It's interesting that the internet was created in the US, the backbone resides in the US. But Europeans get faster connections with no bandwidth caps and Americans get slower connections with bandwidth caps.
It would be interesting to see it taken over and regulated as a utility because let's face it each year the internet gets regulated more into our lives and in fact is how some people take care of business and all of their bills. The internet costs are already fairly ridiculous so I don't know how much more overpriced they could get here in the US.
Also there have been bids by for profit companies to take over the internet from the non-profit company that runs it. The result of that would be far worse then having it regulated. They could control what sites you could visit and what you could do with the internet not to mention raise prices etc.
well you see my school was one of those "tech schools" you always hear about. It's made for those who want to go into netsec or software engineering. There's some other media related courses but that's about it.
And our IT never said "oh we have a built in filter" they were far from it. They said "we're stopping torrenting" yet somehow people were still torrenting as you cannot stop it unless you literally block every port except 80 and also due a few other things. But anyway, there was a guy who had his own server up and running. That's right some guy on campus had his own WoW Private server running. That thing stayed onw for a few weeks. Did the school confiscate his server? I don't believe so. Why? b/c the same thing started happening again a little ways down the road. It was just plain horrible, our IT department was full or morons who almost never worked. And yet sometimes the staff would be like "oh feel sorry for them they're overworked." Well then why don't you hire more? We're all paying you to have our intranet and internet up 24/7 as this is a school where our entire life revolves around the web.
This was b/c they FORCED US to turn in our homework on this horrible written software called "ecollege" even on campus. We had to use this horribly buggy software. Back when firefox 3.0 came out. They were JUST THEN supporing IE6. it's byfar the worst thing i've ever had to deal with. So there was no excuse for it being down. AS all of our assignments, our discussions we had to do etc, were all online. So if it was down we lost precious time. Also on the mattter of it being a tech school which has netsec and software engineering being their two main "show everyone this" careers. Their software doesn't support linux. The school doesn't even support it. That ecollege company only supports windows. My first two horrible programming classes which i had to set through all used WINDOWS ONLY software. YET we're supposed to be a school of technology. Anyway now i'm rambling.
If a school has the internet, they should provide it for you so you can relax. If they filter out things like Online MMOs they're severaly hurting their potential students.
Well didn't know that bill was coming up. I guess it's time to contact my senators. And set up a meeting with them. I'M NOT going to go for that kind of shit. This is that same old shit that was talked about on the chans for along time. You pay for the internet like cable. You get to "choose" which sites you go to. It's pretty much that b/c if they're like oh he's going to "www.site.com" we better make his speed go at .1Kb/s. But OH he's going to our home page. Let's make it up to 1.5Mb/s. With that said, where i live there's "magically" no other isps that service my area except "hugesnet" which anyone who's ever used their service knows is byfar the biggest fraud ever. So there's nothing else that i can do. I have to sit here with my "1.5Mb/s" internet as they say it is. But in reality it's normally ~70KB/s to ~100KB/s for most of the day. But can i do anything? Nope, somehow Comcast, Cox, Verizon, AT&T and all of the others "magically" don't service my town. I find it great that they don't. Just plain old great. Right now i'm paying 40$ a month for "1.5Mb/s" internet. Which is slow 99% of the time. Buggy as hell and well isn't too reliable. If i had a choice i'd change it right away. I wish someone else would come out here and set up shop. That way my telephone company couldn't hold their horrible monopoly on this place. They'd make a killing. My friend out in CA tells me he gets 25Mb/s for 25$ a month. And that's unmetered. Also the EU jesus i wish i was over there right now. I'D LOVE to have that kind of network. Currently i've been looking at server costs just out of curiosity. In the US you pay ~2x as much for a server that has bandwith restrictions as you do for one in the UK which has none. It's crazy and that's all i can say. It's byfar the most wild thing that i've ever seen. As these ones like comcast and roadrunner attempt to put caps on it. It's completely pointless really. B/c it all balances out. It's COMPLETELY pointless. 90% of the people who get 512Kb/s+ net speed will only maybe download an attachment or two everyday. So they're barely using any bandwith at all. So those who use alot are balancing it out if not more. I HATE how the internet is in this area. When i was out in college before teh old person who ran the dorms left. That internet was amazing. I swear we had a 100Mb/s connection in the dorms. I got ~25MB/s avg. dl speed on speedtest when he was there. It was amazing. Well he quit, then the school got someone new. Actually two people, everything went down hill. The net was down 50% of the time, and also it'd go down to insanely low speeds my ping in wow was over 700Ms 90% of thetime. It was redicolous. Alot of the first year students who were there for their two semesters or well one semester never came back. They said screw this we need our internet. Alot of the people who just go out and hang around said "oh just go into the commons". Yeah sure alot of people went in there but the point was we were paying for it. Until companies have broadband EVERYWHERE i mean every company should have service providing in EVERYPART of the us. Until they do it won't get anybetter.
Also one of the site managers should seriously fix these forums. They're not letting me use my firefox builtin spellchecker.
If you're shopping for a decent ISP (I don't think good ones exist) and don't mind dealing with a cable company WOW has great customer service, especially compared to TW in my area, a great connection and I haven't heard anything about limiting my bandwidth yet. This is around Columbus OH, though.
Played in some form: UO til tram, AC, EQ, AO, WW2O, PS, SB, CoH, AC2, Hor, LoTRO, DDO, AoC, Aion, CO, STO Playing: WoW (for gf), WAR Waiting For: SWTOR, FFXVI Hoping For: DCUO, Secret World, Earthrise -S- (UO Sonoma)
Infrastructure should be a government responsibility to build and then private companies can charge for the use. Why? To ensure universal access and private choice of provider. Either of the extremes are worse than the middle.
It saddens me how CHEAP most of you get your internet for. 7 EUROS a month? What?!
Here in Canada it's extreme.
Currently, our only good ISP here, Rogers, charges us 69.99/month CAD. 25mbps download, 1mbps upload, and 125gb monthly cap. It's pathetic. I hit my cap all too often.
However, yay for the internets.
EDIT: I forgot to add something like 17% tax on that, as well as "access fees" of $8 a month.
Well Im glad I have charter I pay for 10meg up/down So if they put a cap on me I will find another company.
To bad for the guys stuck using comcast and cant find another option. I am also glad I dont use at&t the worst company in the world. Bad enough I got a phone via them, I can imagine having to use their dsl that I hear is really slow.
It saddens me how CHEAP most of you get your internet for. 7 EUROS a month? What?! Here in Canada it's extreme. Currently, our only good ISP here, Rogers, charges us 69.99/month CAD. 25mbps download, 1mbps upload, and 125gb monthly cap. It's pathetic. I hit my cap all too often. However, yay for the internets. EDIT: I forgot to add something like 17% tax on that, as well as "access fees" of $8 a month.
My friend in Quebec uses Axion, and it's about $50 or $60/mo with a 6mbps download and only an 80GB limit per month! That's right folks, you need to stand up and speak out about how you don't want your service metered. Don't just complain about it to your friends. You need to find out the proper places to send letters to your ISP and write them. Get your friends to write them, change service, organize petitions, whatever it takes.
Well Im glad I have charter I pay for 10meg up/down So if they put a cap on me I will find another company. To bad for the guys stuck using comcast and cant find another option. I am also glad I dont use at&t the worst company in the world. Bad enough I got a phone via them, I can imagine having to use their dsl that I hear is really slow.
erictlewis, you may want to check with Charter because they were doing something with caps back in Feb of this year. Something like a 100GB cap for people at 15mbps and under, or 250GB cap for over 15mbps connections.
Here in Montana the only provider we have charges $50+ for the slowest cable connection of 8mbs. The internet is turning into something as used, and taken for granted, as electricity. I hope someday when my kids are using a globalized tera-bs connection i can laugh about this.
I find it hilarious how people act like such helpless morons when it comes to stuff like this. The internet is not a "Privilege" you pay money for the shit, you get what you pay for simple. If ISP's do something you don't like then complain, as for saying oh they don't listen. Guess what they WILL listen if they're going broke because no one is buying their product. People need to start thinking business and the money they put in for stuff, money runs the world so start acting like it. You're as helpless as you make yourself simple....
While you are correct in theory, reality is quite another matter. Take Comcast(please...) for example. In all too many places they are pretty much the ONLY option for high speed broadband(I don't consider 1.5 meg DSL high speed...). Not only that, but cable companies have been suing towns/cities that decide to install their own optical networks(even when the cable companies refused to wire the towns up...). They really don't care if people complain(have you ever had to deal with their so called tech support?...). From their perspective, if you want high speed broad band, they all too often are the only game in towm. So, where are the complainers going to go?
Australia (and I know South Africa also does it) has had download limits since the internet was born, and seriously, if you know your monthly usage then you just pay for what you need.
Personally I have 20 GB offpeak download, and 12 GB on peak download. That means that if I want to download anything then i set the scheduler to download it between the times of 2am and 12pm (offpeak), or I set it to download before i go to work so that it is finished before 12pm. it is not hard to work out.
I know many MMO players that have only a 1 or 2 GB limit on their connection, this works fine if you are not downloading full games or they dont suddenly do a 700MB patch. A second problem is some ISPs also count uploads in their limit and some people do get suckered by it which can use a lot of the limit if the MMO uses a torrent downloader like WoW.
So what happens when the amount runs out? Well, the speed drops to dialup speeds which, for comparison, is enough to play WoW without grouping or raiding. Remember that most MMO's are only transferring small amounts of data in order to reduce their own bandwidth and costs, so MMOs seriously do not take up much of your download limit.
I kissed my internet goodbye earlier, when it was leaked the UK govts draconian new piracy plans.
The Pirate Finder General? I've heard about that. Its so mad that I'm hoping that even the normally passive English will do something about the politicians involved. They should be out of office, and who ever appointed the current nut case needs to lose office as well.
Honestly, I wish this article wouldn't have been written. One of the many things I love about gaming, is how politics stays out of it for the most part. Any time an article is written that discusses politics, it's there as a platform for the author to make a political wish-list of how they want to be served. So by definition the discussion starts off from a selfish and biased point of view.
I'll just say this:
Make no mistake about it. Government is a powerful and violent force. To ask the government for something is about as close as you can get to signing a deal with the devil.
The words Universal Broadband make me shudder... Honestly, I wish this article wouldn't have been written. One of the many things I love about gaming, is how politics stays out of it for the most part. Any time an article is written that discusses politics, it's there as a platform for the author to make a political wish-list of how they want to be served. So by definition the discussion starts off from a selfish and biased point of view. I'll just say this:
Make no mistake about it. Government is a powerful and violent force. To ask the government for something is about as close as you can get to signing a deal with the devil.
Well stated. As much as I loath and despise Comcast, having government involved would be even worse.
The government does not have to step in and control internet, it just has to put up incentives for its development because apparently you guys are stagnating for years in that department while all over Europe things are improving. In particular Serbian internet has GREATLY improved under pressure from the European Union guys.
My ISP was so bad about their downtimes I actually started keeping track in an excel spread sheet of times dates etc that the outages were occuring. It got so bad that they'd just start emailing people that they were doing downtime weekly to repair or replace systems, i marked all of this down as well and noted exact time of loss of service. After several weeks of this AND getting a bill from my company who would refuse to send out techs to fix the lines until several hours after an outage would start I took it up with them directly.
I took my spreadsheet electronically and print out to their customer service office. Requested to speak with the manager and/or the owner (its a pretty small isp). Sat down with the guy and went over numbers and their lack of a change management process and had them basically end up giving me about 3 months free service and helping them draft a change management process so that they would reduce the hours of downtime for actually fixing/replacing gear to late hours (off hours etc) and mimizing downtime to the average users. Also had my modem replaced about 3 times now due to lighting strikes due to the bad grounding they never installed. So all in all, everyone can make a little change but you have to stay on 'em and be on your game, dot all your i's and cross all your t's. Take it to the man, or else threaten to take it to the local newspaper and tv station to make sure they get bad press...that worked extremely well....
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
I work for my ISP ahhh the benefits
Seriously though on an average High Speed internet connection, and lets take my ISP for example, we have 1.6 million customers in Canada and the middle package has a bandwidth cap of 60GB. We see less than 0.5% go over that per month and if they do there are no extra charges with a 3 strike rule. A person playing mmorpg's possibly say 3 of them and lets say another 2 online games like FPS's wont even come close to 25GB per month. Problems can arise if you download the games or large patches though.
Hm.. Might not help latency though.. Maybe it could or maybe it would make it worse.. not sure. Depends how close you are to servers of the games I guess.
I work for my ISP ahhh the benefits Seriously though on an average High Speed internet connection, and lets take my ISP for example, we have 1.6 million customers in Canada and the middle package has a bandwidth cap of 60GB. We see less than 0.5% go over that per month and if they do there are no extra charges with a 3 strike rule. A person playing mmorpg's possibly say 3 of them and lets say another 2 online games like FPS's wont even come close to 25GB per month. Problems can arise if you download the games or large patches though.
tbh its not that much about the cap as about the feeling of having limitations, as with monitoring internet,phone calls etc....if there isn't a law, that doesnt mean they can't or they don't do it...whoever thinks that it's naive.
As for governments they don't really or should they control the internet...just take care and reinforce consumer protection and maybe lower the taxes for an ISP which installs xxx km of high speed lines for a certain period of time or something to that effect.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. A. Einstein
The reason we can't "make" some of these companies do what we want is because they already have the government backing them through the use of contracts. Comcast and Time-Warner exchanged some of the markets they provided service for a few years ago, so that they could each shore up in a given region and centralize better. Now, Time-Warner generally provides to the northeastern U.S. (as I understand it), and Comcast pretty much dominates in the southeastern (and/or southwestern) area.
Various factions have been trying for over a decade to profit from the popularity of the internet. The government attempted to impose taxes on the use of it a few years ago. More recently, the ISPs themselves have threatened not only to cap our total amount of usage of their wires to play our games and illegally download stuff, but to even restrict what sites and services we even have access to. So far, none of this has worked, but it is only a matter of time before someone cooks up a really good scheme, sells the right people on it, and we'll suddenly find ourselves with a fenced-in internet.
Hate politics all you want. I sure as hell do. But don't stick your head in the sand, expecting it all to work itself out. Government has a tendency to overprotect people through regulation. And I think the last four years of corporate shenanigans have pointed out that no private company will ever have our "best interests" at heart as opposed to lining their own pockets.
You don't have to be an activist to not want stupid things to happen to you.
Comments
It's interesting that the internet was created in the US, the backbone resides in the US. But Europeans get faster connections with no bandwidth caps and Americans get slower connections with bandwidth caps.
It would be interesting to see it taken over and regulated as a utility because let's face it each year the internet gets regulated more into our lives and in fact is how some people take care of business and all of their bills. The internet costs are already fairly ridiculous so I don't know how much more overpriced they could get here in the US.
Also there have been bids by for profit companies to take over the internet from the non-profit company that runs it. The result of that would be far worse then having it regulated. They could control what sites you could visit and what you could do with the internet not to mention raise prices etc.
well you see my school was one of those "tech schools" you always hear about. It's made for those who want to go into netsec or software engineering. There's some other media related courses but that's about it.
And our IT never said "oh we have a built in filter" they were far from it. They said "we're stopping torrenting" yet somehow people were still torrenting as you cannot stop it unless you literally block every port except 80 and also due a few other things. But anyway, there was a guy who had his own server up and running. That's right some guy on campus had his own WoW Private server running. That thing stayed onw for a few weeks. Did the school confiscate his server? I don't believe so. Why? b/c the same thing started happening again a little ways down the road. It was just plain horrible, our IT department was full or morons who almost never worked. And yet sometimes the staff would be like "oh feel sorry for them they're overworked." Well then why don't you hire more? We're all paying you to have our intranet and internet up 24/7 as this is a school where our entire life revolves around the web.
This was b/c they FORCED US to turn in our homework on this horrible written software called "ecollege" even on campus. We had to use this horribly buggy software. Back when firefox 3.0 came out. They were JUST THEN supporing IE6. it's byfar the worst thing i've ever had to deal with. So there was no excuse for it being down. AS all of our assignments, our discussions we had to do etc, were all online. So if it was down we lost precious time. Also on the mattter of it being a tech school which has netsec and software engineering being their two main "show everyone this" careers. Their software doesn't support linux. The school doesn't even support it. That ecollege company only supports windows. My first two horrible programming classes which i had to set through all used WINDOWS ONLY software. YET we're supposed to be a school of technology. Anyway now i'm rambling.
If a school has the internet, they should provide it for you so you can relax. If they filter out things like Online MMOs they're severaly hurting their potential students.
Should I contact my Congressman?
Congressmen have two ends,
The thinking end, and the sitting end.
Since his whole career depends upon his seat.
Why Bother , Friend.
If you're shopping for a decent ISP (I don't think good ones exist) and don't mind dealing with a cable company WOW has great customer service, especially compared to TW in my area, a great connection and I haven't heard anything about limiting my bandwidth yet. This is around Columbus OH, though.
Played in some form:
UO til tram, AC, EQ, AO, WW2O, PS, SB, CoH, AC2, Hor, LoTRO, DDO, AoC, Aion, CO, STO
Playing: WoW (for gf), WAR
Waiting For: SWTOR, FFXVI
Hoping For: DCUO, Secret World, Earthrise
-S- (UO Sonoma)
Next time, try one of these...
If only it were that simple.
I kissed my internet goodbye earlier, when it was leaked the UK govts draconian new piracy plans.
Infrastructure should be a government responsibility to build and then private companies can charge for the use. Why? To ensure universal access and private choice of provider. Either of the extremes are worse than the middle.
It saddens me how CHEAP most of you get your internet for. 7 EUROS a month? What?!
Here in Canada it's extreme.
Currently, our only good ISP here, Rogers, charges us 69.99/month CAD. 25mbps download, 1mbps upload, and 125gb monthly cap. It's pathetic. I hit my cap all too often.
However, yay for the internets.
EDIT: I forgot to add something like 17% tax on that, as well as "access fees" of $8 a month.
Well Im glad I have charter I pay for 10meg up/down So if they put a cap on me I will find another company.
To bad for the guys stuck using comcast and cant find another option. I am also glad I dont use at&t the worst company in the world. Bad enough I got a phone via them, I can imagine having to use their dsl that I hear is really slow.
My friend in Quebec uses Axion, and it's about $50 or $60/mo with a 6mbps download and only an 80GB limit per month! That's right folks, you need to stand up and speak out about how you don't want your service metered. Don't just complain about it to your friends. You need to find out the proper places to send letters to your ISP and write them. Get your friends to write them, change service, organize petitions, whatever it takes.
erictlewis, you may want to check with Charter because they were doing something with caps back in Feb of this year. Something like a 100GB cap for people at 15mbps and under, or 250GB cap for over 15mbps connections.
www.dslreports.com/faq/11027
Here in Montana the only provider we have charges $50+ for the slowest cable connection of 8mbs. The internet is turning into something as used, and taken for granted, as electricity. I hope someday when my kids are using a globalized tera-bs connection i can laugh about this.
Edit: The ISP is Bresnan
While you are correct in theory, reality is quite another matter. Take Comcast(please...) for example. In all too many places they are pretty much the ONLY option for high speed broadband(I don't consider 1.5 meg DSL high speed...). Not only that, but cable companies have been suing towns/cities that decide to install their own optical networks(even when the cable companies refused to wire the towns up...). They really don't care if people complain(have you ever had to deal with their so called tech support?...). From their perspective, if you want high speed broad band, they all too often are the only game in towm. So, where are the complainers going to go?
Australia (and I know South Africa also does it) has had download limits since the internet was born, and seriously, if you know your monthly usage then you just pay for what you need.
Personally I have 20 GB offpeak download, and 12 GB on peak download. That means that if I want to download anything then i set the scheduler to download it between the times of 2am and 12pm (offpeak), or I set it to download before i go to work so that it is finished before 12pm. it is not hard to work out.
I know many MMO players that have only a 1 or 2 GB limit on their connection, this works fine if you are not downloading full games or they dont suddenly do a 700MB patch. A second problem is some ISPs also count uploads in their limit and some people do get suckered by it which can use a lot of the limit if the MMO uses a torrent downloader like WoW.
So what happens when the amount runs out? Well, the speed drops to dialup speeds which, for comparison, is enough to play WoW without grouping or raiding. Remember that most MMO's are only transferring small amounts of data in order to reduce their own bandwidth and costs, so MMOs seriously do not take up much of your download limit.
The Pirate Finder General? I've heard about that. Its so mad that I'm hoping that even the normally passive English will do something about the politicians involved. They should be out of office, and who ever appointed the current nut case needs to lose office as well.
The words Universal Broadband make me shudder...
Honestly, I wish this article wouldn't have been written. One of the many things I love about gaming, is how politics stays out of it for the most part. Any time an article is written that discusses politics, it's there as a platform for the author to make a political wish-list of how they want to be served. So by definition the discussion starts off from a selfish and biased point of view.
I'll just say this:
Make no mistake about it. Government is a powerful and violent force. To ask the government for something is about as close as you can get to signing a deal with the devil.
Well stated. As much as I loath and despise Comcast, having government involved would be even worse.
Serbia has better internet than USA, lol.
The government does not have to step in and control internet, it just has to put up incentives for its development because apparently you guys are stagnating for years in that department while all over Europe things are improving. In particular Serbian internet has GREATLY improved under pressure from the European Union guys.
PS whatever happened to consumer protection laws?
My ISP was so bad about their downtimes I actually started keeping track in an excel spread sheet of times dates etc that the outages were occuring. It got so bad that they'd just start emailing people that they were doing downtime weekly to repair or replace systems, i marked all of this down as well and noted exact time of loss of service. After several weeks of this AND getting a bill from my company who would refuse to send out techs to fix the lines until several hours after an outage would start I took it up with them directly.
I took my spreadsheet electronically and print out to their customer service office. Requested to speak with the manager and/or the owner (its a pretty small isp). Sat down with the guy and went over numbers and their lack of a change management process and had them basically end up giving me about 3 months free service and helping them draft a change management process so that they would reduce the hours of downtime for actually fixing/replacing gear to late hours (off hours etc) and mimizing downtime to the average users. Also had my modem replaced about 3 times now due to lighting strikes due to the bad grounding they never installed. So all in all, everyone can make a little change but you have to stay on 'em and be on your game, dot all your i's and cross all your t's. Take it to the man, or else threaten to take it to the local newspaper and tv station to make sure they get bad press...that worked extremely well....
http://www.forceofarms.com/index.php
I work for my ISP ahhh the benefits
Seriously though on an average High Speed internet connection, and lets take my ISP for example, we have 1.6 million customers in Canada and the middle package has a bandwidth cap of 60GB. We see less than 0.5% go over that per month and if they do there are no extra charges with a 3 strike rule. A person playing mmorpg's possibly say 3 of them and lets say another 2 online games like FPS's wont even come close to 25GB per month. Problems can arise if you download the games or large patches though.
If only everyone used meshnet... *dreams*
Hm.. Might not help latency though.. Maybe it could or maybe it would make it worse.. not sure. Depends how close you are to servers of the games I guess.
tbh its not that much about the cap as about the feeling of having limitations, as with monitoring internet,phone calls etc....if there isn't a law, that doesnt mean they can't or they don't do it...whoever thinks that it's naive.
As for governments they don't really or should they control the internet...just take care and reinforce consumer protection and maybe lower the taxes for an ISP which installs xxx km of high speed lines for a certain period of time or something to that effect.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. A. Einstein
The reason we can't "make" some of these companies do what we want is because they already have the government backing them through the use of contracts. Comcast and Time-Warner exchanged some of the markets they provided service for a few years ago, so that they could each shore up in a given region and centralize better. Now, Time-Warner generally provides to the northeastern U.S. (as I understand it), and Comcast pretty much dominates in the southeastern (and/or southwestern) area.
Various factions have been trying for over a decade to profit from the popularity of the internet. The government attempted to impose taxes on the use of it a few years ago. More recently, the ISPs themselves have threatened not only to cap our total amount of usage of their wires to play our games and illegally download stuff, but to even restrict what sites and services we even have access to. So far, none of this has worked, but it is only a matter of time before someone cooks up a really good scheme, sells the right people on it, and we'll suddenly find ourselves with a fenced-in internet.
Hate politics all you want. I sure as hell do. But don't stick your head in the sand, expecting it all to work itself out. Government has a tendency to overprotect people through regulation. And I think the last four years of corporate shenanigans have pointed out that no private company will ever have our "best interests" at heart as opposed to lining their own pockets.
You don't have to be an activist to not want stupid things to happen to you.
Swedish internet is great and i hug it all the time, almost getting a bit nasty :P
-<[ Damn Dirty Apes ]>-
-<[ Merde Souill
If they ever start limiting all internet connections I think we should all do something violent, instead of just sitting around and accepting it.
I don't advocate violence though
Not right now atleast.