Perfect example of broken record. If a person has no problem with item malls, it's because they are buying an advantage. Again, no amount of fact will break through your wall of myth and misinformation, and we won't get anything but a regurgitation of the same talking points over and over from you.
Broken record.
Basically, the whole "but I really want to understand, guys" was a veiled excuse for another thread to preach against the devil's shop and there was really no interest in understanding anything at all. Well, I guess we can be happy that you made your intent clear early. It saves us all a lot of time.
Huh? What myth? People are buying advantages, that's clear. You're starting to sound like the broken record to me.
Seriously, specific examples.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
If its f2p then item malls are fine. I would certainly never play a subscription mmo with item malls. I would have less of a problem with it if it were just buying access to more content, like a mini-expansion. I would also like to see all purchased items be visibly different from world items. If you don't see a problem with buying an advantage, you shouldn't mind it being visible to others.
Atlantica Online is a good example of a game with an item mall that is very good. You aren't forced to buy anything to be competitive, they just give small boosts in PvP which is seperated into divisions based on win/loss so it doesn't matter too much, you just won't earn PvP points as fast as you could probably. You can't blame companies for finding different ways to make money for their games.
I don't blame the companies for trying to bank, I blame the fools who are suckered into doing it.
For me, even what you described is gamebreaking. Some players having a distinct advantage over others based on how much money is shelled out.
I'll never play an item mall game obviously, I'm just baffled by people who do, I don't understand how paying for virtual items or advantages is fun or engaging.
Uh, so how is that $15 subscriptiobn and 50 box fee doing? Do you play MMO or just wander the boards? You're "paying" regardless, and to be honest will probably spend less in a free MMO even if you wanted to buy some thing here and there. Although, as you said, paying for "vritual items" isn't fun.
Right, but everyone paying a flat fee for the same equal footing is different than baiting people with items for an extra 20 bucks to gain an upperhand. Then it becomes a game of who wants to spend the most to get ahead.
If item shops are "pure greed", selling games at all is "pure greed". :P Tons of developers make games for the love of making games, but it wouldn't happen to the same degree if there wasn't money in it.
The only time item malls are bad is if they compromise gameplay. Cosmetic items obviously don't. Lateral advancement items don't either.
In League of Legends you can only pick one hero per match. Your choice of heroes is limited to the ones you've bought (well you can unlock them without paying too, but let's pretend you can't.) Each hero is intended to be balanced with one another, so paying more money doesn't make you stronger, it just unlocks different playstyle options.
It's not difficult to imagine RPGs using a similar approach, with multiple Armor Sets being purchased in a store, and each Armor Set dictates your character's abilities (so they're basically unlocking different playstyles.) It's a little better suited for a more lateral-progression type of game (like if Darkfall was more like Planetside), but it works perfectly well in typical progression too (the armor enables the playstyle; your Time Investment advances your power within that playstyle.)
Er..well...substitute "armor sets" with "Classes" in my previous example and you have DDO (although I'm not sure what non-lateral items DDO offers in the store nowadays.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Perfect example of broken record. If a person has no problem with item malls, it's because they are buying an advantage. Again, no amount of fact will break through your wall of myth and misinformation, and we won't get anything but a regurgitation of the same talking points over and over from you.
Broken record.
Basically, the whole "but I really want to understand, guys" was a veiled excuse for another thread to preach against the devil's shop and there was really no interest in understanding anything at all. Well, I guess we can be happy that you made your intent clear early. It saves us all a lot of time.
Huh? What myth? People are buying advantages, that's clear. You're starting to sound like the broken record to me.
Seriously, specific examples.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
They also have many cosmetic items in the item mall.
Now, why is this harmful to the game. Do not be subjective.
You should touch on how it is harmful to an aging and top heavy game.
You should touch on how it is harmful to the established population.
You should touch on how a significant number are given away as veteran rewards and why it is good or bad to give veterans rewards in respect to the health of the game.
You should touch on how xp potions effect the endgame balance.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game? Especially a subscription based game. Even if they are cosmetic items, shouldn't these be available to everyone? I mean it's just pure greed, I don't understand how anyone thinks they are a good idea. I can understand if you have some disposable income why you might like a vanity pet or something, but then, the item itself becomes somewhat worthless doesn't it? If anyone can just toss a few bucks to get it? If they aren't cosmetic, the problem becomes more obvious. The game then becomes who is willing to spend the most money to be the most competitive, but I don't understand why you would even play the game to begin with if you're just buying victories? Doesn't that practically defeat the purpose of playing an MMO? It's like paying for a game over screen, or an IWin button. I don't understand anyone who supports an item mall, someone help me understand.
People want to be different from other players in MMORPGs. They want to be better than other players and have stuff other players don't have, and show off with said stuff. That's why they pay gold farmers for gold, so they can use the gold to get stuff. Or why they buy accounts or items on ebay or other places. And if you got some money (adult with a job or a rich kid) you might be willing to spend tons of money on the item shop, since that allows you to, as said, show off with stuff, be "better" than others, have stuff they don't. And those people then support item shops as well.
Just think about the people in WoW who stand for hours and hours on places where they hope to be admired by other players. Those are also the people who pay tons of money for rare loot cards, or stuff on item shops.
Perfect example of broken record. If a person has no problem with item malls, it's because they are buying an advantage. Again, no amount of fact will break through your wall of myth and misinformation, and we won't get anything but a regurgitation of the same talking points over and over from you.
Broken record.
Basically, the whole "but I really want to understand, guys" was a veiled excuse for another thread to preach against the devil's shop and there was really no interest in understanding anything at all. Well, I guess we can be happy that you made your intent clear early. It saves us all a lot of time.
Huh? What myth? People are buying advantages, that's clear. You're starting to sound like the broken record to me.
Seriously, specific examples.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
Now, why is this harmful to the game. Do not be subjective.
You should touch on how it is harmful to an aging and top heavy game.
You should touch on how it is harmful to the established population.
You should touch on how a significant number are given away as veteran rewards and why it is okay to give veterans rewards to the health of the game.
You should touch on how xp potions effect the endgame balance.
Well, that's selling powerleveling.
Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks. I don't know, maybe you don't see it that way. I do though. It somewhat ruins the game's integrity regardless if the intention was to help new players. Maybe you can somewhat understand what I'm trying to say here?
I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out.
In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them.
Perfect example of broken record. If a person has no problem with item malls, it's because they are buying an advantage. Again, no amount of fact will break through your wall of myth and misinformation, and we won't get anything but a regurgitation of the same talking points over and over from you.
Broken record.
Basically, the whole "but I really want to understand, guys" was a veiled excuse for another thread to preach against the devil's shop and there was really no interest in understanding anything at all. Well, I guess we can be happy that you made your intent clear early. It saves us all a lot of time.
Huh? What myth? People are buying advantages, that's clear. You're starting to sound like the broken record to me.
Seriously, specific examples.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
Now, why is this harmful to the game. Do not be subjective.
You should touch on how it is harmful to an aging and top heavy game.
You should touch on how it is harmful to the established population.
You should touch on how a significant number are given away as veteran rewards and why it is okay to give veterans rewards to the health of the game.
You should touch on how xp potions effect the endgame balance.
Well, that's selling powerleveling.
Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks. I don't know, maybe you don't see it that way. I do though. It somewhat ruins the game's integrity regardless if the intention was to help new players. Maybe you can somewhat understand what I'm trying to say here?
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2.
Argue about measurable metrics. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2. Pick a measurable metric. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Got a point here.
How do you think people receive the empty early zones of games like EQ2 and FFXI?
Everyone else is already at the end, and the *smart* thing to do is offer a speedy route to the end to join them... and doesn't matter if it's a freebie or you gotta pay for it - the vets are gonna scream "no fair" either way - but that is the reality of the situation.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2. Pick a measurable metric. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Got a point here.
How do you think people receive the empty early zones of games like EQ2 and FFXI?
Everyone else is already at the end, and the *smart* thing to do is offer a speedy route to the end to join them... and doesn't matter if it's a freebie or you gotta pay for it - the vets are gonna scream "no fair" either way - but that is the reality of the situation.
Vets get quite a few free exp potions(and some other item mall items) for each character in EQ2.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
Now, why is this harmful to the game. Do not be subjective.
You should touch on how it is harmful to an aging and top heavy game.
You should touch on how it is harmful to the established population.
You should touch on how a significant number are given away as veteran rewards and why it is okay to give veterans rewards to the health of the game.
You should touch on how xp potions effect the endgame balance.
Well, that's selling powerleveling.
Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks. I don't know, maybe you don't see it that way. I do though. It somewhat ruins the game's integrity regardless if the intention was to help new players. Maybe you can somewhat understand what I'm trying to say here?
I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out.
In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them.
Since your argument very eerily echoes Ihmotepp's (almost to the word in some cases) I went back to try to find those threads to link them for you. It was a painful experience so after a while I simply gave up, but will try to look again later because I think a lot of very valid and useful points were raised on both sides.
"Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks."
The XP Potions have been available in-game for almost five years as a Scavenger Hunt reward. They are also given out as veteran rewards. You get 3 potions at 1 week, 3 at six months and 3 at 12 months. You also get tradeskill xp boost potions along the way as well.
Is your issue with XP potions? If so, that's not a flaw of item malls but of a standard game item and a whole other topic entirely.
Now, here's the big question: In a PvE game, what difference does it make what level the other guy is?
"I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out."
Maybe you are playing for some sense of accomplishment from grinding through levels but not everyone is. You simply cannot transfer your reason for playing onto everyone else and use that as a basis for your argument for whether a business model is 'bad' or 'game-breaking'. It may not be a business model that you like, but that is solely subjective and not proof that something actually is bad for the game or game-breaking.
"In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them."
It seems like your issue is that someone has something that you don't. You haven't presented any other problem with the XP potions or items malls other than that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2.
Argue about measurable metrics. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Simply put, it devalues your levels. Especially for those who spent three times as many hours doing it.
The medal of honor wouldn't be quite as shiny if everyone were handed one would it?
Finish the argument. What does devaluing of levels result in that is quantifiable? Developers themselves constantly reduce the "value" of levels by reducing the exp curves as the number of levels increase. Everything in a theme park style game is constantly being devaluled by some metric.
What quantifiably harmful effects to the game are there from cash shop exp potions on the game? "I don't feel good about people doing things easier than I did 3 years ago" is not measurable in terms of impact on the game and there doesn't appear to be any serious negative long term effect to "devaluing" old content, as it is standard business practice.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Mmos need money. Item malls make money. So in the simplest terms, yes.
Yet, there will be many hystrioinic nerds to dispute this based on no evidence what so ever. I suppose item malls undermine their false sense of accomplishment in game somehow. In reality, there is no accomplishment at all other than to be entertained. If you can achieve this without constantly comparing yourself to what others are doing you win
Since your argument very eerily echoes Ihmotepp's (almost to the word in some cases) I went back to try to find those threads to link them for you. It was a painful experience so after a while I simply gave up, but will try to look again later because I think a lot of very valid and useful points were raised on both sides.
"Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks."
The XP Potions have been available in-game for almost five years as a Scavenger Hunt reward. They are also given out as veteran rewards. You get 3 potions at 1 week, 3 at six months and 3 at 12 months. You also get tradeskill xp boost potions along the way as well.
Is your issue with XP potions? If so, that's not a flaw of item malls but of a standard game item and a whole other topic entirely.
Now, here's the big question: In a PvE game, what difference does it make what level the other guy is?
"I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out."
Maybe you are playing for some sense of accomplishment from grinding through levels but not everyone is. You simply cannot transfer your reason for playing onto everyone else and use that as a basis for your argument for whether a business model is 'bad' or 'game-breaking'. It may not be a business model that you like, but that is solely subjective and not proof that something actually is bad for the game or game-breaking.
"In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them."
It seems like your issue is that someone has something that you don't. You haven't presented any other problem with the XP potions or items malls other than that.
Anything you can buy with RMT becomes a flaw imo. But when it comes to a distinct advantage, XP pots are obviously one of those advantages.
When you're playing an MMO, you're interacting with many people, and in some forms are competing with them if not only in pvp. Advantages are advantages no matter how you want to twist the idea they're not damaging the game, because they truly are. They turn what you put in 3 months for, into 2 weeks for someone else. That's devaluing your character and any time you put forth. I don't see how you can't understand what I'm saying here.
It'd be like working for a month and then watching the guy across the way work for 1 week doing less and getting paid the same thing you just got paid. Seem a bit unfair? That's because it is.
Although your point about me playing for different reasons I understand. Maybe some players only want to pvp and skip the grind. I suppose I just want to be on equal footing, that's why I can't ever get into playing an item mall game.
Since your argument very eerily echoes Ihmotepp's (almost to the word in some cases) I went back to try to find those threads to link them for you. It was a painful experience so after a while I simply gave up, but will try to look again later because I think a lot of very valid and useful points were raised on both sides.
"Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks."
The XP Potions have been available in-game for almost five years as a Scavenger Hunt reward. They are also given out as veteran rewards. You get 3 potions at 1 week, 3 at six months and 3 at 12 months. You also get tradeskill xp boost potions along the way as well.
Is your issue with XP potions? If so, that's not a flaw of item malls but of a standard game item and a whole other topic entirely.
Now, here's the big question: In a PvE game, what difference does it make what level the other guy is?
"I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out."
Maybe you are playing for some sense of accomplishment from grinding through levels but not everyone is. You simply cannot transfer your reason for playing onto everyone else and use that as a basis for your argument for whether a business model is 'bad' or 'game-breaking'. It may not be a business model that you like, but that is solely subjective and not proof that something actually is bad for the game or game-breaking.
"In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them."
It seems like your issue is that someone has something that you don't. You haven't presented any other problem with the XP potions or items malls other than that.
Anything you can buy with RMT becomes a flaw imo. But when it comes to a distinct advantage, XP pots are obviously one of those advantages.
When you're playing an MMO, you're interacting with many people, and in some forms are competing with them if not only in pvp. Advantages are advantages no matter how you want to twist the idea they're not damaging the game, because they truly are. They turn what you put in 3 months for, into 2 weeks for someone else. That's devaluing your character and any time you put forth. I don't see how you can't understand what I'm saying here.
It'd be like working for a month and then watching the guy across the way work for 1 week doing less and getting paid the same thing you just got paid. Seem a bit unfair? That's because it is.
Although your point about me playing for different reasons I understand. Maybe some players only want to pvp and skip the grind. I suppose I just want to be on equal footing, that's why I can't ever get into playing an item mall game.
Again, quantify how it is harming game. Lowing subscriber numbers? Lowering revenues? Less content generation? Lowering of player retention? You keep stating your opinion on item malls as fact without defining the harm it does overall. People understand that you do not think an item mall is fair. We've been seeing these devaluation arguments for years as the nature of these games is to devalue old content.
Now, how is an item mall harmful to a MMO based upon the CCG business model. We'll even give the game support for real cash auction house and the ability to trade with other players.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Since your argument very eerily echoes Ihmotepp's (almost to the word in some cases) I went back to try to find those threads to link them for you. It was a painful experience so after a while I simply gave up, but will try to look again later because I think a lot of very valid and useful points were raised on both sides.
"Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks."
The XP Potions have been available in-game for almost five years as a Scavenger Hunt reward. They are also given out as veteran rewards. You get 3 potions at 1 week, 3 at six months and 3 at 12 months. You also get tradeskill xp boost potions along the way as well.
Is your issue with XP potions? If so, that's not a flaw of item malls but of a standard game item and a whole other topic entirely.
Now, here's the big question: In a PvE game, what difference does it make what level the other guy is?
"I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out."
Maybe you are playing for some sense of accomplishment from grinding through levels but not everyone is. You simply cannot transfer your reason for playing onto everyone else and use that as a basis for your argument for whether a business model is 'bad' or 'game-breaking'. It may not be a business model that you like, but that is solely subjective and not proof that something actually is bad for the game or game-breaking.
"In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them."
It seems like your issue is that someone has something that you don't. You haven't presented any other problem with the XP potions or items malls other than that.
Anything you can buy with RMT becomes a flaw imo. But when it comes to a distinct advantage, XP pots are obviously one of those advantages.
When you're playing an MMO, you're interacting with many people, and in some forms are competing with them if not only in pvp. Advantages are advantages no matter how you want to twist the idea they're not damaging the game, because they truly are. They turn what you put in 3 months for, into 2 weeks for someone else. That's devaluing your character and any time you put forth. I don't see how you can't understand what I'm saying here.
Because you are still attributing that to item malls even after I explained to you in detail that these are regularly accessible in-game items.
It'd be like working for a month and then watching the guy across the way work for 1 week doing less and getting paid the same thing you just got paid. Seem a bit unfair? That's because it is.
So, you're against others having more time to play, as well?
Although your point about me playing for different reasons I understand. Maybe some players only want to pvp and skip the grind. I suppose I just want to be on equal footing, that's why I can't ever get into playing an item mall game.
You're still basing your argument on everyone being involved in some kind of race. You certainly are, but most of the people you are 'competing' with aren't racing you and more than likely don't even know you exist.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Because you are still attributing that to item malls even after I explained to you in detail that these are regularly accessible in-game items. Well, not all IM items are like this, but even if they were, you're still putting in money for an in-game advantage. It just isn't fair imo, I guess I'll have to leave it at that. It's unfair. And I wouldn't want to play a game that is unfair. So, you're against others having more time to play, as well? I'm against players having advantages over others based on how much money they're willing to spend. You're still basing your argument on everyone being involved in some kind of race. You certainly are, but most of the people you are 'competing' with aren't racing you and more than likely don't even know you exist. That's not my argument, it's not about it being a race, it's that some players have to work harder for the same ends, depending on how much cash you're dishing out. Doesn't make for much of a game. You're both traveling toward the same finish line but one person gets a nitro boost. RMT is just somewhat invasive of a game's integrity. I don't really know how else I can convey this to you. So I'll just leave it at this, I believe RMT is unfair to other players.
Because you are still attributing that to item malls even after I explained to you in detail that these are regularly accessible in-game items. Well, not all IM items are like this, but even if they were, you're still putting in money for an in-game advantage. It just isn't fair imo, I guess I'll have to leave it at that. It's unfair. And I wouldn't want to play a game that is unfair. So, you're against others having more time to play, as well? I'm against players having advantages over others based on how much money they're willing to spend. You're still basing your argument on everyone being involved in some kind of race. You certainly are, but most of the people you are 'competing' with aren't racing you and more than likely don't even know you exist. That's not my argument, it's not about it being a race, it's that some players have to work harder for the same ends, depending on how much cash you're dishing out. Doesn't make for much of a game. You're both traveling toward the same finish line but one person gets a nitro boost. RMT is just somewhat invasive of a game's integrity. I don't really know how else I can convey this to you. So I'll just leave it at this, I believe RMT is unfair to other players.
Ok, it looks like you've abandoned the EQ2 XP Potion and went back to Item Malls are unfair, based on the false premise that all item malls offer items that affect this race to the end.
You say that it's not a race to you and then state "You're both traveling toward the same finish line but one person gets a nitro boost."
Ihmotepp, you got me. Fool me once, shame on me.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ok, it looks like you've abandoned the EQ2 XP Potion and went back to Item Malls are unfair, based on the false premise that all item malls offer items that affect this race to the end.
You say that you don't feel it's a race and then state " You're both traveling toward the same finish line but one person gets a nitro boost."
Holy crap... it's an Ihmo alt.
When I said I don't consider it a race, I meant it's not about who gets there first. It's about what it takes to get there. Item malls make it much easier to get there. That was my point. The EQ xp item was just one example of how RMT offers a distinct advantage. I wasn't hanging on that as my main point. The main point is Item malls offer players advantages over others, as long as you're willing to pay. Not my cup of tea.
When I said I don't consider it a race, I meant it's not about who gets there first. It's about what it takes to get there. Item malls make it much easier to get there. That was my point. The EQ xp item was just one example of how RMT offers a distinct advantage. I wasn't hanging on that as my main point. The main point is Item malls offer players advantages over others, as long as you're willing to pay. Not my cup of tea.
F2P games attract different types of player than P2P I think.
Mostly, the "hey, its free" type. They will play it and won't even care that they are at a disadvantage (compared to someone using the cash shop) because hey, its free. I tend to see that a lot. "its just a game, who cares if I level slower, I still enjoy it", or the popular "its just a small boost to damage, its not even that strong, it doesn't have a huge impact on pvp".
I wont touch any game that has a cash shop with a ten foot pole, but I can understand how someone that doesn't have a lot of money to spend might want to play one. I can also easily understand how someone with wayyy too much money to spend might want to play one xD.
To simplify, I think F2P attract the "extremes" of the spectrum, those that don't really want to pay, and those that want to invest a lot. On the other hand, P2P attract the middle of the spectrum.
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2.
Argue about measurable metrics. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Simply put, it devalues your levels. Especially for those who spent three times as many hours doing it.
The medal of honor wouldn't be quite as shiny if everyone were handed one would it?
Finish the argument. What does devaluing of levels result in that is quantifiable? Developers themselves constantly reduce the "value" of levels by reducing the exp curves as the number of levels increase. Everything in a theme park style game is constantly being devaluled by some metric.
What quantifiably harmful effects to the game are there from cash shop exp potions on the game? "I don't feel good about people doing things easier than I did 3 years ago" is not measurable in terms of impact on the game and there doesn't appear to be any serious negative long term effect to "devaluing" old content, as it is standard business practice.
Yeah I agree. I personally wouldn't mind if they let people purchase a max level character legit. You can pretty much do this in EVE Online. Doesn't harm the game at all when it's developer sanctioned.
I don't think an item mall kills every game by itself. It really depends on the style of game.
Take Dark Orbit. The item mall itself is irrelevant since the advantages are trivial. However, the subscription bonus of removing all risk from the game essentially makes the game not worth playing both for subscribers and non-subscribers alike.
When I think of a disadvantage especially in an MMO that has say a cash shop whether its P2P or F2P I think of a combat / gear advantage in PVP. I hardly consider an XP Potion so someone can level a bit faster or level to keep up with his friends who play more or so they can get their Alt to where their main is an advantage. Its not like games are a rat race unless your one of those that likes to rat race to show off epeen I hardly see the reason to be concerned. It should be about your Journey not Player X's journey.
I mean now if they're selling say Potions of God where they gain all sorts of actual real advantages over players then I can see the boo hoo but..seriously? XP Potions? Terrible example of bad item shops.
The worst item shops are ones where the game is so heavily relant on it that you can not enjoy the game without atleast buying a few items a month off of. Korean F2P games tend to lean heavily to this particular method but so far most of the US versions of games with Cash Shops are pretty simplistic.
Cash Shops in P2P's seem to really just be a bit of extra revenue that can be used to fund the game (except I do believe WoW's Pet Cash shop is completely a rip off and for the Greed their prices are just Greed to the max). Even if you don't see it as funding the game it is. It keeps investors and bosses happy and their happiness translates down into people's paychecks and down into approvals for Expansions and free Content. They're not going to fund more content creation for a game that can't make money and shows little signs of growth.
Having a leveling advantage over another person is just a ridiculous example of Cash Shop issues. There's so many other ways people can gain an advantage atleast with a cash shop XP potion it levels the playing field a bit for late comers, those that aren't around for when xp exploits happen, or for those that don't have the time to dedicate as much as others. Its about the journey you take to get to end game...havign a potion to help doesn't really change how you got there.
Of course using Everquest 2's potions as an example is just even laughable since they give those things out like candy especially if you ra long time subscriber. I think one of my original EQ2 characters (who ive not played in a while) has atleast 20 XP boost items that I got for free. Now if Sony starts selling raid gear or mass amount sof items that normally you'd have to buy from crafters...thats where the Cash Shop has gone to far in a P2P.
Selling armor, weapons, and major stat boosting potions(with no way to get them in game except through extreme measures) is wehre I draw the line at F2P cash shops.
I'd say this argument or debate is fail because of the Poor Examples and extreme Bias of the OP but it is oddly an interesting debate to read since plenty of others recongize the fail even if they too most likely do not care for Item Malls.
Without a lot of words, debate or reason. I simply do not like item malls. Do I play them yes, but I would much rather play p2p and more willing to dish out coin for a subscription, or even a premium account.
Comments
Perfect example of broken record. If a person has no problem with item malls, it's because they are buying an advantage. Again, no amount of fact will break through your wall of myth and misinformation, and we won't get anything but a regurgitation of the same talking points over and over from you.
Broken record.
Basically, the whole "but I really want to understand, guys" was a veiled excuse for another thread to preach against the devil's shop and there was really no interest in understanding anything at all. Well, I guess we can be happy that you made your intent clear early. It saves us all a lot of time.
Huh? What myth? People are buying advantages, that's clear. You're starting to sound like the broken record to me.
Seriously, specific examples.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
I don't blame the companies for trying to bank, I blame the fools who are suckered into doing it.
For me, even what you described is gamebreaking. Some players having a distinct advantage over others based on how much money is shelled out.
I'll never play an item mall game obviously, I'm just baffled by people who do, I don't understand how paying for virtual items or advantages is fun or engaging.
Uh, so how is that $15 subscriptiobn and 50 box fee doing? Do you play MMO or just wander the boards? You're "paying" regardless, and to be honest will probably spend less in a free MMO even if you wanted to buy some thing here and there. Although, as you said, paying for "vritual items" isn't fun.
Right, but everyone paying a flat fee for the same equal footing is different than baiting people with items for an extra 20 bucks to gain an upperhand. Then it becomes a game of who wants to spend the most to get ahead.
If item shops are "pure greed", selling games at all is "pure greed". :P Tons of developers make games for the love of making games, but it wouldn't happen to the same degree if there wasn't money in it.
The only time item malls are bad is if they compromise gameplay. Cosmetic items obviously don't. Lateral advancement items don't either.
In League of Legends you can only pick one hero per match. Your choice of heroes is limited to the ones you've bought (well you can unlock them without paying too, but let's pretend you can't.) Each hero is intended to be balanced with one another, so paying more money doesn't make you stronger, it just unlocks different playstyle options.
It's not difficult to imagine RPGs using a similar approach, with multiple Armor Sets being purchased in a store, and each Armor Set dictates your character's abilities (so they're basically unlocking different playstyles.) It's a little better suited for a more lateral-progression type of game (like if Darkfall was more like Planetside), but it works perfectly well in typical progression too (the armor enables the playstyle; your Time Investment advances your power within that playstyle.)
Er..well...substitute "armor sets" with "Classes" in my previous example and you have DDO (although I'm not sure what non-lateral items DDO offers in the store nowadays.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Perfect example of broken record. If a person has no problem with item malls, it's because they are buying an advantage. Again, no amount of fact will break through your wall of myth and misinformation, and we won't get anything but a regurgitation of the same talking points over and over from you.
Broken record.
Basically, the whole "but I really want to understand, guys" was a veiled excuse for another thread to preach against the devil's shop and there was really no interest in understanding anything at all. Well, I guess we can be happy that you made your intent clear early. It saves us all a lot of time.
Huh? What myth? People are buying advantages, that's clear. You're starting to sound like the broken record to me.
Seriously, specific examples.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
They also have many cosmetic items in the item mall.
Now, why is this harmful to the game. Do not be subjective.
You should touch on how it is harmful to an aging and top heavy game.
You should touch on how it is harmful to the established population.
You should touch on how a significant number are given away as veteran rewards and why it is good or bad to give veterans rewards in respect to the health of the game.
You should touch on how xp potions effect the endgame balance.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
People want to be different from other players in MMORPGs. They want to be better than other players and have stuff other players don't have, and show off with said stuff. That's why they pay gold farmers for gold, so they can use the gold to get stuff. Or why they buy accounts or items on ebay or other places. And if you got some money (adult with a job or a rich kid) you might be willing to spend tons of money on the item shop, since that allows you to, as said, show off with stuff, be "better" than others, have stuff they don't. And those people then support item shops as well.
Just think about the people in WoW who stand for hours and hours on places where they hope to be admired by other players. Those are also the people who pay tons of money for rare loot cards, or stuff on item shops.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Perfect example of broken record. If a person has no problem with item malls, it's because they are buying an advantage. Again, no amount of fact will break through your wall of myth and misinformation, and we won't get anything but a regurgitation of the same talking points over and over from you.
Broken record.
Basically, the whole "but I really want to understand, guys" was a veiled excuse for another thread to preach against the devil's shop and there was really no interest in understanding anything at all. Well, I guess we can be happy that you made your intent clear early. It saves us all a lot of time.
Huh? What myth? People are buying advantages, that's clear. You're starting to sound like the broken record to me.
Seriously, specific examples.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
Now, why is this harmful to the game. Do not be subjective.
You should touch on how it is harmful to an aging and top heavy game.
You should touch on how it is harmful to the established population.
You should touch on how a significant number are given away as veteran rewards and why it is okay to give veterans rewards to the health of the game.
You should touch on how xp potions effect the endgame balance.
Well, that's selling powerleveling.
Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks. I don't know, maybe you don't see it that way. I do though. It somewhat ruins the game's integrity regardless if the intention was to help new players. Maybe you can somewhat understand what I'm trying to say here?
I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out.
In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them.
Perfect example of broken record. If a person has no problem with item malls, it's because they are buying an advantage. Again, no amount of fact will break through your wall of myth and misinformation, and we won't get anything but a regurgitation of the same talking points over and over from you.
Broken record.
Basically, the whole "but I really want to understand, guys" was a veiled excuse for another thread to preach against the devil's shop and there was really no interest in understanding anything at all. Well, I guess we can be happy that you made your intent clear early. It saves us all a lot of time.
Huh? What myth? People are buying advantages, that's clear. You're starting to sound like the broken record to me.
Seriously, specific examples.
Just as a for instance doesn't EQ2 sell XP potion pots?
Now, why is this harmful to the game. Do not be subjective.
You should touch on how it is harmful to an aging and top heavy game.
You should touch on how it is harmful to the established population.
You should touch on how a significant number are given away as veteran rewards and why it is okay to give veterans rewards to the health of the game.
You should touch on how xp potions effect the endgame balance.
Well, that's selling powerleveling.
Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks. I don't know, maybe you don't see it that way. I do though. It somewhat ruins the game's integrity regardless if the intention was to help new players. Maybe you can somewhat understand what I'm trying to say here?
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2.
Argue about measurable metrics. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Got a point here.
How do you think people receive the empty early zones of games like EQ2 and FFXI?
Everyone else is already at the end, and the *smart* thing to do is offer a speedy route to the end to join them... and doesn't matter if it's a freebie or you gotta pay for it - the vets are gonna scream "no fair" either way - but that is the reality of the situation.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Got a point here.
How do you think people receive the empty early zones of games like EQ2 and FFXI?
Everyone else is already at the end, and the *smart* thing to do is offer a speedy route to the end to join them... and doesn't matter if it's a freebie or you gotta pay for it - the vets are gonna scream "no fair" either way - but that is the reality of the situation.
Vets get quite a few free exp potions(and some other item mall items) for each character in EQ2.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2.
Argue about measurable metrics. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Simply put, it devalues your levels. Especially for those who spent three times as many hours doing it.
The medal of honor wouldn't be quite as shiny if everyone were handed one would it?
Now, why is this harmful to the game. Do not be subjective.
You should touch on how it is harmful to an aging and top heavy game.
You should touch on how it is harmful to the established population.
You should touch on how a significant number are given away as veteran rewards and why it is okay to give veterans rewards to the health of the game.
You should touch on how xp potions effect the endgame balance.
Well, that's selling powerleveling.
Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks. I don't know, maybe you don't see it that way. I do though. It somewhat ruins the game's integrity regardless if the intention was to help new players. Maybe you can somewhat understand what I'm trying to say here?
I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out.
In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them.
Since your argument very eerily echoes Ihmotepp's (almost to the word in some cases) I went back to try to find those threads to link them for you. It was a painful experience so after a while I simply gave up, but will try to look again later because I think a lot of very valid and useful points were raised on both sides.
"Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks."
The XP Potions have been available in-game for almost five years as a Scavenger Hunt reward. They are also given out as veteran rewards. You get 3 potions at 1 week, 3 at six months and 3 at 12 months. You also get tradeskill xp boost potions along the way as well.
Is your issue with XP potions? If so, that's not a flaw of item malls but of a standard game item and a whole other topic entirely.
Now, here's the big question: In a PvE game, what difference does it make what level the other guy is?
"I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out."
Maybe you are playing for some sense of accomplishment from grinding through levels but not everyone is. You simply cannot transfer your reason for playing onto everyone else and use that as a basis for your argument for whether a business model is 'bad' or 'game-breaking'. It may not be a business model that you like, but that is solely subjective and not proof that something actually is bad for the game or game-breaking.
"In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them."
It seems like your issue is that someone has something that you don't. You haven't presented any other problem with the XP potions or items malls other than that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2.
Argue about measurable metrics. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Simply put, it devalues your levels. Especially for those who spent three times as many hours doing it.
The medal of honor wouldn't be quite as shiny if everyone were handed one would it?
Finish the argument. What does devaluing of levels result in that is quantifiable? Developers themselves constantly reduce the "value" of levels by reducing the exp curves as the number of levels increase. Everything in a theme park style game is constantly being devaluled by some metric.
What quantifiably harmful effects to the game are there from cash shop exp potions on the game? "I don't feel good about people doing things easier than I did 3 years ago" is not measurable in terms of impact on the game and there doesn't appear to be any serious negative long term effect to "devaluing" old content, as it is standard business practice.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Mmos need money. Item malls make money. So in the simplest terms, yes.
Yet, there will be many hystrioinic nerds to dispute this based on no evidence what so ever. I suppose item malls undermine their false sense of accomplishment in game somehow. In reality, there is no accomplishment at all other than to be entertained. If you can achieve this without constantly comparing yourself to what others are doing you win
Since your argument very eerily echoes Ihmotepp's (almost to the word in some cases) I went back to try to find those threads to link them for you. It was a painful experience so after a while I simply gave up, but will try to look again later because I think a lot of very valid and useful points were raised on both sides.
"Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks."
The XP Potions have been available in-game for almost five years as a Scavenger Hunt reward. They are also given out as veteran rewards. You get 3 potions at 1 week, 3 at six months and 3 at 12 months. You also get tradeskill xp boost potions along the way as well.
Is your issue with XP potions? If so, that's not a flaw of item malls but of a standard game item and a whole other topic entirely.
Now, here's the big question: In a PvE game, what difference does it make what level the other guy is?
"I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out."
Maybe you are playing for some sense of accomplishment from grinding through levels but not everyone is. You simply cannot transfer your reason for playing onto everyone else and use that as a basis for your argument for whether a business model is 'bad' or 'game-breaking'. It may not be a business model that you like, but that is solely subjective and not proof that something actually is bad for the game or game-breaking.
"In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them."
It seems like your issue is that someone has something that you don't. You haven't presented any other problem with the XP potions or items malls other than that.
Anything you can buy with RMT becomes a flaw imo. But when it comes to a distinct advantage, XP pots are obviously one of those advantages.
When you're playing an MMO, you're interacting with many people, and in some forms are competing with them if not only in pvp. Advantages are advantages no matter how you want to twist the idea they're not damaging the game, because they truly are. They turn what you put in 3 months for, into 2 weeks for someone else. That's devaluing your character and any time you put forth. I don't see how you can't understand what I'm saying here.
It'd be like working for a month and then watching the guy across the way work for 1 week doing less and getting paid the same thing you just got paid. Seem a bit unfair? That's because it is.
Although your point about me playing for different reasons I understand. Maybe some players only want to pvp and skip the grind. I suppose I just want to be on equal footing, that's why I can't ever get into playing an item mall game.
Since your argument very eerily echoes Ihmotepp's (almost to the word in some cases) I went back to try to find those threads to link them for you. It was a painful experience so after a while I simply gave up, but will try to look again later because I think a lot of very valid and useful points were raised on both sides.
"Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks."
The XP Potions have been available in-game for almost five years as a Scavenger Hunt reward. They are also given out as veteran rewards. You get 3 potions at 1 week, 3 at six months and 3 at 12 months. You also get tradeskill xp boost potions along the way as well.
Is your issue with XP potions? If so, that's not a flaw of item malls but of a standard game item and a whole other topic entirely.
Now, here's the big question: In a PvE game, what difference does it make what level the other guy is?
"I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out."
Maybe you are playing for some sense of accomplishment from grinding through levels but not everyone is. You simply cannot transfer your reason for playing onto everyone else and use that as a basis for your argument for whether a business model is 'bad' or 'game-breaking'. It may not be a business model that you like, but that is solely subjective and not proof that something actually is bad for the game or game-breaking.
"In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them."
It seems like your issue is that someone has something that you don't. You haven't presented any other problem with the XP potions or items malls other than that.
Anything you can buy with RMT becomes a flaw imo. But when it comes to a distinct advantage, XP pots are obviously one of those advantages.
When you're playing an MMO, you're interacting with many people, and in some forms are competing with them if not only in pvp. Advantages are advantages no matter how you want to twist the idea they're not damaging the game, because they truly are. They turn what you put in 3 months for, into 2 weeks for someone else. That's devaluing your character and any time you put forth. I don't see how you can't understand what I'm saying here.
It'd be like working for a month and then watching the guy across the way work for 1 week doing less and getting paid the same thing you just got paid. Seem a bit unfair? That's because it is.
Although your point about me playing for different reasons I understand. Maybe some players only want to pvp and skip the grind. I suppose I just want to be on equal footing, that's why I can't ever get into playing an item mall game.
Again, quantify how it is harming game. Lowing subscriber numbers? Lowering revenues? Less content generation? Lowering of player retention? You keep stating your opinion on item malls as fact without defining the harm it does overall. People understand that you do not think an item mall is fair. We've been seeing these devaluation arguments for years as the nature of these games is to devalue old content.
Now, how is an item mall harmful to a MMO based upon the CCG business model. We'll even give the game support for real cash auction house and the ability to trade with other players.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Since your argument very eerily echoes Ihmotepp's (almost to the word in some cases) I went back to try to find those threads to link them for you. It was a painful experience so after a while I simply gave up, but will try to look again later because I think a lot of very valid and useful points were raised on both sides.
"Makes all the leveling somewhat worthless when someone can swoop in and pass you up for shelling out an extra 20 bucks."
The XP Potions have been available in-game for almost five years as a Scavenger Hunt reward. They are also given out as veteran rewards. You get 3 potions at 1 week, 3 at six months and 3 at 12 months. You also get tradeskill xp boost potions along the way as well.
Is your issue with XP potions? If so, that's not a flaw of item malls but of a standard game item and a whole other topic entirely.
Now, here's the big question: In a PvE game, what difference does it make what level the other guy is?
"I mean the whole point in some of these games IS to level up, but that turns into a waste when someone can simply buy it out."
Maybe you are playing for some sense of accomplishment from grinding through levels but not everyone is. You simply cannot transfer your reason for playing onto everyone else and use that as a basis for your argument for whether a business model is 'bad' or 'game-breaking'. It may not be a business model that you like, but that is solely subjective and not proof that something actually is bad for the game or game-breaking.
"In any case I feel like item malls put players who aren't buying into a position where they are simply handicapped in comparison. That's why I can't stand them."
It seems like your issue is that someone has something that you don't. You haven't presented any other problem with the XP potions or items malls other than that.
Anything you can buy with RMT becomes a flaw imo. But when it comes to a distinct advantage, XP pots are obviously one of those advantages.
When you're playing an MMO, you're interacting with many people, and in some forms are competing with them if not only in pvp. Advantages are advantages no matter how you want to twist the idea they're not damaging the game, because they truly are. They turn what you put in 3 months for, into 2 weeks for someone else. That's devaluing your character and any time you put forth. I don't see how you can't understand what I'm saying here.
Because you are still attributing that to item malls even after I explained to you in detail that these are regularly accessible in-game items.
It'd be like working for a month and then watching the guy across the way work for 1 week doing less and getting paid the same thing you just got paid. Seem a bit unfair? That's because it is.
So, you're against others having more time to play, as well?
Although your point about me playing for different reasons I understand. Maybe some players only want to pvp and skip the grind. I suppose I just want to be on equal footing, that's why I can't ever get into playing an item mall game.
You're still basing your argument on everyone being involved in some kind of race. You certainly are, but most of the people you are 'competing' with aren't racing you and more than likely don't even know you exist.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ok, it looks like you've abandoned the EQ2 XP Potion and went back to Item Malls are unfair, based on the false premise that all item malls offer items that affect this race to the end.
You say that it's not a race to you and then state "You're both traveling toward the same finish line but one person gets a nitro boost."
Ihmotepp, you got me. Fool me once, shame on me.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ok, it looks like you've abandoned the EQ2 XP Potion and went back to Item Malls are unfair, based on the false premise that all item malls offer items that affect this race to the end.
You say that you don't feel it's a race and then state " You're both traveling toward the same finish line but one person gets a nitro boost."
Holy crap... it's an Ihmo alt.
When I said I don't consider it a race, I meant it's not about who gets there first. It's about what it takes to get there. Item malls make it much easier to get there. That was my point. The EQ xp item was just one example of how RMT offers a distinct advantage. I wasn't hanging on that as my main point. The main point is Item malls offer players advantages over others, as long as you're willing to pay. Not my cup of tea.
F2P games attract different types of player than P2P I think.
Mostly, the "hey, its free" type. They will play it and won't even care that they are at a disadvantage (compared to someone using the cash shop) because hey, its free. I tend to see that a lot. "its just a game, who cares if I level slower, I still enjoy it", or the popular "its just a small boost to damage, its not even that strong, it doesn't have a huge impact on pvp".
I wont touch any game that has a cash shop with a ten foot pole, but I can understand how someone that doesn't have a lot of money to spend might want to play one. I can also easily understand how someone with wayyy too much money to spend might want to play one xD.
To simplify, I think F2P attract the "extremes" of the spectrum, those that don't really want to pay, and those that want to invest a lot. On the other hand, P2P attract the middle of the spectrum.
Now, explain how power leveling characters is bad in an aged and top heavy game or how ever you want to define EQ2.
Argue about measurable metrics. Long term profitability? Subscriber numbers? Player retention?
Simply put, it devalues your levels. Especially for those who spent three times as many hours doing it.
The medal of honor wouldn't be quite as shiny if everyone were handed one would it?
Finish the argument. What does devaluing of levels result in that is quantifiable? Developers themselves constantly reduce the "value" of levels by reducing the exp curves as the number of levels increase. Everything in a theme park style game is constantly being devaluled by some metric.
What quantifiably harmful effects to the game are there from cash shop exp potions on the game? "I don't feel good about people doing things easier than I did 3 years ago" is not measurable in terms of impact on the game and there doesn't appear to be any serious negative long term effect to "devaluing" old content, as it is standard business practice.
Yeah I agree. I personally wouldn't mind if they let people purchase a max level character legit. You can pretty much do this in EVE Online. Doesn't harm the game at all when it's developer sanctioned.
Take Dark Orbit. The item mall itself is irrelevant since the advantages are trivial. However, the subscription bonus of removing all risk from the game essentially makes the game not worth playing both for subscribers and non-subscribers alike.
When I think of a disadvantage especially in an MMO that has say a cash shop whether its P2P or F2P I think of a combat / gear advantage in PVP. I hardly consider an XP Potion so someone can level a bit faster or level to keep up with his friends who play more or so they can get their Alt to where their main is an advantage. Its not like games are a rat race unless your one of those that likes to rat race to show off epeen I hardly see the reason to be concerned. It should be about your Journey not Player X's journey.
I mean now if they're selling say Potions of God where they gain all sorts of actual real advantages over players then I can see the boo hoo but..seriously? XP Potions? Terrible example of bad item shops.
The worst item shops are ones where the game is so heavily relant on it that you can not enjoy the game without atleast buying a few items a month off of. Korean F2P games tend to lean heavily to this particular method but so far most of the US versions of games with Cash Shops are pretty simplistic.
Cash Shops in P2P's seem to really just be a bit of extra revenue that can be used to fund the game (except I do believe WoW's Pet Cash shop is completely a rip off and for the Greed their prices are just Greed to the max). Even if you don't see it as funding the game it is. It keeps investors and bosses happy and their happiness translates down into people's paychecks and down into approvals for Expansions and free Content. They're not going to fund more content creation for a game that can't make money and shows little signs of growth.
Having a leveling advantage over another person is just a ridiculous example of Cash Shop issues. There's so many other ways people can gain an advantage atleast with a cash shop XP potion it levels the playing field a bit for late comers, those that aren't around for when xp exploits happen, or for those that don't have the time to dedicate as much as others. Its about the journey you take to get to end game...havign a potion to help doesn't really change how you got there.
Of course using Everquest 2's potions as an example is just even laughable since they give those things out like candy especially if you ra long time subscriber. I think one of my original EQ2 characters (who ive not played in a while) has atleast 20 XP boost items that I got for free. Now if Sony starts selling raid gear or mass amount sof items that normally you'd have to buy from crafters...thats where the Cash Shop has gone to far in a P2P.
Selling armor, weapons, and major stat boosting potions(with no way to get them in game except through extreme measures) is wehre I draw the line at F2P cash shops.
I'd say this argument or debate is fail because of the Poor Examples and extreme Bias of the OP but it is oddly an interesting debate to read since plenty of others recongize the fail even if they too most likely do not care for Item Malls.
Mike