I think that, when discussing the success or failure of mmos, we should pretend that WoW doesnt exist because, lets face it, its numbers make it a freak. WoW is a freak of the mmo world. So you wanna talk about the mmos that fail or not? Lets start with #2 as if it was the #1, and go from there.
That will put the discussion under a completely different light.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
No, that is EXACTLY correct. The title of the thread is "why do you think the LATEST crop of games is failing?" Neither UO nor EVE is part of "the latest crop" of games.
No one is saying that games do not EXIST that do it "right."
Compared in yearly revenu ... all mmorpg's failed compared to WOW.
Old or new. Sandbox or liniair. Free to play or subs based.
1.2 billion dollars per year and the second place goes to Aion with 43% of 160 million (that's 5.8% of WOW's part) worldwide.
Third place is EVE at 51 million dollars.
Those are the hard cash figures.
Winner takes it all apparently in MMO land.
Best gameplay wins.
Why can't we get through ONE damn thread without "WoW this, WoW that?"
I don't think we're necessarily talking about FINANCIAL failure or success. At least I'M not. I'M talking about FAILURE TO ENTERTAIN.
For some....WoW fails to entertain, fails to challenge, fails to compel us to get up on the weekend and immediately crank up the game and play for hours. Sure...for millions, apparently, they are still fascinated with it. Some of us, however, are not entertained with more of the same and more of the same and more of the same endlessly in a land filled with elves, orcs, and the bottomless pit of rep grinding and raiding. And the "latest crop" of games (which WoW is NOT, by the way).....fails to have good entertainment value. Of course, there are exceptions to that rule, at least for me, but over all.....we're seeing a lot of worn out ideas being re-implemented without much success at entertaining.
Capiche?
Of course you probably don't. Because you will somehow manage to turn this into another opportunity to tell us how great WoW is. I'm very happy that YOU are happy with WoW, but not everyone agrees with you.
Ok, on topic now. I think that, when discussing the success or failure of mmos, we should pretend that WoW doesnt exist because, lets face it, its numbers make it a freak. WoW is a freak of the mmo world. So you wanna talk about the mmos that fail or not? Lets start with #2 as if it was the #1, and go from there. That will put the discussion under a completely different light.
Similar to many analysis problems, you throw out the top and the bottom results to get a more clear and accurate assessment.
You're absolutely right.
Apart from the fact....the definition of the word "success" is being assumed by many to be simply FINANCIAL success, and I think the word means much more to the PLAYER than only whether the developer is financially rolling in billions of dollars. Honestly....I don't CARE so much about massive financial success for the game as I care that they SUCCEED in providing me an entertaining game for my money.
Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to have an MMO success discussion without World of Warcraft, since that game not only dominates the MMO industry, but it's largely responsible for the MMO player base growing so large that all these MMOs can exist to begin with.
Several companies tried to be the "2nd Best MMO Under Blizzard" -- most notably with Age of Conan and WAR -- and failed miserably due to their inability to either listen to their player-base, or measure the cause-and-effect of their design decisions (which killed Warhammer).
It seems even when ideas are good on paper, developers just can't seem to get a grasp on MMO trends... like why people are playing, and the incentives they want when they do. WAR looked nice on paper... but the developers were SHOCKED that nobody played defense in PvP when it first came out. Simple: People would get rewards faster with the "Keep Circle Jerk". The devs thought people would fight for the thrill of the fight. MMO audiences do nothing for the sake of it.
This also became the plight of Pirates of the Burning Sea -- with a system that worked for a small beta population, but was hell at release because WE all know what players will do, given the chance, but these developers don't.
That sort of misunderstanding of the player base is at the heart of what's killing even these games that seem like they SHOULD work, games that DO attract audiences. And then they sit in the "failed" pile.
The reason why I don't like games that have come out in the past 5 years is because they are all exact replicas of each other. Each one tries to upstage the last one in easy mode.
I've yet to try out FE, but really, it doesn't sound all too interesting to me. I plan on trying it soon, though.
Every mmo i see even in plans are the same stupid WoW formula over and over and over.
WoW dosnt need 100 brothers and sisters i mean after you have a max level char why would you by WoWClone 1.2 if it just a reskin and remap same bull shit different bag.
Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to have an MMO success discussion without World of Warcraft, since that game not only dominates the MMO industry, but it's largely responsible for the MMO player base growing so large that all these MMOs can exist to begin with. Several companies tried to be the "2nd Best MMO Under Blizzard" -- most notably with Age of Conan and WAR -- and failed miserably due to their inability to either listen to their player-base, or measure the cause-and-effect of their design decisions (which killed Warhammer). It seems even when ideas are good on paper, developers just can't seem to get a grasp on MMO trends... like why people are playing, and the incentives they want when they do. WAR looked nice on paper... but the developers were SHOCKED that nobody played defense in PvP when it first came out. Simple: People would get rewards faster with the "Keep Circle Jerk". The devs thought people would fight for the thrill of the fight. MMO audiences do nothing for the sake of it. This also became the plight of Pirates of the Burning Sea -- with a system that worked for a small beta population, but was hell at release because WE all know what players will do, given the chance, but these developers don't. That sort of misunderstanding of the player base is at the heart of what's killing even these games that seem like they SHOULD work, games that DO attract audiences. And then they sit in the "failed" pile.
I completely agree with your assesment of WAR..
They rewarded the individual as opposed to the realm.. Take this keep, and you could get annihilator gear, as opposed to defend this keep, and your realm will keep its reward for taking it in the first place. Wether that be realm wide buffs, better drop %, i don't know..
I was under the impression going in, i was fighting for my realm, not better lewtz.
Do I have the easy answer of realm rewards, no, sadly...
edit: and this goes right back to i feel like i am just there to progress.. To keep building a character that keeps getting more progression thrown at him, that isn't really any different than the last batch of progression.. to the point of naseum..
Every mmo i see even in plans are the same stupid WoW formula over and over and over. WoW dosnt need 100 brothers and sisters i mean after you have a max level char why would you by WoWClone 1.2 if it just a reskin and remap same bull shit different bag.
Over all....I couldn't agree more.
There are game developers that have taken some risks and strayed outside of the "WoW clone" formula, however, even in the past five years. And for myself, I have found those games that are NOT trying to recreate the wheel....to be more entertaining than those that just re-packaged WoW essentially. I've already played WoW. If I wanted to play more WoW....I'd just go back to the original rather than playing WoW again "under new management" with a new storefront, so to speak.
Maybe the original question the thread started with should have ADDED to it....why is it that more people don't seem interested in games that are outside of the WoW formula? I think the answer to that is....many of the people that are playing it, are playing their first MMO ever. They don't have any idea what other MMOs are even like. They are entertained.....for now. And once they become bored, they may leave the coddling motherly nurturing environment of WoW and seek something more fulfilling. On the other hand....they may NOT, because for some of them, WoW is all they have known. To them....WoW is the only MMO experience that suits them. This is also why "WoW clones" are not hugely successful. People who want to play WoW....are playing WoW. Why would they go play WoW somewhere else?
Sadly....that isn't true for many of those that have been gaming since the early to mid 90s, and while there are a lot of us, the new crop of casual gamers and first time MMO'ers that WoW hatched, is massive in number in comparison. A constant diet of pizza may be fine for some people, especially if pizza is a NEW thing to them, but frankly....I want meat, potatoes, veggies, a glass of wine, and a fine desert with my meal. Sure....pizza is great, but I don't want to LIVE on it. Strange analogy, I know...but I'm just talking off the top of my head with that one, so....sue me.
Originally posted by uquipu Why do you think the latest crop of games is failing?
Games aren't failing. It's you. You've been there done that. The awe you experienced logging onto your first MMO will never happen again. Perhaps you've matured and games just don't affect you the way they did when you were 17. Perhaps using all your free time to play games has caused you to suffer burn out. You can get burned out on anything. Trust me, that 15 year old logging onto his MMO for the first time? MMOs are the bomb.
Disagree. Here is why. Currently I have been sorely disappointed with games like STO, AoC, WAR, Aion, and most of the others to come out in the last 3 years. So what do I do? I go back to games I like OR I try games that came out a few years back and see how they are doing.
Guess what? I'm finding I really enjoy games like Eve, Vanguard, LOTRO immensely. Even WoW when it deigns to release some "new" content. But everything after those games launched? Just feel like complete failures in terms of gameplay, fun, world setting, etc. Maybe they are all just trying to mimic the financial success of WoW instead of trying to "craft" a quality unique game.
Eventually this trend will end, and the newer next gen MMORPGs will hopefully get better. I'm looking at you FFXIV, STOR, Heroes of Telara and the myriad sandboxes(PLEASE let them be good) coming our way.
Whats the average subscription number for mmorpg in the west? Not counting Wow obviously? About 120k? 100k? All those games fall in that area of subs. so I ask you are all those games failures or just what you would expect from todays mmo genre?
sir never rely on sub count a sub thats long long expired is still counted in these totals not 1 game will give you a active players {those that have logged in with in 7 days} sub count its just not done the numbers then fall to a level that takes the oh my out of the number
sub count its just a diversion it is in its self hype one of the leading couses of the mmo's we see today
I disagree through financial statements you can figure out the sub totals. These companys wouldn't lie to investors.
Compared in yearly revenu ... all mmorpg's failed compared to WOW. Old or new. Sandbox or liniair. Free to play or subs based. 1.2 billion dollars per year and the second place goes to Aion with 43% of 160 million (that's 5.8% of WOW's part) worldwide. Third place is EVE at 51 million dollars. Those are the hard cash figures. Winner takes it all apparently in MMO land. Best gameplay wins.
I don't think we're necessarily talking about FINANCIAL failure or success. At least I'M not. I'M talking about FAILURE TO ENTERTAIN.
For some....WoW fails to entertain, fails to challenge, fails to compel us to get up on the weekend and immediately crank up the game and play for hours. Sure...for millions, apparently, they are still fascinated with it. Some of us, however, are not entertained with more of the same and more of the same and more of the same endlessly in a land filled with elves, orcs, and the bottomless pit of rep grinding and raiding. And the "latest crop" of games (which WoW is NOT, by the way).....fails to have good entertainment value. Of course, there are exceptions to that rule, at least for me, but over all.....we're seeing a lot of worn out ideas being re-implemented without much success at entertaining.
Capiche?
In the end it all comes down to the balance sheets in our economies.
I made 3 examples above of the most succesful games - money wise - in the last 5 years.
You fail to realise that the bottom line of it all is that people pay subs to play those games.
If they don't pay the subs that's because they failed to generate the subcriptions and money, hense failed for the vast majority of gamers. Yesterday, today or tomorrow. Those earnings have to be earned on a month to month basis.
If you can only look at your belly, that's good for you, but only for you. I like to look at the big picture and analyse ...
... what people in general like to play and why.
Your individual experience for 5 years with one game was great, no need to turn on the heat when someone reminds you of that very personal and subjective view.
You would be a very bad analist within the industry.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Ok, on topic now. I think that, when discussing the success or failure of mmos, we should pretend that WoW doesnt exist because, lets face it, its numbers make it a freak. WoW is a freak of the mmo world. So you wanna talk about the mmos that fail or not? Lets start with #2 as if it was the #1, and go from there. That will put the discussion under a completely different light.
Similar to many analysis problems, you throw out the top and the bottom results to get a more clear and accurate assessment.
You're absolutely right.
Apart from the fact....the definition of the word "success" is being assumed by many to be simply FINANCIAL success, and I think the word means much more to the PLAYER than only whether the developer is financially rolling in billions of dollars. Honestly....I don't CARE so much about massive financial success for the game as I care that they SUCCEED in providing me an entertaining game for my money.
Yup. If a game is paying the bills and making enough profit to make it worthwhile its a success. The haters have been saying EQ2 is dead for years but anyone who can think knows that if it was losing money or just breaking even they would close it down. To some, any game that doesnt have WOW numbers (belief in such numbers is optional) is a failed game.
I voted oversaturation of game types. There's alot of good MMOs out right now. Any newcomer is going to have to be extra special for people to want to switch. And there just hasn't been any extra special MMORPGs to come out since World of Warcraft in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Ok, on topic now. I think that, when discussing the success or failure of mmos, we should pretend that WoW doesnt exist because, lets face it, its numbers make it a freak. WoW is a freak of the mmo world. So you wanna talk about the mmos that fail or not? Lets start with #2 as if it was the #1, and go from there. That will put the discussion under a completely different light.
Similar to many analysis problems, you throw out the top and the bottom results to get a more clear and accurate assessment.
You're absolutely right.
Apart from the fact....the definition of the word "success" is being assumed by many to be simply FINANCIAL success, and I think the word means much more to the PLAYER than only whether the developer is financially rolling in billions of dollars. Honestly....I don't CARE so much about massive financial success for the game as I care that they SUCCEED in providing me an entertaining game for my money.
Yup. If a game is paying the bills and making enough profit to make it worthwhile its a success. The haters have been saying EQ2 is dead for years but anyone who can think knows that if it was losing money or just breaking even they would close it down. To some, any game that doesnt have WOW numbers (belief in such numbers is optional) is a failed game.
I think that is the issue with "camp1111." He/she, while accusing me, essentially of "looking at my own belly" alone, is wanting to "look at the bigger picture." However....I'm sorry, but we're talking about gaming here. Gaming is entertainment....self-gratifying recreation. For the player....that IS what it IS.
It's not my job to "look at the bigger picture." I pay to be entertained. If I'm not entertained....I'm not paying. And as a gamer, it's as simple as that to me. For me a game only, like you said, needs to make enough money to satisfy the company and keep me entertained. I couldn't give two poops and a copulation (yes, I substituted PG rated words there)....whether a developer is "successfully" showing WoW's numbers on their annual financial report.
Furthermore....a game IS successful to ME if it succeeds in making me feel like my entertainment budget is being well spent. Period. Am I interested in WHY people play games like WoW? No....not really. I have a fair idea as to why. But that in no way affects me on a personal level. I'm not a game developer or a marketing analyst. I'm a gamer. My "job," as far as games are concerned....is to have SHIT TONS OF FUN simply PLAYING them. And what a great "job" that is!
So "camp1111," you're welcome to look deeper than "your own belly" if you like, but....unless you have some inroads to game publishers and developers that most of us don't have.....that is....OTHER THAN your wallet....it won't help you one bit to understand why people play WoW or any other game. Just understanding why people think differently than me about games....won't make the games I DO enjoy any more or less enjoyable. It changes nothing about which games I, personally, consider successful at entertaining ME. Yes...I'm selfish about my hobby. I don't care if it is making Joe Blow down the street happy. He's not paying my sub fees.
WoW is a financial blockbuster. Does that make it more entertaining to me? Nope.
Another of my award winning analogies (I jest):
If I hated sushi....and the most successful sushi bar was Jin's Japanese Steak House, and they were making billions of dollars a year....would I want to go there any more than I did before I knew they were rolling in money? Nope.
Oh the other hand, if I loved seafood (of the cooked variety) and The Marina Seafood Shack was only making a moderate amount of profit above their financial needs to keep the business running, but I LOVED their crab cakes....would I stop eating there because Jin's Japanese was kicking their ass in annual revenue? Seriously? Come on. NO.
Same with gaming for me. Just saying "Game X" is successful and rich and therefore it's "the best" (entirely subjective word that "best" word) and you should want to play it.....that's illogical to me.
Originally posted by girlgeek Maybe the original question the thread started with should have ADDED to it....why is it that more people don't seem interested in games that are outside of the WoW formula? I think the answer to that is....many of the people that are playing it, are playing their first MMO ever. They don't have any idea what other MMOs are even like. They are entertained.....for now. And once they become bored, they may leave the coddling motherly nurturing environment of WoW and seek something more fulfilling. On the other hand....they may NOT, because for some of them, WoW is all they have known. To them....WoW is the only MMO experience that suits them. This is also why "WoW clones" are not hugely successful. People who want to play WoW....are playing WoW. Why would they go play WoW somewhere else?
Looking at what the market has offered the last five years is there really any question why more people have not moved to new mmo offerings?
Which is the more likely scenario?
A) millions and millions of people just don't know about other mmos for whatever reasons we chose to imagine
-or-
The market is filled with rushed, incomplete, unfinished, buggy games that lack any cohesion and spend the better part of their first several years on the market scrambling to try to make their games something that people will enjoy?
How many new mmos are going to have to break the 1 million user threshold before we can put this tired notion that millions of people just don't know about or try other mmos and start looking at the reasons why other mmos lack the staying power that older mmos had.
I have no doubts why people are not spending more money and more importantly their time in newer mmos. It is painfully obvious to be honest.
Old MMO's didn't have the staying power, there were just fewer places to go to. New MMO's have just as much staying power as old ones, and will likely last just as long. There are good newer MMO's, there are crappy newer MMO's. There were crappy old MMO's too.
Don't any of you remember how the old MMO"s were when they first launched. They were crappy, bug filled, lag filled messes. We just didn't know any better. New MMO"s by far and away have much much much better launches than the old ones did. And just like old MMO"s some are doing well others are not.
There is no latest crop of games failing, there is just some games failing, more than before because there are more and more games, so there are more and more failures and successes.
The latest crop have just failed for you and people who like the same type of games as you.
Seperate your personal opinion and just look at the facts for the genre: More people playing, more games being developed, more money being thrown at games by developers as evidenced by more games being created. The genre is getting bigger and bigger, and yes more games will suck, but there will also be more good games becaus of it.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Why do you think the latest crop of games is failing?
Games aren't failing. It's you.
You've been there done that. The awe you experienced logging onto your first MMO will never happen again.
Perhaps you've matured and games just don't affect you the way they did when you were 17.
Perhaps using all your free time to play games has caused you to suffer burn out. You can get burned out on anything.
Trust me, that 15 year old logging onto his MMO for the first time? MMOs are the bomb.
Disagree. Here is why. Currently I have been sorely disappointed with games like STO, AoC, WAR, Aion, and most of the others to come out in the last 3 years. So what do I do? I go back to games I like OR I try games that came out a few years back and see how they are doing.
Guess what? I'm finding I really enjoy games like Eve, Vanguard, LOTRO immensely.
You're a lucky man to have so many games you enjoy.
There's always going to be some bads no matter what. That goes for anything, not just games.
I'm not sure what the point of your post is now. Not all MMOs are hits?
To me they are failing Because they are makeing Games and Not Worlds. A Game is fun for a little while. A world can Take years to fully Explore and Conquer.
This resonates with me. I hear....the ring....of truth.
I missed that post, it is a good point though. I think it goes with what I was saying more generically about them not setting out to build an idea so much as to build a business that sells an idea.
Yes. This.
To make a great MMO, in my opinion, you FIRST must have a great world in which the great game play and story can unfold. If the world is not compelling to me on some level....I won't want to spend my time there, regardless of the game play. I have to "believe" that the game world is a big unexplored land of waiting adventure for me. If you can't deliver on that sense of awe....I have issues before I get very far out of the gate. If there is no sense of impending doom and adventure in a vast new world....I have no reason to continue exploring and forging "my way" in the new land.
MMOs, in my opinion of course, are very much about the suspension of disbelief. Make me believe in your world. That, for me, is the first order of "business" for a game.
This Times 1000....
Honestly... Why are all the developers makeing these "Games"?
Hopefully these latest crop of Complete Failures will convince Developers to stop with this crap and Start makeing worlds again.. Or atleast start chargeing what the game is worth. I Love Global Agenda. There is No way in hell I would pay for a Sub to the game as it is now. To me its just a sweet TF2 style game. Log in for 30 min, Play a match, Log out.
If STO had this system and I could play around with the basic game and have Fun for free Id play it to. But there isent any Depth to the game. Same for AOC, WAR, Ect... Id love to play them. But they arn't worth a Sub.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. Samuel Adams
The majority of mmos are pretty much the same thing, and a rehashing of a few bits here and there isnt enough to keep players interested for any amount of time. Once the novelty of a new game dies, people move on to the next best thing. Its not that new mmos arent any good. Its just that after youve played pretty much the same thing for the past 10 years your not really going to be hooked by a few improvements.
10 years of the same stuff just isnt going to cut it anymore.
I think the mmos of late (not all but the majority) have been just rushed out the door. This selling pre-orders and CE boxes for beta access and special items is just exploiting the crap out of everyone.
And we fall for it every time. It seems dating back to AoC that all the big name mmos since then have sold close to a million boxes. The first week or so there are huge server queues and the hype is incredible. And then 3 months later populations are a tenth of that.
The "it's a new game it doesn't have to have any content" excuse just won't fly anymore. People aren't going to leave an established mmo for a new one permanently unless it's better than the game they are already playing. There just isn't any reason to. The initial rush of the character creation and early leveling wears off fast. And as people approach end game they are likely to call it quits and head back t their older more established mmo if the content isn't there.
2 reasons: 1) Company lies about features in the past then releases fanbots to say "they only promised X" 2) Company has no clue what they are doing, same problems for months, such as bugs and lag
and if you think i am talking about Mortal Online, I am.
Even if you give them feedback and make as much sense as putting food on a plate they still don't grasp the concept and instead think they can figure it out w/o anyone else.
Stubbornness and Stupidity shouldn't be allowed when creating game titles
Making money is fine imo AS LONG AS you understand that you're likely not gonna rake in 15 million right out the gate.
Nobody is Everquest Nobody is WoW but them.
Comparing or Creating a game similar to theirs is just asking for it.
2) Company has no clue what they are doing, same problems for months, such as bugs and lag
Speaking of that, damn I can't stand bugs that sit around forever. AoC was notorious for that. And STO has so many bugs it's mind boggling. Nothing says FU to a customer better than: "Sorry, that quest is bugged, we will fix it some time soon. Just drop it for now."
Got to the bugs section of the STO forums and stare in amazement at the sheer numbers of quests/items that are bugged in that game.
It isn't the main reason I quit STO but it didn't help.
Comments
Ok, on topic now.
I think that, when discussing the success or failure of mmos, we should pretend that WoW doesnt exist because, lets face it, its numbers make it a freak. WoW is a freak of the mmo world. So you wanna talk about the mmos that fail or not? Lets start with #2 as if it was the #1, and go from there.
That will put the discussion under a completely different light.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Compared in yearly revenu ... all mmorpg's failed compared to WOW.
Old or new. Sandbox or liniair. Free to play or subs based.
1.2 billion dollars per year and the second place goes to Aion with 43% of 160 million (that's 5.8% of WOW's part) worldwide.
Third place is EVE at 51 million dollars.
Those are the hard cash figures.
Winner takes it all apparently in MMO land.
Best gameplay wins.
Why can't we get through ONE damn thread without "WoW this, WoW that?"
I don't think we're necessarily talking about FINANCIAL failure or success. At least I'M not. I'M talking about FAILURE TO ENTERTAIN.
For some....WoW fails to entertain, fails to challenge, fails to compel us to get up on the weekend and immediately crank up the game and play for hours. Sure...for millions, apparently, they are still fascinated with it. Some of us, however, are not entertained with more of the same and more of the same and more of the same endlessly in a land filled with elves, orcs, and the bottomless pit of rep grinding and raiding. And the "latest crop" of games (which WoW is NOT, by the way).....fails to have good entertainment value. Of course, there are exceptions to that rule, at least for me, but over all.....we're seeing a lot of worn out ideas being re-implemented without much success at entertaining.
Capiche?
Of course you probably don't. Because you will somehow manage to turn this into another opportunity to tell us how great WoW is. I'm very happy that YOU are happy with WoW, but not everyone agrees with you.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Similar to many analysis problems, you throw out the top and the bottom results to get a more clear and accurate assessment.
You're absolutely right.
Apart from the fact....the definition of the word "success" is being assumed by many to be simply FINANCIAL success, and I think the word means much more to the PLAYER than only whether the developer is financially rolling in billions of dollars. Honestly....I don't CARE so much about massive financial success for the game as I care that they SUCCEED in providing me an entertaining game for my money.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Unfortunately it's nearly impossible to have an MMO success discussion without World of Warcraft, since that game not only dominates the MMO industry, but it's largely responsible for the MMO player base growing so large that all these MMOs can exist to begin with.
Several companies tried to be the "2nd Best MMO Under Blizzard" -- most notably with Age of Conan and WAR -- and failed miserably due to their inability to either listen to their player-base, or measure the cause-and-effect of their design decisions (which killed Warhammer).
It seems even when ideas are good on paper, developers just can't seem to get a grasp on MMO trends... like why people are playing, and the incentives they want when they do. WAR looked nice on paper... but the developers were SHOCKED that nobody played defense in PvP when it first came out. Simple: People would get rewards faster with the "Keep Circle Jerk". The devs thought people would fight for the thrill of the fight. MMO audiences do nothing for the sake of it.
This also became the plight of Pirates of the Burning Sea -- with a system that worked for a small beta population, but was hell at release because WE all know what players will do, given the chance, but these developers don't.
That sort of misunderstanding of the player base is at the heart of what's killing even these games that seem like they SHOULD work, games that DO attract audiences. And then they sit in the "failed" pile.
The reason why I don't like games that have come out in the past 5 years is because they are all exact replicas of each other. Each one tries to upstage the last one in easy mode.
I've yet to try out FE, but really, it doesn't sound all too interesting to me. I plan on trying it soon, though.
Every mmo i see even in plans are the same stupid WoW formula over and over and over.
WoW dosnt need 100 brothers and sisters i mean after you have a max level char why would you by WoWClone 1.2 if it just a reskin and remap same bull shit different bag.
I completely agree with your assesment of WAR..
They rewarded the individual as opposed to the realm.. Take this keep, and you could get annihilator gear, as opposed to defend this keep, and your realm will keep its reward for taking it in the first place. Wether that be realm wide buffs, better drop %, i don't know..
I was under the impression going in, i was fighting for my realm, not better lewtz.
Do I have the easy answer of realm rewards, no, sadly...
edit: and this goes right back to i feel like i am just there to progress.. To keep building a character that keeps getting more progression thrown at him, that isn't really any different than the last batch of progression.. to the point of naseum..
Over all....I couldn't agree more.
There are game developers that have taken some risks and strayed outside of the "WoW clone" formula, however, even in the past five years. And for myself, I have found those games that are NOT trying to recreate the wheel....to be more entertaining than those that just re-packaged WoW essentially. I've already played WoW. If I wanted to play more WoW....I'd just go back to the original rather than playing WoW again "under new management" with a new storefront, so to speak.
Maybe the original question the thread started with should have ADDED to it....why is it that more people don't seem interested in games that are outside of the WoW formula? I think the answer to that is....many of the people that are playing it, are playing their first MMO ever. They don't have any idea what other MMOs are even like. They are entertained.....for now. And once they become bored, they may leave the coddling motherly nurturing environment of WoW and seek something more fulfilling. On the other hand....they may NOT, because for some of them, WoW is all they have known. To them....WoW is the only MMO experience that suits them. This is also why "WoW clones" are not hugely successful. People who want to play WoW....are playing WoW. Why would they go play WoW somewhere else?
Sadly....that isn't true for many of those that have been gaming since the early to mid 90s, and while there are a lot of us, the new crop of casual gamers and first time MMO'ers that WoW hatched, is massive in number in comparison. A constant diet of pizza may be fine for some people, especially if pizza is a NEW thing to them, but frankly....I want meat, potatoes, veggies, a glass of wine, and a fine desert with my meal. Sure....pizza is great, but I don't want to LIVE on it. Strange analogy, I know...but I'm just talking off the top of my head with that one, so....sue me.
Bah....I'm rambling. I need more coffee.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Disagree. Here is why. Currently I have been sorely disappointed with games like STO, AoC, WAR, Aion, and most of the others to come out in the last 3 years. So what do I do? I go back to games I like OR I try games that came out a few years back and see how they are doing.
Guess what? I'm finding I really enjoy games like Eve, Vanguard, LOTRO immensely. Even WoW when it deigns to release some "new" content. But everything after those games launched? Just feel like complete failures in terms of gameplay, fun, world setting, etc. Maybe they are all just trying to mimic the financial success of WoW instead of trying to "craft" a quality unique game.
Eventually this trend will end, and the newer next gen MMORPGs will hopefully get better. I'm looking at you FFXIV, STOR, Heroes of Telara and the myriad sandboxes(PLEASE let them be good) coming our way.
sir never rely on sub count a sub thats long long expired is still counted in these totals not 1 game will give you a active players {those that have logged in with in 7 days} sub count its just not done the numbers then fall to a level that takes the oh my out of the number
sub count its just a diversion it is in its self hype one of the leading couses of the mmo's we see today
I disagree through financial statements you can figure out the sub totals. These companys wouldn't lie to investors.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I don't think we're necessarily talking about FINANCIAL failure or success. At least I'M not. I'M talking about FAILURE TO ENTERTAIN.
For some....WoW fails to entertain, fails to challenge, fails to compel us to get up on the weekend and immediately crank up the game and play for hours. Sure...for millions, apparently, they are still fascinated with it. Some of us, however, are not entertained with more of the same and more of the same and more of the same endlessly in a land filled with elves, orcs, and the bottomless pit of rep grinding and raiding. And the "latest crop" of games (which WoW is NOT, by the way).....fails to have good entertainment value. Of course, there are exceptions to that rule, at least for me, but over all.....we're seeing a lot of worn out ideas being re-implemented without much success at entertaining.
Capiche?
In the end it all comes down to the balance sheets in our economies.
I made 3 examples above of the most succesful games - money wise - in the last 5 years.
You fail to realise that the bottom line of it all is that people pay subs to play those games.
If they don't pay the subs that's because they failed to generate the subcriptions and money, hense failed for the vast majority of gamers. Yesterday, today or tomorrow. Those earnings have to be earned on a month to month basis.
If you can only look at your belly, that's good for you, but only for you. I like to look at the big picture and analyse ...
... what people in general like to play and why.
Your individual experience for 5 years with one game was great, no need to turn on the heat when someone reminds you of that very personal and subjective view.
You would be a very bad analist within the industry.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Similar to many analysis problems, you throw out the top and the bottom results to get a more clear and accurate assessment.
You're absolutely right.
Apart from the fact....the definition of the word "success" is being assumed by many to be simply FINANCIAL success, and I think the word means much more to the PLAYER than only whether the developer is financially rolling in billions of dollars. Honestly....I don't CARE so much about massive financial success for the game as I care that they SUCCEED in providing me an entertaining game for my money.
Yup. If a game is paying the bills and making enough profit to make it worthwhile its a success. The haters have been saying EQ2 is dead for years but anyone who can think knows that if it was losing money or just breaking even they would close it down. To some, any game that doesnt have WOW numbers (belief in such numbers is optional) is a failed game.
I voted oversaturation of game types. There's alot of good MMOs out right now. Any newcomer is going to have to be extra special for people to want to switch. And there just hasn't been any extra special MMORPGs to come out since World of Warcraft in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Similar to many analysis problems, you throw out the top and the bottom results to get a more clear and accurate assessment.
You're absolutely right.
Apart from the fact....the definition of the word "success" is being assumed by many to be simply FINANCIAL success, and I think the word means much more to the PLAYER than only whether the developer is financially rolling in billions of dollars. Honestly....I don't CARE so much about massive financial success for the game as I care that they SUCCEED in providing me an entertaining game for my money.
Yup. If a game is paying the bills and making enough profit to make it worthwhile its a success. The haters have been saying EQ2 is dead for years but anyone who can think knows that if it was losing money or just breaking even they would close it down. To some, any game that doesnt have WOW numbers (belief in such numbers is optional) is a failed game.
I think that is the issue with "camp1111." He/she, while accusing me, essentially of "looking at my own belly" alone, is wanting to "look at the bigger picture." However....I'm sorry, but we're talking about gaming here. Gaming is entertainment....self-gratifying recreation. For the player....that IS what it IS.
It's not my job to "look at the bigger picture." I pay to be entertained. If I'm not entertained....I'm not paying. And as a gamer, it's as simple as that to me. For me a game only, like you said, needs to make enough money to satisfy the company and keep me entertained. I couldn't give two poops and a copulation (yes, I substituted PG rated words there)....whether a developer is "successfully" showing WoW's numbers on their annual financial report.
Furthermore....a game IS successful to ME if it succeeds in making me feel like my entertainment budget is being well spent. Period. Am I interested in WHY people play games like WoW? No....not really. I have a fair idea as to why. But that in no way affects me on a personal level. I'm not a game developer or a marketing analyst. I'm a gamer. My "job," as far as games are concerned....is to have SHIT TONS OF FUN simply PLAYING them. And what a great "job" that is!
So "camp1111," you're welcome to look deeper than "your own belly" if you like, but....unless you have some inroads to game publishers and developers that most of us don't have.....that is....OTHER THAN your wallet....it won't help you one bit to understand why people play WoW or any other game. Just understanding why people think differently than me about games....won't make the games I DO enjoy any more or less enjoyable. It changes nothing about which games I, personally, consider successful at entertaining ME. Yes...I'm selfish about my hobby. I don't care if it is making Joe Blow down the street happy. He's not paying my sub fees.
WoW is a financial blockbuster. Does that make it more entertaining to me? Nope.
Another of my award winning analogies (I jest):
If I hated sushi....and the most successful sushi bar was Jin's Japanese Steak House, and they were making billions of dollars a year....would I want to go there any more than I did before I knew they were rolling in money? Nope.
Oh the other hand, if I loved seafood (of the cooked variety) and The Marina Seafood Shack was only making a moderate amount of profit above their financial needs to keep the business running, but I LOVED their crab cakes....would I stop eating there because Jin's Japanese was kicking their ass in annual revenue? Seriously? Come on. NO.
Same with gaming for me. Just saying "Game X" is successful and rich and therefore it's "the best" (entirely subjective word that "best" word) and you should want to play it.....that's illogical to me.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Looking at what the market has offered the last five years is there really any question why more people have not moved to new mmo offerings?
Which is the more likely scenario?
A) millions and millions of people just don't know about other mmos for whatever reasons we chose to imagine
-or-
How many new mmos are going to have to break the 1 million user threshold before we can put this tired notion that millions of people just don't know about or try other mmos and start looking at the reasons why other mmos lack the staying power that older mmos had.
I have no doubts why people are not spending more money and more importantly their time in newer mmos. It is painfully obvious to be honest.
Old MMO's didn't have the staying power, there were just fewer places to go to. New MMO's have just as much staying power as old ones, and will likely last just as long. There are good newer MMO's, there are crappy newer MMO's. There were crappy old MMO's too.
Don't any of you remember how the old MMO"s were when they first launched. They were crappy, bug filled, lag filled messes. We just didn't know any better. New MMO"s by far and away have much much much better launches than the old ones did. And just like old MMO"s some are doing well others are not.
There is no latest crop of games failing, there is just some games failing, more than before because there are more and more games, so there are more and more failures and successes.
The latest crop have just failed for you and people who like the same type of games as you.
Seperate your personal opinion and just look at the facts for the genre: More people playing, more games being developed, more money being thrown at games by developers as evidenced by more games being created. The genre is getting bigger and bigger, and yes more games will suck, but there will also be more good games becaus of it.
Venge Sunsoar
Disagree. Here is why. Currently I have been sorely disappointed with games like STO, AoC, WAR, Aion, and most of the others to come out in the last 3 years. So what do I do? I go back to games I like OR I try games that came out a few years back and see how they are doing.
Guess what? I'm finding I really enjoy games like Eve, Vanguard, LOTRO immensely.
You're a lucky man to have so many games you enjoy.
There's always going to be some bads no matter what. That goes for anything, not just games.
I'm not sure what the point of your post is now. Not all MMOs are hits?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
This resonates with me. I hear....the ring....of truth.
I missed that post, it is a good point though. I think it goes with what I was saying more generically about them not setting out to build an idea so much as to build a business that sells an idea.
Yes. This.
To make a great MMO, in my opinion, you FIRST must have a great world in which the great game play and story can unfold. If the world is not compelling to me on some level....I won't want to spend my time there, regardless of the game play. I have to "believe" that the game world is a big unexplored land of waiting adventure for me. If you can't deliver on that sense of awe....I have issues before I get very far out of the gate. If there is no sense of impending doom and adventure in a vast new world....I have no reason to continue exploring and forging "my way" in the new land.
MMOs, in my opinion of course, are very much about the suspension of disbelief. Make me believe in your world. That, for me, is the first order of "business" for a game.
This Times 1000....
Honestly... Why are all the developers makeing these "Games"?
Hopefully these latest crop of Complete Failures will convince Developers to stop with this crap and Start makeing worlds again.. Or atleast start chargeing what the game is worth. I Love Global Agenda. There is No way in hell I would pay for a Sub to the game as it is now. To me its just a sweet TF2 style game. Log in for 30 min, Play a match, Log out.
If STO had this system and I could play around with the basic game and have Fun for free Id play it to. But there isent any Depth to the game. Same for AOC, WAR, Ect... Id love to play them. But they arn't worth a Sub.
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Its all of the above.
The majority of mmos are pretty much the same thing, and a rehashing of a few bits here and there isnt enough to keep players interested for any amount of time. Once the novelty of a new game dies, people move on to the next best thing. Its not that new mmos arent any good. Its just that after youve played pretty much the same thing for the past 10 years your not really going to be hooked by a few improvements.
10 years of the same stuff just isnt going to cut it anymore.
That makes you personaly dis/liking the game only and has next to zero bearing on the game and it's state.
It won't make Usain Bolt less fastest 100m sprinter on the planet only because you think that he's not 'that fast'...
Design decisions focused too much on linearity and balance/control, restricting players freedom and the "human factor".
&
Too much focus on combat and horizontal progression (power).
&
Players not being treated as consumers, but as kids/criminals.
I think the mmos of late (not all but the majority) have been just rushed out the door. This selling pre-orders and CE boxes for beta access and special items is just exploiting the crap out of everyone.
And we fall for it every time. It seems dating back to AoC that all the big name mmos since then have sold close to a million boxes. The first week or so there are huge server queues and the hype is incredible. And then 3 months later populations are a tenth of that.
The "it's a new game it doesn't have to have any content" excuse just won't fly anymore. People aren't going to leave an established mmo for a new one permanently unless it's better than the game they are already playing. There just isn't any reason to. The initial rush of the character creation and early leveling wears off fast. And as people approach end game they are likely to call it quits and head back t their older more established mmo if the content isn't there.
2 reasons:
1) Company lies about features in the past then releases fanbots to say "they only promised X"
2) Company has no clue what they are doing, same problems for months, such as bugs and lag
and if you think i am talking about Mortal Online, I am.
Actually #2 could recently apply to ALOT of MMOs
Even if you give them feedback and make as much sense as putting food on a plate they still don't grasp the concept and instead think they can figure it out w/o anyone else.
Stubbornness and Stupidity shouldn't be allowed when creating game titles
Making money is fine imo AS LONG AS you understand that you're likely not gonna rake in 15 million right out the gate.
Nobody is Everquest Nobody is WoW but them.
Comparing or Creating a game similar to theirs is just asking for it.
Speaking of that, damn I can't stand bugs that sit around forever. AoC was notorious for that. And STO has so many bugs it's mind boggling. Nothing says FU to a customer better than: "Sorry, that quest is bugged, we will fix it some time soon. Just drop it for now."
Got to the bugs section of the STO forums and stare in amazement at the sheer numbers of quests/items that are bugged in that game.
It isn't the main reason I quit STO but it didn't help.