I personally enjoy crafting, so long as I don't have to memorise every 10 thousand items available. What really kills the experience about crafting for me is storage management. I'll be there crafting and this thing I have no idea what it is get's spit out, so i save it, and that keeps on for awhile and I run out of space, so eventually I have to sell some of this stuff and later in the game I realise I sold something I could have gotten rich on without even knowing about. Grrr.
I think crafting adds to a game, If I were to make an MMO it would have crafting in it. But it wouldn't be meaningless crafting or a roll of the dice crafting. By roll of the dice crafting, I mean that there is a chance of failure.... What I would do instead of a roll of the dice crafting is a lower quality item instead.
But to answer the question- Because i enjoy crafting so much, it's pretty important to the game.
If its primarily action / loot based, obviously crafting is not going to be an important aspect.
IMHO all these games that tried to do both at the same time have failed. Either a game is crafting based or loot based. You can't do both and not disrupt the balance for the crafter. (unless the loot is junk or components) The second you add the loot Uber sword, it disrupts and can negate a crafters place in the game world.
This has played out in so many MMO's it's sad.
Another weakness of crafting in MMO's is it is f*cking mind numbing, stupid repetitious and boring to do. Generally speaking it is a task best suited for people without a pulse.
Hey buddy, i resent this comment, i have a pulse . To me crafting is important, i am trying out SWG (still on trial account) for the crafting alone. I was also a prolific crafter in EVE.
The reason i like crafting is it takes thought to be successful. In EVE, I had to constantly think how to streamline my supply chain in order to maximize my profit, i eventually realized that shipping was more profitable than building and so i did that . I did however, craft a new ship the Orca when it came out and i raced to get the blueprint and get my supply chain ready to build it before anyone else came in order to price gouge my alliance I was still 200-300 million cheaper than in Jita . But yeah that was fun, the fact that instead of grinding xp or doing raids and raids, i had to use my brain to figure a way to get my xp (xp in EVE = was money). That's why i like crafting and i couldn't imagine things being more fun than being a well-known crafter in a game.
It's nice to be a star in a game in a sense to have that feeling, that notoriety, that celebrity ship, i mean, isn't that why we play games to be awesome cuz it's damn near impossible in real life lol. This last paragraph is a bit facetious but crafting to me is a way to be someone in which it isn't time-based it's partly intelligence based and with my busy schedule (full-time student) it's difficult for me to pour in the time. If i had unlimited time, then i'd try to kick everyone's ass but that's way more time consuming than crafting.
Back to SWG, i can't decide if i should sub to it, population is important .
In my opinion crafting should be a viable career choice and not a necessity and not completely useless. Viable in-game career choice and that's what i loved about EVE. You actually had career choices .
- trader, freighter, crafter, blueprint maker, PvPer, PvE, and all the subspecialties that you could choose. Whereas in WoW you are just a raider and in lineage 2 you are just a grinder and what not. I still can't believe i got addicted to L2/RoM .
Cryomatrix
Here let give you an example of what I am getting at.
The year is 2002/3 DAOC is all the rage. I crafted in DAoC. I was a master or something (not the grand master but the one below that) Crafting in DAoC at the time consisted of standing in front of a vendor and combining the crap and waiting for a really long timer bar to pass to see if you were even successful. Weeee....
Vanguard: Very intense crafting system. You needed ot pay attention at every step. making something was rewarding (although it got pretty grindy) HOWEVER the game completely undermined the crafter because at every step in the game, loot items were better. So, what incentive was there? For certain items, not much.
Many games are caught between these two extremes and end up looking like LotR in the end. A crafting system so dull one often seeks a fork to stick in the eye to keep at it.
EVE and to a lesser extent, SWG are much better for the crafter because they are much more complex and engaging. Although I never crafted in SWG, (to many poorly designed crafting systems has made me reluctant) I easily can see the impact through the player cities like Prom.
Strangely, all of my kids play Freerealms and my daughter maxed out a couple of the crafting things like Cook. Now I know it's a kids game but the crafting mini games were A) all different had some level of challenge built into them. She had to cut up the foods, cook them and mix them together to get the result. All I could think was "why can't adult MMO's build on an engaging system like that?"
Get where I'm coming from bud? I actually advocate complex and "fun" to do crafting not timer bars running across your screen.
As a PvE gamer, I have no interest in being someone elses entertainment.
Be it crafters or PvP ganking.
I wanna quest/loot for the Sword of Arse-Whupping +5...not buy it repeatably from crafters. As to make crafting a viable class, not only do you need folks to buy their gear from ya...you need a decay element to get repeat business.
Crafting based economies fit well into sandbox style games.
In PvE themepark games it needs to be a secondary skill.
Someone earlier mentioned they wish crafters to have as much to their skill trees as adventurers. To me these types of folks need to play Sims or sandbox games. It was great to hear the next MMO I intend to play(SW:TOR) is not going to have crafter classes.
IMO EQ had it right back when I left about 2005/2006...crafting can provide a few nice things. Overall though it is just filler.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
It depends what a game is trying to achieve. If its primarily action / loot based, obviously crafting is not going to be an important aspect. IMHO all these games that tried to do both at the same time have failed. Either a game is crafting based or loot based. You can't do both and not disrupt the balance for the crafter. (unless the loot is junk or components) The second you add the loot Uber sword, it disrupts and can negate a crafters place in the game world. This has played out in so many MMO's it's sad. Another weakness of crafting in MMO's is it is f*cking mind numbing, stupid repetitious and boring to do. Generally speaking it is a task best suited for people without a pulse.
One word "Vanguard" best crafting system of any mmorpg to date,dare i say better than SWG.
From items to houses to guild halls to ships/galleons to paint and bricks and 1000s of other items. Crafted item are really good and really put some of the looted items to shame. Crafting is level based,you really have to level it up like you would adventuring,it takes time.
You can just be a crafter and nothing else if you want.
this! vanguard had the best crafting/gathering in any game i played. it wasn't just click and its done, it had like a little mini-game to it and the better your was at it the better the item turned out. you had crafting armor you used in crafting, crafting had stats for it on the crafting armor. you even had harvesting gear and tools wich all had their own slots on your character so the crafting and harvesting gear didn't take up extra slots on it. and you could get different recipes for same level gear from different regions that looked different. it only makes sense that different cultures had different styled armor.
what made me first want to try crafting in Vanguard was when i saw some one walk up to what looked like scenery (tree) and start chopping it down. the tree fell over and then he started chopping the tree up into materials for crafting. and the higher your skill the more you could harvest from the tree.it was very well done, i never liked crafting in any other game, it's always so boring but in vanguard it was actually fun.
IMO all games need crafting ATLEAST for when you're level up your characters end game it can differ, but leveling up decent gear can be hard to find. making alts crafted gear is much better than running instances over and over for gear you'll just out grow soon anyway.
It depends what a game is trying to achieve. If its primarily action / loot based, obviously crafting is not going to be an important aspect. IMHO all these games that tried to do both at the same time have failed. Either a game is crafting based or loot based. You can't do both and not disrupt the balance for the crafter. (unless the loot is junk or components) The second you add the loot Uber sword, it disrupts and can negate a crafters place in the game world. This has played out in so many MMO's it's sad. Another weakness of crafting in MMO's is it is f*cking mind numbing, stupid repetitious and boring to do. Generally speaking it is a task best suited for people without a pulse.
One word "Vanguard" best crafting system of any mmorpg to date,dare i say better than SWG.
From items to houses to guild halls to ships/galleons to paint and bricks and 1000s of other items. Crafted item are really good and really put some of the looted items (but not all or even most)to shame. Crafting is level based,you really have to level it up like you would adventuring,it takes time.
You can just be a crafter and nothing else if you want.
Generally speaking - that was my key phrase. I was intending to point out the weaknesses of many games not bash on the strong ones. My bad there.
Yes I played a VG, it is a weak crafting game and here is why - I craftdr for a time and I saw the issue Loot was going to create for Armorers and Weaponsmiths. Loot was easier to obtain, cheaper (free as generally one only needed to complete a series of fairly easy kill task) and superior given the effort and speed of leveling then anything you could craft at most levels. Why seek out a crafter to make a weapon or armor for lots of gold pieces when you could just follow the generic level track and get everything you need along the way and level up without spending a copper? There is no inter-dependancy built into the game at all. So that fantasically engaging crafting system is wasted.
Not to mention the lack of population issues in that game make crafting for economic impact fairly impractical & pointless. If the game toned down loot, added player shops like they originally intended, maybe it would enjoy a resurgence. As it stands, SOE is basically sounding 'last call" with their latest VG plans.
I'm not much into crafting. I find the process, as many others have said, tedious.
But... It's clearly a big aspect for a lot of people (who have more patience than me) and I think games would be poorer for lacking the options.
I also think that crafters at the top of their trade should be able to make some of the best items in the game, at least equivalent to top tier dropped gear, and that the economy should be balanced to provide this at a sensible profit and a sensible cost.
I've always found the idea of adventurers going over every corpse to steal all their weapons odd, in WoW you can carry over 100 swords if you want to for example. I'm thinking that if that really happened my adventurer is bent over double and gets one shotted by a lvl 1 sprite for their stupidity.
And how does your typical dungeon brawler recognise the +0.02% of critical mighty blows on the rusty polearm in the recently deceased Orc's hands anyway? And how is it that the weapon is always the right size for your adventurer? Dwarf slaughters giant, and then goes wandering about using the giant's axe?
Surely it would be better for less rewards to drop here, there and everywhere, after all I have never met a tiger wearing a belt in real life (another WoW moment, kill animals, find gold and items, I mean wtf?) but bigger and more specific rewards, you're not just going random drop hunting, but because you've heard the wizard has an amazing and very powerful staff and a lot of cash hanging around, which would leave crafters to fill in the gaps in your armory or to tailor things you've found (for example keeping the bonus on the giant's wonder axe but resizing it for the dwarf).
That would make both crafting and adventuring more meaningful, and a little more like I'd expect a "real" fantasy world to be.
I'm not much into crafting. I find the process, as many others have said, tedious. But... It's clearly a big aspect for a lot of people (who have more patience than me) and I think games would be poorer for lacking the options. I also think that crafters at the top of their trade should be able to make some of the best items in the game, at least equivalent to top tier dropped gear, and that the economy should be balanced to provide this at a sensible profit and a sensible cost. I've always found the idea of adventurers going over every corpse to steal all their weapons odd, in WoW you can carry over 100 swords if you want to for example. I'm thinking that if that really happened my adventurer is bent over double and gets one shotted by a lvl 1 sprite for their stupidity. And how does your typical dungeon brawler recognise the +0.02% of critical mighty blows on the rusty polearm in the recently deceased Orc's hands anyway? And how is it that the weapon is always the right size for your adventurer? Dwarf slaughters giant, and then goes wandering about using the giant's axe? Surely it would be better for less rewards to drop here, there and everywhere, after all I have never met a tiger wearing a belt in real life (another WoW moment, kill animals, find gold and items, I mean wtf?) but bigger and more specific rewards, you're not just going random drop hunting, but because you've heard the wizard has an amazing and very powerful staff and a lot of cash hanging around, which would leave crafters to fill in the gaps in your armory or to tailor things you've found (for example keeping the bonus on the giant's wonder axe but resizing it for the dwarf). That would make both crafting and adventuring more meaningful, and a little more like I'd expect a "real" fantasy world to be.
While I agree with you on your point about the lack of realism, but it is a game, and realism is tedious. I suppose that they way to get around the "need" of carrying 100 swords is to make the sword valuable in some way, perhaps crafters can enhance found weapons, clean them up, resize them. Perhaps these weapons can vendor for a lot more than they do currently (increase their relative value so that carrying one or two provides the same value as carrying 100).
I don't remember animal mobs carrying gold, but it's been a while since I played WoW.
Important to me, cause to me MMORPG's can be so much more then these just combat oriented games they turn into.
But the majority has proven not to like crafting, they think it's tedious, boring and a waist of time, ashame this genre has atracted many close minded individuals. They seem to forget they have plenty of choices in this genre that don't involve allot of thought to crafting, yet they need to complain when a game might have abit more depth to crafting. I don't have to complain if some game might not have deep crafting, I simply choose not to play that game, unless there are other things in that game that might atract me.
This is a loaded question. It comes down to one thing: What game are the developers trying to make and how does crafting fit into this. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether any individual player wants crafting to be, not to be or whether it should be in an MMOG at all. That's as far as the discussion needs to go because the only other place it's going to go is into an argument about whether or not crafting should be in MMOGs at all based on personal preference... and having not even read one post in this thread I can guarantee you that is exactly what this thread has become...
"I hate crafting, it is stupid, boring, pointless, etc and never should be in an MMOG..."
"I love crafting, it should be super complicated and require spreadsheets, algorithms, PHDs in engineering, and thousands of hours of work to participate in. It should be like this in every MMOG..."
Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, ad nauseum...
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
As a former hardcore crafter (Torak named me that) in EVE here's my thoughts on crafting. In EVE i was able to make a business out of crafting ships to begin. It's how i first amassed my fortune. Since every crafted item in EVE is the same, I had to focus on streamlining my supply chain to get out cheaper ships and hope i'd make my profit off volume.
It worked, it was fun. Crafting was made necessary in EVE because if you lost a ship (fairly common occurrence) you'd need another one. In an alliance of a few hundred ships with a lot of pvpers, you could sell like 20-30 ships per week when there were perhaps 10-15 other crafters.
My idealogy with crafting is that it should be a viable option within the game and would probably lead to economic victory.
Crafting is WoW was dumb, crafting in lineage 2 was less dumb but not completely adequate. The tough part about crafting is making it comparable to loot items, so people don't just eschew it from teh beginning as it is pointless.
I would love a game where you could level up a skill in one crafting area that was so focused, people would look for you to make their sword of whatever and another crafter would level up polearms and another one would level up something so specific that they'd be the best crafter for that item on the server so people would have brand names. Someone wants a polearm, go to polearm-crafter best one in the game, toon wants to switch to spears, goes to the best spear-crafter in the game.
But the point as someone mentioned is how do you not saturate crafters. Daoc had item decay, in EVE you lose everything so quickly there's always demand for ships also the capital ships were so resource intensive that i am not sure supply could keep up wtih demand.
Essentially crafted items being shoved into the market in reality have to be taken out of the market somehow in order to maintain equillibrium. a full loot pvp system works but my issue with that is i don't want to spend so much goddamn time getting some item to have it lost in 5 minutes. It's a nice feeling to grind for some time to get awesome gear that sticks with you.
Perhaps a solution is to have raiders get craftable drops from bosses that are given/sold to crafters to make the kick ass items, or crafters have to go along in a raid and use special crafting equipment in the dungeon (i.e. use the molten forge of hotness) or some crap like that.
I know in WoW they had resources only obtainable in an instance to make a special type of gear, that was nice.
I am checking out crafting in SWG, hopefully it would be good, it's a shame the game isn't more popular, it has so much depth to it.
Cryo
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I'm not much into crafting. I find the process, as many others have said, tedious. But... It's clearly a big aspect for a lot of people (who have more patience than me) and I think games would be poorer for lacking the options. I also think that crafters at the top of their trade should be able to make some of the best items in the game, at least equivalent to top tier dropped gear, and that the economy should be balanced to provide this at a sensible profit and a sensible cost. I've always found the idea of adventurers going over every corpse to steal all their weapons odd, in WoW you can carry over 100 swords if you want to for example. I'm thinking that if that really happened my adventurer is bent over double and gets one shotted by a lvl 1 sprite for their stupidity. And how does your typical dungeon brawler recognise the +0.02% of critical mighty blows on the rusty polearm in the recently deceased Orc's hands anyway? And how is it that the weapon is always the right size for your adventurer? Dwarf slaughters giant, and then goes wandering about using the giant's axe? Surely it would be better for less rewards to drop here, there and everywhere, after all I have never met a tiger wearing a belt in real life (another WoW moment, kill animals, find gold and items, I mean wtf?) but bigger and more specific rewards, you're not just going random drop hunting, but because you've heard the wizard has an amazing and very powerful staff and a lot of cash hanging around, which would leave crafters to fill in the gaps in your armory or to tailor things you've found (for example keeping the bonus on the giant's wonder axe but resizing it for the dwarf). That would make both crafting and adventuring more meaningful, and a little more like I'd expect a "real" fantasy world to be.
While I agree with you on your point about the lack of realism, but it is a game, and realism is tedious. I suppose that they way to get around the "need" of carrying 100 swords is to make the sword valuable in some way, perhaps crafters can enhance found weapons, clean them up, resize them. Perhaps these weapons can vendor for a lot more than they do currently (increase their relative value so that carrying one or two provides the same value as carrying 100).
I don't remember animal mobs carrying gold, but it's been a while since I played WoW.
Skaroth
I don't think realism has to be tedious, you can certainly loot mobs for rings, watches, wallets (assuming they aren't tigers of course), but there's so little attempt at the large scale story in MMO's and there's plenty of scope for it.
I'd be happy to battle the million orcs (or insert other random mob choices here) with my friends to earn cash towards things I needed for my character and then the chance to pull the big ticket item at the end.
I'd be happy if we could develop characters with more depth rather than just a lvl x through y system, my mage should be able to learn spells from all schools of magic, why is it that a job that requires the waggling of fingers won't let my mage wear armor? It might take a caster more time to learn effective use of armor (as we assume warriors get their training earlier) but it should be possible.
Why do so many systems fail to allow cross classing, where are the warrior druids and the mage bezerkers? There are plenty of these types in modern fantasy.
And that's what crafting should enhance, the ability to stretch my characters through new challenges, why is it better for random stuff to fall off a tiger than for you to earn money and choose the way to enhance your character through networking the best crafters in a game? How is that more interesting? Surely the second way at least brings you into contact with other players and makes you live more in a community?
To me crafting is important. Non combat skills in general should be important in a mmo design because that is really one of the main things that set it apart from single player rpg. But sadly that has been forgotten and now we are left with these hollow impostors posing as mmorpgs.
Crafting should be like a separate game in the game. People who doesn't like it shouldn't need to bother but people who love it should be able to play only crafting (but should be forced to buy some rarer components that are growing in a dangerous place or are part of some weird monster).
The most important thing however is that crafting should be fun. You shouldn't be forced to craft a 100 bronze shortswords that no one will buy and you can't even give away or melt down for new swords again to learn how to craft a bronze longsword.
You should be able to melt down stuff made from the same metal at least so you don't have a lot of useless junk that you vendor-trash. Also gold should be expensive and rare, in EQ2 some gold jewelery are sold for silvercoins, that is just so stupid.
I also want crafting to be something that brings the guild together. Crafters should work together to build a town, make the guild cloaks, tabards or whatever else the guild have as symbols (like a special shield for a knight guild or a special looking armor). They should also be able to mint guild coins (well, the guild treasurer should be) so that the guilds could have an economy that are like a small kingdom.
And crafter should be able to give items a name, like Drapir (Dagger) or Sirion (Rapier) with the weapon type appearing behind the name when you examine it. The should also be able to make some choices about form and color of the item.
As for the most powerful things in the game: They should actually be both in many cases. The horrible demon Gukh drops a horn that can be made into a terrifying spear by a expert crafter.
Some can also be dropped of course but armor should really be crafted for the player by a npc or a player, it is just ridiculously to think that a gnome took his pants from an ogre, to borrow any kind of armor from another person is hard unless it is an chainmal (for the chest), they are made to be personal and a good opportunity to use the crafters, they should at least need a crafter to fit it before you can use it. A sword or a necklace is a different thing.
If every crafter could put their personal touch on a item (skin, color, name, effects) the game would be more interesting. All the coolest swords shouldn't look exact same and be named "Brandons longsword" but they should still have some things in common, like that the spear would have a specific looking tip but then some crafters put cloth or feathers where the shaft begins, some use a metal shaft or one from a odd looking wood, and some color it black or white.
Also I thing that jewelry should have a revamp for you game. Every guy have more jewelry on them today than a drag quess or Mr T. Imagine Conan with rings and pierced ears, not a pretty sight. For guys you can use jewelry like belt buckle, medal, weapon ornaments and tattoos instead. And the jewelry should actually be seen in game (I guess you can't because of the Conan thing in modern MMOs).
I have actually a lot of other ideas about crafting but the text is massive enough now.
I really enjoy crafting. I especially like it in Ryzom where you can have missions devoted solely to casting. You provide a service and it becomes your choice to become nothing more than a caster, but you can learn all the skills.
Originally posted by Darkholme This is a loaded question. It comes down to one thing: What game are the developers trying to make and how does crafting fit into this. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether any individual player wants crafting to be, not to be or whether it should be in an MMOG at all. That's as far as the discussion needs to go because the only other place it's going to go is into an argument about whether or not crafting should be in MMOGs at all based on personal preference... and having not even read one post in this thread I can guarantee you that is exactly what this thread has become... "I hate crafting, it is stupid, boring, pointless, etc and never should be in an MMOG..." "I love crafting, it should be super complicated and require spreadsheets, algorithms, PHDs in engineering, and thousands of hours of work to participate in. It should be like this in every MMOG..."Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, ad nauseum...
Actually, if you were to read the thread you'd realize people are not saying. I hate crafting cuz it's dumb or i love crafting and it should be this.
It's more like it should be a viable non-forced option . Read the posts before you turn the smug on.
Cryo
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I think it depends on the game. My personal opinion is that crafting should be important. Crafting classes and skills should be on par with combat classes and skills.
I agree when we're talking about an MMORPG. Crafting, imo, is part of the "rpg" aspect. It is, after all, how some of us choose to "earn our living" in a virtual world.
I actually LOVE when crafter is a pure class (or almost pure). If it's a class option, I will always have one character that does that. If it's just additional to other classes, I will STILL do it. I really enjoy crafting. Games that don't have it....won't hold my attention long AT ALL.
Crafting is on my list of wants, and it's pretty high up on that list actually. The thing is though, I want a very strong crafting system or I don't want one at all. I hate games with watered down crafting systems. (STO, CO). If there is crafting, it certainly should offer quality items that contend with anything but raid gear, but it shouldn't be forced on anyone (I've never played a game with it forced on someone but I know a lot of people who hate crafting. Well they say they hate crafting but then harvest items and sell them to crafters so... heh).
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
As i said earlier, crafting is pretty important to me, but i see a few people here say it should not equal raid gear...
If there is a way to get better gear than crafting in the game, I would think i wouldn't be interested in doing at all.
Why go through the(typicaly difficult) process of making a Sword+10, when i can go raid for a sword+11? As a filler item? I don't think i would want to bother..
Crafting should be very important, even though I rarely do it myself. Why? It gives a sense of community and a living, breathing world that single player games do not have.
The problem is having the right balance, for example, crafting in WoW for weapons and armor is pretty much useless, since better items can be easly found from monsters and raid bosses. SWG kinda did it right, crafted stuff in that game was always superior to stuff you could find, same with DAOC. IMO if your gonna have a crafting system make the crafted items better than anything that can be droped (Cept maybe endgame stuff) or just don't bother. Crafting in most korean mmo's should just be removed since they tend to need obscene amounts of materials(Aika online is a example 1 item i looked at for lv 40 needed about 100 of 5 diff items to make 1) and this is combined with a high fail rate. Or have crafting setup so crafting items aren't better than stuff u can get from a npc but crafters sell at a much lower price.
"An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words." -Poster on mmorpg.com
Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.
As i said earlier, crafting is pretty important to me, but i see a fewpeople here say it should not equal raid gear... If there is a way to get better gear than crafting in the game, I would think i wouldn't be interested in doing at all. Why go through the(typicaly difficult) process of making a Sword+10, when i can go raid for a sword+11? As a filler item? I don't think i would want to bother.. personal opinion only....
I agree, but the components for those uber-crafted gears should be rare/expensive. So not everyone and his uncle can make one and flood the market.
You need a balance between raid gear and crafted gear so neither of them becomes useless.
I guess the key equation for crafting is that it should be worth it.
No one would craft it isn't worth it. Likewise, no one would raid if it wasn't worth it. I've been in games before where people didn't bother with certain instances/bosses because the drops were not worth the cost. I've been in games WoW, RoM, where crafting wasn't even worth it.
Crafting was only viable in EVE because of all the PvP going on that if you looked at the display in the map of ships lost per sector it was obscene how many ships were destroyed in certain sectors at any given moment of the game.
Hence, it should be worth it. I also have no problem having an idea that i call legendary crafts, these items are ultra rare, and take an obscene amount of resources to make. Hence, anyone who could actually get it you would know they put in a huge amount of time to get it and they should be rewarded for that by having awesome gear.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I guess the key equation for crafting is that it should be worth it. No one would craft it isn't worth it. Likewise, no one would raid if it wasn't worth it. I've been in games before where people didn't bother with certain instances/bosses because the drops were not worth the cost. I've been in games WoW, RoM, where crafting wasn't even worth it. Crafting was only viable in EVE because of all the PvP going on that if you looked at the display in the map of ships lost per sector it was obscene how many ships were destroyed in certain sectors at any given moment of the game. Hence, it should be worth it. I also have no problem having an idea that i call legendary crafts, these items are ultra rare, and take an obscene amount of resources to make. Hence, anyone who could actually get it you would know they put in a huge amount of time to get it and they should be rewarded for that by having awesome gear. Cryomatrix
The idea is you pvp or pve to get money to buy crafted items, which help you be better at pve or pvp. Plus you pve or pvp to get materials to make crafted items. Then PVe isnt about gear, its about currency.
I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if someone mentioned this, but FFXIV has full item decay with player crafters being the only means of repairing them. Given that one character has access to all classes as well, the game can't rely on quests to supply gear so crafting is the best means of supplying one character with the required equipment everytime they switch, just like in FFXI.
IMO that's the level of importance crafting needs, an actual essential part of gameplay for everyone, not just some small side-game with a few benefits. People are actually speculating on if having a crafter in your group for repairs may be a good idea when doing some prolonged dungeon crawling.
Comments
I personally enjoy crafting, so long as I don't have to memorise every 10 thousand items available. What really kills the experience about crafting for me is storage management. I'll be there crafting and this thing I have no idea what it is get's spit out, so i save it, and that keeps on for awhile and I run out of space, so eventually I have to sell some of this stuff and later in the game I realise I sold something I could have gotten rich on without even knowing about. Grrr.
I think crafting adds to a game, If I were to make an MMO it would have crafting in it. But it wouldn't be meaningless crafting or a roll of the dice crafting. By roll of the dice crafting, I mean that there is a chance of failure.... What I would do instead of a roll of the dice crafting is a lower quality item instead.
But to answer the question- Because i enjoy crafting so much, it's pretty important to the game.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
Hey buddy, i resent this comment, i have a pulse
. To me crafting is important, i am trying out SWG (still on trial account) for the crafting alone. I was also a prolific crafter in EVE.
The reason i like crafting is it takes thought to be successful. In EVE, I had to constantly think how to streamline my supply chain in order to maximize my profit, i eventually realized that shipping was more profitable than building and so i did that
. I did however, craft a new ship the Orca when it came out and i raced to get the blueprint and get my supply chain ready to build it before anyone else came in order to price gouge my alliance 
I was still 200-300 million cheaper than in Jita 
. But yeah that was fun, the fact that instead of grinding xp or doing raids and raids, i had to use my brain to figure a way to get my xp (xp in EVE = was money). That's why i like crafting and i couldn't imagine things being more fun than being a well-known crafter in a game.
It's nice to be a star in a game in a sense to have that feeling, that notoriety, that celebrity ship, i mean, isn't that why we play games to be awesome cuz it's damn near impossible in real life lol. This last paragraph is a bit facetious but crafting to me is a way to be someone in which it isn't time-based it's partly intelligence based and with my busy schedule (full-time student) it's difficult for me to pour in the time. If i had unlimited time, then i'd try to kick everyone's ass but that's way more time consuming than crafting.
Back to SWG, i can't decide if i should sub to it, population is important
.
In my opinion crafting should be a viable career choice and not a necessity and not completely useless. Viable in-game career choice and that's what i loved about EVE. You actually had career choices
.
- trader, freighter, crafter, blueprint maker, PvPer, PvE, and all the subspecialties that you could choose. Whereas in WoW you are just a raider and in lineage 2 you are just a grinder and what not. I still can't believe i got addicted to L2/RoM
.
Cryomatrix
Here let give you an example of what I am getting at.
The year is 2002/3 DAOC is all the rage. I crafted in DAoC. I was a master or something (not the grand master but the one below that) Crafting in DAoC at the time consisted of standing in front of a vendor and combining the crap and waiting for a really long timer bar to pass to see if you were even successful. Weeee....
Vanguard: Very intense crafting system. You needed ot pay attention at every step. making something was rewarding (although it got pretty grindy) HOWEVER the game completely undermined the crafter because at every step in the game, loot items were better. So, what incentive was there? For certain items, not much.
Many games are caught between these two extremes and end up looking like LotR in the end. A crafting system so dull one often seeks a fork to stick in the eye to keep at it.
EVE and to a lesser extent, SWG are much better for the crafter because they are much more complex and engaging. Although I never crafted in SWG, (to many poorly designed crafting systems has made me reluctant) I easily can see the impact through the player cities like Prom.
Strangely, all of my kids play Freerealms and my daughter maxed out a couple of the crafting things like Cook. Now I know it's a kids game but the crafting mini games were A) all different
had some level of challenge built into them. She had to cut up the foods, cook them and mix them together to get the result. All I could think was "why can't adult MMO's build on an engaging system like that?"
Get where I'm coming from bud? I actually advocate complex and "fun" to do crafting not timer bars running across your screen.
As a PvE gamer, I have no interest in being someone elses entertainment.
Be it crafters or PvP ganking.
I wanna quest/loot for the Sword of Arse-Whupping +5...not buy it repeatably from crafters. As to make crafting a viable class, not only do you need folks to buy their gear from ya...you need a decay element to get repeat business.
Crafting based economies fit well into sandbox style games.
In PvE themepark games it needs to be a secondary skill.
Someone earlier mentioned they wish crafters to have as much to their skill trees as adventurers. To me these types of folks need to play Sims or sandbox games. It was great to hear the next MMO I intend to play(SW:TOR) is not going to have crafter classes.
IMO EQ had it right back when I left about 2005/2006...crafting can provide a few nice things. Overall though it is just filler.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
One word "Vanguard" best crafting system of any mmorpg to date,dare i say better than SWG.
From items to houses to guild halls to ships/galleons to paint and bricks and 1000s of other items. Crafted item are really good and really put some of the looted items to shame. Crafting is level based,you really have to level it up like you would adventuring,it takes time.
You can just be a crafter and nothing else if you want.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
It's worth just downloading the free trail to check it out.
vanguard.station.sony.com/isleofdawn/
this! vanguard had the best crafting/gathering in any game i played. it wasn't just click and its done, it had like a little mini-game to it and the better your was at it the better the item turned out. you had crafting armor you used in crafting, crafting had stats for it on the crafting armor. you even had harvesting gear and tools wich all had their own slots on your character so the crafting and harvesting gear didn't take up extra slots on it. and you could get different recipes for same level gear from different regions that looked different. it only makes sense that different cultures had different styled armor.
what made me first want to try crafting in Vanguard was when i saw some one walk up to what looked like scenery (tree) and start chopping it down. the tree fell over and then he started chopping the tree up into materials for crafting. and the higher your skill the more you could harvest from the tree.it was very well done, i never liked crafting in any other game, it's always so boring but in vanguard it was actually fun.
IMO all games need crafting ATLEAST for when you're level up your characters end game it can differ, but leveling up decent gear can be hard to find. making alts crafted gear is much better than running instances over and over for gear you'll just out grow soon anyway.
One word "Vanguard" best crafting system of any mmorpg to date,dare i say better than SWG.
From items to houses to guild halls to ships/galleons to paint and bricks and 1000s of other items. Crafted item are really good and really put some of the looted items (but not all or even most)to shame. Crafting is level based,you really have to level it up like you would adventuring,it takes time.
You can just be a crafter and nothing else if you want.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
It's worth just downloading the free trail to check it out.
vanguard.station.sony.com/isleofdawn/
Generally speaking - that was my key phrase. I was intending to point out the weaknesses of many games not bash on the strong ones. My bad there.
Yes I played a VG, it is a weak crafting game and here is why - I craftdr for a time and I saw the issue Loot was going to create for Armorers and Weaponsmiths. Loot was easier to obtain, cheaper (free as generally one only needed to complete a series of fairly easy kill task) and superior given the effort and speed of leveling then anything you could craft at most levels. Why seek out a crafter to make a weapon or armor for lots of gold pieces when you could just follow the generic level track and get everything you need along the way and level up without spending a copper? There is no inter-dependancy built into the game at all. So that fantasically engaging crafting system is wasted.
Not to mention the lack of population issues in that game make crafting for economic impact fairly impractical & pointless. If the game toned down loot, added player shops like they originally intended, maybe it would enjoy a resurgence. As it stands, SOE is basically sounding 'last call" with their latest VG plans.
I'm not much into crafting. I find the process, as many others have said, tedious.
But... It's clearly a big aspect for a lot of people (who have more patience than me) and I think games would be poorer for lacking the options.
I also think that crafters at the top of their trade should be able to make some of the best items in the game, at least equivalent to top tier dropped gear, and that the economy should be balanced to provide this at a sensible profit and a sensible cost.
I've always found the idea of adventurers going over every corpse to steal all their weapons odd, in WoW you can carry over 100 swords if you want to for example. I'm thinking that if that really happened my adventurer is bent over double and gets one shotted by a lvl 1 sprite for their stupidity.
And how does your typical dungeon brawler recognise the +0.02% of critical mighty blows on the rusty polearm in the recently deceased Orc's hands anyway? And how is it that the weapon is always the right size for your adventurer? Dwarf slaughters giant, and then goes wandering about using the giant's axe?
Surely it would be better for less rewards to drop here, there and everywhere, after all I have never met a tiger wearing a belt in real life (another WoW moment, kill animals, find gold and items, I mean wtf?) but bigger and more specific rewards, you're not just going random drop hunting, but because you've heard the wizard has an amazing and very powerful staff and a lot of cash hanging around, which would leave crafters to fill in the gaps in your armory or to tailor things you've found (for example keeping the bonus on the giant's wonder axe but resizing it for the dwarf).
That would make both crafting and adventuring more meaningful, and a little more like I'd expect a "real" fantasy world to be.
While I agree with you on your point about the lack of realism, but it is a game, and realism is tedious. I suppose that they way to get around the "need" of carrying 100 swords is to make the sword valuable in some way, perhaps crafters can enhance found weapons, clean them up, resize them. Perhaps these weapons can vendor for a lot more than they do currently (increase their relative value so that carrying one or two provides the same value as carrying 100).
I don't remember animal mobs carrying gold, but it's been a while since I played WoW.
Skaroth
See the violence inherent in the system!
Important to me, cause to me MMORPG's can be so much more then these just combat oriented games they turn into.
But the majority has proven not to like crafting, they think it's tedious, boring and a waist of time, ashame this genre has atracted many close minded individuals. They seem to forget they have plenty of choices in this genre that don't involve allot of thought to crafting, yet they need to complain when a game might have abit more depth to crafting. I don't have to complain if some game might not have deep crafting, I simply choose not to play that game, unless there are other things in that game that might atract me.
This is a loaded question. It comes down to one thing: What game are the developers trying to make and how does crafting fit into this. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether any individual player wants crafting to be, not to be or whether it should be in an MMOG at all. That's as far as the discussion needs to go because the only other place it's going to go is into an argument about whether or not crafting should be in MMOGs at all based on personal preference... and having not even read one post in this thread I can guarantee you that is exactly what this thread has become...
"I hate crafting, it is stupid, boring, pointless, etc and never should be in an MMOG..."
"I love crafting, it should be super complicated and require spreadsheets, algorithms, PHDs in engineering, and thousands of hours of work to participate in. It should be like this in every MMOG..."
Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, ad nauseum...
-------------------------
"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
As a former hardcore crafter (Torak named me that) in EVE here's my thoughts on crafting. In EVE i was able to make a business out of crafting ships to begin. It's how i first amassed my fortune. Since every crafted item in EVE is the same, I had to focus on streamlining my supply chain to get out cheaper ships and hope i'd make my profit off volume.
It worked, it was fun. Crafting was made necessary in EVE because if you lost a ship (fairly common occurrence) you'd need another one. In an alliance of a few hundred ships with a lot of pvpers, you could sell like 20-30 ships per week when there were perhaps 10-15 other crafters.
My idealogy with crafting is that it should be a viable option within the game and would probably lead to economic victory.
Crafting is WoW was dumb, crafting in lineage 2 was less dumb but not completely adequate. The tough part about crafting is making it comparable to loot items, so people don't just eschew it from teh beginning as it is pointless.
I would love a game where you could level up a skill in one crafting area that was so focused, people would look for you to make their sword of whatever and another crafter would level up polearms and another one would level up something so specific that they'd be the best crafter for that item on the server so people would have brand names. Someone wants a polearm, go to polearm-crafter best one in the game, toon wants to switch to spears, goes to the best spear-crafter in the game.
But the point as someone mentioned is how do you not saturate crafters. Daoc had item decay, in EVE you lose everything so quickly there's always demand for ships also the capital ships were so resource intensive that i am not sure supply could keep up wtih demand.
Essentially crafted items being shoved into the market in reality have to be taken out of the market somehow in order to maintain equillibrium. a full loot pvp system works but my issue with that is i don't want to spend so much goddamn time getting some item to have it lost in 5 minutes. It's a nice feeling to grind for some time to get awesome gear that sticks with you.
Perhaps a solution is to have raiders get craftable drops from bosses that are given/sold to crafters to make the kick ass items, or crafters have to go along in a raid and use special crafting equipment in the dungeon (i.e. use the molten forge of hotness) or some crap like that.
I know in WoW they had resources only obtainable in an instance to make a special type of gear, that was nice.
I am checking out crafting in SWG, hopefully it would be good, it's a shame the game isn't more popular, it has so much depth to it.
Cryo
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
While I agree with you on your point about the lack of realism, but it is a game, and realism is tedious. I suppose that they way to get around the "need" of carrying 100 swords is to make the sword valuable in some way, perhaps crafters can enhance found weapons, clean them up, resize them. Perhaps these weapons can vendor for a lot more than they do currently (increase their relative value so that carrying one or two provides the same value as carrying 100).
I don't remember animal mobs carrying gold, but it's been a while since I played WoW.
Skaroth
I don't think realism has to be tedious, you can certainly loot mobs for rings, watches, wallets (assuming they aren't tigers of course), but there's so little attempt at the large scale story in MMO's and there's plenty of scope for it.
I'd be happy to battle the million orcs (or insert other random mob choices here) with my friends to earn cash towards things I needed for my character and then the chance to pull the big ticket item at the end.
I'd be happy if we could develop characters with more depth rather than just a lvl x through y system, my mage should be able to learn spells from all schools of magic, why is it that a job that requires the waggling of fingers won't let my mage wear armor? It might take a caster more time to learn effective use of armor (as we assume warriors get their training earlier) but it should be possible.
Why do so many systems fail to allow cross classing, where are the warrior druids and the mage bezerkers? There are plenty of these types in modern fantasy.
And that's what crafting should enhance, the ability to stretch my characters through new challenges, why is it better for random stuff to fall off a tiger than for you to earn money and choose the way to enhance your character through networking the best crafters in a game? How is that more interesting? Surely the second way at least brings you into contact with other players and makes you live more in a community?
To me crafting is important. Non combat skills in general should be important in a mmo design because that is really one of the main things that set it apart from single player rpg. But sadly that has been forgotten and now we are left with these hollow impostors posing as mmorpgs.
Crafting should be like a separate game in the game. People who doesn't like it shouldn't need to bother but people who love it should be able to play only crafting (but should be forced to buy some rarer components that are growing in a dangerous place or are part of some weird monster).
The most important thing however is that crafting should be fun. You shouldn't be forced to craft a 100 bronze shortswords that no one will buy and you can't even give away or melt down for new swords again to learn how to craft a bronze longsword.
You should be able to melt down stuff made from the same metal at least so you don't have a lot of useless junk that you vendor-trash. Also gold should be expensive and rare, in EQ2 some gold jewelery are sold for silvercoins, that is just so stupid.
I also want crafting to be something that brings the guild together. Crafters should work together to build a town, make the guild cloaks, tabards or whatever else the guild have as symbols (like a special shield for a knight guild or a special looking armor). They should also be able to mint guild coins (well, the guild treasurer should be) so that the guilds could have an economy that are like a small kingdom.
And crafter should be able to give items a name, like Drapir (Dagger) or Sirion (Rapier) with the weapon type appearing behind the name when you examine it. The should also be able to make some choices about form and color of the item.
As for the most powerful things in the game: They should actually be both in many cases. The horrible demon Gukh drops a horn that can be made into a terrifying spear by a expert crafter.
Some can also be dropped of course but armor should really be crafted for the player by a npc or a player, it is just ridiculously to think that a gnome took his pants from an ogre, to borrow any kind of armor from another person is hard unless it is an chainmal (for the chest), they are made to be personal and a good opportunity to use the crafters, they should at least need a crafter to fit it before you can use it. A sword or a necklace is a different thing.
If every crafter could put their personal touch on a item (skin, color, name, effects) the game would be more interesting. All the coolest swords shouldn't look exact same and be named "Brandons longsword" but they should still have some things in common, like that the spear would have a specific looking tip but then some crafters put cloth or feathers where the shaft begins, some use a metal shaft or one from a odd looking wood, and some color it black or white.
Also I thing that jewelry should have a revamp for you game. Every guy have more jewelry on them today than a drag quess or Mr T. Imagine Conan with rings and pierced ears, not a pretty sight. For guys you can use jewelry like belt buckle, medal, weapon ornaments and tattoos instead. And the jewelry should actually be seen in game (I guess you can't because of the Conan thing in modern MMOs).
I have actually a lot of other ideas about crafting but the text is massive enough now.
I really enjoy crafting. I especially like it in Ryzom where you can have missions devoted solely to casting. You provide a service and it becomes your choice to become nothing more than a caster, but you can learn all the skills.
www.ryzom.com
Actually, if you were to read the thread you'd realize people are not saying. I hate crafting cuz it's dumb or i love crafting and it should be this.
It's more like it should be a viable non-forced option
. Read the posts before you turn the smug on.
Cryo
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I agree when we're talking about an MMORPG. Crafting, imo, is part of the "rpg" aspect. It is, after all, how some of us choose to "earn our living" in a virtual world.
I actually LOVE when crafter is a pure class (or almost pure). If it's a class option, I will always have one character that does that. If it's just additional to other classes, I will STILL do it. I really enjoy crafting. Games that don't have it....won't hold my attention long AT ALL.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Crafting is on my list of wants, and it's pretty high up on that list actually. The thing is though, I want a very strong crafting system or I don't want one at all. I hate games with watered down crafting systems. (STO, CO). If there is crafting, it certainly should offer quality items that contend with anything but raid gear, but it shouldn't be forced on anyone (I've never played a game with it forced on someone but I know a lot of people who hate crafting. Well they say they hate crafting but then harvest items and sell them to crafters so... heh).
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
As i said earlier, crafting is pretty important to me, but i see a few people here say it should not equal raid gear...
If there is a way to get better gear than crafting in the game, I would think i wouldn't be interested in doing at all.
Why go through the(typicaly difficult) process of making a Sword+10, when i can go raid for a sword+11? As a filler item? I don't think i would want to bother..
personal opinion only....
Crafting should be very important, even though I rarely do it myself. Why? It gives a sense of community and a living, breathing world that single player games do not have.
The problem is having the right balance, for example, crafting in WoW for weapons and armor is pretty much useless, since better items can be easly found from monsters and raid bosses. SWG kinda did it right, crafted stuff in that game was always superior to stuff you could find, same with DAOC. IMO if your gonna have a crafting system make the crafted items better than anything that can be droped (Cept maybe endgame stuff) or just don't bother. Crafting in most korean mmo's should just be removed since they tend to need obscene amounts of materials(Aika online is a example 1 item i looked at for lv 40 needed about 100 of 5 diff items to make 1) and this is combined with a high fail rate. Or have crafting setup so crafting items aren't better than stuff u can get from a npc but crafters sell at a much lower price.
"An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words."
-Poster on mmorpg.com
Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.
I agree, but the components for those uber-crafted gears should be rare/expensive. So not everyone and his uncle can make one and flood the market.
You need a balance between raid gear and crafted gear so neither of them becomes useless.
I guess the key equation for crafting is that it should be worth it.
No one would craft it isn't worth it. Likewise, no one would raid if it wasn't worth it. I've been in games before where people didn't bother with certain instances/bosses because the drops were not worth the cost. I've been in games WoW, RoM, where crafting wasn't even worth it.
Crafting was only viable in EVE because of all the PvP going on that if you looked at the display in the map of ships lost per sector it was obscene how many ships were destroyed in certain sectors at any given moment of the game.
Hence, it should be worth it. I also have no problem having an idea that i call legendary crafts, these items are ultra rare, and take an obscene amount of resources to make. Hence, anyone who could actually get it you would know they put in a huge amount of time to get it and they should be rewarded for that by having awesome gear.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The idea is you pvp or pve to get money to buy crafted items, which help you be better at pve or pvp. Plus you pve or pvp to get materials to make crafted items. Then PVe isnt about gear, its about currency.
I haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if someone mentioned this, but FFXIV has full item decay with player crafters being the only means of repairing them. Given that one character has access to all classes as well, the game can't rely on quests to supply gear so crafting is the best means of supplying one character with the required equipment everytime they switch, just like in FFXI.
IMO that's the level of importance crafting needs, an actual essential part of gameplay for everyone, not just some small side-game with a few benefits. People are actually speculating on if having a crafter in your group for repairs may be a good idea when doing some prolonged dungeon crawling.
Super important.
However, most, if not all developers in this day and age are totally in the dark on the why's and how's.