Question is not could 2004 Bioware make good SWTOR. With great games behind them likes of Baldurs Gate and NWN. 2004 Bioware was at their top.
Yet than came the EA buyout. And Bioware produced their first EA+B child : Dragon Age
I would not argue if Dragon Age had good or bad story , since this is highly subjective. But anyone more experienced in RPGs would straight away notice that DA is horribly unbalanced RPG. With some classes horribly useless, other superbly overpowered. Number of skills that were complete waste of space, and other that made no sense at all (other lower skill in same tree being actually stronger). And finally up to complete game unbalance, with random encounter of archer bandits being more challenging than end game archdemon.
Than comes another EA+B child : Mass Effect 2 Again. Story great ( not judging it now ) - but horribly unbalanced RPG (and this time stripped and simplified to the bone. Barely resembling RPG) Biotic classes being completely nerfed by the game mechanic. Made almost useless as main characters. Almost every good thing from MA1 removed and replaced.
So I ask myself. What would happen in MMO , if Bioware can not even balance singleplayer RPG ? Or design engaging RPG ruleset ?
I mean sure they can write wicked good story. But will the STORY be the reason you are playing SWTOR ? Is the story reason you are playing MMO ? Than why play online game at all ?
Your critique of Dragon's Age and Mass Effect 2 are out of touch with reality. It seems that YOU wanted Bioware to make SWTOR a certain way, but the development team has decided to go in another direction.
I've played Kotor 1 and 2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon's Age, and currently 8 hours into Mass Effect 2. I LOVE THEIR games. One thing it tells me is that they know what the heck they're doing.
What is it that they do well? The gameplay is fun, the characters matter, the dialogue is brilliant, and the story is immersive. What else would you ever want from an mmo?
Bioware is being true to what they do best in games. You're disappointed that they didn't go in a direction they're not familiar with? I'd be disappointed if SWTOR didnt' follow in the footsteps of games I love.
If Star Wars The Old Republic is Kotor 3 - 10. Signed, sealed, delivered.
The gameplay is fun, the characters matter, the dialogue is brilliant, and the story is immersive. What else would you ever want from an mmo?
Its an interesting set of things to like in an MMOG. Aren't the 'characters' supposed to be your friends and guildmates? Isn't the 'dialog' supposed to be what happens in chat and vent? Isn't the story supposed to be YOUR story instead of one that was carefully scripted for your class? Aren't those the things that a MMOG is really about?
The gameplay is fun, the characters matter, the dialogue is brilliant, and the story is immersive. What else would you ever want from an mmo?
Its an interesting set of things to like in an MMOG. Aren't the 'characters' supposed to be your friends and guildmates? Isn't the 'dialog' supposed to be what happens in chat and vent? Isn't the story supposed to be YOUR story instead of one that was carefully scripted for your class? Aren't those the things that a MMOG is really about?
I don't follow a script. I still make my own choices with my story. I'd rather have a well-written story to immerse myself in. Obviously, there's still friends and guildmates, chat, and MY story outside of the main quests. What makes you question that this won't be an MMO just because Bioware is bringing something new to the table?
Honestly, I enjoyed the Hell out of Dragon Age. Many, many people considered it one of the most fun - if not THE most fun - single player RPG they have ever played; my wife and myself included. *shrug*
I have great faith in Bioware still. I think that company has incredible talent. Yes the classes were "unbalanced" in Dragon Age but... so what? It's a single player RPG. There are also different difficulty levels to choose from. If you think a class is too powerful, either don't play it or try the game with it on Nightmare setting.
What makes you question that this won't be an MMO just because Bioware is bringing something new to the table?
What are they bringing new to the table? I am a big proponent of innovation and that is my primary reason for not liking most Bioware products.
An emphasis on story in an MMO. It's never been done to this extent before, and, despite all the negativity, no one truly knows if it'll be a great change, an average one, or a bad one. We'll see. Bioware is smart; they know that "innovative, revolutionary" games flop just as often as they succeed. Yet they don't let the genre stagnate, either. They offer their own little twist to a tried-and-true formula, which is the only realistic way this genre will evolve. Perhaps, soon, we'll see some new sandboxes, and then in the future, some more sandbox-themepark hybrids (which will eventually spawn the "perfect" MMO... well, close enough).
If BioWare is doing what I think they are then I have no hope for the game. As much as I love the idea of persistent story in an MMORPG, it just doesn't work in most cases. How are they going to do that without instancing and phasing, separation of players from other players worlds based off of the story? Are they planning on having the story arcs that important to the game that some players cannot play with others based off of choices? I'm not arguing saying that they are, but if they do it's no longer a massively multi-player game.
I have no idea, they havn't made one MMORPG ever yet, they are working on ST:Tor, but since I have no experiance what so ever from actually playing it, I can not say or imagine if they can make a really good MMO.
I also can never compare singleplayers games with MMORPG's, so again have no idea if Bioware really can make a good MMO, only time will tell.
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
I like a good story. That is why I am an avid book reader. I think my main problem with Bioware has always been the WAY they do their narrative. Their games kind of push you through the story. Their games feel like they start with a story then add a game on as an afterthought. Every time you turn around the immersive game experience is broken by another cutscene (or a load screen) of some sort that steals control of your character. Its a manner of story telling that seems more appropriate for adventure games or cinema. Some of that kind of stuff is fine, but if its 75% of the game then it doesn't even feel like a game anymore.
I put a lot more value on intelligent game mechanics, environment interaction, deep character development, strategic challenges. I like the kinds of things that make me think about problem solving. Story is fine as long as its a story that is discovered instead of forced. Things like the comm-logs in System Shock or the books in the older Elder Scrolls games. Cinematic cut-scenes do nothing for me and even annoy me. I'd rather watch a movie if I want a cinematic experience or read a book if I want a good story, both of which I do regularly. There is certainly no shortage of great stories to be experienced and Bioware's aren't particularly outstanding in the big picture.
What makes you question that this won't be an MMO just because Bioware is bringing something new to the table?
What are they bringing new to the table? I am a big proponent of innovation and that is my primary reason for not liking most Bioware products.
We will not see any major new innovations in gaming for quite a bit to come. The whole thing started with a stick and a button, and now its moved all the way up to enhanced motion capture and voice and image recognition. The genre has been stale for some time now. Story is nothing new in games. However, in MMORPGs.. where story should play a large roll in building and progressing your character, has been severely lacking.
BioWare isn't revolutionizing anything by adding their patented story elements to the genre. They aren't creating any major innovation. They are just applying something that has been a great success elsewhere into something that they feel (and I feel) sorely needs it. Really, it is all we'll be seeing in this genre for some time now.. whether we're playing massively online with a controller, a keyboard, or waggling some sticks and waving our arms... whether we're FPSing or RPGing.. none of it will be truly innovative. That doesn't mean it won't be good.
On the contrary I think its even more of a reason why it will be good. MMOs boil down to the level game... noone cares anymore about the journey, just the destination. Adding story elements, choices, and collaborative grouping during those story elements adds a proponent of entertainment to the JOURNEY that actually means something.
If BioWare is doing what I think they are then I have no hope for the game. As much as I love the idea of persistent story in an MMORPG, it just doesn't work in most cases. How are they going to do that without instancing and phasing, separation of players from other players worlds based off of the story? Are they planning on having the story arcs that important to the game that some players cannot play with others based off of choices? I'm not arguing saying that they are, but if they do it's no longer a massively multi-player game.
If the entire game was just the player story arc. Then yes that would be true. It would be thousands of SPG games played on a server.
That is not what I take from the info out there. It looks more like a story within an MMO. You have a story arc that changes with your choices. You may not be able to play with someone else that made a different choice within your story arc. But, there will be all of the usual MMO quest hubs and open areas for multiple players you would see anywhere else.
So you have the main story that helps to define your character. While you run the story, you end up on planets with local quests and dungeons that have nothing to do with your story. Then you can go back and continue your story when you want. It will be there along with all other forms of MMO play. IMHO ofc.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
You know the reason behind why quests are a grind now ? No its not because they have a story , make sense , affect your environment or future choices, require your attention and their complexity goes beyond kill X rats. Speak for yourself , Ill definitely look forward to those 20 minutes of dialogs and storyline not the kill 10 rats part in a field of monsters. If all you are expecting from an mmorpg is to quickly hit "1" on quest selection screen and run off to kill those 10 rats then we have nothing to argue about, definitely different tastes.
We will not see any major new innovations in gaming for quite a bit to come.
That sounds like fairly defeatist. Its like you've already decided that there won't be any innovation so you don't even want it anymore.
I think we will see and are seeing a fair amount of innovation, just not in the mainstream gaming. Bioware IS mainstream gaming now and right in the middle of the rut that gaming is in.
There are a ton of indie companies trying new stuff all the time. I'll gladly give up that high end graphics engine and deal with a few bugs to see some innovative gameplay. It doesn't even need to be innovative so much as deep. Add a seamless overworld onto a game like DDO and I'd be in heaven. There are no particular games that I know of in development that have exactly what I am looking for, but its just a matter of time. I can tell already that SWTOR would be nothing more than a filler for me until a deeper game comes along.
I hate it too because I know it will be a great success, then we'll have five more years of mainstream clones that don't do anything new (except adding dozens of hours of crapy dialog) and try their best to copy SWTOR's mechanics with loads of instancing breaking up the playerbase into little bits and cliques.
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
Not every game can be shallow. This one won't be. The problem with any type of storyline on MMOs currently is that they're just so boring. Noone reads them.... and if you try to read them, they punish you with blocky walls of text explaining mostly nothing about how this mission truly effects you. Not to mention at the end of it all they don't even give you a choice in the matter.. which cuts out progression entirely if you decide not to do them.
In the end its a matter of opinion, you said you didn't like BioWare games, but its not for lack of innovation, its for lack of enjoying the way they tell stories and use progression. For you that may be a reason not to play, but for me, its every reason to play
The gameplay is fun, the characters matter, the dialogue is brilliant, and the story is immersive. What else would you ever want from an mmo?
Its an interesting set of things to like in an MMOG. Aren't the 'characters' supposed to be your friends and guildmates? Isn't the 'dialog' supposed to be what happens in chat and vent? Isn't the story supposed to be YOUR story instead of one that was carefully scripted for your class? Aren't those the things that a MMOG is really about?
You're confusing a lot of terms. There's the dialogue you have in the game as it applies to quest lines, npc's, and cut scenes, and there's the dialogue you have when talking to your friends. You chatting with friends on vent has nothing to do with the "quality of the dialogue" programmed into the game. For me, this matters because it adds to the immersion. If something is written and spoken well, It improves the overall quality of the game. I'm currently playing Mass Effect 2 and the dialogue/writing is superb.
In terms of story, again, I feel you're playing with the words I used rather than addressing exactly what I was referring to. There's a difference between the STORY in the game versus your EXPERIENCES with friends while playing the game. Most MMO's just have you do things without a fully fleshed out reason, history, and relevance. If the story in Star Wars is deep and rich, then everything else you do in the game will be more meaningful and enjoyable.
And also, in terms of what an MMO is about, that's purely subjective. This reminds me of a quote from the Big Lebowski. The Dude walks into the room where Mr. Lebowski is lamenting of the potential loss of his tramp wife. Mr. Lebowski says... "What makes a man? Is it doing the right thing no matter what the costs." ( or to that effect). The Dude replies, "... that and a pair of testicles."
An MMO is nothing more than a "computer role-playing games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual game world." (Definition from Wikipedia).
So the objective definition of MMORPG is clearly met in SWTOR. If the company chooses to incorporate deep story, meaningful choices, rich dialogue.. which all contribute to an immersive experience... then there's nothing more than I could hope for.
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
I take it story, lore and reading bores you=)
LOL the irony is killing me! The #1 thing SWTOR is doing is providing a way to NOT read and instead you get to spend hours listening to someone else read for you. I would prefer to just read it myself, at my own pace, like I do every day when I read books.
Any time they add speech to a game the first thing people ask for is a way to skip it. That isn't necessarily because they don't want to have a story, its because having someone read to you is slow and boring when you can read it yourself in 1/10 the time. Bioware games have always felt designed to force the player to actually sit and listen to ALL of it. The 'skip dialog' option in DA felt tacked on and discouraged compared to other games that have speech. Its pretty clear that Bioware is expecting you to spend a LOT of time listening to someone read to you. That is boring to me. I read books and read them pretty quickly after all these years of reading books. Most of them have better stories than Bioware has produced.
We will not see any major new innovations in gaming for quite a bit to come.
That sounds like fairly defeatist. Its like you've already decided that there won't be any innovation so you don't even want it anymore.
I think we will see and are seeing a fair amount of innovation, just not in the mainstream gaming. Bioware IS mainstream gaming now and right in the middle of the rut that gaming is in.
There are a ton of indie companies trying new stuff all the time. I'll gladly give up that high end graphics engine and deal with a few bugs to see some innovative gameplay. It doesn't even need to be innovative so much as deep. Add a seamless overworld onto a game like DDO and I'd be in heaven. There are no particular games that I know of in development that have exactly what I am looking for, but its just a matter of time. I can tell already that SWTOR would be nothing more than a filler for me until a deeper game comes along.
I hate it too because I know it will be a great success, then we'll have five more years of mainstream clones that don't do anything new (except adding dozens of hours of crapy dialog) and try their best to copy SWTOR's mechanics with loads of instancing breaking up the playerbase into little bits and cliques.
I don't think you understand, there is no innovation... anything that will be done has already been thought of before. A seamless overworld in a game like DDO... thats not innovative.. putting them together in one isn't innovative either. No indie company is creating anything that is genre changing. The only thing innovative now is just hybridizing the genre. What bioware is doing has never been seen to this extent in this genre... but it doesn't make it innovative.. it just makes it a good idea. DDO combat in an open world.. thats not innovative, thats just putting two things together that already exist into something that suits your tastes.
Make an MMO where rockbands run around and play music to eachother in online combat in an openworld with jetpacks and a motion capture system... none of it is innovative. Its just applying different systems to different situations.
That doesn't mean I don't want to see innovation, but nothing you've said makes me feel like what you want is innovative either...
I mean sure they can write wicked good story. But will the STORY be the reason you are playing SWTOR ? Is the story reason you are playing MMO ? Than why play online game at all ?
I played MMORPGs for the coop hack-n-slash (i.e. dungeon crawls & fights). However, I am willing to give TOR a chance to see if they can make a coop story good.
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
I take it story, lore and reading bores you=)
LOL the irony is killing me! The #1 thing SWTOR is doing is providing a way to NOT read and instead you get to spend hours listening to someone else read for you. I would prefer to just read it myself, at my own pace, like I do every day when I read books.
Any time they add speech to a game the first thing people ask for is a way to skip it. That isn't necessarily because they don't want to have a story, its because having someone read to you is slow and boring when you can read it yourself in 1/10 the time. Bioware games have always felt designed to force the player to actually sit and listen to ALL of it. The 'skip dialog' option in DA felt tacked on and discouraged compared to other games that have speech. Its pretty clear that Bioware is expecting you to spend a LOT of time listening to someone read to you. That is boring to me. I read books and read them pretty quickly after all these years of reading books. Most of them have better stories than Bioware has produced.
You can read it at your own pace.. you can click through all bioware dialog in all of their games that I've played if you prefer to not listen to them talk. I've played through KoToR 1 a few times now, (and currently playing through it again) and I click through a lot of whats going on because I can read faster then they can talk, and I know the story pretty well by now.
The thing is, is they make the dialog in a story fashion because some people are actually interested in it.... YOU may not be, but that doesn't mean everyone isn't. When I first played through KoToR I listened to all of the dialog. I did so because it conveyed how the players felt and thought, and the alien languages added immersion to the gameplay. Being able to skip it is good.. and kind of invalidates your point that the game couldn't be beneficial to those that don't want to sit and listen to the story.
Its not all about what they're saying, its about your reaction and the choices you make. If thats not the kind of game that interests you then this obviously wouldn't be your kind of game.. whether you could skip the voiceovers or not.
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
I take it story, lore and reading bores you=)
LOL the irony is killing me! The #1 thing SWTOR is doing is providing a way to NOT read and instead you get to spend hours listening to someone else read for you. I would prefer to just read it myself, at my own pace, like I do every day when I read books.
Any time they add speech to a game the first thing people ask for is a way to skip it. That isn't necessarily because they don't want to have a story, its because having someone read to you is slow and boring when you can read it yourself in 1/10 the time. Bioware games have always felt designed to force the player to actually sit and listen to ALL of it. The 'skip dialog' option in DA felt tacked on and discouraged compared to other games that have speech. Its pretty clear that Bioware is expecting you to spend a LOT of time listening to someone read to you. That is boring to me. I read books and read them pretty quickly after all these years of reading books. Most of them have better stories than Bioware has produced.
You can read it at your own pace.. you can click through all bioware dialog in all of their games that I've played if you prefer to not listen to them talk. I've played through KoToR 1 a few times now, (and currently playing through it again) and I click through a lot of whats going on because I can read faster then they can talk, and I know the story pretty well by now.
The thing is, is they make the dialog in a story fashion because some people are actually interested in it.... YOU may not be, but that doesn't mean everyone isn't. When I first played through KoToR I listened to all of the dialog. I did so because it conveyed how the players felt and thought, and the alien languages added immersion to the gameplay. Being able to skip it is good.. and kind of invalidates your point that the game couldn't be beneficial to those that don't want to sit and listen to the story.
Its not all about what they're saying, its about your reaction and the choices you make. If thats not the kind of game that interests you then this obviously wouldn't be your kind of game.. whether you could skip the voiceovers or not.
Lore in MMO's doesn't interest me. Why? Because it's meaningless.
Go kill 10 rats because....
Why do I care what comes after because? It changes nothing in the game.
However, in SWOTOR they have multiplayer dialog. How you answer determines what your mission will be based on a majority vote.
Comments
Your critique of Dragon's Age and Mass Effect 2 are out of touch with reality. It seems that YOU wanted Bioware to make SWTOR a certain way, but the development team has decided to go in another direction.
I've played Kotor 1 and 2, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon's Age, and currently 8 hours into Mass Effect 2. I LOVE THEIR games. One thing it tells me is that they know what the heck they're doing.
What is it that they do well? The gameplay is fun, the characters matter, the dialogue is brilliant, and the story is immersive. What else would you ever want from an mmo?
Bioware is being true to what they do best in games. You're disappointed that they didn't go in a direction they're not familiar with? I'd be disappointed if SWTOR didnt' follow in the footsteps of games I love.
If Star Wars The Old Republic is Kotor 3 - 10. Signed, sealed, delivered.
Its an interesting set of things to like in an MMOG. Aren't the 'characters' supposed to be your friends and guildmates? Isn't the 'dialog' supposed to be what happens in chat and vent? Isn't the story supposed to be YOUR story instead of one that was carefully scripted for your class? Aren't those the things that a MMOG is really about?
Its an interesting set of things to like in an MMOG. Aren't the 'characters' supposed to be your friends and guildmates? Isn't the 'dialog' supposed to be what happens in chat and vent? Isn't the story supposed to be YOUR story instead of one that was carefully scripted for your class? Aren't those the things that a MMOG is really about?
I don't follow a script. I still make my own choices with my story. I'd rather have a well-written story to immerse myself in. Obviously, there's still friends and guildmates, chat, and MY story outside of the main quests. What makes you question that this won't be an MMO just because Bioware is bringing something new to the table?
Honestly, I enjoyed the Hell out of Dragon Age. Many, many people considered it one of the most fun - if not THE most fun - single player RPG they have ever played; my wife and myself included. *shrug*
I have great faith in Bioware still. I think that company has incredible talent. Yes the classes were "unbalanced" in Dragon Age but... so what? It's a single player RPG. There are also different difficulty levels to choose from. If you think a class is too powerful, either don't play it or try the game with it on Nightmare setting.
What are they bringing new to the table? I am a big proponent of innovation and that is my primary reason for not liking most Bioware products.
What are they bringing new to the table? I am a big proponent of innovation and that is my primary reason for not liking most Bioware products.
An emphasis on story in an MMO. It's never been done to this extent before, and, despite all the negativity, no one truly knows if it'll be a great change, an average one, or a bad one. We'll see. Bioware is smart; they know that "innovative, revolutionary" games flop just as often as they succeed. Yet they don't let the genre stagnate, either. They offer their own little twist to a tried-and-true formula, which is the only realistic way this genre will evolve. Perhaps, soon, we'll see some new sandboxes, and then in the future, some more sandbox-themepark hybrids (which will eventually spawn the "perfect" MMO... well, close enough).
If BioWare is doing what I think they are then I have no hope for the game. As much as I love the idea of persistent story in an MMORPG, it just doesn't work in most cases. How are they going to do that without instancing and phasing, separation of players from other players worlds based off of the story? Are they planning on having the story arcs that important to the game that some players cannot play with others based off of choices? I'm not arguing saying that they are, but if they do it's no longer a massively multi-player game.
/thread
See the violence inherent in the system!
Can 2010 Bioware really make a good MMO ?
I have no idea, they havn't made one MMORPG ever yet, they are working on ST:Tor, but since I have no experiance what so ever from actually playing it, I can not say or imagine if they can make a really good MMO.
I also can never compare singleplayers games with MMORPG's, so again have no idea if Bioware really can make a good MMO, only time will tell.
So the fans of mmorpgs are worried it wont be another "fields of monsters" game with pointless storyline and boring quest grind ? Well theres planty of these around, let the rest of us finally have a game that's not a map filled with monsters and a kill x and y missions like all the primitive "true" mmorpgs.
I like a good story. That is why I am an avid book reader. I think my main problem with Bioware has always been the WAY they do their narrative. Their games kind of push you through the story. Their games feel like they start with a story then add a game on as an afterthought. Every time you turn around the immersive game experience is broken by another cutscene (or a load screen) of some sort that steals control of your character. Its a manner of story telling that seems more appropriate for adventure games or cinema. Some of that kind of stuff is fine, but if its 75% of the game then it doesn't even feel like a game anymore.
I put a lot more value on intelligent game mechanics, environment interaction, deep character development, strategic challenges. I like the kinds of things that make me think about problem solving. Story is fine as long as its a story that is discovered instead of forced. Things like the comm-logs in System Shock or the books in the older Elder Scrolls games. Cinematic cut-scenes do nothing for me and even annoy me. I'd rather watch a movie if I want a cinematic experience or read a book if I want a good story, both of which I do regularly. There is certainly no shortage of great stories to be experienced and Bioware's aren't particularly outstanding in the big picture.
What are they bringing new to the table? I am a big proponent of innovation and that is my primary reason for not liking most Bioware products.
We will not see any major new innovations in gaming for quite a bit to come. The whole thing started with a stick and a button, and now its moved all the way up to enhanced motion capture and voice and image recognition. The genre has been stale for some time now. Story is nothing new in games. However, in MMORPGs.. where story should play a large roll in building and progressing your character, has been severely lacking.
BioWare isn't revolutionizing anything by adding their patented story elements to the genre. They aren't creating any major innovation. They are just applying something that has been a great success elsewhere into something that they feel (and I feel) sorely needs it. Really, it is all we'll be seeing in this genre for some time now.. whether we're playing massively online with a controller, a keyboard, or waggling some sticks and waving our arms... whether we're FPSing or RPGing.. none of it will be truly innovative. That doesn't mean it won't be good.
On the contrary I think its even more of a reason why it will be good. MMOs boil down to the level game... noone cares anymore about the journey, just the destination. Adding story elements, choices, and collaborative grouping during those story elements adds a proponent of entertainment to the JOURNEY that actually means something.
That is not what I take from the info out there. It looks more like a story within an MMO. You have a story arc that changes with your choices. You may not be able to play with someone else that made a different choice within your story arc. But, there will be all of the usual MMO quest hubs and open areas for multiple players you would see anywhere else.
So you have the main story that helps to define your character. While you run the story, you end up on planets with local quests and dungeons that have nothing to do with your story. Then you can go back and continue your story when you want. It will be there along with all other forms of MMO play. IMHO ofc.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
I take it story, lore and reading bores you=)
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
You know the reason behind why quests are a grind now ? No its not because they have a story , make sense , affect your environment or future choices, require your attention and their complexity goes beyond kill X rats. Speak for yourself , Ill definitely look forward to those 20 minutes of dialogs and storyline not the kill 10 rats part in a field of monsters. If all you are expecting from an mmorpg is to quickly hit "1" on quest selection screen and run off to kill those 10 rats then we have nothing to argue about, definitely different tastes.
That sounds like fairly defeatist. Its like you've already decided that there won't be any innovation so you don't even want it anymore.
I think we will see and are seeing a fair amount of innovation, just not in the mainstream gaming. Bioware IS mainstream gaming now and right in the middle of the rut that gaming is in.
There are a ton of indie companies trying new stuff all the time. I'll gladly give up that high end graphics engine and deal with a few bugs to see some innovative gameplay. It doesn't even need to be innovative so much as deep. Add a seamless overworld onto a game like DDO and I'd be in heaven. There are no particular games that I know of in development that have exactly what I am looking for, but its just a matter of time. I can tell already that SWTOR would be nothing more than a filler for me until a deeper game comes along.
I hate it too because I know it will be a great success, then we'll have five more years of mainstream clones that don't do anything new (except adding dozens of hours of crapy dialog) and try their best to copy SWTOR's mechanics with loads of instancing breaking up the playerbase into little bits and cliques.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
Not every game can be shallow. This one won't be. The problem with any type of storyline on MMOs currently is that they're just so boring. Noone reads them.... and if you try to read them, they punish you with blocky walls of text explaining mostly nothing about how this mission truly effects you. Not to mention at the end of it all they don't even give you a choice in the matter.. which cuts out progression entirely if you decide not to do them.
In the end its a matter of opinion, you said you didn't like BioWare games, but its not for lack of innovation, its for lack of enjoying the way they tell stories and use progression. For you that may be a reason not to play, but for me, its every reason to play
Its an interesting set of things to like in an MMOG. Aren't the 'characters' supposed to be your friends and guildmates? Isn't the 'dialog' supposed to be what happens in chat and vent? Isn't the story supposed to be YOUR story instead of one that was carefully scripted for your class? Aren't those the things that a MMOG is really about?
You're confusing a lot of terms. There's the dialogue you have in the game as it applies to quest lines, npc's, and cut scenes, and there's the dialogue you have when talking to your friends. You chatting with friends on vent has nothing to do with the "quality of the dialogue" programmed into the game. For me, this matters because it adds to the immersion. If something is written and spoken well, It improves the overall quality of the game. I'm currently playing Mass Effect 2 and the dialogue/writing is superb.
In terms of story, again, I feel you're playing with the words I used rather than addressing exactly what I was referring to. There's a difference between the STORY in the game versus your EXPERIENCES with friends while playing the game. Most MMO's just have you do things without a fully fleshed out reason, history, and relevance. If the story in Star Wars is deep and rich, then everything else you do in the game will be more meaningful and enjoyable.
And also, in terms of what an MMO is about, that's purely subjective. This reminds me of a quote from the Big Lebowski. The Dude walks into the room where Mr. Lebowski is lamenting of the potential loss of his tramp wife. Mr. Lebowski says... "What makes a man? Is it doing the right thing no matter what the costs." ( or to that effect). The Dude replies, "... that and a pair of testicles."
An MMO is nothing more than a "computer role-playing games in which a very large number of players interact with one another within a virtual game world." (Definition from Wikipedia).
So the objective definition of MMORPG is clearly met in SWTOR. If the company chooses to incorporate deep story, meaningful choices, rich dialogue.. which all contribute to an immersive experience... then there's nothing more than I could hope for.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
I take it story, lore and reading bores you=)
LOL the irony is killing me! The #1 thing SWTOR is doing is providing a way to NOT read and instead you get to spend hours listening to someone else read for you. I would prefer to just read it myself, at my own pace, like I do every day when I read books.
Any time they add speech to a game the first thing people ask for is a way to skip it. That isn't necessarily because they don't want to have a story, its because having someone read to you is slow and boring when you can read it yourself in 1/10 the time. Bioware games have always felt designed to force the player to actually sit and listen to ALL of it. The 'skip dialog' option in DA felt tacked on and discouraged compared to other games that have speech. Its pretty clear that Bioware is expecting you to spend a LOT of time listening to someone read to you. That is boring to me. I read books and read them pretty quickly after all these years of reading books. Most of them have better stories than Bioware has produced.
That sounds like fairly defeatist. Its like you've already decided that there won't be any innovation so you don't even want it anymore.
I think we will see and are seeing a fair amount of innovation, just not in the mainstream gaming. Bioware IS mainstream gaming now and right in the middle of the rut that gaming is in.
There are a ton of indie companies trying new stuff all the time. I'll gladly give up that high end graphics engine and deal with a few bugs to see some innovative gameplay. It doesn't even need to be innovative so much as deep. Add a seamless overworld onto a game like DDO and I'd be in heaven. There are no particular games that I know of in development that have exactly what I am looking for, but its just a matter of time. I can tell already that SWTOR would be nothing more than a filler for me until a deeper game comes along.
I hate it too because I know it will be a great success, then we'll have five more years of mainstream clones that don't do anything new (except adding dozens of hours of crapy dialog) and try their best to copy SWTOR's mechanics with loads of instancing breaking up the playerbase into little bits and cliques.
I don't think you understand, there is no innovation... anything that will be done has already been thought of before. A seamless overworld in a game like DDO... thats not innovative.. putting them together in one isn't innovative either. No indie company is creating anything that is genre changing. The only thing innovative now is just hybridizing the genre. What bioware is doing has never been seen to this extent in this genre... but it doesn't make it innovative.. it just makes it a good idea. DDO combat in an open world.. thats not innovative, thats just putting two things together that already exist into something that suits your tastes.
Make an MMO where rockbands run around and play music to eachother in online combat in an openworld with jetpacks and a motion capture system... none of it is innovative. Its just applying different systems to different situations.
That doesn't mean I don't want to see innovation, but nothing you've said makes me feel like what you want is innovative either...
I played MMORPGs for the coop hack-n-slash (i.e. dungeon crawls & fights). However, I am willing to give TOR a chance to see if they can make a coop story good.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
I take it story, lore and reading bores you=)
LOL the irony is killing me! The #1 thing SWTOR is doing is providing a way to NOT read and instead you get to spend hours listening to someone else read for you. I would prefer to just read it myself, at my own pace, like I do every day when I read books.
Any time they add speech to a game the first thing people ask for is a way to skip it. That isn't necessarily because they don't want to have a story, its because having someone read to you is slow and boring when you can read it yourself in 1/10 the time. Bioware games have always felt designed to force the player to actually sit and listen to ALL of it. The 'skip dialog' option in DA felt tacked on and discouraged compared to other games that have speech. Its pretty clear that Bioware is expecting you to spend a LOT of time listening to someone read to you. That is boring to me. I read books and read them pretty quickly after all these years of reading books. Most of them have better stories than Bioware has produced.
You can read it at your own pace.. you can click through all bioware dialog in all of their games that I've played if you prefer to not listen to them talk. I've played through KoToR 1 a few times now, (and currently playing through it again) and I click through a lot of whats going on because I can read faster then they can talk, and I know the story pretty well by now.
The thing is, is they make the dialog in a story fashion because some people are actually interested in it.... YOU may not be, but that doesn't mean everyone isn't. When I first played through KoToR I listened to all of the dialog. I did so because it conveyed how the players felt and thought, and the alien languages added immersion to the gameplay. Being able to skip it is good.. and kind of invalidates your point that the game couldn't be beneficial to those that don't want to sit and listen to the story.
Its not all about what they're saying, its about your reaction and the choices you make. If thats not the kind of game that interests you then this obviously wouldn't be your kind of game.. whether you could skip the voiceovers or not.
If you think quests are a grind now just wait until each quest comes with 20 minutes of dialog to sit through. You won't just be killing those 10 womp-rats, you'll also have to listen to Jabo-One explain to you about a womp-rat's mating rituals for 15 minutes before you can even start. You'll be dying to get to that 'field of monsters' after sitting through a few hours of pressing '1' every 30 seconds to continue the dialog.
I take it story, lore and reading bores you=)
LOL the irony is killing me! The #1 thing SWTOR is doing is providing a way to NOT read and instead you get to spend hours listening to someone else read for you. I would prefer to just read it myself, at my own pace, like I do every day when I read books.
Any time they add speech to a game the first thing people ask for is a way to skip it. That isn't necessarily because they don't want to have a story, its because having someone read to you is slow and boring when you can read it yourself in 1/10 the time. Bioware games have always felt designed to force the player to actually sit and listen to ALL of it. The 'skip dialog' option in DA felt tacked on and discouraged compared to other games that have speech. Its pretty clear that Bioware is expecting you to spend a LOT of time listening to someone read to you. That is boring to me. I read books and read them pretty quickly after all these years of reading books. Most of them have better stories than Bioware has produced.
You can read it at your own pace.. you can click through all bioware dialog in all of their games that I've played if you prefer to not listen to them talk. I've played through KoToR 1 a few times now, (and currently playing through it again) and I click through a lot of whats going on because I can read faster then they can talk, and I know the story pretty well by now.
The thing is, is they make the dialog in a story fashion because some people are actually interested in it.... YOU may not be, but that doesn't mean everyone isn't. When I first played through KoToR I listened to all of the dialog. I did so because it conveyed how the players felt and thought, and the alien languages added immersion to the gameplay. Being able to skip it is good.. and kind of invalidates your point that the game couldn't be beneficial to those that don't want to sit and listen to the story.
Its not all about what they're saying, its about your reaction and the choices you make. If thats not the kind of game that interests you then this obviously wouldn't be your kind of game.. whether you could skip the voiceovers or not.
Lore in MMO's doesn't interest me. Why? Because it's meaningless.
Go kill 10 rats because....
Why do I care what comes after because? It changes nothing in the game.
However, in SWOTOR they have multiplayer dialog. How you answer determines what your mission will be based on a majority vote.
That might actually be fun.