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Lives | Casual = Suck at MMORPGs?
Ginkeq
Member Posts: 615
So whenever people are defending dumbed down MMORPGs, they will say:
"This game was designed for people with Lives/Casuals"
Especially when referring to games such as WoW, apparently that is a game for Casuals.
What does it really mean though, when these games like WoW have bigger time-sinks than old school MMORPGs like Everquest? Sure, EQ took a long of time to level up, but once you were 60, there was only so much to raid.
In WoW, there are so many trivial and dumbed down casual instances, you could spend all day farming gear in these dumbed down easy-mode instances.
So the time investment from many small time-sinks in WoW outweighs what time-sink was in older MMORPGs like WoW.
Sounds like some people who use these terms are simply not good at MMORPGs. They label themselves casuals because they couldn't handle more difficult PVE/PVP content that used to exist in MMORPGs. BWL, AQ, Naxx40 are all gone, because these "casuals" couldn't handle it.
But it really wasn't because they didn't have the time, it was because they sucked at the game and couldn't figure out how to get past the trash mobs in BWL.
Comments
Sounds like you might've played WoW, but quit after 40-mans were removed. Hell hath no wrath like a woman scorned... well, like a Ginkeq scorned, in this case.
I kind of enjoyed being in AQ40 and Naxx while these Casuals, AKA shitty players, were stuck in Molten Core.
Why do horrible players want to kill the same stuff as everyone else? Can't they just except the fact that their MMORPG needed to be dumbed down 500 times for them to be on the same level as semi-intelligent players.
I really pity you Ginkeq.
you can be good an any given mmo and still have a life. In a gear based mmo you will fall behind but if your good people tend to not notice. In a skill based mmo such as eve you can be casual and still kick ass.
My point in making this post was that most casuals and people with lives spend more time playing MMORPGs than those "without lives".
Then these same players whine that players "without lives" dominate the game. But it's not that they don't have lives, but that they are smarter and better players, and are capable of doing PVE/PVP that they are not capable of.
Just an excuse for their own incompetence
What?
We have discussed this Gink - EQ has more downtime than any other mmo on the market - since its inception to this day. If you can't recognize that WoW eliminated most of the time-sinks that were driving EQ players away - than you really have no grasp of mmo history.
Restating false premises in different threads will not magically create truth.
What?
We have discussed this Gink - EQ has more downtime than any other mmo on the market - since its inception to this day. If you can't recognize that WoW eliminated most of the time-sinks that were driving EQ players away - than you really have no grasp of mmo history.
Restating false premises in different threads will not magically create truth.
EQ = Most NPCs had a 1 week respawn. 1 saturday is enough to do all of your raiding (8-10 hours) then you could log off until next week.
WoW = 50-100 dumbed down and retarded instances, plus PVP arenas and battlegrounds
Can easily spend 4+ hours a day playing WoW, although you aren't doing much playing since the game has been dumbed down for these "casuals" or bad players.
Gink, not everyone is playing an MMO to 'win' it. Some play to socialize, some play to discover new things, some play to compete on various levels with other players (market, gear, notoriety, etc.). Even among the people that are playing to get to the end, not everyone is really in a rush to get there because, well... it's the end.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I'll snip the usual Ginkeq rhetoric and cut to the heart of the question.
Casual friendly gameplay is that which does not require a prohibitively large investment of hours per week, or in a consecutive block of time. It is gameplay that people can fit around their lives, rather than having to fit their lives around the gameplay.
I'll also tell you what "casual friendly" does not mean.
It doesn't mean: Easy enough so that bad players can do it.
It doesn't mean: Fast enough so that lazy players can do it.
It doesn't mean: Simple enough so that stupid players can do it.
Casual players aren't bad, lazy or stupid; we're just on our own timetable.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I find it really sad that no development company can give "the old school" UO, AC, EQ, DAoC players a game to play , and instead just keep chasing that fast buck trying to put WoW out of business. Anyone from the original EQ can tell you that in the beginning it wasnt all about the end game raid. People talk of socializing in MMOs these days think back when was the last time you had a casual conversation with someone you just met in WoW? Seriously how often do you talk to people outside of your guild? I tried WoW a couple of times and the most intelligent conversation i could get for asking a couple of questions went something like "Fuken NOOB" or "ur a newb arent ya?" , and several other variations of the web slang everyone seems so fond of these days.
Some of the best gameplay i ever experienced was sitting at a druid spire just chatting it up with people waiting on some random druid to pop in for a port. Also some of the best grouping PvE was EQ. Sure now days the long drawn out battles of the "old school" MMO people complain "OOOHHH its not SHINEY ENOUGH" or " its not fast enough GAH why cant i kill it instantly?". This type of combat had a purpose though just sitting in your group if you were the caster while everyone was resting up getting ready for the next pull just talking about random everyday things. Give me 1 example where people do this anymore in a random PU group. No the combat is so fast and furious now days you hardly have time to notice what the names of the people in your group are.
So my response to one of the posts above is that NO people don't play MMOS to socialize anymore. MMOs have become like a large multi user chat room where you occasionally have to talk to other people. With all devs trying to get the casual or solo crowd. Seriously if you want to solo all the dam time why not play a SP game? Also whats the problem with making some content harder to obtain so it takes a few days of planning ( ie the old raids in eq could sometimes take days to setup) to obtain? If i have a free weekend to play and i want to spend it going on one of the harder raids and that takes me 2 days to accomplish so be it. I wouldn't expect the company to dumb it down , make a 40 man raid into a solo-able mob ( IE the new vox and naggy in eq).
Something else that just doesn't make sense. You have a company like mythic that creates one of the better PVP games ever made ( DAoC) to come up with something as short sighted as warhammer. Why does this happen? I think they were chasing the fast buck trying to grab some of WoWs players. Every game being developed since WoW seem to be doing the same thing minus a few ( DF, MO , and EVE).
In the end i do think the casual/solo crowd ruined the MMO. There's nothing we can do about it now until some dev realizes that you don't have to have 1m+ subs to pay the bills and be a success. After all until WoW that many subs were unthinkable and the companies still survived.
I'll snip the usual Ginkeq rhetoric and cut to the heart of the question.
Casual friendly gameplay is that which does not require a prohibitively large investment of hours per week, or in a consecutive block of time. It is gameplay that people can fit around their lives, rather than having to fit their lives around the gameplay.
I'll also tell you what "casual friendly" does not mean.
It doesn't mean: Easy enough so that bad players can do it.
It doesn't mean: Fast enough so that lazy players can do it.
It doesn't mean: Simple enough so that stupid players can do it.
Casual players aren't bad, lazy or stupid; we're just on our own timetable.
While that looks good on paper.. that is not how you guys use it half of the time.
As I've said, you label the skilled players as no lives
You label yourselves as casuals who can't invest the same amount of time.
But the skilled no life players, they don't invest more time than you do. They are just better at the game. Casuals, or players with lives just whine all day that the content isn't dumb enough for them.
Fact is, casuals or players with lives, they didn't have any ambition or anything on my server when Naxx40 was endgame. They wouldn't even step foot into BWL, because they were afraid.
The difference between NO Lives and Lives is this:
No Lives - Invest 2 hour of time, clear endgame zone.
Lives - Invest 2 hours of time, wipe on random trash at the zone entrance for 1 hour, then whine in raid chat that the trash hits too hard for another hour.
This post was mainly a warning to people:
Whenever you hear people use the term casual and say that people have a life, it really means they are unskilled newbies who can't handle a game.
When they call someone a no life, they just mean that the person is better at the game than them. They label people as no lives because they don't want to admit they are not as good as other players.
I play Eve-online for about 2 hours most nights , im guessing that makes me a Casual gamer.
Im really really sorry if this makes your MMORPG life Suck
I feel that my 2 hours of game play is not really a pain to most players, but if it does again im sorry
lol
P.S. i dont have a life i just work and play my 2 hours most nights
http://www.speedtest.net/result/502097918.png
Ginkeq is the most amazing troll MMORPG.com has ever seen. Extremist troll thread after extremist troll thread, with not even a hint of understanding about what the vast majority of gamers enjoy about gaming.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Thank you, I have been feeling this way since I began to hear people screaming they are casual. I am a casual player timewise but I dislike the dumbed down gaming we have in MMOs today. I don't mind the developer giving me the content in smaller chunks of time or making raid sizes smaller (10 -25 instead of 40), this all helps with time constraints. I do have to disagree about the 40 man raids. Yes they can be completed in the time you stated but usually there are delays due to organizing and people logging in not on time etc. I believe the smaller raid size did help the casual player with time constraints. I do not agree with the dumbing down of content though, there was no need to dumb down the content in the five man dungeons. Making the dungeons easier has nothing to do with the casual player.
Content a retard can progress through does not equal casual, it only equals stupid. The five man dungeons on WoW now are designed for a moron, not a casual player now. Everyone AOEs, there is no crowd control necessary. It takes no thinking to zerg you way through today's content in WoW. I quit because I am casual but I enjoy some challenge in the time I can sit down and play. I also played Everquest casually and enjoyed having penalties for stupid game play like death penalties.
Stupid =/= Casual
Time Constraints = Casual
If you want to be labeled a retard please call yourself so and stop tarnishing a casual player like me.
Maybe you should learn to read the first post before responding.
This post wasn't aimed at people who aren't able to invest a lot of time, but to people who use the term casual as a front to hide the fact they are bad players.
For intsance, they removed BWL AQ40 And Naxx, which only took 2-3 hours of raiding. The casuals will whine that these instances required too much of a time investment,but they really removed it because the players were not skilled enough
Another non-post. It would be nice if that post count of yours meant something, but it tends to be useless and meaningless responses that don't have anything to do with the topic. Instead, it tends to be:
Look at author
Insult author
Post Message
Try a real response next time, thanks
random question:
Is it whining when you whine about other players whining?
I love posts like this. Let me understand, you are blaming the skill-level of casual players for the 40 man raids being pulled from WoW?
Of course they would suck next to someone who does nothing buy play that life-draining game. Skill is a relative concept. If yer playing 4 hours to my one, you BETTER be better than I am or you need a new hobby. :-)
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Nah, the "whine waves" are of different resonation and cancel one another out.
P.S. Not be picky, but your sig .. Amateur.
Given that your stated profession is "Writer" that's either a very unfortunate typo, or a rather witty example of self-deprecating humor. If it's the latter, then kudos for the intellectualism .. if it's the former, then I'd change it.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Either it means something else or it's a line of humor.
How can you be a professional amateur? Or it could be both, an attempt at self-deprecating humor and a typo. Hehe
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Nah, the "whine waves" are of different resonation and cancel one another out.
P.S. Not be picky, but your sig .. Amateur.
Given that your stated profession is "Writer" that's either a very unfortunate typo, or a rather witty example of self-deprecating humor. If it's the latter, then kudos for the intellectualism .. if it's the former, then I'd change it.
lol in all the time I've had that no one has ever caught that! lmao kudos to you, mate!
Now I have to come up with a new signature /shakes fist! :-)
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
I kind of enjoyed being in AQ40 and Naxx while these Casuals, AKA shitty players, were stuck in Molten Core.
Why do horrible players want to kill the same stuff as everyone else? Can't they just except the fact that their MMORPG needed to be dumbed down 500 times for them to be on the same level as semi-intelligent players.
so just because they weren't as "leet" as you they are shitty?
Basically the console crowd has started taking over the mmorpg genre. Instead of learning how to play the game people don't want to take the time to learn, they want instant gratification. And shiny, pretty, big things. If devs want money they are going to have to cater to the lowest common denominator. Same with hollywood, music, entertainment, etc..
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
I kind of enjoyed being in AQ40 and Naxx while these Casuals, AKA shitty players, were stuck in Molten Core.
Why do horrible players want to kill the same stuff as everyone else? Can't they just except the fact that their MMORPG needed to be dumbed down 500 times for them to be on the same level as semi-intelligent players.
so just because they weren't as "leet" as you they are shitty?
Not only are they shitty, but they have no motivation or will. In WoW, it's hard to find players who want to do cutting edge encounters. People just want ez-mode all the time.
People on my server were stuck in MC. I imagine those guilds had shitty casuals who said "BWL is too tough for me" and refused to zone in. It didn't have anything to do with time investment though, they just suck at games and want hand-outs.
What is the deal with Raids anyway? The problem i see is that the casual crowd complain that they want to be able to do it with the least amount or people possible in the least amount of time. Well i have hardly ever participated or saw or heard of a raid that lasted more than a couple of hours. Sure there is a little prep time involved when trying to organize 40+ people, but try doing that back in the days without Vent or Team speak. I personally do not consider myself a hardcore raid type because i do not like what raids have become post WoW. Which in point of fact is the same zone over and over , go to next "UBER LEWTZ" zone and repeat.
Raids were fun back when it took 3 days or so to put together for the simple fact that you could cater to everyone in your guild. You could set a time that was good for everyone ( yes even those people that work and have a life). Which changes guilds all together now to. Seriously have you scrolled through some of the supposed "hard core" guilds for WoW? Some of these new guilds want you to be in game every minute of every day. Who in there right mind does something like that unless you actually don't have a life. Why in the hell would any sane person want to spend 60+ hours a week in an MMO just so they can be part of the UBER crowd. Sadly this is what raids have become.
Raids have also become way to easy. They isn't a random quality to the end content anymore. You don't have that random roaming mob to worry about. All instanced now with the same thing in the exact place it was the last time you were there. Today a well organized group of people could look up a guide on any raid instance in WoW, and so long as they followed it would have no trouble in completing it the first time. Yes the raid bosses are well scripted and take a strategy to drop , but its the SAME strategy EVERY time you do it. EQ being 1 of the first games to put in raids had a fix to this with random roaming mobs that could come out of nowhere at any time to screw up your day. Yes they were not well scripted the graphics suck now, but i have yet to see another game match this simple mechanic. People don't like change though. Imagine the uproar if say 1 of the high end raid instances in WoW were to randomly change every time it was completed. The players would be up in arms over it. That there beloved "UBER LEWTZ" zone isn't the same as it was the last time. That they couldn't use the same formula as last time.
So yes i say that the old raid, and the old game play for that matter is gone for the simple fact that people don't like change. They want it NOW with the minimal amount of time invested.
Casual = Has family, work, other things going on in life and can only play a short amount of time a day
Suck at MMORPGs = Someone who complains that he is too leet for casual gamers in WoW and the game has been dumbed down.
I got two questions for the OP. First is, if all the shitty gamers (casuals) are in MC, why do you care? It is not like they are interfering with your gameplay at end game. Second question, and this is one I truly need an answer to, have you ever left your parents' basement and seen the light of the sun?