF XIV shouldn't be 100% like FF XI. There were problems with the game after all. What I mean is that FF XIV has to be game where a FF XI player would play FF XIV and say "this is fun and seems like an improved and polished version of FF XI with new game mechanics to boot." It doesn't to be exactly like FF XI, but it should provide a fun experience for those that enjoyed FF XI and for people who are new to it (and enjoy similar aspects). To everyone in general: WSI Mike does sort of hit the hammer on this point. There should parts where it is possible to solo, but it wouldn't be as advantegous as doing it in a group. For example, the blacksmith role. By yourself, you could craft a sword (I'm just making this example up since I have no idea how this will work). But, if you had a friend or two helping you out, you could craft that sword much quicker (and in turn you help your friends out or give them equal shares of the profit if you decide to sell the sword). This makes soloing a wee bit easier and more convenient, but group play is in the end more of the stronger aspect.
well that is the question, isn't it? does SE want to create a game that most FF XI players would want to play? by doing that they'll cut themselves off a big portion of a solid subscription base since with the time-commitment needed for the games it would be highly unlikely ppl would be playing both. And they don't have to worry too much about ppl getting so disappointed in or annoyed about XIV to not play XI anymore since, as was mentioned multiple times over multiple threads, there's no game of that type out there.
about balancing the solo/group thing, it sure is a tricky matter as WSI mentioned. however forced grouping is never ever a good idea if you want to get the casual player in your game (which is a declared goal of SE). A very simple solution was used in Guild Wars, namely henchmen. you always need a group since soloing is mostly impossible, but if you can't find enough ppl or don't feel like searching, you can get npcs who travel with you. you won't manage the most difficult areas with them, but you get far enough in the story if you want. And you still have to do learn how to properly interact with your group. a system like that would be one option to have both solo and group play and a necessity to know what you're doing.
Comments
Ironic combination of statements there. Many would argue, and I would agree, that a big reason why FFXI has such a great community is *because* so much of it required people to group up and work together. When you're in a party for 3 or 4 hours grinding away, or working through some mission, etc... You get to talking, you get to know people and your friends list adds up.
Also, not to sound elitist (because I can't stand elitism, myself), but I think the more group-centric focus of the game has kept away much of the solo/lone-wolf players who would, perhaps, have otherwise steered the community in a very different direction.
Though I've had my share of gripes with other people, and don't like some of the decisions they've collectively made (most recently how Campaign + Level Sync + FoV has all but killed normal xp parties, outside of skillup parties)... I have to say the FFXI community has been, by and large, among the best I've ever been part of in any MMO I've played. Matrix Online's, in beta and for a time after launch, was awesome as well, but died off when that game nose-dived.
Even here on these forums, you can see a definite "quality" in the people who post on the FFXI and now the FFXIV forums than you do in most other MMOs forums. Significantly less flaming... We don't suffer trouble-makers nearly as much as other games' forums do... and even when they come around, they're typically dealt with more gracefully.
All in all, I'd say the FFXI community is a pretty damn kick-ass group of people, and I *really* hope to see that extend into FFXIV.
As for the next bit...
That's an interesting point-of-view... but I dont' think it's necessarily warranted. FFXI has been, without a doubt, a very successful MMO. Could it be more popular? Of course. However, being the #4 most popular MMO after 6 years or so is nothing to sneeze at - especially for a game that's often considered "niche" in the genre.
But... we shall see.
Beautiful thoughts here WSI Mike. I've seen many people coming here talking about how FF XIV will make more money and be more successful if it was more casual and solo friendly, yet they do not see our view.
Perhaps I should create a "Why FF XIV shouldn't be casual friendy AND solo friendly" thread to discuss this...
They have everything to gain since its a new title in the roman numerals series
The Final Fantasy roman numeral series is legend in a regards to having the best storyline. There are few books, movies, or tv series that have such involed storylines, But all storys must come to an end so a new tail can be told
So in this new game we get Final Fantasy's classic changes diffent game play, more customised avatars, and a new story.
Final Fanasy has always changed its style trying to evolve it something better. So understanding that I will go and play this game with an open mind beleaving that FFXI the game I played and loved for 3 years has evolved again into FFXIV an mmo that i can enjoy for many more years
My hair turns blond when i got out in the sun
They have everything to gain since its a new title in the roman numerals series
The Final Fantasy roman numeral series is legend in a regards to having the best storyline. There are few books, movies, or tv series that have such involed storylines, But all storys must come to an end so a new tail can be told
So in this new game we get Final Fantasy's classic changes diffent game play, more customised avatars, and a new story.
Final Fanasy has always changed its style trying to evolve it something better. So understanding that I will go and play this game with an open mind beleaving that FFXI the game I played and loved for 3 years has evolved again into FFXIV an mmo that i can enjoy for many more years
I havnt played FFXl but have heard its a good game. Does this mean Xl will close or will it keep servers open after the new game releases?
Well, they've already pretty plainly stated that none of those will occur, no offense. And as others have stated, it makes no sense from a business point of view to not follow through with their plan to make the game more casual/solo oriented. I've talked to a number of long time FFXI players, and they are already writing the game off (though of course many more are excited). I don't really blame them because if you've invested as much time as some have in FFXI, it would be difficult to throw away that sense of accomplishment. Luckily for SE, the less hardcore who liked FFXI but left because of forced grouping (one of the largest reasons for a drop off in subs, I'm sure) will definitely be on board for FFXIV.
Even if you ignore the whole business side of the arguement, and only worry about the community, I think it would still be fine as a solo game. Just because forced grouping resulted in a tight-knit community in FFXI doesn't prove it is the only means of achieving this goal. Not only that, but it makes more sense from a community standpoint to keep the games different because a great deal of the elitism that would have otherwise taken root in FFXIV will stay in FFXI, and the casual crowd will be able to play a game they enjoy without adding their frustration to the FFXI community.
I'm not saying that there should be no incentive to group, but forcing it is a different matter entirely. Having both final fantasy MMOs only cater to a hardcore niche is unfair to fans in such a widely popular IP as well. I'm confident SE will find a reasonable balance, but it will and should definitely be toward the casual side for FFXIV, as they intend.
No, SE has stated multiple times that they plan to keep supporting FFXI as long as the playerbase does. They intend to operate both games simultaneously and parallel to eachother.
They have everything to gain since its a new title in the roman numerals series
The Final Fantasy roman numeral series is legend in a regards to having the best storyline. There are few books, movies, or tv series that have such involed storylines, But all storys must come to an end so a new tail can be told
So in this new game we get Final Fantasy's classic changes diffent game play, more customised avatars, and a new story.
Final Fanasy has always changed its style trying to evolve it something better. So understanding that I will go and play this game with an open mind beleaving that FFXI the game I played and loved for 3 years has evolved again into FFXIV an mmo that i can enjoy for many more years
I havnt played FFXl but have heard its a good game. Does this mean Xl will close or will it keep servers open after the new game releases?
I wonderd that myself. I supose it will all depend on the gamers
Example "Everquest - Everquest 2" when Everquest 2 came out everone was like omg i cant wait it gone be the best game ever all new graphics the largest active world in ever made with npc char that had lives of there own so you would have to run around trying to find them in certain places in certain times of the day or something like that. SOOO~ everyone quit Everquest 1 and went over to Everquest 2. 1 month after the free subcrisption finishs 90% go back to Everquest 1. Everquest II was just to different no one excepted it. And so Everquest 2 joins the ranks of failed MMO
Just so you know 90% is the number i was told by my friend who was sucked in by the hype of the new game. As for the reason everyone left well im sure it changes from person to person. Im just telling you what my friend told me.
My hair turns blond when i got out in the sun
The problem with the whole "appeal to a new crowd" logic is this: a lot of the people who didn't get involved with FFXI aren't the least bit interested in FFXIV. All they see is "another Asian grinder", even though that may not even be the case. So the crowd that SE might be trying to reach by making it different from FFXI could very well not even bother trying it and the effort is wasted. Meanwhile, the people who loved FFXI could very well try out FFXIV and get turned off because they are expecting the same type game. So it's possible they wind up appealing to neither crowd. That happened with EQ2 (the people that didn't like EQ had no interest in it, and people who did like EQ were turned off by it), and Warhammer as well.
I'm not saying that will definitely happen to FFXIV, but it is something to consider.
Well i have read all the posts throu here and i must say that i understand and support WSIMike and i think that he has exactly hit the spot with his post regarding the FFXI community.
I have "tried" to play FFXI myself and i have lvled a Dark Knight to lvl 36 with second class to lvl 34 but couldn't stand the Party for EXP kind of gameplay. I was and will always be a RP player who loves to explore the world around my character and who likes a great story line that i can follow. I don't care about how shiny an armor is, or how long my sword looks like, in the end all max lvl armors look the same because someone has written somewhere that this and that armor/weapon combination gives the best DEF/DPS.
The idea of AION seems to be promissing where you'll be able to customize an armorset that you think looks the best on you with the stats of a high end armor set. That gives a great feeling of diversity. Don't you think?
One of the best things i encountered in FFXI was deffinetly how the groups were well organized and i loved the system where you didn't leave the party just like that saying: "It's lunch time, need to go!" and "Off we go" but everyone was kind enough to tell the others when he needs to go so that the party could find a replacment for the one who leaves. I never met such kind of group cooperation in any other MMORPGs i played (and believe me i tried almost any interesting P2P and F2P MMORPG out there).
I think it's a great idea to be able to switch different classes if the situation demands it, ofc i think that there will be a primary class which you will be able to choose from the beginning and that the other classes will be only a basic support with which you won't be able to unlock the full deck of skills for the secondary classes. It's very solo friendly but i also believe that the endgame content will require a very strong relationship between group members which will be as group friendly as it was in FFXI and that would satisfy the FFXI fans as well, not only the Solo-ers which i agree aren't a great backbone for any MMORPG game. It is a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game after all and THERE IS and NEVER WAS any room for selfish, noobish, selfsufficient players in ANY games like those.
I'm realy looking forward for the game to play it and i hope i'll be able to test and help improve the aspects of the game when the close and open betas start.
Ultimately, I hope the game is balanced enough for casual and group-friendly activities. I hope it doesn't extend too far out to one end of the spectrum, this way it can appeal to both types of players: of casual and non-casual and even of those who love both. I think this is what they are aiming for, probably just a tiny bit more in favor of casual or the other (though personally I think it might be more group-friendly since these are the same people who made FFXI ya?) , because I think it might be impossible to attain true equality; but even though equality might not be possible, balance can still be achieved.
Hello. I am in love with wisdom. If I marry one, I can guarantee that I won't be faithful, since there are so many types of wisdom to love.
In history, there has never been a game that achieved a "true" balance between casual and group friendly aspects. Eventually, one side wins over the other in terms of being more rewarding and being overal the better aspect to do. There was a Star Wars game that got close to achieve the equilibrium, but both aspects were watered down so much that it became a total mess.
Now, SE may be making the game a bit more solo friendly this time around, but if they want to attract the FF XIV crowd over, the group aspects ultimately have to be better than the solo and casual aspects. Like Sixpax, myself and others have stated, FF XIV has to be friendly and similar to the FF XI crowd, otherwise there's a good chance of FF XIV repeating EQ2 all over again.
first of I assume you mean the FF XI crowd in your first sentence.
second, almost all the threads on this forum ending up with the same handful of FF XI players saying "we don't want any change towards better solo or casual experience" gets really tiresome. you like the system in FF XI, we get it. but even if 100% of the FF XI player base would agree with it, it would be a more than foolish thing by SE to basically exclusively cater to them. if they want to keep FF XI going, they should create a game that plays significantly different to XI. unless they were lying when they said they want to keep XI going of course.
also, one of the things FF is known for is changing the game mechanics a lot. compare the FF to each other, apart from spin-offs they had big differences.
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first of I assume you mean the FF XI crowd in your first sentence.
second, almost all the threads on this forum ending up with the same handful of FF XI players saying "we don't want any change towards better solo or casual experience" gets really tiresome. you like the system in FF XI, we get it. but even if 100% of the FF XI player base would agree with it, it would be a more than foolish thing by SE to basically exclusively cater to them. if they want to keep FF XI going, they should create a game that plays significantly different to XI. unless they were lying when they said they want to keep XI going of course.
also, one of the things FF is known for is changing the game mechanics a lot. compare the FF to each other, apart from spin-offs they had big differences.
I think as long as SE creates content that requires both types of participation (solo and group), making each type meaningful enough to be done, and challenging enough to be interesting, it'll be fine.
The problem arises, in my experience, when a developer creates two parallel tracks of content that almost never cross. In other words.. there's a solo-friendly track through the game, and a group-centric path through the game... neither side has any real benefit over the other in terms of "loot" (which is all many players ultimately care about anyway). The solo route requires less effort to organize, communicate and "share the spoils" with other people... so many prefer that route.
What exacerbates the situation is the way so many now are designed where "end game" is where the most meaningful content is. Thus, anything up 'til then is demoted to "useless filler" to be ground through as fast as possible... and again... when soloing is possible, it's usually the easiest/fastest route.
The closest they can get to "perfect" - in my opinion - would be to have the experience require fairly equal measures of both. For that to work, though, the solo-only and the group-only crowd are going to have to make a compromise and learn to accept, if not enjoy, doing content in a manner that they might not prefer as the norm. You know... bend a little.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
first of I assume you mean the FF XI crowd in your first sentence.
second, almost all the threads on this forum ending up with the same handful of FF XI players saying "we don't want any change towards better solo or casual experience" gets really tiresome. you like the system in FF XI, we get it. but even if 100% of the FF XI player base would agree with it, it would be a more than foolish thing by SE to basically exclusively cater to them. if they want to keep FF XI going, they should create a game that plays significantly different to XI. unless they were lying when they said they want to keep XI going of course.
also, one of the things FF is known for is changing the game mechanics a lot. compare the FF to each other, apart from spin-offs they had big differences.
I think as long as SE creates content that requires both types of participation (solo and group), making each type meaningful enough to be done, and challenging enough to be interesting, it'll be fine.
The problem arises, in my experience, when a developer creates two parallel tracks of content that almost never cross. In other words.. there's a solo-friendly track through the game, and a group-centric path through the game... neither side has any real benefit over the other in terms of "loot" (which is all many players ultimately care about anyway). The solo route requires less effort to organize, communicate and "share the spoils" with other people... so many prefer that route.
What exacerbates the situation is the way so many now are designed where "end game" is where the most meaningful content is. Thus, anything up 'til then is demoted to "useless filler" to be ground through as fast as possible... and again... when soloing is possible, it's usually the easiest/fastest route.
The closest they can get to "perfect" - in my opinion - would be to have the experience require fairly equal measures of both. For that to work, though, the solo-only and the group-only crowd are going to have to make a compromise and learn to accept, if not enjoy, doing content in a manner that they might not prefer as the norm. You know... bend a little.
NiteWolf: Well of course FF XIV shouldn't be 100% like FF XI. There were problems with the game after all. What I mean is that FF XIV has to be game where a FF XI player would play FF XIV and say "this is fun and seems like an improved and polished version of FF XI with new game mechanics to boot." It doesn't to be exactly like FF XI, but it should provide a fun experience for those that enjoyed FF XI and for people who are new to it (and enjoy similar aspects).
To everyone in general: WSI Mike does sort of hit the hammer on this point. There should parts where it is possible to solo, but it wouldn't be as advantegous as doing it in a group. For example, the blacksmith role. By yourself, you could craft a sword (I'm just making this example up since I have no idea how this will work). But, if you had a friend or two helping you out, you could craft that sword much quicker (and in turn you help your friends out or give them equal shares of the profit if you decide to sell the sword). This makes soloing a wee bit easier and more convenient, but group play is in the end more of the stronger aspect.
first of I assume you mean the FF XI crowd in your first sentence.
second, almost all the threads on this forum ending up with the same handful of FF XI players saying "we don't want any change towards better solo or casual experience" gets really tiresome. you like the system in FF XI, we get it. but even if 100% of the FF XI player base would agree with it, it would be a more than foolish thing by SE to basically exclusively cater to them. if they want to keep FF XI going, they should create a game that plays significantly different to XI. unless they were lying when they said they want to keep XI going of course.
also, one of the things FF is known for is changing the game mechanics a lot. compare the FF to each other, apart from spin-offs they had big differences.
I think as long as SE creates content that requires both types of participation (solo and group), making each type meaningful enough to be done, and challenging enough to be interesting, it'll be fine.
The problem arises, in my experience, when a developer creates two parallel tracks of content that almost never cross. In other words.. there's a solo-friendly track through the game, and a group-centric path through the game... neither side has any real benefit over the other in terms of "loot" (which is all many players ultimately care about anyway). The solo route requires less effort to organize, communicate and "share the spoils" with other people... so many prefer that route.
What exacerbates the situation is the way so many now are designed where "end game" is where the most meaningful content is. Thus, anything up 'til then is demoted to "useless filler" to be ground through as fast as possible... and again... when soloing is possible, it's usually the easiest/fastest route.
The closest they can get to "perfect" - in my opinion - would be to have the experience require fairly equal measures of both. For that to work, though, the solo-only and the group-only crowd are going to have to make a compromise and learn to accept, if not enjoy, doing content in a manner that they might not prefer as the norm. You know... bend a little.
NiteWolf: Well of course FF XIV shouldn't be 100% like FF XI. There were problems with the game after all. What I mean is that FF XIV has to be game where a FF XI player would play FF XIV and say "this is fun and seems like an improved and polished version of FF XI with new game mechanics to boot." It doesn't to be exactly like FF XI, but it should provide a fun experience for those that enjoyed FF XI and for people who are new to it (and enjoy similar aspects).
To everyone in general: WSI Mike does sort of hit the hammer on this point. There should parts where it is possible to solo, but it wouldn't be as advantegous as doing it in a group. For example, the blacksmith role. By yourself, you could craft a sword (I'm just making this example up since I have no idea how this will work). But, if you had a friend or two helping you out, you could craft that sword much quicker (and in turn you help your friends out or give them equal shares of the profit if you decide to sell the sword). This makes soloing a wee bit easier and more convenient, but group play is in the end more of the stronger aspect.
Shared crafting i dare say thats the best idea ive ever heard. It will never happen of course, since the idea is too good and too original to ever come into to anygame for along time.
But i shall imagin in FFXI when my roomate was kicking himself because he lvled leather working and food when hes ran out of gil and could afford to skill up whatever craft. But imagin just having to (/shout Looking for blah blah smith to help craft blah blah item send /tell can reward). Somthing like that would totally improve teamwork with in the game.
certain item that can only be made through 2 or more ppl working together. RamenTheif7 you blew my mind with that idea
My hair turns blond when i got out in the sun
I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...
and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...
and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.
In my experience there is no community like this.
I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...
and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...
and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.
In my experience there is no community like this.
Yep...
It could almost be used as a sort of social experiment... how people behave when placed in a given "closed" environment where their actions have a direct effect on them among others around them.
For example...
Be cool and polite to others, a good reputation precedes you and you'll have a much easier time finding groups, being reinvited to future parties, etc.
Be a discourteous idiot, a bad reputation precedes you and you find yourself being rejected from parties, etc.
In a MMO like FFXI where cooperation with others is so crucial, being an ass is the best way to shoot yourself in the foot.
Here's an anecdotal example:
(I don't remember the guys name unfortunately; this was years ago)
I was leveling in Shakhrami Maze (back before Windy folk started going to the Dunes) in a party. We had a Taru BLM who was, to put it mildly, extremely difficult to deal with. He was barking orders at everyone, running off on his own and yelling at us for not following/protecting him... just a real miserable guy. I was the party leader at the time, so I sent him a /tell asking him to please cool down a bit and cooperate, that things would go more smoothly. He openly, in party chat, cursed me out and then dropped party.
Okay.... no problem, the bad apple had removed themself and there were plenty of other people seeking at the time. We found another mage and continued on.
Little while later, while we're fighting a worm or something, we see the BLM run past us and laugh... he was running toward the exit to Tahrongi. A few moments later, a goblin comes up and stops - it had been chasing him. Since this was before mobs de-spawned when they lost aggro, it turned and started attacking us. Luckily the mob we were already working on was nearly dead already, and we were able to take out the goblin. He came back to see the "fruits of his labor"... when he saw we weren't dying, he ran off... This time I said "okay... he might be trying it again.. so don't attack anything". Sure enough... he comes back with another goblin... We take it out.
The BLM stands around and waits, obviously waiting for us to fight something so we wouldn't be prepared for an add. After a while I say "let's just attack something, if it looks bad, we can zone. We're not far away. So we attack something we know we can take out fairly easily and that won't chase us if we have to run... a worm. Sure enough, he immediately runs into the room and grabs a goblin... and trains it back at us. Same thing.. we beat the worm then beat the Goblin.
I send the BLM a /tell "Thanks for helping with the mobs. Appreciate it!" He goes "I'm bringing a Wight back next time!". He never did, though... and that was that. We disbanded soon after.
Well... some time later, I'm in another party with people I've never met or partied with before - out in "Yotater Jungle" (as my friend calls it) - and we're looking for a nuker to set up Magic Bursts (back when parties actively SC'd/MB'd on a regular basis - ah, those were the days... anyway...). Someone says "There's a BLM lfg in Jeuno...". One of us asks "What's the name?". The person searching gives the name - it was the BLM from the Maze. All but the leader immediately goes "NO!" or some variation on that. The leader says "lol... wow... I guess that settles that". We go on to share our experiences with the BLM. The leader, just based on our accounts, blists him.
Some weeks later, someone asked "whatever happened to [the BLM]..." Turns out he'd cancelled his account and stopped playing... Why? Because no one would invite him to parties or involve him in events. Why? Because he was an ass to everyone and word got around.
He eventually came back and tried to "make amends" with people, changing his attitude, etc... It *kinda* worked, but many still wanted nothing to do with him.
That's just one example of several I could give.
In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.
This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...
and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...
and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.
In my experience there is no community like this.
Yep...
It could almost be used as a sort of social experiment... how people behave when placed in a given "closed" environment where their actions have a direct effect on them among others around them.
For example...
Be cool and polite to others, a good reputation precedes you and you'll have a much easier time finding groups, being reinvited to future parties, etc.
Be a discourteous idiot, a bad reputation precedes you and you find yourself being rejected from parties, etc.
In a MMO like FFXI where cooperation with others is so crucial, being an ass is the best way to shoot yourself in the foot.
Here's an anecdotal example:
(I don't remember the guys name unfortunately; this was years ago)
I was leveling in Shakhrami Maze (back before Windy folk started going to the Dunes) in a party. We had a Taru BLM who was, to put it mildly, extremely difficult to deal with. He was barking orders at everyone, running off on his own and yelling at us for not following/protecting him... just a real miserable guy. I was the party leader at the time, so I sent him a /tell asking him to please cool down a bit and cooperate, that things would go more smoothly. He openly, in party chat, cursed me out and then dropped party.
Okay.... no problem, the bad apple had removed themself and there were plenty of other people seeking at the time. We found another mage and continued on.
Little while later, while we're fighting a worm or something, we see the BLM run past us and laugh... he was running toward the exit to Tahrongi. A few moments later, a goblin comes up and stops - it had been chasing him. Since this was before mobs de-spawned when they lost aggro, it turned and started attacking us. Luckily the mob we were already working on was nearly dead already, and we were able to take out the goblin. He came back to see the "fruits of his labor"... when he saw we weren't dying, he ran off... This time I said "okay... he might be trying it again.. so don't attack anything". Sure enough... he comes back with another goblin... We take it out.
The BLM stands around and waits, obviously waiting for us to fight something so we wouldn't be prepared for an add. After a while I say "let's just attack something, if it looks bad, we can zone. We're not far away. So we attack something we know we can take out fairly easily and that won't chase us if we have to run... a worm. Sure enough, he immediately runs into the room and grabs a goblin... and trains it back at us. Same thing.. we beat the worm then beat the Goblin.
I send the BLM a /tell "Thanks for helping with the mobs. Appreciate it!" He goes "I'm bringing a Wight back next time!". He never did, though... and that was that. We disbanded soon after.
Well... some time later, I'm in another party with people I've never met or partied with before - out in "Yotater Jungle" (as my friend calls it) - and we're looking for a nuker to set up Magic Bursts (back when parties actively SC'd/MB'd on a regular basis - ah, those were the days... anyway...). Someone says "There's a BLM lfg in Jeuno...". One of us asks "What's the name?". The person searching gives the name - it was the BLM from the Maze. All but the leader immediately goes "NO!" or some variation on that. The leader says "lol... wow... I guess that settles that". We go on to share our experiences with the BLM. The leader, just based on our accounts, blists him.
Some weeks later, someone asked "whatever happened to [the BLM]..." Turns out he'd cancelled his account and stopped playing... Why? Because no one would invite him to parties or involve him in events. Why? Because he was an ass to everyone and word got around.
He eventually came back and tried to "make amends" with people, changing his attitude, etc... It *kinda* worked, but many still wanted nothing to do with him.
That's just one example of several I could give.
In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.
This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.
^^^^
THIS
The more the devs sacrifice partying in exchange for soloing, the more idiots we will see playing. Sad, but you can't have the cake and eat it too.
Expect the community to be worse than in FFXI by miles, but we can still be hopeful that grouping wil have more emphasis than in WoW etc. and the community would be at least better than in that game.
I loved it when people would tell you they were leaving the group...
and then tell you that that would wait for replacement...
and then tell you they had already organised the replacement who was arriving soon.
In my experience there is no community like this.
In FFXI's community, you were/are not "anonymous". Your actions/attitude do have consequences and word does get around. Though these days, with more soloing options, it's a bit easier to "blend into the woodwork".. but not completely.
This is an aspect I *really* hope is carried over to FFXIV in some way. I really liked that about FFXI.
^^^^
THIS
Hopefully SE "hears us" eh?
I should give a positive version of that scenario, I think, to balance it out...
Without going into as long as story about it...
There's many times I've been in groups where we'll be looking for someone to tank or heal, etc... While we're searching, someone will say "There's a PLD looking"... We ask the name and when it's given, people will say "Yes!! Invite them! I've partied with them before and they are awesome".
There's one person in particular I used to recommend all the time.. a Taru who was one of the top 3 Paladins, easily, that I'd ever grouped with. We called him "TaruTank (tm)" for fun. Several times when I'd recommend him, someone else in the group would say "I've heard about him, he's supposed to be a really great player". Very skilled/knowledgable player, and a great personality to boot.
Same goes for personality... you could mention someone in conversation and another person would say "Oh, I know them. They're a great guy." or "So-and-so rocks!"
So it definitely goes both ways.
Cheesey as it might sound, there are a few on Pandemonium that rose to the level of "mini-celebrity", so to speak... Seems everyone knew and liked them.
I've seen few other MMOs where the same could be said of people standing out in the community that much. Lineage 2 has a similar community; some people are well-known by reputation alone, for better or worse.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If I could pick one thing that i could bring over from ffxi to ffxiv. It would be what WSImike has been talking about.
The community. Of course the community is a direct result of grouping.
Everybody who has played ffxi for a long period has all kind of stories like WSImike has.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I miss those days of SC/MB!! Even bards could participate!!
WSIMIke - you are so dead on. That is what FFXI so awesome. The community was close-knit.. Well you can say there were sub-communities contained within the main just due to the sheer fact the servers were world-wide. It was great when those sub-communities crossed and cooperated (this was not always the case of course - stuff happens like in any other mmorpg).
The idea that you had oppurtunities to ask high levels to assist you in level cap quests, AF quests, etc. I did like that as well.
And you are right, this type of model FFXI fashioned itself around did weed out the monkies, for the most part. At least the type of monkies Mike described. There were other monkies such as those who thought they were Vana'diels gift to mankind.. That's for another time of course.
I welcome the idea of having some soloability for folks like me - I am married, I have a 3 year old (when she's up and about I afk SO MUCH! LOL) and I work full time. I do not want the soloability that allows me to get max level in a short amount of time - no way. To me that cheapens the game and it doesn't cause me to respect my character whatsoever. But just enough for those times that I do afk a great deal that I can at least get stuff done. When I need a group then I proceed accordingly. I do not want to see so much soloability that it kills the close-knit community mentality.
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I'm pretty sure you meant "don't want to see" in that blue bit :-p.
And I agree... FFXI wasn't/isn't without its boneheads... good thing is, they tend to stick to their own group.
And about the SC/MB.. Yeah, used to be really fun working those out and then nailing them perfectly... There was the odd time that the mage would have an "oops" moment and cast a -ga spell accidentally, ticking off a nearby mandy or something and probably causing a mess. But that was part of the fun. Those frantic races to the Yuhtunga zone line were great lol.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
haha Yes you were right. My mind races ahead of my fingers at times. I got it corrected. Thanks!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Final Fantasy XIV Core - Final Fantasy XIV Fansite
FFXIVCore.com on Twitter
FFXIVCore.com on Facebook
I felt the same way about the community in EverQuest a long time ago. Here's hoping FFXIV will have a great community as well.
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well that is the question, isn't it? does SE want to create a game that most FF XI players would want to play? by doing that they'll cut themselves off a big portion of a solid subscription base since with the time-commitment needed for the games it would be highly unlikely ppl would be playing both. And they don't have to worry too much about ppl getting so disappointed in or annoyed about XIV to not play XI anymore since, as was mentioned multiple times over multiple threads, there's no game of that type out there.
about balancing the solo/group thing, it sure is a tricky matter as WSI mentioned. however forced grouping is never ever a good idea if you want to get the casual player in your game (which is a declared goal of SE). A very simple solution was used in Guild Wars, namely henchmen. you always need a group since soloing is mostly impossible, but if you can't find enough ppl or don't feel like searching, you can get npcs who travel with you. you won't manage the most difficult areas with them, but you get far enough in the story if you want. And you still have to do learn how to properly interact with your group. a system like that would be one option to have both solo and group play and a necessity to know what you're doing.
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