Why is grinding such an evil subject?

Gorudu · October 2009

I don't get it. Everyone gets so touchy when people say the word "grind". It's not that bad. I'm not saying the grind in Aion isn't that bad, I'm saying, get this: Grinding isn't that bad or hard to do. It's pretty much the same thing as doing any of the quests you would normally do in every other friggen MMO except without the number X bonus exp at the end. Oh friggen boy. I mean, even the fanboys freak out when other people call it a grind. I just don't get it. Seriously, just blast some techno music/rock music/not country or rap music and kill mobs. At least in Aion the character animations and models are pretty to watch...

GPrestige · October 2009

Originally posted by Gorudu

I don't get it. Everyone gets so touchy when people say the word "grind". It's not that bad. I'm not saying the grind in Aion isn't that bad, I'm saying, get this: Grinding isn't that bad or hard to do. It's pretty much the same thing as doing any of the quests you would normally do in every other friggen MMO except without the number X bonus exp at the end. Oh friggen boy. I mean, even the fanboys freak out when other people call it a grind. I just don't get it. Seriously, just blast some techno music/rock music/not country or rap music and kill mobs. At least in Aion the character animations and models are pretty to watch...

It is simply not fun. While doing quest after quest may be a "grind", it gives the illusion that you are getting something done a lot quicker instead of just watching a bar increase. Not only that, but it adds variation. Story can also be included.

Then again, when players say the word "grind", they generally use it in a way that describes something that is not enjoyable and repetitive - whether its crafting, questing, killing mob after mob, etc.

We are there to play a game, which includes story and FUN, not to watch some database spreadsheets change their numbers - then again, thats all an MMO is really.

elderotter · October 2009

Originally posted by Gorudu

I don't get it. Everyone gets so touchy when people say the word "grind". It's not that bad. I'm not saying the grind in Aion isn't that bad, I'm saying, get this: Grinding isn't that bad or hard to do. It's pretty much the same thing as doing any of the quests you would normally do in every other friggen MMO except without the number X bonus exp at the end. Oh friggen boy. I mean, even the fanboys freak out when other people call it a grind. I just don't get it. Seriously, just blast some techno music/rock music/not country or rap music and kill mobs. At least in Aion the character animations and models are pretty to watch...

I think there should be an option for those who abhor grinding to just cut to the endgame. They would be issued a cap-lvl toon with good gear and could just end-game till they are bored(then they would whine about that I am sure). The rest of us, who are playing the game for the game's sake would be left in peace.

Anarchist420 · October 2009

Originally posted by Gorudu

At least in Aion the character animations and models are pretty to watch...

Really? Well that's worth 50 bucks and a sub fee. ooo Shiny!

elderotter · October 2009

Originally posted by Anarchist420

Originally posted by Gorudu

At least in Aion the character animations and models are pretty to watch...

Really? Well that's worth 50 bucks and a sub fee. ooo Shiny!

Thanks, I was looking for a good chuckle this morning and you have provided one. lol.

Gorudu · October 2009

The point is you grind in EVERY MMO the same way and the same places against the same mobs. If you compare grinding in Aion to grinding in WAR.... well, lets just say WAR had the most hideous animations ever put into place in an MMO. In WoW, I had to grind the last two levels from 58 to 60. Did I care? No. Will I ever care? No. Sure grinding isn't buckets of fun to do, but if you find grinding while doing a quest and grinding while just out and about to be two completely different things to where you think one is "fun" and one is just a huge pain, then there is seriously something wrong with you. The true fun of an MMO, in my opinion, is from the social interactions with other people like people in your party, guild, or whatever else you're doing.

BadMedicine · October 2009

Grind is simply another term for 'developers' failure to provide varied and fun content'.

LynxJSA · October 2009

Originally posted by Gorudu

I don't get it. Everyone gets so touchy when people say the word "grind". It's not that bad. I'm not saying the grind in Aion isn't that bad, I'm saying, get this: Grinding isn't that bad or hard to do.

You don't realize it but you just explained the problem right there. For some of us, grind is a negative word. Not because of any dislike for leveling but because we've been using the word for a decade or two and, at least in the English language, grind is a negative word. Tell someone who doesn't play MMOs that you are going home to play your favorite MMO and grind some quests and they will probably ask why you play the game.

MyDcmbr81 · October 2009

I am level 33 and have not had to grind yet unless I was like 2 bars from leveling and I just wanted to get the level quick without running all over, but that is voluntary not required so I don't think it counts. Actually my quest log is almost full, and then there are the Campaign quests besides. The quests are out there, you just have to look for them

dethgar · October 2009

A lot of us don't even enjoy questing. This is mainly due to boring quest stories and long times spent doing the same kind of quest with a different name. Grind is pointless, there is no lesson learned through it. It isn't a mental challenge. The challenge in MMO's is almost non-existent, and if a developer ever presents a good one, people complain its too hard.

xersent · October 2009

erm ok for the people that dont like grinding , how about you just give up on MMO's its that simple really , stop moaning , you know that every MMO has a grind , and if u do find one that has no grind then good for u , and while your at it why dont u stay there , you all sound like bloody broken records.

Romuluas · October 2009

See I have never understood what people liked about this new way quests are done. even the collection quests are easy, every mob for that quest drops what you have to collect. In EQ you could literaly go an hour without seeing what you needed for you quest, but you were with friends and had fun. Was it a grind sure, but you know what, most of the Quests in EQ at least had a good story behind them, and when you finished the quests, even the meaningless ones you at least felt like you accomplished something, instead of how it is now where it feels like you where just handed what you needed, at least that is how I feel about these new Quests.

Jimmydean · October 2009

Originally posted by Romuluas

See I have never understood what people liked about this new way quests are done. even the collection quests are easy, every mob for that quest drops what you have to collect. In EQ you could literaly go an hour without seeing what you needed for you quest, but you were with friends and had fun. Was it a grind sure, but you know what, most of the Quests in EQ at least had a good story behind them, and when you finished the quests, even the meaningless ones you at least felt like you accomplished something, instead of how it is now where it feels like you where just handed what you needed, at least that is how I feel about these new Quests.

I agree, I'd much rather fight mobs, especially with friends, than run from Bill to Jill for a reason that I don't even care about nor bother to look at.

Shannia · October 2009

Even Aion isn't near as bad as the first generation of MMOGs.

The problem isn't from the old school gamers. The problem is the cross over console/RPG gamers that have moved into the MMOG scene. I don't blame them for coming over. I just wish they'd shut up about the grind and realize that every single MMORPG has a grind and that grind is what keeps you paying your subscription fee. The sooner these cross over players realize that, the happier we'll all be.

LynxJSA · October 2009

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by Romuluas

See I have never understood what people liked about this new way quests are done. even the collection quests are easy, every mob for that quest drops what you have to collect. In EQ you could literaly go an hour without seeing what you needed for you quest, but you were with friends and had fun. Was it a grind sure, but you know what, most of the Quests in EQ at least had a good story behind them, and when you finished the quests, even the meaningless ones you at least felt like you accomplished something, instead of how it is now where it feels like you where just handed what you needed, at least that is how I feel about these new Quests.

I agree, I'd much rather fight mobs, especially with friends, than run from Bill to Jill for a reason that I don't even care about nor bother to look at.

"The Quest" by KalSeth

Jimmydean · October 2009

Originally posted by LynxJSA

Originally posted by Jimmydean

Originally posted by Romuluas

See I have never understood what people liked about this new way quests are done. even the collection quests are easy, every mob for that quest drops what you have to collect. In EQ you could literaly go an hour without seeing what you needed for you quest, but you were with friends and had fun. Was it a grind sure, but you know what, most of the Quests in EQ at least had a good story behind them, and when you finished the quests, even the meaningless ones you at least felt like you accomplished something, instead of how it is now where it feels like you where just handed what you needed, at least that is how I feel about these new Quests.

I agree, I'd much rather fight mobs, especially with friends, than run from Bill to Jill for a reason that I don't even care about nor bother to look at.

"The Quest" by KalSeth

I love it, mostly because it's truth! bahaha

Zhqrxt · October 2009

Gameplay without variation might suit some ppl - some ppl like to sit for hours pulling the lever on Onearmed Bandit. Other ppl will get fed up at some point; Aion is borderline to much. It do help getting up in lvl, since you add cooldowns to your reportoire ( if one dare waste them on mobs in a pvpve inverioment). But honestly, a well polished game anno 2009 should really have made a effort to renew or at least enhance the player versus mob gameplay abit, compared to previous releases.

Had Aion had more interactive combat, we would prolly have seen 9+ reviews as a generel trend, instead of all the "..almost there" reviews.

Lasastard · October 2009

grind = lack of content - for me, anyway.

Companies got away with it in the early days, but with improving technology, commercially available MMO-kits to reduce some aspects of development and so on I personally don't accept that anymore. It's lazyness and a lack of skill/vision. Some players enjoy such mindless tasks and get some kind of rewarding feeling from it, but I sure as hell don't...

Fawarendan · October 2009

I couldn't agree more with Gorudu. Grinding is and will probably always be a huge part of 99% of the MMO's out there. We can't escape from it, the only thing left for us to do is wait for the Dev that has enough creativity to change this (and i don't believe this will happen soon).

Ok, enough with the negative speech. I believe that almost everything that u do in a common MMO can be considered grinding. Such things as kill X mobs, pick Y objects, deliver this to certain NPC, or any other boring task with no logical or story can be considered grinding, and this includes crafting for obligation or for gold. So, whats left? The tasks that I consider fun in a MMO, that are grouping and meeting other people, go hunt a boss by my own will (not a npc one), participate in events (organized by the GM's or by the players), PvP, explore and even RP.

Grinding nowadays is so "evil" to the MMO community but people don't even realize that a game that offers a linear non-stop questing progression is also a grinding game. Thats why EvE/UO are/were so successful, u can do pretty much everything u want in those plus the grinding aspect, and always interacting with the world and the people around you, that's why we currently need more real sandbox or really good themeparks MMO's.

I've never heard of a game that offers 100% grind (mostly because it's still online) or 100% sandbox (because it would have no sense at all). Therefore, a good MMO is one that gives moments of both types of tasks without tilting too much to one or another. Unfortunately, i haven't played Aion yet, so I can't say anything about if it's really a grinding pain, but I can say that grinding or not in a game is also a player choice. If you want to hit max level in one week, well, you WILL grind in ANY game. But if u take ur time and enjoy the experience, I'm sure it'll be much more pleasant.

ctshame · October 2009

it seems like now a days players consider everything a grind. what happened to all the older games when players were jsut enjoying the game even when there was grind. it seems people have to high of standards and if your bored with the game then just quit instead of complaining of grind because eventually everything will be a grind because there wont be anything left to do.

dethgar · October 2009

Originally posted by ctshame

it seems like now a days players consider everything a grind. what happened to all the older games when players were jsut enjoying the game even when there was grind. it seems people have to high of standards and if your bored with the game then just quit instead of complaining of grind because eventually everything will be a grind because there wont be anything left to do.

Because the first time around it's new and exciting. But we're close to 10 years into the grind era, and MMO's simply haven't attempted enough to create that feeling again. New concepts aren't being developed or used. MMO's have become cookie cutter, in the same way FPS games have. It's time to deviate from the current pattern, and introduce a new archetype to break the mold of the past 10 years.

Zhqrxt · October 2009

Originally posted by dethgar

Because the first time around it's new and exciting. But we're close to 10 years into the grind era, and MMO's simply haven't attempted enough to create that feeling again. New concepts aren't being developed or used. MMO's have become cookie cutter, in the same way FPS games have. It's time to deviate from the current pattern, and introduce a new archetype to break the mold of the past 10 years.

Couldnt agree more. MMO need evoloution, not resignation. And especially in the field which MMO is 95% all about; killing mobs. Its basicly what you do in theese games, with a "holiday" in a Battleground or some pvp after you have killed enough mobs to actually be viable. Basicly what the developers renews is all the things around the main thing; graphic, ui, customied appereances and suchs - yet they let the mobkilling mechanics continue out of the same boring road.

And besides; i dont think ppl just suddenly started to complain about grind. The grind in AIon really do feels more boring then the average mmo out there. AOC, War and WOW all have issues, but none of them had ppl complaining about the grind in same amount as ppl are about Aion. Aion have alot off qualitys, and the grinding could have been even more monotone, but the important thing is, it could allso have been so much more. -Instead of making the combat slightly more fun then its presessors, it have ended up beeing slighlty more boring. Regression instead of progression.

Tisiphone · October 2009

Real life is a grind. I don't know how a game could be less of one in the long run. I mean, think about what you do each day...

Wake up. ((Status is rested, decreasing over time))
Eat ((Status is fed, decreasing over time))
Greet family / significant other ((increases happiness and boosts our social skill slightly... unless the roll is botched!))
And then... options!
Go to School - skill at ((insert course here)) increases.
Go to Work - skill at ((insert job here)) increases. Receive x dollars for your work.
Stay home and play games... ((nothing really increases, but stress is sure lower...))

Then we go home and go to sleep and it starts over, with the objective being receiving money, keeping our stats and skills in order, and repeating it all over again.

Okay, seriously, I know that there's a lot more to life than this and that my analogy was grossly oversimplified, but I'm just trying to make a basic point:

If quests, missions, and crafting in MMORPGs are a grind, then what else is there? The end objective of a game is to make your character better at whatever he, she, or it does. If your character is a swordswoman who also cooks, at some point, gosh darn it, you're going to have to swing that sword and bake some wily mandragora cakes to increase your skill unless you throw out anything relevant to reality at all.

I suppose the answer is diversity in the places you swing your sword, the things you swing it at, and the sort of things you're baking your cakes with. You can make things skill based or level based, quest based or fight based, or anywhere in between, but those basic actions still have to happen.

So, is the complaint that the environments and enemies are too redundant? Do you want more "useless" tasks or trade skills that don't directly pertain to your job to do?

jaxsundane · October 2009

Originally posted by Gorudu

I don't get it. Everyone gets so touchy when people say the word "grind". It's not that bad. I'm not saying the grind in Aion isn't that bad, I'm saying, get this: Grinding isn't that bad or hard to do. It's pretty much the same thing as doing any of the quests you would normally do in every other friggen MMO except without the number X bonus exp at the end. Oh friggen boy. I mean, even the fanboys freak out when other people call it a grind. I just don't get it. Seriously, just blast some techno music/rock music/not country or rap music and kill mobs. At least in Aion the character animations and models are pretty to watch...

For some it is just not a "comfort zone" myself included, I tend to get into the lore of the games I play I enjoy reading and completing quests and most of all it gives me something else to focus on as opposed to whatever random number I'm trying to get to in getting ultimately to the next level. Now think of it that way reaching your next level is a goal and not the goal unless of course you are forced to grind mobs to get to that next level.

What I think is a more telling question is why are some so bothered by the fact that some are opposed to the "grind", and I don't mean to caste blame of this your way but I think you have seen alot of the posts as well people seem to take objection with the fact that there is apparently a large part of the population who would like to have other things to do than mindlessly stand out in the woods and kill, adding quests should be one of the easiest things to do for an mmo so why so much resistance to people being given the option to avoid said grind, adding quests does not force anyone to do them for those who like to grind it should have no effect yet it still seems to bother them.

GPrestige · October 2009

With all these justifications here, the simply truth of the matter is: the average gamer does not like to do the same OBVIOSULY (key word here) boring crap over and over. Keep in mind that the general population is stupid. Whether they are collecting 10 bear asses or 10 mystical waterdrops from the fountain of poon, it appears to be a diverse event. Also, to have XP come in in a big chunk, and to "Clear" certain zones of quests feels more like an accomplishment then just ONE MORE MONSTER - or a fraction of the XP bar.

Quests also emphasize exploring different regions of a map, while grinding can be in the same place for hours. However, repeatable quests appear as a grind, thats why a lot of people complain about how annoying dailies are in WoW. It isn't different everytime, its the same damn thing. How a majority of you posters here don't understand that absolutely astounds me. Then again, I did say the general population is stupid

glid · October 2009

To be honest i think it's the Warhammer Online Syndrome. Most people wanna lvl up in pvp, craft in pvp, loot in pvp, get AP in pvp. Grinding is part of Mmos and their patch that made LFG readable again made it much easier to find a group and enjoy some teamplay. EZ mode is not profitable.

Most casual players who wanna get to 50 in a month are wrong. What's the point enjoying a game when (and only when) you have achieved everything?

The longer you play the better. There is a lot of content even at low levels and many ways to enjoy the game. Rushing to 50 is just dumb. Players should just focus on what they like.

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