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Game Guard and Microsoft
Since there has been a lot of discussions regarding nProtect's Game Guard, there is one that has kind of alarmed me.
As far as I'm informed, MMO hacking tools forced nProtect to make GG much more invasive inside the user's system, reaching from various security programs all the way inside the Windows Core files (hooking also on some irrelevant applications, such as MSPaint!). In my humble opinion, it's kind of extreme. But anyway.
Point being is that a code injection inside the Windows Kernel files produces a violation of the EULA (End User License Agreement) that every user signs with Microsoft when installing Windows.
So, it's a kind of a dilemma here. Should one agree to install Aion and Game Guard, finds himself/herself violating the Windows EULA. As far as I know, in Korea and China, this part of the agreement is different, since those countries have laws regarding security that allow manufacturers to directly inject code inside an Operating System's core files. I suppose Microsoft has made an exception for that specific reason in their EULA there. This though, is not the case with the US or the EU (and Oceania for that matter).
Aion is a beautiful game, but I am not certain about Game Guard's role in all of this. It's safety features could be the cause of argument, but it's not something that bothers me personally.
Any ideas on this matter?
Everything in life is based on one word: Respect.
Comments
i agree with the op in this. I for one have tried to minimize the risc bij making a clean copy of windows 7 on a external satadisc and booting my machine from this while disabling the other hd in the bios. Its not the perfect solution i know, but alteast like this i have some idea about what files are beeing misused. I wish a virtual machine would be powerfull anough to run aion... anyone tried this and succeed??
mm gg is a nightmare,its one of the many reason i wont play aion
dont know if you remember ,companies in the past used amother toy similar to this to protect music
apple and some other booted that feature (scared of lawsuit probably)
cant recall the exact name but it was nasty as nasty can be
gameguard is the same,it opens a door to potential problem we dont see yet
espacially hacker ,why i pay for norton etc and get security update from mc if gameguard
is invasive
microsoft should block gameguard if it goes where it shouldn t
If my memory serves me well, people have tried in on a virtual machine -so far on a Mac running Windows on a VM-, but Game Guard could not detect the files it needed to inject its code. As a result, Aion couldn't start.
Everything in life is based on one word: Respect.
DrBaltazar,
Your proposal is very interesting and I would really like to know what Microsoft has to say in the matter. I believe they have changed some of their code in Windows 7 to avoid some tampering, but I haven't read -so far- any official announcement and therefore I can't be certain of what is really going on.
I was one of the people that pre-purchased Aion's collector edition. The moment I found out (early stages of the open beta) about the Game Guard / Microsoft problem, I expressed my concerns to NCSoft regarding the matter. Breaking one software agreement to try another one is kind of strange. And the choices would be Aion or Windows. Obviously, I can't turn my back on my Operating System.
The result was a full refund and a banned (instead of canceled) account.
I am happy about the first, but the second action indicates that -unfortunately- Game Guard is here to stay indefinitely, with whatever baggage it carries.
Everything in life is based on one word: Respect.
Here's the gamguard wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NProtect_GameGuard
I highly recommend anyone concerned about gameguard to read about it. You cannot virtual machine. I imagine this is to stop botters frrom running several copies of the game (and the botting program) from one server. This is client side though. I would find it hard to believe that Aion is not using Corporate VMWare with no physical machine. This is to say, the Aion servers are in fact a handful of computers all running the SAME (one) operating system. That way if one computer crashes, the entire game wouldn't go down.
At least this is the way I'd do things. VMWare a host of operating systems across several machines operating as one computer and partition out the resource allocations so all servers are equal and do not cause each other to lag.
youtube.com/gcidogmeat
Gg is on Aion to prevent cheats.
If you dont like gg don't play Aion.
If you don't like milk don't drink it, starting to smell the coffee ?
ffs get a life stop harping on about it, its in the game its not going anywhere.
same here i was on pre-order same as you at the start and when i found out all the things i didnt enjoy in aion
i began posting here thinks its in may if i recall,on my side it didnt improve beta after beta then the last bad week-end everybody had ,and gg still actindg like a hacker etc. was like yep screw this
i ll probably stick to either one of the eeverquest (big yes)or maybe give another go to rune of magic
since in f2p its one of the top game with ddo f2p(last isnt my cup of tea yet but its an insanelly nice looking game
dx10 f2p i think its the only game that is dx10 f2p
Jimmy,
First of all, I am not playing Aion for that reason and I honestly have no regrets.
Second of all, I know what Game Guard is all too well. It's efficiency though has been a matter in question, but to be clear, I don't care what it's advertised to do. I care about the means it uses to do it. Which takes me to the following-
Third and most important of all, is the fact that a commercial program is violating the EULA of an Operating System. Under the pretense of "protection", the user is forced to violate an agreement and render his/her system vulnerable to attacks. That is obviously not ethical, unless some don't have any such reservations.
I could be more thorough and descriptive on what this translates to, but I am not in the mood to have this thread turn into a troll fest. I made a legitimate question in the beginning and I am sticking to it.
Everything in life is based on one word: Respect.
Actually the user is not at fault for breaking the eula. Gameguard is and Microsoft is the one that needs to pursue stopping gameguard from hacking into its system.
I'm sure there's exceptions for companies like GameGuard, and you'd probably have to agree to something upon using GameGuard saying you accept that you allow them to do this, or maybe since the company is in Korea, it's not illegal because the software is based in Korea.
Honestly, if any of this was illegal, GG would be dead already. A program as widespread as GameGuard being illegal? Nah, something would of been done by now if it violated any sort of EULA (by Microsoft).
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Currently playing: Black Desert Korea (Waiting for EU)
Always hating on instances in MMOs! Open worlds, open PvP, territory control and housing please. More persistence, more fun.
stop being able to play most f2p games because my college blocks gameguard from updating.
that being said isnt aion p2p? and if so why would they need gameguard to stop hackers i am sure there is a better way.
most p2p games dont use game guard.
I'm sure there's exceptions for companies like GameGuard, and you'd probably have to agree to something upon using GameGuard saying you accept that you allow them to do this, or maybe since the company is in Korea, it's not illegal because the software is based in Korea.
Honestly, if any of this was illegal, GG would be dead already. A program as widespread as GameGuard being illegal? Nah, something would of been done by now if it violated any sort of EULA (by Microsoft).
Actually Microsoft had initially secured the kernel of Vista64 against the kind of intrusions game guard is being accused of but Mcaffee and symantec complained about that to the EU which forced MS to open up the kernel to third party software. According to mcaffee and symantec closing the kernel would make it impossible for them to provide virus protection for Vista64 and eventhough other security compagnies clearly stated this wasn't the case MS decided to "unplug the hole" and allow for kernel hooks like the one GG is now using.
Now while I'm not sure how this is dealt with in Windows 7 I strongly suspect that should MS try again to close the kernel, and make programs like GG impossible, new complains would surface once again frustrating MS' attemps to make the windows OS more secure.
I just found yuor original post to be a tame version of "please just get rid of gameguard... pleeeease" post. Kinda sad to be put under the guise of "protecting" your microsoft EULA. No one actualyl cares about the MS eula, and I know you really dont' either. But I do commend your tame method, at least its not whining like most of the others do about it.
Most people like myself dont even notice gameguard running and don't have issue with it. And most of the issues people really have are more mental than anything.
Most games liek that either have no protection or they wrote their own. Like warcraft, they supposedly have built in hack protection, but more likely in the form of primitive file CRC checks. In any case, wow is hacked, and with the capability of using addons, very vulnerable to botmakers. Eventually they get caught... not the bot but the account that used it. so the problem really doesn't get resolved.
More gameguard fear tactics? Why should I care what GG does with MSPaint?
Its all fear with little to no proof of anything harmful actually taking place as a direct result of running GG. I am guessing that gameguard has permission to do what it does to your system..XP, Vista, whatever it is you have (just like the OP is guessing they are violating a MS EULA). GG is on quite a few games out there, and if you bypass Aion because of fear, well...I guess that's your right. This is all the basis of your post right? To uncover something illegal in an attempt to have GameGuard removed? What else, a class action lawsuit maybe? Shut down Aion?
If you want to say the viewpoint "if you dont like GameGaurd, just go play something else" is a trolling viewpoint, be assured this is nowhere near the first GG post. Also be aware you are posting in a public MMO forum, not exactly a software development or corporate law environment.
Now for those that can't run Aion because of GameGaurd errors, those people I feel for. But it seems like that is actively being worked on. If you're scared of GameGuard or feel it does something unholy to your system, just move on. If you want to start a legal case based on the alteration of a kernel MS produced, well, good luck.
yep drivec exactly most game dont use that
and the fact that microsoft is supposed to know is hilarious ,they re getting ton of email of this sort lol they probably dont know
gameguard is doing that,yes a division of microsoft elsewhere gave in that counrty the right to do it there not in america
hell even national security would check in this if it was made known by player
or tech.the thing is most people dont know what exactly gg do but we all know one thing when its around lot of player have verious problem with their computer
bad luck from computer owner .I THINK NOT!
I'm sure there's exceptions for companies like GameGuard, and you'd probably have to agree to something upon using GameGuard saying you accept that you allow them to do this, or maybe since the company is in Korea, it's not illegal because the software is based in Korea.
Honestly, if any of this was illegal, GG would be dead already. A program as widespread as GameGuard being illegal? Nah, something would of been done by now if it violated any sort of EULA (by Microsoft).
Actually Microsoft had initially secured the kernel of Vista64 against the kind of intrusions game guard is being accused of but Mcaffee and symantec complained about that to the EU which forced MS to open up the kernel to third party software. According to mcaffee and symantec closing the kernel would make it impossible for them to provide virus protection for Vista64 and eventhough other security compagnies clearly stated this wasn't the case MS decided to "unplug the hole" and allow for kernel hooks like the one GG is now using.
Now while I'm not sure how this is dealt with in Windows 7 I strongly suspect that should MS try again to close the kernel, and make programs like GG impossible, new complains would surface once again frustrating MS' attemps to make the windows OS more secure.
That is a VERY interesting approach! Thank you so much for sharing!
Everything in life is based on one word: Respect.
The basis of my post is to verify the information and data I have from the activity of Game Guard. And to be honest, my computer started acting strangely since install and I had no clue that the specific program required so much high privileges on my system's core. It is unfortunate to see that your paranoia is way out there. I pay lots of Euros for support in my applications as a professional and I would hate to lose my support contracts just because one program decides to do what it pleases. Period.
And since you selected an aggressive approach, how come and other successful MMOs use their own subtle and not so invasive code? Makes me think NCSoft's knowledge on security is still in the stone age.
As for the legal thing, I don't care. My concerns have been clearly stated.
Everything in life is based on one word: Respect.
Jimmy,
First of all, I am not playing Aion for that reason and I honestly have no regrets.
Second of all, I know what Game Guard is all too well. It's efficiency though has been a matter in question, but to be clear, I don't care what it's advertised to do. I care about the means it uses to do it. Which takes me to the following-
Third and most important of all, is the fact that a commercial program is violating the EULA of an Operating System. Under the pretense of "protection", the user is forced to violate an agreement and render his/her system vulnerable to attacks. That is obviously not ethical, unless some don't have any such reservations.
I could be more thorough and descriptive on what this translates to, but I am not in the mood to have this thread turn into a troll fest. I made a legitimate question in the beginning and I am sticking to it.
I just found yuor original post to be a tame version of "please just get rid of gameguard... pleeeease" post. Kinda sad to be put under the guise of "protecting" your microsoft EULA. No one actualyl cares about the MS eula, and I know you really dont' either. But I do commend your tame method, at least its not whining like most of the others do about it.
Most people like myself dont even notice gameguard running and don't have issue with it. And most of the issues people really have are more mental than anything.
Excuse me?!
Everything in life is based on one word: Respect.
If that's the case, I'd be a happy man! It's the one thing I need to verify.
Everything in life is based on one word: Respect.
I for one don't allow games to install rootkits on my machine. Period.
Jimmy,
First of all, I am not playing Aion for that reason and I honestly have no regrets.
Second of all, I know what Game Guard is all too well. It's efficiency though has been a matter in question, but to be clear, I don't care what it's advertised to do. I care about the means it uses to do it. Which takes me to the following-
Third and most important of all, is the fact that a commercial program is violating the EULA of an Operating System. Under the pretense of "protection", the user is forced to violate an agreement and render his/her system vulnerable to attacks. That is obviously not ethical, unless some don't have any such reservations.
I could be more thorough and descriptive on what this translates to, but I am not in the mood to have this thread turn into a troll fest. I made a legitimate question in the beginning and I am sticking to it.
I just found yuor original post to be a tame version of "please just get rid of gameguard... pleeeease" post. Kinda sad to be put under the guise of "protecting" your microsoft EULA. No one actualyl cares about the MS eula, and I know you really dont' either. But I do commend your tame method, at least its not whining like most of the others do about it.
Most people like myself dont even notice gameguard running and don't have issue with it. And most of the issues people really have are more mental than anything.
mm lol go tell that to all the player that have gameguard issu not solved still !
and see if thewy care about gameguard ,it makes me laugh if you had problem with gg you be the first to post here
but since you dont oh theres no problem with gameguard
same was said when ton of post were written here about lag rubberbanding some silly peep said oh the one that have problem its probably you or your system
funy during the following week ncsoft add a small patch after the 3 gig patch
miracle game works smooth
its the same frewaking thing with game guard with one exeption
micorosoft can sue you and you cant even turn around to sue gg or ncsoft because the first page you clic ok say you autirse them (probably lol)
no ty i wont go in that bandwagon ,microsoft is already complicated enough without adding something like gameguard to the pile
Gameguard causes no issues with my computer so to be frank, I don't care about your problems just the same as you don't care about mine or anyone else's unless it is convenient for you.
shoziku is correct, Gamguard is in the game to stay. I am also fairly certain that he is also correct about the OP using the EULA as a guise to make his point. But you better look out, the Microsoft FBI will come and get'cha for breaking their precious legal agreement!
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You wouldn't understand
A picture is worth a thousand words:
Futilez[Do You Have What It Takes ?]
I really don't get the big deal about having security programs probe your PC. In regards to GG, then only thing that annoyes me is the fact that it makes logging into Aion more of a pain, especially when something breaks and you get an error with a bunch of question marks.
But about the code injection.. Why do you care? Do you not trust your game company? Do you have anything to hide? Are you a botter/hacker?
You might not like the idea that GG goes as far as it goes into your system, but this only occurs while your playing the game.
But yeah, why are you worried so much? Are you afraid that it's going to act like a trojan and total !@£ your system and steal your credit card numbers? :P