Why does every thread about a hardcore mmo get pages and pages of responses? Usually it's from various people complaining about how they don't like hardcore gamers. Blaming them for their dislike of whatever game.
If you are going though all the effort to create a game that "hardcore" pve, pvp and rp can agree on via different server types why not just create a casual server?
I would enjoy a mmo that took more effort and thought but I wouldn't enjoy a mmo that put in artificial time sinks just for the sake of wasting time. Slower skill gain would be good but needing to take 10 minutes to move from point A to point B is a waste of time not added effort. Really if someone were to take the core design of UO give it a 3d revamp, revamp the combat to add in various abilities based on skill, create different server types to keep the pvp and pve people happy you would have a pretty decent game.
Fair enough, But if that does happen, why would those folks who have been playing the indie MMO switch to the AAA company's game? I say that reasoning that by the time the AAA company can push it out the door the indie company would have been rolling for years and brought their game up to that AAA standard, plus have tons of "content" behind them to boot. It kind goes along with why would anyone want to hop on board with one of these so-called wow clones when they have the original over here and tons of time invested. Seems like a catch 22 of sorts.
I put that one down to human nature; we always want the new and the shiny.
It's why EQ and DAoC lovers are not satisfied playing EQ and DAoC.
WoW players are the same. Masses of us flocked to WAR when it launched, purely because it was new, shiny and looked a bit like WoW but with better graphics and world PvP.
I've never seen any hard data on this; but my instinct is that the majority of people are inherently drawn to game-hopping. I don't know many people who are absolutely devoted to a single MMO. Hell, even I bought Aion and I really hate the anime OTT asian art style. A wee sniff of something interestingly new and/or potentially "better" (AoC's "new combat experience", for example) is enough of a draw for a lot of people.
To paraphrase Costner: If you hype it, they will buy.
As to whether they'd stay in the AAA or return to the familiar indie title? .. hard to say. Would depend on how well the AAA implemented their preferred game mechanics, as well as the usual factors like graphics and stuff.
Ok. So then the thing that puzzles me is that, essentially people who played EQ, DAoC, AC and UO loved the vast majority of things about the game and just wanted a graphics update and more/new content (knowing that content isn't only quests).
The games were highly successful when speaking within the realm in which they were introduced. The puzzling part, or I should say frustrating for me and maybe others, is that these companies, instead of applying such updates to the existing game systems instead turn to something that other folks are doing. Instead of advancing and building upon their own successful visions, they ditch them.
WOW took all those things from those games...at least the good ones or viable features MOST people wanted and here we are.
Why can't these companies do what you want them to do? Its because those game's successes were due to the newness of the games, and mostly ignorance of the players at the time, not any particular GOOD features. Recreating those features in a new game simply doesn't work for those that already "experienced them". It was magic the first time only. That first time you played Pacman was awesome. Could you go replay Pacman if it looked photorealistic=) Nope. Its still just Pacman.
You can't throw a whole bunch of downtime at people and expect them to eat it up. You can't CREATE community. It just happens. You also can't turn back time and turn everyone ignorant and naive again.
You can't manufacture nostalgia. Its not a feature that can be created. THAT's what certain people want, but its a unicorn. You won't capture it again. Sorry=)
I think what was said earlier about supporting a game long enough for it to get really good, is actually on the nose. But that requires investing money into a product that may never evolve, as it depends on a lot of other players doing the same thing. In order to get a hardcore game, the best way may actually be to form an investment fund with like minded players, pay $15 into it every month for three years, then go to an MMO company and say - this is what we want developed and we'll pay you $X now, and $Y every year for the next three years to get it up and running. Six year waiting period, $1080 invested, quality determined by number of interested players.
But there is another factor that has to be considered - the evolution of the gamer on a personal level.
I used to play EQ. Hardcore. Which for me meant 6 hours a day, every weekday after work, and 12-18 hours a day on weekends. At that point in my life, that was fine and it was what I wanted to do with my time. Now it's unusual for me to have 3 hours a night, 3 nights a week, and six hours a day on weekends. This is not because I like games any less, but because I have family commitments that I didn't have 5-6 years ago. My priorities have changed. So I play WoW and EvE, and sometimes either Vanguard or AoC, dependant on mood. Even now if I suddenly had a lot of time (like 9 months unemployment, thank you GFC), I don't have the interest in going back to a hardcore game because my priorities have changed.
The problem with a hardcore game is that it does not allow for the evolution of the player beyond the point where they have that time and money. If you MUST invest 5 hours per day to achieve anything, then when you can no longer invest that time, the game is worthless to you. Because you've got the hardcore achievement mentality, without the ability to follow it through, and so you're just going to be incredibly frustrated.
But if you're talking about hardcore in terms of game mechanics, and several people have quite rightly pointed out that 'hardcore' is a subjective viewpoint, then no, its not a goldmine. Vanguard was going to be that 'hardcore' MMO, only it couldn't sustain a competitive playerbase with the hardcore elements incorporated. So it capitulated on some points to appeal to a wider group because it had to be financially viable.
Development companies want to copy WoW's success, but without really taking the time to understand what Blizzard did that made the game work so well. And I don't just mean in terms of shiny graphics and polish, but these were factors:
1 - Blizzard has good customer service.
This point will be debatable for those who've had bad experiences with them, but I'd expect with 11 million customers, they have far more money and people invested on providing customer support for WoW than any other MMO has. They also haven't outsourced it to India - it's situated where the players are, it's provided in English, French, German, Spanish, Russian, Korean, and Chinese. If you're a 'genuine' player, and you have a 'genuine' problem that you didn't cause yourself by sharing your account, trading it, buying or selling it, or generally being an ass, you can get help. You get hacked, you can get your account back without having to work out what credit card info is now on it (FFXI), and only having the option of one reimbursal for the lifetime of the account (SONY - Vanguard, EQ, EQII).
2 - Structured Goal Setting and Achievement
A lot of anecdotal evidence around addiction to MMOs has focussed on the appeal of a game where you can feel like you're achieving more than you are in real life. Blizzard set up easy to achieve goals, and made it so you can get something done in a short space of time. For many people that's a negative, but for many others, it means that even short times spent in front of the screen net results. Not 2 hours LFG in Plane of Tranquility. Note that this was shortened even further with the new cross realm LFG tool in WoW.
3 - Game on Demand
By using instances, WoW assures the player that the bosses that they want to kill are always ready when the players are. There is no more 'log onto EQ, send out scouts or use showEQ to find out what's up, and discover the asian guilds have killed everything that spawned today, leaving you with a six hour to six day respawn timer'. If you want to do Ulduar, you can go do Ulduar, and apart from the 'one shot per week' instance lockout, you aren't competing with other people to get dibs on that instance. Sure, there are people that miss the adrenaline buzz of racing to clear PoFire minis to get to Fennin Ro first, but for a lot of people, they want a game where they choose when to raid, not a game that chooses their raid times for them.
In my opinion, wow-clone or not, any game that wants to achieve serious success now, must address at least those three points.
Finally -
MMO gaming has shifted in the last ten years as its audience has changed. Initially, it was Gen X-ers, and now Gen Y is moving into (and possibly dominating) the field as the Gen X-ers step out to have babies and careers. These two groups of people have (as a stereotype and generalisation) markedly different attitudes to the way they want their entertainment delivered. It isn't simply a matter of blaming the 'casuals' for the way in which content has been dumbed down and simplified, because this is a trend that is happening across all media and entertainment platforms globally in response to consumer demand. I think it's unreasonable to assume that the MMO community is somehow unaffected by the mass migration of technology towards instant gratification, but rather that the trend within the community is being driven by the expectations of Gen Y on a whole range of issues including, but not limited to, how they want to game.
Seems like the OP is just describing his perfect MMO. Wishful thinking; but don't hold your breath. There's no money in hardcore MMOs.
I believe there is ,but not in the way you guys are thinking,witch is PVP.
FFXI is/was more or less a hardcore game,but still not near the penalties ,i think it could have had.That game with literally zero marketing over here was a huge success and really only shunned by many because of it's difficulty to get groups.
So i believe there is still a huge market for this type of game,the only reason we are seeing a trend towards simple/easy mode is to cater to the majority.
The very definition of a game is entertainment and can be educational,what i am seeing in games ,is just a form of BRIBING little kids with auto win functions to keep them coming back,that is not gaming.What is insanely comical is how many people play games to see a level number rise,if you find looking at a number rise to be entertainment,you need serious help.You might as well watch paint dry or grass grow it has the same effect.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Investors are a big part of the problem, as I see it. They play the money game, and the money game permits them to only see Blizzard and WoW.
I dont see it like that. You just need developers that can sell their unique idea to their investors. Investors are needed by default with commercial products.
Also I think that MMO marketing still has to learn a lot. A lot of companies still tend to hype MMO's as if its a movie. That kind of exaggeration wont work for a product based on subscriptions where you want to make your customers stay. I see this as much as a problem as developers teams that cant sell their idea to an investor.
If investors were sequestered from the rest of the world I might agree. But they aren't. They hear the WoW has 11 million subscribers talk and while they may not vocalize it in meetings I'm pretty sure they're comparing anything pitched to them to what they know of WoW.
I don't think developers think they can sell a unique idea anymore or wander too far off the reservation. The AAA developers that is. The indies can do whatever they want and almost always run out of money before completion.
Indie developers also have to find investors. But apparently have trouble getting one that has sufficient funds to let them create what they want. A lot of them didnt chose to be a so called Indie developer, they are only labelled as such by the media because they are not backed up by a large company.
Its the investors money, so they naturally go with whats in their eyes the safer choice. Its up to the developers to convince them that their idea is the safer bet.
Why does every thread about a hardcore mmo get pages and pages of responses? Usually it's from various people complaining about how they don't like hardcore gamers. Blaming them for their dislike of whatever game.
You guys hate douchebags, not hardcore games.
True, but hardcore games, attract douchebags, because when douchebags see the word 'hardcore' they see it as an opportunity for massive douchebaggery.
If a company decided to devote millions of dollars towards a hardcore mmo, it would be a massive hit. I'm sure of it. All these games coming out are the same. They're linear, they're easy, and they are driving the older mmoers away. If a company really wants to make money, they need to stop trying to get the casual crowd (which seem to be satisfied with damn near anything as long as they can press a button to achieve everything in the game) and take a step back in time. Make a real sandbox game with different server types for every kind of hardcore. You have your hardcore PvEers who like spending days planning raids and gathering resources. You have your RPers who want to create as much as they can and make their own story. And then you have the hardcore PvPers (myself) who want their actions to actually have meaning, who want to destroy property of other players, and want to defend their own. And of course you have crossovers who fit into more than one category of hardcore.
Make the game extremely intricate. Stats galore, no classes, no levels. Reward those who log a lot of time testing the ins and outs of the game. Give crafters real power in the game. They should make everything, but they may need help from their combat friends obtaining items. Make this game extremely hard to master. It'll keep the "I want it now" crowd out and create a dedicated community who have a genuine investment in the game.
I know people will scream how darkfall failed, but that game had an extremely small budget and wasn't really much of a sandbox. If a studio really put effort and money into a hardcore game, they would be rewarded. There are a ton of old school mmo players looking for a home.
Oh dear, and then you had to mention PK didn't you.
Sorry, won't work. PK has been tried and rejected. What will NEVER work in a paid for game is to make one group of paying customers the content for other paying customers. Don't matter how you dress it up, basically you want to make the lives of other paying customers miserable.
I am ok with some of the aspects of your "game" I am ok with. (i am labeling it as your game even if obviously your not making one).
Problem with hardcore pvp in an MMO is it cators solely to those that have more time and enjoy griefing. Griefers travel in packs as well. Its not hardcore or fun to loose weeks or months of work because someone decided it would be fun to grief you.
I do on the other hand like open PvP with a risk/reward system. I think lineage 2 had the best balance for this before the sin eater quest line where a fight between two people ment nothing negative happened but killing random people just for the lulz made you a huge target. Nowadays PvP is non existant in L2, and theres no more real penalty for going red which sucks.
Yet they keep their "hardcore" crafting system which means the normal player can spend months farming certain items and loose it all in one click since theres no 100% recipees and more times than none you fail.
If a company decided to devote millions of dollars towards a hardcore mmo, it would be a massive hit. I'm sure of it. All these games coming out are the same. They're linear, they're easy, and they are driving the older mmoers away. If a company really wants to make money, they need to stop trying to get the casual crowd (which seem to be satisfied with damn near anything as long as they can press a button to achieve everything in the game) and take a step back in time. Make a real sandbox game with different server types for every kind of hardcore. You have your hardcore PvEers who like spending days planning raids and gathering resources. You have your RPers who want to create as much as they can and make their own story. And then you have the hardcore PvPers (myself) who want their actions to actually have meaning, who want to destroy property of other players, and want to defend their own. And of course you have crossovers who fit into more than one category of hardcore.
Make the game extremely intricate. Stats galore, no classes, no levels. Reward those who log a lot of time testing the ins and outs of the game. Give crafters real power in the game. They should make everything, but they may need help from their combat friends obtaining items. Make this game extremely hard to master. It'll keep the "I want it now" crowd out and create a dedicated community who have a genuine investment in the game.
I know people will scream how darkfall failed, but that game had an extremely small budget and wasn't really much of a sandbox. If a studio really put effort and money into a hardcore game, they would be rewarded. There are a ton of old school mmo players looking for a home.
Oh dear, and then you had to mention PK didn't you.
Sorry, won't work. PK has been tried and rejected. What will NEVER work in a paid for game is to make one group of paying customers the content for other paying customers. Don't matter how you dress it up, basically you want to make the lives of other paying customers miserable.
Go play Eve, that has everything you want.
Where did I say forced pvp/pk? Nowhere. I also meantioned different server types.
Whenever a pvp hater sees the word pvp, they immediately flip out and throw all logic out the door. Thanks for keeping that stereotype alive by not reading after you saw the word pvp.
I don't think you realize the money and resources you are suggesting for creating and maintaining such a monstrosity.
The third reply pretty much nailed the response the the OP dead on.
It is not financially possible to make a single game that caters to all people and all playstyles. You basically advocate the creation of separate "servers'" that cater to every play style. PVE, FFA PVP, RVR etc. which essential advocates creating separate games.
Also, going back to the lesson of one of the first MMORPGs, Ultima Online, once the PVE'er were seperated from the PVP crowd (Trammel) the PVP side of the game died.
Why? Because many (not all) hardcore PVPer's are more interested in preying on the weak and unware and not all that interested in a fair fight. Not saying this is a bad thing, in EVE I try to make sure I'm only involved in fights that I can win and win big but this is not a game mechanic that appeals to a broader, more casual audience.
As another poster mentioned, we "hardcore" players don't agree on what makes a great game. I think EVE is great, others despise it, they love Darkfall. So the sandbox/hardcore niche is broken up and a AAA gaming house does not want a game with 500 subs, they don't. really. They are looking for WOW numbers or some reasonable subset of it. (esp with 100 M+ on the line).
Just like most movies follow the same old boring (yet profitable) forumlas, so do most online games these days.
Point to EVE as a poster child is a bad example. When it first came out it was a broken POS game in some peoples eyes and it took a couple of years of solid support from the loyal fanbase (plus the NGEing of SWG sure helped as well) to gel into the game it is today.
Darkfall might actually pull the same thing off, seems to be getting better all the time and 3 years from now we might be marveling at its success.
But regardless, it too will never surpass 500IK and that just isnt enough subs to keep a major publishing house happy.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran It is not financially possible to make a single game that caters to all people and all playstyles. You basically advocate the creation of separate "servers'" that cater to every play style. PVE, FFA PVP, RVR etc. which essential advocates creating separate games.
Wasn't this pretty standard "back in the day"? I remember DAOC having RvR servers, FFA PvP servers (two), and a PvE server. I know people can clear this up, but didn't EQ and AC also have alternate servers?
There are a lot of "hardcore" mmo's out there, they don't do well for a reason. People play games to have fun, not to work. I work enough that I don't want to come home and play a game like lineage 2 where if I play for an hour i'll only get .26 exp on my xp bar.
I used to like hardcore games like lineage 2 when I was in school and had a lot more time on my hands.
What makes a sandbox game "hardcore?" Is it that there are no classes or that's it's very time consuming? The way I see it is making stuff in a game take forever to accomplish isn't hardcore, it's just that, time consuming.
Time is a part of the equation that equals hard. Nothing that can done quickly is considered hard and the majority of things that take time are considered difficult.
I agree that some things should take a while to accomplish, but just because something takes long to do certainly doesn't mean it's hard, just a timesink. There can be things that are a lot more difficult and take a lot less time than other things.
Yer talking old school gamers. Old school gamers that currently are already in the market playing something else, are married, dead, or just not interested in MMO's, anymore. Making a tediously difficult game that sucks hours out of your day to even do the most basic of things... weeks to learn the most basic ins and outs of the game, etc, is a game that will create toxic amounts of spousal aggro; so you'll get about as many married old school gamers as you will dead ones.
How many hardcore gamers do you consider to be out in the market now? A sizable chunk of the Eve players, perhaps? Some Darkfall folks and a sprinkling of Fallen Earthers...?
That leaves those that left. Even, back in the day, when pooled in with the now married and/or dead gamers, they didn't make a big enough pile of subs to carry a AAA title in their prime. How on earth are they going to, now?
Could a hardcore game be profitable? Perhaps. A gold mine? Unlikely.
LOL!!! Yer talking old school gamers. Old school gamers that currently are already in the market playing something else, are married, dead, or just not interested in MMO's, anymore. Making a tediously difficult game that sucks hours out of your day to even do the most basic of things... weeks to learn the most basic ins and outs of the game, etc, is a game that will create toxic amounts of spousal aggro; so you'll get about as many married old school gamers as you will dead ones. How many hardcore gamers do you consider to be out in the market now? A sizable chunk of the Eve players, perhaps? Some Darkfall folks and a sprinkling of Fallen Earthers...? That leaves those that left. Even, back in the day, when pooled in with the now married and/or dead gamers, they didn't make a big enough pile of subs to carry a AAA title in their prime. How on earth are they going to, now? Could a hardcore game be profitable? Perhaps. A gold mine? Unlikely.
Well first off, I fixed your horrible font color so other people might be able to read what you wrote. Bright Green on Dark Grey doesn't work. It's painful and the colors run together. There contrast is way too high combined with it being too bright.
Anyway, as an MMO Player for 10hrs with at least 20 games under my belt (not including games I just spent a few hours in), I have been on the hardcore and casual sides of things. I have never actually seen a game that required me to play so many hours per week as I have seen in End Game WoW, being in a guild that was actually able to finish an End Game Raid and I played alot less than more than 90% of my guild. My wife is the same way in her guild.
Where as, just because a game is "Hardcore" and requires you to play many more hours to be top, doesn't mean you have to. If the game is hardcore, then the casual player can still advance. Where as in a game like WoW, the casual player stops advancing totally at a certain point. They can roll another alt, but that's not advancing, that's rolling an alt.
You can easily max out 5man gear in a solid hardcore week, then what's left? More hardcore play. I had one character max out 5mans, playing casually at maybe 1-2hrs a night, in 2 weeks.
There are alot of us Hardcore Players out there and everyone of them I know IRL, is married. My wife plays WoW more than I ever could imagine and I'm starting to get her into Darkfall and another friend's wife plays. The rest just are wives, just like any other wife. Playing a game is no different than a guy who sits there and watches TV all day. You are obviously very immature and very young if you think this has any bearing on weather or not people can play. You need to grow up. (Edit: heh, I hope your age in your profile isn't right. You got 11yrs on me if it is. lol)
I know many many people online and IRL that are hardcore players just waiting for another good Triple A title to come out. Some don't any game anymore, some play WoW to pass the time but would leave in a heartbeat.
LOL!!! Yer talking old school gamers. Old school gamers that currently are already in the market playing something else, are married, dead, or just not interested in MMO's, anymore. Making a tediously difficult game that sucks hours out of your day to even do the most basic of things... weeks to learn the most basic ins and outs of the game, etc, is a game that will create toxic amounts of spousal aggro; so you'll get about as many married old school gamers as you will dead ones. How many hardcore gamers do you consider to be out in the market now? A sizable chunk of the Eve players, perhaps? Some Darkfall folks and a sprinkling of Fallen Earthers...? That leaves those that left. Even, back in the day, when pooled in with the now married and/or dead gamers, they didn't make a big enough pile of subs to carry a AAA title in their prime. How on earth are they going to, now? Could a hardcore game be profitable? Perhaps. A gold mine? Unlikely.
Well first off, I fixed your horrible font color so other people might be able to read what you wrote. Bright Green on Dark Grey doesn't work. It's painful and the colors run together. There contrast is way too high combined with it being too bright.
Hmm... considering that green(and amber) text on a dark grey crt was one of the first choices for 8 hours of data entry computing... EVER... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Far as the rest of your post goes, I don't need to reply. There weren't enough hardcore gamers then and there certainly aren't enough hardcore gamers now to fund a AAA title. It is, and can only be, my opinion and speculation.
Seems like the OP is just describing his perfect MMO. Wishful thinking; but don't hold your breath. There's no money in hardcore MMOs.
We don't know that. None have been tried by a company capable of investing "AAA" type money into such a project post 2004.
That's true, but why is that?
I think we need to accept that a company willing to spend $100m to develop a new MMO is going to spend a bit of cash on some market research too. It seems reasonable to conclude (given the recent changes in the MMO genre) that the results of said research is that the casual market is the one to aim for.
Again, EVE.
Close enough to AAA polish, and they did not spend 100 million dollars to make it.
They've probably spent over $100m in total by now. CCP do reinvest a lot of their income in to the game - perhaps because it's mostly owned by the people who develop it.
Hmm... considering that green(and amber) text on a dark grey crt was one of the first choices for 8 hours of data entry computing... EVER... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Green on True Black or a VERY Dark Grey.
This is much easier to read than -> This. The contrast is higher.
How many of wow's players are considered hard core? Maybe what? 10%? So you're essentially trying to get a gold mine out of 10% of the market. You're literally saying "no we don't want the whole thing giving hard core players ~5% of the content and the rest to our money makers the casual market."
10% of the market = Gold Mine
Even 1% of the market = multi-million dollars in yearly revenue
Everyone that keeps suggesting that casual players outnumber hardcore players by such a huge amount are wrong. Yes, casual players probably outnumber hardcore players, but not by as much as you seem to think. No, I don't have numbers for this. What I do have is over 10 years of MMO experience and I have met a lot of people in the games I've played in that time. It seems that just about everyone I meet, "at least 80%", is on at several hours a day (5-8?). That's not really casual. No, playing a lot of time during the day isn't the only thing that makes you hardcore, but they seem to prove that in a number of other ways.
A "AAA" Hardcore MMO, WOULD be a goldmine, regardless of what anyone wants to believe, there are enough of us lingering around looking for our next game that isn't catered to casual players, to probably at least number in the millions. It probably (won't) be as successful as WoW, but a goldmine? Yes.
Comments
I think a "hardcore mmo" is one of those things most people want because it sounds cool, but when it's there they won't play it.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Why does every thread about a hardcore mmo get pages and pages of responses? Usually it's from various people complaining about how they don't like hardcore gamers. Blaming them for their dislike of whatever game.
You guys hate douchebags, not hardcore games.
The Official God FAQ
If you are going though all the effort to create a game that "hardcore" pve, pvp and rp can agree on via different server types why not just create a casual server?
I would enjoy a mmo that took more effort and thought but I wouldn't enjoy a mmo that put in artificial time sinks just for the sake of wasting time. Slower skill gain would be good but needing to take 10 minutes to move from point A to point B is a waste of time not added effort. Really if someone were to take the core design of UO give it a 3d revamp, revamp the combat to add in various abilities based on skill, create different server types to keep the pvp and pve people happy you would have a pretty decent game.
I put that one down to human nature; we always want the new and the shiny.
It's why EQ and DAoC lovers are not satisfied playing EQ and DAoC.
WoW players are the same. Masses of us flocked to WAR when it launched, purely because it was new, shiny and looked a bit like WoW but with better graphics and world PvP.
I've never seen any hard data on this; but my instinct is that the majority of people are inherently drawn to game-hopping. I don't know many people who are absolutely devoted to a single MMO. Hell, even I bought Aion and I really hate the anime OTT asian art style. A wee sniff of something interestingly new and/or potentially "better" (AoC's "new combat experience", for example) is enough of a draw for a lot of people.
To paraphrase Costner: If you hype it, they will buy.
As to whether they'd stay in the AAA or return to the familiar indie title? .. hard to say. Would depend on how well the AAA implemented their preferred game mechanics, as well as the usual factors like graphics and stuff.
Ok. So then the thing that puzzles me is that, essentially people who played EQ, DAoC, AC and UO loved the vast majority of things about the game and just wanted a graphics update and more/new content (knowing that content isn't only quests).
The games were highly successful when speaking within the realm in which they were introduced. The puzzling part, or I should say frustrating for me and maybe others, is that these companies, instead of applying such updates to the existing game systems instead turn to something that other folks are doing. Instead of advancing and building upon their own successful visions, they ditch them.
WOW took all those things from those games...at least the good ones or viable features MOST people wanted and here we are.
Why can't these companies do what you want them to do? Its because those game's successes were due to the newness of the games, and mostly ignorance of the players at the time, not any particular GOOD features. Recreating those features in a new game simply doesn't work for those that already "experienced them". It was magic the first time only. That first time you played Pacman was awesome. Could you go replay Pacman if it looked photorealistic=) Nope. Its still just Pacman.
You can't throw a whole bunch of downtime at people and expect them to eat it up. You can't CREATE community. It just happens. You also can't turn back time and turn everyone ignorant and naive again.
You can't manufacture nostalgia. Its not a feature that can be created. THAT's what certain people want, but its a unicorn. You won't capture it again. Sorry=)
I think what was said earlier about supporting a game long enough for it to get really good, is actually on the nose. But that requires investing money into a product that may never evolve, as it depends on a lot of other players doing the same thing. In order to get a hardcore game, the best way may actually be to form an investment fund with like minded players, pay $15 into it every month for three years, then go to an MMO company and say - this is what we want developed and we'll pay you $X now, and $Y every year for the next three years to get it up and running. Six year waiting period, $1080 invested, quality determined by number of interested players.
But there is another factor that has to be considered - the evolution of the gamer on a personal level.
I used to play EQ. Hardcore. Which for me meant 6 hours a day, every weekday after work, and 12-18 hours a day on weekends. At that point in my life, that was fine and it was what I wanted to do with my time. Now it's unusual for me to have 3 hours a night, 3 nights a week, and six hours a day on weekends. This is not because I like games any less, but because I have family commitments that I didn't have 5-6 years ago. My priorities have changed. So I play WoW and EvE, and sometimes either Vanguard or AoC, dependant on mood. Even now if I suddenly had a lot of time (like 9 months unemployment, thank you GFC), I don't have the interest in going back to a hardcore game because my priorities have changed.
The problem with a hardcore game is that it does not allow for the evolution of the player beyond the point where they have that time and money. If you MUST invest 5 hours per day to achieve anything, then when you can no longer invest that time, the game is worthless to you. Because you've got the hardcore achievement mentality, without the ability to follow it through, and so you're just going to be incredibly frustrated.
But if you're talking about hardcore in terms of game mechanics, and several people have quite rightly pointed out that 'hardcore' is a subjective viewpoint, then no, its not a goldmine. Vanguard was going to be that 'hardcore' MMO, only it couldn't sustain a competitive playerbase with the hardcore elements incorporated. So it capitulated on some points to appeal to a wider group because it had to be financially viable.
Development companies want to copy WoW's success, but without really taking the time to understand what Blizzard did that made the game work so well. And I don't just mean in terms of shiny graphics and polish, but these were factors:
1 - Blizzard has good customer service.
This point will be debatable for those who've had bad experiences with them, but I'd expect with 11 million customers, they have far more money and people invested on providing customer support for WoW than any other MMO has. They also haven't outsourced it to India - it's situated where the players are, it's provided in English, French, German, Spanish, Russian, Korean, and Chinese. If you're a 'genuine' player, and you have a 'genuine' problem that you didn't cause yourself by sharing your account, trading it, buying or selling it, or generally being an ass, you can get help. You get hacked, you can get your account back without having to work out what credit card info is now on it (FFXI), and only having the option of one reimbursal for the lifetime of the account (SONY - Vanguard, EQ, EQII).
2 - Structured Goal Setting and Achievement
A lot of anecdotal evidence around addiction to MMOs has focussed on the appeal of a game where you can feel like you're achieving more than you are in real life. Blizzard set up easy to achieve goals, and made it so you can get something done in a short space of time. For many people that's a negative, but for many others, it means that even short times spent in front of the screen net results. Not 2 hours LFG in Plane of Tranquility. Note that this was shortened even further with the new cross realm LFG tool in WoW.
3 - Game on Demand
By using instances, WoW assures the player that the bosses that they want to kill are always ready when the players are. There is no more 'log onto EQ, send out scouts or use showEQ to find out what's up, and discover the asian guilds have killed everything that spawned today, leaving you with a six hour to six day respawn timer'. If you want to do Ulduar, you can go do Ulduar, and apart from the 'one shot per week' instance lockout, you aren't competing with other people to get dibs on that instance. Sure, there are people that miss the adrenaline buzz of racing to clear PoFire minis to get to Fennin Ro first, but for a lot of people, they want a game where they choose when to raid, not a game that chooses their raid times for them.
In my opinion, wow-clone or not, any game that wants to achieve serious success now, must address at least those three points.
Finally -
MMO gaming has shifted in the last ten years as its audience has changed. Initially, it was Gen X-ers, and now Gen Y is moving into (and possibly dominating) the field as the Gen X-ers step out to have babies and careers. These two groups of people have (as a stereotype and generalisation) markedly different attitudes to the way they want their entertainment delivered. It isn't simply a matter of blaming the 'casuals' for the way in which content has been dumbed down and simplified, because this is a trend that is happening across all media and entertainment platforms globally in response to consumer demand. I think it's unreasonable to assume that the MMO community is somehow unaffected by the mass migration of technology towards instant gratification, but rather that the trend within the community is being driven by the expectations of Gen Y on a whole range of issues including, but not limited to, how they want to game.
Cheers
I believe there is ,but not in the way you guys are thinking,witch is PVP.
FFXI is/was more or less a hardcore game,but still not near the penalties ,i think it could have had.That game with literally zero marketing over here was a huge success and really only shunned by many because of it's difficulty to get groups.
So i believe there is still a huge market for this type of game,the only reason we are seeing a trend towards simple/easy mode is to cater to the majority.
The very definition of a game is entertainment and can be educational,what i am seeing in games ,is just a form of BRIBING little kids with auto win functions to keep them coming back,that is not gaming.What is insanely comical is how many people play games to see a level number rise,if you find looking at a number rise to be entertainment,you need serious help.You might as well watch paint dry or grass grow it has the same effect.
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I didn't know Darkfall failed. It's seems to me it has everything your looking for.
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I dont see it like that. You just need developers that can sell their unique idea to their investors. Investors are needed by default with commercial products.
Also I think that MMO marketing still has to learn a lot. A lot of companies still tend to hype MMO's as if its a movie. That kind of exaggeration wont work for a product based on subscriptions where you want to make your customers stay. I see this as much as a problem as developers teams that cant sell their idea to an investor.
If investors were sequestered from the rest of the world I might agree. But they aren't. They hear the WoW has 11 million subscribers talk and while they may not vocalize it in meetings I'm pretty sure they're comparing anything pitched to them to what they know of WoW.
I don't think developers think they can sell a unique idea anymore or wander too far off the reservation. The AAA developers that is. The indies can do whatever they want and almost always run out of money before completion.
Indie developers also have to find investors. But apparently have trouble getting one that has sufficient funds to let them create what they want. A lot of them didnt chose to be a so called Indie developer, they are only labelled as such by the media because they are not backed up by a large company.
Its the investors money, so they naturally go with whats in their eyes the safer choice. Its up to the developers to convince them that their idea is the safer bet.
darkfall
True, but hardcore games, attract douchebags, because when douchebags see the word 'hardcore' they see it as an opportunity for massive douchebaggery.
Oh dear, and then you had to mention PK didn't you.
Sorry, won't work. PK has been tried and rejected. What will NEVER work in a paid for game is to make one group of paying customers the content for other paying customers. Don't matter how you dress it up, basically you want to make the lives of other paying customers miserable.
Go play Eve, that has everything you want.
I am ok with some of the aspects of your "game" I am ok with. (i am labeling it as your game even if obviously your not making one).
Problem with hardcore pvp in an MMO is it cators solely to those that have more time and enjoy griefing. Griefers travel in packs as well. Its not hardcore or fun to loose weeks or months of work because someone decided it would be fun to grief you.
I do on the other hand like open PvP with a risk/reward system. I think lineage 2 had the best balance for this before the sin eater quest line where a fight between two people ment nothing negative happened but killing random people just for the lulz made you a huge target. Nowadays PvP is non existant in L2, and theres no more real penalty for going red which sucks.
Yet they keep their "hardcore" crafting system which means the normal player can spend months farming certain items and loose it all in one click since theres no 100% recipees and more times than none you fail.
Oh dear, and then you had to mention PK didn't you.
Sorry, won't work. PK has been tried and rejected. What will NEVER work in a paid for game is to make one group of paying customers the content for other paying customers. Don't matter how you dress it up, basically you want to make the lives of other paying customers miserable.
Go play Eve, that has everything you want.
Where did I say forced pvp/pk? Nowhere. I also meantioned different server types.
Whenever a pvp hater sees the word pvp, they immediately flip out and throw all logic out the door. Thanks for keeping that stereotype alive by not reading after you saw the word pvp.
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The third reply pretty much nailed the response the the OP dead on.
It is not financially possible to make a single game that caters to all people and all playstyles. You basically advocate the creation of separate "servers'" that cater to every play style. PVE, FFA PVP, RVR etc. which essential advocates creating separate games.
Also, going back to the lesson of one of the first MMORPGs, Ultima Online, once the PVE'er were seperated from the PVP crowd (Trammel) the PVP side of the game died.
Why? Because many (not all) hardcore PVPer's are more interested in preying on the weak and unware and not all that interested in a fair fight. Not saying this is a bad thing, in EVE I try to make sure I'm only involved in fights that I can win and win big but this is not a game mechanic that appeals to a broader, more casual audience.
As another poster mentioned, we "hardcore" players don't agree on what makes a great game. I think EVE is great, others despise it, they love Darkfall. So the sandbox/hardcore niche is broken up and a AAA gaming house does not want a game with 500 subs, they don't. really. They are looking for WOW numbers or some reasonable subset of it. (esp with 100 M+ on the line).
Just like most movies follow the same old boring (yet profitable) forumlas, so do most online games these days.
Point to EVE as a poster child is a bad example. When it first came out it was a broken POS game in some peoples eyes and it took a couple of years of solid support from the loyal fanbase (plus the NGEing of SWG sure helped as well) to gel into the game it is today.
Darkfall might actually pull the same thing off, seems to be getting better all the time and 3 years from now we might be marveling at its success.
But regardless, it too will never surpass 500IK and that just isnt enough subs to keep a major publishing house happy.
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Wasn't this pretty standard "back in the day"? I remember DAOC having RvR servers, FFA PvP servers (two), and a PvE server. I know people can clear this up, but didn't EQ and AC also have alternate servers?
There are a lot of "hardcore" mmo's out there, they don't do well for a reason. People play games to have fun, not to work. I work enough that I don't want to come home and play a game like lineage 2 where if I play for an hour i'll only get .26 exp on my xp bar.
I used to like hardcore games like lineage 2 when I was in school and had a lot more time on my hands.
Time is a part of the equation that equals hard. Nothing that can done quickly is considered hard and the majority of things that take time are considered difficult.
I agree that some things should take a while to accomplish, but just because something takes long to do certainly doesn't mean it's hard, just a timesink. There can be things that are a lot more difficult and take a lot less time than other things.
LOL!!!
Yer talking old school gamers. Old school gamers that currently are already in the market playing something else, are married, dead, or just not interested in MMO's, anymore. Making a tediously difficult game that sucks hours out of your day to even do the most basic of things... weeks to learn the most basic ins and outs of the game, etc, is a game that will create toxic amounts of spousal aggro; so you'll get about as many married old school gamers as you will dead ones.
How many hardcore gamers do you consider to be out in the market now? A sizable chunk of the Eve players, perhaps? Some Darkfall folks and a sprinkling of Fallen Earthers...?
That leaves those that left. Even, back in the day, when pooled in with the now married and/or dead gamers, they didn't make a big enough pile of subs to carry a AAA title in their prime. How on earth are they going to, now?
Could a hardcore game be profitable? Perhaps. A gold mine? Unlikely.
Well first off, I fixed your horrible font color so other people might be able to read what you wrote. Bright Green on Dark Grey doesn't work. It's painful and the colors run together. There contrast is way too high combined with it being too bright.
Anyway, as an MMO Player for 10hrs with at least 20 games under my belt (not including games I just spent a few hours in), I have been on the hardcore and casual sides of things. I have never actually seen a game that required me to play so many hours per week as I have seen in End Game WoW, being in a guild that was actually able to finish an End Game Raid and I played alot less than more than 90% of my guild. My wife is the same way in her guild.
Where as, just because a game is "Hardcore" and requires you to play many more hours to be top, doesn't mean you have to. If the game is hardcore, then the casual player can still advance. Where as in a game like WoW, the casual player stops advancing totally at a certain point. They can roll another alt, but that's not advancing, that's rolling an alt.
You can easily max out 5man gear in a solid hardcore week, then what's left? More hardcore play. I had one character max out 5mans, playing casually at maybe 1-2hrs a night, in 2 weeks.
There are alot of us Hardcore Players out there and everyone of them I know IRL, is married. My wife plays WoW more than I ever could imagine and I'm starting to get her into Darkfall and another friend's wife plays. The rest just are wives, just like any other wife. Playing a game is no different than a guy who sits there and watches TV all day. You are obviously very immature and very young if you think this has any bearing on weather or not people can play. You need to grow up. (Edit: heh, I hope your age in your profile isn't right. You got 11yrs on me if it is. lol)
I know many many people online and IRL that are hardcore players just waiting for another good Triple A title to come out. Some don't any game anymore, some play WoW to pass the time but would leave in a heartbeat.
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Well first off, I fixed your horrible font color so other people might be able to read what you wrote. Bright Green on Dark Grey doesn't work. It's painful and the colors run together. There contrast is way too high combined with it being too bright.
Hmm... considering that green(and amber) text on a dark grey crt was one of the first choices for 8 hours of data entry computing... EVER... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Far as the rest of your post goes, I don't need to reply. There weren't enough hardcore gamers then and there certainly aren't enough hardcore gamers now to fund a AAA title. It is, and can only be, my opinion and speculation.
We don't know that. None have been tried by a company capable of investing "AAA" type money into such a project post 2004.
That's true, but why is that?
I think we need to accept that a company willing to spend $100m to develop a new MMO is going to spend a bit of cash on some market research too. It seems reasonable to conclude (given the recent changes in the MMO genre) that the results of said research is that the casual market is the one to aim for.
Again, EVE.
Close enough to AAA polish, and they did not spend 100 million dollars to make it.
They've probably spent over $100m in total by now. CCP do reinvest a lot of their income in to the game - perhaps because it's mostly owned by the people who develop it.
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Hmm... considering that green(and amber) text on a dark grey crt was one of the first choices for 8 hours of data entry computing... EVER... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Green on True Black or a VERY Dark Grey.
This is much easier to read than -> This. The contrast is higher.
On a CRT, ^ That is easier to read even still.
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10% of the market = Gold Mine
Even 1% of the market = multi-million dollars in yearly revenue
the new fina fantasy will be the hardcore of the mmo genre
The OP is right.
Everyone that keeps suggesting that casual players outnumber hardcore players by such a huge amount are wrong. Yes, casual players probably outnumber hardcore players, but not by as much as you seem to think. No, I don't have numbers for this. What I do have is over 10 years of MMO experience and I have met a lot of people in the games I've played in that time. It seems that just about everyone I meet, "at least 80%", is on at several hours a day (5-8?). That's not really casual. No, playing a lot of time during the day isn't the only thing that makes you hardcore, but they seem to prove that in a number of other ways.
A "AAA" Hardcore MMO, WOULD be a goldmine, regardless of what anyone wants to believe, there are enough of us lingering around looking for our next game that isn't catered to casual players, to probably at least number in the millions. It probably (won't) be as successful as WoW, but a goldmine? Yes.