How about you? Are there licensed that you think have really hit the nail on the head in delivering on fan expectations? How do you think the licensed games in development will turn out?
I don't think a single one has. As far as the ones in development, I think they'll go the same way as the ones in the past. You may have a significant amount of people show up month one and see that number waste away. Part of this I believe is because the developer just assumes that the player is so intimate with the setting they don't pull out all the stops to recreate the setting. What some folks include in their meaning of "shallow" or "no depth". Licensed IP's only hope in my opinion is to not try to be a WoW subscription number getter. If they tried to recreate the IPs as Worlds instead of "games", and yes that does mean more sim and less game, then I think they'd attract a fanatical core crowd of people who want to "live" in that world for a long term as opposed to those who are "just playing games" and hopping from new game to new game. It's been my belief that those who care alot about the "lore" of an IP will stick around longer than those who are just looking for the next best version of a mechanic they like, such as crafting or PvP. Making an IP a world, in my view, will grant "slow but profitable" long term subscription build. I mean, look at how many people go to Star Trek and Star Wars conventions. As any of them if they wanted to live in that universe and I'd bet 9/10 would say yes. When that experienced is cheapend in development, they aren't going to hang around. And "just a game" players aren't either once the next new shiny comes along. Make the MMO a "world", more sim and less themepark, and you'll have more long term folks than you can shake a stick at, in my not so humble opinion.
Dead on. This is pretty much my view as well. You've reminded me of an essay I've been wanting to write for this sight regarding sims. Sim games are highly under-rated, and shouldn't be. Look at the success of console games like Guitar Hero or Rock Band. Yes, they are console, single-player/multi-player games, but they are also simulations. These simulations allow you to engage in the fantasy of being a rock star. Whenever I read people talk about sacrificing Lore for gameplay, I think about how they've created this false dichotomy. Guitar Hero knew the two could exist equally, and created gameplay to FIT the Lore. Of course the game also innovated UI and controller options, but the point remains. Can you imagine how much FAIL would have happened if the Devs of Guitar Hero would have listened to narrow minded 'gameplay trumps Lore" crowd? You'd have ended up with hand held thumb controllers, and if you're lucky, a semblance of the real songs.
Gamers are CLAMORING for new experiences and virtual interactions. I've said this before, but I can't wait for the MMO developer who revolutionizes the industry like Guitar Hero has revolutionized console game play.
And if that Developer is looking for a consultant, they can PM me here, lol. j/k
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
The Dungeons and Dragons IP should've been a slam dunk.
It is, quite literally, what every MMO in history is based on.
I was completely befuddled as to why they intentionally avoided using the most popular setting (Forgotten Realms by like 1,000 times) in favor of a new, untested setting.
There are a lot of reasons why some of the other IPs made mistakes that they might not be entirely responsible for. There's only so much wiggle room if the IP holder says you MUST do X,Y,Z and can't do anything between A and W. SWG is a classic case of what not to do, but DDO should be counted as part of that same group because they also made a titanic mistake in not understanding their audience and their game suffered for it.
To be frank, trying to develop a MMO from an IP is, as a few others have stated before me, a waste of time money and resources. I knew someone before who actually developed a MMO based on an IP and released it. It wasn't overly successful, nor was it a failure. From what he told me, he loved this particular IP when he was a kid and as an adult, he was suddenly in a position to actually bring to "Life" this IP albeit in computer form. His points were :
1. Additional financing that came from the various VCs' was secured simply because the IP already had an existing fan base which theoretically could be easily converted to subscribers.
2. The Licensor had issues with the elasticity of his IP, i.e. he wanted the MMO to reflect his IP in every way shape and form.
When the product was released, it actually did reflect 99% to what the Licensor demanded but the problem was that from a business point of view, the game now became too restrictive because now, if the Licensor did not produce expansions to his IP's storyline, the game itself couldn't do so either. Imagine an MMO that...ended.
This is the basic underlying fact behind all the IP based games out there and coming out soon. If the Licensor disagrees with the change to the game which he thinks has an impact on his IP, then it's not going to happen. At all 3 points between the subscriber, the developer and the Licensor, there will be conflict. Such conflict will inevitably result in issues which may potentially lead to the death of the game itself.
It is by far, easier to develop a MMO from zero IP. You then have the flexibility to do as you wish, to cater to the changes demanded by the subscribers, the market, your investors and even your son who just said "Dad, I think Orcs should have a bunny tail" etcetc.
“But it runs contradictory to the MMO business model, which depends on retaining customers and maximizing subscription life-cyles.”
That was the MMO buisness model, I am not sure it is any longer. There seems to be a ‘ensure we at least scape a profit out of box sales’ model at work. With so many new MMO’s doing poorley it has become more inportant to ensure a return on the money invested rather than trying to enure a good profit. That has led to MMO’s becoming increasingly good in the low level range reviewers see, but not in the mid and top end.
Lotro does show that sticking to the lore works, the balance between lore and gameplay has been sound so far. Other titles I expected to do well like AoC had a much harder time. IP's give no assured success, but are a mainstay of the MMO world.
An MMO with Hannah Montana on the box cover? Now that I'd like to see Star Wars Galaxies (even pre-NGE) had its shortcomings, mostly because Raph Koster's vision of SWG was more like an Uncle Owen MMO than any iconic Star Wars trappings. It is a great license, but the gameplay wasn't where it was supposed to be.
I didn't talk much about SWG because, frankly, what's left to say? I always told people that even Luke wanted to quit that game at the start of the first movie
Apparently what's left to say is "they got half a game perfect." I PREFERRED the gameplay of pre-NGE SWG. I wanted to do crafting. I LOVED the crafting. I'm still LOOKING for that level of detail and granularity in crafting. Being a starship engineer/droid engineer was enjoyable gameplay to me, and people obviously needed the goods, cause I was hard-pressed to keep stock. I also loved that my "class" was the gestalt of my skilltree choices, not some thing I chose at the beginning of the game that I couldn't escape. I changed my career ENTIRELY 3 times on the same character. And when I wanted to do some good old-fashioned killing, I grabbed a ship, hit space, and splashed some Imperials.
So, they got the life part of the MMO universe right. VERY right. But their combat mechanics and interface were not well done. Combat is the meat of the game to plenty of people, but not all of them. If they kept pre-NGE as is, and fixed combat (not CU! A whole new method for combat...maybe even an FPS-based combat system), that would've been a game I'd've never stop playing. Non-combat folks have their shops, crafting, and entertaining, and combat folks run around and let skill and blasters decide who stands and who dies.
Point is, an MMO is not a single-player game. You play a single-player game to go in, kill something, then you leave it and go do something else. An MMO should be a complete universe, and it should be possible to have a mini-version of a life in it. SWG was probably a couple years of pure development from being that, and that's business, but at least it made an excellent try.
The failure, in my view, with most IP incorporations is that the developers need a core audience, and instead of going after a core audience consisting of fans of the IP, they're going after MMO fans who happen to like a lot of things geeky. These MMO fans are invariably nomadic, and that doesn't spell longterm, gangbuster-type success of the IP MMO. Non-IP titles create a core audience from scratch that is loyal and who will stick with the game. You'd think that the IP MMO developers would see the benefit of having a pre-made core audience and design the MMO for them -- but for some reason they don't. That maybe the defining success of SW:TOR. They've identified their core audience and are zeroing in their development to satisfy that core.
Bingo. So many famous lines, recently including "we're not making a game for Trek fans, we're making a game for everyone" or whatever. Are you kidding? Default audience of tens, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, and you shun them to aim for the generic. Really? And they're not the only ones. When a game comes out of the box with free fans, and a LOT of them, shut up and make Fanservice: The Game. You won't be able to MINT money fast enough.
Yes all types of games can fail, but now make a complete list of MMOs that have done well and see how many of them are non game IPs turned MMO that have done well. The successes at this point boil down to SWG and LotRO that is pretty much it. But you can make a long list of original IP/game IP that became MMOs and are doing well.
Your definition of "doing well" appears to be maleable depending on which point of view you're trying to make. UO and AC, while influential in MMO history, were not even EQ-like successes even at their height, let alone something greater.
I agree that the use of an IP is a double-edged sword, but there have been plusses and minuses evident in games that have used other people's IP.
DAOC is the only one that did it the smart way - they used one of the most recognizable IPs in existence, and didn't have to pay a dime for it, nor did they have to ask for anyone's permission.
This leads me to a question: One of THE most hotly anticipated MMO titles right now is SW:TOR. We've even heard the "WoW-killer" term used from time to time. Does the use of Lucas' IP doom it from the start?
Doing well in my mind is a measure of profits, since it is a business that is about the only factor that matters.
People try to act like EQ was triple the player base of AC an UO but that is incorrect and is based purely on other incorrect people saying it. Yes EQ had more subs then AC but not by a huge margin in their early years. Also if a game can run for 10 years with a profit, well that is 10 years of profit which = making good amounts of money.
Where as a game like Matrix Online made very little if it was profitable at all.
Profit wise, Non game IPs made into MMOs is not the best track to take. But all the companies seem to be focused on this to get all the people who think that world would be neat to buy a copy and then pray that enough stick with it for the money to roll in. These big budget IPs turned MMOs cost 100 million or more to make.
So even if you get a million box sales and manage to get half of the box sale money as profit, that only brings you up to 25 million. There's another 75 million or more just to recoup the cost of making the game, so when you pull an AoC/War and lose 75% of those people in the first couple months with a continuing down trend of players, your game is not profitable.
Now if you have a game that cost much less then that to make (the early 3 MMOs were not close to the current budget sizes, even AC started as an indie team that got microsoft to back them to launch the game). Let's say it took 30 million to make any of the original 3, which might still be high. So if you got 250,000 sales and using the amazing get half of that money in the box sale as profit for the company example above, that's 6.25 mil in sales.
Now if you do some conservative math it's easy to assume these games have made at minimum 100 mil in sub fees over the decade. So without even counting in expansion box sales these games have made at least 76 million in profits as oppossed to the clear loss in money of AoC/War. Is it the WoW phenomenon profit level? No but they have been profitable.
To say they weren't succesful is just plain wrong, they also allowed the companies to make profits to make more games to make more profits and to make more MMOs. Turbine (AC) has 3 MMOs out right now that all appear to be profitable.
As for SW:ToR let's look at some history. The most previous anticipated games were AoC, War, Aion, people couldn't stop talking about these games and often used the terms "WoW Killer". AoC and War haven't made a profit yet and continue to do worse by the month. Aion is doing ok but it is far from being a WoW Killer (also wasn't a previous IP). So does SW:ToR being anticipated and being called a WoW Killer mean it is going to do amazing and be the biggest MMO ever? Hardly, it in fact doesn't mean a thing. No one can say for sure how it will play out, I for one thing it has a chance of doing fine but that it has more of a chance of pulling a War and having huge initial sales that drop off to middle ground sub numbers after 2 months.
I think that one of the reasons mmo's based in a large and fleshed out intellectual property don't work is that there is more to their worlds then just being "worlds".
Let's take Middle Earth and "The Lord of the Rings".
There have already been quite a few discussion on LOTRO and what ever happened to Middle Earth Online and whether or not Middle Earth Online would have been a better game.
As far as that question, that is all theory and speculation because, though a game can have a litany of features it just can't be decided if those features would work or whether or not the game developer can make them work in the right way.
Too many players get over excited about a game with declarations of "this game will rock" based on the advertised features but once the game actually comes out the complaints begin.
But getting back to my point.
An IP is not just about the world but is also about the characters and conflicts that inhabit that world. With the Lord of the Rings you have the fellowship as well as a large cast of characters that the fellowship experiences along the way. You also have the conflict of the ring as well as racial conflicts.
Now, Middle Earth Online was to take place at the start of the 4th age. In theory this was brilliant because there is not much written on the 4th age and it allows for the developers to actually have some freedom without having to deal with the problems of all the personalities/characters of the world.
But where it doesn't work is that part of the allure of Middle Earth is gandalf, Frodo, Aragorn, etc. A larger part of the allure is the conflict with Sauron, Saruman, etc. And then you have areas that are iconic and players want to experience such as the Shire or The Black Gates of Mordor.
All of this makes the world. Take all of this out and it's just a world with plants and floweres and one type of squirrel.
In addition, setting the game after all of the characters have done their great achievements and after the conflict has been resolved leaves the players with a "remember when the world was at war? Wasn't that Saruman a bastard". "Oh yeah, I heard about that...".
A game that doesn't include all of the characters and all of the conflict is like a set of a play.
You can look at the set, know that action took place there and even step on that stage and have your own adventure using the set. But it's still not the same as experiencing the actual play that took place on that set.
Players want to experience the story and characters of that IP. Otherwise it's just saying that the IP is little more than backstory or exposition or something that had gone on but is now really not an issue. I'm sure there are players who wouldn't mind playing in Middle Earth after all of the action but I would bet good money that most players are interested in more than the basic world of middle earth. The characters and stories of middle earth help define that world.
The huge problem, especially in "The Lord of the Rings" is that not only is there a story that progresses through the lands but that many of these lands are actually segregated.
You just don't have elves hanging out in the shire, you don't have elves and dwarves hanging out in Bree. Humans aren't lazily fishing in the waters of Lothlorien or Rivendell.
Which then brings the next issue which is to bend the IP so that a game can be made. This is one of the most delicate issues of any IP because how much is actually bending to make a game possible and bending to totally change the world in a way that doesn't make sense?
Too often have I read players saying "it's a game and no matter what, things have to be done to make it fun". But in many cases that sounds like some "party line".
Of course the game has to be made fun. But in no way shape or form does adding or subtracting key elements to/from an IP in order to make it into a game make it more or less fun.
Having a game set in the Italian Rennaissance has it's strengths and limitations. Adding things that would never have been in the Italian Rennaissance or that would seem out of place might make it fun but it ceases to be a game about the Italian Rennaissance.
So sure, the freedom to be a ninja in the Italian Rennaissance is fun but I don't reallly believe many ninjas were walking down the street. Though they probably existed about the same time period.
Also, adding fire arms might be fun as well but quite frankly it would probably have to be an Arquebus and even that is early for the start of the Italian Rennassance and the weapon not as accurate as one might like.
How much bending can and should be done in order to make it a game and make it "fun"? And at what point does that bending completely ruin the whole point for having a game set in an already established world?
I think players are so used to generic fantasy, generic sci-fi, that throwing in everything but the kitchen sink is "ok" because it's fun.
I've read players complaining that if a game doesn't have a lot of races and classes that it's a waste. Well, I'm sure that there are a lot of races that would be used in a game set in the Italian Rennaissance but none of them would have cat heads or lizard tails or pointy ears.
or hairy feet. hmmm.... well... I suppose that one is debatable.
So in using any sort of IP, the world and it's characteres really need to be respected. Or else there really isn't a reason to make that game short of milking the IP for cash from its fans.
I think that sometimes players are willing to accept generic game X with a coat of Intellectual Property Paint without realizing that any depth or actual meaning that that IP might contribute is being thrown out of the window.
Perhaps that's ok for some but I find it shallow.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
IP's are a total waste of time, money and resources. Only from the viewpoint of the gamer. I point to any MMO based on one as evidence....and yet we will get IP after IP and train wreck after train wreck.
That is because the business model works. I would not even be surprised if Warhammer has made a reasonable ROI.
These games continue to be made because they are making money. Only we the players care if they are lousy games.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
IP's are a total waste of time, money and resources. Only from the viewpoint of the gamer. I point to any MMO based on one as evidence....and yet we will get IP after IP and train wreck after train wreck.
That is because the business model works. I would not even be surprised if Warhammer has made a reasonable ROI.
These games continue to be made because they are making money. Only we the players care if they are lousy games.
Without IP, I would have never entered this genere of games. I had no intersted until my chosen world was brought to life in one. Since that time, I have seen the degeneration of the World Simulators into the quick and easy Theme Parks as dominate. This has been brought on with the chasing of the dragon thats WOW and cutting development costs.
I understand the process but releasing a quality product is the only way for a MMO to survive. Both Licensor and Gaming companies have got to learn that fact to create that oh so valuable cash cow. Otherwise there will be an un-ending cycle of AoC, SWG, WAR products. I blame the creators for MxO failure. If the franchise had been better (continued a quality story like the first film) then the game might have done better. At some point everyone significant abandoned MxO.
I define quality as a release that is fun, very bug free, completely realized sub-systems, delivered announced features and captures its players.
Most times when a MMO based on a IP is made, the devs always do the same error over and over again.
Instead of making a game for the fans of the IP, they make a game for those that ain't fans of the IP.
When a IP has a huge fanbase, who in their right mind would not make it so the fanbase would come to the party? Do they really think that a game that entices hundreds of thousands of fans won't attract the attention of the generic gamers?
Instead they alienate the fans and create a bad feeling towards the game from the fanbase.
And to cater to the generic gamers, they instead create a themepark on rails instead of creating the world that people fell in love with. Ask yourself, from a fan view... How many times would you play through the story of a book you've read 1-100 times. How much time would you spend doing that? And then, how much time would you spend in the world the book created instead?
I'm a LOTR fan. I played the game, saw the sights and "replayed" the story I've rad more times than I want to admit. The huge world of Tolkien however... I did not get to experience or make my way in. I no longer play that game, because I've allready read the story, and done as much as I could bother with being "the invisible helper". And the only feeeling I'm left with is: "I wish I could be in Tolkiens world, making my own way, making my own story, being part of the world and not the limited book".
So yes, it was nice to get to "see" the sights from the books, but the game wasnt created for me, a fan. It was created for the "tourist".
An MMO with Hannah Montana on the box cover? Now that I'd like to see Star Wars Galaxies (even pre-NGE) had its shortcomings, mostly because Raph Koster's vision of SWG was more like an Uncle Owen MMO than any iconic Star Wars trappings. It is a great license, but the gameplay wasn't where it was supposed to be.
I didn't talk much about SWG because, frankly, what's left to say? I always told people that even Luke wanted to quit that game at the start of the first movie
Apparently what's left to say is "they got half a game perfect." I PREFERRED the gameplay of pre-NGE SWG. I wanted to do crafting. I LOVED the crafting. I'm still LOOKING for that level of detail and granularity in crafting. Being a starship engineer/droid engineer was enjoyable gameplay to me, and people obviously needed the goods, cause I was hard-pressed to keep stock. I also loved that my "class" was the gestalt of my skilltree choices, not some thing I chose at the beginning of the game that I couldn't escape. I changed my career ENTIRELY 3 times on the same character. And when I wanted to do some good old-fashioned killing, I grabbed a ship, hit space, and splashed some Imperials.
So, they got the life part of the MMO universe right. VERY right. But their combat mechanics and interface were not well done. Combat is the meat of the game to plenty of people, but not all of them. If they kept pre-NGE as is, and fixed combat (not CU! A whole new method for combat...maybe even an FPS-based combat system), that would've been a game I'd've never stop playing. Non-combat folks have their shops, crafting, and entertaining, and combat folks run around and let skill and blasters decide who stands and who dies.
Point is, an MMO is not a single-player game. You play a single-player game to go in, kill something, then you leave it and go do something else. An MMO should be a complete universe, and it should be possible to have a mini-version of a life in it. SWG was probably a couple years of pure development from being that, and that's business, but at least it made an excellent try.
No kidding. These guys who like to flippantly sling around the "Uncle Owen" snide remarks just glaringly show they have no perspective on success. Those "Uncle Owen" parts of the game were by far the best parts of the game. Koster's vision was dead on. The game wasn't meant to be a hold my hand, follow the yellow brick quest system game like other themeparks. It was meant to be a live in the SW universe game that had a poorly implemented combat system.
But then again, that's a major problem with this industry today. Too many Lukes and not enough Uncle Owens on the inside and the whiny, loud and impatient Lukes on the outside screaming for "moar" of the same (and then condeming it) while the Uncle Owens for the most part either stick to the first generation of games (which is why UO and AC are still kicking) or quit altogether.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Your definition of "doing well" appears to be maleable depending on which point of view you're trying to make. UO and AC, while influential in MMO history, were not even EQ-like successes even at their height, let alone something greater. I agree that the use of an IP is a double-edged sword, but there have been plusses and minuses evident in games that have used other people's IP. DAOC is the only one that did it the smart way - they used one of the most recognizable IPs in existence, and didn't have to pay a dime for it, nor did they have to ask for anyone's permission. This leads me to a question: One of THE most hotly anticipated MMO titles right now is SW:TOR. We've even heard the "WoW-killer" term used from time to time. Does the use of Lucas' IP doom it from the start?
This demographic is the younger audiance who might like the Clone Wars series and who might not know a lot of Star Wars lore. They may even be semi-confused on the time peroid, "Wheres Darth Vader?". Thats who Lucas Arts wants to give a virgin experiance to this new MMO.
Will it fail? "Hard to see the future...always in motion." A lot of "if's" but quality, marketing and support to this product and it can go the distance.
U talk about Lore when if u keep up with anything then that out of date Fake SW want a be. Lucas has added KotOR to the time line and of corse if u read any of the book's from pre OR and up to of corse the Clone Wars. U might know Some Lore and this game isn't for the Movie ppl IF for the Top selling RPG KotOR. As for SWG I still have my account mainly for the free cards and 1st weekend grind for cards because there is no LORE in that game lucas should have shut it down long ago , but instead he just said it is a joke no one will take it as lore. Where what u see in ToR is living Lore!
A scenario that I think would make the most sense is one where the author/publisher of the source material is also the owner of the game development. This would be the ideal situation for the development of a game based on outside source material. After all, who would be more of an authority on how a game based on outside material should be than the creator themselves. This is actually a marketing plan I have in the works for one of my future intellectual properties(assuming I ever get the book/film written). I am a bit of a creative individual with a good business acumen and as a performer do like to create my own work, so I felt that turning my pet project into both single player rpg and an mmorpg would be the natural evolution. It is a shame more production companies and publishers don't take this hands on approach I think.
Your definition of "doing well" appears to be maleable depending on which point of view you're trying to make. UO and AC, while influential in MMO history, were not even EQ-like successes even at their height, let alone something greater. I agree that the use of an IP is a double-edged sword, but there have been plusses and minuses evident in games that have used other people's IP. DAOC is the only one that did it the smart way - they used one of the most recognizable IPs in existence, and didn't have to pay a dime for it, nor did they have to ask for anyone's permission. This leads me to a question: One of THE most hotly anticipated MMO titles right now is SW:TOR. We've even heard the "WoW-killer" term used from time to time. Does the use of Lucas' IP doom it from the start?
This demographic is the younger audiance who might like the Clone Wars series and who might not know a lot of Star Wars lore. They may even be semi-confused on the time peroid, "Wheres Darth Vader?". Thats who Lucas Arts wants to give a virgin experiance to this new MMO.
Will it fail? "Hard to see the future...always in motion." A lot of "if's" but quality, marketing and support to this product and it can go the distance.
U talk about Lore when if u keep up with anything then that out of date Fake SW want a be. Lucas has added KotOR to the time line and of corse if u read any of the book's from pre OR and up to of corse the Clone Wars. U might know Some Lore and this game isn't for the Movie ppl IF for the Top selling RPG KotOR. As for SWG I still have my account mainly for the free cards and 1st weekend grind for cards because there is no LORE in that game lucas should have shut it down long ago , but instead he just said it is a joke no one will take it as lore. Where what u see in ToR is living Lore!
...and when TOR (through a patch or expansion) "goes off the reseveration" will Lucas accept it then as canon to his universe? Don't fool your self to think it will be considered a holy. Its a game with all the flaws that follow games related to IP's.
As to TOR's un-doubtable and pending success, go up to the common person on the street and ask, "What is World of Warcraft?" Some will answer its a MMORPG. Ask another common person in the street "What is Star Wars?" You will get the common answer its a hit sci-fi movie. (possibly even go futher with the story and settings.) Ask that same common person "What is Star Wars: The Old Republic?" Whats the answer your going to get? Not everyone is savvy to the details of this franchise. They, however, know Warcraft is a popular game. If TOR "isn't for the Movie ppl" how will it appeal to the broadest audiance? The guys on TOR are selling it on its iconic likeness to those movies. Are they doing a bait and switch to Joe Public? If these guys are only pitching this game to the KOTOR players, then it will not do the business that can challenge WOW or dominate the market. Again, quality, marketing and support to this product and it can go the distance.
I am not holding up SWG as any example of great merit. I played the game from launch and know its history. You can down the game all you like as its earned both scorn and praise. I really don't care on that point and many here are tired of that continuing dialog.
An MMO with Hannah Montana on the box cover? Now that I'd like to see Star Wars Galaxies (even pre-NGE) had its shortcomings, mostly because Raph Koster's vision of SWG was more like an Uncle Owen MMO than any iconic Star Wars trappings. It is a great license, but the gameplay wasn't where it was supposed to be.
I didn't talk much about SWG because, frankly, what's left to say? I always told people that even Luke wanted to quit that game at the start of the first movie
More nonsense as usual. The original SWG very much had the Star Wars feel and was the premier licensed MMO at the time. You could be anything you wanted to be and if you did not like what you picked you could change it. Sure the game had issues, but nothing earth shattering. The game play was great in the original game. I felt like I was playing in the Star Wars Universe. It probably had the best client base I have seen in a MMO. You actually had to work to be a Jedi, as it should be. The current game is just another EQ clone in sheeps clothing.
Warhammer was most definitely a license and the game sucked because of it.
The problem with Warhammer and DDO were they were designed as board games and the developers were almost mandated to carry over rulesets that worked well as a board game by failed miserably as MMO rulesets.
An MMO with Hannah Montana on the box cover? Now that I'd like to see Star Wars Galaxies (even pre-NGE) had its shortcomings, mostly because Raph Koster's vision of SWG was more like an Uncle Owen MMO than any iconic Star Wars trappings. It is a great license, but the gameplay wasn't where it was supposed to be.
I didn't talk much about SWG because, frankly, what's left to say? I always told people that even Luke wanted to quit that game at the start of the first movie
More nonsense as usual. The original SWG very much had the Star Wars feel and was the premier licensed MMO at the time. You could be anything you wanted to be and if you did not like what you picked you could change it. Sure the game had issues, but nothing earth shattering. The game play was great in the original game. I felt like I was playing in the Star Wars Universe. It probably had the best client base I have seen in a MMO. You actually had to work to be a Jedi, as it should be. The current game is just another EQ clone in sheeps clothing.
The original swg was great, sure it had problems what mmo does not. The problem was they wanted to take the game to a console version so they nerfed it down into easy to do cookie cutter stuff. They took jedi by the way took me 2 years to get to that point of a very hard grind, and handed evybody a light saber, here kiddies have fun. So we took a great game and made it slop. I log in from time to time when i get free 15 days thats about it. The console thing never surfaced after about 80% of the player base said im done with this.
I dont see it being very hard to figure out. The reality is w.o.w. exists. If your game doesnt have enough to offer the wow'ers out there they will almost definately return to wow even if they love the IP they're quitting. If anyone is like me they hate themselves for playing wow but there just isnt anything better. I've been pulled away from wow for many other titles but i always end up coming back cause dev's arent making games better than wow. Why would you expect someone to play an inferiour game just because it says Dungeons &Dragons on the box?
First and foremost you NEED a big interesting world. Everything instanced and world maps that dont make sense drive me insane. If i want to be confined to a tiny little map or whatever i'll buy a console game of the IP i want to get into. When i log into an MMO i want a world i can travel around.
2nd) You have to at least know what the competiton is doing and not make the same mistakes. I quit War when after putting a bunch of time into gaining the influence needed for a great epic ax the ITEM MODEL was identical to the level 1 starter ax i had. You have to know that one of the draws of wow is the item/char modeling so if you dont step up your game people will like looking at the wow gear more. I dont think ive found ANY game at release that has some sort of gear preview option like wow has.
3rd) i think the last thing that is absolutely important is common sense in the game model your developing. MMO"s are about freedom and exploring. Dont make me choose crafting or exploring. Just let me go check that cave out and if there's baddies in it let me beat on them, and if there's gold in there and i find it let me dig it out.
In the end i think it's crazy to think your IP is gonna make people stay in a game that just isnt fun/interesting/complex/attractive. The IP will generate interest in buying the game but the game has to be good to keep people paying. And i really, REALLY want to be playing something else but my money is important to me. Im not giving it to you if you dont make something good. It doesnt even have to be better than wow just dont make it worse.
If you dont know your history your doomed to repeat it, right?
I agree with you , completely . All of you made corect , fact - based , opinions . In my opnion , the IP - based MMOs are condemned from the start , because :
1 . The continous limitations problems , created by the IP licensors , the fans which will always will know more than the developers about the game , etc . , like : legal problems , etc .
Even if some non - based IP MMOs have failed , we musn't forget that the :
1 . The greatest and most constant succesess in the videogame industry were non - IP based , like : Halo serie , C&C serie , Starcraft , WoW , EVE , Dragon Age : Origins , etc. and other franchizes which i'll not remember here , because are many .
2 . The greatest and most constant failures in the videogame industry were IP based , like : all superheroes games , all Star Trek & Star wars games ( exception KOTOR ), etc .
In the short - run , the IP - based MMOs may succeed , but , in the long-run , I don't think so.
In my opinion , they should concentrate all their time , money and energy , to create original , non IP based MMOGs - only .
Comments
Dead on. This is pretty much my view as well. You've reminded me of an essay I've been wanting to write for this sight regarding sims. Sim games are highly under-rated, and shouldn't be. Look at the success of console games like Guitar Hero or Rock Band. Yes, they are console, single-player/multi-player games, but they are also simulations. These simulations allow you to engage in the fantasy of being a rock star. Whenever I read people talk about sacrificing Lore for gameplay, I think about how they've created this false dichotomy. Guitar Hero knew the two could exist equally, and created gameplay to FIT the Lore. Of course the game also innovated UI and controller options, but the point remains. Can you imagine how much FAIL would have happened if the Devs of Guitar Hero would have listened to narrow minded 'gameplay trumps Lore" crowd? You'd have ended up with hand held thumb controllers, and if you're lucky, a semblance of the real songs.
Gamers are CLAMORING for new experiences and virtual interactions. I've said this before, but I can't wait for the MMO developer who revolutionizes the industry like Guitar Hero has revolutionized console game play.
And if that Developer is looking for a consultant, they can PM me here, lol. j/k
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
The Dungeons and Dragons IP should've been a slam dunk.
It is, quite literally, what every MMO in history is based on.
I was completely befuddled as to why they intentionally avoided using the most popular setting (Forgotten Realms by like 1,000 times) in favor of a new, untested setting.
There are a lot of reasons why some of the other IPs made mistakes that they might not be entirely responsible for. There's only so much wiggle room if the IP holder says you MUST do X,Y,Z and can't do anything between A and W. SWG is a classic case of what not to do, but DDO should be counted as part of that same group because they also made a titanic mistake in not understanding their audience and their game suffered for it.
To be frank, trying to develop a MMO from an IP is, as a few others have stated before me, a waste of time money and resources. I knew someone before who actually developed a MMO based on an IP and released it. It wasn't overly successful, nor was it a failure. From what he told me, he loved this particular IP when he was a kid and as an adult, he was suddenly in a position to actually bring to "Life" this IP albeit in computer form. His points were :
1. Additional financing that came from the various VCs' was secured simply because the IP already had an existing fan base which theoretically could be easily converted to subscribers.
2. The Licensor had issues with the elasticity of his IP, i.e. he wanted the MMO to reflect his IP in every way shape and form.
When the product was released, it actually did reflect 99% to what the Licensor demanded but the problem was that from a business point of view, the game now became too restrictive because now, if the Licensor did not produce expansions to his IP's storyline, the game itself couldn't do so either. Imagine an MMO that...ended.
This is the basic underlying fact behind all the IP based games out there and coming out soon. If the Licensor disagrees with the change to the game which he thinks has an impact on his IP, then it's not going to happen. At all 3 points between the subscriber, the developer and the Licensor, there will be conflict. Such conflict will inevitably result in issues which may potentially lead to the death of the game itself.
It is by far, easier to develop a MMO from zero IP. You then have the flexibility to do as you wish, to cater to the changes demanded by the subscribers, the market, your investors and even your son who just said "Dad, I think Orcs should have a bunny tail" etcetc.
“But it runs contradictory to the MMO business model, which depends on retaining customers and maximizing subscription life-cyles.”
That was the MMO buisness model, I am not sure it is any longer. There seems to be a ‘ensure we at least scape a profit out of box sales’ model at work. With so many new MMO’s doing poorley it has become more inportant to ensure a return on the money invested rather than trying to enure a good profit. That has led to MMO’s becoming increasingly good in the low level range reviewers see, but not in the mid and top end.
Lotro does show that sticking to the lore works, the balance between lore and gameplay has been sound so far. Other titles I expected to do well like AoC had a much harder time. IP's give no assured success, but are a mainstay of the MMO world.
I didn't talk much about SWG because, frankly, what's left to say? I always told people that even Luke wanted to quit that game at the start of the first movie
Apparently what's left to say is "they got half a game perfect." I PREFERRED the gameplay of pre-NGE SWG. I wanted to do crafting. I LOVED the crafting. I'm still LOOKING for that level of detail and granularity in crafting. Being a starship engineer/droid engineer was enjoyable gameplay to me, and people obviously needed the goods, cause I was hard-pressed to keep stock. I also loved that my "class" was the gestalt of my skilltree choices, not some thing I chose at the beginning of the game that I couldn't escape. I changed my career ENTIRELY 3 times on the same character. And when I wanted to do some good old-fashioned killing, I grabbed a ship, hit space, and splashed some Imperials.
So, they got the life part of the MMO universe right. VERY right. But their combat mechanics and interface were not well done. Combat is the meat of the game to plenty of people, but not all of them. If they kept pre-NGE as is, and fixed combat (not CU! A whole new method for combat...maybe even an FPS-based combat system), that would've been a game I'd've never stop playing. Non-combat folks have their shops, crafting, and entertaining, and combat folks run around and let skill and blasters decide who stands and who dies.
Point is, an MMO is not a single-player game. You play a single-player game to go in, kill something, then you leave it and go do something else. An MMO should be a complete universe, and it should be possible to have a mini-version of a life in it. SWG was probably a couple years of pure development from being that, and that's business, but at least it made an excellent try.
Bingo. So many famous lines, recently including "we're not making a game for Trek fans, we're making a game for everyone" or whatever. Are you kidding? Default audience of tens, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, and you shun them to aim for the generic. Really? And they're not the only ones. When a game comes out of the box with free fans, and a LOT of them, shut up and make Fanservice: The Game. You won't be able to MINT money fast enough.
Yes all types of games can fail, but now make a complete list of MMOs that have done well and see how many of them are non game IPs turned MMO that have done well. The successes at this point boil down to SWG and LotRO that is pretty much it. But you can make a long list of original IP/game IP that became MMOs and are doing well.
Your definition of "doing well" appears to be maleable depending on which point of view you're trying to make. UO and AC, while influential in MMO history, were not even EQ-like successes even at their height, let alone something greater.
I agree that the use of an IP is a double-edged sword, but there have been plusses and minuses evident in games that have used other people's IP.
DAOC is the only one that did it the smart way - they used one of the most recognizable IPs in existence, and didn't have to pay a dime for it, nor did they have to ask for anyone's permission.
This leads me to a question: One of THE most hotly anticipated MMO titles right now is SW:TOR. We've even heard the "WoW-killer" term used from time to time. Does the use of Lucas' IP doom it from the start?
Doing well in my mind is a measure of profits, since it is a business that is about the only factor that matters.
People try to act like EQ was triple the player base of AC an UO but that is incorrect and is based purely on other incorrect people saying it. Yes EQ had more subs then AC but not by a huge margin in their early years. Also if a game can run for 10 years with a profit, well that is 10 years of profit which = making good amounts of money.
Where as a game like Matrix Online made very little if it was profitable at all.
Profit wise, Non game IPs made into MMOs is not the best track to take. But all the companies seem to be focused on this to get all the people who think that world would be neat to buy a copy and then pray that enough stick with it for the money to roll in. These big budget IPs turned MMOs cost 100 million or more to make.
So even if you get a million box sales and manage to get half of the box sale money as profit, that only brings you up to 25 million. There's another 75 million or more just to recoup the cost of making the game, so when you pull an AoC/War and lose 75% of those people in the first couple months with a continuing down trend of players, your game is not profitable.
Now if you have a game that cost much less then that to make (the early 3 MMOs were not close to the current budget sizes, even AC started as an indie team that got microsoft to back them to launch the game). Let's say it took 30 million to make any of the original 3, which might still be high. So if you got 250,000 sales and using the amazing get half of that money in the box sale as profit for the company example above, that's 6.25 mil in sales.
Now if you do some conservative math it's easy to assume these games have made at minimum 100 mil in sub fees over the decade. So without even counting in expansion box sales these games have made at least 76 million in profits as oppossed to the clear loss in money of AoC/War. Is it the WoW phenomenon profit level? No but they have been profitable.
To say they weren't succesful is just plain wrong, they also allowed the companies to make profits to make more games to make more profits and to make more MMOs. Turbine (AC) has 3 MMOs out right now that all appear to be profitable.
As for SW:ToR let's look at some history. The most previous anticipated games were AoC, War, Aion, people couldn't stop talking about these games and often used the terms "WoW Killer". AoC and War haven't made a profit yet and continue to do worse by the month. Aion is doing ok but it is far from being a WoW Killer (also wasn't a previous IP). So does SW:ToR being anticipated and being called a WoW Killer mean it is going to do amazing and be the biggest MMO ever? Hardly, it in fact doesn't mean a thing. No one can say for sure how it will play out, I for one thing it has a chance of doing fine but that it has more of a chance of pulling a War and having huge initial sales that drop off to middle ground sub numbers after 2 months.
I think that one of the reasons mmo's based in a large and fleshed out intellectual property don't work is that there is more to their worlds then just being "worlds".
Let's take Middle Earth and "The Lord of the Rings".
There have already been quite a few discussion on LOTRO and what ever happened to Middle Earth Online and whether or not Middle Earth Online would have been a better game.
As far as that question, that is all theory and speculation because, though a game can have a litany of features it just can't be decided if those features would work or whether or not the game developer can make them work in the right way.
Too many players get over excited about a game with declarations of "this game will rock" based on the advertised features but once the game actually comes out the complaints begin.
But getting back to my point.
An IP is not just about the world but is also about the characters and conflicts that inhabit that world. With the Lord of the Rings you have the fellowship as well as a large cast of characters that the fellowship experiences along the way. You also have the conflict of the ring as well as racial conflicts.
Now, Middle Earth Online was to take place at the start of the 4th age. In theory this was brilliant because there is not much written on the 4th age and it allows for the developers to actually have some freedom without having to deal with the problems of all the personalities/characters of the world.
But where it doesn't work is that part of the allure of Middle Earth is gandalf, Frodo, Aragorn, etc. A larger part of the allure is the conflict with Sauron, Saruman, etc. And then you have areas that are iconic and players want to experience such as the Shire or The Black Gates of Mordor.
All of this makes the world. Take all of this out and it's just a world with plants and floweres and one type of squirrel.
In addition, setting the game after all of the characters have done their great achievements and after the conflict has been resolved leaves the players with a "remember when the world was at war? Wasn't that Saruman a bastard". "Oh yeah, I heard about that...".
A game that doesn't include all of the characters and all of the conflict is like a set of a play.
You can look at the set, know that action took place there and even step on that stage and have your own adventure using the set. But it's still not the same as experiencing the actual play that took place on that set.
Players want to experience the story and characters of that IP. Otherwise it's just saying that the IP is little more than backstory or exposition or something that had gone on but is now really not an issue. I'm sure there are players who wouldn't mind playing in Middle Earth after all of the action but I would bet good money that most players are interested in more than the basic world of middle earth. The characters and stories of middle earth help define that world.
The huge problem, especially in "The Lord of the Rings" is that not only is there a story that progresses through the lands but that many of these lands are actually segregated.
You just don't have elves hanging out in the shire, you don't have elves and dwarves hanging out in Bree. Humans aren't lazily fishing in the waters of Lothlorien or Rivendell.
Which then brings the next issue which is to bend the IP so that a game can be made. This is one of the most delicate issues of any IP because how much is actually bending to make a game possible and bending to totally change the world in a way that doesn't make sense?
Too often have I read players saying "it's a game and no matter what, things have to be done to make it fun". But in many cases that sounds like some "party line".
Of course the game has to be made fun. But in no way shape or form does adding or subtracting key elements to/from an IP in order to make it into a game make it more or less fun.
Having a game set in the Italian Rennaissance has it's strengths and limitations. Adding things that would never have been in the Italian Rennaissance or that would seem out of place might make it fun but it ceases to be a game about the Italian Rennaissance.
So sure, the freedom to be a ninja in the Italian Rennaissance is fun but I don't reallly believe many ninjas were walking down the street. Though they probably existed about the same time period.
Also, adding fire arms might be fun as well but quite frankly it would probably have to be an Arquebus and even that is early for the start of the Italian Rennassance and the weapon not as accurate as one might like.
How much bending can and should be done in order to make it a game and make it "fun"? And at what point does that bending completely ruin the whole point for having a game set in an already established world?
I think players are so used to generic fantasy, generic sci-fi, that throwing in everything but the kitchen sink is "ok" because it's fun.
I've read players complaining that if a game doesn't have a lot of races and classes that it's a waste. Well, I'm sure that there are a lot of races that would be used in a game set in the Italian Rennaissance but none of them would have cat heads or lizard tails or pointy ears.
or hairy feet. hmmm.... well... I suppose that one is debatable.
So in using any sort of IP, the world and it's characteres really need to be respected. Or else there really isn't a reason to make that game short of milking the IP for cash from its fans.
I think that sometimes players are willing to accept generic game X with a coat of Intellectual Property Paint without realizing that any depth or actual meaning that that IP might contribute is being thrown out of the window.
Perhaps that's ok for some but I find it shallow.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's the way it should be, but MMO devs don't appear to hold much sacred. A big IP is just box sale bait.
Just watch Star Trek Online and weep.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
That is because the business model works. I would not even be surprised if Warhammer has made a reasonable ROI.
These games continue to be made because they are making money. Only we the players care if they are lousy games.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
That is because the business model works. I would not even be surprised if Warhammer has made a reasonable ROI.
These games continue to be made because they are making money. Only we the players care if they are lousy games.
Without IP, I would have never entered this genere of games. I had no intersted until my chosen world was brought to life in one. Since that time, I have seen the degeneration of the World Simulators into the quick and easy Theme Parks as dominate. This has been brought on with the chasing of the dragon thats WOW and cutting development costs.
I understand the process but releasing a quality product is the only way for a MMO to survive. Both Licensor and Gaming companies have got to learn that fact to create that oh so valuable cash cow. Otherwise there will be an un-ending cycle of AoC, SWG, WAR products. I blame the creators for MxO failure. If the franchise had been better (continued a quality story like the first film) then the game might have done better. At some point everyone significant abandoned MxO.
I define quality as a release that is fun, very bug free, completely realized sub-systems, delivered announced features and captures its players.
Most times when a MMO based on a IP is made, the devs always do the same error over and over again.
Instead of making a game for the fans of the IP, they make a game for those that ain't fans of the IP.
When a IP has a huge fanbase, who in their right mind would not make it so the fanbase would come to the party? Do they really think that a game that entices hundreds of thousands of fans won't attract the attention of the generic gamers?
Instead they alienate the fans and create a bad feeling towards the game from the fanbase.
And to cater to the generic gamers, they instead create a themepark on rails instead of creating the world that people fell in love with. Ask yourself, from a fan view... How many times would you play through the story of a book you've read 1-100 times. How much time would you spend doing that? And then, how much time would you spend in the world the book created instead?
I'm a LOTR fan. I played the game, saw the sights and "replayed" the story I've rad more times than I want to admit. The huge world of Tolkien however... I did not get to experience or make my way in. I no longer play that game, because I've allready read the story, and done as much as I could bother with being "the invisible helper". And the only feeeling I'm left with is: "I wish I could be in Tolkiens world, making my own way, making my own story, being part of the world and not the limited book".
So yes, it was nice to get to "see" the sights from the books, but the game wasnt created for me, a fan. It was created for the "tourist".
I didn't talk much about SWG because, frankly, what's left to say? I always told people that even Luke wanted to quit that game at the start of the first movie
Apparently what's left to say is "they got half a game perfect." I PREFERRED the gameplay of pre-NGE SWG. I wanted to do crafting. I LOVED the crafting. I'm still LOOKING for that level of detail and granularity in crafting. Being a starship engineer/droid engineer was enjoyable gameplay to me, and people obviously needed the goods, cause I was hard-pressed to keep stock. I also loved that my "class" was the gestalt of my skilltree choices, not some thing I chose at the beginning of the game that I couldn't escape. I changed my career ENTIRELY 3 times on the same character. And when I wanted to do some good old-fashioned killing, I grabbed a ship, hit space, and splashed some Imperials.
So, they got the life part of the MMO universe right. VERY right. But their combat mechanics and interface were not well done. Combat is the meat of the game to plenty of people, but not all of them. If they kept pre-NGE as is, and fixed combat (not CU! A whole new method for combat...maybe even an FPS-based combat system), that would've been a game I'd've never stop playing. Non-combat folks have their shops, crafting, and entertaining, and combat folks run around and let skill and blasters decide who stands and who dies.
Point is, an MMO is not a single-player game. You play a single-player game to go in, kill something, then you leave it and go do something else. An MMO should be a complete universe, and it should be possible to have a mini-version of a life in it. SWG was probably a couple years of pure development from being that, and that's business, but at least it made an excellent try.
No kidding. These guys who like to flippantly sling around the "Uncle Owen" snide remarks just glaringly show they have no perspective on success. Those "Uncle Owen" parts of the game were by far the best parts of the game. Koster's vision was dead on. The game wasn't meant to be a hold my hand, follow the yellow brick quest system game like other themeparks. It was meant to be a live in the SW universe game that had a poorly implemented combat system.
But then again, that's a major problem with this industry today. Too many Lukes and not enough Uncle Owens on the inside and the whiny, loud and impatient Lukes on the outside screaming for "moar" of the same (and then condeming it) while the Uncle Owens for the most part either stick to the first generation of games (which is why UO and AC are still kicking) or quit altogether.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
This demographic is the younger audiance who might like the Clone Wars series and who might not know a lot of Star Wars lore. They may even be semi-confused on the time peroid, "Wheres Darth Vader?". Thats who Lucas Arts wants to give a virgin experiance to this new MMO.
Will it fail? "Hard to see the future...always in motion." A lot of "if's" but quality, marketing and support to this product and it can go the distance.
U talk about Lore when if u keep up with anything then that out of date Fake SW want a be. Lucas has added KotOR to the time line and of corse if u read any of the book's from pre OR and up to of corse the Clone Wars. U might know Some Lore and this game isn't for the Movie ppl IF for the Top selling RPG KotOR. As for SWG I still have my account mainly for the free cards and 1st weekend grind for cards because there is no LORE in that game lucas should have shut it down long ago , but instead he just said it is a joke no one will take it as lore. Where what u see in ToR is living Lore!
A scenario that I think would make the most sense is one where the author/publisher of the source material is also the owner of the game development. This would be the ideal situation for the development of a game based on outside source material. After all, who would be more of an authority on how a game based on outside material should be than the creator themselves. This is actually a marketing plan I have in the works for one of my future intellectual properties(assuming I ever get the book/film written). I am a bit of a creative individual with a good business acumen and as a performer do like to create my own work, so I felt that turning my pet project into both single player rpg and an mmorpg would be the natural evolution. It is a shame more production companies and publishers don't take this hands on approach I think.
This demographic is the younger audiance who might like the Clone Wars series and who might not know a lot of Star Wars lore. They may even be semi-confused on the time peroid, "Wheres Darth Vader?". Thats who Lucas Arts wants to give a virgin experiance to this new MMO.
Will it fail? "Hard to see the future...always in motion." A lot of "if's" but quality, marketing and support to this product and it can go the distance.
U talk about Lore when if u keep up with anything then that out of date Fake SW want a be. Lucas has added KotOR to the time line and of corse if u read any of the book's from pre OR and up to of corse the Clone Wars. U might know Some Lore and this game isn't for the Movie ppl IF for the Top selling RPG KotOR. As for SWG I still have my account mainly for the free cards and 1st weekend grind for cards because there is no LORE in that game lucas should have shut it down long ago , but instead he just said it is a joke no one will take it as lore. Where what u see in ToR is living Lore!
...and when TOR (through a patch or expansion) "goes off the reseveration" will Lucas accept it then as canon to his universe? Don't fool your self to think it will be considered a holy. Its a game with all the flaws that follow games related to IP's.
As to TOR's un-doubtable and pending success, go up to the common person on the street and ask, "What is World of Warcraft?" Some will answer its a MMORPG. Ask another common person in the street "What is Star Wars?" You will get the common answer its a hit sci-fi movie. (possibly even go futher with the story and settings.) Ask that same common person "What is Star Wars: The Old Republic?" Whats the answer your going to get? Not everyone is savvy to the details of this franchise. They, however, know Warcraft is a popular game. If TOR "isn't for the Movie ppl" how will it appeal to the broadest audiance? The guys on TOR are selling it on its iconic likeness to those movies. Are they doing a bait and switch to Joe Public? If these guys are only pitching this game to the KOTOR players, then it will not do the business that can challenge WOW or dominate the market. Again, quality, marketing and support to this product and it can go the distance.
I am not holding up SWG as any example of great merit. I played the game from launch and know its history. You can down the game all you like as its earned both scorn and praise. I really don't care on that point and many here are tired of that continuing dialog.
Warhammer was most definitely a license and the game sucked because of it.
I didn't talk much about SWG because, frankly, what's left to say? I always told people that even Luke wanted to quit that game at the start of the first movie
More nonsense as usual. The original SWG very much had the Star Wars feel and was the premier licensed MMO at the time. You could be anything you wanted to be and if you did not like what you picked you could change it. Sure the game had issues, but nothing earth shattering. The game play was great in the original game. I felt like I was playing in the Star Wars Universe. It probably had the best client base I have seen in a MMO. You actually had to work to be a Jedi, as it should be. The current game is just another EQ clone in sheeps clothing.
The problem with Warhammer and DDO were they were designed as board games and the developers were almost mandated to carry over rulesets that worked well as a board game by failed miserably as MMO rulesets.
I didn't talk much about SWG because, frankly, what's left to say? I always told people that even Luke wanted to quit that game at the start of the first movie
More nonsense as usual. The original SWG very much had the Star Wars feel and was the premier licensed MMO at the time. You could be anything you wanted to be and if you did not like what you picked you could change it. Sure the game had issues, but nothing earth shattering. The game play was great in the original game. I felt like I was playing in the Star Wars Universe. It probably had the best client base I have seen in a MMO. You actually had to work to be a Jedi, as it should be. The current game is just another EQ clone in sheeps clothing.
The original swg was great, sure it had problems what mmo does not. The problem was they wanted to take the game to a console version so they nerfed it down into easy to do cookie cutter stuff. They took jedi by the way took me 2 years to get to that point of a very hard grind, and handed evybody a light saber, here kiddies have fun. So we took a great game and made it slop. I log in from time to time when i get free 15 days thats about it. The console thing never surfaced after about 80% of the player base said im done with this.
I dont see it being very hard to figure out. The reality is w.o.w. exists. If your game doesnt have enough to offer the wow'ers out there they will almost definately return to wow even if they love the IP they're quitting. If anyone is like me they hate themselves for playing wow but there just isnt anything better. I've been pulled away from wow for many other titles but i always end up coming back cause dev's arent making games better than wow. Why would you expect someone to play an inferiour game just because it says Dungeons &Dragons on the box?
First and foremost you NEED a big interesting world. Everything instanced and world maps that dont make sense drive me insane. If i want to be confined to a tiny little map or whatever i'll buy a console game of the IP i want to get into. When i log into an MMO i want a world i can travel around.
2nd) You have to at least know what the competiton is doing and not make the same mistakes. I quit War when after putting a bunch of time into gaining the influence needed for a great epic ax the ITEM MODEL was identical to the level 1 starter ax i had. You have to know that one of the draws of wow is the item/char modeling so if you dont step up your game people will like looking at the wow gear more. I dont think ive found ANY game at release that has some sort of gear preview option like wow has.
3rd) i think the last thing that is absolutely important is common sense in the game model your developing. MMO"s are about freedom and exploring. Dont make me choose crafting or exploring. Just let me go check that cave out and if there's baddies in it let me beat on them, and if there's gold in there and i find it let me dig it out.
In the end i think it's crazy to think your IP is gonna make people stay in a game that just isnt fun/interesting/complex/attractive. The IP will generate interest in buying the game but the game has to be good to keep people paying. And i really, REALLY want to be playing something else but my money is important to me. Im not giving it to you if you dont make something good. It doesnt even have to be better than wow just dont make it worse.
If you dont know your history your doomed to repeat it, right?
I agree with you , completely . All of you made corect , fact - based , opinions . In my opnion , the IP - based MMOs are condemned from the start , because :
1 . The continous limitations problems , created by the IP licensors , the fans which will always will know more than the developers about the game , etc . , like : legal problems , etc .
Even if some non - based IP MMOs have failed , we musn't forget that the :
1 . The greatest and most constant succesess in the videogame industry were non - IP based , like : Halo serie , C&C serie , Starcraft , WoW , EVE , Dragon Age : Origins , etc. and other franchizes which i'll not remember here , because are many .
2 . The greatest and most constant failures in the videogame industry were IP based , like : all superheroes games , all Star Trek & Star wars games ( exception KOTOR ), etc .
In the short - run , the IP - based MMOs may succeed , but , in the long-run , I don't think so.
In my opinion , they should concentrate all their time , money and energy , to create original , non IP based MMOGs - only .
Thank you for listening me.