FOTM - 1 Man Clans and War Dec'ing

M1sf1t · December 2009

So the new FOTM is a 1 man clan used to grief. This usually involves players who transferred from the EU severs who are ahead of other players on the NA servers in skill points but sometimes its US players. In some cases these people are also exploiters who move about using teleport hacks from NPC city to NPC city quickly. What they do is they wait for people to start banking who are in a clan. As soon as they see someone banking in gear they auto-magically declare war and proceed to gank said person. This is done to avoid the alignment system penalties, avoid npc towers zapping in NPC cities and avoid legitimate pvping (aka going out in the wild to actually hunt other players or being involved in legitimate clan warfare). These actions also negatively effects and hurts recruiting efforts of smaller clans greater then the larger alliance based clans who can have their members hunting and living in their cities. These smaller clans primarily make their homes out of NPC cities since most of the hamlets and player cities are already taken over by large power blocs of clan alliances.

The war dec and clan options in the game seriously need to be revamped so that:

1.) It take 10 or more people to form a actual clan plus some gold, say 1,000 gold.

2.) It takes 10,000 gold to war dec and 2,000 to sustain said war per week.

3.) A 1 day countdown period before the actual war dec is enacted along with a 1 day cool down before another can be declared.

4.) Any healing, buffing, debuffing by neutrals should automatically flag them as hostiles and thus impose any alignment drops if any so you don't have some guy with 2 accounts, one to act as a buff/debuff/healing bot and the other to gank.

Darkfall has a lot of elements that are nice and fun but the devs seriously need to take a hint from successful companies like CCP and actually address issues that undermine the core values of the pvp game play in DF:O so that those looking to pvp without consequences are stopped in their tracks. As it stands being in any clan gets you instant war dec'd and before you know it ganked if you are at a bank in a NPC city. As it stands it is a serious joke to see all those war decs every day by these one man clans. Hell I give Red's more respect then this morons because Reds actually are willing to make a sacrifice in alignment to engage in PVP. Today I had 3 single 1 man clans war dec my clan/alliance because I was in a remote city banking and these guys where just hanging out waiting for players to start banking. In 2 of these situations I lost loot (crappy stuff I could easily get again) and the 3rd I banked quickly enough that my corpse had nothing for the exploiter to loot.

Edit: Allowing Euro server players to transfer over to the US server was another big mistake as well but that is another can of worms.

daarco · December 2009

I really agree that you would need 10 people to create a clan. One person is not a clan!

But it beeing EU players sounds a bit naive to believe. There have been two months since the Transfer, most people have long ago passed the noob stage : )

Blindchance · December 2009

They should just add a bloody timer to war declaration, similar one like with sieges.

Agricola1 · December 2009

1.) It take 10 or more people to form a actual clan plus some gold, say 1,000 gold.

I could go with this.

2.) It takes 10,000 gold to war dec and 2,000 to sustain said war per week.

Sorry this isn't EVE.

3.) A 1 day countdown period before the actual war dec is enacted along with a 1 day cool down before another can be declared.

Sorry, bit too carebear for me.

4.) Any healing, buffing, debuffing by neutrals should automatically flag them as hostiles and thus impose any alignment drops if any so you don't have some guy with 2 accounts, one to act as a buff/debuff/healing bot and the other to gank.

Again, just too carebear for me to tolerate.

I left EVE because they nerfed wardecs because carebears that couldn't handle combat cried when they were attacked in empire. I don't want to see the same happen to DFO, if you want to carebear in saftey and then PvP when you want to with a gimped war dec system then take youe pick of MMORPGs, just leave us DFO please. Anyway why don't you join a decent clan? Surely that's the answer? Asking AV to change the mechanics because one guy is riding you like a two dollar whore is just weak, seriously!

bopilop · December 2009

Originally posted by Agricola1
4.) Any healing, buffing, debuffing by neutrals should automatically flag them as hostiles and thus impose any alignment drops if any so you don't have some guy with 2 accounts, one to act as a buff/debuff/healing bot and the other to gank.

Again, just too carebear for me to tolerate.

I left EVE because they nerfed wardecs because carebears that couldn't handle combat cried when they were attacked in empire. I don't want to see the same happen to DFO, if you want to carebear in saftey and then PvP when you want to with a gimped war dec system then take youe pick of MMORPGs, just leave us DFO please. Anyway why don't you join a decent clan? Surely that's the answer? Asking AV to change the mechanics because one guy is riding you like a two dollar whore is just weak, seriously!
the carebear needs an exploit
any way you can exploit.... i guess the exploit mantality hasn't left the players of the game and the makers haven't fixed them.
i left the game because of all the exploits. with no fixes.

Sandblox · December 2009

Nice post and I agree with much of it. I am in NEW and there are people who are one man clans and use that to declare war on NEW. I also see it in the starter towns, all in all it is a lame mechanic.

As for making things carebear? I do not see it. Abusing weak game mechanics so you can grief or bottom feed is not hard or cool, it is weak. A clan should take multiple people to create, 10 sounds fine to me and costing some gold to wage war makes sense to me...I mean your waging war...it costs money to war other people...this would make waging war mean something rather then some asshat who is bored at the top going off to abuse poorly designed mechanics to grief people.

The cool down I do not think is needed though, once war is declared then it is is game on.

Annwyn · December 2009

I don't like none of the ideas.

Are 1-man clan griefers annoying? Yes. Has there been any clans that started with 1 member only? Yes. Why punish them?

If you hate 1-man clans, simply say that attacking another player in the city will make you go red regardless of wether you are at war or not with said targetted player.

Fixed.

10-man clans? Hell No. There's already quite a few clans with less than 10 members which are often groups or craftors, small groups of friends, etc.

Nizur · December 2009

1.) It take 10 or more people to form a actual clan plus some gold, say 1,000 gold.

I agree that in order to be a clan you need to have more than 1 member. 5 or 10 would work.

2.) It takes 10,000 gold to war dec and 2,000 to sustain said war per week.

I don't know about this one. The initial cost to declare war sounds high. There's also already an inherent cost to sustained war with others: replacing gear you've lost while in battle.

3.) A 1 day countdown period before the actual war dec is enacted along with a 1 day cool down before another can be declared.

I don't know about this one either. 1 day is too long.

4.) Any healing, buffing, debuffing by neutrals should automatically flag them as hostiles and thus impose any alignment drops if any so you don't have some guy with 2 accounts, one to act as a buff/debuff/healing bot and the other to gank.

This one makes sense to me. Aiding one side or the other should flag you as at war, at least for a little bit.

xpiher · December 2009

Originally posted by Blindchance

They should just add a bloody timer to war declaration, similar one like with sieges.

Why?

ANd this isn't anything new btw. Make war decs cost money, have an upkeep cost, and remove the limit on them. Problem solved.

thinktank001 · December 2009

Originally posted by Agricola1

1.) It take 10 or more people to form a actual clan plus some gold, say 1,000 gold.
I could go with this.
2.) It takes 10,000 gold to war dec and 2,000 to sustain said war per week.
Sorry this isn't EVE.
3.) A 1 day countdown period before the actual war dec is enacted along with a 1 day cool down before another can be declared.
Sorry, bit too carebear for me.
There is nothing carebear about the 1 day cooldown. It allows for diplomacy to take place, time for clans to gather comrades, and time for people to decide tactics.
4.) Any healing, buffing, debuffing by neutrals should automatically flag them as hostiles and thus impose any alignment drops if any so you don't have some guy with 2 accounts, one to act as a buff/debuff/healing bot and the other to gank.

Again, just too carebear for me to tolerate.
What is carebear about being able to kill your enemies allies free of penalty? It is not carebear, but just plain common sense that a friend of an enemy is your enemy.

Agricola1 · December 2009

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Agricola1

1.) It take 10 or more people to form a actual clan plus some gold, say 1,000 gold.
I could go with this.
2.) It takes 10,000 gold to war dec and 2,000 to sustain said war per week.
Sorry this isn't EVE.
3.) A 1 day countdown period before the actual war dec is enacted along with a 1 day cool down before another can be declared.
Sorry, bit too carebear for me.
There is nothing carebear about the 1 day cooldown. It allows for diplomacy to take place, time for clans to gather comrades, and time for people to decide tactics.
4.) Any healing, buffing, debuffing by neutrals should automatically flag them as hostiles and thus impose any alignment drops if any so you don't have some guy with 2 accounts, one to act as a buff/debuff/healing bot and the other to gank.

Again, just too carebear for me to tolerate.
What is carebear about being able to kill your enemies allies free of penalty? It is not carebear, but just plain common sense that a friend of an enemy is your enemy.

I'll tell you what I consider carebear, having a one day timer before war commences. It allows for people to decide tactics such as running away and hiding, next you'll be asking for AV to put in a mechanic that means anyone wishing to raid a city or hamlet must request to do so one day in advance with a timer before they can attack. Pretty ridiculous in my opinion and only something that a clan that cannot defend itself would do, as crying to the DEVs is their last line of defence. You disagree? Then why have it if you are unless you just can't handle defeat? I get raped in city raids on a regular basis but don't come crying asking for AV to change the mechanics so I can flee with my belongings until the fighting is over! I paid to play DFO, not some watered down turd that caters to carebears that can't handle the fact they get outmanouvered by the enemy.

OK I'll give you the last one, trouble is this will just lead to more whining because some other prick starts abusing the system to waste newbies at starter citys or jack you for your gear. I think the trouble is the alignment system itself, it's there to guard against tossers but those tossers still abuse it like they would any system. I'm not sure what the answer would be, the current alignment system has its flaws but I can live with them. Best thing you can do is kill those third partys, take the alignment hit (if any) and farm it back after the battle? Otherwise what you suggest is just adding another set of rules easily abused by griefers on top of the alignment system already in existance.

Kyleran · December 2009

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Agricola1

1.) It take 10 or more people to form a actual clan plus some gold, say 1,000 gold.
I could go with this.
2.) It takes 10,000 gold to war dec and 2,000 to sustain said war per week.
Sorry this isn't EVE.
3.) A 1 day countdown period before the actual war dec is enacted along with a 1 day cool down before another can be declared.
Sorry, bit too carebear for me.
There is nothing carebear about the 1 day cooldown. It allows for diplomacy to take place, time for clans to gather comrades, and time for people to decide tactics.
4.) Any healing, buffing, debuffing by neutrals should automatically flag them as hostiles and thus impose any alignment drops if any so you don't have some guy with 2 accounts, one to act as a buff/debuff/healing bot and the other to gank.

Again, just too carebear for me to tolerate.
What is carebear about being able to kill your enemies allies free of penalty? It is not carebear, but just plain common sense that a friend of an enemy is your enemy.

I'll tell you what I consider carebear, having a one day timer before war commences. It allows for people to decide tactics such as running away and hiding, next you'll be asking for AV to put in a mechanic that means anyone wishing to raid a city or hamlet must request to do so one day in advance with a timer before they can attack. Pretty ridiculous in my opinion and only something that a clan that cannot defend itself would do, as crying to the DEVs is their last line of defence. You disagree? Then why have it if you are unless you just can't handle defeat? I get raped in city raids on a regular basis but don't come crying asking for AV to change the mechanics so I can flee with my belongings until the fighting is over! I paid to play DFO, not some watered down turd that caters to carebears that can't handle the fact they get outmanouvered by the enemy.

OK I'll give you the last one, trouble is this will just lead to more whining because some other prick starts abusing the system to waste newbies at starter citys or jack you for your gear. I think the trouble is the alignment system itself, it's there to guard against tossers but those tossers still abuse it like they would any system. I'm not sure what the answer would be, the current alignment system has its flaws but I can live with them. Best thing you can do is kill those third partys, take the alignment hit (if any) and farm it back after the battle? Otherwise what you suggest is just adding another set of rules easily abused by griefers on top of the alignment system already in existance.

Sigh, go ahead, say the word "carebear' one more time in response to someone trying to make suggestions about how to resolve an unfair combat situation. Makes you look really tough.

Rofl. Some DF player are hilarious.

You don't PVP, you like to gank (deduced from your comments about EVE merc rules), which hardly makes you the PVP 'pro' you seem to feel you are.

Maligar · December 2009

Originally posted by Agricola1

I paid to play DFO, not some watered down turd that caters to carebears that can't handle the fact they get outmanouvered by the enemy.

No, you paid to play a POS (turd) game that caters to the asshat bottom feeders of the gaming community, who can't handle the fact that they suck at real PVP and use tactics similar to the ones the OP is trying to get corrected.

MaGicBush · December 2009

What's funny is there is already a 1 day cooldown on wars, clans can only declare one war a day. Has no one played the game recently on this thread?

Another point if your worried about this is to join a clan with a player city, then you don't have to worry about it. Though I do agree smaller clans are at a disadvantage if they don't have a city, and I am sure one day AV will cater to them.

xpiher · December 2009

Originally posted by MaGicBush

What's funny is there is already a 1 day cooldown on wars, clans can only declare one war a day. Has no one played the game recently on this thread?

Another point if your worried about this is to join a clan with a player city, then you don't have to worry about it. Though I do agree smaller clans are at a disadvantage if they don't have a city, and I am sure one day AV will cater to them.

I doubt that AV will cater to small clans much, since people can ally larger clans and live in their city.

Pro-tip: clans in DFO aren't meant for you to be just a group of friends haging out, they are a battle mechanism.

thinktank001 · December 2009

Originally posted by Agricola1

I'll tell you what I consider carebear, having a one day timer before war commences. It allows for people to decide tactics such as running away and hiding, next you'll be asking for AV to put in a mechanic that means anyone wishing to raid a city or hamlet must request to do so one day in advance with a timer before they can attack. Pretty ridiculous in my opinion and only something that a clan that cannot defend itself would do, as crying to the DEVs is their last line of defence. You disagree? Then why have it if you are unless you just can't handle defeat? I get raped in city raids on a regular basis but don't come crying asking for AV to change the mechanics so I can flee with my belongings until the fighting is over! I paid to play DFO, not some watered down turd that caters to carebears that can't handle the fact they get outmanouvered by the enemy.
OK I'll give you the last one, trouble is this will just lead to more whining because some other prick starts abusing the system to waste newbies at starter citys or jack you for your gear. I think the trouble is the alignment system itself, it's there to guard against tossers but those tossers still abuse it like they would any system. I'm not sure what the answer would be, the current alignment system has its flaws but I can live with them. Best thing you can do is kill those third partys, take the alignment hit (if any) and farm it back after the battle? Otherwise what you suggest is just adding another set of rules easily abused by griefers on top of the alignment system already in existance.

ROFLMAO, what do you think a war dec is? It is an official letter of war.

If you want to attack an enemy w/o notice, then gather your clans and raid their city.

Ibluerate · December 2009

Sandbox games tend to snag up only two people, really fun roleplayers or douches.

Sad fact of sandbox MMOs.

Respit · December 2009

Allowing one individual to even be able to start a clan(which by definition shouldn't be possible), is just yet another of the problems associated with the total freedom mindset that Aventurine adopted.

I still find it amazing that all the problems they are experiencing is nothing new in the industry, and that Aventurine apparently wasn't paying attention.

Anyway, this should be an interesting couple of weeks, considering most the NA kids will be out on Christmas break.

glofish · December 2009

there should be a short delay - one minute would help - to avoid declaring war for the sole purpose of ganking someone who is banking their things - that's just not right

xpiher · December 2009

Originally posted by Respit

Allowing one individual to even be able to start a clan(which by definition shouldn't be possible), is just yet another of the problems associated with the total freedom mindset that Aventurine adopted.

I still find it amazing that all the problems they are experiencing is nothing new in the industry, and that Aventurine apparently wasn't paying attention.

Anyway, this should be an interesting couple of weeks, considering most the NA kids will be out on Christmas break.

I dont see why its a problem. Sure getting killed in town sucks, but its not like you don't get fair warning that its coming.

Annwyn · December 2009

Everything is fair as far as Clan War Declaration goes. Heck, Challenging a clan city gives you 24 hours to prepare.....that's more than enough. Can't stand being PK'ed in starter city? Well go to your clan city or leave your clan. It's as simple as that.

Also, there is already a Keep system to catter to smaller clans. Not sure if it's succesfull or not though.

Agricola1 · December 2009

Originally posted by thinktank001

Originally posted by Agricola1

I'll tell you what I consider carebear, having a one day timer before war commences. It allows for people to decide tactics such as running away and hiding, next you'll be asking for AV to put in a mechanic that means anyone wishing to raid a city or hamlet must request to do so one day in advance with a timer before they can attack. Pretty ridiculous in my opinion and only something that a clan that cannot defend itself would do, as crying to the DEVs is their last line of defence. You disagree? Then why have it if you are unless you just can't handle defeat? I get raped in city raids on a regular basis but don't come crying asking for AV to change the mechanics so I can flee with my belongings until the fighting is over! I paid to play DFO, not some watered down turd that caters to carebears that can't handle the fact they get outmanouvered by the enemy.
OK I'll give you the last one, trouble is this will just lead to more whining because some other prick starts abusing the system to waste newbies at starter citys or jack you for your gear. I think the trouble is the alignment system itself, it's there to guard against tossers but those tossers still abuse it like they would any system. I'm not sure what the answer would be, the current alignment system has its flaws but I can live with them. Best thing you can do is kill those third partys, take the alignment hit (if any) and farm it back after the battle? Otherwise what you suggest is just adding another set of rules easily abused by griefers on top of the alignment system already in existance.

ROFLMAO, what do you think a war dec is? It is an official letter of war.

If you want to attack an enemy w/o notice, then gather your clans and raid their city.

I agree, I was trying to say if you put a timer on it then in a few months time the'll want restrictions on raiding, then they'll want massive EVE safe zones and it'll go on and on until we end up playing WoWfall. Exactly the same thing happened in EVE and that's why I make the comparison. Whiners and carebears that cried about war decs were told "Join an NPC corp or STFU!", until they cried so hard and CCP saw the extra cash they'd gain and nerfed the war dec system exactly as misfit suggested. He wants a replica of the EVE wardec system which is basically a carebear friendly war dec system.

Also EVE is at the point now that my friend who still plays tells me how it's got so carebear that CCP has revoked wars he's declared because the corp he declared on cried to CCP and they revoked it and told him not to declare on them again! Also you get killed, just send a ticket to CCP saying you died to lag and viola they give you all your gear back.

No I want DFO, not EVE. If I wanted that war system I'd subscribe to EVE, if I wanted alt+tab and button mashing I'd subscribe to WoW, if I wanted instances and capped sieges I'd sub to AoC. What was made was a suggestion to improve the game for the exact type of player that irritates me in every MMORPG. They know exactly what to expect, but after getting rolled a few times want the DEVs to change the system so that they don't get rolled, but at the cost of the rest of the playerbase. In DFO you're either the hunter or the hunted, live with it or play EVE!

Respit · December 2009

Originally posted by xpiher

Originally posted by Respit

Allowing one individual to even be able to start a clan(which by definition shouldn't be possible), is just yet another of the problems associated with the total freedom mindset that Aventurine adopted.

I still find it amazing that all the problems they are experiencing is nothing new in the industry, and that Aventurine apparently wasn't paying attention.

Anyway, this should be an interesting couple of weeks, considering most the NA kids will be out on Christmas break.

I dont see why its a problem. Sure getting killed in town sucks, but its not like you don't get fair warning that its coming.

Sure, you may personally not see how this is a problem, but history has shown that it is. I am not going to rehash the many reasons why, but anyone with an ounce of objective reasoning can see this.

To quote the Gospel of John 11:49-50, "And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not."

Agricola1 · December 2009

Well if we're gonna quote the bible how about "thou shalt not kill" or "Love thy neighbour" or "let he whom hath never sinned cast the first stone" or "A rich man may never enter the gates of heaven".

Or how about my personal favourite from the electronic gaming bible,

"and the multitude did ask lord Tasos "We are getting rolled by uber PvPers and they are making us their bitches, what will Aventurine do to make up for our lack of skills and thin skin?". Tasos did then stand and the multitude did go silent and wait with baited breath, then our lord Tasos did say "STFU or go back to WoW you fags!"".

True story!

downtoearth · December 2009

Originally posted by Agricola1

Well if we're gonna quote the bible how about "thou shalt not kill" or "Love thy neighbour" or "let he whom hath never sinned cast the first stone" or "A rich man may never enter the gates of heaven".
Or how about my personal favourite from the electronic gaming bible,
"and the multitude did ask lord Tasos "We are getting rolled by uber PvPers and they are making us their bitches, what will Aventurine do to make up for our lack of skills and thin skin?". Tasos did then stand and the multitude did go silent and wait with baited breath, then our lord Tasos did say "STFU or go back to WoW you fags!"".
True story!

funny thing is i bet taso would say this if someone pissed him off

Agricola1 · December 2009

Originally posted by downtoearth

Originally posted by Agricola1

Well if we're gonna quote the bible how about "thou shalt not kill" or "Love thy neighbour" or "let he whom hath never sinned cast the first stone" or "A rich man may never enter the gates of heaven".
Or how about my personal favourite from the electronic gaming bible,
"and the multitude did ask lord Tasos "We are getting rolled by uber PvPers and they are making us their bitches, what will Aventurine do to make up for our lack of skills and thin skin?". Tasos did then stand and the multitude did go silent and wait with baited breath, then our lord Tasos did say "STFU or go back to WoW you fags!"".
True story!

funny thing is i bet taso would say this if someone pissed him off

Yeah I was only being semi serious, though I'm sure Tasos might say it IRL unrecorded but he'd be crazy to post it on the forums. Best to just say "we're looking into it", standard when most DEVs want to say GTFO!

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FOTM - 1 Man Clans and War Dec'ing

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FOTM - 1 Man Clans and War Dec'ing

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV