Corpse runs were in the game at release, but were one of the first things "disabled until we can properly fix them" by soe, because sometimes they would get locked and players would lose everything they owned. I recall a friend of mine running back to retrieve his equipment from his corpse, but being unable to access it due to the buggy state of the game. We sort of made a game out of mouring the corpe everytime we ran by it.
I think we all remember how bad the ticket system was back then.
@ Gurpslord
Projects the size of SWG have a backup of every single version of the software. If they wished, soe could pull out any version of the game and restore it to a server and have it running in a day or so. The current game isn't the only copy of the software and soe would not have to remove anything to return the game to any previous state.
As a matter of fact, I bet you the devs have interal servers storing old versions of the code so they can see the original code that powers certain systems. At they rate they cannabilize old content and systems I believe this is true.
The truth is, unlike other companies out there like Mythic and EA; SOE has a loathing for all their customers, all they care about is profits and are only really intested in thieir current player base. SOE will never release a Classisc server, because logistically it is just too difficult for them to keep up with.
Blizzard uses WOW to harvest hours played into bottles so that the dev team can remain immortal
Disclaimer: I do not work for SoE, nor have I ever, nor will I ever. I once was part of a player volunteer program that SoE ran but that was about it, I have no say in what SoE does. With that out of the way, I thought it would be interesting to discuss how SoE could go about Origin/Classic SWG Servers, if they ever had the time, resources and inclination to bring them up. I discussed this with SWG Developers long ago and they seemed keen on the idea, but the live game always takes presedence so this was always a pipe-dream. It's fun to talk about dreams though, so what would you like to see in the way of Origin/Classic SWG Servers? They would likely be brought up as part of the Test Center servers and receive only maintenance updates, no additional content. Which patch level would you want to play, if at all? Patch Level Pre-CU: Pre-publish 9 Pre-CU: (Literally just before the Combat Upgrade) CU: Just before the NGE.
I agree with the guy about three posts down from yours at this point it is fat too little far too late for SOE to get my money for this game. My reasoning for quitting wasnot the NGE though I was lucky it hit right after and put a stop on me going back to SWG. The problem now for me is if they were to come out at any time and roll back to classic servers it will make it obvious it is an ability they in fact always did have (though they have stated in the past it is not possible) and they just tucked that idea away until they thought it would be worth the most money to them. Again I'm not your average disgruntled vet who hated them for the NGE but I'd have some issues with anyone who considered themselves such but would crawl back to SOE after all these years.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Pre-Pub 9 with the problems fixed would be the best, but ANY incarnation would be far, far better than the NGE.
If SOE had nothing whatsoever to do with a classic server, my personal preference would be Pre-Pub 9, with problems fixed as well.
Any pre-cu server would be a vast improvement over the current NGE, flying ewok, loot lottery.
...and corpse runs. 8-)
I don't remember if it was late beta or early live that had these but I loved running to retrieve my items.
I remember that lol. Damn that was funny. I'm pretty sure that was in an early live version of the game as well.
You know, a lot of versions of the game were fun. Before holocrons, just living in the StarWars universe was fun. We figured, if you unlocked, you unlocked; if you didn't, you didn't. Since none of us knew how to do it, it was just the topic of speculation and cantina conversation. Also, we tended to act more "jedi-like" just in case that had something to do with it.
Imo, the holocrons turned the game into a jedi-frenzy/grindfest. This was a mistake.
I think this mistake came about though because they pushed a poorly thought-out system for jedi to start things off. The jedi system was implemented, according to the dev responsible for it, after the game went live, and all within a two week period. It seems to me that the ramifications on the game weren't well thought-out.
Tbh, I think a lot of the crap that eventually took place all goes back to the early release. Tons of stuff missing, other things broken. Systems not beta-tested for bugs or for how they would impact the overall game.
When devs actually listened to players about bugs, issues, and did something to fix these, the game would improve. This gave us some golden moments, and some hope. Then, however, it always seemed that someone up the food chain got impatient waiting for the positive trickle down effect. Just as we were starting to enjoy things, and tell friends about the improvements, someone in head office would order an ill-conceived, half-baked, full game revamp that would undermine all recent progress and cause more problems than it fixed.
Similarly, although I hated how the CU borked people's progress in the original game, a lot of things were getting fixed (e.g. profession revamps) and we finally got some new content (ToOW); when someone hit the panic button again and launched the NGE nuke.
Sometimes I wonder who had a more frustrating time, the players or the devs that had just put in tons of work on fixes or content only to see it go up in smoke.
Just before the Cu would be my prime choice. It was alittle less buggy and was when i really enjoyed the game the most.
Whether its in time or there would be ppl that would log or wouldnt i dont know. Personally i feel that only way to know is to have the servers up and watch and see. I know alot of ppl that will say they never come back but if you put the server in front of them and said its there they pay the sub and log just to see precu again. I think thats kinda how alot feel and would say that only when its up will you know if ppl will return or not.
I agree with the guy about three posts down from yours at this point it is fat too little far too late for SOE to get my money for this game. My reasoning for quitting wasnot the NGE though I was lucky it hit right after and put a stop on me going back to SWG. The problem now for me is if they were to come out at any time and roll back to classic servers it will make it obvious it is an ability they in fact always did have (though they have stated in the past it is not possible) and they just tucked that idea away until they thought it would be worth the most money to them. Again I'm not your average disgruntled vet who hated them for the NGE but I'd have some issues with anyone who considered themselves such but would crawl back to SOE after all these years.
I'm very much like this. I never "hated" SOE. I was just very disappointed that a leader in the industry didn't seem to understand the ramifications of what they intended to do , have a better plan for do it and much better execution while doing it. I tried many time to give them the benefit of the doubt until -at last- there was no doubt. SOE panicked in the face of WoW, sh!t their pants then blamed their customers - present and former - for the mess.
If they created a preNGE server now or around TOR time, that would plainly smack of desperation, which is just another form of panic. I've already seen SOE when they panic and it ain't pretty.
I find it amazing that, after all these years, any veteran would consider returning to SWG (run by SOE) for any reason. I think most claiming they would are just blowing hot air.
I find it amazing that, after all these years, any veteran would consider returning to SWG (run by SOE) for any reason. I think most claiming they would are just blowing hot air.
I don't really see it like that. A lot of people have always said if EA opened a classic UO server before a certain publish they would go back. Hell people that quit EQ say they would play before a paticular expansion.
The people who wouldn't go back are the ones who remember the community.. or it was their main reason for playing. I mean I can see a certain amount of people that would go back.. but that doesn't mean your friends would be there.
The main thing that SWG, or UO or most early MMO's (before changes) have is that there isn't anything like them on the market now. This is especially true in games with skill systems where you could design the character you wanted. If there was a skill based game on the market that I really liked right now.. Then I would never think about UO or SWG as anything but memories.
So even tho I think at some point.. to much time had gone by for me. The fact is there is nothing on the market right now I want to play... and "the old" pre-cu SWG would still be different. Most games are just a copy of everything else on the market with minor alterations.
*edited to add* I played DAoC again because of the "classic" servers. Even tho they weren't exactly classic they didn't have a lot of the stuff I didn't like. So when Mythic formed Ywain I canceled my subs and deleted the game from my hard drive. Relatively I learned to live with the CU in SWG the same as I learned to live with "classic" in DAoC.. but the NGE even with all the changes is just not a game I would have paid for. ToA had that same effect on DAoC for me.. /shrugs just a bunch more crap added that the game never needed, instead of fixing what was already there.
Originally posted by tman5 I'm very much like this. I never "hated" SOE. I was just very disappointed that a leader in the industry didn't seem to understand the ramifications of what they intended to do , have a better plan for do it and much better execution while doing it. I tried many time to give them the benefit of the doubt until -at last- there was no doubt. SOE panicked in the face of WoW, sh!t their pants then blamed their customers - present and former - for the mess.
I think soe was well aware of what they were doing. There are plenty of accounts from former soe devs who detailed the discussions about the effects of the nge if soe pushed it forward like they did. They knew they were going to lose everyone, but they also thought they would be replaced by more new players than what they would lose in old players.
You can still see that exact same mentality with how soe is handling their loot card games and station cash.
They simply do not care about their players at all and the people in charge of the division think all of the answers can be found in a marketing analysis at the bottom of a spreadsheet. Simply put, soe has long ago lost any connection they had with their customers and are run by people who have long since lost touch with making games.
Originally posted by Daffid011 I think soe was well aware of what they were doing. There are plenty of accounts from former soe devs who detailed the discussions about the effects of the nge if soe pushed it forward like they did. They knew they were going to lose everyone, but they also thought they would be replaced by more new players than what they would lose in old players. You can still see that exact same mentality with how soe is handling their loot card games and station cash. They simply do not care about their players at all and the people in charge of the division think all of the answers can be found in a marketing analysis at the bottom of a spreadsheet. Simply put, soe has long ago lost any connection they had with their customers and are run by people who have long since lost touch with making games.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
Originally posted by Daffid011 I think soe was well aware of what they were doing. There are plenty of accounts from former soe devs who detailed the discussions about the effects of the nge if soe pushed it forward like they did. They knew they were going to lose everyone, but they also thought they would be replaced by more new players than what they would lose in old players. You can still see that exact same mentality with how soe is handling their loot card games and station cash. They simply do not care about their players at all and the people in charge of the division think all of the answers can be found in a marketing analysis at the bottom of a spreadsheet. Simply put, soe has long ago lost any connection they had with their customers and are run by people who have long since lost touch with making games.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
This is how I see it also, based on interviews I've read with Smed or other SOE reps. It's all about ground-breaking new business models, or how people will give you more money via RMT than you might expect.
The MMO genre used to be about making an entertaining online video game. For some, I think it still is. For SOE, however, it seems that MMOs are viewed mainly as a vehicle to access people's credit cards. Two thumbs down.
Originally posted by Daffid011 I think soe was well aware of what they were doing. There are plenty of accounts from former soe devs who detailed the discussions about the effects of the nge if soe pushed it forward like they did. They knew they were going to lose everyone, but they also thought they would be replaced by more new players than what they would lose in old players. You can still see that exact same mentality with how soe is handling their loot card games and station cash. They simply do not care about their players at all and the people in charge of the division think all of the answers can be found in a marketing analysis at the bottom of a spreadsheet. Simply put, soe has long ago lost any connection they had with their customers and are run by people who have long since lost touch with making games.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
This is how I see it also, based on interviews I've read with Smed or other SOE reps. It's all about ground-breaking new business models, or how people will give you more money via RMT than you might expect.
The MMO genre used to be about making an entertaining online video game. For some, I think it still is. For SOE, however, it seems that MMOs are viewed mainly as a vehicle to access people's credit cards. Two thumbs down.
Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
If there was a skill based game on the market that I really liked right now.. Then I would never think about UO or SWG as anything but memories.
I don't know if you have tried Fallen Earth, but it is skill based. Though I will admit, like most new games it does have it's growing pains, but they seem to have a decent community, most are very friendly. Aswell unlike most MMO's I have played, you can see GM's on almost all the time who are very active in the chat channels, helping players out.
Though unlike alot of MMO's it is a MMOFPS, which some dont like since there is no auto aim.
Originally posted by Daffid011 I think soe was well aware of what they were doing. There are plenty of accounts from former soe devs who detailed the discussions about the effects of the nge if soe pushed it forward like they did. They knew they were going to lose everyone, but they also thought they would be replaced by more new players than what they would lose in old players. You can still see that exact same mentality with how soe is handling their loot card games and station cash. They simply do not care about their players at all and the people in charge of the division think all of the answers can be found in a marketing analysis at the bottom of a spreadsheet. Simply put, soe has long ago lost any connection they had with their customers and are run by people who have long since lost touch with making games.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
This is how I see it also, based on interviews I've read with Smed or other SOE reps. It's all about ground-breaking new business models, or how people will give you more money via RMT than you might expect.
The MMO genre used to be about making an entertaining online video game. For some, I think it still is. For SOE, however, it seems that MMOs are viewed mainly as a vehicle to access people's credit cards. Two thumbs down.
Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
It's not a matter of belief, I know people in the business who are passionate about what they create. They want to make the next coolest game on earth. Some people simply love their work, and it's more than just a means to an end.
Do they want to make money? Of course they do, but they do it while building something they also take professional pride in. It is very possible to think of making an excellent game and making money at the same time.
Some people only seem to see the dollar signs and miss everything else connected with gaming in general and MMOs in particular. I know there are people who think like this, and I think they do the entire genre a disservice with their single-minded obsession with my wallet. I think this mind-set leads to early releases, poor quality testing, bad development decisions, poor customer service, dishonest marketting etc. (many of the things that seem to plague MMOs that do poorly or fail outright).
You may not believe me, and that's your perogative. I simply know people who think in ways you may be unfamiliar with. Hopefully you'll bump into folks like this; it tends to be a postive experience. Also, the things they produce tend to be of a very high calibre; any thing less would simply be unnacceptable to them. This isn't the kind of thinking that seems to characterize SOE's handling of SWG. This is one reason I wouldn't play classic servers if SOE was offering them.
Not that I expect them to give us a pre-NGE just like I don't expect them to give us a classic EQ server, however even though I never played SWG I would definitely sign up for a classic server, just as I would go back to a classic EQ server.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
Originally posted by madeux Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
All companies are out to make money which is an unspoken understanding in any discussion. However the methods a company employs to achieve that goal are what come into question.
A very long time ago, soe started with a group of people who were passionate about making games and the result was a product that people loved. Today soe doesn't set out to make great games, they start with the concept of how to make the most money by changing game designs into revenue models chock full of microtransactions. That is why they have the most total mmos in the industry, but struggle to achieve the same level of succes as smaller companies. This was once the undisputed leader of the industry, but they are currently a small fraction of their former self.
The reason they have fallen so far and so hard is a direct result of the mindset of their leadership. A leadership that does nothing but talk about ushering in microtransactions into the genre with almost no plan on how they are going to be successful at doing it.
Long story short, soe has lost touch with players and no longer looks to create a product that will fill their needs.
Originally posted by madeux Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
All companies are out to make money which is an unspoken understanding in any discussion. However the methods a company employs to achieve that goal are what come into question.
A very long time ago, soe started with a group of people who were passionate about making games and the result was a product that people loved. Today soe doesn't set out to make great games, they start with the concept of how to make the most money by changing game designs into revenue models chock full of microtransactions. That is why they have the most total mmos in the industry, but struggle to achieve the same level of succes as smaller companies. This was once the undisputed leader of the industry, but they are currently a small fraction of their former self.
The reason they have fallen so far and so hard is a direct result of the mindset of their leadership. A leadership that does nothing but talk about ushering in microtransactions into the genre with almost no plan on how they are going to be successful at doing it.
Long story short, soe has lost touch with players and no longer looks to create a product that will fill their needs.
I'm a department head and have been hiring people in a service industry for more than 10 years now. If a candidate for any position sees their work as primarily a means to generate revenue for me, they are shown to the door.
I want people who are passionate about the service they provide first, then of course we will earn the revenue we deserve for our efforts. This, to me, is a business ethic that inspires excellence.
Putting revenue first, and seeing the service as only a means to that end, devalues the customer imo. It also devalues the service, leads to short-cuts, poor development, poor delivery, poor quality control and poor customer service. This leads to pissed off customers and, ironically, lost revenue. This is not a formula for success.
Too many of my managment colleagues in various fields seem to have lost sight of this principle imo.
Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
IMHO Richard Garriot made Ultima Online as a gamer/game maker.
I honestly believe that he and the others were only looking at game design 101...
"Will people want to play it?”
And the world stood up and said enthusiastically "YES!"
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Originally posted by madeux Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
All companies are out to make money which is an unspoken understanding in any discussion. However the methods a company employs to achieve that goal are what come into question.
A very long time ago, soe started with a group of people who were passionate about making games and the result was a product that people loved. Today soe doesn't set out to make great games, they start with the concept of how to make the most money by changing game designs into revenue models chock full of microtransactions. That is why they have the most total mmos in the industry, but struggle to achieve the same level of succes as smaller companies. This was once the undisputed leader of the industry, but they are currently a small fraction of their former self.
The reason they have fallen so far and so hard is a direct result of the mindset of their leadership. A leadership that does nothing but talk about ushering in microtransactions into the genre with almost no plan on how they are going to be successful at doing it.
Long story short, soe has lost touch with players and no longer looks to create a product that will fill their needs.
I'm a department head and have been hiring people in a service industry for more than 10 years now. If a candidate for any position sees their work as primarily a means to generate revenue for me, they are shown to the door.
I want people who are passionate about the service they provide first, then of course we will earn the revenue we deserve for our efforts. This, to me, is a business ethic that inspires excellence.
Putting revenue first, and seeing the service as only a means to that end, devalues the customer imo. It also devalues the service, leads to short-cuts, poor development, poor delivery, poor quality control and poor customer service. This leads to pissed off customers and, ironically, lost revenue. This is not a formula for success.
Too many of my managment colleagues in various fields seem to have lost sight of this principle imo.
ok get your phone ready in case you need 911
I whole-heartedly agree. You can see this very easily in the medical field. Within 2 minutes you can tell if the medical professional is in it for the money or for the "care". You can see it in most places.
Granted many might not have started this way but they've been "shown the light" by upper management and bean counters.
As a human being I notice first if a person is smiling. As a business professional I notice that and their actions to relate to how much they care about what they're doing.
But hey start beating someone over the head with wage budgets, loss, timelines.... they'll soon lose their passions and desire to do for the greater good.
I marvel at the management that will run short staffed to "save a buck" but then scratch their heads about bad surveys or even worse bitch out the staff because of them...
Until I sold my company, the number one thing I was focused on and vocal about to the people who helped determine my success was "product integrity." Every franchisee that listened to that had the most successful business.
Ironically the people who bought it were "money" people and they made some key changes to product and original concept.
Now instead of being the largest fastest growing company in it's respective field they are the catch-up company 1/5 the size of the leader...
Hrmm sounds familar.....
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
Originally posted by Daffid011 I think soe was well aware of what they were doing. There are plenty of accounts from former soe devs who detailed the discussions about the effects of the nge if soe pushed it forward like they did. They knew they were going to lose everyone, but they also thought they would be replaced by more new players than what they would lose in old players. You can still see that exact same mentality with how soe is handling their loot card games and station cash. They simply do not care about their players at all and the people in charge of the division think all of the answers can be found in a marketing analysis at the bottom of a spreadsheet. Simply put, soe has long ago lost any connection they had with their customers and are run by people who have long since lost touch with making games.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
This is how I see it also, based on interviews I've read with Smed or other SOE reps. It's all about ground-breaking new business models, or how people will give you more money via RMT than you might expect.
The MMO genre used to be about making an entertaining online video game. For some, I think it still is. For SOE, however, it seems that MMOs are viewed mainly as a vehicle to access people's credit cards. Two thumbs down.
Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
Badger, thank you for the well thought out post. It is much appreciated. Saying that, and as a fellow SWG subscriber, I do have a question. Did you even look thru the vet refuge? The community has been trying to get this accomplished for the last three years and SOE simply says no. Again, thank you for the effort on the write up. It was done well.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Badger, thank you for the well thought out post. It is much appreciated. Saying that, and as a fellow SWG subscriber, I do have a question. Did you even look thru the vet refuge? The community has been trying to get this accomplished for the last three years and SOE simply says no. Again, thank you for the effort on the write up. It was done well.
Badger has finally arrived at where most of us were in 2005. When the NGE disaster was imposed on everyone with very little warning, we first asked for a rollback simply to a functional game. Chat, combat, movement were all fubar. All we could do was stand around and send mail saying, "hey is your movement and chat completely broken too?"
When we were told that a rollback was a non-starter, we asked for "classic" servers. Live and let live. NGE folks want to play fps, 9 professions etc? Fine, just allow us a server to enjoy our skill system, player-based economy, creature-taming, more strategic combat, recently added content for all the deleted professions etc..
While most of us were asking for a classic server of some sort, I remember Badger busily supporting the NGE. Serious bugs were highlighted by many others, and he would suggest a ridiculous work-around like running around in circles to try to break the screen aggro/instant death caused merely by being foolish enough to use the new area heal for docs.
It took a while before instead of supporting the NGE, Badger actually started listing serious bugs and issues. Eventually I think he got this up to about 17 pages. I acknowledge that as a positive contribution, btw. But, now he talks about classic servers? Now?? Where were you 4 years ago man, when a classic server might have actually made a difference?
Won't happen. Sony already said so. If anything it would have been a sequel, but with SWTOR on the way, star wars fan's are drawn to it like twinkies. SWG had it's good moments, but companies tend to capitalize on the way SWG did things, who knows maybe another game will appear that won't have a Star Wars title, but will have all the good things it did have, plus upgraded graphics. Here's hoping.
Comments
@ Survuc:
Corpse runs were in the game at release, but were one of the first things "disabled until we can properly fix them" by soe, because sometimes they would get locked and players would lose everything they owned. I recall a friend of mine running back to retrieve his equipment from his corpse, but being unable to access it due to the buggy state of the game. We sort of made a game out of mouring the corpe everytime we ran by it.
I think we all remember how bad the ticket system was back then.
@ Gurpslord
Projects the size of SWG have a backup of every single version of the software. If they wished, soe could pull out any version of the game and restore it to a server and have it running in a day or so. The current game isn't the only copy of the software and soe would not have to remove anything to return the game to any previous state.
As a matter of fact, I bet you the devs have interal servers storing old versions of the code so they can see the original code that powers certain systems. At they rate they cannabilize old content and systems I believe this is true.
The truth is, unlike other companies out there like Mythic and EA; SOE has a loathing for all their customers, all they care about is profits and are only really intested in thieir current player base. SOE will never release a Classisc server, because logistically it is just too difficult for them to keep up with.
Blizzard uses WOW to harvest hours played into bottles so that the dev team can remain immortal
I agree with the guy about three posts down from yours at this point it is fat too little far too late for SOE to get my money for this game. My reasoning for quitting wasnot the NGE though I was lucky it hit right after and put a stop on me going back to SWG. The problem now for me is if they were to come out at any time and roll back to classic servers it will make it obvious it is an ability they in fact always did have (though they have stated in the past it is not possible) and they just tucked that idea away until they thought it would be worth the most money to them. Again I'm not your average disgruntled vet who hated them for the NGE but I'd have some issues with anyone who considered themselves such but would crawl back to SOE after all these years.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
If SOE had nothing whatsoever to do with a classic server, my personal preference would be Pre-Pub 9, with problems fixed as well.
Any pre-cu server would be a vast improvement over the current NGE, flying ewok, loot lottery.
...and corpse runs. 8-)
I don't remember if it was late beta or early live that had these but I loved running to retrieve my items.
Off topic but Trailor park boys for the win with the Bubbles picture.
Mortal Online/EarthRise/Project V13
TheVindicators.com
If SOE had nothing whatsoever to do with a classic server, my personal preference would be Pre-Pub 9, with problems fixed as well.
Any pre-cu server would be a vast improvement over the current NGE, flying ewok, loot lottery.
...and corpse runs. 8-)
I don't remember if it was late beta or early live that had these but I loved running to retrieve my items.
I remember that lol. Damn that was funny. I'm pretty sure that was in an early live version of the game as well.
You know, a lot of versions of the game were fun. Before holocrons, just living in the StarWars universe was fun. We figured, if you unlocked, you unlocked; if you didn't, you didn't. Since none of us knew how to do it, it was just the topic of speculation and cantina conversation. Also, we tended to act more "jedi-like" just in case that had something to do with it.
Imo, the holocrons turned the game into a jedi-frenzy/grindfest. This was a mistake.
I think this mistake came about though because they pushed a poorly thought-out system for jedi to start things off. The jedi system was implemented, according to the dev responsible for it, after the game went live, and all within a two week period. It seems to me that the ramifications on the game weren't well thought-out.
Tbh, I think a lot of the crap that eventually took place all goes back to the early release. Tons of stuff missing, other things broken. Systems not beta-tested for bugs or for how they would impact the overall game.
When devs actually listened to players about bugs, issues, and did something to fix these, the game would improve. This gave us some golden moments, and some hope. Then, however, it always seemed that someone up the food chain got impatient waiting for the positive trickle down effect. Just as we were starting to enjoy things, and tell friends about the improvements, someone in head office would order an ill-conceived, half-baked, full game revamp that would undermine all recent progress and cause more problems than it fixed.
Similarly, although I hated how the CU borked people's progress in the original game, a lot of things were getting fixed (e.g. profession revamps) and we finally got some new content (ToOW); when someone hit the panic button again and launched the NGE nuke.
Sometimes I wonder who had a more frustrating time, the players or the devs that had just put in tons of work on fixes or content only to see it go up in smoke.
Just before the Cu would be my prime choice. It was alittle less buggy and was when i really enjoyed the game the most.
Whether its in time or there would be ppl that would log or wouldnt i dont know. Personally i feel that only way to know is to have the servers up and watch and see. I know alot of ppl that will say they never come back but if you put the server in front of them and said its there they pay the sub and log just to see precu again. I think thats kinda how alot feel and would say that only when its up will you know if ppl will return or not.
I'm very much like this. I never "hated" SOE. I was just very disappointed that a leader in the industry didn't seem to understand the ramifications of what they intended to do , have a better plan for do it and much better execution while doing it. I tried many time to give them the benefit of the doubt until -at last- there was no doubt. SOE panicked in the face of WoW, sh!t their pants then blamed their customers - present and former - for the mess.
If they created a preNGE server now or around TOR time, that would plainly smack of desperation, which is just another form of panic. I've already seen SOE when they panic and it ain't pretty.
I find it amazing that, after all these years, any veteran would consider returning to SWG (run by SOE) for any reason. I think most claiming they would are just blowing hot air.
I don't really see it like that. A lot of people have always said if EA opened a classic UO server before a certain publish they would go back. Hell people that quit EQ say they would play before a paticular expansion.
The people who wouldn't go back are the ones who remember the community.. or it was their main reason for playing. I mean I can see a certain amount of people that would go back.. but that doesn't mean your friends would be there.
The main thing that SWG, or UO or most early MMO's (before changes) have is that there isn't anything like them on the market now. This is especially true in games with skill systems where you could design the character you wanted. If there was a skill based game on the market that I really liked right now.. Then I would never think about UO or SWG as anything but memories.
So even tho I think at some point.. to much time had gone by for me. The fact is there is nothing on the market right now I want to play... and "the old" pre-cu SWG would still be different. Most games are just a copy of everything else on the market with minor alterations.
*edited to add* I played DAoC again because of the "classic" servers. Even tho they weren't exactly classic they didn't have a lot of the stuff I didn't like. So when Mythic formed Ywain I canceled my subs and deleted the game from my hard drive. Relatively I learned to live with the CU in SWG the same as I learned to live with "classic" in DAoC.. but the NGE even with all the changes is just not a game I would have paid for. ToA had that same effect on DAoC for me.. /shrugs just a bunch more crap added that the game never needed, instead of fixing what was already there.
I think soe was well aware of what they were doing. There are plenty of accounts from former soe devs who detailed the discussions about the effects of the nge if soe pushed it forward like they did. They knew they were going to lose everyone, but they also thought they would be replaced by more new players than what they would lose in old players.
You can still see that exact same mentality with how soe is handling their loot card games and station cash.
They simply do not care about their players at all and the people in charge of the division think all of the answers can be found in a marketing analysis at the bottom of a spreadsheet. Simply put, soe has long ago lost any connection they had with their customers and are run by people who have long since lost touch with making games.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
This is how I see it also, based on interviews I've read with Smed or other SOE reps. It's all about ground-breaking new business models, or how people will give you more money via RMT than you might expect.
The MMO genre used to be about making an entertaining online video game. For some, I think it still is. For SOE, however, it seems that MMOs are viewed mainly as a vehicle to access people's credit cards. Two thumbs down.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
This is how I see it also, based on interviews I've read with Smed or other SOE reps. It's all about ground-breaking new business models, or how people will give you more money via RMT than you might expect.
The MMO genre used to be about making an entertaining online video game. For some, I think it still is. For SOE, however, it seems that MMOs are viewed mainly as a vehicle to access people's credit cards. Two thumbs down.
Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
I don't know if you have tried Fallen Earth, but it is skill based. Though I will admit, like most new games it does have it's growing pains, but they seem to have a decent community, most are very friendly. Aswell unlike most MMO's I have played, you can see GM's on almost all the time who are very active in the chat channels, helping players out.
Though unlike alot of MMO's it is a MMOFPS, which some dont like since there is no auto aim.
Sorry to derail the main topic.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
This is how I see it also, based on interviews I've read with Smed or other SOE reps. It's all about ground-breaking new business models, or how people will give you more money via RMT than you might expect.
The MMO genre used to be about making an entertaining online video game. For some, I think it still is. For SOE, however, it seems that MMOs are viewed mainly as a vehicle to access people's credit cards. Two thumbs down.
Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
It's not a matter of belief, I know people in the business who are passionate about what they create. They want to make the next coolest game on earth. Some people simply love their work, and it's more than just a means to an end.
Do they want to make money? Of course they do, but they do it while building something they also take professional pride in. It is very possible to think of making an excellent game and making money at the same time.
Some people only seem to see the dollar signs and miss everything else connected with gaming in general and MMOs in particular. I know there are people who think like this, and I think they do the entire genre a disservice with their single-minded obsession with my wallet. I think this mind-set leads to early releases, poor quality testing, bad development decisions, poor customer service, dishonest marketting etc. (many of the things that seem to plague MMOs that do poorly or fail outright).
You may not believe me, and that's your perogative. I simply know people who think in ways you may be unfamiliar with. Hopefully you'll bump into folks like this; it tends to be a postive experience. Also, the things they produce tend to be of a very high calibre; any thing less would simply be unnacceptable to them. This isn't the kind of thinking that seems to characterize SOE's handling of SWG. This is one reason I wouldn't play classic servers if SOE was offering them.
Not that I expect them to give us a pre-NGE just like I don't expect them to give us a classic EQ server, however even though I never played SWG I would definitely sign up for a classic server, just as I would go back to a classic EQ server.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
All companies are out to make money which is an unspoken understanding in any discussion. However the methods a company employs to achieve that goal are what come into question.
A very long time ago, soe started with a group of people who were passionate about making games and the result was a product that people loved. Today soe doesn't set out to make great games, they start with the concept of how to make the most money by changing game designs into revenue models chock full of microtransactions. That is why they have the most total mmos in the industry, but struggle to achieve the same level of succes as smaller companies. This was once the undisputed leader of the industry, but they are currently a small fraction of their former self.
The reason they have fallen so far and so hard is a direct result of the mindset of their leadership. A leadership that does nothing but talk about ushering in microtransactions into the genre with almost no plan on how they are going to be successful at doing it.
Long story short, soe has lost touch with players and no longer looks to create a product that will fill their needs.
All companies are out to make money which is an unspoken understanding in any discussion. However the methods a company employs to achieve that goal are what come into question.
A very long time ago, soe started with a group of people who were passionate about making games and the result was a product that people loved. Today soe doesn't set out to make great games, they start with the concept of how to make the most money by changing game designs into revenue models chock full of microtransactions. That is why they have the most total mmos in the industry, but struggle to achieve the same level of succes as smaller companies. This was once the undisputed leader of the industry, but they are currently a small fraction of their former self.
The reason they have fallen so far and so hard is a direct result of the mindset of their leadership. A leadership that does nothing but talk about ushering in microtransactions into the genre with almost no plan on how they are going to be successful at doing it.
Long story short, soe has lost touch with players and no longer looks to create a product that will fill their needs.
I'm a department head and have been hiring people in a service industry for more than 10 years now. If a candidate for any position sees their work as primarily a means to generate revenue for me, they are shown to the door.
I want people who are passionate about the service they provide first, then of course we will earn the revenue we deserve for our efforts. This, to me, is a business ethic that inspires excellence.
Putting revenue first, and seeing the service as only a means to that end, devalues the customer imo. It also devalues the service, leads to short-cuts, poor development, poor delivery, poor quality control and poor customer service. This leads to pissed off customers and, ironically, lost revenue. This is not a formula for success.
Too many of my managment colleagues in various fields seem to have lost sight of this principle imo.
Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
IMHO Richard Garriot made Ultima Online as a gamer/game maker.
I honestly believe that he and the others were only looking at game design 101...
"Will people want to play it?”
And the world stood up and said enthusiastically "YES!"
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
All companies are out to make money which is an unspoken understanding in any discussion. However the methods a company employs to achieve that goal are what come into question.
A very long time ago, soe started with a group of people who were passionate about making games and the result was a product that people loved. Today soe doesn't set out to make great games, they start with the concept of how to make the most money by changing game designs into revenue models chock full of microtransactions. That is why they have the most total mmos in the industry, but struggle to achieve the same level of succes as smaller companies. This was once the undisputed leader of the industry, but they are currently a small fraction of their former self.
The reason they have fallen so far and so hard is a direct result of the mindset of their leadership. A leadership that does nothing but talk about ushering in microtransactions into the genre with almost no plan on how they are going to be successful at doing it.
Long story short, soe has lost touch with players and no longer looks to create a product that will fill their needs.
I'm a department head and have been hiring people in a service industry for more than 10 years now. If a candidate for any position sees their work as primarily a means to generate revenue for me, they are shown to the door.
I want people who are passionate about the service they provide first, then of course we will earn the revenue we deserve for our efforts. This, to me, is a business ethic that inspires excellence.
Putting revenue first, and seeing the service as only a means to that end, devalues the customer imo. It also devalues the service, leads to short-cuts, poor development, poor delivery, poor quality control and poor customer service. This leads to pissed off customers and, ironically, lost revenue. This is not a formula for success.
Too many of my managment colleagues in various fields seem to have lost sight of this principle imo.
ok get your phone ready in case you need 911
I whole-heartedly agree. You can see this very easily in the medical field. Within 2 minutes you can tell if the medical professional is in it for the money or for the "care". You can see it in most places.
Granted many might not have started this way but they've been "shown the light" by upper management and bean counters.
As a human being I notice first if a person is smiling. As a business professional I notice that and their actions to relate to how much they care about what they're doing.
But hey start beating someone over the head with wage budgets, loss, timelines.... they'll soon lose their passions and desire to do for the greater good.
I marvel at the management that will run short staffed to "save a buck" but then scratch their heads about bad surveys or even worse bitch out the staff because of them...
Until I sold my company, the number one thing I was focused on and vocal about to the people who helped determine my success was "product integrity." Every franchisee that listened to that had the most successful business.
Ironically the people who bought it were "money" people and they made some key changes to product and original concept.
Now instead of being the largest fastest growing company in it's respective field they are the catch-up company 1/5 the size of the leader...
Hrmm sounds familar.....
I would like to state that in no way shape or form that anything I receive from SOE influences my opinion about SWG or their company. Im pretty much a typical average player enjoying the game.
I'd take CU right before NGE.
If they had a precu server i would resub in a heartbeat.
That's exactly what is going on IMO. It was once about the "game"...that's over. Now it's all about getting whatever else they can out of their customers. Look at the sheer quantity of loot that has been added since the TCG and compare that with 6 years of development and player requests and then tell me which one appears to be more important to SoE.
This is how I see it also, based on interviews I've read with Smed or other SOE reps. It's all about ground-breaking new business models, or how people will give you more money via RMT than you might expect.
The MMO genre used to be about making an entertaining online video game. For some, I think it still is. For SOE, however, it seems that MMOs are viewed mainly as a vehicle to access people's credit cards. Two thumbs down.
Do you honestly believe that anyone has ever made an MMO for any reason other than making money? Seriously?
Making money is a good thing. Fraud is not.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Badger, thank you for the well thought out post. It is much appreciated. Saying that, and as a fellow SWG subscriber, I do have a question. Did you even look thru the vet refuge? The community has been trying to get this accomplished for the last three years and SOE simply says no. Again, thank you for the effort on the write up. It was done well.
Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware
"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."
Badger has finally arrived at where most of us were in 2005. When the NGE disaster was imposed on everyone with very little warning, we first asked for a rollback simply to a functional game. Chat, combat, movement were all fubar. All we could do was stand around and send mail saying, "hey is your movement and chat completely broken too?"
When we were told that a rollback was a non-starter, we asked for "classic" servers. Live and let live. NGE folks want to play fps, 9 professions etc? Fine, just allow us a server to enjoy our skill system, player-based economy, creature-taming, more strategic combat, recently added content for all the deleted professions etc..
While most of us were asking for a classic server of some sort, I remember Badger busily supporting the NGE. Serious bugs were highlighted by many others, and he would suggest a ridiculous work-around like running around in circles to try to break the screen aggro/instant death caused merely by being foolish enough to use the new area heal for docs.
It took a while before instead of supporting the NGE, Badger actually started listing serious bugs and issues. Eventually I think he got this up to about 17 pages. I acknowledge that as a positive contribution, btw. But, now he talks about classic servers? Now?? Where were you 4 years ago man, when a classic server might have actually made a difference?
Won't happen. Sony already said so. If anything it would have been a sequel, but with SWTOR on the way, star wars fan's are drawn to it like twinkies. SWG had it's good moments, but companies tend to capitalize on the way SWG did things, who knows maybe another game will appear that won't have a Star Wars title, but will have all the good things it did have, plus upgraded graphics. Here's hoping.
Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2