Because MMOs should be about FREEDOM of CHOICE. Not being forced into a certain role or gameplay mechanic. I don't want to be forced to raid, nor do I want to be forced to PvP. Nor do I want to be forced to solo, or be forced to group
Because MMOs should be about FREEDOM of CHOICE. Not being forced into a certain role or gameplay mechanic. I don't want to be forced to raid, nor do I want to be forced to PvP. Nor do I want to be forced to solo, or be forced to group
I want freedom, and I want choices.
And then we get down to the specifics, and you actually said nothing of value just now.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I am a "solo-er". Forced grouping to me would have me leaving the game quickly, especially to advance in the game in a pivotal point.
Let me explain my reasons for soloing. 1) I play the game at MY pace and can immerse myself in the content and world. When I group, I have noticed it is a mad rush to kill everything and move on to the next dungeon, instance, what have you.
2) Which is tougher? A Group of players defeating a big baddie, or a solo-er defeating a somewhat lesser baddie? Is it easier to advance in a game grouping or soloing? Risk vs Reward is usually thrown out in this kind of discussion. In my opinion, soloists have a much tougher time in games. Soloists do not have the well rounded skills that groups have. No combination of healers, controllers, tanks, damage dealers, or buffers/debuffers.
3) "Why don't you play [insert PC/Console stand alone game here]?" Because no matter how many times I play that game, it is the same. MMOG's are always changing. I CAN interact with other live players. Interaction and grouping should never be confused as "the same thing". It is not. It is easy to lend a hand to someone in trouble or ask for help if in trouble without grouping.
Would I leave a game because of forced grouping? In a heartbeat.
I have no desire to sit around waiting for a group of strangers to allow me into their group and possibly die through no fault of my own. Even worse, causing some other player's death through my mistakes/ineptness/learning my character.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I am a "solo-er". Forced grouping to me would have me leaving the game quickly, especially to advance in the game in a pivotal point. Let me explain my reasons for soloing.
1) I play the game at MY pace and can immerse myself in the content and world. When I group, I have noticed it is a mad rush to kill everything and move on to the next dungeon, instance, what have you. 2) Which is tougher? A Group of players defeating a big baddie, or a solo-er defeating a somewhat lesser baddie? Is it easier to advance in a game grouping or soloing? Risk vs Reward is usually thrown out in this kind of discussion. In my opinion, soloists have a much tougher time in games. Soloists do not have the well rounded skills that groups have. No combination of healers, controllers, tanks, damage dealers, or buffers/debuffers. 3) "Why don't you play [insert PC/Console stand alone game here]?" Because no matter how many times I play that game, it is the same. MMOG's are always changing. I CAN interact with other live players. Interaction and grouping should never be confused as "the same thing". It is not. It is easy to lend a hand to someone in trouble or ask for help if in trouble without grouping. Would I leave a game because of forced grouping? In a heartbeat. I have no desire to sit around waiting for a group of strangers to allow me into their group and possibly die through no fault of my own. Even worse, causing some other player's death through my mistakes/ineptness/learning my character.
You don't know what forced grouping means.
No, the "forced" is misleading. That's why the ""'s.
Sigh, we need to figure out a better word for this term, the old one has kinda lost it's purpose...
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I'm the type of gamer who enjoys multiple styles of play. My first mmorpg was Asheron's Call which was very much a soloists mmorpgs, but had some fantastic grouping options (quests, better xps gains, etc). I then moved onto DAoC which was a mmorpg that really required groups in the early days. I've played a myriad of mmorpgs since those first two, and I really like a blend of play.
WoW does have a good balance between the two. However, before patch 3.3, grouping was almost non-existant pre end game. At least with the ability to queue for a random dungeon, I can run group content (instances) using characters of the proper level.
Any mmorpg should not limit itself to one style of play, but rather be more fluid. Where many mmorpgs fail to meet the balance between the two styles of play. WoW was a solo mmorpg until end game and it took them 5 years to correct the issue (possibly due to tech issues). Other mmorpgs have many quests that require groups, but then after everyone had passed the early levels, finding groups for those quests are near impossible. Developers need to be more quick to act upon the needs of the player base.
Personally, I would love if more mmorpgs followed the approach where you can solo and earn rewards, but also group and earn xp just as efficiently as well as reap somewhat better rewards for the effort. Finding balance is what should be required of any dev team.
Originally posted by Hyanmen Originally posted by AlBQuirky I am a "solo-er". Forced grouping to me would have me leaving the game quickly, especially to advance in the game in a pivotal point. Let me explain my reasons for soloing. 1) I play the game at MY pace and can immerse myself in the content and world. When I group, I have noticed it is a mad rush to kill everything and move on to the next dungeon, instance, what have you. 2) Which is tougher? A Group of players defeating a big baddie, or a solo-er defeating a somewhat lesser baddie? Is it easier to advance in a game grouping or soloing? Risk vs Reward is usually thrown out in this kind of discussion. In my opinion, soloists have a much tougher time in games. Soloists do not have the well rounded skills that groups have. No combination of healers, controllers, tanks, damage dealers, or buffers/debuffers. 3) "Why don't you play [insert PC/Console stand alone game here]?" Because no matter how many times I play that game, it is the same. MMOG's are always changing. I CAN interact with other live players. Interaction and grouping should never be confused as "the same thing". It is not. It is easy to lend a hand to someone in trouble or ask for help if in trouble without grouping. Would I leave a game because of forced grouping? In a heartbeat. I have no desire to sit around waiting for a group of strangers to allow me into their group and possibly die through no fault of my own. Even worse, causing some other player's death through my mistakes/ineptness/learning my character.
You don't know what forced grouping means. No, the "forced" is misleading. That's why the ""'s.
Sigh, we need to figure out a better word for this term, the old one has kinda lost it's purpose... I apologize if I did not communicate myself very well. To me, "forced grouping" means no other choice then finding other players to advance in a game. It means in order to get past a certain point in the game (say a specific level, or to unlock a new set of skills, etc), one needs help. If I misunderstand the meaning, could I be enlightened?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't really care if I come across a part that I have to group up to continue, let alone just get the best gear. But if there was a point in your character development that you couldn't even advance any further, unless you did a short scripted encounter with 1 other person (yes a 2 man team) where class didn't matter, would you quit right there?
This would be on a single shard server, so there would essentially be someone who is ALWAYS available (early stage in the game).
I'm not sure I'd "quit right there" if the rest of the game was primo good stuff up until that point, but I'd be annoyed. I don't like being shoe-horned into anything. If it began happening regularly, I'd unbutt that A.O. real quick. LoTR was mentioned as an example of forced grouping, and needing to group to pursue the story line annoyed me when I played it. Probably contributes to why I only log on once every 6 months these days. I never know how long I'll be on at a given time, and I don't like being stuffed into a PUG to be able to go through the main content. I hate PUGs, with a flaming passion. If somebody in a zone asks really, really nicely for help with XYZ, I'll likely as not join up and help, but I tend to ignore/decline quests which require a group to complete. I like seeing grouping rewarded, but think it that the main content, main storyline should not require grouping to pursue.
Someone(OP) doesn't understand the meaning behind not forcing grouping. It's not that people don't ever want to have to group for anything ever! It's that people don't want to have to sit around, wait to form the group, IF they can form the group, and then manage to stay around long enough to make the group worth it, every time they play. Most reasonable people will want to be able to pick up and play and be able to do SOMETHING. I can't count how many times in the old days of EQ I would log in, spend my full two hours I had set aside for gaming trying to get a decent group together, and then just logging out again with nothing accomplished. I'll give you a tip, that's not fun.
Someone(OP) doesn't understand the meaning behind not forcing grouping. It's not that people don't ever want to have to group for anything ever! It's that people don't want to have to sit around, wait to form the group, IF they can form the group, and then manage to stay around long enough to make the group worth it, every time they play. Most reasonable people will want to be able to pick up and play and be able to do SOMETHING. I can't count how many times in the old days of EQ I would log in, spend my full two hours I had set aside for gaming trying to get a decent group together, and then just logging out again with nothing accomplished. I'll give you a tip, that's not fun.
I think I know what your getting at but I'd like to phrase it slightly differently. For me, forced grouping means that everytime you log in you need to find a group to accomplish anything. OP, occasional grouping to get a quest done you need is NOT forced grouping.
I don't really care if I come across a part that I have to group up to continue, let alone just get the best gear. But if there was a point in your character development that you couldn't even advance any further, unless you did a short scripted encounter with 1 other person (yes a 2 man team) where class didn't matter, would you quit right there?
This would be on a single shard server, so there would essentially be someone who is ALWAYS available (early stage in the game).
"If you lived in a magical fantasy realm where there was a game where you'd ALWAYS be able to find a group, would you like it?"
Sure.
"If you lived in a magical fantasy realm where all the female avatars were controlled by actual women who looked JUST LIKE their avatar and were single and hot and lived about 5 minutes from you and were always horny, would you like it?"
Also sure.
"Do you think either of these scenarios is likely?"
The second is more likely than the first.
"Grouping" isn't a problem, at least for most people, well, at least for me. I play a multiplayer game because, duh, there's other players. "Not being able to play unless you can find a group and you usually can't" is a problem. "You joined the game two years after it shipped and now everyone is levelling their 90th alt with their guildies and has no use for non-twinked n00bs" is a problem. "The class/build/whatever you find the most fun isn't this week's 'must have' and no one wants to 'waste' a group slot on you" is a problem. "I play at 2 AM server time" is a problem.
Postulating an impossible scenario and then saying, "Well, would you like it THEN?" is a pretty poor style of debate.
I'd rather group than not group; I'd rather PLAY than not play. Typing "LFG..." for hours is Not Playing.
WoW's new Dungeon Finder is pretty amazing. So far, I've never had to wait for more than a minute to get in a group. You could probably go from 15 to max without doing anything but joining a queue, running a random dungeon, lather, rinse, repeat. Of course, this basically turns the game into one city, where you sit while waiting in the queue and run to the AH to sell your loot, eliminating huge swathes of fun (exploration, questing), but if what you want is all groups, all the time... you got it.
Someone(OP) doesn't understand the meaning behind not forcing grouping. It's not that people don't ever want to have to group for anything ever! It's that people don't want to have to sit around, wait to form the group, IF they can form the group, and then manage to stay around long enough to make the group worth it, every time they play. Most reasonable people will want to be able to pick up and play and be able to do SOMETHING. I can't count how many times in the old days of EQ I would log in, spend my full two hours I had set aside for gaming trying to get a decent group together, and then just logging out again with nothing accomplished. I'll give you a tip, that's not fun.
"Cave of Flatulance Group LF cleric, PST!"
*Insert 20 minutes of punking lawn trash while waiting for reply*
"Let me check with my guildies...OK, got one coming! He's in the Swamp of Way The Hell Over At the Other End. Can anyone port him?"
And Warhammer Online in about a month, the rate things are going. (Sigh... really liked WAR, too, and it's a good example of why making a game only fun if you can find a group is a real bad design choice. WAR with 2-3 warbands clashing all over... fun. WAR with scenarios popping every 5 minutes... fun. WAR with just solo PVE? Not fun. And that means as soon as population started to drop, the drop went into a death spiral. People quit because they couldn't find a group, so it became harder to find a group, so more people quit... server merges killed guilds and shattered alliances, and people forced to pick between their Order and Chaos alts picked 'I quit', instead.)
Darkfall has two servers.
Can't think of any other halfway well known games with one server. I may be missing some, though.
I have no objection to trying out a grouping only MMO, but that is an extreme solution. That would be the PvP equivalent of Darkfall, which was designed on the premise that PvE and PvP don’t mix well, so let’s make a PvP game. Two servers could work, but they would be drastically different games as you would have to notch up the difficulty of every mob and encounter to make it a grouping game.
The way to have two paths in the same game won’t be easy, if it was someone would have done it by now. But we can see some signs of thought going into this, from WoW’s new grouping mechanic, to the old buddy system of CoH. It has been a snail’s progress which has focused on making grouping easier in solocentric MMO’s, not addressing the deeper issues.
The key to making soloing and grouping work, in the same game on the same server, is to separate the rewards for solo and grouped gaming. You can’t have solo and groups going on the same quests, for the same rewards. But if you have separate quest lines that is a lot of extra work, in a sense that is the same as having two games on one server. Remember we are thinking here about what could be done with current games, not just building from scratch. To start with giving different rewards would be a step in the right direction.
So how do you handle the different rewards? Well you could have exactly the same armour as a reward but if you did it as a group, it would give you a ‘grouping buff’. As long as you were in a group of a minimum size you get the buff. The buff only activates when in ‘grouping areas’, like a instance where you can do grouped quests. You could have a ‘grouping level’ as well as a ‘soloing level’, xp from your soloing puts up your solo level, while grouping yields ‘grouping xp’. When you are grouped it is your ‘grouping level’ that is your actual level for game purposes. This might then equate to your level if you are grouped for PvP purposes. As always there are balance issues, but you can only expect games already out to take baby steps, not do a radical redesign.
Also I see groupers as people who are more likely to join a guild, so group rewards could concentrate on boosting your guild. Things like more guild chests to a fancier castle. Then there is achievements and titles that you only get if you do something solo, but also ones that you only get if you do it in a group.
I apologize if I did not communicate myself very well. To me, "forced grouping" means no other choice then finding other players to advance in a game. It means in order to get past a certain point in the game (say a specific level, or to unlock a new set of skills, etc), one needs help. If I misunderstand the meaning, could I be enlightened?
I understood what you meant, but it's a misunderstanding.
By "forced" grouping we simply mean that grouping is the more effective and preferred way of progression over soloing in all instances. Soloing is not impossible, and grouping is not the only way, but it's the best way.
I've noticed that in these kind of games, soloing is much more fun and challenging as well, since it's not really the playstyle for the majority of players. Well, that's if you like challenge.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I think I know what your getting at but I'd like to phrase it slightly differently. For me, forced grouping means that everytime you log in you need to find a group to accomplish anything. OP, occasional grouping to get a quest done you need is NOT forced grouping.
That's not really modern "forced" grouping either. Grouping isn't *required* to do anything, but it's ultimately the best way to do anything.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Ihmotepp that's absolutely ridiculous. That's like saying "My freedom as an American should give me complete freedom to enslave others, or it's not true freedom." American freedom isn't anarchy (ie true total freedom.) It's a more logical freedom, tempered by the concept of equality and the rights of individuals. The same common sense applies to player freedom in games: more overall freedom is attained by considering all players equal. Put another way: if Player A likes grouping and Player B likes soloing, what type of game structure will keep both players paying? (Hint: It's not the one that kicks Player B in the gonads.)
Why is it keeping anyone from grouping, just because they have to play longer to group to the cap?
Are you saying you can't play the game, if grouping isnt' the fastest route to the cap? Why is that?
You're saying you played some game, and when you tried to kill a mob grouping, the game just booted you and said that's not allowed?
We're not debating over "CHOICE".
ALL games allow group and disfavor solo play.
The only thing we are debating on is what should be the fastest route to the level cap. Group or solo.
Why do you insist you have no "choice" if grouping isn't the fastest route to the level cap?
FIXED.
Now, ask yourself these questions Ihmotepp, because this is what it is for you. When a soloer wants to be equally rewarded as a grouper, all hell breaks loose; then you get narrowminded and come up with all these twisted question which you could have just asked yourself instead of pointing them at the soloers.
Yes, equality would mean the group makes about double the rate of the solo player, or else the solo route is the quickest route to the cap. So you're asking for the quickest route to the top, and just changing that term to "equality". But of course it's NOT equal, since the solo player has the quickest route to the cap.
O'rly? Tell me which game then where you level fastest as solo? Don't you even DARE tell me that it is so even in WoW... I highly doubt it is so even in LOTRO. Not one single MMO I have ever played, solo is the fastest. Not one!!
Now please, enlighten me, don't say it is so in every game if you can't give me lots of examples where it actually is so.
This situation is not even close to what I think is forced grouping. Having to group to achieve certain goals within a MMO is perfectly acceptable even to someone with a soloist mentality. Forced grouping is when a game requires you to group to advance at all past a certain level (Usually right after the tutorial 'newbie' levels). The original EQ was like this for the most part past about level 15 or so for most classes. DDO was heavily like this before they revamped the game and was one of the main reasons that game almost went belly up.
Even the most die hard soloist isn't against grouping for the most part as long as it's on their terms and not forced on them by the game. People for the most part like to group as long as they get to pick the situation in which they group.
Not anymore. This was more taken for granted back in old fashioned MMO days. Now this is drastically changing.
Recent weeks different group-fanatics vs soloers discussions have convinced me that MMO's need be even more solo friendly as I now truly belive that group-fanatics are the ones who destroy ingame communities.
Once again we have a thread where 'solo-haters' start blaming soloers for ruining "their games"; They come up with examples of bad gaming mechanics including numbers, non-immersive examples, ratings etc etc, like this is to be blamed upon the soloers.
I wonder when the group-fanatics will start to care about having fun in their MMO's. So far it seems the only fun they have is when they level faster and get better gear than soloers. They have this insane fixation upon loot, level racing with as fast as possible xp you can get. It is truly an obsession of being superior to the soloers that is definately the most important part of their games. Is that really all what an MMO has to offer for the group-fanatics?
Honestly, I really do wonder why these people are playing MMO's in the first place. One thing for sure, I am glad I am able to enjoy my MMO's without them.
Are you here to troll, or to have a rational discussion? Whatever the actual XP settings are is irrelevant. If player A solos and Player B groups, and both of them are equally skilled (and Player B has average luck of the skill of his party), their actual rate of advancement should be identical. That is equality.
Send five soldiers to capture a heavily offended objective in war, each with his/her own skill set and have them coordinate and execute their plan together.
Now send five soldiers to capture a heavily defended objective in war, none of them communicating or coordinating with each other.
Which do you think will capture the reward (objective) the team or one of the solo dudes acting independently?
To say that working with a group shouldn't allow rewards out of reach of the soloer is ludicrous.
One may argue that there are certain figures in literature and/or history that accomplished amazing things by themselves. And this is true. But therefore, if the game reflects reality, only about 1% or less of soloers should actually be able to succeed in obtaining what is possible for a team - that is what made these soloers famous, they could do what most could not.
The qq behind all of these group/soloer posts is that soloers simply want the same rewards as groupers without the group effort. The soloer cannot be satisfied with rewards that allow them to dominate solo content when there are group rewards out there that would allow them to over-dominate their solo content. The solo game's give soloers what they need to conquer the solo content - but that isn't good enough for the soloer if what they are really 'forced' to do is see group content rewards. It is simply a huge cry baby fest.
If the argument was 'solo content should be more engaging and challenging' I would agree. But the argument is 'i want groupers rewards, although they are unecessary for my solo game, so I will cry that I can't get those shiny objects by myself'.
No matter how many times I've seen this thread, it always seems to boil down to the soloer being jealous of group rewards and unsatisfied with the rewards for solo content, dispite the fact that those solo rewards are more than adequate if not overpowered for the solo game.
Stop focusing on the rewards and start complaining about the boring solo content and you will have a supporter. Stop blaming groupers for playing a group-centric game and getting rewards appropriate for their group effort. It's childish.
Once again we have a thread where 'solo-haters' start blaming soloers for ruining "their games"; They come up with examples of bad gaming mechanics including numbers, non-immersive examples, ratings etc etc, like this is to be blamed upon the soloers. I wonder when the group-fanatics will start to care about having fun in their MMO's. So far it seems the only fun they have is when they level faster and get better gear than soloers. They have this insane fixation upon loot, level racing with as fast as possible xp you can get. It is truly an obsession of being superior to the soloers that is definately the most important part of their games. Is that really all what an MMO has to offer for the group-fanatics? Honestly, I really do wonder why these people are playing MMO's in the first place. One thing for sure, I am glad I am able to enjoy my MMO's without them.
Well if the objective of the developers and publishers were to make a group centric game, and the majority of subscribers subscribe because it is a group centric game and a soloer then complains that the game is group centric and wants it changed - who is to blame? How's that for a reason other than your examples?
If I were to walk on a football field solo and complain that I had to face a whole team to win, is it my right to object to the rules of football not being conducive to the soloer? That seems to be your proposal.
All the groupers are saying is go play golf and stay off our football field because we like the rules as they are.
I promise you, that out there is a 17 year old who hates grouping and will make it his/her life obsession to create a solo-oriented mmo. One day you will have your game, I promise, it is how a free market works. As hard as it is for some to swallow, WoW created a solo game where previously there was none, this was emulated in other games which followed. But where they have failed is to make that solo content consistantly as engaging as the group content, and that certainly should change.
What you need to convince developers is to make that solo content more engaging, as engaging as group content. And I believe this is what you were trying to say. But I argue that 'the insane fixation on loot' is shared by groupers and soloer's alike, your real task is to convince soloer's that they don't need group rewards to dominate their content. Because, I see soloers being jealous of group rewards as more of the crux of the problem than a group superiority complex.
Send five soldiers to capture a heavily offended objective in war, each with his/her own skill set and have them coordinate and execute their plan together. Now send five soldiers to capture a heavily defended objective in war, none of them communicating or coordinating with each other. Which do you think will capture the reward (objective) the team or one of the solo dudes acting independently? To say that working with a group shouldn't allow rewards out of reach of the soloer is ludicrous.
That's somewhat irrelevant, as we're talking about a game. Providing a fun game doesn't require realism, and in many cases realistic aspects of a game make it less fun.
Are you gonna tell players of Ninja Gaiden, Metal Gear Solid, and similar singleplayer games that they shouldn't be allowed to have fun gameplay where one soldier/ninja defeats the enemy virtually singlehandedly? Players have fun in solo gameplay, and since fun is the goal of games it's going to take a much stronger argument than "it's not realistic" to convince people that balancing these two game types is a bad idea.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Once again we have a thread where 'solo-haters' start blaming soloers for ruining "their games"; They come up with examples of bad gaming mechanics including numbers, non-immersive examples, ratings etc etc, like this is to be blamed upon the soloers. I wonder when the group-fanatics will start to care about having fun in their MMO's. So far it seems the only fun they have is when they level faster and get better gear than soloers. They have this insane fixation upon loot, level racing with as fast as possible xp you can get. It is truly an obsession of being superior to the soloers that is definately the most important part of their games. Is that really all what an MMO has to offer for the group-fanatics? Honestly, I really do wonder why these people are playing MMO's in the first place. One thing for sure, I am glad I am able to enjoy my MMO's without them.
Well if the objective of the developers and publishers were to make a group centric game, and the majority of subscribers subscribe because it is a group centric game and a soloer then complains that the game is group centric and wants it changed - who is to blame? How's that for a reason other than your examples?
If I were to walk on a football field solo and complain that I had to face a whole team to win, is it my right to object to the rules of football not being conducive to the soloer? That seems to be your proposal.
All the groupers are saying is go play golf and stay off our football field because we like the rules as they are.
I promise you, that out there is a 17 year old who hates grouping and will make it his/her life obsession to create a solo-oriented mmo. One day you will have your game, I promise, it is how a free market works. As hard as it is for some to swallow, WoW created a solo game where previously there was none, this was emulated in other games which followed. But where they have failed is to make that solo content consistantly as engaging as the group content, and that certainly should change.
What you need to convince developers is to make that solo content more engaging, as engaging as group content. And I believe this is what you were trying to say. But I argue that 'the insane fixation on loot' is shared by groupers and soloer's alike, your real task is to convince soloer's that they don't need group rewards to dominate their content. Because, I see soloers being jealous of group rewards as more of the crux of the problem than a group superiority complex.
You are doing the same; you blame soloers. When will this stop? If theres anyone to blame, it should be the gaming developers and yourself. 'More solo friendly content' has not been any issues for years. Now that the MMO genre is rapidly changing, group-fanatics have become hysterical. We who prefers to solo, have cancelled our subscriptions, for years, and answered the poll honestly (I guess) why we were cancelling. You do know most games actually ask why you are leaving?
Game developers take this into consideration, and changes their games accordingly. If people ain't interested in grouping, why should every MMO game cater this playstyle then? Time has proven to us that most of us actually prefer solo content. If theres a demand, there will be a supply. Plain & simple. I love to say this; MMO's will be even more solo friendly.
I find your accusations that soloers are jealous for irrational & utterly non-objective. I could easily say the same about groupers. That has nothing to do with the truth. How can you even say that, is a mystery to me. Well, in fact, I find that accusation lame. So lame, that I leave it with that. Too lame to bother tell you why it is not so.
My money is worth just as much for the gaming companies as yours. Even though you group-fanatics think you are 'superior' and are "owning" the MMO genre. How cute. How irrational. And how selfish & arrogant.
Well, you hysterical group-fanatics better buckle yourself up, cause there is a storm coming. Things do not look good for you in the future. It will get really ugly. Unless you are able to change with the genre. Like we modern MMO'ers are.
Comments
Because MMOs should be about FREEDOM of CHOICE. Not being forced into a certain role or gameplay mechanic. I don't want to be forced to raid, nor do I want to be forced to PvP. Nor do I want to be forced to solo, or be forced to group
I want freedom, and I want choices.
And then we get down to the specifics, and you actually said nothing of value just now.
I am a "solo-er". Forced grouping to me would have me leaving the game quickly, especially to advance in the game in a pivotal point.
Let me explain my reasons for soloing.
1) I play the game at MY pace and can immerse myself in the content and world. When I group, I have noticed it is a mad rush to kill everything and move on to the next dungeon, instance, what have you.
2) Which is tougher? A Group of players defeating a big baddie, or a solo-er defeating a somewhat lesser baddie? Is it easier to advance in a game grouping or soloing? Risk vs Reward is usually thrown out in this kind of discussion. In my opinion, soloists have a much tougher time in games. Soloists do not have the well rounded skills that groups have. No combination of healers, controllers, tanks, damage dealers, or buffers/debuffers.
3) "Why don't you play [insert PC/Console stand alone game here]?" Because no matter how many times I play that game, it is the same. MMOG's are always changing. I CAN interact with other live players. Interaction and grouping should never be confused as "the same thing". It is not. It is easy to lend a hand to someone in trouble or ask for help if in trouble without grouping.
Would I leave a game because of forced grouping? In a heartbeat.
I have no desire to sit around waiting for a group of strangers to allow me into their group and possibly die through no fault of my own. Even worse, causing some other player's death through my mistakes/ineptness/learning my character.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You don't know what forced grouping means.
No, the "forced" is misleading. That's why the ""'s.
Sigh, we need to figure out a better word for this term, the old one has kinda lost it's purpose...
I'm the type of gamer who enjoys multiple styles of play. My first mmorpg was Asheron's Call which was very much a soloists mmorpgs, but had some fantastic grouping options (quests, better xps gains, etc). I then moved onto DAoC which was a mmorpg that really required groups in the early days. I've played a myriad of mmorpgs since those first two, and I really like a blend of play.
WoW does have a good balance between the two. However, before patch 3.3, grouping was almost non-existant pre end game. At least with the ability to queue for a random dungeon, I can run group content (instances) using characters of the proper level.
Any mmorpg should not limit itself to one style of play, but rather be more fluid. Where many mmorpgs fail to meet the balance between the two styles of play. WoW was a solo mmorpg until end game and it took them 5 years to correct the issue (possibly due to tech issues). Other mmorpgs have many quests that require groups, but then after everyone had passed the early levels, finding groups for those quests are near impossible. Developers need to be more quick to act upon the needs of the player base.
Personally, I would love if more mmorpgs followed the approach where you can solo and earn rewards, but also group and earn xp just as efficiently as well as reap somewhat better rewards for the effort. Finding balance is what should be required of any dev team.
No, the "forced" is misleading. That's why the ""'s.
Sigh, we need to figure out a better word for this term, the old one has kinda lost it's purpose...
I apologize if I did not communicate myself very well. To me, "forced grouping" means no other choice then finding other players to advance in a game. It means in order to get past a certain point in the game (say a specific level, or to unlock a new set of skills, etc), one needs help. If I misunderstand the meaning, could I be enlightened?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I'm not sure I'd "quit right there" if the rest of the game was primo good stuff up until that point, but I'd be annoyed. I don't like being shoe-horned into anything. If it began happening regularly, I'd unbutt that A.O. real quick. LoTR was mentioned as an example of forced grouping, and needing to group to pursue the story line annoyed me when I played it. Probably contributes to why I only log on once every 6 months these days. I never know how long I'll be on at a given time, and I don't like being stuffed into a PUG to be able to go through the main content. I hate PUGs, with a flaming passion. If somebody in a zone asks really, really nicely for help with XYZ, I'll likely as not join up and help, but I tend to ignore/decline quests which require a group to complete. I like seeing grouping rewarded, but think it that the main content, main storyline should not require grouping to pursue.
Someone(OP) doesn't understand the meaning behind not forcing grouping. It's not that people don't ever want to have to group for anything ever! It's that people don't want to have to sit around, wait to form the group, IF they can form the group, and then manage to stay around long enough to make the group worth it, every time they play. Most reasonable people will want to be able to pick up and play and be able to do SOMETHING. I can't count how many times in the old days of EQ I would log in, spend my full two hours I had set aside for gaming trying to get a decent group together, and then just logging out again with nothing accomplished. I'll give you a tip, that's not fun.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
I think I know what your getting at but I'd like to phrase it slightly differently. For me, forced grouping means that everytime you log in you need to find a group to accomplish anything. OP, occasional grouping to get a quest done you need is NOT forced grouping.
"If you lived in a magical fantasy realm where there was a game where you'd ALWAYS be able to find a group, would you like it?"
Sure.
"If you lived in a magical fantasy realm where all the female avatars were controlled by actual women who looked JUST LIKE their avatar and were single and hot and lived about 5 minutes from you and were always horny, would you like it?"
Also sure.
"Do you think either of these scenarios is likely?"
The second is more likely than the first.
"Grouping" isn't a problem, at least for most people, well, at least for me. I play a multiplayer game because, duh, there's other players. "Not being able to play unless you can find a group and you usually can't" is a problem. "You joined the game two years after it shipped and now everyone is levelling their 90th alt with their guildies and has no use for non-twinked n00bs" is a problem. "The class/build/whatever you find the most fun isn't this week's 'must have' and no one wants to 'waste' a group slot on you" is a problem. "I play at 2 AM server time" is a problem.
Postulating an impossible scenario and then saying, "Well, would you like it THEN?" is a pretty poor style of debate.
I'd rather group than not group; I'd rather PLAY than not play. Typing "LFG..." for hours is Not Playing.
WoW's new Dungeon Finder is pretty amazing. So far, I've never had to wait for more than a minute to get in a group. You could probably go from 15 to max without doing anything but joining a queue, running a random dungeon, lather, rinse, repeat. Of course, this basically turns the game into one city, where you sit while waiting in the queue and run to the AH to sell your loot, eliminating huge swathes of fun (exploration, questing), but if what you want is all groups, all the time... you got it.
"Cave of Flatulance Group LF cleric, PST!"
*Insert 20 minutes of punking lawn trash while waiting for reply*
"Let me check with my guildies...OK, got one coming! He's in the Swamp of Way The Hell Over At the Other End. Can anyone port him?"
*Insert 20 minute wait*
"Great! Ok, now lets head in!"
*Insert 20 minute run to zone entrance*
"Guys, I gotta go. Company."
"Cave of Flatulance group LF Tank, PST!"
EVE Online.
And Warhammer Online in about a month, the rate things are going. (Sigh... really liked WAR, too, and it's a good example of why making a game only fun if you can find a group is a real bad design choice. WAR with 2-3 warbands clashing all over... fun. WAR with scenarios popping every 5 minutes... fun. WAR with just solo PVE? Not fun. And that means as soon as population started to drop, the drop went into a death spiral. People quit because they couldn't find a group, so it became harder to find a group, so more people quit... server merges killed guilds and shattered alliances, and people forced to pick between their Order and Chaos alts picked 'I quit', instead.)
Darkfall has two servers.
Can't think of any other halfway well known games with one server. I may be missing some, though.
I have no objection to trying out a grouping only MMO, but that is an extreme solution. That would be the PvP equivalent of Darkfall, which was designed on the premise that PvE and PvP don’t mix well, so let’s make a PvP game. Two servers could work, but they would be drastically different games as you would have to notch up the difficulty of every mob and encounter to make it a grouping game.
The way to have two paths in the same game won’t be easy, if it was someone would have done it by now. But we can see some signs of thought going into this, from WoW’s new grouping mechanic, to the old buddy system of CoH. It has been a snail’s progress which has focused on making grouping easier in solocentric MMO’s, not addressing the deeper issues.
The key to making soloing and grouping work, in the same game on the same server, is to separate the rewards for solo and grouped gaming. You can’t have solo and groups going on the same quests, for the same rewards. But if you have separate quest lines that is a lot of extra work, in a sense that is the same as having two games on one server. Remember we are thinking here about what could be done with current games, not just building from scratch. To start with giving different rewards would be a step in the right direction.
So how do you handle the different rewards? Well you could have exactly the same armour as a reward but if you did it as a group, it would give you a ‘grouping buff’. As long as you were in a group of a minimum size you get the buff. The buff only activates when in ‘grouping areas’, like a instance where you can do grouped quests. You could have a ‘grouping level’ as well as a ‘soloing level’, xp from your soloing puts up your solo level, while grouping yields ‘grouping xp’. When you are grouped it is your ‘grouping level’ that is your actual level for game purposes. This might then equate to your level if you are grouped for PvP purposes. As always there are balance issues, but you can only expect games already out to take baby steps, not do a radical redesign.
Also I see groupers as people who are more likely to join a guild, so group rewards could concentrate on boosting your guild. Things like more guild chests to a fancier castle. Then there is achievements and titles that you only get if you do something solo, but also ones that you only get if you do it in a group.
I understood what you meant, but it's a misunderstanding.
By "forced" grouping we simply mean that grouping is the more effective and preferred way of progression over soloing in all instances. Soloing is not impossible, and grouping is not the only way, but it's the best way.
I've noticed that in these kind of games, soloing is much more fun and challenging as well, since it's not really the playstyle for the majority of players. Well, that's if you like challenge.
That's not really modern "forced" grouping either. Grouping isn't *required* to do anything, but it's ultimately the best way to do anything.
Why is it keeping anyone from grouping, just because they have to play longer to group to the cap?
Are you saying you can't play the game, if grouping isnt' the fastest route to the cap? Why is that?
You're saying you played some game, and when you tried to kill a mob grouping, the game just booted you and said that's not allowed?
We're not debating over "CHOICE".
ALL games allow group and disfavor solo play.
The only thing we are debating on is what should be the fastest route to the level cap. Group or solo.
Why do you insist you have no "choice" if grouping isn't the fastest route to the level cap?
FIXED.
Now, ask yourself these questions Ihmotepp, because this is what it is for you. When a soloer wants to be equally rewarded as a grouper, all hell breaks loose; then you get narrowminded and come up with all these twisted question which you could have just asked yourself instead of pointing them at the soloers.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
O'rly? Tell me which game then where you level fastest as solo? Don't you even DARE tell me that it is so even in WoW... I highly doubt it is so even in LOTRO. Not one single MMO I have ever played, solo is the fastest. Not one!!
Now please, enlighten me, don't say it is so in every game if you can't give me lots of examples where it actually is so.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
This situation is not even close to what I think is forced grouping. Having to group to achieve certain goals within a MMO is perfectly acceptable even to someone with a soloist mentality. Forced grouping is when a game requires you to group to advance at all past a certain level (Usually right after the tutorial 'newbie' levels). The original EQ was like this for the most part past about level 15 or so for most classes. DDO was heavily like this before they revamped the game and was one of the main reasons that game almost went belly up.
Even the most die hard soloist isn't against grouping for the most part as long as it's on their terms and not forced on them by the game. People for the most part like to group as long as they get to pick the situation in which they group.
Not anymore. This was more taken for granted back in old fashioned MMO days. Now this is drastically changing.
Recent weeks different group-fanatics vs soloers discussions have convinced me that MMO's need be even more solo friendly as I now truly belive that group-fanatics are the ones who destroy ingame communities.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
Once again we have a thread where 'solo-haters' start blaming soloers for ruining "their games"; They come up with examples of bad gaming mechanics including numbers, non-immersive examples, ratings etc etc, like this is to be blamed upon the soloers.
I wonder when the group-fanatics will start to care about having fun in their MMO's. So far it seems the only fun they have is when they level faster and get better gear than soloers. They have this insane fixation upon loot, level racing with as fast as possible xp you can get. It is truly an obsession of being superior to the soloers that is definately the most important part of their games. Is that really all what an MMO has to offer for the group-fanatics?
Honestly, I really do wonder why these people are playing MMO's in the first place. One thing for sure, I am glad I am able to enjoy my MMO's without them.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I wouldn't quit unless the forced grouping continues throughout the game.
I prefer soloing. And in order to advance throughout the game you should be able to solo that all.
I don't mind if the greater rewards come froum group questing though.
Send five soldiers to capture a heavily offended objective in war, each with his/her own skill set and have them coordinate and execute their plan together.
Now send five soldiers to capture a heavily defended objective in war, none of them communicating or coordinating with each other.
Which do you think will capture the reward (objective) the team or one of the solo dudes acting independently?
To say that working with a group shouldn't allow rewards out of reach of the soloer is ludicrous.
One may argue that there are certain figures in literature and/or history that accomplished amazing things by themselves. And this is true. But therefore, if the game reflects reality, only about 1% or less of soloers should actually be able to succeed in obtaining what is possible for a team - that is what made these soloers famous, they could do what most could not.
The qq behind all of these group/soloer posts is that soloers simply want the same rewards as groupers without the group effort. The soloer cannot be satisfied with rewards that allow them to dominate solo content when there are group rewards out there that would allow them to over-dominate their solo content. The solo game's give soloers what they need to conquer the solo content - but that isn't good enough for the soloer if what they are really 'forced' to do is see group content rewards. It is simply a huge cry baby fest.
If the argument was 'solo content should be more engaging and challenging' I would agree. But the argument is 'i want groupers rewards, although they are unecessary for my solo game, so I will cry that I can't get those shiny objects by myself'.
No matter how many times I've seen this thread, it always seems to boil down to the soloer being jealous of group rewards and unsatisfied with the rewards for solo content, dispite the fact that those solo rewards are more than adequate if not overpowered for the solo game.
Stop focusing on the rewards and start complaining about the boring solo content and you will have a supporter. Stop blaming groupers for playing a group-centric game and getting rewards appropriate for their group effort. It's childish.
Well if the objective of the developers and publishers were to make a group centric game, and the majority of subscribers subscribe because it is a group centric game and a soloer then complains that the game is group centric and wants it changed - who is to blame? How's that for a reason other than your examples?
If I were to walk on a football field solo and complain that I had to face a whole team to win, is it my right to object to the rules of football not being conducive to the soloer? That seems to be your proposal.
All the groupers are saying is go play golf and stay off our football field because we like the rules as they are.
I promise you, that out there is a 17 year old who hates grouping and will make it his/her life obsession to create a solo-oriented mmo. One day you will have your game, I promise, it is how a free market works. As hard as it is for some to swallow, WoW created a solo game where previously there was none, this was emulated in other games which followed. But where they have failed is to make that solo content consistantly as engaging as the group content, and that certainly should change.
What you need to convince developers is to make that solo content more engaging, as engaging as group content. And I believe this is what you were trying to say. But I argue that 'the insane fixation on loot' is shared by groupers and soloer's alike, your real task is to convince soloer's that they don't need group rewards to dominate their content. Because, I see soloers being jealous of group rewards as more of the crux of the problem than a group superiority complex.
That's somewhat irrelevant, as we're talking about a game. Providing a fun game doesn't require realism, and in many cases realistic aspects of a game make it less fun.
Are you gonna tell players of Ninja Gaiden, Metal Gear Solid, and similar singleplayer games that they shouldn't be allowed to have fun gameplay where one soldier/ninja defeats the enemy virtually singlehandedly? Players have fun in solo gameplay, and since fun is the goal of games it's going to take a much stronger argument than "it's not realistic" to convince people that balancing these two game types is a bad idea.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Forced grouping at certain parts requires others to be at the same part as you. This just makes things tedious.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
Well if the objective of the developers and publishers were to make a group centric game, and the majority of subscribers subscribe because it is a group centric game and a soloer then complains that the game is group centric and wants it changed - who is to blame? How's that for a reason other than your examples?
If I were to walk on a football field solo and complain that I had to face a whole team to win, is it my right to object to the rules of football not being conducive to the soloer? That seems to be your proposal.
All the groupers are saying is go play golf and stay off our football field because we like the rules as they are.
I promise you, that out there is a 17 year old who hates grouping and will make it his/her life obsession to create a solo-oriented mmo. One day you will have your game, I promise, it is how a free market works. As hard as it is for some to swallow, WoW created a solo game where previously there was none, this was emulated in other games which followed. But where they have failed is to make that solo content consistantly as engaging as the group content, and that certainly should change.
What you need to convince developers is to make that solo content more engaging, as engaging as group content. And I believe this is what you were trying to say. But I argue that 'the insane fixation on loot' is shared by groupers and soloer's alike, your real task is to convince soloer's that they don't need group rewards to dominate their content. Because, I see soloers being jealous of group rewards as more of the crux of the problem than a group superiority complex.
You are doing the same; you blame soloers. When will this stop? If theres anyone to blame, it should be the gaming developers and yourself. 'More solo friendly content' has not been any issues for years. Now that the MMO genre is rapidly changing, group-fanatics have become hysterical. We who prefers to solo, have cancelled our subscriptions, for years, and answered the poll honestly (I guess) why we were cancelling. You do know most games actually ask why you are leaving?
Game developers take this into consideration, and changes their games accordingly. If people ain't interested in grouping, why should every MMO game cater this playstyle then? Time has proven to us that most of us actually prefer solo content. If theres a demand, there will be a supply. Plain & simple. I love to say this; MMO's will be even more solo friendly.
I find your accusations that soloers are jealous for irrational & utterly non-objective. I could easily say the same about groupers. That has nothing to do with the truth. How can you even say that, is a mystery to me. Well, in fact, I find that accusation lame. So lame, that I leave it with that. Too lame to bother tell you why it is not so.
My money is worth just as much for the gaming companies as yours. Even though you group-fanatics think you are 'superior' and are "owning" the MMO genre. How cute. How irrational. And how selfish & arrogant.
Well, you hysterical group-fanatics better buckle yourself up, cause there is a storm coming. Things do not look good for you in the future. It will get really ugly. Unless you are able to change with the genre. Like we modern MMO'ers are.
/bearhug
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!