Lol. Honestly, I quit a week after this system was released. It destroyed what little community the game had left. Not even to mention the fact that you can't ever finish a dungeon, due to the lack of punishment or reprucussions (such as being called out by that person later, or perhaps just running across that player later, may sound silly, but it's what drives a lot of people to be polite). Simply put, people leave, left and right, nonstop. If ever you finish a dungeon, you have probably went through at least 15 people to do so.
I have never had any problems of this kind and as far as I know no one in my guild has either. Maybe people leaving the groups you are in constantly says more about you than the game. Just saying :-P
Lol. Honestly, I quit a week after this system was released. It destroyed what little community the game had left. Not even to mention the fact that you can't ever finish a dungeon, due to the lack of punishment or reprucussions (such as being called out by that person later, or perhaps just running across that player later, may sound silly, but it's what drives a lot of people to be polite). Simply put, people leave, left and right, nonstop. If ever you finish a dungeon, you have probably went through at least 15 people to do so.
I have never had any problems of this kind and as far as I know no one in my guild has either. Maybe people leaving the groups you are in constantly says more about you than the game. Just saying :-P
Pretty sure hes taalking about a few select dungeon's that ppl think are to hard and they bail on them....
OCC and Old Kingdom come to mind I remember getting those and ppl drop left and right.
Occ is not so bad now after they made it too easy imo.
So basically you people just want a single city to idle at, and then different dungeon maps you can instantly port to without travel, talking to other people, or risk in getting to the dungeon? If that doesn't kill the whole idea of a MMORPG then I dont know what does. Its so sad how the kids these days want everything and they want it NOW. God forbid they have to travel through a dangerous, dark forest to get to the dungeon. Its like when EQ expansion came out with the Plane of Knowledge and insta-ports to everywhere. Talk about immersion taking a dagger to the throat. These games do NOTHING to make you feel like you're actually in a living, breathing world any more. Instead, they are all about instantly porting you to the dungeon of your choice, totally making the rest of the game world obsolete. I remember it being RISKY to go to certain dungeons. Having to have a good group of people just to get to it. Making it seem exciting that you actually made it there alive, you know, like it would happen if you really had to get to a dangerous place. So sad...
I think you missed the point of the dungeon finder, instead of waiting and spamming LFG or trade for 30min to an hour you can queue for a dungeon and it puts a group together for you cross realms saving massive amounts of time. You prefer that people stand around spamming the bejesus out of chat channels instead of being able to actually play the game. Because of the nature of gear based progression and the best gear being in dungeons oddly enough thats where people would like to sepnd their in game time. I like exploring the world as i am leveling up but when end game content is instances then i would rather have a feature like the dungeon finder so i do not waste hours of time spamming for a group.
What's good about that actually? Isn't that exactly what you get in games like Guild Wars, DDO, etc which has no persisent world just instanced scripted dungeons? Why do you actually need a world if all you do is sit at auction and trainer and doing instances all day long with random people?
Easy answer to your WHY question,
If you NEED a persistant world, WoW has one. No one forces you to push the lfd button. Now, if you can't control yourself from pushing the button, that's not a problem with WoW's features, it is a problem with your behavior.
The people who sit at the auction house and trainers doing instances all day log with random people are doing the same thing they did before, the mechanic just eliminated down time. Those people are doing more of what they were doing before.
Those with friends and in guilds are still grouping with their friends and guild as they did before, the mechanic just helped us to fill holes in our group - eliminating our downtime.
It never was a pleasurable experience to be grouped with 4 of my friends and have to wait for an hour and a half to find a random healer or tank and then have 20 min of travel time to get set up. That didn't immerse me one bit. Fighting in dungeons on demand, now that's a feature.
Oh, and although I use the feature, I still do faction quests, I still do daily crafting quests, I still experience the persistant world on a daily basis.
If you find yourself sitting at the AH all day just repeatedly pressing the random dungeon finder button, and you don't enjoy it, that is not a problem with the game, it is a problem with your behavior.
Did this mechanic delete all of your friends so you can't play with them? Did this feature delete your guild so you can't group with them? Had you NEVER grouped with a random person before this feature? Did this feature turn your friends and guildies into random people? Why are you not able to group with your friends and guildmates?
But if you want to blame WoW for your decision to push a button, I suggest you take more control over your life.
I think it was never implemented before because most development of MMOs goes toward content. Blizzard has been improving its UI for quite some time, implementing ideas picked up from mods (Equiper, Quest Helper, CT Raid). Sometimes it fails (In Game Voice Chat). But most of the time it's welcomed.
I think Dungeon Finder should require player to first get to the Instance entrance before being eligible. However, knowing how most of the world has been abandoned for 5 years, I cant blame some players from ignoring it. Cataclysm will fix it though
So basically you people just want a single city to idle at, and then different dungeon maps you can instantly port to without travel, talking to other people, or risk in getting to the dungeon? If that doesn't kill the whole idea of a MMORPG then I dont know what does. Its so sad how the kids these days want everything and they want it NOW. God forbid they have to travel through a dangerous, dark forest to get to the dungeon. Its like when EQ expansion came out with the Plane of Knowledge and insta-ports to everywhere. Talk about immersion taking a dagger to the throat. These games do NOTHING to make you feel like you're actually in a living, breathing world any more. Instead, they are all about instantly porting you to the dungeon of your choice, totally making the rest of the game world obsolete. I remember it being RISKY to go to certain dungeons. Having to have a good group of people just to get to it. Making it seem exciting that you actually made it there alive, you know, like it would happen if you really had to get to a dangerous place. So sad...
Yes, it's just horrible that someone with a job and a family would want to just hook up with their friends, port to a dungeon and kick ass for an hour or two before going to bed.
Traveling for hours on end to get to the actual action is great if you're about 14 years old and have no job, responsibility or social life. It's a mind numbing time sink for anyone over the age of 25 who has a wife, kid, job, mortgage, etc.
Or am I over-reaching myself? Are you really trying to say that we should all just honor the velvet ropes you've single-handedly placed around the genre? Those without 20+ hours to spare a week need not apply?
I believe some other people have already told you what you can do with that line of reasoning.
You young'uns probably won't understand this, but there was a time when the calendar said "tuesday". Man tuesday was great. This whole passage of time thing you noobs are into ruins *everything*. People were four inches taller back on tuesday. Women had bigger boobs too. Oatmeal tasted like fruit loops with doughnut sauce. Now it's all this friday crap. Next thing you know it'll be sunday (if you don't believe me, just you *wait*) and then where will we be?
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Yes, it's just horrible that someone with a job and a family would want to just hook up with their friends, port to a dungeon and kick ass for an hour or two before going to bed.
Traveling for hours on end to get to the actual action is great if you're about 14 years old and have no job, responsibility or social life. It's a mind numbing time sink for anyone over the age of 25 who has a wife, kid, job, mortgage, etc.
Or am I over-reaching myself? Are you really trying to say that we should all just honor the velvet ropes you've single-handedly placed around the genre? Those without 20+ hours to spare a week need not apply?
I believe some other people have already told you what you can do with that line of reasoning.
No one is saying that SOME MMO's can't cater to the casual player. IMO, I think many like myself who actually like to be in an open world that allows you to escape from the drudges of everyday life (Yes, that includes having a job, 13 yr. old daughter myself, etc.), meet new people to befriend (Although not as easy with the mention RL obligations, but still doable), meaningful questing (Meaning interesting story lines and goals), etc are just frustrated because....well....
I'm not speaking for everyone, only myself (although I am sure there are others that feel the same)... but if I am going to pay roughly $50 initially for a game, and then $15 a month on top of that to play it, then dammit, make it meaningful and challenging. Sure, it is a bit frustrating when you die a few times to something, or a given situation, but at the same time, it allows you to think of ways to turn the outcome around, new tactics, etc. Once you do that, at least to me, it gives a MUCH bigger sense of accomplishment than simply queuing up for a dungeon in 5 minutes with people I don't know, or barely know, nor their play styles, just to blow through a dungeon in an hour or less to get that next shiny item and that is the extent of it. Even death penalties are gone, making rushing into a fight NOT a big deal because if you die, eh, no matter, you just respawn at a safe point and may have to pay an insignificant repair cost...if even that. Again, to me, sure, dying in a game with a death penalty at times can also be frustrating, but at the same time, can make it exciting because you are aware of the consequences of just rushing in without a plan of attack. God forbid you have to THINK of tactics ahead of time, and not just on the run back from a safe point to kamakazi again.
I have found recently that this is why I can't stay interested in most of these newer MMO's for longer than a couple months. All they have become is quick hit, instance heavy, glorified console games where your only goal is to get shiny new items...NOT as much new friends to adventure with, NOT for any real meaningful group teamwork. The only thing that has really kept me in them for those couple of months really is exploring the terrain and admiring the world's sites the dev's created. But I notice that even doing that, you see very few other people in them. Even in a huge game like WoW and with it's gigantic player base the world is a ghost town.
I am not saying some features of WoW aren't good, it has some elements I like. But it also did away with elements that made MMO's what they were.... open world games with a social network and the possibility to have thriving, working economies, as well as having challenge. Where is that now in most games? Most hand hold you to the next area, give you mini maps with GPS, OP'ed characters that can plow through mobs with ease (See AoC), etc, etc. Where is the challenge? What makes that fun?
I just unsubscribed to the MMO I was playing because of these reasons, as well as I realized that with the way these newer so-called MMO's were designed, I can get the same type of gameplay out of a console game for a flat fee of roughly $50-$60. Why pay $15 a month on top of that. Especially when you can blow through the content in a month or so.
Which is something else that boggles my mind. You would think a company releasing an MMO would WANT to make the game challenging and long so they can keep getting that $15 a month from their intended consumer target, but nay..... today's gamer is mainly (Not all, but a good amount) about "me, me, me, now, now, now", so companies bend to the will of the masses for high subscription numbers and the love of money solely, therefor, IMO, crippling themselves and the genre as a whole. At least if they lose a ton of subs due to the release of buggy crap, they still got a good chunk of change out of it right?
They rush content because the game is so easy, as I said above, players blow through it WAY faster than older MMO's, so these companies have to rush out new content to try and keep up...in turn, releasing unfinished and buggy garbage. Players complain about that, but still continue to play anyways. So what is stopping a company from continuing this trend if they still get paid?
Again, I am not saying that there shouldn't be MMO's that cater to casual players...everyone should get to play a game that fits their play style and time windows to play them... but sadly it seems EVERY game is going this route, fading out the uniqueness of the genre all together. Can ONE company man up and make a game that has challenge again? An open world that is alive and actually explored? Unique quests that aren't cookie cutters of each other with different quest rewards? Meaningful social elements, crafting that compliments the players and game economy? But with some elements that don't detract from those mentioned things that ARE from games like WoW like an easy to use UI and a LFG system that still makes you have to travel through dangerous areas to get to that group dungeon/area? PLEASE? Just one?
What's good about that actually? Isn't that exactly what you get in games like Guild Wars, DDO, etc which has no persisent world just instanced scripted dungeons? Why do you actually need a world if all you do is sit at auction and trainer and doing instances all day long with random people?
Exactly what I was going to say, well mostly. It works great for a game like Guild Wars and WoW, but a game like Fallen Earth, EVE or Darkfall would be ruined by it. The reason? The former relies on advancement in lobby-based arena play anyways, while the latter is all about gain/loss in world PvP. I guess the latter games could do fine as long as any arena-play does not give incentives beyond the quick-access itself, because who is going to actually go hunt someone with that kind of convenience?
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Personally I think its a very bad idea, WoW is going the opposite direction that I want in a MMO, it has been since BC. But apparently people like it and thats cool, I just hope every game won't follow. I don't mind long travel times, having to message people, because I'm not in a race to max level.
I take my time enjoy the scenery and enjoy knowing my way around in the game world. I don't mind teleportation as long as its some sort of a spell and you have to have been to the place before you can be teleported there. FFXI had it and it wasn't an easy feat to get all that stuff.
A new player could basically just do nothing but dungeons and never see the game world past Orgammir save for the dungeons. If that's what they want to do more power to them, but that isn't why I play MMO's. I just hope some games realize that that isn't what everyone wants, just because blizz does something doesn't mean you have too as well.
Personally i play MMO's for the experience, persistence, the world, and the social aspsects. When I want fun repetitive mind numbing play i get on an FPS, when i want an experience i get online. I don't play just so i can mash my 1 through 10 keys at the right time to get better loot so that my key mashing becomes even more effective.
In my experience in these random formed groups people are less likely to talk or be social, and more likely to be bad, even if it puts you in more group situations. I was perfectly happy with a system that simply let other people know you were interested in grouping. Sure the system streamlines you into being able to get in a dungeon that much faster to kill the x same mobs again faster for x new loot, but like i said, i don't play just to run through a dungeon, i play for the experience.
This system would replace any current group finding system in any game it's implemented in, and unless your in an active guild with people doing the same content with you or in a decent sized group of friends, your forced to use the system, and for me that's a game killer. I suppose it's good for the super casual WoWer, if that makes the game more fun for them then it works; however it's a game killer for me, but that's why I play EVE instead of WoW. I'd be very sad to see that feature implemented in every big MMO out there, and it was one of my least favorite parts of STO. Not every new and "progressive" feature needs to dumb down and simplify the game.. thats all WoW is, MMO's super simplified, and theres plenty of people out there like me who don't want that.
Well considering I work full time for IBM as a system admin I wouldn't say I have all the time in the world.
What I will say though, is that everybody wants everything NOW. Getting to a dungeon should be RISKY. Not insta-port. Sadly everything in WOW is trivialized to the point that its basically a fantasy based co-op FPS, where after the map everybody gets a reward. Pathetic.
I want having a specific item mean something. I want to know that not everybody can get it because it takes a great deal of effort. But then the people who would never be able to get it would cry and everything gets dumbed down. Think about it. Does everybody in the world drive a Ferarri? No. Should everyone? No.
Some people work harder then others, and we want that work to be rewarded. I dont mind if the content takes thirty minutes or an hour to do. As long as it takes teamwork and that the majority of horrible players fail on the tough content. These days MMOs are like when we used to be kids, and everybody got a medal no matter how much you sucked. People cant deal with the fact that they are horrible, and dont want to work on it to become better. Instead they would rather have everything given to them with minimal effort required, instead of making them learn and become a more efficient player.
The arguement is always "I play MMOs to have fun, not to work hard." And that mentality is decimating the community, the teamwork, the difficulty and complexity of yesterdays MMOs. Most people who try to play EVE quit within the first week because its "Too hard.", or they cant instantly hit a button and win so instead they just give up and find an easier game. If they had a fantasy version of EVE I'd play it in a heartbeat. But they dont. EQ and FFXI are way past their prime, so they are not an option. We need a REAL MMO.
Hell look at Star Trek Online. What a joke of a MMO. It doesnt even deserve the title. That is what our future is turning into. Unless people start demanding harder games that require more effort the MMO genre is screwed.
Sure, it gets you a group fast, especially if you're a healer or tank. But it kills the whole group experience, I made friends in 5mans, people I was looking to meet again. But now it's only a hack 'n slash get through and hopefully nobody talks kind of almost rude thing. Honestly, why do I need a MMO to do this? Wouldn't a console game be as good? Only probably would be to boring cause its so easy.
Also people use the 'need' button on loot a bit freely, classes that offspec as tank and come in as dps and roll need on an item that the tank then looses to them, or an offspec enh shaman taking an item away from a hunter and so forth. With the people being all from different servers all social inhibitons are removed and replaced by annonymity. Yet with the incentives placed on finding people that way it's very hard to create a group that consists of friends/guild members only.
I feel that Blizzard created another element that takes away from the community, which actually for me is the attractive thing in WoW.
Did this mechanic delete all of your friends so you can't play with them? Did this feature delete your guild so you can't group with them? Had you NEVER grouped with a random person before this feature? Did this feature turn your friends and guildies into random people? Why are you not able to group with your friends and guildmates?
I was mostly runnig them to meet new people, but not on a one time run through basis. I did it to get a feel who the people on this server were. And to make friends.
Leveling an alt and getting starter gears together was kind of fun cause nobody knew who you were. Now the whole point is gone, can't meet people and run again with them, trade info about mains and may be get a new friend perhaps even for the next raid. Also meet a jerk, other then that it is annoying not much to be done about it. Can't get him blacklisted anymore.
Also it is quite difficult to get a certain number of people together for an exact time. That's the biggest problem for most raiders. So probably all your friends will not be on or having time when I have time to run that 5 man. Sure with the new lfg tool I get the group full fast, but I don't really want to anymore, it's honestly no more fun. And if by chance the friends with the right classes are on some of them have run the instance already. So actually the tool does reduce chances to get a group without using it significantly and at the same time makes it very unattractive to be in a group that comes together that way. So it is NOT about not clicking a button. It is about a social aspect being diminished.
- Every MMORPG based on the same style should get the system asap on rails (Lotro, War, AoC, Aion, ...)
- Every MMORPG should include massive amounts of realm world content to serve as a counter weight (seasonal content, crafting, gathering, guild leveling, realm fights). Blizzard handled this rather well.
- It makes for a dramatic change in the leveling department: WOW was a solo game until Dec 2009 in the leveling department, now it is a group based game with an added solo play possibilty if you consider leveling and choices.
this tool - if implemented well with the above factors - beats down any previous "helping" grouping tool in any MMORPG before.
Why ? Because you can group up with your friends and guildmates in off hours and "fill in the blanks" as you please. No need here to introduce "henchmen" (like GW1 and SW wanted to do). Henchmen are 10 times worse and simply kill the MMO aspect.
It is a FILL UP tool, if you want to play solo ... well 4 places to fill. Play with friends: 1 or 2 places to fill.
YOU push the button or talk with your guild friendsand group up on the server: your choice.
You know these last weeks with the included seasonal content, more people than ever were running around in the "world" of Azeroth. You were send all over the continents to assemble tokens from Elders, collect hearts etc.
From meeting with elders in the enemy cities to searching for them in the oddest enemy controlled bases. Happy hunting time on a PvP server.
I see people here commenting on this "supplementary tool" that didn't even set foot in WOW for years now.
As a matter of fact: ... these days MORE people than ever group up on their servers, because there was the new weekly Raiding quest, the seasonal bosses, the new VOA bosses, the new mats to gather for all that new gear...
It's a win-win if all the 3 points are included for ANY game with the same techniques.
If you don't see this, no problem, I bet I am sure you are one of the guys who don't seem to understand the million subs question either.
The guy who opts just to do dungeons, well it is HIS choice but it is only a 10% limited playing option he is using. Stupid as he is./ I know some who don't even come out of ANY single side element of a particular game.
It is HIS problem for playing one sided, not mine.
I have the choice. Blizzard offers me that choice, while before Dec2009, I didn't have this particular extra choice and the guys in those other MMO's I've mentioned don't have that choice either.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
The dungeon-finder is just a fix to a basic problem that is common to lots of MMOs.
Leveling zones get empty over time as a majority of players plays at the levelcap (most recently added content). So the leveling zones are a) filled with real newcomers an b) people who yet level up another alt.
Communities and the companys have determined that the goal of an MMO should be an endless "optimization" of an in-game character (gear- and level-grind to improve the raw power, achievement-grind to show off?).
On one hand it's a good thing that through-the dungeon finder you are able to do the lower WoW-dungeons again with a level apropriate group. That was impossible before, as there was the bad habit to have some high level characters do all the work.
On the other hand, this just caters to players who want the "job" done as quickly as possible and as often as is required to get the gear/achievement you farm for. If you are completely new to the game, you can see the low level dungeon, but you may not like the speed the veterans rush through. On the bottom line, the random dungeon finder doesn't help newcomers if they want to explore the dungeon.
As it is now, for me it doesn't feel like a roleplaying game anymore (not because of this simple dungeon finder, but because of a long list of things that kill the immersion). I wonder why the companys' still cling to a CRPG ruleframe in some MMOs? Companys try to turn their games now into some kind of "social network" to keep players attached to the game.
A CRPG ruleframe and a "social network" are incompatible (e.g. "I want to play with my friends, but I chose the wrong class
at start. Now we can't play together because the dungeon/raid requires a diversity of classes").
The dungeon-finder is just a fix to a basic problem that is common to lots of MMOs.
Leveling zones get empty over time as a majority of players plays at the levelcap (most recently added content). So the leveling zones are a) filled with real newcomers an b) people who yet level up another alt. Communities and the companys have determined that the goal of an MMO should be an endless "optimization" of an in-game character (gear- and level-grind to improve the raw power, achievement-grind to show off?).
On one hand it's a good thing that through-the dungeon finder you are able to do the lower WoW-dungeons again with a level apropriate group. That was impossible before, as there was the bad habit to have some high level characters do all the work. On the other hand, this just caters to players who want the "job" done as quickly as possible and as often as is required to get the gear/achievement you farm for. If you are completely new to the game, you can see the low level dungeon, but you may not like the speed the veterans rush through. On the bottom line, the random dungeon finder doesn't help newcomers if they want to explore the dungeon.
Which other game can say that their older low leveling dungeons can be played 5 years after launch at their particular challenge level?
You know it , I know it: there was always one or two others in your guild who would like to level and do that dungeon, but person 4 and 5 were never there...
Now they are. A golden "fill up" tool IF used on a massive world and added as an extra.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
NOTE: There was a wall of text before this post that I know I should be replying to, but it's 2 in the morning here and I just got off work. So I'm going to break this shorter post down instead.....
.... That and I feel that this post basically says what the last post said in few words.... I'm not quite sure since I only skimmed the long post.
Originally posted by deadline527
Well considering I work full time for IBM as a system admin I wouldn't say I have all the time in the world. What I will say though, is that everybody wants everything NOW. Getting to a dungeon should be RISKY. Not insta-port. Sadly everything in WOW is trivialized to the point that its basically a fantasy based co-op FPS, where after the map everybody gets a reward. Pathetic. And...? I want having a specific item mean something. I want to know that not everybody can get it because it takes a great deal of effort. But then the people who would never be able to get it would cry and everything gets dumbed down. Think about it. Does everybody in the world drive a Ferarri? No. Should everyone? No. So let me get this straight. You want the game to stroke your ego? You want a game that demands unreasonable amounts of time, that only a small number of people are able or willing to commit to, so that you can feel better about yourself at the expense of others.... Or you want a game that makes you feel special because it's geared to your specific play style and is inherently hostile to everyone else? Interesting.... Some people work harder then others, and we want that work to be rewarded. Yes, and some people want their games to be fun and NOT WORK. I get enough work at work, thanx. I dont mind if the content takes thirty minutes or an hour to do. As long as it takes teamwork and thatthe majority of horrible players fail on the tough content. And it's so important to you that the unwashed plebs be kept in their place isn't it? Why? I play a lot of multiplayer games, Fighting games, FPS, RTS, Sports, etc. In all of those games, I never thought of the other players as anything more than the bot opponents that I competed against offline. Yeah, I can put a real face and name to many of the people that I competed with but, in the game, their progress was not what concerned me. When I play a game, team-based or otherwise, it is always my own progress and whether I'm doing better or worse than I did the last time that concerns me. What other people have or don't have does not define me. Wins and loses are temporary. In an indefinite race, such as an MMORPG or even real life, you are sometimes ahead or sometimes behind regardless of your decisions or skills. Maturity is accepting this and understanding that you are no better, or worse, than anyone else. These days MMOs are like when we used to be kids, and everybody got a medal no matter how much you sucked. Sorry, I grew up in the 80's and we didn't have any such philosophy back then. We still don't. The Jocks get their grades rewritten, the nerds get scholarships, the rich kids get a free ride and the rest of us work at Wal-Mart. Life isn't fair and it isn't a meritocracy. It never was and probably never will be. Take an honest look at gaming and you'll see that video games never were either. People cant deal with the fact that they are horrible, and dont want to work on it to become better. Instead they would rather have everything given to them with minimal effort required, instead of making them learn and become a more efficient player. Again, this is recreation and not a profession. If I'm not having fun, if I'm not being gratified then why should I waste my time. No one is going to pay you to play WoW.... Unless you're a gold farmer.... The arguement is always "I play MMOs to have fun, not to work hard." And that mentality is decimating the community, the teamwork, the difficulty and complexity of yesterdays MMOs. No Tourneyfags who take everything too seriously and insist that everyone else follows suite is what is ruining MMOs and video gaming in general. Most people who try to play EVE quit within the first week because its "Too hard.", or they cant instantly hit a button and win so instead they just give up and find an easier game. Or maybe they feel that if they wanted to learn a needlessly complex interfacet they could just learn Microsoft Access or play a commercial flight sim. There is something to be said about interface elegance. You can print all the rules to Go on a single page, but it's still the deepest game known to mankind. Complexity does not equal depth and an obscure user interface may be difficult, but in the wrong way for gaming. If they had a fantasy version of EVE I'd play it in a heartbeat. But they dont. EQ and FFXI are way past their prime, so they are not an option. We need a REAL MMO. Wait!!! Eve.... isn't a.... real MMO?.... Hell look at Star Trek Online. What a joke of a MMO. It doesnt even deserve the title. That is what our future is turning into. Unless people start demanding harder games that require more effort the MMO genre is screwed.
Well, Star Trek is just a horrible choice for an MMO to begin with. The background just doesn't lend itself to the conventions of the MMO genre. Now wargames on the other hand....
I recently resubbed to WoW, since I was bored with everything else, and I'm torn on whether or not I like the feature... Because of the cross server part I think its a fantastic tool for all the sub 80 dungeons as it can often be near impossible to find groups for those instances and people miss out on a lot of fun stuff if you never do them.
Now once you hit 80 I think the pros of the system start to work against itself. First, in my mind, being the high level of anonymity that it provides to people who are "shitheads", ninjas or whatever. Since its highly likely that you're the only person from your server you can do whatever you want during the run and don't have to worry about being called out on it afterward. If there is anything that makes shitheads more of a problem is even more anonymity.
Sub 80 I think its a fantastic tool. At 80 I'm much less of a fan.
What's good about that actually? Isn't that exactly what you get in games like Guild Wars, DDO, etc which has no persisent world just instanced scripted dungeons? Why do you actually need a world if all you do is sit at auction and trainer and doing instances all day long with random people?
Like most people, I'm in a guild. Even at prime time, I might only find one or two guildies who want to run heroic dungeons. With the Looking for Dungeon tool we guildies can queue together and get a dungeon in a matter of seconds.
Or if I can't sleep because of work or life, i can log on in the wee hours and group with Australians.
Making grouping easier is a good thing.
People say there is little talking during these LFD runs. I find there's about as much talking as there used to be. When you group from people from the PvP servers, they are a little more taciturn.
The LFD tool is something that all future AAA MMOs will have.
I'm on the fence about this feature but leaning toward the non liking of it.... on one hand, yes it makes all the lower level dungeons useful again, but on the other hand, it takes away the whole... talking to people thing... ya know.. the thing that's supposed to be what MMO's are about? There's also no friendliness in the groups you find for the most part. On more than one occasion, someone in the group would leave after a certain boss, or item for a quest etc. with no warning because hey.... they're never going to see these people again right? So the community gets flushed down the toilet as well.
Me personally.. regardless if anyone else talks or respond, I always say hello at the beginning of every instance I join, if anything, just to show that I'm one of the few friendly people you'll group with.
Comments
I have never had any problems of this kind and as far as I know no one in my guild has either. Maybe people leaving the groups you are in constantly says more about you than the game. Just saying :-P
I have never had any problems of this kind and as far as I know no one in my guild has either. Maybe people leaving the groups you are in constantly says more about you than the game. Just saying :-P
Pretty sure hes taalking about a few select dungeon's that ppl think are to hard and they bail on them....
OCC and Old Kingdom come to mind I remember getting those and ppl drop left and right.
Occ is not so bad now after they made it too easy imo.
I think you missed the point of the dungeon finder, instead of waiting and spamming LFG or trade for 30min to an hour you can queue for a dungeon and it puts a group together for you cross realms saving massive amounts of time. You prefer that people stand around spamming the bejesus out of chat channels instead of being able to actually play the game. Because of the nature of gear based progression and the best gear being in dungeons oddly enough thats where people would like to sepnd their in game time. I like exploring the world as i am leveling up but when end game content is instances then i would rather have a feature like the dungeon finder so i do not waste hours of time spamming for a group.
Easy answer to your WHY question,
If you NEED a persistant world, WoW has one. No one forces you to push the lfd button. Now, if you can't control yourself from pushing the button, that's not a problem with WoW's features, it is a problem with your behavior.
The people who sit at the auction house and trainers doing instances all day log with random people are doing the same thing they did before, the mechanic just eliminated down time. Those people are doing more of what they were doing before.
Those with friends and in guilds are still grouping with their friends and guild as they did before, the mechanic just helped us to fill holes in our group - eliminating our downtime.
It never was a pleasurable experience to be grouped with 4 of my friends and have to wait for an hour and a half to find a random healer or tank and then have 20 min of travel time to get set up. That didn't immerse me one bit. Fighting in dungeons on demand, now that's a feature.
Oh, and although I use the feature, I still do faction quests, I still do daily crafting quests, I still experience the persistant world on a daily basis.
If you find yourself sitting at the AH all day just repeatedly pressing the random dungeon finder button, and you don't enjoy it, that is not a problem with the game, it is a problem with your behavior.
Did this mechanic delete all of your friends so you can't play with them? Did this feature delete your guild so you can't group with them? Had you NEVER grouped with a random person before this feature? Did this feature turn your friends and guildies into random people? Why are you not able to group with your friends and guildmates?
But if you want to blame WoW for your decision to push a button, I suggest you take more control over your life.
I think it was never implemented before because most development of MMOs goes toward content. Blizzard has been improving its UI for quite some time, implementing ideas picked up from mods (Equiper, Quest Helper, CT Raid). Sometimes it fails (In Game Voice Chat). But most of the time it's welcomed.
I think Dungeon Finder should require player to first get to the Instance entrance before being eligible. However, knowing how most of the world has been abandoned for 5 years, I cant blame some players from ignoring it. Cataclysm will fix it though
You can still make your own group, and go in.
All this did was streamline the process of finding pugs to fill spots.
Its still an MMO, it just makes filling pug positions faster, easier, and much less of a hurdle that prevents you from participating in group content.
From everyone I talk to WoW I think we've found another standard MMO feature that WoW has spear headed.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Yes, it's just horrible that someone with a job and a family would want to just hook up with their friends, port to a dungeon and kick ass for an hour or two before going to bed.
Traveling for hours on end to get to the actual action is great if you're about 14 years old and have no job, responsibility or social life. It's a mind numbing time sink for anyone over the age of 25 who has a wife, kid, job, mortgage, etc.
Or am I over-reaching myself? Are you really trying to say that we should all just honor the velvet ropes you've single-handedly placed around the genre? Those without 20+ hours to spare a week need not apply?
I believe some other people have already told you what you can do with that line of reasoning.
You young'uns probably won't understand this, but there was a time when the calendar said "tuesday". Man tuesday was great. This whole passage of time thing you noobs are into ruins *everything*. People were four inches taller back on tuesday. Women had bigger boobs too. Oatmeal tasted like fruit loops with doughnut sauce. Now it's all this friday crap. Next thing you know it'll be sunday (if you don't believe me, just you *wait*) and then where will we be?
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
Yes, it's just horrible that someone with a job and a family would want to just hook up with their friends, port to a dungeon and kick ass for an hour or two before going to bed.
Traveling for hours on end to get to the actual action is great if you're about 14 years old and have no job, responsibility or social life. It's a mind numbing time sink for anyone over the age of 25 who has a wife, kid, job, mortgage, etc.
Or am I over-reaching myself? Are you really trying to say that we should all just honor the velvet ropes you've single-handedly placed around the genre? Those without 20+ hours to spare a week need not apply?
I believe some other people have already told you what you can do with that line of reasoning.
No one is saying that SOME MMO's can't cater to the casual player. IMO, I think many like myself who actually like to be in an open world that allows you to escape from the drudges of everyday life (Yes, that includes having a job, 13 yr. old daughter myself, etc.), meet new people to befriend (Although not as easy with the mention RL obligations, but still doable), meaningful questing (Meaning interesting story lines and goals), etc are just frustrated because....well....
I'm not speaking for everyone, only myself (although I am sure there are others that feel the same)... but if I am going to pay roughly $50 initially for a game, and then $15 a month on top of that to play it, then dammit, make it meaningful and challenging. Sure, it is a bit frustrating when you die a few times to something, or a given situation, but at the same time, it allows you to think of ways to turn the outcome around, new tactics, etc. Once you do that, at least to me, it gives a MUCH bigger sense of accomplishment than simply queuing up for a dungeon in 5 minutes with people I don't know, or barely know, nor their play styles, just to blow through a dungeon in an hour or less to get that next shiny item and that is the extent of it. Even death penalties are gone, making rushing into a fight NOT a big deal because if you die, eh, no matter, you just respawn at a safe point and may have to pay an insignificant repair cost...if even that. Again, to me, sure, dying in a game with a death penalty at times can also be frustrating, but at the same time, can make it exciting because you are aware of the consequences of just rushing in without a plan of attack. God forbid you have to THINK of tactics ahead of time, and not just on the run back from a safe point to kamakazi again.
I have found recently that this is why I can't stay interested in most of these newer MMO's for longer than a couple months. All they have become is quick hit, instance heavy, glorified console games where your only goal is to get shiny new items...NOT as much new friends to adventure with, NOT for any real meaningful group teamwork. The only thing that has really kept me in them for those couple of months really is exploring the terrain and admiring the world's sites the dev's created. But I notice that even doing that, you see very few other people in them. Even in a huge game like WoW and with it's gigantic player base the world is a ghost town.
I am not saying some features of WoW aren't good, it has some elements I like. But it also did away with elements that made MMO's what they were.... open world games with a social network and the possibility to have thriving, working economies, as well as having challenge. Where is that now in most games? Most hand hold you to the next area, give you mini maps with GPS, OP'ed characters that can plow through mobs with ease (See AoC), etc, etc. Where is the challenge? What makes that fun?
I just unsubscribed to the MMO I was playing because of these reasons, as well as I realized that with the way these newer so-called MMO's were designed, I can get the same type of gameplay out of a console game for a flat fee of roughly $50-$60. Why pay $15 a month on top of that. Especially when you can blow through the content in a month or so.
Which is something else that boggles my mind. You would think a company releasing an MMO would WANT to make the game challenging and long so they can keep getting that $15 a month from their intended consumer target, but nay..... today's gamer is mainly (Not all, but a good amount) about "me, me, me, now, now, now", so companies bend to the will of the masses for high subscription numbers and the love of money solely, therefor, IMO, crippling themselves and the genre as a whole. At least if they lose a ton of subs due to the release of buggy crap, they still got a good chunk of change out of it right?
They rush content because the game is so easy, as I said above, players blow through it WAY faster than older MMO's, so these companies have to rush out new content to try and keep up...in turn, releasing unfinished and buggy garbage. Players complain about that, but still continue to play anyways. So what is stopping a company from continuing this trend if they still get paid?
Again, I am not saying that there shouldn't be MMO's that cater to casual players...everyone should get to play a game that fits their play style and time windows to play them... but sadly it seems EVERY game is going this route, fading out the uniqueness of the genre all together. Can ONE company man up and make a game that has challenge again? An open world that is alive and actually explored? Unique quests that aren't cookie cutters of each other with different quest rewards? Meaningful social elements, crafting that compliments the players and game economy? But with some elements that don't detract from those mentioned things that ARE from games like WoW like an easy to use UI and a LFG system that still makes you have to travel through dangerous areas to get to that group dungeon/area? PLEASE? Just one?
At the above:
Oh ... GoodGod (almost correct name there).
Please inform thyself about the tool before preaching. Thou shall not exaggerate: these are games to be played you know.
It's not an excercice in life.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Exactly what I was going to say, well mostly. It works great for a game like Guild Wars and WoW, but a game like Fallen Earth, EVE or Darkfall would be ruined by it. The reason? The former relies on advancement in lobby-based arena play anyways, while the latter is all about gain/loss in world PvP. I guess the latter games could do fine as long as any arena-play does not give incentives beyond the quick-access itself, because who is going to actually go hunt someone with that kind of convenience?
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I think congratulations are in order to Thillian and deadline527 for a textbook example of a Straw Man Argument.
Well done.
Personally I think its a very bad idea, WoW is going the opposite direction that I want in a MMO, it has been since BC. But apparently people like it and thats cool, I just hope every game won't follow. I don't mind long travel times, having to message people, because I'm not in a race to max level.
I take my time enjoy the scenery and enjoy knowing my way around in the game world. I don't mind teleportation as long as its some sort of a spell and you have to have been to the place before you can be teleported there. FFXI had it and it wasn't an easy feat to get all that stuff.
A new player could basically just do nothing but dungeons and never see the game world past Orgammir save for the dungeons. If that's what they want to do more power to them, but that isn't why I play MMO's. I just hope some games realize that that isn't what everyone wants, just because blizz does something doesn't mean you have too as well.
Personally i play MMO's for the experience, persistence, the world, and the social aspsects. When I want fun repetitive mind numbing play i get on an FPS, when i want an experience i get online. I don't play just so i can mash my 1 through 10 keys at the right time to get better loot so that my key mashing becomes even more effective.
In my experience in these random formed groups people are less likely to talk or be social, and more likely to be bad, even if it puts you in more group situations. I was perfectly happy with a system that simply let other people know you were interested in grouping. Sure the system streamlines you into being able to get in a dungeon that much faster to kill the x same mobs again faster for x new loot, but like i said, i don't play just to run through a dungeon, i play for the experience.
This system would replace any current group finding system in any game it's implemented in, and unless your in an active guild with people doing the same content with you or in a decent sized group of friends, your forced to use the system, and for me that's a game killer. I suppose it's good for the super casual WoWer, if that makes the game more fun for them then it works; however it's a game killer for me, but that's why I play EVE instead of WoW. I'd be very sad to see that feature implemented in every big MMO out there, and it was one of my least favorite parts of STO. Not every new and "progressive" feature needs to dumb down and simplify the game.. thats all WoW is, MMO's super simplified, and theres plenty of people out there like me who don't want that.
Well considering I work full time for IBM as a system admin I wouldn't say I have all the time in the world.
What I will say though, is that everybody wants everything NOW. Getting to a dungeon should be RISKY. Not insta-port. Sadly everything in WOW is trivialized to the point that its basically a fantasy based co-op FPS, where after the map everybody gets a reward. Pathetic.
I want having a specific item mean something. I want to know that not everybody can get it because it takes a great deal of effort. But then the people who would never be able to get it would cry and everything gets dumbed down. Think about it. Does everybody in the world drive a Ferarri? No. Should everyone? No.
Some people work harder then others, and we want that work to be rewarded. I dont mind if the content takes thirty minutes or an hour to do. As long as it takes teamwork and that the majority of horrible players fail on the tough content. These days MMOs are like when we used to be kids, and everybody got a medal no matter how much you sucked. People cant deal with the fact that they are horrible, and dont want to work on it to become better. Instead they would rather have everything given to them with minimal effort required, instead of making them learn and become a more efficient player.
The arguement is always "I play MMOs to have fun, not to work hard." And that mentality is decimating the community, the teamwork, the difficulty and complexity of yesterdays MMOs. Most people who try to play EVE quit within the first week because its "Too hard.", or they cant instantly hit a button and win so instead they just give up and find an easier game. If they had a fantasy version of EVE I'd play it in a heartbeat. But they dont. EQ and FFXI are way past their prime, so they are not an option. We need a REAL MMO.
Hell look at Star Trek Online. What a joke of a MMO. It doesnt even deserve the title. That is what our future is turning into. Unless people start demanding harder games that require more effort the MMO genre is screwed.
I'm not too happy with the dungeon finder either.
Sure, it gets you a group fast, especially if you're a healer or tank. But it kills the whole group experience, I made friends in 5mans, people I was looking to meet again. But now it's only a hack 'n slash get through and hopefully nobody talks kind of almost rude thing. Honestly, why do I need a MMO to do this? Wouldn't a console game be as good? Only probably would be to boring cause its so easy.
Also people use the 'need' button on loot a bit freely, classes that offspec as tank and come in as dps and roll need on an item that the tank then looses to them, or an offspec enh shaman taking an item away from a hunter and so forth. With the people being all from different servers all social inhibitons are removed and replaced by annonymity. Yet with the incentives placed on finding people that way it's very hard to create a group that consists of friends/guild members only.
I feel that Blizzard created another element that takes away from the community, which actually for me is the attractive thing in WoW.
Well... 5mans aren't exactly difficult, cutting edge content.
I was mostly runnig them to meet new people, but not on a one time run through basis. I did it to get a feel who the people on this server were. And to make friends.
Leveling an alt and getting starter gears together was kind of fun cause nobody knew who you were. Now the whole point is gone, can't meet people and run again with them, trade info about mains and may be get a new friend perhaps even for the next raid. Also meet a jerk, other then that it is annoying not much to be done about it. Can't get him blacklisted anymore.
Also it is quite difficult to get a certain number of people together for an exact time. That's the biggest problem for most raiders. So probably all your friends will not be on or having time when I have time to run that 5 man. Sure with the new lfg tool I get the group full fast, but I don't really want to anymore, it's honestly no more fun. And if by chance the friends with the right classes are on some of them have run the instance already. So actually the tool does reduce chances to get a group without using it significantly and at the same time makes it very unattractive to be in a group that comes together that way. So it is NOT about not clicking a button. It is about a social aspect being diminished.
Coming from my previous points I've made:
- Every MMORPG based on the same style should get the system asap on rails (Lotro, War, AoC, Aion, ...)
- Every MMORPG should include massive amounts of realm world content to serve as a counter weight (seasonal content, crafting, gathering, guild leveling, realm fights). Blizzard handled this rather well.
- It makes for a dramatic change in the leveling department: WOW was a solo game until Dec 2009 in the leveling department, now it is a group based game with an added solo play possibilty if you consider leveling and choices.
this tool - if implemented well with the above factors - beats down any previous "helping" grouping tool in any MMORPG before.
Why ? Because you can group up with your friends and guildmates in off hours and "fill in the blanks" as you please. No need here to introduce "henchmen" (like GW1 and SW wanted to do). Henchmen are 10 times worse and simply kill the MMO aspect.
It is a FILL UP tool, if you want to play solo ... well 4 places to fill. Play with friends: 1 or 2 places to fill.
YOU push the button or talk with your guild friendsand group up on the server: your choice.
You know these last weeks with the included seasonal content, more people than ever were running around in the "world" of Azeroth. You were send all over the continents to assemble tokens from Elders, collect hearts etc.
From meeting with elders in the enemy cities to searching for them in the oddest enemy controlled bases. Happy hunting time on a PvP server.
I see people here commenting on this "supplementary tool" that didn't even set foot in WOW for years now.
As a matter of fact: ... these days MORE people than ever group up on their servers, because there was the new weekly Raiding quest, the seasonal bosses, the new VOA bosses, the new mats to gather for all that new gear...
It's a win-win if all the 3 points are included for ANY game with the same techniques.
If you don't see this, no problem, I bet I am sure you are one of the guys who don't seem to understand the million subs question either.
The guy who opts just to do dungeons, well it is HIS choice but it is only a 10% limited playing option he is using. Stupid as he is./ I know some who don't even come out of ANY single side element of a particular game.
It is HIS problem for playing one sided, not mine.
I have the choice. Blizzard offers me that choice, while before Dec2009, I didn't have this particular extra choice and the guys in those other MMO's I've mentioned don't have that choice either.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
The dungeon-finder is just a fix to a basic problem that is common to lots of MMOs.
On one hand it's a good thing that through-the dungeon finder you are able to do the lower WoW-dungeons again with a level apropriate group. That was impossible before, as there was the bad habit to have some high level characters do all the work.
On the other hand, this just caters to players who want the "job" done as quickly as possible and as often as is required to get the gear/achievement you farm for. If you are completely new to the game, you can see the low level dungeon, but you may not like the speed the veterans rush through. On the bottom line, the random dungeon finder doesn't help newcomers if they want to explore the dungeon.
As it is now, for me it doesn't feel like a roleplaying game anymore (not because of this simple dungeon finder, but because of a long list of things that kill the immersion). I wonder why the companys' still cling to a CRPG ruleframe in some MMOs? Companys try to turn their games now into some kind of "social network" to keep players attached to the game.
A CRPG ruleframe and a "social network" are incompatible (e.g. "I want to play with my friends, but I chose the wrong class
at start. Now we can't play together because the dungeon/raid requires a diversity of classes").
Which other game can say that their older low leveling dungeons can be played 5 years after launch at their particular challenge level?
You know it , I know it: there was always one or two others in your guild who would like to level and do that dungeon, but person 4 and 5 were never there...
Now they are. A golden "fill up" tool IF used on a massive world and added as an extra.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Well, Star Trek is just a horrible choice for an MMO to begin with. The background just doesn't lend itself to the conventions of the MMO genre. Now wargames on the other hand....
That's more like it....
I recently resubbed to WoW, since I was bored with everything else, and I'm torn on whether or not I like the feature... Because of the cross server part I think its a fantastic tool for all the sub 80 dungeons as it can often be near impossible to find groups for those instances and people miss out on a lot of fun stuff if you never do them.
Now once you hit 80 I think the pros of the system start to work against itself. First, in my mind, being the high level of anonymity that it provides to people who are "shitheads", ninjas or whatever. Since its highly likely that you're the only person from your server you can do whatever you want during the run and don't have to worry about being called out on it afterward. If there is anything that makes shitheads more of a problem is even more anonymity.
Sub 80 I think its a fantastic tool. At 80 I'm much less of a fan.
Like most people, I'm in a guild. Even at prime time, I might only find one or two guildies who want to run heroic dungeons. With the Looking for Dungeon tool we guildies can queue together and get a dungeon in a matter of seconds.
Or if I can't sleep because of work or life, i can log on in the wee hours and group with Australians.
Making grouping easier is a good thing.
People say there is little talking during these LFD runs. I find there's about as much talking as there used to be. When you group from people from the PvP servers, they are a little more taciturn.
The LFD tool is something that all future AAA MMOs will have.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I like the feature, but imo if things weren't so level-guided, then maybe 6 different servers linked up would not have been needed.
I'm on the fence about this feature but leaning toward the non liking of it.... on one hand, yes it makes all the lower level dungeons useful again, but on the other hand, it takes away the whole... talking to people thing... ya know.. the thing that's supposed to be what MMO's are about? There's also no friendliness in the groups you find for the most part. On more than one occasion, someone in the group would leave after a certain boss, or item for a quest etc. with no warning because hey.... they're never going to see these people again right? So the community gets flushed down the toilet as well.
Me personally.. regardless if anyone else talks or respond, I always say hello at the beginning of every instance I join, if anything, just to show that I'm one of the few friendly people you'll group with.