I blame the beta tester fanbois. When I tried beta testing this heap of junk many months ago you could not post anything negative on the beta forum wihout getting flamed. Pointing out bugs and flaws got you flamed, I kid you not. According to them everything was great, it was an awesome game.
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I blame the beta tester fanbois. When I tried beta testing this heap of junk many months ago you could not post anything negative on the beta forum wihout getting flamed. Pointing out bugs and flaws got you flamed, I kid you not. According to them everything was great, it was an awesome game.
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards.
If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
I blame the beta tester fanbois. When I tried beta testing this heap of junk many months ago you could not post anything negative on the beta forum wihout getting flamed. Pointing out bugs and flaws got you flamed, I kid you not. According to them everything was great, it was an awesome game.
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards.
If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not.
Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.).
I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may.
I blame the beta tester fanbois. When I tried beta testing this heap of junk many months ago you could not post anything negative on the beta forum wihout getting flamed. Pointing out bugs and flaws got you flamed, I kid you not. According to them everything was great, it was an awesome game.
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards.
If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not.
Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.).
I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may.
HAHAHAHA! Oh, that's a good one. You should go check out the forums over on Icarus' message board before you post stuff like this. Also, it would be the marketing company that posts about the game, not the actual developer. It'd be too expensive to have a guy sitting around doing nothing but answering forum posts for a developer.
Next is your claim about flaming. People flame because this is the internet and they can hide behind the anonymity of their pseudonyms, without fear of retribution. Also is the lack of most type of emotive nuance that you have in RL that would change the meaning of what is said, whereas here, only the reader's emotion is applied to what is written. So a person already offended is going to read something that might be innocuous but could take it as even more offensive and reply as such. Trolls find enjoyment out of causing turmoil. Others like the feeling of power or intelligence that is brought by posting their opinions online. Whatever the reason, people become passionate about things they like and will go overboard in their defense of it.
But, regardless of the 'flames' that happen, if you don't let your voice be heard, then you won't make a difference. The most basic thing is not to respond to the trolls. Not everyone on the forum is an idiot and if you are clear and concise in your points of why you like or dislike something, it will get read by people who can understand it, even if it's replied to by the trolls. By simply posting you are getting your idea out there, regardless of who responds to it.
I blame the beta tester fanbois. When I tried beta testing this heap of junk many months ago you could not post anything negative on the beta forum wihout getting flamed. Pointing out bugs and flaws got you flamed, I kid you not. According to them everything was great, it was an awesome game.
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards.
If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not.
Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.).
I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may.
HAHAHAHA! Oh, that's a good one. You should go check out the forums over on Icarus' message board before you post stuff like this. Also, it would be the marketing company that posts about the game, not the actual developer. It'd be too expensive to have a guy sitting around doing nothing but answering forum posts for a developer.
Next is your claim about flaming. People flame because this is the internet and they can hide behind the anonymity of their pseudonyms, without fear of retribution. Also is the lack of most type of emotive nuance that you have in RL that would change the meaning of what is said, whereas here, only the reader's emotion is applied to what is written. So a person already offended is going to read something that might be innocuous but could take it as even more offensive and reply as such. Trolls find enjoyment out of causing turmoil. Others like the feeling of power or intelligence that is brought by posting their opinions online. Whatever the reason, people become passionate about things they like and will go overboard in their defense of it.
But, regardless of the 'flames' that happen, if you don't let your voice be heard, then you won't make a difference. The most basic thing is not to respond to the trolls. Not everyone on the forum is an idiot and if you are clear and concise in your points of why you like or dislike something, it will get read by people who can understand it, even if it's replied to by the trolls. By simply posting you are getting your idea out there, regardless of who responds to it.
Well, I'm glad to have supplied some entertainment at least!
I'm not trying to contrive a conspiracy theory and what you said is also very true. I'm just stating my own experience on some forums, not all though. I must confess I can be a bit of a trouble causing troll myself, but I can assure you I do have the best intentions at heart and although I might come across as being a bit arrogant I still think my points are valid. Funny enough I get a better response on European sites as they seemed to be more civilized in their responses. Curltural differences across the pond? I don't know.
I will keep on though as you suggest, but I must admit I wonder if any of us as true players will ever make a difference? I'm afraid the true arraogance lies firmly in this industry as a whole.
Well if you do bug reports in game you don't have to worry about getting flamed.
Most people beta test just to get an advanced taste of a game before it launches and don't truly test things. Sad but true.
As for games launching early, usually that means the pre launch money has or is about to run out and the investors are demanding a return on said investment.
about unfinished part i only want to add FE was planed to be a lvl 120 game but only released 3 sectors and limited to lvl 45 but there are lvl 80 NPC and also lvl 150 NPC how is supposed to kill this NPC i have no idea ......
They plan on level 150 cosy not 120.
ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
about unfinished part i only want to add FE was planed to be a lvl 120 game but only released 3 sectors and limited to lvl 45 but there are lvl 80 NPC and also lvl 150 NPC how is supposed to kill this NPC i have no idea ......
They plan on level 150 cosy not 120.
ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
Because the eventual plan is to release expansions that will gradually raise your level up to 150 as well as more sectors. I believe there's going to be 10 total.
about unfinished part i only want to add FE was planed to be a lvl 120 game but only released 3 sectors and limited to lvl 45 but there are lvl 80 NPC and also lvl 150 NPC how is supposed to kill this NPC i have no idea ......
They plan on level 150 cosy not 120.
ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
uh..... Group.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
about unfinished part i only want to add FE was planed to be a lvl 120 game but only released 3 sectors and limited to lvl 45 but there are lvl 80 NPC and also lvl 150 NPC how is supposed to kill this NPC i have no idea ......
They plan on level 150 cosy not 120.
ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
uh..... Group.
and how u tank 250-300 dmg per shot from a single NPC ?
I suggest until more MMORPG dev teams start running like a professional software development group the problems will continue.
I don't understand where you get that MMORPG development teams are not being run like software development. Please enlighten me. Note that each generation of Windows generally ships with a few hundred thousand known bugs.
Being someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 10 years and being that I've been involved in multi-million dollar projects that involve multiple departments from multiple global offices, I can understand that a project does not always go flawlessly. Though, they have job titles for people who are experts at keeping a project rolling as smoothly as possible and in a timely manner.
If projects went as terrible as MMO launches go... I can assure you that the person managing the project, would no longer have a job. Period.
I used to work for Fed-Ex corporate and we regularly shared information with UPS and the USPS. We even sold some of our software to the USPS. During some of the huge IT projects we would hire a consulting team. These guys worked on massive projects for companies all over the globe. They were genuises and were paid beyond imagination for their knowledge and expertise when it comes to IT projects. They would ensure that things went smoothly, drawing from experience in their careers to help us do what we need, and not do what will cause problems.
The point is, if you do something over and over and over again and EVERY time things go poorly... why keep doing it that way? To me this is insanity. Understand the process, work with other companies who have launched, find the right people to get things done the right way and whip the shareholders into place so that they understand...shut up, you'll make more money this way.
No, I do understand that the company behind Fallen Earth is small though small is a thing of perception. I don't know if this entitles them to make as many mistakes as they have.
With that said there are in fact some variables that are completely out of your control. Planning for them, and developing contingency are all that you can do.
An old boss of mine when I had gotten started in the world of IT once told me this:
Three most important things in the Information Technology field and they are:
Being someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 10 years and being that I've been involved in multi-million dollar projects that involve multiple departments from multiple global offices, I can understand that a project does not always go flawlessly. Though, they have job titles for people who are experts at keeping a project rolling as smoothly as possible and in a timely manner. If projects went as terrible as MMO launches go... I can assure you that the person managing the project, would no longer have a job. Period. I used to work for Fed-Ex corporate and we regularly shared information with UPS and the USPS. We even sold some of our software to the USPS. During some of the huge IT projects we would hire a consulting team. These guys worked on massive projects for companies all over the globe. They were genuises and were paid beyond imagination for their knowledge and expertise when it comes to IT projects. They would ensure that things went smoothly, drawing from experience in their careers to help us do what we need, and not do what will cause problems. The point is, if you do something over and over and over again and EVERY time things go poorly... why keep doing it that way? To me this is insanity. Understand the process, work with other companies who have launched, find the right people to get things done the right way and whip the shareholders into place so that they understand...shut up, you'll make more money this way. No, I do understand that the company behind Fallen Earth is small though small is a thing of perception. I don't know if this entitles them to make as many mistakes as they have. With that said there are in fact some variables that are completely out of your control. Planning for them, and developing contingency are all that you can do. An old boss of mine when I had gotten started in the world of IT once told me this: Three most important things in the Information Technology field and they are: 1. Contingency 2. Contingency 3. Contingency
Comparing Business to Business transactions to Business to consumer transactions is hardly valid. Being in the field for that long, one would expect you to know that. Why do you think IBM is gonna buy the $30000 router from Cisco over the $100 router from Best Buy?
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update.
With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable.
So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please...
Being someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 10 years and being that I've been involved in multi-million dollar projects that involve multiple departments from multiple global offices, I can understand that a project does not always go flawlessly. Though, they have job titles for people who are experts at keeping a project rolling as smoothly as possible and in a timely manner. If projects went as terrible as MMO launches go... I can assure you that the person managing the project, would no longer have a job. Period. I used to work for Fed-Ex corporate and we regularly shared information with UPS and the USPS. We even sold some of our software to the USPS. During some of the huge IT projects we would hire a consulting team. These guys worked on massive projects for companies all over the globe. They were genuises and were paid beyond imagination for their knowledge and expertise when it comes to IT projects. They would ensure that things went smoothly, drawing from experience in their careers to help us do what we need, and not do what will cause problems. The point is, if you do something over and over and over again and EVERY time things go poorly... why keep doing it that way? To me this is insanity. Understand the process, work with other companies who have launched, find the right people to get things done the right way and whip the shareholders into place so that they understand...shut up, you'll make more money this way. No, I do understand that the company behind Fallen Earth is small though small is a thing of perception. I don't know if this entitles them to make as many mistakes as they have. With that said there are in fact some variables that are completely out of your control. Planning for them, and developing contingency are all that you can do. An old boss of mine when I had gotten started in the world of IT once told me this: Three most important things in the Information Technology field and they are: 1. Contingency 2. Contingency 3. Contingency
At last someone who agrees with me on a point of principle. Mmorpg companies seem to think the world owes them something and the customers are just treated like cattle for farming subscription and download fees. Their customer service really sucks and if a league table were formed about the level of Customer satisfaction in each industry I'm afraid mmorpgs would be a 100 steps below the last.
Somehow the market has to burst their insulated bubble and think deeply about the market they are in and become Customer focused. Every industry has had to do this, I know I'm in the construction industry and we've had to learn the hard way.
Being someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 10 years and being that I've been involved in multi-million dollar projects that involve multiple departments from multiple global offices, I can understand that a project does not always go flawlessly. Though, they have job titles for people who are experts at keeping a project rolling as smoothly as possible and in a timely manner. If projects went as terrible as MMO launches go... I can assure you that the person managing the project, would no longer have a job. Period. I used to work for Fed-Ex corporate and we regularly shared information with UPS and the USPS. We even sold some of our software to the USPS. During some of the huge IT projects we would hire a consulting team. These guys worked on massive projects for companies all over the globe. They were genuises and were paid beyond imagination for their knowledge and expertise when it comes to IT projects. They would ensure that things went smoothly, drawing from experience in their careers to help us do what we need, and not do what will cause problems. The point is, if you do something over and over and over again and EVERY time things go poorly... why keep doing it that way? To me this is insanity. Understand the process, work with other companies who have launched, find the right people to get things done the right way and whip the shareholders into place so that they understand...shut up, you'll make more money this way. No, I do understand that the company behind Fallen Earth is small though small is a thing of perception. I don't know if this entitles them to make as many mistakes as they have. With that said there are in fact some variables that are completely out of your control. Planning for them, and developing contingency are all that you can do. An old boss of mine when I had gotten started in the world of IT once told me this: Three most important things in the Information Technology field and they are: 1. Contingency 2. Contingency 3. Contingency
Comparing Business to Business transactions to Business to consumer transactions is hardly valid. Being in the field for that long, one would expect you to know that. Why do you think IBM is gonna buy the $30000 router from Cisco over the $100 router from Best Buy?
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update.
With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable.
So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please...
Thanks for the reply. Even sarcastic and trollish replies are appreciated. Business to Business transactions vs. Business to Consumer transactions have nothing to do with anything I said. I'm talking about PRODUCING the product... the steps.. procedures involved. I'm surprised someone whom has been reading English for such a long time wouldn't understand this.
You missing the point does not invalidate mine. If anything it "invalidates" your skills of observation. At the core of my original post (the one that started this whole discussion) as well as my latest post is this simple question:
Why does the process have to be so flawed?
I gave a great example/view of how a project is completed from within a company in order to show exactly how we keep a project rolling out as smoothly as possible. This includes:
1. Sharing information/project data/procedures/outlines with companies who have already launched MMO's to understand the flaws, problems, and unknowns.
2. Hire a project management team/group with experience in this exact type of project.
3. Have contingency in place.
Does that make sense? Telling me that companies can still make a dollar by releasing a buggy piece of software does not make my point valid. It only proves that THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT !
How many customers read the complains about bugs, lag, and not logging in? How many of those are turned away? Money out the window...
How many play for a month and un-sub because they feel cheated, frustrated, or are unhappy with the launch?
I don't have the numbers and I haven't done the research. I assume you don't have that information either. My guess is that by changing the process and investing more time, the pay-off would be worth it. Hell, you might even launch a Sci-Fi game a few weeks after the launch of another huge sci-fi'ish MMO like Aion so you can catch the rush of people who don't like Aion and are unsubbing rather than launching back to back and fighting a much larger company like that.
No launch will ever come without problems, lag, issues. Ever. No game on the planet. There are just too many variables involved to ensure 100 percent perfection. If you can't handle those issues, i would suggest to never, ever play an mmo within the first month of launch.
Not true, Guildwars did just that. And... Ok, no one else have pulled it off yet but it is possible, just extremly hard. You need someone like Arenanets Jeff Strain for a perfect launch (Diablo, Warcraft 3, have quited now BTW).
Still, the OP have a point. MMO companies releasing the game a year too early nowadays. It isn't just some issues like lag, odd errors and and login problems.
Take war. They cut out for of the 6 starting citys and several classes just a month before launch. And they have never patch in those citys as promised. They also cut all cool small things like the neat idea that the character models should change whne you level. And they totaly cut out the endgame too. One more year in development and the game would have been a very different game.
Or AoC. It had really bad performance at launch and had way to little content. If they would have waited another year they would have a lot more players today.
They all released way too early and and lost some or many players on it, Vanguard lost most of any game because of it. I do costs a lot of money to keep a game in development longer than you have to but games like Vanguard would have won that cash many times over.
DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) had a nearly perfect launch, previously noted the best in the business. You can remove that from your list, but if you meant perfect as in zero problems --nothing made with this much code will ever be perfect for years until after all the bug reports/ debugging and patches take place. It is financially impossible to do that without a huge bankroll, and as risky as MMO's are, no-one would finance years of beta-testing before a product is released.
To expect any game to be released 'perfect' is unrealistic. Also, with the stresses placed on a single server by /when an unexpected amount of players hit all at once, new, unexpected problems will occur (like one previous poster explained about World of Warcraft). That the majority of the issues were corrected within 24 hours is not only impressive, but show a comforting level of professionalism for those prospective subscribers apprehesive about a small "indie" company.
Releasing games too soon is sometimes a necessary evil. But I think if it has to be done, atleast continue to poor resources into finishing what was not finished, so the game gets up to speed as quickly as possible.
This is exactly how I feel after playing the game for 2 hours. I simply cannot play it. My computer is medium to high end and should run this out dated software fine, yet it tends to run worse than age of conan. The gameplay is bland. Shoot mob 20 mobs, turn in quest. Shoot 10 more turn in quest. Oh what's this? You have to do it now in 15 minutes. No challenge here. Only made it to level 4 but couldn't really stand the game past that. I have played everything from NexusTK (first mmo ever) to Ultima (first commercial mmo ever) to Everquest to Planetside (first commercial FPS mmo) to WoW to Age of conan to Warhammer to everything else. This game simply does not cut it. Maybe it's not for me, but if it's not for me it's not for a lot of gamers too and that's sad. Fallen earth had a ton of good going for it, but the lack of polish, bugs and repetitive gameplay will not keep me coming back.
/end rant I'm not a troll morons
Agree
This game is one of the worst I bought with Roma Victor.
AOC, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, War, and even SWG are better games. It's not only a problem of graphism, not only a problem of bugs (this game has terrible issues; take a look at official forums ), it's a problem of gameplay. It's NOT a sandbox game, it's NOT a FPS, not a Tabula Rasa like, it's a very very very mediocre game, but not a cheap one.
Payed 49euros for this....
Stay away.
NB i'm not a troller, and played many many many mmorpgs, and was a beta tester for some mmorpgs. I can't understand why i payed for this... ah yeah thx to fanboys who told me it was the new sandbox game. it is NOT. It's another clone, but a bad one : boring and repetitive quests, ridiculous graphisms (omg the world ), full of bugs.
Small company that has run out of time most of the time. Icarus is small and not a Blizz or NCSoft. Sometimes they do not have the luxury of unlimited resources and time. MMOs are a beast and if it not for the small companies trying then we would end up with the same crap over and over. Small guys are what drives innovation. Not saying FE is innovative but to a great extent EVE is and CCP had about 5000 subs after the first couple months. Now look at it so although it sucks to go through it is the nature of the beast as well. People should be slightly more forgiving of the small guys as long as they work hard and communicate as to what is going on.
Agree.
And while I hear some people are having technical problems I have seen few issues other than issues of just general clunkiness in some of the mechanics/AI that I read are part of the ongoing polish the game is getting. All in all, I say the game is done though it does need refinement. The core gameplay is done, core crafting, and core characters stuff is done and good. It is the various superfluous elements that need polish and refinement and, frankly, this is a legitimate thing to deal with in live. Personally, I think FE just got a lot more attention than they figured and as much as anything that is causing some of the problems, or exposing them. I think FE has a good chance to do the EVE thing starting small and incrementally getting bigger and better provided the DEVs do good development by continually making improvements and additions over time. First on my list would be smoothing things out in terms of the transition of elements between typical third person MMO toolbar stuff and the first person shooter stuff - it works as it is now it is just a little rough in spots. Other than that, I think this game is in a good place to get better and better and I am interested to see evolve it over time.
Being someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 10 years and being that I've been involved in multi-million dollar projects that involve multiple departments from multiple global offices, I can understand that a project does not always go flawlessly. Though, they have job titles for people who are experts at keeping a project rolling as smoothly as possible and in a timely manner. If projects went as terrible as MMO launches go... I can assure you that the person managing the project, would no longer have a job. Period. I used to work for Fed-Ex corporate and we regularly shared information with UPS and the USPS. We even sold some of our software to the USPS. During some of the huge IT projects we would hire a consulting team. These guys worked on massive projects for companies all over the globe. They were genuises and were paid beyond imagination for their knowledge and expertise when it comes to IT projects. They would ensure that things went smoothly, drawing from experience in their careers to help us do what we need, and not do what will cause problems. The point is, if you do something over and over and over again and EVERY time things go poorly... why keep doing it that way? To me this is insanity. Understand the process, work with other companies who have launched, find the right people to get things done the right way and whip the shareholders into place so that they understand...shut up, you'll make more money this way. No, I do understand that the company behind Fallen Earth is small though small is a thing of perception. I don't know if this entitles them to make as many mistakes as they have. With that said there are in fact some variables that are completely out of your control. Planning for them, and developing contingency are all that you can do. An old boss of mine when I had gotten started in the world of IT once told me this: Three most important things in the Information Technology field and they are: 1. Contingency 2. Contingency 3. Contingency
Comparing Business to Business transactions to Business to consumer transactions is hardly valid. Being in the field for that long, one would expect you to know that. Why do you think IBM is gonna buy the $30000 router from Cisco over the $100 router from Best Buy?
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update.
With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable.
So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please...
Thanks for the reply. Even sarcastic and trollish replies are appreciated. Business to Business transactions vs. Business to Consumer transactions have nothing to do with anything I said. I'm talking about PRODUCING the product... the steps.. procedures involved. I'm surprised someone whom has been reading English for such a long time wouldn't understand this.
You missing the point does not invalidate mine. If anything it "invalidates" your skills of observation. At the core of my original post (the one that started this whole discussion) as well as my latest post is this simple question:
Why does the process have to be so flawed?
I gave a great example/view of how a project is completed from within a company in order to show exactly how we keep a project rolling out as smoothly as possible. This includes:
1. Sharing information/project data/procedures/outlines with companies who have already launched MMO's to understand the flaws, problems, and unknowns.
2. Hire a project management team/group with experience in this exact type of project.
3. Have contingency in place.
Does that make sense? Telling me that companies can still make a dollar by releasing a buggy piece of software does not make my point valid. It only proves that THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT !
How many customers read the complains about bugs, lag, and not logging in? How many of those are turned away? Money out the window...
How many play for a month and un-sub because they feel cheated, frustrated, or are unhappy with the launch?
I don't have the numbers and I haven't done the research. I assume you don't have that information either. My guess is that by changing the process and investing more time, the pay-off would be worth it. Hell, you might even launch a Sci-Fi game a few weeks after the launch of another huge sci-fi'ish MMO like Aion so you can catch the rush of people who don't like Aion and are unsubbing rather than launching back to back and fighting a much larger company like that.
Your post makes no sense in the way that you are trying to present it. For one, the procedures are the same, as you say, /BUT/ the money to implement those procedures are not, resulting in disparate results between the two, which is my point. You are arguing that products that are sold to businesses should have the same quality as products sold to consumers, which we know isn't true in any realm of business. It cannot be because a business' requirements are different than a consumer's. Now, the argument about how this has to change then goes into the realm of how much would you pay for the privilege? Would you pay the $10000 a month that Bank of America pays to have a service contract with IBM over it's online banking platform that IBM is also developing? Or perhaps you'd pay the $15000 a month Etna pays Extream software for it's document management software tool, including support.
I say your argument is invalid because you get one or the other, not both. If you want better quality, then you will simply have to pay more. And in this environment where people pay $15/month with a little annoyance, how are you going to sell $100/month for none?
As to your other arguments, point 1 just shows you're an idiot. Businesses are not going to share /their/ trade secrets so that the consumer can have a better product. They won't work that way.
Point two will raise costs, which will then be transferred to the consumer. Also is the question of whether it is really needed. So far, experience shows us that 'no', it is not needed. You can rant and rave about how it might need to change, but in the foreseeable future, it's not.
And what contingency would you suggest? Again, it comes down to money. How much extra are you going to pay to have an uninterrupted gaming session? Businesses do what they do because consumers are fickle. You could have the best product in the world, but a consumer will still get bored with it, especially when there is no actual tangible product.
As far as lost sales and such, I doubt FE is suffering for subscribers or players right now and is probably pretty comfortable with the numbers. You're not selling anything here, and honestly, I don't think many people are buying.
This is exactly how I feel after playing the game for 2 hours. I simply cannot play it. My computer is medium to high end and should run this out dated software fine, yet it tends to run worse than age of conan. The gameplay is bland. Shoot mob 20 mobs, turn in quest. Shoot 10 more turn in quest. Oh what's this? You have to do it now in 15 minutes. No challenge here. Only made it to level 4 but couldn't really stand the game past that. I have played everything from NexusTK (first mmo ever) to Ultima (first commercial mmo ever) to Everquest to Planetside (first commercial FPS mmo) to WoW to Age of conan to Warhammer to everything else. This game simply does not cut it. Maybe it's not for me, but if it's not for me it's not for a lot of gamers too and that's sad. Fallen earth had a ton of good going for it, but the lack of polish, bugs and repetitive gameplay will not keep me coming back.
/end rant I'm not a troll morons
Agree
This game is one of the worst I bought with Roma Victor.
AOC, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, War, and even SWG are better games. It's not only a problem of graphism, not only a problem of bugs (this game has terrible issues; take a look at official forums ), it's a problem of gameplay. It's NOT a sandbox game, it's NOT a FPS, not a Tabula Rasa like, it's a very very very mediocre game, but not a cheap one.
Payed 49euros for this....
Stay away.
NB i'm not a troller, and played many many many mmorpgs, and was a beta tester for some mmorpgs. I can't understand why i payed for this... ah yeah thx to fanboys who told me it was the new sandbox game. it is NOT. It's another clone, but a bad one : boring and repetitive quests, ridiculous graphisms (omg the world ), full of bugs.
its why im waiting for people to stop posting bad things about all the new games that are coming out and wait for them to post good things about the content and etc.
So by that time theyll be fully patched and ready to go.
Your post makes no sense in the way that you are trying to present it. For one, the procedures are the same, as you say, /BUT/ the money to implement those procedures are not, resulting in disparate results between the two, which is my point. You are arguing that products that are sold to businesses should have the same quality as products sold to consumers, which we know isn't true in any realm of business. It cannot be because a business' requirements are different than a consumer's. Now, the argument about how this has to change then goes into the realm of how much would you pay for the privilege? Would you pay the $10000 a month that Bank of America pays to have a service contract with IBM over it's online banking platform that IBM is also developing? Or perhaps you'd pay the $15000 a month Etna pays Extream software for it's document management software tool, including support. I say your argument is invalid because you get one or the other, not both. If you want better quality, then you will simply have to pay more. And in this environment where people pay $15/month with a little annoyance, how are you going to sell $100/month for none? As to your other arguments, point 1 just shows you're an idiot. Businesses are not going to share /their/ trade secrets so that the consumer can have a better product. They won't work that way. Point two will raise costs, which will then be transferred to the consumer. Also is the question of whether it is really needed. So far, experience shows us that 'no', it is not needed. You can rant and rave about how it might need to change, but in the foreseeable future, it's not. And what contingency would you suggest? Again, it comes down to money. How much extra are you going to pay to have an uninterrupted gaming session? Businesses do what they do because consumers are fickle. You could have the best product in the world, but a consumer will still get bored with it, especially when there is no actual tangible product. As far as lost sales and such, I doubt FE is suffering for subscribers or players right now and is probably pretty comfortable with the numbers. You're not selling anything here, and honestly, I don't think many people are buying.
What you are basically saying is its OK for Company A to produce a product of sub-par quality because they aren't the mega-corporation that produces quality stuff? That IS the whole point of the person who you are arguing with. If you do not have the funds to produce desired product, you either change HOW you make it or change WHAT you make it.
If you are making a car and you run out money making it, you can't just finish it up and still call it a car. "Oh you know, we didn't have enough money like Honda, so Its OK for us to make a care without wheels." - ridiculous. This thing should NOT have happened in the first place. A smart businessmen will not start something that is out of their league. What these so-called indie developers do is they get partial investments, and they HOPE they get more investments on the way. They HOPE they get enough resources to have a barely-playable game. When they CAN'T, they let the marketing department spin the hype and let CSR/PR department damage control.
This is BAD business. If businesses would go the way Blizzard went - producing polished games, then we would have several MMOs on the market right now all being playable, fun and without any groundbreaking bugs. most games that come out unfinished do not last long. People who defend these kind of games or even if they simply keep silent actually promote this type of business practice. If this keeps happening, next thing we know all new games are bugged, unplayable, missing major piece of content, get finished on the go after release... I don't want this to happen.
Long story short, if you can't predict how much a project cost, then you shouldn't even start working on it. Work on something more down to earth, more realistic. I am not happy at the state of FE. No1 warned me about bugged resources, about lag, about the crashes.
Comments
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards.
If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards.
If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not.
Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.).
I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may.
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards.
If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not.
Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.).
I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may.
HAHAHAHA! Oh, that's a good one. You should go check out the forums over on Icarus' message board before you post stuff like this. Also, it would be the marketing company that posts about the game, not the actual developer. It'd be too expensive to have a guy sitting around doing nothing but answering forum posts for a developer.
Next is your claim about flaming. People flame because this is the internet and they can hide behind the anonymity of their pseudonyms, without fear of retribution. Also is the lack of most type of emotive nuance that you have in RL that would change the meaning of what is said, whereas here, only the reader's emotion is applied to what is written. So a person already offended is going to read something that might be innocuous but could take it as even more offensive and reply as such. Trolls find enjoyment out of causing turmoil. Others like the feeling of power or intelligence that is brought by posting their opinions online. Whatever the reason, people become passionate about things they like and will go overboard in their defense of it.
But, regardless of the 'flames' that happen, if you don't let your voice be heard, then you won't make a difference. The most basic thing is not to respond to the trolls. Not everyone on the forum is an idiot and if you are clear and concise in your points of why you like or dislike something, it will get read by people who can understand it, even if it's replied to by the trolls. By simply posting you are getting your idea out there, regardless of who responds to it.
I didn't see much of that, one guy got flamed quite a bit through cb. Because he wanted everything changed everytime he tried something new, then he would degrade anyone who disagreed, because he knew better than everyone. Other than that FE had one of the better testing environments I've taken part in and I've tested many. These guys communicated freely and openly, on top of that they have Tiggs (old SWG community manager) who does her job very well.
Agreed, I never saw any of these flames your talking about on the beta boards.
If you got flamed I'll point out maybe not posting criticisms that include things like "this heap of junk" which is pretty vague and sounds like an opinion and not a legitimate bug report.
You will get flamed totally if your commentry is seen as dangerous by the company concerned, especially if you have a good point to make. You will also get flamed even on websites such this because even Icarus pay staff to monitor both their own website and these external ones posing as independent players. I can understand launches are a sensitive & highly pressurized period for a new game, but the flaming can be quite aggressive and emotive. An all round great customer experience? I think not.
Perhaps as one person pointed out maybe the staff have to operate in quite an aggressive blame culture. There's something there that makes them quite vicious. Flaming on their website can be co-ordinated by certain individulas I've noticed and it's done by mockery and character assination. You may even get someone reminding of terms and conditions that you signed up to when you enrolled on the game. Terms and conditions by the way you were not made aware of when you first purchased the game and not necessarily legal in some countries (If you sell a game or service subscription in other countries even though your based in another you are liable to local sales/revenue tax, of which developers like Lindenlab found out to their great cost. Local consumer protection laws can also apply.).
I really wish these companies would chill out and show some patience with players. It will be to their benefit in the long term. If you have complaints about the game it's best you stick to the external websites where you may get more support from others. Be suspicious, but not paranoid of players that seem to take unreasonable stance, defending the company come what may.
HAHAHAHA! Oh, that's a good one. You should go check out the forums over on Icarus' message board before you post stuff like this. Also, it would be the marketing company that posts about the game, not the actual developer. It'd be too expensive to have a guy sitting around doing nothing but answering forum posts for a developer.
Next is your claim about flaming. People flame because this is the internet and they can hide behind the anonymity of their pseudonyms, without fear of retribution. Also is the lack of most type of emotive nuance that you have in RL that would change the meaning of what is said, whereas here, only the reader's emotion is applied to what is written. So a person already offended is going to read something that might be innocuous but could take it as even more offensive and reply as such. Trolls find enjoyment out of causing turmoil. Others like the feeling of power or intelligence that is brought by posting their opinions online. Whatever the reason, people become passionate about things they like and will go overboard in their defense of it.
But, regardless of the 'flames' that happen, if you don't let your voice be heard, then you won't make a difference. The most basic thing is not to respond to the trolls. Not everyone on the forum is an idiot and if you are clear and concise in your points of why you like or dislike something, it will get read by people who can understand it, even if it's replied to by the trolls. By simply posting you are getting your idea out there, regardless of who responds to it.
Well, I'm glad to have supplied some entertainment at least!
I'm not trying to contrive a conspiracy theory and what you said is also very true. I'm just stating my own experience on some forums, not all though. I must confess I can be a bit of a trouble causing troll myself, but I can assure you I do have the best intentions at heart and although I might come across as being a bit arrogant I still think my points are valid. Funny enough I get a better response on European sites as they seemed to be more civilized in their responses. Curltural differences across the pond? I don't know.
I will keep on though as you suggest, but I must admit I wonder if any of us as true players will ever make a difference? I'm afraid the true arraogance lies firmly in this industry as a whole.
Well if you do bug reports in game you don't have to worry about getting flamed.
Most people beta test just to get an advanced taste of a game before it launches and don't truly test things. Sad but true.
As for games launching early, usually that means the pre launch money has or is about to run out and the investors are demanding a return on said investment.
They plan on level 150 cosy not 120.
ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
BestSigEver :P
They plan on level 150 cosy not 120.
ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
Because the eventual plan is to release expansions that will gradually raise your level up to 150 as well as more sectors. I believe there's going to be 10 total.
They plan on level 150 cosy not 120.
ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
uh..... Group.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
They plan on level 150 cosy not 120.
ok but the problem is still the same how u skill this npc if u only can be lvl45 atm ????
uh..... Group.
and how u tank 250-300 dmg per shot from a single NPC ?
BestSigEver :P
I don't understand where you get that MMORPG development teams are not being run like software development. Please enlighten me. Note that each generation of Windows generally ships with a few hundred thousand known bugs.
Being someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 10 years and being that I've been involved in multi-million dollar projects that involve multiple departments from multiple global offices, I can understand that a project does not always go flawlessly. Though, they have job titles for people who are experts at keeping a project rolling as smoothly as possible and in a timely manner.
If projects went as terrible as MMO launches go... I can assure you that the person managing the project, would no longer have a job. Period.
I used to work for Fed-Ex corporate and we regularly shared information with UPS and the USPS. We even sold some of our software to the USPS. During some of the huge IT projects we would hire a consulting team. These guys worked on massive projects for companies all over the globe. They were genuises and were paid beyond imagination for their knowledge and expertise when it comes to IT projects. They would ensure that things went smoothly, drawing from experience in their careers to help us do what we need, and not do what will cause problems.
The point is, if you do something over and over and over again and EVERY time things go poorly... why keep doing it that way? To me this is insanity. Understand the process, work with other companies who have launched, find the right people to get things done the right way and whip the shareholders into place so that they understand...shut up, you'll make more money this way.
No, I do understand that the company behind Fallen Earth is small though small is a thing of perception. I don't know if this entitles them to make as many mistakes as they have.
With that said there are in fact some variables that are completely out of your control. Planning for them, and developing contingency are all that you can do.
An old boss of mine when I had gotten started in the world of IT once told me this:
Three most important things in the Information Technology field and they are:
1. Contingency
2. Contingency
3. Contingency
Comparing Business to Business transactions to Business to consumer transactions is hardly valid. Being in the field for that long, one would expect you to know that. Why do you think IBM is gonna buy the $30000 router from Cisco over the $100 router from Best Buy?
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update.
With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable.
So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please...
At last someone who agrees with me on a point of principle. Mmorpg companies seem to think the world owes them something and the customers are just treated like cattle for farming subscription and download fees. Their customer service really sucks and if a league table were formed about the level of Customer satisfaction in each industry I'm afraid mmorpgs would be a 100 steps below the last.
Somehow the market has to burst their insulated bubble and think deeply about the market they are in and become Customer focused. Every industry has had to do this, I know I'm in the construction industry and we've had to learn the hard way.
Comparing Business to Business transactions to Business to consumer transactions is hardly valid. Being in the field for that long, one would expect you to know that. Why do you think IBM is gonna buy the $30000 router from Cisco over the $100 router from Best Buy?
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update.
With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable.
So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please...
Thanks for the reply. Even sarcastic and trollish replies are appreciated. Business to Business transactions vs. Business to Consumer transactions have nothing to do with anything I said. I'm talking about PRODUCING the product... the steps.. procedures involved. I'm surprised someone whom has been reading English for such a long time wouldn't understand this.
You missing the point does not invalidate mine. If anything it "invalidates" your skills of observation. At the core of my original post (the one that started this whole discussion) as well as my latest post is this simple question:
Why does the process have to be so flawed?
I gave a great example/view of how a project is completed from within a company in order to show exactly how we keep a project rolling out as smoothly as possible. This includes:
1. Sharing information/project data/procedures/outlines with companies who have already launched MMO's to understand the flaws, problems, and unknowns.
2. Hire a project management team/group with experience in this exact type of project.
3. Have contingency in place.
Does that make sense? Telling me that companies can still make a dollar by releasing a buggy piece of software does not make my point valid. It only proves that THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT !
How many customers read the complains about bugs, lag, and not logging in? How many of those are turned away? Money out the window...
How many play for a month and un-sub because they feel cheated, frustrated, or are unhappy with the launch?
I don't have the numbers and I haven't done the research. I assume you don't have that information either. My guess is that by changing the process and investing more time, the pay-off would be worth it. Hell, you might even launch a Sci-Fi game a few weeks after the launch of another huge sci-fi'ish MMO like Aion so you can catch the rush of people who don't like Aion and are unsubbing rather than launching back to back and fighting a much larger company like that.
Not true, Guildwars did just that. And... Ok, no one else have pulled it off yet but it is possible, just extremly hard. You need someone like Arenanets Jeff Strain for a perfect launch (Diablo, Warcraft 3, have quited now BTW).
Still, the OP have a point. MMO companies releasing the game a year too early nowadays. It isn't just some issues like lag, odd errors and and login problems.
Take war. They cut out for of the 6 starting citys and several classes just a month before launch. And they have never patch in those citys as promised. They also cut all cool small things like the neat idea that the character models should change whne you level. And they totaly cut out the endgame too. One more year in development and the game would have been a very different game.
Or AoC. It had really bad performance at launch and had way to little content. If they would have waited another year they would have a lot more players today.
Anarchy online. DAoC. Everquest 2. Vanguard. Darkfall.
They all released way too early and and lost some or many players on it, Vanguard lost most of any game because of it. I do costs a lot of money to keep a game in development longer than you have to but games like Vanguard would have won that cash many times over.
DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) had a nearly perfect launch, previously noted the best in the business. You can remove that from your list, but if you meant perfect as in zero problems --nothing made with this much code will ever be perfect for years until after all the bug reports/ debugging and patches take place. It is financially impossible to do that without a huge bankroll, and as risky as MMO's are, no-one would finance years of beta-testing before a product is released.
To expect any game to be released 'perfect' is unrealistic. Also, with the stresses placed on a single server by /when an unexpected amount of players hit all at once, new, unexpected problems will occur (like one previous poster explained about World of Warcraft). That the majority of the issues were corrected within 24 hours is not only impressive, but show a comforting level of professionalism for those prospective subscribers apprehesive about a small "indie" company.
Releasing games too soon is sometimes a necessary evil. But I think if it has to be done, atleast continue to poor resources into finishing what was not finished, so the game gets up to speed as quickly as possible.
Agree
This game is one of the worst I bought with Roma Victor.
AOC, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, War, and even SWG are better games. It's not only a problem of graphism, not only a problem of bugs (this game has terrible issues; take a look at official forums ), it's a problem of gameplay. It's NOT a sandbox game, it's NOT a FPS, not a Tabula Rasa like, it's a very very very mediocre game, but not a cheap one.
Payed 49euros for this....
Stay away.
NB i'm not a troller, and played many many many mmorpgs, and was a beta tester for some mmorpgs. I can't understand why i payed for this... ah yeah thx to fanboys who told me it was the new sandbox game. it is NOT. It's another clone, but a bad one : boring and repetitive quests, ridiculous graphisms (omg the world ), full of bugs.
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/
before buying, wait for a trial (LOL ) and take a look to official forumsforums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/
Some links
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22864
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=20207
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22755
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22914
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22874
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22652
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=21375
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22881
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22895
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22598
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22689
I've played many MMO's over the years. I've yet to see one that was finished.
You are playing a video game. By definition that means you are not hardcore.
Agree.
And while I hear some people are having technical problems I have seen few issues other than issues of just general clunkiness in some of the mechanics/AI that I read are part of the ongoing polish the game is getting. All in all, I say the game is done though it does need refinement. The core gameplay is done, core crafting, and core characters stuff is done and good. It is the various superfluous elements that need polish and refinement and, frankly, this is a legitimate thing to deal with in live. Personally, I think FE just got a lot more attention than they figured and as much as anything that is causing some of the problems, or exposing them. I think FE has a good chance to do the EVE thing starting small and incrementally getting bigger and better provided the DEVs do good development by continually making improvements and additions over time. First on my list would be smoothing things out in terms of the transition of elements between typical third person MMO toolbar stuff and the first person shooter stuff - it works as it is now it is just a little rough in spots. Other than that, I think this game is in a good place to get better and better and I am interested to see evolve it over time.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Comparing Business to Business transactions to Business to consumer transactions is hardly valid. Being in the field for that long, one would expect you to know that. Why do you think IBM is gonna buy the $30000 router from Cisco over the $100 router from Best Buy?
In terms of software, companies buy into contracts when they buy the software. They sign contracts with caveats that must be included in said software and agree to use it for a period of time, usually several years. /That/ is why they are more serious about bugs. And even after that, they still have parts of the contract that state what happens in the event of bugs after that, with more serious ones being fixed within a set period of time or the software company has to start paying the buying company money until it's fixed, while the minor ones just get fixed in the next regular update.
With consumers, software companies don't have that safety net, nor have they been paid great sums of money for a guaranteed source of income for several years. They simply get money for the original purchase as well as some amount each month, that is not guaranteed and can only be guessed at. Why are they going to spend the millions of dollars for something like that when it has been proven over and over again that they can get away with patching it after the fact? And they're not legally liable because the game is playable.
So whatever point you're trying to make is invalidated with your comparison of apples to oranges. It's two totally separate arenas. And if you really believe that these companies are fly by night that don't follow any sort of procedure, please...
Thanks for the reply. Even sarcastic and trollish replies are appreciated. Business to Business transactions vs. Business to Consumer transactions have nothing to do with anything I said. I'm talking about PRODUCING the product... the steps.. procedures involved. I'm surprised someone whom has been reading English for such a long time wouldn't understand this.
You missing the point does not invalidate mine. If anything it "invalidates" your skills of observation. At the core of my original post (the one that started this whole discussion) as well as my latest post is this simple question:
Why does the process have to be so flawed?
I gave a great example/view of how a project is completed from within a company in order to show exactly how we keep a project rolling out as smoothly as possible. This includes:
1. Sharing information/project data/procedures/outlines with companies who have already launched MMO's to understand the flaws, problems, and unknowns.
2. Hire a project management team/group with experience in this exact type of project.
3. Have contingency in place.
Does that make sense? Telling me that companies can still make a dollar by releasing a buggy piece of software does not make my point valid. It only proves that THERE IS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT !
How many customers read the complains about bugs, lag, and not logging in? How many of those are turned away? Money out the window...
How many play for a month and un-sub because they feel cheated, frustrated, or are unhappy with the launch?
I don't have the numbers and I haven't done the research. I assume you don't have that information either. My guess is that by changing the process and investing more time, the pay-off would be worth it. Hell, you might even launch a Sci-Fi game a few weeks after the launch of another huge sci-fi'ish MMO like Aion so you can catch the rush of people who don't like Aion and are unsubbing rather than launching back to back and fighting a much larger company like that.
Your post makes no sense in the way that you are trying to present it. For one, the procedures are the same, as you say, /BUT/ the money to implement those procedures are not, resulting in disparate results between the two, which is my point. You are arguing that products that are sold to businesses should have the same quality as products sold to consumers, which we know isn't true in any realm of business. It cannot be because a business' requirements are different than a consumer's. Now, the argument about how this has to change then goes into the realm of how much would you pay for the privilege? Would you pay the $10000 a month that Bank of America pays to have a service contract with IBM over it's online banking platform that IBM is also developing? Or perhaps you'd pay the $15000 a month Etna pays Extream software for it's document management software tool, including support.
I say your argument is invalid because you get one or the other, not both. If you want better quality, then you will simply have to pay more. And in this environment where people pay $15/month with a little annoyance, how are you going to sell $100/month for none?
As to your other arguments, point 1 just shows you're an idiot. Businesses are not going to share /their/ trade secrets so that the consumer can have a better product. They won't work that way.
Point two will raise costs, which will then be transferred to the consumer. Also is the question of whether it is really needed. So far, experience shows us that 'no', it is not needed. You can rant and rave about how it might need to change, but in the foreseeable future, it's not.
And what contingency would you suggest? Again, it comes down to money. How much extra are you going to pay to have an uninterrupted gaming session? Businesses do what they do because consumers are fickle. You could have the best product in the world, but a consumer will still get bored with it, especially when there is no actual tangible product.
As far as lost sales and such, I doubt FE is suffering for subscribers or players right now and is probably pretty comfortable with the numbers. You're not selling anything here, and honestly, I don't think many people are buying.
Agree
This game is one of the worst I bought with Roma Victor.
AOC, Vanguard, Tabula Rasa, War, and even SWG are better games. It's not only a problem of graphism, not only a problem of bugs (this game has terrible issues; take a look at official forums ), it's a problem of gameplay. It's NOT a sandbox game, it's NOT a FPS, not a Tabula Rasa like, it's a very very very mediocre game, but not a cheap one.
Payed 49euros for this....
Stay away.
NB i'm not a troller, and played many many many mmorpgs, and was a beta tester for some mmorpgs. I can't understand why i payed for this... ah yeah thx to fanboys who told me it was the new sandbox game. it is NOT. It's another clone, but a bad one : boring and repetitive quests, ridiculous graphisms (omg the world ), full of bugs.
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/
before buying, wait for a trial (LOL ) and take a look to official forumsforums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/
Some links
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22864
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=20207
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22755
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22914
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22874
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22652
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=21375
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22881
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22895
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22598
http://forums.fallenearth.com/fallenearth/showthread.php?t=22689
Sorry to disappoint, but nobody is interested in your disappointment, dear "registered today"
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
I hate itt too,
its why im waiting for people to stop posting bad things about all the new games that are coming out and wait for them to post good things about the content and etc.
So by that time theyll be fully patched and ready to go.
Or well, i hope
lol
Just gotta be patient.
and just to add on to my comment above i hate how games like aion already have EXP packs coming out
why couldnt they just have included that in the game and had it complete then add on from there
its retarded i think.
What you are basically saying is its OK for Company A to produce a product of sub-par quality because they aren't the mega-corporation that produces quality stuff? That IS the whole point of the person who you are arguing with. If you do not have the funds to produce desired product, you either change HOW you make it or change WHAT you make it.
If you are making a car and you run out money making it, you can't just finish it up and still call it a car. "Oh you know, we didn't have enough money like Honda, so Its OK for us to make a care without wheels." - ridiculous. This thing should NOT have happened in the first place. A smart businessmen will not start something that is out of their league. What these so-called indie developers do is they get partial investments, and they HOPE they get more investments on the way. They HOPE they get enough resources to have a barely-playable game. When they CAN'T, they let the marketing department spin the hype and let CSR/PR department damage control.
This is BAD business. If businesses would go the way Blizzard went - producing polished games, then we would have several MMOs on the market right now all being playable, fun and without any groundbreaking bugs. most games that come out unfinished do not last long. People who defend these kind of games or even if they simply keep silent actually promote this type of business practice. If this keeps happening, next thing we know all new games are bugged, unplayable, missing major piece of content, get finished on the go after release... I don't want this to happen.
Long story short, if you can't predict how much a project cost, then you shouldn't even start working on it. Work on something more down to earth, more realistic. I am not happy at the state of FE. No1 warned me about bugged resources, about lag, about the crashes.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.