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Blah Combat
Vhaln
Member Posts: 3,159
I haven't played much yet, but my first impression is pretty weak. The vast majority of MMOs are almost entirely about wack-a-mole combat, and while I've learned better than to hope new MMOs move past that to something more innovative, I do at least hope the combat itself is enjoyable. It's what I'll be doing a hell of a lot of, if I decide to stick with the game.
I actually thought CoH had one of the best combat systems, just in terms of the simple visceral enjoyment I got from smacking mobs around. It wore thin eventually, but kept me entertained long enough to get deeper into the game. As a side note, I didn't actually mind cool-downs. I thought they made for a good dynamic, that made a variety of attacks useful in cooldown optimizing combination. Anyhow, I thought CO would be comparable at least, if not even better. But I didn't expect to it be much worse.
I think there are a lot of details that make a good combat system, from the animations to the mechanics of what sort of button mashing the player will have to be doing, and I don't know if I want to get into all of it, but basically, the animations in CO feel like monotonous spam with little connection to opponents, and the button mashing seems to mainly consist of hitting the energy-building auto-attack, and then just whatever my best energy-spending attack is, as the energy bar fills up. It doesn't feel dynamic, it lacks oomph, it just feels lacklaster to me. Not terrible, but not good enough for me to have much interest in going through a whole lot of it, to see what the rest of the game is about.
Does it get any better, or is this game simply not for me?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Comments
Trust me, it's not for you. I'll keep looking though and I'll tell you when I found something you'll enjoy.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I think in general, all MMOs lack a certain oomph when it comes to combat. They are all the same. You click two to three buttons with the occasional special attack every once in awhile. The differences are generally the sparkly effects and the feeling of responsiveness. Some games like WoW, are very responsive which makes the combat feel more intuitive even though it is no different than any other MMO. Some games like WAR were horribly detached from your keystrokes to what happened onscreen (disclaimer: It was like this early on. I don't play WAR anymore so I don't know if this has changed).
CO is essentially the same as CoH when it comes to combat. What breaks the tedium is Blocking. Against the supervillians you will have to know how time and use blocking. Is it very exciting, new and fresh? Not really. But it adds an element (even if it's small in some cases) that makes CO combat a bit more interesting.
I think that bit on responsiveness is a good way of putting it. I know it's pretyt much the same old same old, but some games make me feel a lot more connected to the damage my character is doing (or even avoiding) and I guess that's where I'm not getting into CO. It lacks that, much like (I agree) WAR seemed to. I didn't feel that illusion of responsiveness was lacking in COH at all, though.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I agree CoH was very good at responsiveness. I think CO is the same. Do you have a decent rig? CO is much more taxing on hardware so that may be some of the reasons why the game feels more sluggish.
One thing I will note is clicking some in-game objects get weird sometimes. Again, hopefully Cryptic fixes that. It's basically tuning the game.
I've found the CO combat to be pretty good so far. To each their own, I suppose.
If you haven't figured out its really interesting combat, then it may not be for you.
It's not just random button mashing for sure.
You manage energy and use powers that actually increase your energy and do a little damage. You can build up some or tap the other powers and that changes how you use them. You've got a lot of ways to modify things. Like my gadgeteer can slap a bioheal on a target and anytime I attack him, he heals me a little. Thats really neat but I've got to have the energy to do it, so I have to decide "Do I go in and build up energy so I can slap this thing on him or just use my main sonic blaster power?"
The only thing that could make this better for me would be turn based/control of a party of heroes. Thats not going to happen, so I'll take an intricate and customizable combat system.
If you haven't figured out its really interesting combat, then it may not be for you.
It's not just random button mashing for sure.
You manage energy and use powers that actually increase your energy and do a little damage. You can build up some or tap the other powers and that changes how you use them. You've got a lot of ways to modify things. Like my gadgeteer can slap a bioheal on a target and anytime I attack him, he heals me a little. Thats really neat but I've got to have the energy to do it, so I have to decide "Do I go in and build up energy so I can slap this thing on him or just use my main sonic blaster power?"
The only thing that could make this better for me would be turn based/control of a party of heroes. Thats not going to happen, so I'll take an intricate and customizable combat system.
Yeah, you can do that, but it's not at all necessary. The combat is pretty easy and like the op said all you have to do is build up your energy and let loose with your best attack, you can change it up and complicate it sure, but in the end that's just you doing unnecessary stuff to make the boring combat seem more intuitive. There's very little need for teamwork or strategy, and even in those cases where you do need a team there is very little reason to do anything except pile on the damage. Maybe block now and again or use a hold, but in the end it's really all about spamming attacks.
My system seems to handle it well enough - first thing I did was open options and tune the graphics up - they're mostly on high settings, and I get no slowdown or choppiness at all.
I was just thinking though, the first attack we get is A TOGGLE. That alone, IMHO, is pretty bad. At least as far as responsiveness goes. I hit the toggle, and my character just spams these rapid-fire animations until the mob dies, or I turn the toggle off.
Doesn't help that I don't think too highly of the animations, like in the martial arts spec, punch, kick, punch, jumpkick, punch, kick, punch, jumpkick, over nd over, while I just sit there. I press 2 once or twice, and my character throws an extra little punch that does more damage, if I want the fight to end a little sooner.
Just really not a great system, from what I can tell. I know people complain about games where you have to press 1,2, 1, 3, 4, 1, 2, 1, etc, etc, or games like AOC with its superfluous combo system, but I think tying those extra keypresses to a variety of attacks helps make combat feel more viscerally enjoyable. Plus it just helps when animations look cool, and the "punch, kiick, punch, jumpkick" thing looks pretty lame, IMHO. Too fast, too evenly spaced, no dramatic oomph.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I agree with the OP...and I can't stand the flurry of 'active combat' mmos that have been released non-stop.
Fact is it is not better, its not more interactive, and its not any fun. It's a non-stop button mashing spam fest giving the user a fake feeling of doing something else than hitting a button, and nothing more. In particular with CO, I feel the same way as the OP, hit atuo attack and spam key 2 then back off and regen energy then spam more, all while taking massive damage, or unnoticeable damage from the mob as it dies.
I don't care if people insist that it is complex...because they are the same ones who claim it is less button mashing and more interactive. Really, why would I believe them about that, when they are so infatuated with spamming 3 keys 100x per battle rather than hitting the keys 4 times. I suppose if spamming keys is in fact more interactive, then, for sure its the most interactive, action packed combat ever...
Cryptic made CoH, and really have no excuse for sinking to the low of active combat. Cryptic should have thought more about their sale of the IP of City of Heroes, because they seem to have less luck with the same genera in a different universe. If they had actually attempted to make a City of Heroes 2, under a different name, and different or new IP, and not this mess, Cryptic would have gotten every single player from City of Heroes into their new game.
I'm doubting the fall of City of Heroes now, really, because I'm sure that most players from that fanbase will not be happy about the combat system, or the lack of powers and structure. I can pick any power I want...awesome, who cares, I use like what 5 attacks max. There's no structure past damage dealing...not sure why they even have heals, seems like if you need them you are most likely going to lose anyway from insane active combat mob damage spikes.
If only they had tried to make it a new City of Heroes that they could keep the rights to....
Why compare City of Heroes to CO? I dunno maybe because Cryptic made them both, and recruited players off CoH forums and even used the most desired features from CoH as selling points to CO. No, CoH was not my first mmorpg, but it was one of my favorite for awhile.
To the active combat fans...I really do hope you like the combat because I really can not stand it. I can't even figure out how people like it more than traditional mmo combat. To each his own I guess...
If you haven't figured out its really interesting combat, then it may not be for you.
It's not just random button mashing for sure.
You manage energy and use powers that actually increase your energy and do a little damage. You can build up some or tap the other powers and that changes how you use them. You've got a lot of ways to modify things. Like my gadgeteer can slap a bioheal on a target and anytime I attack him, he heals me a little. Thats really neat but I've got to have the energy to do it, so I have to decide "Do I go in and build up energy so I can slap this thing on him or just use my main sonic blaster power?"
The only thing that could make this better for me would be turn based/control of a party of heroes. Thats not going to happen, so I'll take an intricate and customizable combat system.
Yeah, you can do that, but it's not at all necessary. The combat is pretty easy and like the op said all you have to do is build up your energy and let loose with your best attack, you can change it up and complicate it sure, but in the end that's just you doing unnecessary stuff to make the boring combat seem more intuitive. There's very little need for teamwork or strategy, and even in those cases where you do need a team there is very little reason to do anything except pile on the damage. Maybe block now and again or use a hold, but in the end it's really all about spamming attacks.
I am salivating to face you in pvp.
Mobs at 7th level? Sure you could do that.
Let's see how it goes when you square off against someone who is thinking.
Oh yeah..show him who is boss, hit that 2 key 100 times like crazy and put him in his place...
Er doesn't seem that heroic when you actually say it aloud.
Not sure you should use the CO PvP system as a benchmark for dominance of 'skill', honestly.
I'm enjoying the combat. It's a bit different, which I think I like. I'm glad they did something different from CoH. CoH combat, like much of CoH, was repetitive. I'm actually enjoying the game. The animations on some of the stances are bit odd, but I like that you have a choice. (love the beast one)
Oh yeah..show him who is boss, hit that 2 key 100 times like crazy and put him in his place...
Er doesn't seem that heroic when you actually say it aloud.
Not sure you should use the CO PvP system as a benchmark for dominance of 'skill', honestly.
Sure, you could belittle a lot of things.
"Hey Gary, all you are doing is moving little men around a chess board" to Gary Kasparov
"Hey Wayne, way to ice skate and chase a little puck, good going."
"Oh boy, that guy shot a basket with a basketball"
I enjoy the tactical challenge of a good game of civilization, a good game of chess, a good game of basketball and I'd like to whoop some butt in pvp on CO.
so sue me, if that seems petty to you.
If you haven't figured out its really interesting combat, then it may not be for you.
It's not just random button mashing for sure.
You manage energy and use powers that actually increase your energy and do a little damage. You can build up some or tap the other powers and that changes how you use them. You've got a lot of ways to modify things. Like my gadgeteer can slap a bioheal on a target and anytime I attack him, he heals me a little. Thats really neat but I've got to have the energy to do it, so I have to decide "Do I go in and build up energy so I can slap this thing on him or just use my main sonic blaster power?"
The only thing that could make this better for me would be turn based/control of a party of heroes. Thats not going to happen, so I'll take an intricate and customizable combat system.
Yeah, you can do that, but it's not at all necessary. The combat is pretty easy and like the op said all you have to do is build up your energy and let loose with your best attack, you can change it up and complicate it sure, but in the end that's just you doing unnecessary stuff to make the boring combat seem more intuitive. There's very little need for teamwork or strategy, and even in those cases where you do need a team there is very little reason to do anything except pile on the damage. Maybe block now and again or use a hold, but in the end it's really all about spamming attacks.
I am salivating to face you in pvp.
Mobs at 7th level? Sure you could do that.
Let's see how it goes when you square off against someone who is thinking.
Of course PvP is different, but other than unlocking a few costume pieces PvP is pretty much just a tacked on feature to play around with when you're bored of everything else. I've been in quite a few PvP matches, I was in beta for 6 months. My win loss record is fair, not impressive but at least 50%, a lot of it has to do with who you are teamed up with.
Salivating... lol Is that a gun in your tights or are you just happy to see me?
all I am saying is, I am looking forward to seeing what thinking opponents do against me in pvp.
I am not a fan of twinked out WOW BG's or button mashers. I am however, all about 1:1 or larger scale balanced conflicts where you can test your strategies and you have to give it some thought.
Ultimately, CO today immersed me into the game and made me think as my character and so for that, it gets a win in my book. I got 5 characters up to about 5-7th today, all in all I am happy with how it looks so far.
If they borrowed PQ's from Warhammer Online, hopefully they'll take some instanced scenarios and let us hammer it out in PVP in the future.
I also enjoyed the combat. It wasn't twitchy, which I do not want. Not having any cooldowns was a little different, but the big thing for me was the charge up powers,and the blocking. I had to pay attention to the enemies charge up skill, so I could block it. I mean with the villians, not the henchmen. When I ignored that I was in trouble. I also enjoyed fighting multiple mobs. Every MMO I have played so far, if you have more than 2 enemies, you are in trouble. Fighting 3 to 5 at a time makes you FEEL more super-heroic. Is it all a sham of numbers, and button pushing? Of course. All video games are, even many twicth games have stats underneath and are nothing BUT button pushing . It was fun...I want to play more. Will I want to play in 6 months? Who knows? But single-player games have much shorter play lives than 6 months. If I get that much enjoyment out of it I will be happy. MMO's do not have to be played for years to be considered a fun experience.
The combat was one of the biggest turn offs for me and why I will not be buying this game.
I made a plethora of characters and tried out various skill sets in hopes of finding something that felt right and none of it did.
I felt no connection, in fact, I felt disconnected from the combat completely. Combat also lacked any OOMPH to it or depth, so while Im sitting here pushing my hot keys and seeing my characters go all nuts..it just felt wrong and hollow.
Look at the dreaded WoW and how when you hit something you felt that oomph of landing a sword blow and the combat felt much more connected, or Aion when you blast something with your Fire Bolt and you can feel that fire blast into them and knock them back. That is combat being connected, flowing well and having oomph behind it, all things which I felt CO lacked. I also agree in that I found CoH combat to be better done and feel better.
To top it all off aside from a janky blocking mechanic, combat is just to simple. I never feel any sense of danger, I just hit my hotkeys and move on. This is not a arcade action game like Golden Axe (ok ok that game was wayyy harder) but a MMO that offers risk vs. reward. CO has none of the risk I have seen as of yet or any depth to combat mechanics.
Exactly what I'm talking about. I think you just said it better than I did. I wonder why some people seem to feel this way, while others don't seem to even understand what I'm talking about. "To each his own," I know, but usually when someone doesn't like something, I can see what they're saying, and maybe just disagree. With this combat issue though, it's like people who enjoy it don't even see the issue at all.
Anyone know if there's a way to cancel pre-orders from gamestop / ebgames? It doesn't appear to be possible
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Guys, I think youre judging the game too much by the early levels. When youre a lowbie you dont have much end and ur end recovery sucks. It also doesnt help that you only have a couple attacks.
When you get higher in levels and spec out ur end & recovery your auto power fills ur end bar much faster and u can use more than one other attack before having your energy builder refill ur end bar.
You can also disable the energy builder from being a toggle and take multiple energy builders and just use them like you would in CoH, you just include them in an attack chain.
yea, you just walk in and tell them you want to cancel it. If you pre-ordered it online, then no i dont think you can cancel.
Online or at store? If at store, just go in an cancel, online pretty sure you have to call, or just remove the credit card.
I got into beta early yesterday afternoon and was excited to try this game, as I pre-ordered it. Love/hate the art direction, awesome character creator, great choice in powers, travel powers as well. Combat on the other hand. My wife and I both hated it.
If plays like a bad arcade game in my opinion. Mind you I only got right out of the second tutorial, but the gameplay was to blah to me. The blocking mechanic is nice, but makes it feel like this game was truely made to be on consoles.
The endurance mechanic is cool, but makes the rest of the gameplay feel like that is the main focus(if it changes later on nice, but so far really boring) I choose a variety of skills, a ranged attack for my build up, a pistol for my first attack, and a chainsaw for my third which was an aoe attack. It little feels like a button masher to me. I personally find the CoX combat to be more enjoyable, where as this has better effects with all the powers by far.
Again, the combat doesn't appeal to me, because if feels and the game plays like I'm play Captain america and the avengers, just with more attacks and in a 3d world.
That's just false/misleading information... Currently, there's only 1 endurance builder per character, unless they added a new patch yesterday or today. Furthermore, endurance builders deal as little as 1/10th to 1/20th the damage of many of the stronger attacks.
And I think I understand what the OP is talking about. Some people talked about this during the closed beta. The sense of impact, etc...
Explain this one to me. Its bad if a super hero game makes you feel like Captain America because, how?
So far, I haven't felt like Captain America. My gadgeteer digs his way across frosty north pops up and blasts some ice demons and then pops back down and digs away. That doesn't feel like Captain America, so I'd be curious what you mean by the one.
Probably not necessary at lower levels against trash mobs. Will likely become more important to manage your skills, taps and holds in later levels, endgame and in PVP.
What exactly are you expecting? There are techincal limitations to what can be done for MMOs because of the large number of players. To me, combat feels pretty fast so far. The tap and hold options do give a new interesting wrinkle compared to the current MMO standard (WoW).
Stop crying in my beer.
Gamestop pre orders you can cancel up until you receive the bonus item. Once you receive it they remove the option. I know for a fact you can complain enough to Help/Support to get them to cancel it, but make sure you really want to. I had to do this once because I preordeed online and then got scared about the grace period so I preordered at the store instead. They said they wouldn't refund it and I explained the situation and they went ahead and cancelled.