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General: Free Zone: Stuck in Denial

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  • Nhoj1983Nhoj1983 Member UncommonPosts: 185

    Not sure if I'd call it denial but I would say that people are set in their ways.  Learn to like one thing and won't try another.  That's the way of things.  And doesn't just appy to the f2p market.  I think that f2p has a future but they're still have a ways to go to meet the quality of some of the big boys.

  • stuxstux Member Posts: 462

    I think it is an major exaggeration to say people wouldn't try them. 

    I have tried Cash Shop games.

    AND.

    I HATE THEM.

    I think most people WILL try them if something decent comes out.

    Some will like them some will not.

     

     

    You are STILL paying for the damn thing.

    It isn't like you go into a al la carte restaurant and get a free meal.  They might let you in, give you a glass of water but if  you aren't going to order (pay for) anything that is all  you get.

  • LexiscatLexiscat Member Posts: 204

    Interesting read. From the perspective of a player, I really don't care which market is bigger, more profitable, seeing increases or declines.

    There are some fun F2P games out right now, and more will come out in the future. They are accessible, varied, and sometimes criminally addictive.

    I think there is a big untapped tax base in F2P games just waiting to be exploi... i mean explored.  Subscriptions are harder to rationalize additional taxation, since its not a point of sale type of transaction, but a recurring fee to retain membership.

    I guess i've made it to phase 3 and 4. Anger and Bargaining.

    “Nothing excites jaded Grandmasters more than a theoretical novelty”

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726

    Nice try at trying to relate apples to oranges.  Too bad it did not work.  The only one in denial here is the author.  I have played almost all of the popular f2p games and not one has much content compared to what you find in a p2p.  All the f2p are highly grindy and provide significant enhancements to the ones who spend lots of money on them.   While that might work in the eastern cultures, it does work very well here in the west.

    I still play some of the f2p, but I never spend a dime on them.  I actually like a challenge when I play, but I do avoid the pvp aspect as that generally is a no win situation.

  • ArchemorousArchemorous Member Posts: 197
    Originally posted by Ozmodan


     The only one in denial here is the author. 


     

    I know its sensible to have a section about F2P in a mmorpg site, but saying people are in denial about f2p is just going too far. F2P games are bad, its as simple as that. there is no common ground for advancement. you pay, you advance. you dont pay, you are cannon fodder to those who do. F2P games are there to make a quick buck, they dont offer any meaningful, lasting experience. We're not in denial, we just dont care.

    image

  • dterrydterry Member Posts: 449

    If F2P or cash shops are the future - then I will be done with the genre and back to RTS games or something else.

  • spyderbitespyderbite Member Posts: 28
    Originally posted by unholyfreak


    I can't help but feel that every one of your articles is putting down american games and praising asian games almost to the point of being a fanboy.



     

    Something to keep in mind is that more and more US based P2P games are going the way of Microtransactions as well. SOE has 4 games out now with a RMT store and services. Others, such as WoW are slowly easing in to the same model. DDO jumped in head first with the hybrid model.

    F2P with RMT seems to be a successful business model these days. Don't under estimate it. Its not a regional issue.. its an economical issue.

    image

  • DerrialDerrial Member Posts: 250

    Maybe it's just me, but I'm starting to see Richard Ahioshi's articles themselves as further evidence that F2P games are crap, because his articles never actually talk about the particulars of any F2P game. None. Not ever. All of the other columnists get into specifics about things that are happening with subscription MMO games like recent columns about WoW, Champions Online or Star Trek Online, but Ahioshi's articles are almost always about how MMO fans are dumb and blind to how awesome F2P games are. That's fine with me, but which F2P games are awesome? I'd like to know. Tell me something useful! I sometimes wonder if he has even played any MMO games in the last 10 years, or if he's just spreading F2P propaganda, shilling for the Asian MMO companies.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564
    Originally posted by CayneJobb


    Maybe it's just me, but I'm starting to see Richard Ahioshi's articles themselves as further evidence that F2P games are crap, because his articles never actually talk about the particulars of any F2P game. None. Not ever. All of the other columnists get into specifics about things that are happening with subscription MMO games like recent columns about WoW, Champions Online or Star Trek Online, but Ahioshi's articles are almost always about how MMO fans are dumb and blind to how awesome F2P games are. That's fine with me, but which F2P games are awesome? I'd like to know. Tell me something useful! I sometimes wonder if he has even played any MMO games in the last 10 years, or if he's just spreading F2P propaganda, shilling for the Asian MMO companies.

     

    Yep. I've said it before and I'll say it again... Aioshi's got himself on some kind of soap-box from which he preaches how wonderful and great and amazing F2P MMOs are, while ritually taking pot-shots at those who don't like them and then - cowardly, in my opinion - never stepping up to defend or support his statements when called on them. As I've said... other columnists I read articles by here will actually join in the discussion about them, answer questions and respond to remarks. Not Aioshi. He publishes his "statement", then scurries off to the shadows, to hide until he's ready to type up his next gushing letter to his beloved F2P market.

    He's like the typical hyper-fanboy of "enter MMO here". Only Aioshi does it for an entire category of games. The pattern's the same... F2P are wonderful, and he takes pot-shots at any who disagrees. As has been said, his articles bring very little of value. It's just his own mono-maniacal ramblings where he gets to publicly gush over how much he loves F2P. Plenty of rabid fans do the same thing here all the time, across myriad games... only they don't have a featured blog highlighting it.



     

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."
    - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • bigdaddysfebigdaddysfe Member Posts: 89
    Originally posted by Superman0X


    F2P is the big news of 2008....
    Hybrids are the big news of 2009.  P2P lost... but so did F2P. The real winner is the Hybrid games that incorporate both options.
    DDO is a great example of a Hybrid. This is what everyone is going to have to compete with, and this is what is going to change the market. Giving the customer the options to choose how they want to play... and pay. This is all about customer service (giving the customer what they want).
    Going forward, every game has to consider this,and if they want to do well, they will offer as many options as they can... because that is what will be needed to get the customers. People are finally gettting smart, and voting with thier money. This is why F2P did so well... because people didnt have to pay, unless they felt it was justified. P2P was full of people who were not satisfied with thier monthly fee, and who voted with their money to make F2P sucessful....
    The Hybrid business models take advantage of this, and also offer good value for thier dollar to those that were not unsatisfied with monthly fees... they offer the best of both worlds, and are coming soon to a game near you....

    Can we expect your company to push that down our throats as well?

     

    The one main divider between F2P and P2P for me will always be the customer service. If I  am potentially going to pay 2, 3 ,4 or more times a regular 15 dollar P2P subscription fee, I would like any problems I have to be solved in a timely manner with easy access to help. Anyone who has played some of the first gen F2P games and even later ones can attest that if you have a problem, you are more or less fucked. You may have to wait months to get your issue resolved if at all. Maple Story was the prime example of this. Almost all F2P games are routed to an ambiguous "help desk" e-mail where you will get some sort of response when they feel like it. If you are not satisfied with that, they really could care less. In game support is pretty much unheard of in these games unless you befriend a GM that practices cronyism. You are really in a bind if you have an issue with a GM or a particular employee that works at that company. If you send the e-mail to the help desk, there is a chance that the person you are complaining about will read it and your e-mail will never be received by the people you intend to read it. Worse yet there may be some sort of retaliation for speaking out. I have seen firsthand people being affected by unprofessional GM's with an axe to grind, it is nearly impossible to get help when that occurs and the couple people I knew that were affected like that quit the game rather than try to deal with the abuse and problems it caused. Your only other option is to find the company's phone number which 9 times out of 10 is unlisted(why don't they want to talk to their paying customers) to voice your concern. Of course you will usually get told to send it to the e-mail and get hung up on unless you threaten them with action in which case you are sent to their lawyer instead of anyone that can actually help you in game. At some point for people that play these games, it becomes too much of a hassle to have to fight for what you have paid for each time. I have seen many leave the F2P model entirely because of this issue.

    I find it ironic that this person talks about customer service because that is probably the main thing lacking in F2P games. Many of these companies have at least a decent profit margin with low costs and licensing fees. Instead of reinvesting the money into better customer service, we see them scooping up more and more game licenses, spend money on ads, pretty much everything of what should be the core of the business, pleasing the customer. I always judge a game by not how fun it is when everything is right, but how the company acts and how you get helped when things go wrong, because there is a 99% chance that at some point during your playtime, you will need some sort of outside assistance and a small percent that something major has happened like a wipe, rollback, being hacked. In this area F2P games just do not measure up. I would rather have a company with 1-2 games that servcies them right than some joke comapny with 12-15 games that doesn't service them for shit.

    Some of these companies have put systems in where you have more access to help, but it is still limited. IGG comes to mind with their customer service chat but even that is only a means to gather information that is sent to the service department. It may still take weeks to get help. Right now the F2P's that I see doing the best are ones that are serviced by P2P or most "western" companies that aren't merely license jockeys. If you have problems in DDO or  Free Realms  there are many options available to you to get the help you need. I don't know of one Asian or licensed F2P game where you can pick up the phone and get customer support. Granted there are some P2P games that don't offer this either but there are quite a few examples of ones that do (NCSoft, Sony, Blizzard, Cryptic, Square Enix, etc.)  

    Personally I have always been in favor of offering paying customers a higher level of service in F2P games. If you are paying enough for 3-4 regular customers, you should be able to receive a level of service that acknowledges that. There should be a minimum amount that you spend each month(15,20,25 dollars) that allows you access to phone support, in game support, and expeditied service for whatever issue you are having. I have spoken to employees at several F2P comapnies about adding a level of premium customer service for paying customers and they have always been strongly against it. They contend that it is unfair to offer higher quality service to one group of people and not everyone, yet they have no problem rolling some new advantage out in the cash shop every week. It is this hypocrisy that shows one of the many reason why most MMO players have disdain for F2P games. Hybrid models will continue the trend and more than likely make matters worse. Now they can offer the same bad service that they always did but this time they are getting at least some guaranteed money from it each month plus whatever you are spending in the CS on top of that. 

    For F2P 's to gain any kind of respectibilty in the Western MMO markets, they need to start showing that they respect us first. MOst of these MMO's have a reputation of being ramshackle, low quality, thrown together crap run by shady foreign comapnies. Not much has been done to disprove many of these negative sterotypes. As a player the one thing I would argue against is that these comapnies aren't low class. No, most of them are getting rich as sin off these game, it's just that the end user hardly ever sees the benefits of this. These comapnies will make money hand-over-fist and then send it back to the country that their headquarters is based out of or use it for other things. We are left with the same game and the same service and a list of excuses to why it can't be changed. After giving the F2P market a fair shake with my time and money, it is something I will never go back to. If you play for free you will never get the full experience and if you pay, you will just get upset when a problem comes along and you recieve no help for it. Of course there are exceptions to these rules and you will have people that come out the woodwork saying "Well I played X F2P and had all the same things a paying person had), but most involve playing 16+ hours a day, running multiple computers, spending most of your time merchanting, using bots or hacks, scamming, taking other peoples accounts, sell in game money for game cards, or something else that is a huge time sink or involves breaking the rules. 

    The TL:DR version is that F2P games will not get to the level of P2P games in many people's eyes unless they improve many of their features, the most important to me being direct customer service.

    Any F2P pundit that cannot at the very least acknowledge that fact is suffering from denial themselves. 

     

     

           

     

     

  • KokushibyouKokushibyou Member UncommonPosts: 230
    Originally posted by bigdaddysfe


    I have seen firsthand people being affected by unprofessional GM's with an axe to grind, it is nearly impossible to get help when that occurs and the couple people I knew that were affected like that quit the game rather than try to deal with the abuse and problems it caused.



     

    In all fairness, this is not unique to F2P; early on Eve had a very similar problem.

  • AeroangelAeroangel Member UncommonPosts: 498
    Originally posted by bigdaddysfe

    Originally posted by Superman0X


    F2P is the big news of 2008....
    Hybrids are the big news of 2009.  P2P lost... but so did F2P. The real winner is the Hybrid games that incorporate both options.
    DDO is a great example of a Hybrid. This is what everyone is going to have to compete with, and this is what is going to change the market. Giving the customer the options to choose how they want to play... and pay. This is all about customer service (giving the customer what they want).
    Going forward, every game has to consider this,and if they want to do well, they will offer as many options as they can... because that is what will be needed to get the customers. People are finally gettting smart, and voting with thier money. This is why F2P did so well... because people didnt have to pay, unless they felt it was justified. P2P was full of people who were not satisfied with thier monthly fee, and who voted with their money to make F2P sucessful....
    The Hybrid business models take advantage of this, and also offer good value for thier dollar to those that were not unsatisfied with monthly fees... they offer the best of both worlds, and are coming soon to a game near you....

    Can we expect your company to push that down our throats as well?

     

    The one main divider between F2P and P2P for me will always be the customer service. If I  am potentially going to pay 2, 3 ,4 or more times a regular 15 dollar P2P subscription fee, I would like any problems I have to be solved in a timely manner with easy access to help.....

    .....

    The TL:DR version is that F2P games will not get to the level of P2P games in many people's eyes unless they improve many of their features, the most important to me being direct customer service.

    Any F2P pundit that cannot at the very least acknowledge that fact is suffering from denial themselves. 

     

     

           

     

     

    I don't really have the money for a subscription fee every month at the moment or I'm just tired of it, and even when I did pay monthly for games I always browsed around to see what was available F2P. It's gotten a lot better since the past couple years when I was browsing around. I recently found two F2P games that I really like and would spend money on. 

     

     

    Anyway @ your post. I didn't care for Maple Story that much anyway, but that was one of the only circumstances I needed support for a game and I was very dissatisfied by the results. I generally don't seem to need customer support (more so in  P2P games) I guess because if something goes wrong in a F2P and I haven't spent any money I don't care :P but anyway where was I... oh yeah. Well as the person you quoted apparently DDO has options to pay and you get better service or whatever (not sure haven't played) I remember I tried a game called Dofus a while back and pretty sure it's model was free to play for some areas of the game, and if you paid a small monthly fee you got access to better customer support, more features and rewards, whatever. 

     

    I don't know I guess I'm sick of feeling like I'm tied into a contract if I want to play an MMO if that makes any sense. I really like some of these models where if you pay a monthly fee or purchase some things you get better service and more perks, but you have the option to not pay and get a little less. And if micro transactions don't give unfair advantages in PvP or whatnot I'm all for it. Micro transactions are already becoming the norm for most MMOs and for many console/pc games (like buying extra maps for a shooter for example).

     

    Heck WoW it's becoming more and more of a subscription game with a cash shop. Instead of EXP potions you have "refer-a-friend" and now instead of giving in game pets for special events and stuff, you can just go online and buy your little pet for 10 dollars or whatever. And I know plenty of other subscription games have done or are doing the same thing. For myself and others I think it would be better if most MMO's had a "free option" for the online play, but you could get better service, more items, or whatnot if you paid a monthly fee or bought things from the game's cash shop. Not saying that there shouldn't be decent support for the player even if they don't pay (there should) especially if you have to buy the box or whatever.

     

    Personally if I like a game I am playing it and it has a cash shop or an *option* to pay a fee, I will buy things or will sign up for the subscription mostly to show my support for the game and somewhat to get the additional perks. And the nice thing is if I don't have the money a while I don't have to pay to get some enjoyment from that particular game. 

     

    I think if executed properly it could be just fine. Like let's say a developer made this awesome MMO that cost a ton to make, they could sell the game and make box sales -and/or-  have it available to download for free, but offer some 'beginners package' let's say hypothetically that was 60 dollars and for that you received a special in game guide book, increased EXP/rep for a like a month, an exclusive mount and pet, exclusive apparel items, and 3 months of better than average quality service (or however they would market it). I think that would be appealing enough for most people to buy. And then after that they could offer for you to play online for free, but there could be a cash shop where you could buy non essential items ( if there were essential items I think it would have to be possible to sell them for in game currency - although not sure how that would effect the economy) and let's say if you purchase more than $10 worth of stuff in a month you get VIP status or something like that, and with that you get 24/7 support and whatever crap you paid 10 dollars for. To keep people paying just think of new appealing content that people will want to buy. 

     

    --------------------------
    Playing:
    FFXIV, TERA, LoL, and HoTS
    My Rig:
    GPU: GeForce GTX 770, CPU: i7-4790K, Memory: 16 GB RAM

  • bigdaddysfebigdaddysfe Member Posts: 89

    Nothing is wrong with playing a F2P game if your sole intention is for a time killer. There are many fun F2P games that span all genres. If you have the self control to play there and not spend anything, you are getting the best of both worlds from a F2P game. However, you have already stated that you have found 2 games you like enough to now want to pay money into. So after that, you can no longer say that you will not get upset if you get a horrible customer service experience because you will then have tangible monetary loss. Which of course is what the point of a F2P game is, to get you in and then get as much money out of you before you quit.

     

    As for the person that mentioned the GM situation that occurs in P2P games, of course it happens. I myself played AoC during the infamous "GM Cyber" incident. But for every P2P example, I can give you 10 F2P examples. In fact on this very board you will find several incidences including a in depth account of GM abuse and negligence by Game Masters at Aeria Games:

    www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/263057/page/1

     

    I was matching up industry vs industry using Maple Story as the main example since it is the most "well known" of the F2P games. I am just pointing out in general P2P games are run a little more professional and have a better customer service network than F2P games. F2P games that are not part of a P2P network (for example Free Realms/Sony) need to create that framework to bring validity to a market that many people are leery of. 

    I understand your feelings about being locked in a "contract" with P2P games. It is true if you play brand new MMO's, you are likely paying 50-65 dollars before you have had a chance to even fully know what the game is about. That is a bit of an entry point just to find the game sucks. Outside of that though, there are many P2P games where you can just pay the monthly fee and not even worry about the box. You pay 15 dollars and if you don't like it, you can unsubscribe until you feel like playing again. It's more than free obviously, but not by much. I prefer it to most F2P games that give you content once every 2-3 months with 2092190812 cash shop updates inbetween.

    I don't want to get too far off the main point but as a person who has played many F2Ps over the course of nearly 4 years, I can safley say that the one negative thing that all those games had in common was the incredibly poor customer service(if you got any at all) you recieved if there was a problem. Putting aside the GM unpressionalsm, the cronyism, the rampant hacking/botting, the horrible communities, that was the one thing that was a dealbreaker for me and is the main reason I left that market for good to only play well maintained P2P games. Many others have too. It's not like F2P will ever be dead or that these comapnies won't continue to import and license games, it's that there will always be a wall in the Western market until they decide to address these issues.

     

     

     

     

  • AeroangelAeroangel Member UncommonPosts: 498

    I'm not sure why you think my sole intention of playing a F2P MMORPG is for a time killer? I play for entertainment and enjoying the genre. But anyway I was serious about the Maple Story incident, I forgot my unique ID or whatever, and it took a while to find some kind of support and  they basically told me there was nothing they could do about it, and I'm pretty sure they could have, but anyway. If I do spend money on the games I'm playing and don't receive decent customer service if I need it I would be upset, and if that happens you'll be the first to know, but I'm not expecting it to happen. 

     

    And what about games like Guild Wars? How is it that they can sell you a game and you not have to pay a subscription fee every month but you still get quality servers to play on, content updates, and quality customer service? And most of the online console and PC games that give you servers to play on, but don't require you to spend money every month. I dunno I personally would be happier if more MMOs had a model where you pay for the game (or not) and buy things for the game, but you can still play without spending a certain amount every month, and it would probably attract more people to the genre. Not sure if that is good or bad, but I digress. 

     

    I guess my point is with so many subscription based games almost having like a cash shop model why not just go that route? If the game is good enough, and they give you enough incentive to spend money and it doesn't ruin game play for everyone people will spend money on the game. Personally I think it's pretty neat that if you like the game enough you can spend money on it and in turn receive extra perks, more content, better service, etc.  But I can see why people don't like this model as well. Either way it will be a nice change if F2P games can have more quality, better customer service, etc.  

    --------------------------
    Playing:
    FFXIV, TERA, LoL, and HoTS
    My Rig:
    GPU: GeForce GTX 770, CPU: i7-4790K, Memory: 16 GB RAM

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