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Good v evil clich
jayarte
Member UncommonPosts: 450
I previously posted this on the Alganon website, but didn't attract as much discussion as I had hoped for. That might mean the topic is boring/irrelevant for most people, but I thought I'd give it another airing here just to see.
This has been bugging me for some time now and I'm interested to see what other people think about this prevalent dichotomy in mmo's. After starting Warhammer's endless trial recently where the dogma of this genre seems almost parodied with the two factions (Order and Destruction), I felt irritated enough to make a post in the hope of some intelligent discussion.
A brief bit of background about myself. I am so far outside the "box" most of the time that I can't even see its shape. From as far back as I remember, I questioned everything ("questioned the arse out of everything" in the fond words of my parents). As I grew older, I particularly noticed social conventions, institutions and paradigms which I just couldn't believe in, and often vehemently opposed. In order not to offend anyone I won't bother listing all these; people will either understand what I'm saying here or not ^^
So, back to mmo's and clichés of the genre. I have to confess to a fondness for the swords, magic and bows of classic fantasy because the further away I can travel in my mind from the world in which we live with its guns and nuclear weapons etc, the more I enjoy the experience. I am drawn, though, to games/books which play around with this a bit (for example Allods online seems to be a mix of traditional fantasy and space opera which sounds intriguing to me).
Having acknowledged my liking of a particular cliché (bows, swords and magic as opposed to guns) I want to articulate my extreme dislike of the good versus evil cliché. It's hard to summarise what I hate about this, but partly it is the lack of depth behind this idea and partly the way it seems, to me, to reflect a deep-rooted xenophobia or hatred of "other" which people have in real life. So having to choose between two factions (and why only two? Many gamers hold DAOC to be one of the greats, and a big part of the success there according to a lot of players was the three realms) really, really bugs me. It particularly bugs me because In WoW, EQ2, Aion, Alganon, AOC and, most notably in my own experience, Warhammer, the choice is between two clichés.
On the one side we have Order/Alliance/Asharr/Elyos who stand for light, truth, societal order and embody the basically "good" qualities that most individuals/societies strive for. Players of this faction get to make a character who is usually either designated human (or elf), or, if not, definitely more human-looking. The character models on this side are usually more aesthetically pleasing and they typically start their adventuring in a lush, green, environment, usually a forest/woodland type landscape but flooded with lots of natural light.
Those on the other side, Destruction/Horde/Kujix/Asmodian are stuck with uglier characters (although actually in Alganon, again personally, I don't find that to be so. They are interesting and different in this game, rather than repulsive to me). The qualities of this faction (although not so much for Horde in WoW when one follows the lore even a little) tend towards darkness, destruction, chaos, anarchy etc etc. The player on the "dark" side starts their adventures in a darker environment (varies from game to game, but in my own experience this side never starts in a lush green forest).
In Warhammer certainly (not sure enough about lore of other games) the Destruction faction is the one who invades the Order faction. In both WoW with the Dark Knight opening chapter, and in Warhammer with the Chaos starter area, players have to complete quests (which I find deeply repulsive) where they kill cowering villagers.
I'm not wanting to get bogged down in ethical considerations here, because I know most people play a game, have fun and interact with their gaming at a certain level where for them, I imagine, playing a character who invades a village and kills defenceless villagers doesn't really bother them. So, I'll just mention here that it does bother me, but I'm not attacking players who aren't affected in the same way. I don't particularly like the focus on killing things generally and would like to see some interesting alternatives to that, but again, that isn't my focus here.
The main point I am trying to raise here is that people who create these games seem to have become stuck in a simplistic, clichéd rut regarding two opposing factions, and then a further clichéd rut regarding what qualities each faction should embody, how they should look, what they should be called, what actions they would perform and so on.
I haven't played enough of DAOC to comment from my own experience, but I believe that game broke away from this simplistic, reductionist model of two factions (the white hats and the black hats) and it remains a game which many hail as a classic, perhaps not just because of the lack of the evil/good schism, but maybe that contributed to its success? I'm not advocating this change of focus for pvp reasons, although I think it would enrich the pvp experience to have more than two factions and each faction to be more depicted as being more complex than either evil or good.
What I long to play is a game with at least 3 factions with each faction being comprised of characters who are not designated either evil nor good, but are a mixture. I'm fed up of having my choices in a game limited between two sides, neither of which feel "right" to me in the sense of me being comfortable with the character, its looks, the qualities it embodies and the reasons for its actions in the gameworld. So, I wish game developers could break right out of the box to make a game with factions which don't consist of a set of clichés and, following on from that, characters which open up choices for the players rather than restricting them to black hat/white hat.
Comments
before i get done reading this one thing to ask... Is this your thesis paper? Or is this osme kind of proof? Or more likely is this some kind of essay?
I hope i can mke it to the end w/o turning into a madman. Also most likely if you're asking if it'll ever leave mmos. NO it won't since it's simple and people respond to it.
WoW doesnt have the cliché.
And some games such as Warhammer/Lotro are Good vs Evil because of the lore, I think Vanguard has 3 factions.
P.S. dont take my comment into account i only read the last paragraph.. sorry.
No, my student days are long behind me, so it's not a dissertation, essay or proof ^^ Just a few thoughts that had been bugging me. I was hoping that maybe some people had had some similar thoughts, but I realise it is a very long (and maybe boring) read, so I apologise for that.
You are correct, in DAOC there were 3 factions and none were considered "evil" (excapt maybe those scum sucking Hibbies and Mids, Albion forever!)
But I digress. I agree, games don't really need a good vs evil theme, look at EVE, everyone's evil (or I assume they are) so it keeps things simple.
All goes back to the Tolkenese roots where there were definitely good and evil creatures, reinforced by years of D &D which introduced alignments and sometimes tied them various races.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
TL;DR version: OP wants factions with grey moral choices, not the same old LOL I R GOOD/BAD GUY.
A valid point tho, it would make lore far more interesting to see some good back reasons.
Lotoro yes, because Tolkien made it a black and white morality world. Wow , maybe .. they can't seem to make up their mind about it. Warhammer, no way Jose. Warhammer online took a boneheaded, ham-handed approach at making their game ignoring about thirty years worth of Warhammer lore. In the Warhammer universe good and evil are very relative terms. It is a universe created for continuous violence destruction and chaos. The various races get along like cats in a sack. And worse even factions of the SAME race don't get along that well. You are as likely to be killed by members of your own race as those of the so called enemies.
I completely agree with the OP that the "good and evil" factions these days are a load of horse sh*t. Not only are they a wee bit childish morally, they are also a major cause of game imbalance. How many game servers on Wow or War were completely unplayable due to faction population imbalances?
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It's not a cliche, it's a theme that occupies humaity and has occupied humanity for quite a long time.
Good and Evil, shades of gray. It is something that we wrestle with and discuss and ponder. Seems to be at the crux of what makes us work.
People can identify with it.
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Lately in WoW Order does more bad stuff than Horde. In WoW the Horde is about evil trying to redeem itself, but still have rough edges and is jaded. Order is about xenophobia.
To have an epic storyline you need epic enemies. If you want player driven storyline then the players themselves will create the "bad side" to them.
In futuristic or modern games you do not have the worry of evil in games because politics creates precieved evil. In games that are based on swords and socery you end up with evil and good gods, powers, items, etc. that create the story lines.
You're not alone, OP. This bugs me too.
One of the things that I like about the Warcraft lore is that, when you get right down to it, the Alliance are the "bad" guys, despite being depicted at first glance as the altruistic and benevolent protectors of Azeroth. The Horde are warlike and brutal, but virtually all of the destruction that has been unleashed upon Azeroth was as a result of the Alliance races.
Also the example that you mentioned; Death Knights .. enslaved minions under the direct control of the Lich King. While they are unarguably "evil" (at least while still enslaved) the class is open to both factions, so doesn't contribute to the clichéd "good/evil" status of either, really.
I'm not really big on rigid factions in general, if I'm honest. I'd like everyone to be able to interact with one another and have shifting affiliations, religions and loyalties that occasionally put them at odds. Would make for an interesting political element to gameplay.
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That's one thing I like about EvE. It doesn't insult my intelligence with "good" and "evil" sides. It has factions and personal goals.
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I agree that the good versus evil debate has occupied people for a long time, but part of my point is that some people tend to see the side they are on as good, and the other side as evil which is simplistic. It becomes a cliché when reduced to a "black hats/white hats" level.
I personally can't identify with reductionist, simplistic thinking which furthermore (in real life) tries to dehumanise the enemy" in order to justify certain actions towards that "enemy". In life the matter is further complicated by the fact that ordinary people (those who end up fighting and dying in their millions) are told who the enemy of the moment is by those in power (governments, monarchies, dictators etc) who usually have an agenda which has little to do with any notions of "good".
In a way what I am saying about seeing this cliché in the gaming world is that this is an area where we could break away from the clichés which beset us in real life. I'm a funny mix of cynical and idealistic at times in that I had hoped, when I first discovered mmo's, to find a fantasy world where I could escape a lot of the stereotypes and narrow-minded thinking of real life, but instead, disappointingly, I find that the creativity of game developers doesn't always extend as far as I'd like. (Yes, I understand the financial constraints imposed by the money people and also that even really creative people still have to make enough cash to live on, but still ...)
Anarchy Online's teams were not really good or bad either. Both sides had their good and bad points.
I always thought the horde was supposed to be evil, with minotaurs, orcs, undead and red demonic skies.
But then again Aseroth isn't Earth, I guess it is normal to be saddistic over there.
You're seeing things that aren't there and it's probably because you are analyzing everything except the stuff that will answer your questions. The Elyos are just as guilty of wrongful acts as the Asmos. Actually, in the comic book that comes with the box, the Elyos are on a vengeful rage, slaughtering Asmo men, women and children. Alliance is just as good/bad as the Horde is. A perfect example is the Forsaken. It's a group of Undead that heard their leader's evil plan, said "Holy cow, this bitch is crazy. Let's blow this joint" and formed their own faction.
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I know WoW and Aion are less black and white even though they seem that way, but you're right. I never actually played Dragon Age, but from what I hear the most interesting part of it is the "shades of gray" characters and the fact that you can pick more than just your race but your class (Not like ranger, mage and warrior classes, but noble, peasant etc.) as well. I think we should see more of that. Maybe I don't want to be a good elf, maybe I want to kill the humans and free my race. Maybe I don't want to be a savage, evil orc, maybe I don't want to lay waste to the dwarven mines. I think you're almost totally right (Except for that part where you aren't a big fan of killing, I LOVE killing things :P), games should reflect more on how the real world works, not on how some Lord of the Rings book works. It would call for much deeper and meaningful gameplay.
This statement is false.
This sums it up for me.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I would like to see moral complexity into MMOs and all kind of games...
But you are wrong about AION lore.
Everything you said about Asmodians and Elyos are not truth, you are wrong about Asmodians. The war between Elyos and Asmodians is not an example of good versus evil, there is nothing "evil" about them...
Anarchy, destruction, chaos are not compatible with the asmodian culture...
...
Maybe if firstly they'd stop sticking all guys with horns, strange skin colors, fur, tatoos and glowing eyes inte one faction, giving it a name like Hazexutexhzxchbretisch and making it all dark and gloomy. Then afterwards make a convoluted backstory about how these were "not really so bad" while the white, angel-winged, halo sporting, white-toothed, tall-and-slender guys were "not really all that good" we could buy their crap.
Problem is that art direction tells us one story and the "lore" another, and we tend to go with the message provided by graphics simply because of the communicative power of the symbolic. If it's got names with guttural sounds, is red and grey and lives underground in volcanic caves then chances are I'm going to think they are "evil" no matter what the quest text(that I didn't read) tells me.
Lost and depressed, where are the good MMOs at?
So by your logic I can look at deep sea creatures and come to the undeniable conclusion that they must be evil with all the gloomy/freaky/spiky looks, because that makes them evil, right? Asmo's look the way they do because of their environment. Let me ask you, are you extra careful on the street when you see a deformed cripple? He must want to steal your wallet right?
I mean not to cause offence, but If game devs started following your advice we would have damn boring games where everything is what it appears to be. The good guy must be handsome in shiny armor while the evil witch must be ugly as all hell lol.
- Shijeer
I have nothing against good and evil when done in a proper way. As LOTR did and Dragon age did.
Good side normally when properly done normally covers every aspect of human nature from the selfless hero to the tyrant king and how they have to unite to fend off pure all consuming evil. This normally has a lot of interesting aspects of human narture to play with.
evil, is normally just that bland evil and something used to help drive the story of the good sides which deals with aspects of humanity in time of strife.
Eh, I liked the good vs. evil-theme of FFXI. First you set on a journey to "save the world" from the "evil". Later on you find out that you were actually the bad guy, although the line between good and evil becomes quite shady in the long run.
The playable "good" races weren't as innocent as you'd think either. They enslaved the other races and tried to rid the beastmen of their homes, or take over the world in their lust for power.
I think which you choose (good vs. evil / morally grey) depends on the story you are trying to tell.
There are some great stories out there which carry the 'shades of grey' theme, but equally some good stories with good vs. evil.
If one is trying to tell a myth, fable or the like, one could easily choose the good vs. evil theme. Star Wars for example is a great good vs. evil story and even the characters such as Han Solo who are morally grey are forced to make the choice by the end. This is because Lucas was following a mythic story tradition which dates back thousands of years, not necessarily because it reflects reality.
I think that is what we need to remember about fantasy good vs. evil stories. It isn't because they necessarily promote the truth of good vs. evil; it is due to the creation of an 'ideal' - a world of 'fantasy' rather than reality. Often in times where reality seems very 'grey' - you see movies/literature pop up that are starkely good vs. evil. Star Wars again as an example again, being released in the wake of Watergate, or Lord of the Rings during the Bush administration. That, or it can simply be an emulation of a literary style of myths and legends.
As you said, one needs to look outside the box; sometimes good vs. evil is deeper than the easy cliche it appears on the surface.