To me they are failing Because they are makeing Games and Not Worlds. A Game is fun for a little while. A world can Take years to fully Explore and Conquer.
This...we're leaving persistent worlds behind as we once had and they are making single player games you play with others online. Their are no virtual persistent worlds anymore and that is what is ruining this genre.
Im just glad some people agree with me :P
I think the reason for this is because persistent worlds may have history, but they usually don’t provide a strong story line with lots of lore. It’s to bad too, because I think your absolutely right.
That's actually not correct at all. UO has a very persistent world and one of the deepest story lines and lore in an MMO to date. Same with EVE Online. CCP actually began releasing it's lore way before EVE launched.
Companies need to cater to as much of the populas as possible, until they have server with different rulesets we will all be forced to play the EZMODE WOWafied crap we have now.
Have some server with a real death penalty!
Have some with said penalty plus corpse runs! (one server? ffs)
But no, we have games with multipal low population servers, such as EQ2.
EQ2 had shard runs and group xp penalty when a member died,they nerfed it! death dont mean shit anymore.
Different servers allows us to choose the playstyle we want.
why piss anyone offf? many good mature people left when shards left, now eq2 is so dumbed down the wow crowd are taking over, 1-9 chat is shockingly dumb/immature.
So let us play on a server where you have to be social and group again!
Where solo play is almost impossible (ALMOST)
If we find it too tough we don't quit your game, we just switch to another server!
A game with so many different server choices will in my opinion, cater to the masses, subs will go up.
I would be willing to pay more to play on a server with such ruleset as original EQ1 had.
Maybe you would not, so go play on another server?
Solo play leads to gread, anti social chat, when you have to work as a team you learn to behave! /laughs
Its more about the degree of success . Theres games that fail and games that achieve the kind of success which keeps them profitable but not on a par with Warcraft . A game does'nt need to have 12 million subs to be a success .
It's not the 12 million bar that hampers the success.
There is only one MMORPG that was designed as a ... videogame.
The other mmorpg's are designed on a franchize, or with fantastic potential ideas, or just 15 year old grinding techniques of letting the players ... pay for months to level.
But mmorpg's should be in the first place videogames and be fun.
Meaning unhampered, fast, tight, responsive controls of the little humanoids you play with. Add in too: reduction of downtime to obtain that fun.
You don't need to sit for 6 hours in front of your screen to search for "fun"; because fun ends rather quick that way.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Upwards of 100 posts here, and no-one has mentioned the name of a human being. It’s all IP, corporates and game names. Maybe that’s the key.
In the absence of a human celebrity, big enough to eclipse the names of the products and organisations behind them, the investors will control everything. So, quick to market, speedy ROI, anything else is a bonus.
I’d wager that more people recognise George Clooney than Warner, Paramount and Lionsgate put together. Create enough real human stars, and soon enough, one will push the market in the direction that real humans (as opposed to investors) want it to go.
Perhaps the games industry needs a Sundance moment.
Good Lord, it appears that I've posted in a forum.
Perhaps it's us that's at fault. Perhaps we have become immune to the addictivity that video games once dispensed. Look at the effects of a heroin user: after a while, the heroin stops taking effect, they need more and more of it to "get their fix". Can't the same logic apply to MMO's?
Our favourite MMO commercialised. Like your favourite rock band selling out to the pop industry to make more cash. With that, we lost the addictivity factor, the hardcore gameplay was extracted and have been sampling everything else that comes our way in a desperate attempt to cling on to what we once had. We don't get that same "kick" anymore.
You provide a poll but do not provide actual failing games? Failing how so, are they closing down or just didn't live up to your expectations? I don't understand this post, I think this post fails.
Coke comes out and people really like it even though it took awhile to catch on. A lot of people didn't expect just how popular it would be. Another company takes the risk and creates a new Cola. . now there are two colas. There are enough people that want it that both companies can survive and do well and people can chose the one they like the best.
part 2
Over a few years people come out with some other flavours. .people that are tired of Cola take a ride on Mountain Dew for a bit and then eventually head back to Cola while some stay.
Part 3
Eventually everybody and their dog wants to be a part of this. .they think they can make a better Cola. . but it is still Cola. . . . after realizing that getting people to switch over to their Cola is hard given the marketing and shelf space of the other products they decide to add a little crazy to their drink to make it stand out. . so cola with lime. . cola with cherry. Enough people try this out initially that it seems that it might be a success but then only people that really like cherry and lime stay. .
Part 4
Seeing that Cola is King people either try to emulate it or do something completely different. . so the shelves are full of bizzare drinks made by new companies or sad knock offs. . many made by some of the most original companies.
Look at candy. . hmm. . Mars bars are not selling so lets add nut sand release that with a big "new label". Wow we sold a lot. . people like new stuff! Unfortunately no one is buying the one with nuts now so lets release one with . . . um . .berries! Hey we made a lot of money.
Bottom line:
It has become hard to compete with the original. . which many are tired of but they just don't like the new stuff. They will buy a knock off with a twist. . but only for a bit until the "new extra fizzy" label wears off.
Cola has been done. Mountain Dew has been done. . .
The trick here is to not make pop. But then you are back to giant risk taking and a good chance of failure. . and people are making enough money off of their Cherry Cola.
Why do you think the latest crop of games is failing?
Games aren't failing. It's you. You've been there done that. The awe you experienced logging onto your first MMO will never happen again. Perhaps you've matured and games just don't affect you the way they did when you were 17. Perhaps using all your free time to play games has caused you to suffer burn out. You can get burned out on anything. Trust me, that 15 year old logging onto his MMO for the first time? MMOs are the bomb.
If thats the case, maybe they should stop making MMOs that we've already been to, and done?
How many times are companies going to make an MMO that a 15 year old will be impressed with, when theres another pretty large audience out there, besides them?
So, in which category does EVE fall under, STO or Aion?
Eve is not recent is it? (Read the title before you post)
I prefer to not pick a particular moment in time when there are few good releases and focus on the fact that there are great mmos out atm. Even if they were released a few years ago. People complain alot about the current state of mmos when there are brilliant ones out. So they dont like spaceships or whatever. If its not one thing, its another.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
So, in which category does EVE fall under, STO or Aion?
Eve is not recent is it? (Read the title before you post)
I prefer to not pick a particular moment in time when there are few good releases and focus on the fact that there are great mmos out atm. Even if they were released a few years ago.
Yes but the subject is specifically, why the LATEST crop of MMOs are failing, which implies that the oldest one are actually good
Learn how to read between the lines, you are off topic.
But if you really care about an answer, if EvE was new it would fall in neither of those categories.................that s why it is good.
I'll tell you why ALL MMOs are failing right now. It's because the developers don't listen to the players. They basically do whatever they want and force feed us their crap. I don't know about you all, but I don't take crap.
They aren't failing. If anything they are exploding in terms of number and type.
People are chasing shadows, trying to recreate a mythical UO/SWG/DAOC experience that never really happened, and any real game will never live up. They were just as bad before if not worse.
They aren't failing. If anything they are exploding in terms of number and type. People are chasing shadows, trying to recreate a mythical UO/SWG/DAOC experience that never really happened, and any real game will never live up. They were just as bad before if not worse.
Funny thing is, those Mythical games you mentioned, allowed the player to have an (some) effect on the world around him.
You don't really see that anymore. It seems a good portion of the games released today are focused mostly on your progression,..
To me they are failing Because they are makeing Games and Not Worlds. A Game is fun for a little while. A world can Take years to fully Explore and Conquer.
This...we're leaving persistent worlds behind as we once had and they are making single player games you play with others online. Their are no virtual persistent worlds anymore and that is what is ruining this genre.
Im just glad some people agree with me :P
I think the reason for this is because persistent worlds may have history, but they usually don’t provide a strong story line with lots of lore. It’s to bad too, because I think your absolutely right.
That's actually not correct at all. UO has a very persistent world and one of the deepest story lines and lore in an MMO to date. Same with EVE Online. CCP actually began releasing it's lore way before EVE launched.
No, that is EXACTLY correct. The title of the thread is "why do you think the LATEST crop of games is failing?" Neither UO nor EVE is part of "the latest crop" of games.
No one is saying that games do not EXIST that do it "right."
They aren't failing. If anything they are exploding in terms of number and type. People are chasing shadows, trying to recreate a mythical UO/SWG/DAOC experience that never really happened, and any real game will never live up. They were just as bad before if not worse.
That doesn't mean they're not failing or aren't destined to fail. Many people think developers are throwing darts at a dartboard to see what sticks.
What they're really doing is... you know at the market where you can buy Jif peanut butter or some generic brand? We've got about 35 generic brands of peanut butter on the shelf, and these companies wonder why only a few are selling.
Hardly any of them sit back and go, "Hey... how about some generic coffee instead of peanut butter?" Nope. They see the JIF brand (let's call that WoW) sells, so damn it, we're sticking with peanut butter!
But you're right that, by-and-large, since Dark Age of Camelot it's hard to name MMOs that had an effect on the population at large other than the one obvious one. EVE and FFXI are probably the closest... and that's not saying much.
No, that is EXACTLY correct. The title of the thread is "why do you think the LATEST crop of games is failing?" Neither UO nor EVE is part of "the latest crop" of games.
No one is saying that games do not EXIST that do it "right."
Compared in yearly revenu ... all mmorpg's failed compared to WOW.
Old or new. Sandbox or liniair. Free to play or subs based.
1.2 billion dollars per year and the second place goes to Aion with 43% of 160 million (that's 5.8% of WOW's part) worldwide.
Third place is EVE at 51 million dollars.
Those are the hard cash figures.
Winner takes it all apparently in MMO land.
Best gameplay wins.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
To me they are failing Because they are makeing Games and Not Worlds. A Game is fun for a little while. A world can Take years to fully Explore and Conquer.
This resonates with me. I hear....the ring....of truth.
I missed that post, it is a good point though. I think it goes with what I was saying more generically about them not setting out to build an idea so much as to build a business that sells an idea.
Yes. This.
To make a great MMO, in my opinion, you FIRST must have a great world in which the great game play and story can unfold. If the world is not compelling to me on some level....I won't want to spend my time there, regardless of the game play. I have to "believe" that the game world is a big unexplored land of waiting adventure for me. If you can't deliver on that sense of awe....I have issues before I get very far out of the gate. If there is no sense of impending doom and adventure in a vast new world....I have no reason to continue exploring and forging "my way" in the new land.
MMOs, in my opinion of course, are very much about the suspension of disbelief. Make me believe in your world. That, for me, is the first order of "business" for a game.
Comments
I don't find much failure with the current crop, I just don't find them to be suited to my tastes...?
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
yup
Godspeed my fellow gamer
This...we're leaving persistent worlds behind as we once had and they are making single player games you play with others online. Their are no virtual persistent worlds anymore and that is what is ruining this genre.
Im just glad some people agree with me :P
I think the reason for this is because persistent worlds may have history, but they usually don’t provide a strong story line with lots of lore. It’s to bad too, because I think your absolutely right.
That's actually not correct at all. UO has a very persistent world and one of the deepest story lines and lore in an MMO to date. Same with EVE Online. CCP actually began releasing it's lore way before EVE launched.
Too high production costs these days, most companies cant afford to finish their games.
Companies need to cater to as much of the populas as possible, until they have server with different rulesets we will all be forced to play the EZMODE WOWafied crap we have now.
Have some server with a real death penalty!
Have some with said penalty plus corpse runs! (one server? ffs)
But no, we have games with multipal low population servers, such as EQ2.
EQ2 had shard runs and group xp penalty when a member died,they nerfed it! death dont mean shit anymore.
Different servers allows us to choose the playstyle we want.
why piss anyone offf? many good mature people left when shards left, now eq2 is so dumbed down the wow crowd are taking over, 1-9 chat is shockingly dumb/immature.
So let us play on a server where you have to be social and group again!
Where solo play is almost impossible (ALMOST)
If we find it too tough we don't quit your game, we just switch to another server!
A game with so many different server choices will in my opinion, cater to the masses, subs will go up.
I would be willing to pay more to play on a server with such ruleset as original EQ1 had.
Maybe you would not, so go play on another server?
Solo play leads to gread, anti social chat, when you have to work as a team you learn to behave! /laughs
later
It's not the 12 million bar that hampers the success.
There is only one MMORPG that was designed as a ... videogame.
The other mmorpg's are designed on a franchize, or with fantastic potential ideas, or just 15 year old grinding techniques of letting the players ... pay for months to level.
But mmorpg's should be in the first place videogames and be fun.
Meaning unhampered, fast, tight, responsive controls of the little humanoids you play with. Add in too: reduction of downtime to obtain that fun.
You don't need to sit for 6 hours in front of your screen to search for "fun"; because fun ends rather quick that way.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Upwards of 100 posts here, and no-one has mentioned the name of a human being. It’s all IP, corporates and game names. Maybe that’s the key.
In the absence of a human celebrity, big enough to eclipse the names of the products and organisations behind them, the investors will control everything. So, quick to market, speedy ROI, anything else is a bonus.
I’d wager that more people recognise George Clooney than Warner, Paramount and Lionsgate put together. Create enough real human stars, and soon enough, one will push the market in the direction that real humans (as opposed to investors) want it to go.
Perhaps the games industry needs a Sundance moment.
Good Lord, it appears that I've posted in a forum.
Perhaps it's us that's at fault. Perhaps we have become immune to the addictivity that video games once dispensed. Look at the effects of a heroin user: after a while, the heroin stops taking effect, they need more and more of it to "get their fix". Can't the same logic apply to MMO's?
Our favourite MMO commercialised. Like your favourite rock band selling out to the pop industry to make more cash. With that, we lost the addictivity factor, the hardcore gameplay was extracted and have been sampling everything else that comes our way in a desperate attempt to cling on to what we once had. We don't get that same "kick" anymore.
Why do you think the latest crop of games is failing?
Games aren't failing. It's you.
You've been there done that. The awe you experienced logging onto your first MMO will never happen again.
Perhaps you've matured and games just don't affect you the way they did when you were 17.
Perhaps using all your free time to play games has caused you to suffer burn out. You can get burned out on anything.
Trust me, that 15 year old logging onto his MMO for the first time? MMOs are the bomb.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
You provide a poll but do not provide actual failing games? Failing how so, are they closing down or just didn't live up to your expectations? I don't understand this post, I think this post fails.
It seems pretty straight forward to me.
Lets look at it as Cola.
Part1
Coke comes out and people really like it even though it took awhile to catch on. A lot of people didn't expect just how popular it would be. Another company takes the risk and creates a new Cola. . now there are two colas. There are enough people that want it that both companies can survive and do well and people can chose the one they like the best.
part 2
Over a few years people come out with some other flavours. .people that are tired of Cola take a ride on Mountain Dew for a bit and then eventually head back to Cola while some stay.
Part 3
Eventually everybody and their dog wants to be a part of this. .they think they can make a better Cola. . but it is still Cola. . . . after realizing that getting people to switch over to their Cola is hard given the marketing and shelf space of the other products they decide to add a little crazy to their drink to make it stand out. . so cola with lime. . cola with cherry. Enough people try this out initially that it seems that it might be a success but then only people that really like cherry and lime stay. .
Part 4
Seeing that Cola is King people either try to emulate it or do something completely different. . so the shelves are full of bizzare drinks made by new companies or sad knock offs. . many made by some of the most original companies.
Look at candy. . hmm. . Mars bars are not selling so lets add nut sand release that with a big "new label". Wow we sold a lot. . people like new stuff! Unfortunately no one is buying the one with nuts now so lets release one with . . . um . .berries! Hey we made a lot of money.
Bottom line:
It has become hard to compete with the original. . which many are tired of but they just don't like the new stuff. They will buy a knock off with a twist. . but only for a bit until the "new extra fizzy" label wears off.
Cola has been done. Mountain Dew has been done. . .
The trick here is to not make pop. But then you are back to giant risk taking and a good chance of failure. . and people are making enough money off of their Cherry Cola.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Game developers today are trying to hard to appeal to too wide of an audience, and thereby making bland, watered down gaming experiences for everyone.
Joined 2004 - I can't believe I've been a MMORPG.com member for 20 years! Get off my lawn!
If thats the case, maybe they should stop making MMOs that we've already been to, and done?
How many times are companies going to make an MMO that a 15 year old will be impressed with, when theres another pretty large audience out there, besides them?
if this is your reasoning of course...
At the moment we have 2 kind of games
1) The games with LITTLE or NO grind which are instant fun but after you achieve everything in 2 moonths they lose the appeal like STO for example.
2) The games with LOTS of mindless boring grind like Aion
Neither of those kind of games can keep players playing, each for exactly the opposite reasons to the other.
What we need is a MMO with lot of grind which is fun and involving
So, in which category does EVE fall under, STO or Aion?
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Eve is not recent is it? (Read the title before you post)
Eve is not recent is it? (Read the title before you post)
I prefer to not pick a particular moment in time when there are few good releases and focus on the fact that there are great mmos out atm. Even if they were released a few years ago. People complain alot about the current state of mmos when there are brilliant ones out. So they dont like spaceships or whatever. If its not one thing, its another.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Eve is not recent is it? (Read the title before you post)
I prefer to not pick a particular moment in time when there are few good releases and focus on the fact that there are great mmos out atm. Even if they were released a few years ago.
Yes but the subject is specifically, why the LATEST crop of MMOs are failing, which implies that the oldest one are actually good
Learn how to read between the lines, you are off topic.
But if you really care about an answer, if EvE was new it would fall in neither of those categories.................that s why it is good.
Which is exactly the point of my post.
I'll tell you why ALL MMOs are failing right now. It's because the developers don't listen to the players. They basically do whatever they want and force feed us their crap. I don't know about you all, but I don't take crap.
They aren't failing. If anything they are exploding in terms of number and type.
People are chasing shadows, trying to recreate a mythical UO/SWG/DAOC experience that never really happened, and any real game will never live up. They were just as bad before if not worse.
Funny thing is, those Mythical games you mentioned, allowed the player to have an (some) effect on the world around him.
You don't really see that anymore. It seems a good portion of the games released today are focused mostly on your progression,..
just keep progressing...
This...we're leaving persistent worlds behind as we once had and they are making single player games you play with others online. Their are no virtual persistent worlds anymore and that is what is ruining this genre.
Im just glad some people agree with me :P
I think the reason for this is because persistent worlds may have history, but they usually don’t provide a strong story line with lots of lore. It’s to bad too, because I think your absolutely right.
That's actually not correct at all. UO has a very persistent world and one of the deepest story lines and lore in an MMO to date. Same with EVE Online. CCP actually began releasing it's lore way before EVE launched.
No, that is EXACTLY correct. The title of the thread is "why do you think the LATEST crop of games is failing?" Neither UO nor EVE is part of "the latest crop" of games.
No one is saying that games do not EXIST that do it "right."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
That doesn't mean they're not failing or aren't destined to fail. Many people think developers are throwing darts at a dartboard to see what sticks.
What they're really doing is... you know at the market where you can buy Jif peanut butter or some generic brand? We've got about 35 generic brands of peanut butter on the shelf, and these companies wonder why only a few are selling.
Hardly any of them sit back and go, "Hey... how about some generic coffee instead of peanut butter?" Nope. They see the JIF brand (let's call that WoW) sells, so damn it, we're sticking with peanut butter!
But you're right that, by-and-large, since Dark Age of Camelot it's hard to name MMOs that had an effect on the population at large other than the one obvious one. EVE and FFXI are probably the closest... and that's not saying much.
Compared in yearly revenu ... all mmorpg's failed compared to WOW.
Old or new. Sandbox or liniair. Free to play or subs based.
1.2 billion dollars per year and the second place goes to Aion with 43% of 160 million (that's 5.8% of WOW's part) worldwide.
Third place is EVE at 51 million dollars.
Those are the hard cash figures.
Winner takes it all apparently in MMO land.
Best gameplay wins.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
This resonates with me. I hear....the ring....of truth.
I missed that post, it is a good point though. I think it goes with what I was saying more generically about them not setting out to build an idea so much as to build a business that sells an idea.
Yes. This.
To make a great MMO, in my opinion, you FIRST must have a great world in which the great game play and story can unfold. If the world is not compelling to me on some level....I won't want to spend my time there, regardless of the game play. I have to "believe" that the game world is a big unexplored land of waiting adventure for me. If you can't deliver on that sense of awe....I have issues before I get very far out of the gate. If there is no sense of impending doom and adventure in a vast new world....I have no reason to continue exploring and forging "my way" in the new land.
MMOs, in my opinion of course, are very much about the suspension of disbelief. Make me believe in your world. That, for me, is the first order of "business" for a game.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club