TL:DR: As long as they make the low and mid level game as interesting and involved as FFXI's, I don't care if it takes a year to reach level cap.
For the long version...
Well said, and I agree. I hope they keep that sense of "journey" intact with FFXIV as well. Also, I'm in the same boat as you with FFXI... I played since the US launch on PC and it took me about 3 years to get my first 75. Why? Well, for one I had to start over, but still... I wasn't in a hurry. There was so much to do at every level, so many different goals to complete along the way...
For example... get subjob, get chocobo license, get Khazam Key, unlock my first advanced job (which was Samurai, incidentally), get my complete RSE set, upgrade my mog safe, get Rank 5 and my airship pass, eventually work toward Rank 10, etc. etc. etc. All but Rank 10 was achieved *well* before level 75, every one of them was a milestone, and not a single one of them (well, except maybe subjobs and Khazam key if you were lucky with drops) was something you could "race through". FFXI makes everything that's meaningful or beneficial to your character an adventure - nothing is handed to you.
When you needed help from friends to accomplish many of those tasks, or you were all helping each other... then that's where the community comes together. Unfortunately, in my experience, the community's degraded a bit over the past couple years, as more and more soloable content has been added, removing the need for groups and cooperation as much. But at one time, FFXI's community was, in my opinion, second only to Matrix Online for a couple months after its launch (freaking brilliant community that game had.. such a waste).
And then, there's how engrossing they made it. FFXI is, at its core, a Final Fantasy title put online instead of the FF theme shoe-horned into the typical MMO mold. All the depth of characters, storylines, plot twists, etc. etc. The layers upon layers of details left for players to figure out. It's a very cinematic game that puts your character right in the middle of the action - makes you *part* of the story, not merely a bystander. I'd chuckle when people were raving about how Blizzard had innovated the MMO genre by adding in-game cut-scenes with Lich King... FFXI had been doing that since day one, over 7 years ago now.
Here's a sample... (spoiler warning). This is a recording covering cut-scenes from Wings of The Goddess. I'm not sure which Nation's storyline this is for... I know I've never seen it (yay spoilers :-p)... But it shows just a small sample of how cinematic the game is. For those unfamiliar with FFXI, Karinastar in the video is the player's character.
www.youtube.com/watch After increasing the level cap from 50 to 75 with their first expansion, Rise of The Zilart, SE never again raised the level cap. And they didn't only add on to the end game. They added new content across almost all levels with each update, and players could get into doing "raid like" content as early as level 20 with BCNMs. There was simply *so much to do*, and still is, that the journey *did* matter. Even if you hardly ever did quests, the game just has an incredible amount of things a player can choose to do.
But then... maybe that's just it. By comparison... so many newer MMOs are so anemic and underwhelming and, frankly, lazy in their low and mid-end game, that I can understand why people aren't interested in it; whey they're in that hurry to get to end game... End game in many newer MMOs is where all the challenging and "meaningful" content is. FFXI has such content available starting at around level 20 and adds progressively more as you go up.
So yeah... I guess if you want people to pay more attention to the journey.. then you have to make it interesting and meaningful. Stop putting all the "good stuff" at the top end, and give people more to work toward along the way. Of course, you'll have your players who *insist* that it's "all about the end game" because that's become totally ingrained in their mind... but there's plenty of MMOs for them to choose from that facilitate that just fine. I don't think it would kill anyone to have another MMO whose focus is as much on the low and mid level game as it is on end game. Who knows... some of the "end game only" people might actually find it a nice change of pace.
Brilliant post. I'm in the same boat as you. FFXI was my first MMO. I have played other MMO's (WoW, AoC, WAR, AION, LOTR, etc) and nothing compares. Though I really enjoy WoW for the first two years of its release, I've grown a visceral disdain for it that has been increasing with each expansion.
I can't wait till FFXIV. I wish my son was old enough to play with me. He's only one and a half.
Hopefully since FFXIV won't have character levels people won't even notice they are experiencing the journey and not rushing to "end-game", but I'm sure there will be those that expect to max out their skills in a month.
I really think that FFXIV will have character levels very similar to FFXI. For example, a Pugilist with max level combat arms would be equivalent to having a 75 Monk.
I think the "leveling-up" of weapons as a measure of your character level is a Character Level system by any other name. To be quite frank, the closer FFXIV is to FFXI will make me a very happy camper for a very long time.
I don't care about leveling speed as long as there's content to cover it, be that in variety or unpredictability of gameplay to level up, and that levels don't dictate who you may hang out with. My goals are usually set based on what there is to enjoy NOW, not on what there will be 10 levels from now.
With a high leveling curve that takes long to reach the cap, if you play more than your friends, you'll never be able to play along with your main character if there's nothing in the game to make it viable.
I would prefer to see leveling slow. 15+ days played for the fastest hardcore players and 60+ days played for the average casual player. But the problems of today's games go beyond super fast easy leveling. The challenge and thought has been taken out of most mmo's before reaching endgame. It is sad how fast leveling is in all new games. In games like Vanguard, WoW etc one can reach max (before level raises) in less than 5 days played without paying much attention. But it is not only the speed or lack of effort needed to achieve max level that needs to be changed but the challenge. It seems all MMOs have virtually no challenge, before the endgame, as they are dumbed down for the whiny forum players who lack patience and want a game without thought or challenge. Endgame and raids should not be the only place where there is a challenge. I would love to see group and raid mobs throughout the leveling curve that are not beatable by most if not all players. But more than that I would love to see player power greatly diminished on average mobs forcing players to pay attention more and develop better skills to level effectively.
You know why I think the leveling design of FFXI was perfect!? Because there were built-in, meaningful "roadblocks." First and foremost, you could NOT under any circumstances SOLO to lvl 75. Maybe you could as BLM or BST, but it would take you three to four times as long.
More importantly, you had to get your Chocobo license which took like 12 hours of RL time. You had to get your Kazam key, which required traveling to all three nation areas and getting lucky on the key drops. You had to get Rank 5 for the Airship pass. You wanted to stop and get your AF gear, and each quest for each piece was rewarding, memorable, and a challenge.
Compare that to WoW where you could solo to 80 by just doing quests from zone to zone with no obstacles along the way. Or worse yet, in Aion, just grinding on mobs from zone to zone.
FFXI was PERFECT. It was perfect in requiring groups, and the roadblocks were things you couldn't wait to experience. The "roadblocks" were the most memorable parts of FFXI.
Who here didn't love leveling in the dunes for the 15th time? lol... Sarcasm aside, I know I did.
Edit: It was also perfect in requiring a separate quest to go from 50 - 75. If i remember correctly (being 3 years removed from FFXI), they were called Genkais?
Edit: Random thought, I LOVED the built in translater. I had many Japanese groups late at night. Had a very memorable translated conversation about the merits of "The Last Samurai" and what Japanese players thought about the movie.
I had a bit of an epiphony reading through the posts here.
Imagine your starter town. Exiting from the east of the starter town offers mobs that will take 5-6 players to take down. These mobs(per appropriate skill or rank level) offer the best "skill exp" in the area. They also have a higher chance of dropping quality loot.
Now imagine, if you left the starter town from the west, the mobs here could be soloed with some difficulty, duo'ed with still a challenge and trio'ed with pretty easy, The exp you would receive may be is only worth half the amount no matter if you solo, duo, or trio and roughly it will take the same time as the full group kills theirs. Note that it takes longer with one guy vs. 3. 3 people could take it down the same spead as the party of 6. Also the soloer-duo-trio has a smaller chance of dropping quality loot.
The quality loot % increases based on how many are in the group. So the party of 6 kills x mob and receives 200 exp, while the party of 1-3 kills y mob and receives 100 exp.
I think this would solve the solo vs group argument and cover any issues in as far as leveling. Leave the missions and big "roadblocks" as someone said above the way they are. "Sorry you can level in a duo or solo if you wish, but you will need others to progress the story of the game!" It should almost be SE's motto!
anyway, I personally think that leveling shouldn't exist in MMORPGs. the journey is in the community interaction, leveling is a single player experience. im not completely against leveling in MMORPGs (i've enjoyed leveling in MMORPGs, lots), but I still think it is more of a fault rather then an advantage.
is leveling EVER the heart of a MMORPG? to me it purposely CREATES barriers between players, BARRIERS THAT SHOULDN'T EXIST ON A GENRE BASED ON COMMUNITY. I agree with a journey, I agree with progression, but not in the form of leveling. MMORPGs need to be about balance between players while still having a type of progression, I personally believe that progression should be within the community the most and secondly within a single player... and the single player progression should CHANGE gameplay rather then give them an obvious advantage.
I prefer a nice steady leveling curve, IE World of Warcraft... maybe a little harder. Not those crap Korean grinders where you need say, 400k to level and next level it jumps to 1.4million.
As long as it's easier to level and more solo friendly than FF11 then I'll love this game.
Comments
Slow leveling, but not due to grind... just so ppl have time to experience the game and not the race to end.
I am so tired of seeing everyone and their cousins with 10 top level chars in todays games.
Brilliant post. I'm in the same boat as you. FFXI was my first MMO. I have played other MMO's (WoW, AoC, WAR, AION, LOTR, etc) and nothing compares. Though I really enjoy WoW for the first two years of its release, I've grown a visceral disdain for it that has been increasing with each expansion.
I can't wait till FFXIV. I wish my son was old enough to play with me. He's only one and a half.
I really think that FFXIV will have character levels very similar to FFXI. For example, a Pugilist with max level combat arms would be equivalent to having a 75 Monk.
I think the "leveling-up" of weapons as a measure of your character level is a Character Level system by any other name. To be quite frank, the closer FFXIV is to FFXI will make me a very happy camper for a very long time.
I don't care about leveling speed as long as there's content to cover it, be that in variety or unpredictability of gameplay to level up, and that levels don't dictate who you may hang out with. My goals are usually set based on what there is to enjoy NOW, not on what there will be 10 levels from now.
With a high leveling curve that takes long to reach the cap, if you play more than your friends, you'll never be able to play along with your main character if there's nothing in the game to make it viable.
You know why I think the leveling design of FFXI was perfect!? Because there were built-in, meaningful "roadblocks." First and foremost, you could NOT under any circumstances SOLO to lvl 75. Maybe you could as BLM or BST, but it would take you three to four times as long.
More importantly, you had to get your Chocobo license which took like 12 hours of RL time. You had to get your Kazam key, which required traveling to all three nation areas and getting lucky on the key drops. You had to get Rank 5 for the Airship pass. You wanted to stop and get your AF gear, and each quest for each piece was rewarding, memorable, and a challenge.
Compare that to WoW where you could solo to 80 by just doing quests from zone to zone with no obstacles along the way. Or worse yet, in Aion, just grinding on mobs from zone to zone.
FFXI was PERFECT. It was perfect in requiring groups, and the roadblocks were things you couldn't wait to experience. The "roadblocks" were the most memorable parts of FFXI.
Who here didn't love leveling in the dunes for the 15th time? lol... Sarcasm aside, I know I did.
Edit: It was also perfect in requiring a separate quest to go from 50 - 75. If i remember correctly (being 3 years removed from FFXI), they were called Genkais?
Edit: Random thought, I LOVED the built in translater. I had many Japanese groups late at night. Had a very memorable translated conversation about the merits of "The Last Samurai" and what Japanese players thought about the movie.
I had a bit of an epiphony reading through the posts here.
Imagine your starter town. Exiting from the east of the starter town offers mobs that will take 5-6 players to take down. These mobs(per appropriate skill or rank level) offer the best "skill exp" in the area. They also have a higher chance of dropping quality loot.
Now imagine, if you left the starter town from the west, the mobs here could be soloed with some difficulty, duo'ed with still a challenge and trio'ed with pretty easy, The exp you would receive may be is only worth half the amount no matter if you solo, duo, or trio and roughly it will take the same time as the full group kills theirs. Note that it takes longer with one guy vs. 3. 3 people could take it down the same spead as the party of 6. Also the soloer-duo-trio has a smaller chance of dropping quality loot.
The quality loot % increases based on how many are in the group. So the party of 6 kills x mob and receives 200 exp, while the party of 1-3 kills y mob and receives 100 exp.
I think this would solve the solo vs group argument and cover any issues in as far as leveling. Leave the missions and big "roadblocks" as someone said above the way they are. "Sorry you can level in a duo or solo if you wish, but you will need others to progress the story of the game!" It should almost be SE's motto!
im sorry but im confused...
do people actually realise that there is no leveling in this game?
or am i missing something?
anyway, I personally think that leveling shouldn't exist in MMORPGs. the journey is in the community interaction, leveling is a single player experience. im not completely against leveling in MMORPGs (i've enjoyed leveling in MMORPGs, lots), but I still think it is more of a fault rather then an advantage.
is leveling EVER the heart of a MMORPG? to me it purposely CREATES barriers between players, BARRIERS THAT SHOULDN'T EXIST ON A GENRE BASED ON COMMUNITY. I agree with a journey, I agree with progression, but not in the form of leveling. MMORPGs need to be about balance between players while still having a type of progression, I personally believe that progression should be within the community the most and secondly within a single player... and the single player progression should CHANGE gameplay rather then give them an obvious advantage.
I like a little stuff in the beginning to give me my barrings. I hate that feeling of I donno what to do here feeling you get in older games and F2P.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
I prefer a nice steady leveling curve, IE World of Warcraft... maybe a little harder. Not those crap Korean grinders where you need say, 400k to level and next level it jumps to 1.4million.
As long as it's easier to level and more solo friendly than FF11 then I'll love this game.