It depends on the quality of PvE. Most games out today have horrible PvE so they need a bit of PvP to keep things exciting.
I enjoyed playing EQ for 5+ years on a PvE server. Now any game I play must have PvP simply because the PvE is not challenging and not fun.
not true I found the PVE in DDO both challenging and fun......gotta slow down and pay attention
I played DDO for about 2 months and just couldnt get into it. Since it eventually went F2P I assume the majority of players didnt enjoy it either. I'm not a fan of instancing nor small scale PvE which is all DDO had when I played it. If they had some open world dungeons and 40-60 man raids that were challenging like the old EQ raids then I might consider it fun.
Games with heavy PvE content with the people acting like that with poor social coping skills in the above capped text are usually self-policing. Anyone who has played a PvE game like FFXI will tell you those people above saying that nonsense would get blackballed and put on /block lists. PvP'rs have used similar lists as well. Myself and a few others when playing healer's have on more than one occassion put people on the "Do not heal" list. Being able to self-police is a matter of game mechanics more than playerbase. It would be safe to assume that most MMO players have played at least 2-3 different MMO's so a lot of the communities have rotated through different games.
No one wants their PvE experience ruined by people like that with poor social skills, so those people usually find themselves without parties since they obviously have social problems dealing with their fellow man/woman and treating them with basic respect Most people don't want their pvp exerience ruined by people like this either. At least in a pvp environment I can either kill them, or out perform them.
The funny thing is that I usually see those "Glad you are leaving our pvp game, noob. Carebears leave now" types really aren't sad to see non-pvp players leave. They take up the majority of their "fame/rank/standing/prestige" points that make them so "famous" in the first place because they simply choose to live on this type of opponent.
The majority of people I see claiming to be "good" at pvp are usually spending ways to find out how they can get the easy kills or game exploits on people doing something OTHER than PvP at the time i.e. (Farming mobs, collecting resources for crafting, away from keyboard to answer the door, etc...) Then they brag later about their leet skills. Have you really seen the "majority" of pvp'rs ? Across all MMO's?? A huge exaggeration on your part. Even if you played 20 hours a day for 7 days a week for the last 9 years, you still would not have seen but a minuscule fraction of any pvp encounters or the entire MMO playerbase as a whole. Your claim here is laughable.
Don't even get started on the gold buyers who have to have the good gear to beat anyone in a pvp game, or the outright hackers who can't stand losing so they hack to hit you from under the floor, fly in the air (in non flying games), run with superspeed that even the Flash couldn't catch, or simply wear cloth and laugh while an entire guild is beating on them doing 1 dmg point each, lol. So you think the PVE'rs do not buy gold? You think hacks and exploits are limited only to the pvp crowd and not the pve crowd? Accept the fact that cheaters exist in both crowds and they are both equally lame.
Pvp rocks.. yawn.
Very rarely in any pvp I have played in the last few years that has some type of open world are these "hardcore" gamers fighting worthy opponents because those losses drop their rankings and muss their epeen, so they choose to go after the carebears. Heck, a lot even brag about it, then when you call them out on it later, they claim they really go after the "tougher" opponents and was just "having fun griefing". Can't have it both ways, friend... youre either a ganker or you're not. This could be more due to the fact that there haven't been many games who have made meaningful pvp with a sandbox approach. Deathmatches and Arenas suck.
Basically, if Pvp people left Pve games, no one would notice really since its such a small part of the overall MMO population, seeing how the typical MMO players are casual players and prefer PvE. But if Pve people left pvp based games, most of those games would collapse overnight, or be like ghost towns. Do you really have the numbers to back this claim or are you exaggerating again? Because if you look at the games list on this site you'll see that almost all games that have been released or are in production include pvp. That doesn't suggest that the pvp crowd is as small as you try to make it seem.
Lets be honest here. most of the games that you see with PVP in, it mostly geared towards end content. That not to say there none any eariler, but most game set a truely low end level. Kudos to games like WOW, who do continously up the level rate, and give newer stuff to do. However it still remains, half the PVP that is in games is there cos you hit the end level barrier and really, what else is there to do? (normally I go back and do achievements that I havent done)
You could start a new char but let face it, sometimes going through the same old levels can be less appealing, and for some of the things you want to do, game mechanics sometimes make it hard, or maybe even the time you play. Wanted a particular item that was part of a group quest and in the end had to just give up cos you just couldnt get that group together? Yeah sometimes your lucky and can get a group together or even people in your guild to help.
Anarchy online by funcom, had a great approach. yeah it had pvp. but it had something like 200 odd levels that you could do just doing PVE stuff (and believe me, it does take a damn long time). To those who argue that just too long to level up to end level I say, Why? Why do you need to get to end level that quick? To look like a peacock? To proudly strut your stuff in the main town? Personally I loved that long levelling cos it took so damn long to level one char, that quite frankly I forgotten most of the starter stuff.
Would I play an all PVE game? Yeah sure I probably would. But would I always stay? That Im not too sure on. There are days when I do feel the need, when I had a bad day, to find someone and pound their char into the ground. When I do feel a flush of achievement when I beaten someone of equal level and gearage.
But then, I do love those days, when I managed to help out my guild mates in their missions, gathered stuff for the guild that will help others in the guild. Do crafting and help out a player who would like some stuff, but cos he is a causual player, He cant possibly get those stuff, unless he lucky and gets it one of the rare times.
In short, there is always gonna be a need for pure PVP mmo, PVE-PVP mmo, and Im just shocked really, that there isnt a noteworthy Pure PVE mmo out there. Final Fantasy has been mentioned, but I remember my old console days with Final Fantasy too fondly, that I just probably wouldnt find it as appealing as a MMO. but that just me.
To have good PVP ya need to get cheaters, botters, and hackers out.
A good PVE game can create a big variety of ineresting and diffcult scenarious to conquer,
where many mmorpg pvp games just turn into a zerg fest, high lvl ganks low lvl , end gear ganks casual gear.
So i would totaly play full PVE.
____________________ It`s alright
AC2,AO,D&L,Lotro,VsoH,SWG,Uo,HGL,Drunners,CoH,GW,Potbs,PWI Eq2,Dofus,WoW,WWIIO,Ryzom,Planetside,EvE,TR,DDO,RFonline,FOM,VC,..etc blabla also hobbies....staring at loadingbars
In short, there is always gonna be a need for pure PVP mmo, PVE-PVP mmo, and Im just shocked really, that there isnt a noteworthy Pure PVE mmo out there. Final Fantasy has been mentioned, but I remember my old console days with Final Fantasy too fondly, that I just probably wouldnt find it as appealing as a MMO. but that just me.
For all intent and purposes, LOTRO is a pure pve game.
The pvp portion is completely separate and has nothing to do with the rest of the game. I would also add vanguard to that mix as well even with its issues.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
However, those arent the only PvP type games that exist..
DAoC and Warhammer brought in two games with a very different type of PvP, RvR, Aion as well (though i havent played it, so i cant give specifics) as just a few examples.. I'm curious why you have to judge the majority of PvPers from what we all will agree is a very niche' type of game..
Well, Doac and War were both made by the same company, Mythic. So they aren't certainly aren't "very" different types of Pvp games as you claim.
Moreover, Realm vs Realm pvp (RvR) is still... say it... PvP. It's done on a larger scale at times but not always, and eventually will probably end up in a giant zerg. There is more small man group action in War than large scale Realm vs Realm action.
So in the end, its still all player vs player (PvP) because its players killing other players.. no matter how many. Instead of small team ganking like in other games, you have zerg ganking. No difference.
Your position that they are "very different" types of games doesn't hold all that much water.It's like saying a Whopper with bacon and a Double Cheeseburger with extra pickles are two "very" different burgers. There are differences, but the end result is they both are burgers although one doesnt come with tomatoes and lettuce.
As to the majority, I don't think I said the majority are this way or that way. I think if you read carefully, I pretty much state what type of PvP player that is I described. I did not say that's the majority, however, that is the majority of ones I have seen acting that way. I think enough people have seen hardcore PvPers to understand what the underlying attitude of them in game is. I sure hope this isn't a case where someone tried on a shoe and it fit nicely.
Most pvpers log in, kill someone for an hour or two and log. That is not the people I am speaking of, and I'm pretty sure you knew that unless you were skimming and scanning my text.
The majority of people I see claiming to be "good" at pvp are usually spending ways to find out how they can get the easy kills or game exploits on people doing something OTHER than PvP at the time i.e. (Farming mobs, collecting resources for crafting, away from keyboard to answer the door, etc...) Then they brag later about their leet skills.
Originally posted by Greenie Have you really seen the "majority" of pvp'rs ? Across all MMO's?? A huge exaggeration on your part. Even if you played 20 hours a day for 7 days a week for the last 9 years, you still would not have seen but a minuscule fraction of any pvp encounters or the entire MMO playerbase as a whole. Your claim here is laughable.
1. I made no claims about anything other than the players I see. That may only work out to 1% of pver's or even less. I am not here speaking about the majority of pvpers; just the majority of hardcore pvpers I have seen. Capice?
2. I spoke nothing about "all MMOs".
I won't go any further with rebuttals until we get this part straight because you've started your post off on the wrong foot with a faulty premise here.
You have either:
A. Misread what I wrote and then had your whole opinion based on that misreading.
B. Read correctly what I wrote, and still claimed that I was exaggeration when you put in your own variables I said nothing about initally ("all MMOs)
C. Got offended somehow and then went on the defensive.
p.s. Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people.
But really quick to address a quick point as a side; in a PvP game, goldbuying is a gamekiller. Why? I hope you don't really need me to explain to you why it's an issue in that game and not PvE.
p.s. Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people.
But really quick to address a quick point as a side; in a PvP game, goldbuying is a gamekiller. Why? I hope you don't really need me to explain to you why it's an issue in that game and not PvE.
Gold-buying in any type of game can have negative impacts on the economy, even PvE.
The majority of people I see claiming to be "good" at pvp are usually spending ways to find out how they can get the easy kills or game exploits on people doing something OTHER than PvP at the time i.e. (Farming mobs, collecting resources for crafting, away from keyboard to answer the door, etc...) Then they brag later about their leet skills.
Originally posted by Greenie
Have you really seen the "majority" of pvp'rs ? Across all MMO's?? A huge exaggeration on your part. Even if you played 20 hours a day for 7 days a week for the last 9 years, you still would not have seen but a minuscule fraction of any pvp encounters or the entire MMO playerbase as a whole. Your claim here is laughable.
I won't go any further with rebuttals until we get this part straight because you've started your post off on the wrong foot with a faulty premise here.
You have either:
A. Misread what I wrote and then had your whole opinion based on that misreading.
p.s. Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people.
But really quick to address a quick point as a side; in a PvP game, goldbuying is a gamekiller. Why? I hope you don't really need me to explain to you why it's an issue in that game and not PvE.
You are correct, I did misread what you wrote. I do find it funny that you added Option B. That I misread and "still posted on an inaccurate rebuttal based on that misreading, knowingly. That to me screams of cynicism on your part, which is why I can see you have the attitude towards pvp'rs that you do. If you didn't possess any cynicism you wouldn't even have thought to put that down as an option. Just a thought. And yea, of course I get defensive, because I love pvp and at the same time, I don't corpse camp, don't trash talk, love helping people out in pvp and pve whenever I have the time. I love playing support characters that round out a group, but every anti-pvp'r in the world exaggerates one segment of the pvp population as to being the norm.
Also, goldbuying being an issue that affects your gameplay wasn't the point. The point was, pve'rs and pvp'rs alike buy gold. There are cheaters in both areas.
Goldbuying in a game is actually not a game killer in a pvp game. People could buy gold and PL in DaoC on the open market, didn't affect me. All goldbuying does is drive up prices of items making me work longer to get them. Sure it sucks and I don't like it, but it's not going to actually change the gameplay or my ability to compete. (Unless you're talking about timed spawns on bosses with lockout timers -which is a horrible and stupid game mechanic that should never exist)
No problem for me. I dislike PvP, and as mentioned by a few people, PvP seems to encourage drama and quarrels within the community, due to the very nature of the PvP (fighting each other, ganking, etc.)
Sure I will if the game has strong PVE elements. No PVP is an strong PVE MMO isn't a problem as I can just treat the PVP part as just a minigame I don't play. Do you know how many MMO players also play single player RPG and FPS? Those people can certainly live without PVP in the MMO they play.
However, those arent the only PvP type games that exist.. DAoC and Warhammer brought in two games with a very different type of PvP, RvR, Aion as well (though i havent played it, so i cant give specifics) as just a few examples.. I'm curious why you have to judge the majority of PvPers from what we all will agree is a very niche' type of game..
Well, Doac and War were both made by the same company, Mythic. So they aren't certainly aren't "very" different types of Pvp games as you claim.
I think its safe to say they are very different the ones you were describing, where people gank noobs, cheat, and hang around buying gold all day in what you may be describing as an indie company game, with full open PvP.
Moreover, Realm vs Realm pvp (RvR) is still... say it... PvP. It's done on a larger scale at times but not always, and eventually will probably end up in a giant zerg. There is more small man group action in War than large scale Realm vs Realm action.
Yes, it is PvP, i thought thats what we were talking about here.
So which is it? Probably a zerg or small scale? I still play, and i find plenty of both, do zergs happen? Yes, but trying to beat the odds in a defensive position can be enjoyable. Does it always work? Nope. I wasn't saying either of the games were perfect, once again, I was disputing your view of PvPers in general.
So in the end, its still all player vs player (PvP) because its players killing other players.. no matter how many. Instead of small team ganking like in other games, you have zerg ganking. No difference.
Your position that they are "very different" types of games doesn't hold all that much water.It's like saying a Whopper with bacon and a Double Cheeseburger with extra pickles are two "very" different burgers. There are differences, but the end result is they both are burgers although one doesnt come with tomatoes and lettuce.
See my first statment
As to the majority, I don't think I said the majority are this way or that way. I think if you read carefully, I pretty much state what type of PvP player that is I described. I did not say that's the majority, however, that is the majority of ones I have seen acting that way. I think enough people have seen hardcore PvPers to understand what the underlying attitude of them in game is. I sure hope this isn't a case where someone tried on a shoe and it fit nicely.
You said:
"The majority of people I see claiming to be "good" at pvp are usually spending ways to find out how they can get the easy kills or game exploits on people"
So from your pov, the majority of those good at PvP exploit, cheat, and just get easy kills? Excellent..
Most pvpers log in, kill someone for an hour or two and log.
That is not the people I am speaking of, and I'm pretty sure you knew that unless you were skimming and scanning my text.
Ahh, so if they are mediocre at PvP, they can't possibly be cheating? Is that it? But Lord knows, if they beat you... well...
I wasn't skimming, I read it, and felt you basically generalized "most" good PvPers as exploiters, cheaters, noob killers, and gold buyers.. I don't think i was that far off.
As I said, I'm not saying any game is perfect, PvP, PvE or some mix of both... I enjoy PvP, you like PvE, i have no problem with that.
But your generalization of PvPers is pretty typical.. I really enjoy those who would question the maturity level of "all" PvPers, all the while refering to them with words a 13 year old would say....
I can't be bothered to read through this entire topic, but yeah, easily. The entire concept of MMORPGs directly go against skilled PVP. Levels, gear, class balance, ability to outnumber your opponent, ability to attack your opponent while they're already fighting monsters... they do nothing to encourage personal skill. If you beat someone, is it really because you're better -- or is it because you entered the fight with an inherent advantage making it impossible for the other person to succeed against you? If it's the latter, is it the least bit enjoyable knowing that? On the other hand games like Quake, UT, Counter-Strike -- those are entirely pure skill, the person who plays better comes out on top, it's actually satisfying knowing that your victory is a result of that.
I have trouble understanding anyone who gets a higher amount of enjoyment from PVP in MMOs than in games designed around perfectly balanced PVP at their core. Especially considering one you end up paying a one time fee for life, the other you continuously pay $15 a month for. Are you simply unskilled, and as such downright awful at games that take a real amount of skill, but want to still experience "winning" without having to resort to cheating? Pathetic~
While on the other hand, PVE creates incredibly unique experiences you simply can't get anywhere else. For example, raids. I raided in EQ2 for years, and really, no other game short of other MMORPGs have anything resembling difficult bosses that you spend weeks upon weeks learning and coordinating 24 people on. There's simply no alternative, so if you wish to experience that... you play a game that does that. And then if I were to have the choice between a game that takes that aspect of the game, runs with it completely and refining it to near perfection, or a game that attempts to shoehorn in PVP as well and cater to "everyone" while end up being mediocre in everything. Well, my choice is obvious.
Yep, while I've enjoyed PvP in the past, when I want PvE...that's all I want. IMHO, ONLY RvR works as an addition to PvE, normal PvP has to be so concerned with class balance that PvE does not survive well with it.
I can't be bothered to read through this entire topic, but yeah, easily. The entire concept of MMORPGs directly go against skilled PVP. Levels, gear, class balance, ability to outnumber your opponent, ability to attack your opponent while they're already fighting monsters... they do nothing to encourage personal skill. If you beat someone, is it really because you're better -- or is it because you entered the fight with an inherent advantage making it impossible for the other person to succeed against you? If it's the latter, is it the least bit enjoyable knowing that? On the other hand games like Quake, UT, Counter-Strike -- those are entirely pure skill, the person who plays better comes out on top, it's actually satisfying knowing that your victory is a result of that. I have trouble understanding anyone who gets a higher amount of enjoyment from PVP in MMOs than in games designed around perfectly balanced PVP at their core. Especially considering one you end up paying a one time fee for life, the other you continuously pay $15 a month for. Are you simply unskilled, and as such downright awful at games that take a real amount of skill, but want to still experience "winning" without having to resort to cheating? Pathetic~ While on the other hand, PVE creates incredibly unique experiences you simply can't get anywhere else. For example, raids. I raided in EQ2 for years, and really, no other game short of other MMORPGs have anything resembling difficult bosses that you spend weeks upon weeks learning and coordinating 24 people on. There's simply no alternative, so if you wish to experience that... you play a game that does that. And then if I were to have the choice between a game that takes that aspect of the game, runs with it completely and refining it to near perfection, or a game that attempts to shoehorn in PVP as well and cater to "everyone" while end up being mediocre in everything. Well, my choice is obvious.
Because there is no cheating in the games you mentioned? ya..
Also find me a game with the depth of an MMO in the types of games you mentioned, and I'm in...
Not any more. At one time I would have, but PvE content gets dull real fast, and without the dynamic aspect of PvP I just don't think it would interest me for long.
I hate PvP, personally. I can't stand the PvP community (in general).
If it's a game that promotes team work, like DAoC was, then I'm cool with that. I had a lot of fun in that game (even though the community seems to have taken a nose dive now).
There's just this group of players that seem like they had a little too much of an illegal drug called meth pushed into their brains.
Comments
not true I found the PVE in DDO both challenging and fun......gotta slow down and pay attention
I played DDO for about 2 months and just couldnt get into it. Since it eventually went F2P I assume the majority of players didnt enjoy it either. I'm not a fan of instancing nor small scale PvE which is all DDO had when I played it. If they had some open world dungeons and 40-60 man raids that were challenging like the old EQ raids then I might consider it fun.
Lets be honest here. most of the games that you see with PVP in, it mostly geared towards end content. That not to say there none any eariler, but most game set a truely low end level. Kudos to games like WOW, who do continously up the level rate, and give newer stuff to do. However it still remains, half the PVP that is in games is there cos you hit the end level barrier and really, what else is there to do? (normally I go back and do achievements that I havent done)
You could start a new char but let face it, sometimes going through the same old levels can be less appealing, and for some of the things you want to do, game mechanics sometimes make it hard, or maybe even the time you play. Wanted a particular item that was part of a group quest and in the end had to just give up cos you just couldnt get that group together? Yeah sometimes your lucky and can get a group together or even people in your guild to help.
Anarchy online by funcom, had a great approach. yeah it had pvp. but it had something like 200 odd levels that you could do just doing PVE stuff (and believe me, it does take a damn long time). To those who argue that just too long to level up to end level I say, Why? Why do you need to get to end level that quick? To look like a peacock? To proudly strut your stuff in the main town? Personally I loved that long levelling cos it took so damn long to level one char, that quite frankly I forgotten most of the starter stuff.
Would I play an all PVE game? Yeah sure I probably would. But would I always stay? That Im not too sure on. There are days when I do feel the need, when I had a bad day, to find someone and pound their char into the ground. When I do feel a flush of achievement when I beaten someone of equal level and gearage.
But then, I do love those days, when I managed to help out my guild mates in their missions, gathered stuff for the guild that will help others in the guild. Do crafting and help out a player who would like some stuff, but cos he is a causual player, He cant possibly get those stuff, unless he lucky and gets it one of the rare times.
In short, there is always gonna be a need for pure PVP mmo, PVE-PVP mmo, and Im just shocked really, that there isnt a noteworthy Pure PVE mmo out there. Final Fantasy has been mentioned, but I remember my old console days with Final Fantasy too fondly, that I just probably wouldnt find it as appealing as a MMO. but that just me.
Yes. Happily.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Considering my favorite MMO and the one I enjoyed the most was FFXI and it was 99% PvE? Yes I would.
My belief is this, MMORPGs are for PvE content. If you want pvp go play a fps or something.
To have good PVP ya need to get cheaters, botters, and hackers out.
A good PVE game can create a big variety of ineresting and diffcult scenarious to conquer,
where many mmorpg pvp games just turn into a zerg fest, high lvl ganks low lvl , end gear ganks casual gear.
So i would totaly play full PVE.
____________________
It`s alright
AC2,AO,D&L,Lotro,VsoH,SWG,Uo,HGL,Drunners,CoH,GW,Potbs,PWI
Eq2,Dofus,WoW,WWIIO,Ryzom,Planetside,EvE,TR,DDO,RFonline,FOM,VC,..etc blabla
also hobbies....staring at loadingbars
For all intent and purposes, LOTRO is a pure pve game.
The pvp portion is completely separate and has nothing to do with the rest of the game. I would also add vanguard to that mix as well even with its issues.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes!
Well, Doac and War were both made by the same company, Mythic. So they aren't certainly aren't "very" different types of Pvp games as you claim.
Moreover, Realm vs Realm pvp (RvR) is still... say it... PvP. It's done on a larger scale at times but not always, and eventually will probably end up in a giant zerg. There is more small man group action in War than large scale Realm vs Realm action.
So in the end, its still all player vs player (PvP) because its players killing other players.. no matter how many. Instead of small team ganking like in other games, you have zerg ganking. No difference.
Your position that they are "very different" types of games doesn't hold all that much water.It's like saying a Whopper with bacon and a Double Cheeseburger with extra pickles are two "very" different burgers. There are differences, but the end result is they both are burgers although one doesnt come with tomatoes and lettuce.
As to the majority, I don't think I said the majority are this way or that way. I think if you read carefully, I pretty much state what type of PvP player that is I described. I did not say that's the majority, however, that is the majority of ones I have seen acting that way. I think enough people have seen hardcore PvPers to understand what the underlying attitude of them in game is. I sure hope this isn't a case where someone tried on a shoe and it fit nicely.
Most pvpers log in, kill someone for an hour or two and log. That is not the people I am speaking of, and I'm pretty sure you knew that unless you were skimming and scanning my text.
"TO MICHAEL!"
1. I made no claims about anything other than the players I see. That may only work out to 1% of pver's or even less. I am not here speaking about the majority of pvpers; just the majority of hardcore pvpers I have seen. Capice?
2. I spoke nothing about "all MMOs".
I won't go any further with rebuttals until we get this part straight because you've started your post off on the wrong foot with a faulty premise here.
You have either:
A. Misread what I wrote and then had your whole opinion based on that misreading.
B. Read correctly what I wrote, and still claimed that I was exaggeration when you put in your own variables I said nothing about initally ("all MMOs)
C. Got offended somehow and then went on the defensive.
p.s. Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people.
But really quick to address a quick point as a side; in a PvP game, goldbuying is a gamekiller. Why? I hope you don't really need me to explain to you why it's an issue in that game and not PvE.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Gold-buying in any type of game can have negative impacts on the economy, even PvE.
I won't go any further with rebuttals until we get this part straight because you've started your post off on the wrong foot with a faulty premise here.
You have either:
A. Misread what I wrote and then had your whole opinion based on that misreading.
p.s. Goldbuying in a PvE game isn't an issue, friend. If another PvEer buys gold, that does nothing to affect my ACTUAL gameplay. Nor does it inhibit what I personally am able to do as I am fighting mobs; not people.
But really quick to address a quick point as a side; in a PvP game, goldbuying is a gamekiller. Why? I hope you don't really need me to explain to you why it's an issue in that game and not PvE.
You are correct, I did misread what you wrote. I do find it funny that you added Option B. That I misread and "still posted on an inaccurate rebuttal based on that misreading, knowingly. That to me screams of cynicism on your part, which is why I can see you have the attitude towards pvp'rs that you do. If you didn't possess any cynicism you wouldn't even have thought to put that down as an option. Just a thought. And yea, of course I get defensive, because I love pvp and at the same time, I don't corpse camp, don't trash talk, love helping people out in pvp and pve whenever I have the time. I love playing support characters that round out a group, but every anti-pvp'r in the world exaggerates one segment of the pvp population as to being the norm.
Also, goldbuying being an issue that affects your gameplay wasn't the point. The point was, pve'rs and pvp'rs alike buy gold. There are cheaters in both areas.
Goldbuying in a game is actually not a game killer in a pvp game. People could buy gold and PL in DaoC on the open market, didn't affect me. All goldbuying does is drive up prices of items making me work longer to get them. Sure it sucks and I don't like it, but it's not going to actually change the gameplay or my ability to compete. (Unless you're talking about timed spawns on bosses with lockout timers -which is a horrible and stupid game mechanic that should never exist)
I would if it was done correctly.
No problem for me. I dislike PvP, and as mentioned by a few people, PvP seems to encourage drama and quarrels within the community, due to the very nature of the PvP (fighting each other, ganking, etc.)
To me, an MMO is about teamwork. I played EQ2 and while there is PVP I just have no use for it.
Sure I will if the game has strong PVE elements. No PVP is an strong PVE MMO isn't a problem as I can just treat the PVP part as just a minigame I don't play. Do you know how many MMO players also play single player RPG and FPS? Those people can certainly live without PVP in the MMO they play.
Well, Doac and War were both made by the same company, Mythic. So they aren't certainly aren't "very" different types of Pvp games as you claim.
I think its safe to say they are very different the ones you were describing, where people gank noobs, cheat, and hang around buying gold all day in what you may be describing as an indie company game, with full open PvP.
Moreover, Realm vs Realm pvp (RvR) is still... say it... PvP. It's done on a larger scale at times but not always, and eventually will probably end up in a giant zerg. There is more small man group action in War than large scale Realm vs Realm action.
Yes, it is PvP, i thought thats what we were talking about here.
So which is it? Probably a zerg or small scale? I still play, and i find plenty of both, do zergs happen? Yes, but trying to beat the odds in a defensive position can be enjoyable. Does it always work? Nope. I wasn't saying either of the games were perfect, once again, I was disputing your view of PvPers in general.
So in the end, its still all player vs player (PvP) because its players killing other players.. no matter how many. Instead of small team ganking like in other games, you have zerg ganking. No difference.
Your position that they are "very different" types of games doesn't hold all that much water.It's like saying a Whopper with bacon and a Double Cheeseburger with extra pickles are two "very" different burgers. There are differences, but the end result is they both are burgers although one doesnt come with tomatoes and lettuce.
See my first statment
As to the majority, I don't think I said the majority are this way or that way. I think if you read carefully, I pretty much state what type of PvP player that is I described. I did not say that's the majority, however, that is the majority of ones I have seen acting that way. I think enough people have seen hardcore PvPers to understand what the underlying attitude of them in game is. I sure hope this isn't a case where someone tried on a shoe and it fit nicely.
You said:
"The majority of people I see claiming to be "good" at pvp are usually spending ways to find out how they can get the easy kills or game exploits on people"
So from your pov, the majority of those good at PvP exploit, cheat, and just get easy kills? Excellent..
Most pvpers log in, kill someone for an hour or two and log.
That is not the people I am speaking of, and I'm pretty sure you knew that unless you were skimming and scanning my text.
Ahh, so if they are mediocre at PvP, they can't possibly be cheating? Is that it? But Lord knows, if they beat you... well...
I wasn't skimming, I read it, and felt you basically generalized "most" good PvPers as exploiters, cheaters, noob killers, and gold buyers.. I don't think i was that far off.
As I said, I'm not saying any game is perfect, PvP, PvE or some mix of both... I enjoy PvP, you like PvE, i have no problem with that.
But your generalization of PvPers is pretty typical.. I really enjoy those who would question the maturity level of "all" PvPers, all the while refering to them with words a 13 year old would say....
Exactly Marcus,
You said what I was trying to much more precisely.
I can't be bothered to read through this entire topic, but yeah, easily. The entire concept of MMORPGs directly go against skilled PVP. Levels, gear, class balance, ability to outnumber your opponent, ability to attack your opponent while they're already fighting monsters... they do nothing to encourage personal skill. If you beat someone, is it really because you're better -- or is it because you entered the fight with an inherent advantage making it impossible for the other person to succeed against you? If it's the latter, is it the least bit enjoyable knowing that? On the other hand games like Quake, UT, Counter-Strike -- those are entirely pure skill, the person who plays better comes out on top, it's actually satisfying knowing that your victory is a result of that.
I have trouble understanding anyone who gets a higher amount of enjoyment from PVP in MMOs than in games designed around perfectly balanced PVP at their core. Especially considering one you end up paying a one time fee for life, the other you continuously pay $15 a month for. Are you simply unskilled, and as such downright awful at games that take a real amount of skill, but want to still experience "winning" without having to resort to cheating? Pathetic~
While on the other hand, PVE creates incredibly unique experiences you simply can't get anywhere else. For example, raids. I raided in EQ2 for years, and really, no other game short of other MMORPGs have anything resembling difficult bosses that you spend weeks upon weeks learning and coordinating 24 people on. There's simply no alternative, so if you wish to experience that... you play a game that does that. And then if I were to have the choice between a game that takes that aspect of the game, runs with it completely and refining it to near perfection, or a game that attempts to shoehorn in PVP as well and cater to "everyone" while end up being mediocre in everything. Well, my choice is obvious.
Yep, while I've enjoyed PvP in the past, when I want PvE...that's all I want. IMHO, ONLY RvR works as an addition to PvE, normal PvP has to be so concerned with class balance that PvE does not survive well with it.
Because there is no cheating in the games you mentioned? ya..
Also find me a game with the depth of an MMO in the types of games you mentioned, and I'm in...
NPC's are nowhere near as challenging as playing someone that is unpredictable and knows what they're doing.
Getting too old for this $&17!
Not any more. At one time I would have, but PvE content gets dull real fast, and without the dynamic aspect of PvP I just don't think it would interest me for long.
I hate PvP, personally. I can't stand the PvP community (in general).
If it's a game that promotes team work, like DAoC was, then I'm cool with that. I had a lot of fun in that game (even though the community seems to have taken a nose dive now).
There's just this group of players that seem like they had a little too much of an illegal drug called meth pushed into their brains.
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Role Playing and what happened to it?
Generation P