There is a mind boggling amount of possibilities that this game can take its direction. Then again…this wouldn’t be the first game with such an opportunity to not do so well…(Warhammer Online) Don’t get me wrong, WAR was fun and all, but there’s just hardly any players and the end game became musical castles…not fun. Perhaps, the bigger the opportunity, the larger the possibility of not fullfilling that opportunity. I hope they get it really really right this time around.
I haven't seen this discussed yet, and I know very little about the WAR40k universe, so here's a question for you guys: What about mounts? Do they have them in 40k lore? Are they in the form of big transportation, like spaceships, or more personal like steeds, chariots or badass futuristic bikes?
They have ways to get to and from the battlefield. Some units within each faction tend to employ "mounts" as their main weapon like the galaxy famous White Scars(Think massive AT-Bikes) or Saim-Hann(Think flying Anti-Grav bikes) while they tend to be just specific units in various armies like Necron Destroyers, Space Marine Scout bikes, Eldar Shining Spears and so on.
Could they be used in game? I dunno. Maybe but I would rather have the ability to paint my armor than get a mount at the end of the day.
1. Equal content across the board, don't make PvP the focus of the game, if you want that, there are hundreds Scifi FPS games out there for those types of players, PvP, PvE, Crafting, Socializing should be available from lvl 1 to end content. I would like to see the game start small and make it good, then expand as necessary for all content
2. Atleast 3 factions. Mine would be:
Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar
Tyranids, Necrons, Tau
Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Dark Eldar
"Enemy of my enemy" that sort of thing. (I know it goes against cannon) but you have to have sides. It will not happen but I can hope.
3. Squad based characters You are the Sergeant and you have npc squad that you command. Each race would have different sizes of squads to help with balancing issues. Having 20 Space marine Commanders running in circles, in PvP would just be wrong
4. Dynamic content. Theme parks need to go away, make the player base make the decisions in the game.
5. Sandbox style laterial skill tree advancement. Pick a race and then start learning how to use skills/ weapons/ equipment and troops. Basically no lvls or classes. Learn what you want to learn for your type of game play.
also Friendly Fire = Free for all PvP so a huge NO on that one.
I hope they balance things out. I would hate to see 10k Space Marines running around bunny hopping firing meltas all day....It just doesnt fit. I also hope if they do a ranking system they cap how many people can have a certain rank. You would never see 5k Lord Militant Generals running around in one battle power fists swinging. You dont have a company of chapter masters fighting in a battle.. And to have a 40k game without the Imperial Guard would be a shame. I mean genetic augmentations and fancy armor are for (expletives). They do all the grunt work and SM's take all the credit. Space Marines should be the end all be all if anything. They are picked from a handful of planets to, only a few dozen chapters. I forgot how many chapters there are with second foundings and all the chapters created from the original legions when they were split apart. They should be the jedi of 40k. The marines and Inquisitors should be end game classes which are feared and respected everywhere. There is so much fluff in 40k to deal with... I just hope they dont lump all the factions into a few buckets with some arcane wierd seperate reality plot twist in which Dark Eldar, Orks and Chaos are buddies hanging out in the eye of terror looking for group. As long as I can play Imperial Guard or a Space Puppy Ill be happy either way....I just have high hopes I can shoot a lot green skins and some fish heads.
Space Marines DO NOT BUNNY HOP! EVER! End of rant.....
Hi all. I have been reading a great many posts under this topic, and I think we should set the record straight here.
Warhammer 40K is about squad level combat. Beginning and end of statement. You want individual characters, go play Inquisitor. The true issue is of BALANCE.
I have played Warhammer Online, and anyone who has played it for any length of time (more than 10 minutes in Nordenwatch)knows thats it is as unbalanced as it gets. I mean, let's be honest, Destro was way stronger than Order.
Lets look at the way a 40K squad is "puchased". We will use Space Marines here because everybody is familiar with them. With a Space Marine squad you get 5 Marines for so many points, call it 150. This includes a sergeant (you) and 4 troops, no upgrades or frills. Good Armor, standard weapon is the Bolter. Not the greatest weapon when moving (reduced range when moving), but deadly when a Marine can plant his feet and blaze away (Rapid Fire). For the same 150pts in the Eldar Codex you can get 10 guardians, but be able to upgrade to Black Guardians(better shooting with longer range weapons) and an Exarch (sergeant, again this is you). The balance here is that the Eldar are Fast and Fragile and can't stand up in a prolonged firefight. They rely on movement and faster shooting weapons (For those who don't know, Assault weapons always shoot same range, same number of shots) . For Orks (dear lord) which are only 4pts in the table top game compared to the Space Marines 15pts you now outnumber the Marines 3 to 1, even with a Nob (you). The balance here is that Orks suck at shooting but excell in Melee. So the number of Orks that survive the charge are at least equal to the five Marines.
I have been recently been playing STO, and I have found the Ground combat to be pretty ok. Not great, just ok. They rushed it. My squadmates are dumb as dirt, no real pathfinding to speak of, run ahead of me and get shot up; but the idea of fighting with a squad that I have "trained" and lead into combat appeals to me, just as it does to a great many of you.
Now I know you guys are gonna rip me up and down over this post. That's fine by me. This could be the greatest game yet.
Hi all. I have been reading a great many posts under this topic, and I think we should set the record straight here. Warhammer 40K is about squad level combat. Beginning and end of statement. You want individual characters, go play Inquisitor. The true issue is of BALANCE. I have played Warhammer Online, and anyone who has played it for any length of time (more than 10 minutes in Nordenwatch)knows thats it is as unbalanced as it gets. I mean, let's be honest, Destro was way stronger than Order. Lets look at the way a 40K squad is "puchased". We will use Space Marines here because everybody is familiar with them. With a Space Marine squad you get 5 Marines for so many points, call it 150. This includes a sergeant (you) and 4 troops, no upgrades or frills. Good Armor, standard weapon is the Bolter. Not the greatest weapon when moving (reduced range when moving), but deadly when a Marine can plant his feet and blaze away (Rapid Fire). For the same 150pts in the Eldar Codex you can get 10 guardians, but be able to upgrade to Black Guardians(better shooting with longer range weapons) and an Exarch (sergeant, again this is you). The balance here is that the Eldar are Fast and Fragile and can't stand up in a prolonged firefight. They rely on movement and faster shooting weapons (For those who don't know, Assault weapons always shoot same range, same number of shots) . For Orks (dear lord) which are only 4pts in the table top game compared to the Space Marines 15pts you now outnumber the Marines 3 to 1, even with a Nob (you). The balance here is that Orks suck at shooting but excell in Melee. So the number of Orks that survive the charge are at least equal to the five Marines. I have been recently been playing STO, and I have found the Ground combat to be pretty ok. Not great, just ok. They rushed it. My squadmates are dumb as dirt, no real pathfinding to speak of, run ahead of me and get shot up; but the idea of fighting with a squad that I have "trained" and lead into combat appeals to me, just as it does to a great many of you. Now I know you guys are gonna rip me up and down over this post. That's fine by me. This could be the greatest game yet.
Since when do Eldar Guardian Squads have Exarchs?
And no, Warhammer 40k is not about squad level combat. Dawn of War 2 might be about squad level combat, but by no means is Warhammer 40k on a squad level unless its in Kill Teams.
Balancing based on a squad and balancing based on Individuals boils down to the same damn thing, so no need to try and pull the veil down and try to make sound obscure. Whats the difference between a squad of big tough guys, and a single individual tough guy except numbers?
The MMO isn't going to be broken down into 3 phases where you move, shoot, then assault.
This should not be Dawn of War 2 in MMO format.
When you assume the Identity of a character in the game, you become SOMEONE. You are no longer an extra or just another number. Leave that 3 Orks to 1 marine crap to the NPCs. Let them flesh out the feeling of the environment. Hell, let it be like dynasty warriors where you're 1 among many, up against overwhelming odds. But the moment you take control of a squad of characters instead of personalizing your avatar, you take the character out of being a character. You're no longer experiencing the world. You're just a hand hovering over it, directing orders.
Or does it really come down to the mighty space marines not wanting to get smacked around 1 on 1 by an Ork or Eldar Guardian?
As much as I love the Fluff in the Warhammer 40k universe, it's not something to hide behind when it comes to game balancing. Look at the Translation from Fluff to Tabletop. 1 SM vs 50 Orcs (Fluff) compared to 1 Sm vs 2-3 Orcs, Tabletop. 1 on 1 balance is just taking it another step further and makes the engagement more personal.
When you're behind your character, you're not just another NPC. I don't care if it is 2 Guardians or 5 orks to 1 Space Marine in NPC fights and thats a fair fight for them. You can have them coming in waves in the background or even all around you, that's great. Players should be exceptions to that.
I hope they do what feels heroic and engaging.
No matter how you cut it, Players will always feel for themselves. From a Space marine point of view, sure, being 1 person against 3-4 guys is pretty awesome. But how would you feel if you're one of those 3 to 4 guys getting slagged? How would you feel if you brought your squad of 6 guys up against 2 SMs and got wasted time and time again? That's how people will feel and see it. They will see their squad dying while struggling to knock off even 1 Space Marine, get frustrated and quit.
And that same logic would turn against Space marines if Necron were introduced as playable, as they're superior one on one to Space marines in just about every way there is.
Balance for 1 on 1. My apologies for redundant thoughts.
Hi all. I have been reading a great many posts under this topic, and I think we should set the record straight here. Warhammer 40K is about squad level combat. Beginning and end of statement. You want individual characters, go play Inquisitor. The true issue is of BALANCE. I have played Warhammer Online, and anyone who has played it for any length of time (more than 10 minutes in Nordenwatch)knows thats it is as unbalanced as it gets. I mean, let's be honest, Destro was way stronger than Order. Lets look at the way a 40K squad is "puchased". We will use Space Marines here because everybody is familiar with them. With a Space Marine squad you get 5 Marines for so many points, call it 150. This includes a sergeant (you) and 4 troops, no upgrades or frills. Good Armor, standard weapon is the Bolter. Not the greatest weapon when moving (reduced range when moving), but deadly when a Marine can plant his feet and blaze away (Rapid Fire). For the same 150pts in the Eldar Codex you can get 10 guardians, but be able to upgrade to Black Guardians(better shooting with longer range weapons) and an Exarch (sergeant, again this is you). The balance here is that the Eldar are Fast and Fragile and can't stand up in a prolonged firefight. They rely on movement and faster shooting weapons (For those who don't know, Assault weapons always shoot same range, same number of shots) . For Orks (dear lord) which are only 4pts in the table top game compared to the Space Marines 15pts you now outnumber the Marines 3 to 1, even with a Nob (you). The balance here is that Orks suck at shooting but excell in Melee. So the number of Orks that survive the charge are at least equal to the five Marines. I have been recently been playing STO, and I have found the Ground combat to be pretty ok. Not great, just ok. They rushed it. My squadmates are dumb as dirt, no real pathfinding to speak of, run ahead of me and get shot up; but the idea of fighting with a squad that I have "trained" and lead into combat appeals to me, just as it does to a great many of you. Now I know you guys are gonna rip me up and down over this post. That's fine by me. This could be the greatest game yet.
Well, that would be *great*... Except for the fact that damn few MMO companies can do path finding, or even *basic* NPC squad level tactics half right. What we are likely to end up with is a typical MMO with individual players in most of the roles(different classes). NPC GAI is *quite* difficult, and there are only a few specialists(out side of university research and development groups) that are even close to doing the basics. Until that field is further developed, we are going to have to settle for what we have.
Bioware had some excellent pathing in Mass Effect 2, and they really put a lot into it, and it was still a bit wonky. For an MMO, that could be quite terrible.
The other thing is that I love being a unique snowflake, as dumb as that sounds. And when I have to split it up among several characters at the same time, I find that it takes away from the experience.
Unless your comrades are more like Pets in other games. Where they're basically just another source for abilities and you are the main one. That could work I guess. But seems really redundant.
*sigh* while I love the 40K IP, I have to say I'm really nervous regarding this MMO....
The biggest problem is the massive lore-rape that will have to go down if they want to make Marines a playable "race". But seeing as EVERYBODY loves marines (famous Tabletop 40K saying: all kids play marines) they'll probably have to include them to make all the shrimp happy...
let's look at the lore facts for a moment:
A Space Marine is a 7ft tall, genetically enhanced mumakil on steroids.
A Space Marine is incredibly devout. No fear of death and all...
To prevent a 2nd Heresy incident, there are only 1000 Marines in each Chapter (although Blackies, Salas and Wolves don't give a shit about this one) and there are roughly 1000 Chapters... meaning 1.000.000 Space Marines roaming through the galaxy (Scouts, Servitors and all that doesn't count)
just as a point of comparison, that is about 3 times the headcount of the current german armed forces...
Space Marines are fighting machines. Each individual Space Marines capable of blasting dozens of enemies on his own before going down.
Space Marines are not trained farmboys. Space Marines are bred from the genepool of their chapter (which is 1 part ChapterLeader, 1 part Emperor and 1 part violence) Space Marines don't hang out in bars to relax. They don't socialize
So... after these facts how can Space Marines be in this MMO? two ways:
1. Everyone is a Space Marine! We go around in Squads and kill Xenos. Weeeee! And the motivation behind going around and killing them? BECAUSE THEY'RE XENOS! Think Tabula Rasa without Guild Fights... fuuuuuuuun -.-
2. You can play all kinds of races including Marines but for balance reasons Marines have to be just as strong as an IG Soldier or a Tau Fire Warrior... this would probably work gameplay wise but it would rape the IP to death.... remember: there is just 1 million marines out there!
Basically, if Marines are in the game, it's gonna suck... Then again I'm probably the only person who thinks it's way cooler playing Albert Average than Paul Pwnlord and everybody else loves Marines so much that you don't even ask these questions. Basically same thing that's going on over in the "Opiwahn was killed by a Giant Rat" department
Imho a way better 40K MMO would have been one on a Hive World where you play "more human like" stuff like Adeptus Arbites Enforcers, Gangers and aspiring Ordo Malleus/Ordo Hereticum Agents ala Inquisitor... lots of possibilities to be had with that...
This is not trolling btw... As I said I'm a big fan of the 40K IP
<S.T.E.A.L.T.H> An Agency that kicks so much ass it has to be written in all capital letters... divided by dots! www.stealth-industries.de
Honestly, I think if they go the route of trying to make the MMO like the wargame, the game is going to fail, in an epic way.
Sure, theres a faction or two already pre-built, the Imperium (so xenophobic they devoted an entire branch of the Inquisition, lets see how well they do a long term alliance wityh xenos scum) and the Tau empire (who will work with anyone who is willing to accept the whole greater good thing). Necron's don't talk to people, they just lay the groundwork for the C'tan to eat, Nids just eat everything in sight, Orks aren't to big on alliances (they just wanna fight) and the Eldar are...well, Eldar and Chaos is, well, Chaos. All in all, no easy way to balance any kind of factional thing if your looking at the point of view of keeping it warfare based like the wargame(plenty of folks have brought up the space marines, and for them, as well as a couple other races (Tau, Eldar) its just as bad in terms of free will/time/power scale)
Honestly, I hope they take a page from Fantasy Flight Games, Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are both good ways to get a 40k feel, without having to add in all the seriously complicated issues of "now how d we balance a space marine versus a regular human, or god forbid a regular tau?" They do that, I think they'd be on the right track, take a cue from CCP on doing a sandbox world (EVE is gravy that way, althoughI'm not suggesting an EVE clone) and give players more freedom and less restrictions, mix in a good dose of basic storyline, pick a corner of the galaxy that see's alot of action, and let her rip, and I think they's be doing just fine. As long as they don't jack with the lore...after almost 16 years of playing the game, and reading the lore, and even working for GW at one point, last thing I want is a few 'minor' revisions to lore (like, oh, say how space marines go from being normal goobs to superhuman killing machines just so little timmy doesn't cry because he can't be a smurf)
As much as I would love a 40K MMO, I don't think any developer could make a game that will not violate tons and tons of background fluff for game balance.
The only exception would be to do an Inquisition or Rogue Trader style game where players only see and interact with tiny portions of the galaxy and its factions. An encounter with a space marine should be a deadly affair for a whole party of adventures.
Lowly humans working with out cast aliens in border regions avoiding or helping the human Inquisition. Trading among aliens far from the view of Imperial masters. Seeking ancient artifacts and staying away from authorities who would take your hard won trophies.
Misfits of various races working together for survival. That would work.
But JOE BOB of the Ultramarines is only going to work with other space marines unless forced to do so by his superiors.
No a good dynamic.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
I dont' think it'll be too difficult to balance the game on an individual level. As someone mentioned above. Everyone wants to be a unique snowflake. I'm no exception to that.
lets take a look at how troops can be balanced.
The Space Marines: The Imperium of Man's finest. The angels of death.
Space Marines Scouts. Space marine initiates. Their implants haven't fully developed and their carapace is still hardening, and thus can't wear heavy space marine armor. We'll say these guys are Tier 1.
Tactical Space Marines. They're genetically bred killing machines in really big armor. he's strong and tough and has some great armor. Good hand to hand and ranged combat. Jack of all trades, Master of none. We'll say they're Tier 2 Troops.
Lets compare them to the Eldar, for ease of reference.
Eldar: [booming voice]Elves In Spaaaaaaaaaaaace.[/booming voice]. Actually more like Ninja Elves in Space.
Eldar Guardian - Eldar Civilians tossed in armor and trained as a militia. Not as Strong and Tough as Space Marine Scouts, but have a speed advantage. Are cheaper in Table Top. Tier 1.
Eldar Dire Avenger - Led the Phoenix Lord Asuryen and follow the path of the Warrior. Superior to Guardians in every way with greater weapons, training and armor. Not as strong or tough as Space Marines, but are faster, and their default weapons allow them to fire on the run. Tier 2.
If characters progressed through a Tiered system, it wouldn't be too difficult to balance the various opposing characters. If it's level based, maybe levels 1-10 are Tier 1, 11-25 are tier 2, 26-40 tier 3, etc.. etc.. etc..
They could balance the tiers against each other. So a Space marine could smack around some guardians, but would have a much more difficult time against a Dire Avenger, etc..
Honestly, I think if they go the route of trying to make the MMO like the wargame, the game is going to fail, in an epic way.
Sure, theres a faction or two already pre-built, the Imperium (so xenophobic they devoted an entire branch of the Inquisition, lets see how well they do a long term alliance wityh xenos scum) and the Tau empire (who will work with anyone who is willing to accept the whole greater good thing). Necron's don't talk to people, they just lay the groundwork for the C'tan to eat, Nids just eat everything in sight, Orks aren't to big on alliances (they just wanna fight) and the Eldar are...well, Eldar and Chaos is, well, Chaos. All in all, no easy way to balance any kind of factional thing if your looking at the point of view of keeping it warfare based like the wargame(plenty of folks have brought up the space marines, and for them, as well as a couple other races (Tau, Eldar) its just as bad in terms of free will/time/power scale)
Honestly, I hope they take a page from Fantasy Flight Games, Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are both good ways to get a 40k feel, without having to add in all the seriously complicated issues of "now how d we balance a space marine versus a regular human, or god forbid a regular tau?" They do that, I think they'd be on the right track, take a cue from CCP on doing a sandbox world (EVE is gravy that way, althoughI'm not suggesting an EVE clone) and give players more freedom and less restrictions, mix in a good dose of basic storyline, pick a corner of the galaxy that see's alot of action, and let her rip, and I think they's be doing just fine. As long as they don't jack with the lore...after almost 16 years of playing the game, and reading the lore, and even working for GW at one point, last thing I want is a few 'minor' revisions to lore (like, oh, say how space marines go from being normal goobs to superhuman killing machines just so little timmy doesn't cry because he can't be a smurf)
You make some excellent points... But the fact remains that sand box games have demonstrated a tendency to niche themselves in the west. The more freedom and less restrictions there are, the more the game becomes a haven for gankers and griefers. That is NOT good for a companies business model. Look at the evolution of Concord in Eve Online as just one example of how these things naturally work out.
Personally, I'd not wish to be the one attempting to make the major design decisions in this game. Just about anything you do will alienate some part of the fan base. Not to mention having to hand hold the investors/publisher once the initial wave of players starts to fade out. Eve has the hard bought luxury of looking at the long haul. The vast majority of games lack that. They are at the "mercy" of those holding the purse strings, and thus must dance to their tune. That means that 40K is most likely going to be a theme park style game(with PvP elements like WoW has).
Different races ally on the battlefield all the time if they need to....Eldar and SM allying to fight chaos as an easy example. Even in the rulebook they say to come up with whatever reason you need to to field whatever armys you have to ally or fight each other.
This idea just popped in my head and I thought I would share. What if they do have say, Eldar and SM as ally's but to stay a bit more to lore the Eldar and SM players cant communicate, similar to how they have enemy factions play in MMOs, and of course they cant enter each others Headquarters. Alerts could be issued if allys were have a huge battle. Similar in WAR yuo cuold look at the map and see hotspots but maybe with icons showing the races involved.
It could make sense Lore-wise if the eldar are being pushed hard by chaos the SMs could reinforce them to fight the common foe, but they wouldnt exactly be chatty. They could even open communication between the allies at higher "levels" to kind of show commanders on the battlefield helping issue orders to consolidate forces. So as a level 30+ SM you can talk to and be understood by level 30+ Eldar. You cant be understood by the noobs though. "LOLz, Hey Eldarz! We're gonna flank over by the rubble on the east side. Have your guyz push when we start AOEing!" Then the Eldar higher levels tells the noobs what the plan is.
Wow...a Warhammer 40K MMO could be huge.... it certainly has alot of rich lore to choose from...a built-in fan base ...and a perfect setting for some gut wrenching, visceral combat action.....and perfect rationale for jumping from environment to environment.
yeah, so had WAR supposed to be the shit, and what happened? cut down to some micro maps with okeish pvp but horrible, funneled progression.
40K is better suited to tactical/strategy games and will never work as an MMO. simply because its about massive battles or tactical skirmishes, without the group ure dead, and u will be because everyone will leave it after a month just like WAR.
only way for the game as i see it is the shooter option something between Battlefield series and Global Agenda. MMORPG this will not be im afraid.
besides, MMOs in general are a loosing genre. right now its single player games with multiplayer (CoD4, B:BC2, AvP, etc.) that are ruling the multiplayer world. action non stop, without the boredom and grind and tons of useless stats and gear that becomes useless in like 5 minutes of gameplay...
Most of you say 40k is based on PVP. Well you can say that about any game that has fighting. If you want to copy the tabletop game then yes, its about player vs player otherwise its a setting where anything can happen.
At this stage, there is no chance that with the amount of hands in the mix and the amount of money this will take that the game will be innovative when it comes to pvp or anything at all. You are fooling yourself if you think they want to make anything except a sure fire money maker which means copy what works. Star Trek is a good example of this, a universe with so much to offer and so many wannabe players expecting so much and getting a watered down pos. It can only be a clone of Warcraft or some other mix of existing games just like WaR tried to be and Global Agenda.
I would be very surprised if they added more than two factions, why would they? Because someone on a forum says they have to? While I want more than two factions as well, the nightmares it would cause for development can't be justified by investors for this reason; WoW works fine with two factions which is enough for the money guys to say. Of course, any 40k fan knows this will suck.
Don't get me wrong, I want awesome fun innovative PVP, but lets be realistic; we can hope all we want that they do something and get it right... but they won't. Its been proven time and time again. They will go where the money is and copy others.
2. PVE
With that in mind, imo the only way they can ever hope to really capture everything that the Warhammer Universe has to offer is by going PVE only and focusing on ENGAGING content and lots of it - something that most PVP mmorpg's these days don't have, and never have at launch because all the resources go into developing the (lackluster) PVP.
Innovating the way players interact with and experience the story world is should be where its at with this game. The STORY, arguably the coolest and most engaging part of the 40k universe, suffers in most PVP based mmorpg's along with everything else - half assed content and leveling, skills, quests etc. Here they have a chance to be different while still going where the money is (Can you say housewives playing sisters of battle or female eldar?)
With PVE they also go where the money is and concentrate on innovating and creating an engaging truly epic storyline with incredible content, group based and solo missions, real quests, not just fetch quests, and lots of it. PVP is less important to me in 40k than experiencing the universe at its fullest and most immersive.
End Note.
Think about it. While I am optimistic about video games because someone will always innovate at some point, the fact right now remains, the larger the IP the bigger chance of it sucking. Star Wars, Star Trek, WaR, Matrix... the list goes on and will get longer.
Mmorpg is a genre, and with every genre comes conventions. Also a key part of mmorpg is RPG. SO this is why I say PVE. If they want to add more of the tabletop strategy experience and go the Global Agenda route and improve on that model fine, but if its an mmorpg then PVE.
If they want to create a new genre or mix of them then fine, but it wont happen.
I've been reading the thread and there are a lot of good ideas around it, I just hope that some THQ ppl could read it and think about what has been said here.
The squad based system could be a good idea if they make it right. I'd make different 'classes' for each race, because each squad is very unique and u cannot make them from the same base, for example a Marine themed Squad it's based on marines, but a Techpriest or an Inquisitor usually go with some servitors rather than with a human squad.
For example, in the SM race you could choose to be a Scout, a Marine, a Techpriest or an Inquisitor, each with his role on the battlefield.
- The Scout squad could specialize in long range combat or close combat with maybe more of an anti-vehicle/heavy weapons build and demolition charges, etc.
- As a Marine u could go for the path of a tactical squad, an assault squad or a Heavy weapons one.
- I see the techpriest squad as a support squad, with vehicle an armor repair abilities, and they could also deploy some kind of turrets or defensive/offensive systems to support the rest of the army. But I see it more with the image of a Techpriest with a bunch of servitors rather than a full human squad, as i said before.
- And finally the Inquisitor squad would be the 'spell' themed squad, the Inquisitor and his servitors, they could be a DPS or support caster.
As for the factions I don't know what to say, 40K's armies are so independant that it's not easy to group them on factions, but it's true that 2 or 3 factions are the best choice, make the game like the tabletop would be a mess.
In the PvP vs PvE discussion I would say that 40k is all about war, so the PvP should be extensive and good, but I think the game must have a decent PvE too. I like PvP but I'm more of a PvE player so this may be a little subjective. And I think that a game with a poor PvE experience won't be very succesful, and 40k has tons of lore to make PvE content from it ( we have EVE as an exception, but EVE is EVE), and 40k has tons of lore to make PvE content from it.
These are some ideas that came to my mind while reading the post, and I'll accept every serious critic about them.
YES they are the creme of the crop of the imperium
YES! they can kick multitudes of ass before going down in a blaze of glory
HOWEVER Even though a single SM can kick dozens of Xenos in the teeth and live to tell the tale you're more referring to orks
who by nature are about the same ferocity as the SMs themselves the only difference is the Orks are kinda squishy but the Orks have numbers on their side and they're completely CRAZY. SMs adhere to a strict set of rules in a battleplan and any deviation is Heresy and then Heretics must burn and die.
After much reading on the Space Marines you can play a Space Marine in the MMO imho, they're not gods on the battlefield sure they're huge and yes they're powerful but far from immortal.
In game stats they should be bigger and badder than most everybody else so a bonus to health and regen would be necessary. BUT! They're not exactly able to pummel any Xenos or traitor into submission with just their fists (Unless they have power fist wargear handy). Several fluff battles have indicated that yes they were successful but with losses and you have to keep in mind this is a fluff based game not some silly Tabletop adventure turned 3D. It's more like DoW2 MMO
If the Tau so chose they could lie in wait leading the SM into an ambush where the potentiality for that squads Gene Seed to be lost would be great.
SM vs CSM there's usually heavy losses on both ends
SM vs DE the DE may lose a good bit but in the end they'll steal away with some tech and slaves which is what they were after in the first place. They come in fast strike hard take what they want and vanish leaving a mess behind.
SM vs Eldar this is apparent in DoW 2 when you fight the Eldar there because I feel the SMs in DoW 2 are far far stronger than the DoW 1 SMs. They can take alot of hits before succumbing to the touch of death. The Eldar are very tactical and any advantage they can leverage in a battle they will. Bonesingers would probably be in the rear bringing forth weapons platforms to push the SM back from what they feel is their sacred site.
SM vs Orks the greenskins just keep coming and only when the War boss goes down do they get scared enough to all scatter and run. Otherwise they're rough tough and got enough Dakka to take on any Git.
SM vs Tyranids or Necrons they lose with MAJOR Major losses unless they've come in a HUGE force and even then it's no guarantee if the Nids and Necrons are either acting as one or en masse.
So saying the Space Marines cannot be playable is silly each race has it's own strengths and weaknesses.
The SM are STRONG in Battle so long as they don't have to trek far on foot they're not Agile, they're not Fast, they can't react super fast (Cinematic of DoW 2 when the Warp Spiders get the jump on them). All they have is Super human strength endurance stamina and the faith to believe the god Emperor guides their hand.
End result the SM are just basically like the RL Force Recon Marines they're the Elite of the elite but they're not immortal.
The Orks have numbers and steal any tech they can get their grubby paws on.
The Dark Eldar appear from the darkness and return just as fast when they have what the objective was.
Tau lay in wait scouting and planning tactics until it's time to strike
Eldar warp in with a huge force and flank you on every side striking so fast you have little time to react if at all.
Chaos SM come in with the ground troops similar to the SM but then follow up with the Daemons to really push the point that your world will soon become theirs.
But SM Hanging out in Bars or having downtime hah Never...
IG More than likely have normal lives, the Inquisition are always busy in everybody's business so them having any downtime is usually spent in fervent prayer to the Emperor.
When a battle for Imperium objectives starts it begins with the IG, they get sent in first to assess the situation and handle it to the best of their abilities. If they succeed hooray then they have to start the process of building outposts on the planet.
If things go south for IG then the SM are called in to take care of the problem, but! if the SM get too zealous or don't immediately go to assist the IG then the Inquisition gets involved and as we all know they like to Accuse first and find out the truth later.
So CAN you play as Space Marines right off the bat
SURE! But like I keep saying DO NOT EXPECT TO BE Death incarnate You'll be having standard Bolters (strong yes but super strong no.) Standard Power armor nothing super fancy and everything else standard. Yes you can take lots and lots of punishment but when you reach the breaking point and there's no Apothecary in sight you'll be taking the next group of Xenos with you in death if things get too rough.
I liked the concept of being able to evolve into a different classification should the need arise...
Space Marines having two core classes would work to me You've got the
Scout Squad and the Tactical Squad
These can both eventually divert into different areas and even become dreadnoughts at a later point, I would think if they gained enough reknown with the inquisition and enough Favor with the Imperium they could also become a more presitgeous class like the Grey Knight or a Terminator.
Same goes for all the other races too since technically that's all it boils down to so you'd get as follows
Chaos Space Marines
Cultist and Traitor Marines
Eldar
Guardian and Ranger
Dark Eldar
Warrior and Wych
Imperial Guard
Conscript and Trooper
Inquisition
Acolyte and Warrior
Orks
Ork Boyz and Shoota Boyz
Tau
Fire Warrior and Kroot Kindred
But this is just my assumption of how it would work and how it could function if by gaining this or that and having enough Requisition to acquire more Elite means of battle would do.
I dont think they should copy but they should take notes from planetside in terms of vehicle use and different armour types. Most of us have played planetside with the certification sytem and i believe it could work tbh with like different certs for light veichles and more for the heavier ones, also for different armour types.
Didn't read all the replies but this would be a good starting point...Planetside got a lot of things right in the early days and vehicles/certs up to BR20 were some good ideas.
For factions maybe look at Fallen Earth style faction wheel? So Empire would tolerate the Eldar and Chaos tolerate Orks
so factions would be edgy where they could still turn upon each other but could come together facing a mutual enemy..i can see Farseers telling Guardians etc to help out a Marine Unit against tyranids or Chaos since they both kind of hate them.
Balancing would be hard i feel still..1 space marine =/= 10 ork boyz? kind of hard since marines are the elite of the elite where orks are usually canonfodder zerglings
At the risk of getting flames early on I actually think there are things that LOTRO did well that could be applied quite nicely to a 40K universe. Particularly around how LOTRO dealt with immersion in the background story and in the interaction with the forces of Sauron.
Personally I would like to see a game where the players main character is a guardsman/cogboy/sanctioned psyker, coopted into the service of the inquisition and would then progress through the ranks to Interrogater or maybe even Inquisitor - much like Dark Heresy, or Rogue Trader. The character is developed through the PVE world - which would give us access to the wide body of lore - the chance to unearth the dark secrets of the imperium ,fight the xenos, the heretic and the malleus, even perhaps become heretics ourselves using the powers of chaos against chaos. (Eisenhorn, Ravenor anyone) .
Character development would give us the ability to access PVP play, where we can either take our PVE characters or choose to play, Ork warboyz, Eldar, Tau, Chaos etc. Have Hero classes in this PVP environment (Space Marines, FarSeers, Sorcerors etc) which are unlockable under certain battle conditions - it should be possible to program an instance such that if one side is seriously understength or getting their backsides kicked that additional players can enter as the hero class to try and maintain the balance, or as a last ditch defense mechanism some cultist manages to finally summon that Daemon of Khorne or techboy manages to teleport in a Space Marine Squad (or Terminator). Hey points from the tabletop gain are designed to do this balancing so theres a system (albeit a little SM centric) out there already.
If you only want to play PVP well the system i've suggested above enables you to graft a little in PVE and then go out and create a PVP chaos beastie to run rampant with and gank to your hearts content. PVE development should give you points to devlop your PVP characters enabling you to be swing a Choppa or fire a Shoota one day, and burn down your enemies as a Chaos Sorceror the next you. The more PVE you do the more powerful a PVP beastie you can make, or perhaps it makes it easier to summon (play) that Hero Class.
If you only want to play PVE - well you need never go to the Eye of Terror/Cadia (or wherever else you set the PVP environment)
A game that focuses only on the combat element and ignores the background story dies sooner rather than later. If a company wants a commercially viable long term game they need to spend just as much time on player immersion in the environment as WOW did/does.
# 1 Multi factions for overall PvP and RvR balance.
Planetside and DAOC made this happen and it is proven that will work.
# 2 Lore versus MMO
As much I love the Warhammer 40k universe, from a hardcore MMO player standpoint I prefer balance. If THQ have tone down the space marines to make the game balance so be it.
# 3 End Game Content
No matter how pretty or how many quest the game has; If there nothing to do at max level other than walking around on your home town with the "sword of PWNAGE" the game, in my opinion, it is failure.
# 4 RvR / PvE / PvP
Thanks WoW (I am not much of a fan of this game, but I highly respect the king), a successful MMO needs to have these 3 elements. So here is the big challenge for THQ. How can achieve faction balance in both PvE and PvP? I have long been a proponent of the Planetside certification system on which players can select the skills that fits their game style. This way there is no damn excuse, if your current combo sucks. RECERT!!!!
# 5 Vehicle Combat
Land and Air vehicles should be considered.
Last but not least a word of advise to THQ. Keep the game in a low profile, dont overhype. Listen to the player base, but please use common sense approach for final solutions. The web is full of boards filled up with tears and blood of people that dont have anything better to do with their time than be a hater and doomsayer.
i look forward to this game and I will try it no matter what!
I disagree that this game, or any game, has to follow WoW's footsteps. Or even do both PvP and PvE just because WoW did it. I just don't think it makes sense from a business perspective.
If a company goes that route, then what are they expecting? To compete with WoW? Where will their customers come from? Are they trying to get people to switch from raiding in WoW to raiding in their new game?
After people have been playing WoW for years, they are VERY unlikely to do that. They have their guilds, their raiding schedule. And let's not forget, WoW is a very good game. At least in the PvE arena. People love it.
So no, their target audience has to be people who are tired of WoW, or people who never liked WoW. Either way, people who are either not playing WoW, or are looking for something else. Those people, by definition, want something completely different than WoW. Otherwise they would just stay.
So from a business point of view, any new game needs to be as different from WoW as possible, while still offering a little bit of something similar so that people coming in from other games will feel at home. But the core has to be different. If you make a new MMO today and try and go head to head with Blizzard on PvE and Raiding, you will fail. WoW is doing it, and is doing it better, with more money, more experience and a solid player-base. No point competing with that.
Comments
There is a mind boggling amount of possibilities that this game can take its direction. Then again…this wouldn’t be the first game with such an opportunity to not do so well…(Warhammer Online) Don’t get me wrong, WAR was fun and all, but there’s just hardly any players and the end game became musical castles…not fun. Perhaps, the bigger the opportunity, the larger the possibility of not fullfilling that opportunity. I hope they get it really really right this time around.
They have ways to get to and from the battlefield. Some units within each faction tend to employ "mounts" as their main weapon like the galaxy famous White Scars(Think massive AT-Bikes) or Saim-Hann(Think flying Anti-Grav bikes) while they tend to be just specific units in various armies like Necron Destroyers, Space Marine Scout bikes, Eldar Shining Spears and so on.
Could they be used in game? I dunno. Maybe but I would rather have the ability to paint my armor than get a mount at the end of the day.
My list would be:
1. Equal content across the board, don't make PvP the focus of the game, if you want that, there are hundreds Scifi FPS games out there for those types of players, PvP, PvE, Crafting, Socializing should be available from lvl 1 to end content. I would like to see the game start small and make it good, then expand as necessary for all content
2. Atleast 3 factions. Mine would be:
Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar
Tyranids, Necrons, Tau
Chaos Space Marines, Orks, Dark Eldar
"Enemy of my enemy" that sort of thing. (I know it goes against cannon) but you have to have sides. It will not happen but I can hope.
3. Squad based characters You are the Sergeant and you have npc squad that you command. Each race would have different sizes of squads to help with balancing issues. Having 20 Space marine Commanders running in circles, in PvP would just be wrong
4. Dynamic content. Theme parks need to go away, make the player base make the decisions in the game.
5. Sandbox style laterial skill tree advancement. Pick a race and then start learning how to use skills/ weapons/ equipment and troops. Basically no lvls or classes. Learn what you want to learn for your type of game play.
also Friendly Fire = Free for all PvP so a huge NO on that one.
Collector of old minis.
Playing WAR:Age of Rekoning
www.oldtimersguild.com
Space Marines DO NOT BUNNY HOP! EVER! End of rant.....
Hi all. I have been reading a great many posts under this topic, and I think we should set the record straight here.
Warhammer 40K is about squad level combat. Beginning and end of statement. You want individual characters, go play Inquisitor. The true issue is of BALANCE.
I have played Warhammer Online, and anyone who has played it for any length of time (more than 10 minutes in Nordenwatch)knows thats it is as unbalanced as it gets. I mean, let's be honest, Destro was way stronger than Order.
Lets look at the way a 40K squad is "puchased". We will use Space Marines here because everybody is familiar with them. With a Space Marine squad you get 5 Marines for so many points, call it 150. This includes a sergeant (you) and 4 troops, no upgrades or frills. Good Armor, standard weapon is the Bolter. Not the greatest weapon when moving (reduced range when moving), but deadly when a Marine can plant his feet and blaze away (Rapid Fire). For the same 150pts in the Eldar Codex you can get 10 guardians, but be able to upgrade to Black Guardians(better shooting with longer range weapons) and an Exarch (sergeant, again this is you). The balance here is that the Eldar are Fast and Fragile and can't stand up in a prolonged firefight. They rely on movement and faster shooting weapons (For those who don't know, Assault weapons always shoot same range, same number of shots) . For Orks (dear lord) which are only 4pts in the table top game compared to the Space Marines 15pts you now outnumber the Marines 3 to 1, even with a Nob (you). The balance here is that Orks suck at shooting but excell in Melee. So the number of Orks that survive the charge are at least equal to the five Marines.
I have been recently been playing STO, and I have found the Ground combat to be pretty ok. Not great, just ok. They rushed it. My squadmates are dumb as dirt, no real pathfinding to speak of, run ahead of me and get shot up; but the idea of fighting with a squad that I have "trained" and lead into combat appeals to me, just as it does to a great many of you.
Now I know you guys are gonna rip me up and down over this post. That's fine by me. This could be the greatest game yet.
Since when do Eldar Guardian Squads have Exarchs?
And no, Warhammer 40k is not about squad level combat. Dawn of War 2 might be about squad level combat, but by no means is Warhammer 40k on a squad level unless its in Kill Teams.
Balancing based on a squad and balancing based on Individuals boils down to the same damn thing, so no need to try and pull the veil down and try to make sound obscure. Whats the difference between a squad of big tough guys, and a single individual tough guy except numbers?
The MMO isn't going to be broken down into 3 phases where you move, shoot, then assault.
This should not be Dawn of War 2 in MMO format.
When you assume the Identity of a character in the game, you become SOMEONE. You are no longer an extra or just another number. Leave that 3 Orks to 1 marine crap to the NPCs. Let them flesh out the feeling of the environment. Hell, let it be like dynasty warriors where you're 1 among many, up against overwhelming odds. But the moment you take control of a squad of characters instead of personalizing your avatar, you take the character out of being a character. You're no longer experiencing the world. You're just a hand hovering over it, directing orders.
Or does it really come down to the mighty space marines not wanting to get smacked around 1 on 1 by an Ork or Eldar Guardian?
As much as I love the Fluff in the Warhammer 40k universe, it's not something to hide behind when it comes to game balancing. Look at the Translation from Fluff to Tabletop. 1 SM vs 50 Orcs (Fluff) compared to 1 Sm vs 2-3 Orcs, Tabletop. 1 on 1 balance is just taking it another step further and makes the engagement more personal.
When you're behind your character, you're not just another NPC. I don't care if it is 2 Guardians or 5 orks to 1 Space Marine in NPC fights and thats a fair fight for them. You can have them coming in waves in the background or even all around you, that's great. Players should be exceptions to that.
I hope they do what feels heroic and engaging.
No matter how you cut it, Players will always feel for themselves. From a Space marine point of view, sure, being 1 person against 3-4 guys is pretty awesome. But how would you feel if you're one of those 3 to 4 guys getting slagged? How would you feel if you brought your squad of 6 guys up against 2 SMs and got wasted time and time again? That's how people will feel and see it. They will see their squad dying while struggling to knock off even 1 Space Marine, get frustrated and quit.
And that same logic would turn against Space marines if Necron were introduced as playable, as they're superior one on one to Space marines in just about every way there is.
Balance for 1 on 1. My apologies for redundant thoughts.
Well, that would be *great*... Except for the fact that damn few MMO companies can do path finding, or even *basic* NPC squad level tactics half right. What we are likely to end up with is a typical MMO with individual players in most of the roles(different classes). NPC GAI is *quite* difficult, and there are only a few specialists(out side of university research and development groups) that are even close to doing the basics. Until that field is further developed, we are going to have to settle for what we have.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it.
Bioware had some excellent pathing in Mass Effect 2, and they really put a lot into it, and it was still a bit wonky. For an MMO, that could be quite terrible.
The other thing is that I love being a unique snowflake, as dumb as that sounds. And when I have to split it up among several characters at the same time, I find that it takes away from the experience.
Unless your comrades are more like Pets in other games. Where they're basically just another source for abilities and you are the main one. That could work I guess. But seems really redundant.
*sigh* while I love the 40K IP, I have to say I'm really nervous regarding this MMO....
The biggest problem is the massive lore-rape that will have to go down if they want to make Marines a playable "race". But seeing as EVERYBODY loves marines (famous Tabletop 40K saying: all kids play marines) they'll probably have to include them to make all the shrimp happy...
let's look at the lore facts for a moment:
A Space Marine is a 7ft tall, genetically enhanced mumakil on steroids.
A Space Marine is incredibly devout. No fear of death and all...
To prevent a 2nd Heresy incident, there are only 1000 Marines in each Chapter (although Blackies, Salas and Wolves don't give a shit about this one) and there are roughly 1000 Chapters... meaning 1.000.000 Space Marines roaming through the galaxy (Scouts, Servitors and all that doesn't count)
just as a point of comparison, that is about 3 times the headcount of the current german armed forces...
Space Marines are fighting machines. Each individual Space Marines capable of blasting dozens of enemies on his own before going down.
Space Marines are not trained farmboys. Space Marines are bred from the genepool of their chapter (which is 1 part ChapterLeader, 1 part Emperor and 1 part violence) Space Marines don't hang out in bars to relax. They don't socialize
So... after these facts how can Space Marines be in this MMO? two ways:
1. Everyone is a Space Marine! We go around in Squads and kill Xenos. Weeeee! And the motivation behind going around and killing them? BECAUSE THEY'RE XENOS! Think Tabula Rasa without Guild Fights... fuuuuuuuun -.-
2. You can play all kinds of races including Marines but for balance reasons Marines have to be just as strong as an IG Soldier or a Tau Fire Warrior... this would probably work gameplay wise but it would rape the IP to death.... remember: there is just 1 million marines out there!
Basically, if Marines are in the game, it's gonna suck... Then again I'm probably the only person who thinks it's way cooler playing Albert Average than Paul Pwnlord and everybody else loves Marines so much that you don't even ask these questions. Basically same thing that's going on over in the "Opiwahn was killed by a Giant Rat" department
Imho a way better 40K MMO would have been one on a Hive World where you play "more human like" stuff like Adeptus Arbites Enforcers, Gangers and aspiring Ordo Malleus/Ordo Hereticum Agents ala Inquisitor... lots of possibilities to be had with that...
This is not trolling btw... As I said I'm a big fan of the 40K IP
<S.T.E.A.L.T.H>
An Agency that kicks so much ass it has to be written in all capital letters... divided by dots!
www.stealth-industries.de
Honestly, I think if they go the route of trying to make the MMO like the wargame, the game is going to fail, in an epic way.
Sure, theres a faction or two already pre-built, the Imperium (so xenophobic they devoted an entire branch of the Inquisition, lets see how well they do a long term alliance wityh xenos scum) and the Tau empire (who will work with anyone who is willing to accept the whole greater good thing). Necron's don't talk to people, they just lay the groundwork for the C'tan to eat, Nids just eat everything in sight, Orks aren't to big on alliances (they just wanna fight) and the Eldar are...well, Eldar and Chaos is, well, Chaos. All in all, no easy way to balance any kind of factional thing if your looking at the point of view of keeping it warfare based like the wargame(plenty of folks have brought up the space marines, and for them, as well as a couple other races (Tau, Eldar) its just as bad in terms of free will/time/power scale)
Honestly, I hope they take a page from Fantasy Flight Games, Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are both good ways to get a 40k feel, without having to add in all the seriously complicated issues of "now how d we balance a space marine versus a regular human, or god forbid a regular tau?" They do that, I think they'd be on the right track, take a cue from CCP on doing a sandbox world (EVE is gravy that way, althoughI'm not suggesting an EVE clone) and give players more freedom and less restrictions, mix in a good dose of basic storyline, pick a corner of the galaxy that see's alot of action, and let her rip, and I think they's be doing just fine. As long as they don't jack with the lore...after almost 16 years of playing the game, and reading the lore, and even working for GW at one point, last thing I want is a few 'minor' revisions to lore (like, oh, say how space marines go from being normal goobs to superhuman killing machines just so little timmy doesn't cry because he can't be a smurf)
As much as I would love a 40K MMO, I don't think any developer could make a game that will not violate tons and tons of background fluff for game balance.
The only exception would be to do an Inquisition or Rogue Trader style game where players only see and interact with tiny portions of the galaxy and its factions. An encounter with a space marine should be a deadly affair for a whole party of adventures.
Lowly humans working with out cast aliens in border regions avoiding or helping the human Inquisition. Trading among aliens far from the view of Imperial masters. Seeking ancient artifacts and staying away from authorities who would take your hard won trophies.
Misfits of various races working together for survival. That would work.
But JOE BOB of the Ultramarines is only going to work with other space marines unless forced to do so by his superiors.
No a good dynamic.
Asheron's Call, Champions Online, Dark Age of Camelot, EVE Online, EverQuest, Lineage 2, Star Wars Galaxies and World of Warcraft.Waiting for SWTOR
I dont' think it'll be too difficult to balance the game on an individual level. As someone mentioned above. Everyone wants to be a unique snowflake. I'm no exception to that.
lets take a look at how troops can be balanced.
The Space Marines: The Imperium of Man's finest. The angels of death.
Space Marines Scouts. Space marine initiates. Their implants haven't fully developed and their carapace is still hardening, and thus can't wear heavy space marine armor. We'll say these guys are Tier 1.
Tactical Space Marines. They're genetically bred killing machines in really big armor. he's strong and tough and has some great armor. Good hand to hand and ranged combat. Jack of all trades, Master of none. We'll say they're Tier 2 Troops.
Lets compare them to the Eldar, for ease of reference.
Eldar: [booming voice]Elves In Spaaaaaaaaaaaace.[/booming voice]. Actually more like Ninja Elves in Space.
Eldar Guardian - Eldar Civilians tossed in armor and trained as a militia. Not as Strong and Tough as Space Marine Scouts, but have a speed advantage. Are cheaper in Table Top. Tier 1.
Eldar Dire Avenger - Led the Phoenix Lord Asuryen and follow the path of the Warrior. Superior to Guardians in every way with greater weapons, training and armor. Not as strong or tough as Space Marines, but are faster, and their default weapons allow them to fire on the run. Tier 2.
If characters progressed through a Tiered system, it wouldn't be too difficult to balance the various opposing characters. If it's level based, maybe levels 1-10 are Tier 1, 11-25 are tier 2, 26-40 tier 3, etc.. etc.. etc..
They could balance the tiers against each other. So a Space marine could smack around some guardians, but would have a much more difficult time against a Dire Avenger, etc..
You make some excellent points... But the fact remains that sand box games have demonstrated a tendency to niche themselves in the west. The more freedom and less restrictions there are, the more the game becomes a haven for gankers and griefers. That is NOT good for a companies business model. Look at the evolution of Concord in Eve Online as just one example of how these things naturally work out.
Personally, I'd not wish to be the one attempting to make the major design decisions in this game. Just about anything you do will alienate some part of the fan base. Not to mention having to hand hold the investors/publisher once the initial wave of players starts to fade out. Eve has the hard bought luxury of looking at the long haul. The vast majority of games lack that. They are at the "mercy" of those holding the purse strings, and thus must dance to their tune. That means that 40K is most likely going to be a theme park style game(with PvP elements like WoW has).
Different races ally on the battlefield all the time if they need to....Eldar and SM allying to fight chaos as an easy example. Even in the rulebook they say to come up with whatever reason you need to to field whatever armys you have to ally or fight each other.
This idea just popped in my head and I thought I would share. What if they do have say, Eldar and SM as ally's but to stay a bit more to lore the Eldar and SM players cant communicate, similar to how they have enemy factions play in MMOs, and of course they cant enter each others Headquarters. Alerts could be issued if allys were have a huge battle. Similar in WAR yuo cuold look at the map and see hotspots but maybe with icons showing the races involved.
It could make sense Lore-wise if the eldar are being pushed hard by chaos the SMs could reinforce them to fight the common foe, but they wouldnt exactly be chatty. They could even open communication between the allies at higher "levels" to kind of show commanders on the battlefield helping issue orders to consolidate forces. So as a level 30+ SM you can talk to and be understood by level 30+ Eldar. You cant be understood by the noobs though. "LOLz, Hey Eldarz! We're gonna flank over by the rubble on the east side. Have your guyz push when we start AOEing!" Then the Eldar higher levels tells the noobs what the plan is.
Could be cool.
yeah, so had WAR supposed to be the shit, and what happened? cut down to some micro maps with okeish pvp but horrible, funneled progression.
40K is better suited to tactical/strategy games and will never work as an MMO. simply because its about massive battles or tactical skirmishes, without the group ure dead, and u will be because everyone will leave it after a month just like WAR.
only way for the game as i see it is the shooter option something between Battlefield series and Global Agenda. MMORPG this will not be im afraid.
besides, MMOs in general are a loosing genre. right now its single player games with multiplayer (CoD4, B:BC2, AvP, etc.) that are ruling the multiplayer world. action non stop, without the boredom and grind and tons of useless stats and gear that becomes useless in like 5 minutes of gameplay...
It needs... people. Subscribers. Hopefully the IP will pull more people in.... and hopefully it will come pre-made with an anti-flop feature.
Space Marines are only going to be playable by those who buy the $80 Collector's Edtion and who also pay $300 for the lifetime subscription fee...
2 ways to go, PVP or PVE.
1. PVP
Most of you say 40k is based on PVP. Well you can say that about any game that has fighting. If you want to copy the tabletop game then yes, its about player vs player otherwise its a setting where anything can happen.
At this stage, there is no chance that with the amount of hands in the mix and the amount of money this will take that the game will be innovative when it comes to pvp or anything at all. You are fooling yourself if you think they want to make anything except a sure fire money maker which means copy what works. Star Trek is a good example of this, a universe with so much to offer and so many wannabe players expecting so much and getting a watered down pos. It can only be a clone of Warcraft or some other mix of existing games just like WaR tried to be and Global Agenda.
I would be very surprised if they added more than two factions, why would they? Because someone on a forum says they have to? While I want more than two factions as well, the nightmares it would cause for development can't be justified by investors for this reason; WoW works fine with two factions which is enough for the money guys to say. Of course, any 40k fan knows this will suck.
Don't get me wrong, I want awesome fun innovative PVP, but lets be realistic; we can hope all we want that they do something and get it right... but they won't. Its been proven time and time again. They will go where the money is and copy others.
2. PVE
With that in mind, imo the only way they can ever hope to really capture everything that the Warhammer Universe has to offer is by going PVE only and focusing on ENGAGING content and lots of it - something that most PVP mmorpg's these days don't have, and never have at launch because all the resources go into developing the (lackluster) PVP.
Innovating the way players interact with and experience the story world is should be where its at with this game. The STORY, arguably the coolest and most engaging part of the 40k universe, suffers in most PVP based mmorpg's along with everything else - half assed content and leveling, skills, quests etc. Here they have a chance to be different while still going where the money is (Can you say housewives playing sisters of battle or female eldar?)
With PVE they also go where the money is and concentrate on innovating and creating an engaging truly epic storyline with incredible content, group based and solo missions, real quests, not just fetch quests, and lots of it. PVP is less important to me in 40k than experiencing the universe at its fullest and most immersive.
End Note.
Think about it. While I am optimistic about video games because someone will always innovate at some point, the fact right now remains, the larger the IP the bigger chance of it sucking. Star Wars, Star Trek, WaR, Matrix... the list goes on and will get longer.
Mmorpg is a genre, and with every genre comes conventions. Also a key part of mmorpg is RPG. SO this is why I say PVE. If they want to add more of the tabletop strategy experience and go the Global Agenda route and improve on that model fine, but if its an mmorpg then PVE.
If they want to create a new genre or mix of them then fine, but it wont happen.
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I've been reading the thread and there are a lot of good ideas around it, I just hope that some THQ ppl could read it and think about what has been said here.
The squad based system could be a good idea if they make it right. I'd make different 'classes' for each race, because each squad is very unique and u cannot make them from the same base, for example a Marine themed Squad it's based on marines, but a Techpriest or an Inquisitor usually go with some servitors rather than with a human squad.
For example, in the SM race you could choose to be a Scout, a Marine, a Techpriest or an Inquisitor, each with his role on the battlefield.
- The Scout squad could specialize in long range combat or close combat with maybe more of an anti-vehicle/heavy weapons build and demolition charges, etc.
- As a Marine u could go for the path of a tactical squad, an assault squad or a Heavy weapons one.
- I see the techpriest squad as a support squad, with vehicle an armor repair abilities, and they could also deploy some kind of turrets or defensive/offensive systems to support the rest of the army. But I see it more with the image of a Techpriest with a bunch of servitors rather than a full human squad, as i said before.
- And finally the Inquisitor squad would be the 'spell' themed squad, the Inquisitor and his servitors, they could be a DPS or support caster.
As for the factions I don't know what to say, 40K's armies are so independant that it's not easy to group them on factions, but it's true that 2 or 3 factions are the best choice, make the game like the tabletop would be a mess.
In the PvP vs PvE discussion I would say that 40k is all about war, so the PvP should be extensive and good, but I think the game must have a decent PvE too. I like PvP but I'm more of a PvE player so this may be a little subjective. And I think that a game with a poor PvE experience won't be very succesful, and 40k has tons of lore to make PvE content from it ( we have EVE as an exception, but EVE is EVE), and 40k has tons of lore to make PvE content from it.
These are some ideas that came to my mind while reading the post, and I'll accept every serious critic about them.
PD: sorry if I have a Bad English but I'm Spanish
Yes SM are bred for War
YES they are the creme of the crop of the imperium
YES! they can kick multitudes of ass before going down in a blaze of glory
HOWEVER Even though a single SM can kick dozens of Xenos in the teeth and live to tell the tale you're more referring to orks
who by nature are about the same ferocity as the SMs themselves the only difference is the Orks are kinda squishy but the Orks have numbers on their side and they're completely CRAZY. SMs adhere to a strict set of rules in a battleplan and any deviation is Heresy and then Heretics must burn and die.
After much reading on the Space Marines you can play a Space Marine in the MMO imho, they're not gods on the battlefield sure they're huge and yes they're powerful but far from immortal.
In game stats they should be bigger and badder than most everybody else so a bonus to health and regen would be necessary. BUT! They're not exactly able to pummel any Xenos or traitor into submission with just their fists (Unless they have power fist wargear handy). Several fluff battles have indicated that yes they were successful but with losses and you have to keep in mind this is a fluff based game not some silly Tabletop adventure turned 3D. It's more like DoW2 MMO
If the Tau so chose they could lie in wait leading the SM into an ambush where the potentiality for that squads Gene Seed to be lost would be great.
SM vs CSM there's usually heavy losses on both ends
SM vs DE the DE may lose a good bit but in the end they'll steal away with some tech and slaves which is what they were after in the first place. They come in fast strike hard take what they want and vanish leaving a mess behind.
SM vs Eldar this is apparent in DoW 2 when you fight the Eldar there because I feel the SMs in DoW 2 are far far stronger than the DoW 1 SMs. They can take alot of hits before succumbing to the touch of death. The Eldar are very tactical and any advantage they can leverage in a battle they will. Bonesingers would probably be in the rear bringing forth weapons platforms to push the SM back from what they feel is their sacred site.
SM vs Orks the greenskins just keep coming and only when the War boss goes down do they get scared enough to all scatter and run. Otherwise they're rough tough and got enough Dakka to take on any Git.
SM vs Tyranids or Necrons they lose with MAJOR Major losses unless they've come in a HUGE force and even then it's no guarantee if the Nids and Necrons are either acting as one or en masse.
So saying the Space Marines cannot be playable is silly each race has it's own strengths and weaknesses.
The SM are STRONG in Battle so long as they don't have to trek far on foot they're not Agile, they're not Fast, they can't react super fast (Cinematic of DoW 2 when the Warp Spiders get the jump on them). All they have is Super human strength endurance stamina and the faith to believe the god Emperor guides their hand.
End result the SM are just basically like the RL Force Recon Marines they're the Elite of the elite but they're not immortal.
The Orks have numbers and steal any tech they can get their grubby paws on.
The Dark Eldar appear from the darkness and return just as fast when they have what the objective was.
Tau lay in wait scouting and planning tactics until it's time to strike
Eldar warp in with a huge force and flank you on every side striking so fast you have little time to react if at all.
Chaos SM come in with the ground troops similar to the SM but then follow up with the Daemons to really push the point that your world will soon become theirs.
But SM Hanging out in Bars or having downtime hah Never...
IG More than likely have normal lives, the Inquisition are always busy in everybody's business so them having any downtime is usually spent in fervent prayer to the Emperor.
When a battle for Imperium objectives starts it begins with the IG, they get sent in first to assess the situation and handle it to the best of their abilities. If they succeed hooray then they have to start the process of building outposts on the planet.
If things go south for IG then the SM are called in to take care of the problem, but! if the SM get too zealous or don't immediately go to assist the IG then the Inquisition gets involved and as we all know they like to Accuse first and find out the truth later.
So CAN you play as Space Marines right off the bat
SURE! But like I keep saying DO NOT EXPECT TO BE Death incarnate You'll be having standard Bolters (strong yes but super strong no.) Standard Power armor nothing super fancy and everything else standard. Yes you can take lots and lots of punishment but when you reach the breaking point and there's no Apothecary in sight you'll be taking the next group of Xenos with you in death if things get too rough.
I liked the concept of being able to evolve into a different classification should the need arise...
Space Marines having two core classes would work to me You've got the
Scout Squad and the Tactical Squad
These can both eventually divert into different areas and even become dreadnoughts at a later point, I would think if they gained enough reknown with the inquisition and enough Favor with the Imperium they could also become a more presitgeous class like the Grey Knight or a Terminator.
Same goes for all the other races too since technically that's all it boils down to so you'd get as follows
Chaos Space Marines
Cultist and Traitor Marines
Eldar
Guardian and Ranger
Dark Eldar
Warrior and Wych
Imperial Guard
Conscript and Trooper
Inquisition
Acolyte and Warrior
Orks
Ork Boyz and Shoota Boyz
Tau
Fire Warrior and Kroot Kindred
But this is just my assumption of how it would work and how it could function if by gaining this or that and having enough Requisition to acquire more Elite means of battle would do.
Didn't read all the replies but this would be a good starting point...Planetside got a lot of things right in the early days and vehicles/certs up to BR20 were some good ideas.
For factions maybe look at Fallen Earth style faction wheel? So Empire would tolerate the Eldar and Chaos tolerate Orks
so factions would be edgy where they could still turn upon each other but could come together facing a mutual enemy..i can see Farseers telling Guardians etc to help out a Marine Unit against tyranids or Chaos since they both kind of hate them.
Balancing would be hard i feel still..1 space marine =/= 10 ork boyz? kind of hard since marines are the elite of the elite where orks are usually canonfodder zerglings
At the risk of getting flames early on I actually think there are things that LOTRO did well that could be applied quite nicely to a 40K universe. Particularly around how LOTRO dealt with immersion in the background story and in the interaction with the forces of Sauron.
Personally I would like to see a game where the players main character is a guardsman/cogboy/sanctioned psyker, coopted into the service of the inquisition and would then progress through the ranks to Interrogater or maybe even Inquisitor - much like Dark Heresy, or Rogue Trader. The character is developed through the PVE world - which would give us access to the wide body of lore - the chance to unearth the dark secrets of the imperium ,fight the xenos, the heretic and the malleus, even perhaps become heretics ourselves using the powers of chaos against chaos. (Eisenhorn, Ravenor anyone) .
Character development would give us the ability to access PVP play, where we can either take our PVE characters or choose to play, Ork warboyz, Eldar, Tau, Chaos etc. Have Hero classes in this PVP environment (Space Marines, FarSeers, Sorcerors etc) which are unlockable under certain battle conditions - it should be possible to program an instance such that if one side is seriously understength or getting their backsides kicked that additional players can enter as the hero class to try and maintain the balance, or as a last ditch defense mechanism some cultist manages to finally summon that Daemon of Khorne or techboy manages to teleport in a Space Marine Squad (or Terminator). Hey points from the tabletop gain are designed to do this balancing so theres a system (albeit a little SM centric) out there already.
If you only want to play PVP well the system i've suggested above enables you to graft a little in PVE and then go out and create a PVP chaos beastie to run rampant with and gank to your hearts content. PVE development should give you points to devlop your PVP characters enabling you to be swing a Choppa or fire a Shoota one day, and burn down your enemies as a Chaos Sorceror the next you. The more PVE you do the more powerful a PVP beastie you can make, or perhaps it makes it easier to summon (play) that Hero Class.
If you only want to play PVE - well you need never go to the Eye of Terror/Cadia (or wherever else you set the PVP environment)
A game that focuses only on the combat element and ignores the background story dies sooner rather than later. If a company wants a commercially viable long term game they need to spend just as much time on player immersion in the environment as WOW did/does.
Thanks for reading this
# 1 Multi factions for overall PvP and RvR balance.
Planetside and DAOC made this happen and it is proven that will work.
# 2 Lore versus MMO
As much I love the Warhammer 40k universe, from a hardcore MMO player standpoint I prefer balance. If THQ have tone down the space marines to make the game balance so be it.
# 3 End Game Content
No matter how pretty or how many quest the game has; If there nothing to do at max level other than walking around on your home town with the "sword of PWNAGE" the game, in my opinion, it is failure.
# 4 RvR / PvE / PvP
Thanks WoW (I am not much of a fan of this game, but I highly respect the king), a successful MMO needs to have these 3 elements. So here is the big challenge for THQ. How can achieve faction balance in both PvE and PvP? I have long been a proponent of the Planetside certification system on which players can select the skills that fits their game style. This way there is no damn excuse, if your current combo sucks. RECERT!!!!
# 5 Vehicle Combat
Land and Air vehicles should be considered.
Last but not least a word of advise to THQ. Keep the game in a low profile, dont overhype. Listen to the player base, but please use common sense approach for final solutions. The web is full of boards filled up with tears and blood of people that dont have anything better to do with their time than be a hater and doomsayer.
i look forward to this game and I will try it no matter what!
good luck THQ
Hadn't considered that angle....... Need to start saving now
I disagree that this game, or any game, has to follow WoW's footsteps. Or even do both PvP and PvE just because WoW did it. I just don't think it makes sense from a business perspective.
If a company goes that route, then what are they expecting? To compete with WoW? Where will their customers come from? Are they trying to get people to switch from raiding in WoW to raiding in their new game?
After people have been playing WoW for years, they are VERY unlikely to do that. They have their guilds, their raiding schedule. And let's not forget, WoW is a very good game. At least in the PvE arena. People love it.
So no, their target audience has to be people who are tired of WoW, or people who never liked WoW. Either way, people who are either not playing WoW, or are looking for something else. Those people, by definition, want something completely different than WoW. Otherwise they would just stay.
So from a business point of view, any new game needs to be as different from WoW as possible, while still offering a little bit of something similar so that people coming in from other games will feel at home. But the core has to be different. If you make a new MMO today and try and go head to head with Blizzard on PvE and Raiding, you will fail. WoW is doing it, and is doing it better, with more money, more experience and a solid player-base. No point competing with that.