1200 / 90 = Around 13 mobs per day. Is that a lot for you? That's around 30 minutes of PvE per day (and I've been playing 5+ hours per day). Please just give up, mmoluva.
Ultima Online 98~04 Dark Age of Camelot 03~07 Final Fantasy XI 04~06 Guild Wars 05~08 World of Warcraft 04~05 Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
I went from Darkfall EU to Global Agenda, and am now back in Darkfall US.
They are essentially polar opposites in terms of pvp philosophy - In GA I can compete very quickly in fast paced adrenaline packed combat, in DF I am now a total noob getting raped at goblin spawns with likely 2 months of intensive gamplay ahead of me to develop a semi-decent build.
I guess I am enjoying darkfall even though the pace is slow because there is a certain sense of accomplishment that I can work towards and the pvp is more meaningful because there is something to lose.
It would be nice if I could catch up more quickly in DF, but its not like there aern't other games out there that satisy this. Once I get bored of those, which is usually quite quickly because the pvp is essentially meaningles and shallow, then I head back to darkfall where I will get owned for a while, but at least have something to work towards.
I will continue to hope that one day there will be a game that combines both aspects, basically intensive, meaningful pvp that is based on mainly player skill and not grinded skills. So far the only game that has really achieved this is Planetside.
Mortal online is the game you are looking for. Its on open beta now, so go try it to see if it appeal to you.
About the grind, there is no grind in MO. You simply play the game and you progress at a good pace. 1 thing, all rewards are at risk. There is no permanent rewards. Just like in DF, you lose your gears on death, but banks are local. Banks and inventory have a noticeable limited amount of space. By no reward are permanent, i meant to say that even on death as a pker, you can lose you stats by 10%
I originally estimated that I would have to kill roughly 10,000 mobs before I would have a competitive chance at PVP but I think I may only need to kill about 9,000. About once a day I will die to a Red Player while at a PVE spot and when I die its still an absolute slaughter even after 4,217 PVE kills under my belt. I'm always left with the same thoughts, man that player sure did A LOT of PVE. I've only been grinding for 4 weeks and I've been hitting it pretty hard but man oh man do I have a long way to go before I can give a PVE maxed out Red Player a run. So, I really only have about 4,800+ PVE kills to go which i keep telling myself isn't that bad but it is starting to wear on me a little I must admit. My advice to new players is take frequent breaks and avoid burnout. Try not to focus on the entire 9,000 PVE kills and focus on the next mob and the one after etc.
My advice to you is to stop grinding so much and enjoy the game...it is a video game afterall lol
Too many people only care about being tough asap (WoW anyone?) rather then playing the game it was meant to be played. I'm about 2-3months of playing Darkfall casually and just last night I pawnd a ganker trying to drop me at half health. Strength will come in time in Darkfall, grinding pve is only making it painfull to get there so whats the point? Take your time and do what you enjoying doing in the meantime...after 2.5months of Darkfall I still find plenty of things to do each night to mix it up ad make the overall skilling up process feal more fun. Who wouda knew MMORPGs were designed to be played rather then grinded...lol
Mortal online is the game you are looking for. Its on open beta now, so go try it to see if it appeal to you. About the grind, there is no grind in MO. You simply play the game and you progress at a good pace. 1 thing, all rewards are at risk. There is no permanent rewards. Just like in DF, you lose your gears on death, but banks are local. Banks and inventory have a noticeable limited amount of space. By no reward are permanent, i meant to say that even on death as a pker, you can lose you stats by 10%
This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind.
The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so.
In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
Mortal online is the game you are looking for. Its on open beta now, so go try it to see if it appeal to you. About the grind, there is no grind in MO. You simply play the game and you progress at a good pace. 1 thing, all rewards are at risk. There is no permanent rewards. Just like in DF, you lose your gears on death, but banks are local. Banks and inventory have a noticeable limited amount of space. By no reward are permanent, i meant to say that even on death as a pker, you can lose you stats by 10%
This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind.
The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so.
In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
MAybe i should had mentioned that in MO, you dont need to grind, but you can still compete on one vs one pvp even vs the vets.
Originally posted by Wharg0ul This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind. The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so. In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
MAybe i should had mentioned that in MO, you dont need to grind, but you can still compete on one vs one pvp even vs the vets.
Then perhaps it would be in all our best interest if MO eventually becomes successful. That way both types of players would have a place to call home. Personally I play one the many games in the sea of FPS titles if I want to go toe to toe with other players right off the bat. I play mmorpgs for different reasons altogether. But that's just me.
Originally posted by Wharg0ul This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind. The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so. In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
MAybe i should had mentioned that in MO, you dont need to grind, but you can still compete on one vs one pvp even vs the vets.
Then perhaps it would be in all our best interest if MO eventually becomes successful. That way both types of players would have a place to call home. Personally I play one the many games in the sea of FPS titles if I want to go toe to toe with other players right off the bat. I play mmorpgs for different reasons altogether. But that's just me.
Exactly. I like the feeling of progression, and having hard work pay off.
Edit: I wasn't aware that MO was stable enough to have any "vets" yet
I went from Darkfall EU to Global Agenda, and am now back in Darkfall US. They are essentially polar opposites in terms of pvp philosophy - In GA I can compete very quickly in fast paced adrenaline packed combat, in DF I am now a total noob getting raped at goblin spawns with likely 2 months of intensive gamplay ahead of me to develop a semi-decent build.
There you go, thanks for the cue.
That's the reason I am bored with people complaining about the grind in DF (obviously I am refferring to the OP) .
This people should not play DF, they would be better off with games with instant PVP gratification like Global Agenda or multiplayer games like Battlefield or COD.
I do not understand why some people insists playing DF, when obviously it wasn't designed that way.
DF is a real MMORPG with a real (or virtual) world, and the PvP is situational, it is not a fair PvP and you need to sweat blood before you can be competitive..............that's the way it is supposed to be, it is not a design flaw.
MAybe i should had mentioned that in MO, you dont need to grind, but you can still compete on one vs one pvp even vs the vets.
I've already suggested MO to OP few days ago. It seems to be perfect game for those who complain about DF - because Star Vault is doing exact opposite design choices than Aventurine:
Summonable mounts vs. stables, "grind" vs. fast skill gains + skill cap, predetermined house locations vs. almost unrestricted house building, twitch combat vs. slow combat, unconsensual war declarations vs. consensual war declarations, unrealistic, but useful loot vs. realistic loot, limited alignment effects vs. stat loss for reds, not thieves vs. thieves, "blue" night vs. pitch black night etc.
Star Vault is also more open than AV, and communicates with the community almost every day.
But when it comes to actual content or working game engine .... you can try free open beta and find out yourself.
Mortal online is the game you are looking for. Its on open beta now, so go try it to see if it appeal to you. About the grind, there is no grind in MO. You simply play the game and you progress at a good pace. 1 thing, all rewards are at risk. There is no permanent rewards. Just like in DF, you lose your gears on death, but banks are local. Banks and inventory have a noticeable limited amount of space. By no reward are permanent, i meant to say that even on death as a pker, you can lose you stats by 10%
This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind.
The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so.
In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
saying that darkfall was designed with no grind is absurd. The game is entirely about grind, outside of PVP. PVE becomes a mindless grind, because you repeat it over and over, the mobs are only skins and have slightly different abilities.
I played during launch for 3 months, and then from july til november of last year. The PVP is great, even though i was average at best as a pvper. The rest of the game revolves entirely around advancement, and quite simply the mechanics are so tedious that everyone gets burned out at some point.
I wont say DF is a bad game, because the changes they made on the NA server and changes to skill gains really helped alot. However, its a one dimensional game, that frankly has vast amounts of time where you as a player are bored.
I've got about 1,400 pve kills now after two weeks in the game (and yeah, you can quote me on that!), and I find it hard to believe that you guys with 5k kills aren't pvp viable.
I'm already really close to 2h mastery, I've got sharpshooter and archery up to like 80, I have greater magic at like 50 and witchcraft at like 30. Once I finish getting 2h mastery, I'll be focusing on magic, which will mean that I'll be killing less mobs per time spent because I'll be spamming a lot of buffs and debuffs.
What are your stats like, crittrockets and mmoluva? What are your skills like? Are you trying to get like 70 in stats or something before you attempt PVP?
Most people I've talked to that have max skills and almost max stats are BORED because there's little room for improvement.
Looks like you two are just going to spend months grinding on PVE mobs, get bored and quit, never having done PVP in a PVP-focused game.
This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind. The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so. In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
saying that darkfall was designed with no grind is absurd. The game is entirely about grind, outside of PVP. PVE becomes a mindless grind, because you repeat it over and over, the mobs are only skins and have slightly different abilities.
I played during launch for 3 months, and then from july til november of last year. The PVP is great, even though i was average at best as a pvper. The rest of the game revolves entirely around advancement, and quite simply the mechanics are so tedious that everyone gets burned out at some point.
I wont say DF is a bad game, because the changes they made on the NA server and changes to skill gains really helped alot. However, its a one dimensional game, that frankly has vast amounts of time where you as a player are bored.
Odd. I've played for almost a year, and I've NEVER been bored. Seriously, never.
The game was designed to have open-ended advancement.....so that even after you've played for a long time, you can still feel a sense of advancement. It wasn't MEANT to be done as quickly as possible.
It is the player mentality that turns it into a "grind". The "need" to advance as quickly as possible in order to "compete".
In other words....just because players feel the urge to grind, does NOT mean that the game was designed to be played that way.
And really, I dunno what you're on about saying all teh mobs are the same, with different "skins". You mean to tell me that an Akathar is the same as a goblin?? As a Minotaur?? As a troll?? A Dark Dragon? Or a Raven Standard??
It is the player mentality that turns it into a "grind".
Actually it's probably the fact that Darkfall is advertised as an "ultimate PvP" game. Most (95%+) players who choose it don't play games for PVE, and after the gloom realization that there is a huge PvE grind in store for anyone who wishes to enjoy PvP to its fullest sets in they do only what is logical...the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. The straight line in this case is the huge PVE grind. You could hopscotch around like a 2nd grader pretending to have fun doing quests and things of that like (anything but grinding) but it will only prolong the amount of time until you are able to enjoy the apparent point of the entire game, which is PvP.
This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind. The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so. In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
saying that darkfall was designed with no grind is absurd. The game is entirely about grind, outside of PVP. PVE becomes a mindless grind, because you repeat it over and over, the mobs are only skins and have slightly different abilities.
I played during launch for 3 months, and then from july til november of last year. The PVP is great, even though i was average at best as a pvper. The rest of the game revolves entirely around advancement, and quite simply the mechanics are so tedious that everyone gets burned out at some point.
I wont say DF is a bad game, because the changes they made on the NA server and changes to skill gains really helped alot. However, its a one dimensional game, that frankly has vast amounts of time where you as a player are bored.
Odd. I've played for almost a year, and I've NEVER been bored. Seriously, never.
The game was designed to have open-ended advancement.....so that even after you've played for a long time, you can still feel a sense of advancement. It wasn't MEANT to be done as quickly as possible.
It is the player mentality that turns it into a "grind". The "need" to advance as quickly as possible in order to "compete".
In other words....just because players feel the urge to grind, does NOT mean that the game was designed to be played that way.
And really, I dunno what you're on about saying all teh mobs are the same, with different "skins". You mean to tell me that an Akathar is the same as a goblin?? As a Minotaur?? As a troll?? A Dark Dragon? Or a Raven Standard??
Sorry, but I just don't see it.
I guess you just have a higher tolerance for it then most. Frankly, i joined darkfall to play and adventure in a pvp world, not to play whack a mole PVE so that i could compete. The truth is that darkfall only has 2 components to it, and thats PVP and everything you need to do to improve your charecter, which pretty much resolves around PVE or PVE like activities.
Anytime a game revolves around tedious repetitive action, you pretty much create a grind. As i stated before, killing mobs is the same, regardless of skins. The only actual difference between a goblin and a Raven Standard or elfwraith is the time you invest into killing it, and the reward you receive.
When you have a game that revolves around PVP and improving charecter advancement drastically improves your PVP abilities and potential, every single player who wants to play this game will do whatever it takes to improve. Given the time requirements and resource requirements that are nessicary, players will always take the path of least resistance which means they will do whatever it takes to advance the fastest in the least amount of time.
Almost every MMO out today has devolved to being based entirely around charecter development. The difference is most MMO's attempt to hide the "grind" behind layers of story or dungeons or other activities. Some do it well, like LOTRO and WoW. Some have diversity like EVE where you are not forced down one dimensional paths. Darkfall however does neither, and basically hits the player up front with the grind. Every individual has a ceiling they will not pass, sadly the majority of MMO players will never consider darkfall , and of that 20% that does, 15% will leave in a very short time frame due to the game mechanics.
The story pretty much repeats itself endlessly. Most new players jump into DFO and state its a great game , and they love it. After a certain time though, most will end up complaining about the game because they have no interest in being bored by repetitive actions to attempt to be competitive in the PVP areas of the game. Usually the time frame is around 2-5 months.
I guess you just have a higher tolerance for it then most. Frankly, i joined darkfall to play and adventure in a pvp world, not to play whack a mole PVE so that i could compete. The truth is that darkfall only has 2 components to it, and thats PVP and everything you need to do to improve your charecter, which pretty much resolves around PVE or PVE like activities. Anytime a game revolves around tedious repetitive action, you pretty much create a grind. As i stated before, killing mobs is the same, regardless of skins. The only actual difference between a goblin and a Raven Standard or elfwraith is the time you invest into killing it, and the reward you receive. When you have a game that revolves around PVP and improving charecter advancement drastically improves your PVP abilities and potential, every single player who wants to play this game will do whatever it takes to improve. Given the time requirements and resource requirements that are nessicary, players will always take the path of least resistance which means they will do whatever it takes to advance the fastest in the least amount of time. Almost every MMO out today has devolved to being based entirely around charecter development. The difference is most MMO's attempt to hide the "grind" behind layers of story or dungeons or other activities. Some do it well, like LOTRO and WoW. Some have diversity like EVE where you are not forced down one dimensional paths. Darkfall however does neither, and basically hits the player up front with the grind. Every individual has a ceiling they will not pass, sadly the majority of MMO players will never consider darkfall , and of that 20% that does, 15% will leave in a very short time frame due to the game mechanics. The story pretty much repeats itself endlessly. Most new players jump into DFO and state its a great game , and they love it. After a certain time though, most will end up complaining about the game because they have no interest in being bored by repetitive actions to attempt to be competitive in the PVP areas of the game. Usually the time frame is around 2-5 months.
I'm just going to respond to this, although , my response applies to Crittrockets as well.
How in the WORLD did you ever come to the assumption that in an MMORPG you would be able to defeat advanced characters right off the bat??
That's what it all boils down to.
You claim that "Almost every MMO out today has devolved to being based entirely around charecter development." , and yet this has ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, from the first pen and paper RPGs, to the modern MMORPGS. Character development is a defining factor in the RPG genre.
I ask again....when you KNOW beforehand that Darkfall is an mmoRPG, what makes you think you're going to be "uber" from day 1??
You then go on to say that "The difference is most MMO's attempt to hide the "grind" behind layers of story or dungeons or other activities. Some do it well, like LOTRO and WoW." And this makes me laugh, actually. If you like quest-grind based themepark games, then the answer is obvious....
Darkfall is not for you.
It is not an FPS. It is not a quest-grinder. It is a sandbox MMORPG which happens to INCLUDE PVP.
You've both managed to illustrate my point so very well. You want to be able to skip the character development, and get right into killing vets 1 on 1......and because you can't, you decide to try to make your way up to some non-existant "end game" as fast as possible.....in essence, making the decision to turn the game into a grind.
However, since the game isn't designed to be played this way, you're frustrated yet again.....and blame the game for your lack of understanding.
You want "ultimate PVP" where you're on even fotting with vets from day 1?? Try an FPS game. NO MMORPG will allow you to do this.
Someone seems to act like grinding quests or dungeons in WoW is different than grinding quests and mobs in DFO. You level in one and skill-up in the other. Both are done through PvE. Except in DFO you can be retarded and never change the mobs you skill-up on.
The only games which have been different are EvE and WaR. EvE uses a time based leveling system and WaR is an even more tedious grind through PvP intances (You get some variation every 10 levels).
I am unsure what you are complaining about. Either you don't want character development (and therefore diversity) and should be playing an FPS, or you are whining about he same cahracter development (PvE) that is done in every game and are too stupid to vary what you are doing to make it interesting.
Originally posted by Wharg0ul You then go on to say that "The difference is most MMO's attempt to hide the "grind" behind layers of story or dungeons or other activities. Some do it well, like LOTRO and WoW." And this makes me laugh, actually. If you like quest-grind based themepark games, then the answer is obvious.... Darkfall is not for you. It is not an FPS. It is not a quest-grinder. It is a sandbox MMORPG which happens to INCLUDE PVP.
because theres no questgiver to tell you : kill 400000 mobs and cut 10000000 trees and collect 400000 stones and kill 30000 players and make 200000 items.
that doesnt mean that its sandbox, if you ask me it looks like its more themepark than many other.
I've got about 1,400 pve kills now after two weeks in the game (and yeah, you can quote me on that!), and I find it hard to believe that you guys with 5k kills aren't pvp viable. I'm already really close to 2h mastery, I've got sharpshooter and archery up to like 80, I have greater magic at like 50 and witchcraft at like 30. Once I finish getting 2h mastery, I'll be focusing on magic, which will mean that I'll be killing less mobs per time spent because I'll be spamming a lot of buffs and debuffs. What are your stats like, crittrockets and mmoluva? What are your skills like? Are you trying to get like 70 in stats or something before you attempt PVP? Most people I've talked to that have max skills and almost max stats are BORED because there's little room for improvement. Looks like you two are just going to spend months grinding on PVE mobs, get bored and quit, never having done PVP in a PVP-focused game.
Lol your magic sucks at 50.. YOU HAVE A LONG LONG LONG LONG WAY to go.. 50 magic was good at launch.. you need 50 intensify.. oh man noobs crack me up. I have all magic schools at 100 and only 1 school with 50+ intensify and I've been playing since EU1 launch without macroing. My HP is only 290 too. I have 2 mastery's over 50 in 1h and 1 in 2h and archery at 100/100/100 and I'm still no where near the top end chars with 450 HP all self buffs surging all nukes surging, etc, etc.. you have just started the long long long grind to being PvP viable.. and if by viable you mean running around in a zerg being mostly worthless fodder then yea you're close to viable.
Lol your magic sucks at 50.. YOU HAVE A LONG LONG LONG LONG WAY to go.. 50 magic was good at launch.. you need 50 intensify.. oh man noobs crack me up. I have all magic schools at 100 and only 1 school with 50+ intensify and I've been playing since EU1 launch without macroing. My HP is only 290 too. I have 2 mastery's over 50 in 1h and 1 in 2h and archery at 100/100/100 and I'm still no where near the top end chars with 450 HP all self buffs surging all nukes surging, etc, etc.. you have just started the long long long grind to being PvP viable.. and if by viable you mean running around in a zerg being mostly worthless fodder then yea you're close to viable.
ummm.....if you onlly have 50 intensify in one school, and you've been playing since launch....and only 290 HP.....wtf have you been doing??
I know noobs in my clan that have been playing for two months that are further along than that.
Just because it takes you a year to get to where you think you are "almost PVP viable", does not mean that this is common.
Plus, there are other variables you have not mentioned. Do you only play for an hour each day?? only on weekends??
Originally posted by Wharg0ul You then go on to say that "The difference is most MMO's attempt to hide the "grind" behind layers of story or dungeons or other activities. Some do it well, like LOTRO and WoW." And this makes me laugh, actually. If you like quest-grind based themepark games, then the answer is obvious.... Darkfall is not for you. It is not an FPS. It is not a quest-grinder. It is a sandbox MMORPG which happens to INCLUDE PVP.
because theres no questgiver to tell you : kill 400000 mobs and cut 10000000 trees and collect 400000 stones and kill 30000 players and make 200000 items.
that doesnt mean that its sandbox, if you ask me it looks like its more themepark than many other.
Your post is very confusing. Do you mean to say that the freedom to go where you want and do what you want means the game is a themepark??
I never understood the saying Sandbox. Have you ever sat in a sandbox, its boring. In fact a sandbox is so boring a bucket and shovel become toys in it. Try offering a shovel and bucket to someone who is doing something fun they look at you like you are stupid.
Someone seems to act like grinding quests or dungeons in WoW is different than grinding quests and mobs in DFO. You level in one and skill-up in the other. Both are done through PvE. Except in DFO you can be retarded and never change the mobs you skill-up on.
The only games which have been different are EvE and WaR. EvE uses a time based leveling system and WaR is an even more tedious grind through PvP intances (You get some variation every 10 levels).
I am unsure what you are complaining about. Either you don't want character development (and therefore diversity) and should be playing an FPS, or you are whining about he same cahracter development (PvE) that is done in every game and are too stupid to vary what you are doing to make it interesting.
This man speaks the truth, but also by your definition all MMOS are a grind, even EVE with their time based leveling ends up being a grind to get X, on my personal definition (and of many people) grind usually involves doing the same thing for a long period of time within the same scenario.
I wouldnt really consider quests in WoW on the same lines, you are moving from area to area, changing the NPCs are you talking to, given different plots and different back stories, given different tasks and different mobs to kill, you are not looking at the same scenario every time and there are always different gimmicky quests that allow you to change playstyle and/or do something different.
In DF however you are on the same scenario on the same mob hours on end leveling your skills, even if you go PVP you end back on the same spot, that to me is a grind, the same it was in L2 and some other grinders out there.
Also to the above poster you do make a good point about sandbox, and this is one of the problems with DF is that there are no initial guidelines, no initial setting to where the world is, the world starts with nothing, there is no setting, there are these towns they are empty they mean nothing and they have no purpose.
EVE does it right tho, it gives you a setting it gives you something to play with and in the end it tells you where you can go and opens the possibilities for you to change the world and thats the only way a sandbox can be successfull in my eyes, is also the reason MO fails at the moment it also does not give you a startup, its like your thrown into this pre-historical society where no one knows whats going on or what to do but somehow there are towns and villages with amazing "technology" and fine art it just doesnt work.
People will keep saying "ohh but you make your own content" how can I make my own content?!, civilization doesnt evolve with me playing, technolgy doesnt improve there are a limited amount of tools they give you and thats it, you can only play around them, you can only build that type of wall, its not like one day you wake up in darkfall and decide your gonna build a fortress of the size of a small country or your gonna build the great wall of china around your territory those tools dont exist, you can use your imagination sure but the game doesnt provide the tools to do it, thats why you need to be put in some sort of context, maybe the time in which you are playing people havent discovered how to build great walls, maybe there is a struggle for resources and they can be wasted. They cant just drop you in the world and proclaim that "you make the content" because its just not true.
This man speaks the truth, but also by your definition all MMOS are a grind, even EVE with their time based leveling ends up being a grind to get X, on my personal definition (and of many people) grind usually involves doing the same thing for a long period of time within the same scenario. I wouldnt really consider quests in WoW on the same lines, you are moving from area to area, changing the NPCs are you talking to, given different plots and different back stories, given different tasks and different mobs to kill, you are not looking at the same scenario every time and there are always different gimmicky quests that allow you to change playstyle and/or do something different. Some of us consider quest grinding (IE, running back and forth to and from NPCs collecting various mob parts for rewards) to be absolutely PAINFUL. You may change zones/areas (designated by your level, and the level of the mobs within) but it's the same crap, area after area. You're still killing 20 bears, or boars, or wolves, or whatever...over and over and over again. It doesn't matter if there's a different scripted story to go along with the same monotonous task, especially if no one reads it and just clicks though it anyway. In DF however you are on the same scenario on the same mob hours on end leveling your skills, even if you go PVP you end back on the same spot, that to me is a grind, the same it was in L2 and some other grinders out there. Blatently untrue. There are literally DOZENS of mob types in the game (there's a list around here somewhere), and you can simply choose which ones to fight.....and where you want to fight them. You do NOT need to fight the same mob for hours, or in the same place. You have the freedom to do what you want. If you CHOOSE to sit in one place and grind the same mob for hours, that is YOUR choice! YOU chose to grind. Thing is, some people it seems (especially those with a themepark MMORPG background) seem to think they HAVE to grind....like it's what they are supposed to do. They lack the imagination to see past this, and fail to realise that how they spend their time in game is entirely up to them.
Edit: ah, you stealth edited your post while I was replying. I'll amend my reply.
You added:
"Also to the above poster you do make a good point about sandbox, and this is one of the problems with DF is that there are no initial guidelines, no initial setting to where the world is, the world starts with nothing, there is no setting, there are these towns they are empty they mean nothing and they have no purpose.
EVE does it right tho, it gives you a setting it gives you something to play with and in the end it tells you where you can go and opens the possibilities for you to change the world and thats the only way a sandbox can be successfull in my eyes, is also the reason MO fails at the moment it also does not give you a startup, its like your thrown into this pre-historical society where no one knows whats going on or what to do but somehow there are towns and villages with amazing "technology" and fine art it just doesnt work."
To which I reply:
Starter quests are in place in Darkfall....to give the player a way to get used to the controls and the world, and to get them out and exploring.
The "setting" of the game is a world besieged by clan warfare. It's not too hard to grasp, and as soon as you join a clan, and step into the "real game", you're drawn into it. No quests of guidelines are required....the simple act of being in the game is enough.
When I log in each day, I never know what kind of adventures I'm going to be swept off in. A group of clan mates could be killing things in one area, and I join them....suddenly a city is under attack, and we go to help....we meet an ambush party on the way, and realise that something big is going down....next thing I know, I'm in a pitched battle that rages across the sub-continent, from city to city, until we finally drive the invaders out.
Maybe then we go back to killing some mobs....maybe we head to the mainland, or over to ruby for some raiding of our own. Maybe I decide I've had enought fighting for the day, and go back to the city to craft for a while, or duel some clan-mates, or just gather some materials.
I don't need an NPC to tell me to do ANY of this.....the fun, and adventure happens simply by BEING there.
THIS is sandbox play.....player-driven content at it's finest. I'll take this over a day of obnoxious quest grinding any day.
This man speaks the truth, but also by your definition all MMOS are a grind, even EVE with their time based leveling ends up being a grind to get X, on my personal definition (and of many people) grind usually involves doing the same thing for a long period of time within the same scenario. I wouldnt really consider quests in WoW on the same lines, you are moving from area to area, changing the NPCs are you talking to, given different plots and different back stories, given different tasks and different mobs to kill, you are not looking at the same scenario every time and there are always different gimmicky quests that allow you to change playstyle and/or do something different. Some of us consider quest grinding (IE, running back and forth to and from NPCs collecting various mob parts for rewards) to be absolutely PAINFUL. You may change zones/areas (designated by your level, and the level of the mobs within) but it's the same crap, area after area. You're still killing 20 bears, or boars, or wolves, or whatever...over and over and over again. It doesn't matter if there's a different scripted story to go along with the same monotonous task, especially if no one reads it and just clicks though it anyway. In DF however you are on the same scenario on the same mob hours on end leveling your skills, even if you go PVP you end back on the same spot, that to me is a grind, the same it was in L2 and some other grinders out there. Blatently untrue. There are literally DOZENS of mob types in the game (there's a list around here somewhere), and you can simply choose which ones to fight.....and where you want to fight them. You do NOT need to fight the same mob for hours, or in the same place. You have the freedom to do what you want. If you CHOOSE to sit in one place and grind the same mob for hours, that is YOUR choice! YOU chose to grind. Thing is, some people it seems (especially those with a themepark MMORPG background) seem to think they HAVE to grind....like it's what they are supposed to do. They lack the imagination to see past this, and fail to realise that how they spend their time in game is entirely up to them.
I have edited my previous post that I think answers your question on imagination and the whole sandbox thing.
I just want to point out two things you said that to me are exactly the same:
"You may change zones/areas (designated by your level, and the level of the mobs within) but it's the same crap, area after area. You're still killing 20 bears, or boars, or wolves, or whatever...over and over and over again" Here you are saying that quests are a grind because you change area but you kill mobs either bears, boars or whatever mobs there are.
"There are literally DOZENS of mob types in the game (there's a list around here somewhere), and you can simply choose which ones to fight.....and where you want to fight them. You do NOT need to fight the same mob for hours, or in the same place. You have the freedom to do what you want." Then here you imply that there are DOZENS of mobs in DF and you can fight them wherever you want which sounds exactly what you said you hated about wow above fight "whatever mobs" on "different locations".
They lack the imagination to see past this, and fail to realise that how they spend their time in game is entirely up to them.
I would really like you to elaborate on this one, I really dont know what you are saying, its also entirely up to you what you do in WoW, you can stand around, you can run around, you can just sit on a rock and pretend your character is meditating but this wont improve your character, besides going to PVP (which you can also do in WoW), collect materials from crafting ( Which you can also do in WoW), craft stuff ( which you can also do in WoW) what else can do in darkfall that falls under the "entirely up to them" category that doesnt involve just standing around.
To me it seems you are like grasping at straws by that definition every MMO would be a sandbox, yeah you can jump, or just stand still, you can sit down, or you can move forward and backwards, you can just run round in a circle on tall grass and pretend your an alien and your making Crop circles. I really just want to understand what other tools are there to do something different that cant be done on every MMO by using your imagination as well.
This man speaks the truth, but also by your definition all MMOS are a grind, even EVE with their time based leveling ends up being a grind to get X, on my personal definition (and of many people) grind usually involves doing the same thing for a long period of time within the same scenario. I wouldnt really consider quests in WoW on the same lines, you are moving from area to area, changing the NPCs are you talking to, given different plots and different back stories, given different tasks and different mobs to kill, you are not looking at the same scenario every time and there are always different gimmicky quests that allow you to change playstyle and/or do something different. Some of us consider quest grinding (IE, running back and forth to and from NPCs collecting various mob parts for rewards) to be absolutely PAINFUL. You may change zones/areas (designated by your level, and the level of the mobs within) but it's the same crap, area after area. You're still killing 20 bears, or boars, or wolves, or whatever...over and over and over again. It doesn't matter if there's a different scripted story to go along with the same monotonous task, especially if no one reads it and just clicks though it anyway. In DF however you are on the same scenario on the same mob hours on end leveling your skills, even if you go PVP you end back on the same spot, that to me is a grind, the same it was in L2 and some other grinders out there. Blatently untrue. There are literally DOZENS of mob types in the game (there's a list around here somewhere), and you can simply choose which ones to fight.....and where you want to fight them. You do NOT need to fight the same mob for hours, or in the same place. You have the freedom to do what you want. If you CHOOSE to sit in one place and grind the same mob for hours, that is YOUR choice! YOU chose to grind. Thing is, some people it seems (especially those with a themepark MMORPG background) seem to think they HAVE to grind....like it's what they are supposed to do. They lack the imagination to see past this, and fail to realise that how they spend their time in game is entirely up to them.
I have edited my previous post that I think answers your question on imagination and the whole sandbox thing.
I just want to point out two things you said that to me are exactly the same:
"You may change zones/areas (designated by your level, and the level of the mobs within) but it's the same crap, area after area. You're still killing 20 bears, or boars, or wolves, or whatever...over and over and over again" Here you are saying that quests are a grind because you change area but you kill mobs either bears, boars or whatever mobs there are.
"There are literally DOZENS of mob types in the game (there's a list around here somewhere), and you can simply choose which ones to fight.....and where you want to fight them. You do NOT need to fight the same mob for hours, or in the same place. You have the freedom to do what you want." Then here you imply that there are DOZENS of mobs in DF and you can fight them wherever you want which sounds exactly what you said you hated about wow above fight "whatever mobs" on "different locations".
However, in a themepark game, the mobs you fight are pre-determined by the design and flow of the quest lines. They might toss in a new mob type, but for the most part it's the same 5 mobs you've been fighting since the tutorial quests. The area might look slightly different, but in essence you are doing the same quests, VS the same mobs, that you were from the beginning
In Darkfall, no one determines what you fight, or in what area. You are free to fight ANY of the mobs in the game, in any area of the world.
They lack the imagination to see past this, and fail to realise that how they spend their time in game is entirely up to them.
I would really like you to elaborate on this one, I really dont know what you are saying, its also entirely up to you what you do in WoW, you can stand around, you can run around, you can just sit on a rock and pretend your character is meditating but this wont improve your character, besides going to PVP (which you can also do in WoW), collect materials from crafting ( Which you can also do in WoW), craft stuff ( which you can also do in WoW) what else can do in darkfall that falls under the "entirely up to them" category that doesnt involve just standing around.
I think my edit above might clarify this for you.
I edited my above post to include a response to your edited post
Comments
1200 / 90 = Around 13 mobs per day. Is that a lot for you? That's around 30 minutes of PvE per day (and I've been playing 5+ hours per day). Please just give up, mmoluva.
Ultima Online 98~04
Dark Age of Camelot 03~07
Final Fantasy XI 04~06
Guild Wars 05~08
World of Warcraft 04~05
Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
Mortal online is the game you are looking for. Its on open beta now, so go try it to see if it appeal to you.
About the grind, there is no grind in MO. You simply play the game and you progress at a good pace. 1 thing, all rewards are at risk. There is no permanent rewards. Just like in DF, you lose your gears on death, but banks are local. Banks and inventory have a noticeable limited amount of space. By no reward are permanent, i meant to say that even on death as a pker, you can lose you stats by 10%
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
My advice to you is to stop grinding so much and enjoy the game...it is a video game afterall lol
Too many people only care about being tough asap (WoW anyone?) rather then playing the game it was meant to be played. I'm about 2-3months of playing Darkfall casually and just last night I pawnd a ganker trying to drop me at half health. Strength will come in time in Darkfall, grinding pve is only making it painfull to get there so whats the point? Take your time and do what you enjoying doing in the meantime...after 2.5months of Darkfall I still find plenty of things to do each night to mix it up ad make the overall skilling up process feal more fun. Who wouda knew MMORPGs were designed to be played rather then grinded...lol
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind.
The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so.
In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind.
The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so.
In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
MAybe i should had mentioned that in MO, you dont need to grind, but you can still compete on one vs one pvp even vs the vets.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
MAybe i should had mentioned that in MO, you dont need to grind, but you can still compete on one vs one pvp even vs the vets.
Then perhaps it would be in all our best interest if MO eventually becomes successful. That way both types of players would have a place to call home. Personally I play one the many games in the sea of FPS titles if I want to go toe to toe with other players right off the bat. I play mmorpgs for different reasons altogether. But that's just me.
MAybe i should had mentioned that in MO, you dont need to grind, but you can still compete on one vs one pvp even vs the vets.
Then perhaps it would be in all our best interest if MO eventually becomes successful. That way both types of players would have a place to call home. Personally I play one the many games in the sea of FPS titles if I want to go toe to toe with other players right off the bat. I play mmorpgs for different reasons altogether. But that's just me.
Exactly. I like the feeling of progression, and having hard work pay off.
Edit: I wasn't aware that MO was stable enough to have any "vets" yet
There you go, thanks for the cue.
That's the reason I am bored with people complaining about the grind in DF (obviously I am refferring to the OP) .
This people should not play DF, they would be better off with games with instant PVP gratification like Global Agenda or multiplayer games like Battlefield or COD.
I do not understand why some people insists playing DF, when obviously it wasn't designed that way.
DF is a real MMORPG with a real (or virtual) world, and the PvP is situational, it is not a fair PvP and you need to sweat blood before you can be competitive..............that's the way it is supposed to be, it is not a design flaw.
Move on already
I've already suggested MO to OP few days ago. It seems to be perfect game for those who complain about DF - because Star Vault is doing exact opposite design choices than Aventurine:
Summonable mounts vs. stables, "grind" vs. fast skill gains + skill cap, predetermined house locations vs. almost unrestricted house building, twitch combat vs. slow combat, unconsensual war declarations vs. consensual war declarations, unrealistic, but useful loot vs. realistic loot, limited alignment effects vs. stat loss for reds, not thieves vs. thieves, "blue" night vs. pitch black night etc.
Star Vault is also more open than AV, and communicates with the community almost every day.
But when it comes to actual content or working game engine .... you can try free open beta and find out yourself.
This is the way Darkfall was designed as well. PLAYERS choose to grind.
The system is much the same as Oblivion (Almost a rip-off, but I don't mind). Oblivion can be a "grind" as well, of you decide to have 100 destruction magic ASAP....you can chain-cast destruction spells until you get there....it will be boring, and tedious....a grind, in other words. But it is the player who chooses to do so.
In no case is it the game's fault that players decide to not be content with the gradual advancement that is the nature of skill-based games.
saying that darkfall was designed with no grind is absurd. The game is entirely about grind, outside of PVP. PVE becomes a mindless grind, because you repeat it over and over, the mobs are only skins and have slightly different abilities.
I played during launch for 3 months, and then from july til november of last year. The PVP is great, even though i was average at best as a pvper. The rest of the game revolves entirely around advancement, and quite simply the mechanics are so tedious that everyone gets burned out at some point.
I wont say DF is a bad game, because the changes they made on the NA server and changes to skill gains really helped alot. However, its a one dimensional game, that frankly has vast amounts of time where you as a player are bored.
I've got about 1,400 pve kills now after two weeks in the game (and yeah, you can quote me on that!), and I find it hard to believe that you guys with 5k kills aren't pvp viable.
I'm already really close to 2h mastery, I've got sharpshooter and archery up to like 80, I have greater magic at like 50 and witchcraft at like 30. Once I finish getting 2h mastery, I'll be focusing on magic, which will mean that I'll be killing less mobs per time spent because I'll be spamming a lot of buffs and debuffs.
What are your stats like, crittrockets and mmoluva? What are your skills like? Are you trying to get like 70 in stats or something before you attempt PVP?
Most people I've talked to that have max skills and almost max stats are BORED because there's little room for improvement.
Looks like you two are just going to spend months grinding on PVE mobs, get bored and quit, never having done PVP in a PVP-focused game.
saying that darkfall was designed with no grind is absurd. The game is entirely about grind, outside of PVP. PVE becomes a mindless grind, because you repeat it over and over, the mobs are only skins and have slightly different abilities.
I played during launch for 3 months, and then from july til november of last year. The PVP is great, even though i was average at best as a pvper. The rest of the game revolves entirely around advancement, and quite simply the mechanics are so tedious that everyone gets burned out at some point.
I wont say DF is a bad game, because the changes they made on the NA server and changes to skill gains really helped alot. However, its a one dimensional game, that frankly has vast amounts of time where you as a player are bored.
Odd. I've played for almost a year, and I've NEVER been bored. Seriously, never.
The game was designed to have open-ended advancement.....so that even after you've played for a long time, you can still feel a sense of advancement. It wasn't MEANT to be done as quickly as possible.
It is the player mentality that turns it into a "grind". The "need" to advance as quickly as possible in order to "compete".
In other words....just because players feel the urge to grind, does NOT mean that the game was designed to be played that way.
And really, I dunno what you're on about saying all teh mobs are the same, with different "skins". You mean to tell me that an Akathar is the same as a goblin?? As a Minotaur?? As a troll?? A Dark Dragon? Or a Raven Standard??
Sorry, but I just don't see it.
Actually it's probably the fact that Darkfall is advertised as an "ultimate PvP" game. Most (95%+) players who choose it don't play games for PVE, and after the gloom realization that there is a huge PvE grind in store for anyone who wishes to enjoy PvP to its fullest sets in they do only what is logical...the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. The straight line in this case is the huge PVE grind. You could hopscotch around like a 2nd grader pretending to have fun doing quests and things of that like (anything but grinding) but it will only prolong the amount of time until you are able to enjoy the apparent point of the entire game, which is PvP.
saying that darkfall was designed with no grind is absurd. The game is entirely about grind, outside of PVP. PVE becomes a mindless grind, because you repeat it over and over, the mobs are only skins and have slightly different abilities.
I played during launch for 3 months, and then from july til november of last year. The PVP is great, even though i was average at best as a pvper. The rest of the game revolves entirely around advancement, and quite simply the mechanics are so tedious that everyone gets burned out at some point.
I wont say DF is a bad game, because the changes they made on the NA server and changes to skill gains really helped alot. However, its a one dimensional game, that frankly has vast amounts of time where you as a player are bored.
Odd. I've played for almost a year, and I've NEVER been bored. Seriously, never.
The game was designed to have open-ended advancement.....so that even after you've played for a long time, you can still feel a sense of advancement. It wasn't MEANT to be done as quickly as possible.
It is the player mentality that turns it into a "grind". The "need" to advance as quickly as possible in order to "compete".
In other words....just because players feel the urge to grind, does NOT mean that the game was designed to be played that way.
And really, I dunno what you're on about saying all teh mobs are the same, with different "skins". You mean to tell me that an Akathar is the same as a goblin?? As a Minotaur?? As a troll?? A Dark Dragon? Or a Raven Standard??
Sorry, but I just don't see it.
I guess you just have a higher tolerance for it then most. Frankly, i joined darkfall to play and adventure in a pvp world, not to play whack a mole PVE so that i could compete. The truth is that darkfall only has 2 components to it, and thats PVP and everything you need to do to improve your charecter, which pretty much resolves around PVE or PVE like activities.
Anytime a game revolves around tedious repetitive action, you pretty much create a grind. As i stated before, killing mobs is the same, regardless of skins. The only actual difference between a goblin and a Raven Standard or elfwraith is the time you invest into killing it, and the reward you receive.
When you have a game that revolves around PVP and improving charecter advancement drastically improves your PVP abilities and potential, every single player who wants to play this game will do whatever it takes to improve. Given the time requirements and resource requirements that are nessicary, players will always take the path of least resistance which means they will do whatever it takes to advance the fastest in the least amount of time.
Almost every MMO out today has devolved to being based entirely around charecter development. The difference is most MMO's attempt to hide the "grind" behind layers of story or dungeons or other activities. Some do it well, like LOTRO and WoW. Some have diversity like EVE where you are not forced down one dimensional paths. Darkfall however does neither, and basically hits the player up front with the grind. Every individual has a ceiling they will not pass, sadly the majority of MMO players will never consider darkfall , and of that 20% that does, 15% will leave in a very short time frame due to the game mechanics.
The story pretty much repeats itself endlessly. Most new players jump into DFO and state its a great game , and they love it. After a certain time though, most will end up complaining about the game because they have no interest in being bored by repetitive actions to attempt to be competitive in the PVP areas of the game. Usually the time frame is around 2-5 months.
I'm just going to respond to this, although , my response applies to Crittrockets as well.
How in the WORLD did you ever come to the assumption that in an MMORPG you would be able to defeat advanced characters right off the bat??
That's what it all boils down to.
You claim that "Almost every MMO out today has devolved to being based entirely around charecter development." , and yet this has ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE, from the first pen and paper RPGs, to the modern MMORPGS. Character development is a defining factor in the RPG genre.
I ask again....when you KNOW beforehand that Darkfall is an mmoRPG, what makes you think you're going to be "uber" from day 1??
You then go on to say that "The difference is most MMO's attempt to hide the "grind" behind layers of story or dungeons or other activities. Some do it well, like LOTRO and WoW." And this makes me laugh, actually. If you like quest-grind based themepark games, then the answer is obvious....
Darkfall is not for you.
It is not an FPS. It is not a quest-grinder. It is a sandbox MMORPG which happens to INCLUDE PVP.
You've both managed to illustrate my point so very well. You want to be able to skip the character development, and get right into killing vets 1 on 1......and because you can't, you decide to try to make your way up to some non-existant "end game" as fast as possible.....in essence, making the decision to turn the game into a grind.
However, since the game isn't designed to be played this way, you're frustrated yet again.....and blame the game for your lack of understanding.
You want "ultimate PVP" where you're on even fotting with vets from day 1?? Try an FPS game. NO MMORPG will allow you to do this.
Someone seems to act like grinding quests or dungeons in WoW is different than grinding quests and mobs in DFO. You level in one and skill-up in the other. Both are done through PvE. Except in DFO you can be retarded and never change the mobs you skill-up on.
The only games which have been different are EvE and WaR. EvE uses a time based leveling system and WaR is an even more tedious grind through PvP intances (You get some variation every 10 levels).
I am unsure what you are complaining about. Either you don't want character development (and therefore diversity) and should be playing an FPS, or you are whining about he same cahracter development (PvE) that is done in every game and are too stupid to vary what you are doing to make it interesting.
because theres no questgiver to tell you : kill 400000 mobs and cut 10000000 trees and collect 400000 stones and kill 30000 players and make 200000 items.
that doesnt mean that its sandbox, if you ask me it looks like its more themepark than many other.
Generation P
Lol your magic sucks at 50.. YOU HAVE A LONG LONG LONG LONG WAY to go.. 50 magic was good at launch.. you need 50 intensify.. oh man noobs crack me up. I have all magic schools at 100 and only 1 school with 50+ intensify and I've been playing since EU1 launch without macroing. My HP is only 290 too. I have 2 mastery's over 50 in 1h and 1 in 2h and archery at 100/100/100 and I'm still no where near the top end chars with 450 HP all self buffs surging all nukes surging, etc, etc.. you have just started the long long long grind to being PvP viable.. and if by viable you mean running around in a zerg being mostly worthless fodder then yea you're close to viable.
ummm.....if you onlly have 50 intensify in one school, and you've been playing since launch....and only 290 HP.....wtf have you been doing??
I know noobs in my clan that have been playing for two months that are further along than that.
Just because it takes you a year to get to where you think you are "almost PVP viable", does not mean that this is common.
Plus, there are other variables you have not mentioned. Do you only play for an hour each day?? only on weekends??
because theres no questgiver to tell you : kill 400000 mobs and cut 10000000 trees and collect 400000 stones and kill 30000 players and make 200000 items.
that doesnt mean that its sandbox, if you ask me it looks like its more themepark than many other.
Your post is very confusing. Do you mean to say that the freedom to go where you want and do what you want means the game is a themepark??
I fail to see any kind of logic at work here.
I never understood the saying Sandbox. Have you ever sat in a sandbox, its boring. In fact a sandbox is so boring a bucket and shovel become toys in it. Try offering a shovel and bucket to someone who is doing something fun they look at you like you are stupid.
This man speaks the truth, but also by your definition all MMOS are a grind, even EVE with their time based leveling ends up being a grind to get X, on my personal definition (and of many people) grind usually involves doing the same thing for a long period of time within the same scenario.
I wouldnt really consider quests in WoW on the same lines, you are moving from area to area, changing the NPCs are you talking to, given different plots and different back stories, given different tasks and different mobs to kill, you are not looking at the same scenario every time and there are always different gimmicky quests that allow you to change playstyle and/or do something different.
In DF however you are on the same scenario on the same mob hours on end leveling your skills, even if you go PVP you end back on the same spot, that to me is a grind, the same it was in L2 and some other grinders out there.
Also to the above poster you do make a good point about sandbox, and this is one of the problems with DF is that there are no initial guidelines, no initial setting to where the world is, the world starts with nothing, there is no setting, there are these towns they are empty they mean nothing and they have no purpose.
EVE does it right tho, it gives you a setting it gives you something to play with and in the end it tells you where you can go and opens the possibilities for you to change the world and thats the only way a sandbox can be successfull in my eyes, is also the reason MO fails at the moment it also does not give you a startup, its like your thrown into this pre-historical society where no one knows whats going on or what to do but somehow there are towns and villages with amazing "technology" and fine art it just doesnt work.
People will keep saying "ohh but you make your own content" how can I make my own content?!, civilization doesnt evolve with me playing, technolgy doesnt improve there are a limited amount of tools they give you and thats it, you can only play around them, you can only build that type of wall, its not like one day you wake up in darkfall and decide your gonna build a fortress of the size of a small country or your gonna build the great wall of china around your territory those tools dont exist, you can use your imagination sure but the game doesnt provide the tools to do it, thats why you need to be put in some sort of context, maybe the time in which you are playing people havent discovered how to build great walls, maybe there is a struggle for resources and they can be wasted. They cant just drop you in the world and proclaim that "you make the content" because its just not true.
Edit: ah, you stealth edited your post while I was replying. I'll amend my reply.
You added:
"Also to the above poster you do make a good point about sandbox, and this is one of the problems with DF is that there are no initial guidelines, no initial setting to where the world is, the world starts with nothing, there is no setting, there are these towns they are empty they mean nothing and they have no purpose.
EVE does it right tho, it gives you a setting it gives you something to play with and in the end it tells you where you can go and opens the possibilities for you to change the world and thats the only way a sandbox can be successfull in my eyes, is also the reason MO fails at the moment it also does not give you a startup, its like your thrown into this pre-historical society where no one knows whats going on or what to do but somehow there are towns and villages with amazing "technology" and fine art it just doesnt work."
To which I reply:
Starter quests are in place in Darkfall....to give the player a way to get used to the controls and the world, and to get them out and exploring.
The "setting" of the game is a world besieged by clan warfare. It's not too hard to grasp, and as soon as you join a clan, and step into the "real game", you're drawn into it. No quests of guidelines are required....the simple act of being in the game is enough.
When I log in each day, I never know what kind of adventures I'm going to be swept off in. A group of clan mates could be killing things in one area, and I join them....suddenly a city is under attack, and we go to help....we meet an ambush party on the way, and realise that something big is going down....next thing I know, I'm in a pitched battle that rages across the sub-continent, from city to city, until we finally drive the invaders out.
Maybe then we go back to killing some mobs....maybe we head to the mainland, or over to ruby for some raiding of our own. Maybe I decide I've had enought fighting for the day, and go back to the city to craft for a while, or duel some clan-mates, or just gather some materials.
I don't need an NPC to tell me to do ANY of this.....the fun, and adventure happens simply by BEING there.
THIS is sandbox play.....player-driven content at it's finest. I'll take this over a day of obnoxious quest grinding any day.
I have edited my previous post that I think answers your question on imagination and the whole sandbox thing.
I just want to point out two things you said that to me are exactly the same:
"You may change zones/areas (designated by your level, and the level of the mobs within) but it's the same crap, area after area. You're still killing 20 bears, or boars, or wolves, or whatever...over and over and over again" Here you are saying that quests are a grind because you change area but you kill mobs either bears, boars or whatever mobs there are.
"There are literally DOZENS of mob types in the game (there's a list around here somewhere), and you can simply choose which ones to fight.....and where you want to fight them. You do NOT need to fight the same mob for hours, or in the same place. You have the freedom to do what you want." Then here you imply that there are DOZENS of mobs in DF and you can fight them wherever you want which sounds exactly what you said you hated about wow above fight "whatever mobs" on "different locations".
They lack the imagination to see past this, and fail to realise that how they spend their time in game is entirely up to them.
I would really like you to elaborate on this one, I really dont know what you are saying, its also entirely up to you what you do in WoW, you can stand around, you can run around, you can just sit on a rock and pretend your character is meditating but this wont improve your character, besides going to PVP (which you can also do in WoW), collect materials from crafting ( Which you can also do in WoW), craft stuff ( which you can also do in WoW) what else can do in darkfall that falls under the "entirely up to them" category that doesnt involve just standing around.
To me it seems you are like grasping at straws by that definition every MMO would be a sandbox, yeah you can jump, or just stand still, you can sit down, or you can move forward and backwards, you can just run round in a circle on tall grass and pretend your an alien and your making Crop circles. I really just want to understand what other tools are there to do something different that cant be done on every MMO by using your imagination as well.
I have edited my previous post that I think answers your question on imagination and the whole sandbox thing.
I just want to point out two things you said that to me are exactly the same:
"You may change zones/areas (designated by your level, and the level of the mobs within) but it's the same crap, area after area. You're still killing 20 bears, or boars, or wolves, or whatever...over and over and over again" Here you are saying that quests are a grind because you change area but you kill mobs either bears, boars or whatever mobs there are.
"There are literally DOZENS of mob types in the game (there's a list around here somewhere), and you can simply choose which ones to fight.....and where you want to fight them. You do NOT need to fight the same mob for hours, or in the same place. You have the freedom to do what you want." Then here you imply that there are DOZENS of mobs in DF and you can fight them wherever you want which sounds exactly what you said you hated about wow above fight "whatever mobs" on "different locations".
However, in a themepark game, the mobs you fight are pre-determined by the design and flow of the quest lines. They might toss in a new mob type, but for the most part it's the same 5 mobs you've been fighting since the tutorial quests. The area might look slightly different, but in essence you are doing the same quests, VS the same mobs, that you were from the beginning
In Darkfall, no one determines what you fight, or in what area. You are free to fight ANY of the mobs in the game, in any area of the world.
They lack the imagination to see past this, and fail to realise that how they spend their time in game is entirely up to them.
I would really like you to elaborate on this one, I really dont know what you are saying, its also entirely up to you what you do in WoW, you can stand around, you can run around, you can just sit on a rock and pretend your character is meditating but this wont improve your character, besides going to PVP (which you can also do in WoW), collect materials from crafting ( Which you can also do in WoW), craft stuff ( which you can also do in WoW) what else can do in darkfall that falls under the "entirely up to them" category that doesnt involve just standing around.
I think my edit above might clarify this for you.
I edited my above post to include a response to your edited post
I also responded to this one (in blue).