everybody want a piece of the game pie but nobody wants to make them !in the end we ll end up with no game to play
That's a bit alarmist. Last year the video game market was projected to reach 57 billion dollars (findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2008_June_30/ai_n27874223/). Now, even if it missed that target by 50%, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be too hard pressed to find a company that would want to take a crack at making some of that money. ; )
as long as the classics like NES,N64 and more then i should list is not effected then this don't effect me. don't have PS3,PS2,WII or 360 and i use steam or retail for PC and there is no used pc game market from what i've seen wish there was.
publishers/developers are getting pretty greedy these days whats next are the car dealers and electronics retailers going to be demanding a piece of the pie when you resell your cars and tv's/computers lol
You are joking right? Developers are underpaid for the amount of money the game industry brings in.
I have been saying this all along, but buying used console games is no different than pirating a game. The Publisher/Developer will not benefit from it what so ever and it means one less new game sale. It would be the same as if you bought a game, beat it, gave it to a friend, they beat it, they gave it to someone else...ect If one person buys a game 10 people want to play, thats 9 sales lost. Same concept applies to piracy, doesnt matter if you lose money in the process, if the money doesnt go to the people who made the game its pointless.
Why do you think EA kept out content for used game sales on Mass Effect 2 unless they pay for it?
Originally posted by Rabenwolf buying used console games is no different than pirating a game.
Yeah, so when I buy a new car and then sell it, I'm pirating the car because I didn't give GM the money? How about this nice living room furniture I bought? Am I pirating the sofa when I sell it because I didn't send the furniture store a cut?
Don't talk about something when you don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about to begin with, dude.
When I buy a game, it's mine. I own it. If I want to burn it, use it for a frisbee, or sell it, it's my decision to do so.
When people are fed up with this kind of bullshit, and the stores like Gamestop start seeing they are being pushed out of business, there will be lawsuits. And the game companies WILL lose.
If the Movie , Music and Gaming industry had their way we could only watch a movie once , listen to each track on a CD once and play through a game only once before having to purchase it again.
As for devs not getting paid enough.. I beg to differ. They make more than enough and just because the industry brings in shiny coin doesnt mean they need to be paid more.
Originally posted by Rabenwolf buying used console games is no different than pirating a game.
Yeah, so when I buy a new car and then sell it, I'm pirating the car because I didn't give GM the money? How about this nice living room furniture I bought? Am I pirating the sofa when I sell it because I didn't send the furniture store a cut?
Don't talk about something when you don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about to begin with, dude.
When I buy a game, it's mine. I own it. If I want to burn it, use it for a frisbee, or sell it, it's my decision to do so.
When people are fed up with this kind of bullshit, and the stores like Gamestop start seeing they are being pushed out of business, there will be lawsuits. And the game companies WILL lose.
You are comparing car's to software? Really? Question, how much do you really know about game development?
A car, in case you forgot, is a utility and expected to be a long term investment. Auto makers make their vehicles based on demand.
The entertainment industry is completely different, and you should know better.
I am not sure you understand what it means to buy a game. It means you purchase the right to play their copywritten material. Do you get it? You dont own anything other than materials made to make the game. You cannot sell the license to play it. Again this is SOFTWARE. Waiting to buy used games and selling them after one play through has the exact same effect as piracy. What do you not understand about that? To buy used means you dont want to spend as much, why not go the extra mile and just pirate it then? Paying for it doesnt mean much if its not going to the developers and publishers who invested in the project.
I am not sure you understand the effect this is having on the industry. Publishers thought they were safe with consoles, they even raised the price of a console game higher and are now forcing content to be left out for DLC because of used game sales. Did you know used game sales have more of a negative impact than Piracy?
But hey, go ahead and play dumb if you wish. I dare you to go to next years GDC and suggest what you have, lets see what those under paid developers think of you.
Pure Greed is about all that can be said. If the Movie , Music and Gaming industry had their way we could only watch a movie once , listen to each track on a CD once and play through a game only once before having to purchase it again. As for devs not getting paid enough.. I beg to differ. They make more than enough and just because the industry brings in shiny coin doesnt mean they need to be paid more.
I has very little to do with Greed. Greed isnt causing studio's to get shut down. Publishers have their fair share of bad management... but lets put this in perspective.
You make a AAA game that you poured all of your resources into. 2 million people play your game but only 600,000 bought your game. You look at the retailer who is getting the 2 million of your sales and they do not order any more off you. Tell me, what part of this is greed?
After the tickle down effect happens and the revenue is split up to the developers, the publishers, marketing, taxes..ect. Whats left if little for all and the chances are the Studio's next project wont get enough funding to keep their current staff. So developers get let go.
Do you know how common it is in this industry to get let go? Not because you are bad, or the game was horrible, but because the return wasnt great enough.
Lets put this into perspective, the video game industry on total brings in more revenue than the film, music, and tv industries combined. The retailer is taking a large chunk of that. I used to work in the film industry, a director for a mediocre film will make a couple million dollars easily. What do you think a creative director on a AAA top selling video game will make? I dont think you understand how little game developers get paid in light of the rest of the entertainment industry.
Are you a developer? If you were your tune would change...and fast.
I have been saying this all along, but buying used console games is no different than pirating a game.
Actually, as previously posted, US case law says no, it isn't. Now, providing an incentive for someone to be a "first hand" purchase is fine, but selling a game I bought is no different then selling a DVD or CD I bought. Both of which are perfectly find and established as legal activities (in the US at least. cannot speak for other countries copyright laws).
Short version, I would be more inclined to believe the legal experts who have come to the conclusion that it is, in fact, not like pirating.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I don't see how this is related to MMO's since MMORPG's need to be able to secure their game in ways such as using keys and it's really nothing new since games started going online. I don't know too many people that buy MMO's used and I really don't see it as a major problem. Sure, they may charge people with fees for any online related content, but you have to remember that these same people have to combat piracy and other people illegally distributing their game for free too.
You really should present both sides of the coin and I do find it a bit unrelated to MMO's in general since a lot of the focus of the games in question aren't MMO's.
I would personally care more if this situation weren't directly attributable to the actions of the game publishers.
The fact is that they defined the product that they would sell to you. A lot of people took a lot of time going over what this product was, how much it would make them, etc. They absolutely took into account that once they shipped that product, it would be out there in the world being played by someone. They knew that they were selling a product like most other businesses do, and they expected the product to be change hands like most other physical products.
So any situation they have with their business model is on their heads, because they were totally in charge all this time. Regarding additional expenses like online play and DLC, I have no sympathy for them there either. They put "Free Online Play!!1!" and "Free Downloadable Content!!11!!" right on the game box before they sold it. Therefore, that goes along with the product no matter who is playing it.
MMORPGs have always been hard to re-sell because you have to give away your password and account name, which leads to concerns about someone getting your credit card info since you used that to subscribe, and the value is often in the free month of subscription, which is gone in a used game.
But yea, games like Spore, and games on Steam suck.
I have Borderlands. I can give or sell it to you, you can load the game, put in the code that came in the box and play the game.
I have been saying this all along, but buying used console games is no different than pirating a game.
Actually, as previously posted, US case law says no, it isn't. Now, providing an incentive for someone to be a "first hand" purchase is fine, but selling a game I bought is no different then selling a DVD or CD I bought. Both of which are perfectly find and established as legal activities (in the US at least. cannot speak for other countries copyright laws).
Short version, I would be more inclined to believe the legal experts who have come to the conclusion that it is, in fact, not like pirating.
Did you bother to actually read and comprehend my post? Its not about legality, its about the effect it has on the publisher. Cmon now, you are smarter than that i would hope.
For my consoles I almost always buy used. To me it is just like buyin cars used. Let someone else take it for a run n loose some money on it then I will pick it up for less.
I have to agree with some points. Places like Gamestop are at the point of reselling their popular used games for close to the same price as a brand new one. So they are rippin off the customer and the game devs. IMO get rid of the used game market...well people simply won't be as quick to buy a new title every month. Those who buy/power game then sell the game a month later, won't be as quick to buy a new title till they are sure it is worth the money. And those like myself who buy used console games, won't be as quick to buy new titles unless I get a really really good demo.
When it comes to PC games. I like having the CD around. Slower net connection makes for a quick install with cd. Those who think digital download is a great thing. Might not be singing the same tune when their net providers begin to limit the amount they can d/l. Or start charging for extra bandwidth used when everybody else needs to d/l games.
Did you bother to actually read and comprehend my post? Its not about legality, its about the effect it has on the publisher. Cmon now, you are smarter than that i would hope.
Alright, for the sake of semantic excercises....Now, the whole post I replied to:
"I have been saying this all along, but buying used console games is no different thanpirating a game. The Publisher/Developer will not benefit from it what so ever and it means one less new game sale. It would be the same as if you bought a game, beat it, gave it to a friend, they beat it, they gave it to someone else...ect If one person buys a game 10 people want to play, thats 9 sales lost.Same concept applies to piracy, doesnt matter if you lose money in the process, if the money doesnt go to the people who made the game its pointless."
Minus your leading and trailing sentences, you spent the whole post painting resale as equivalent to piracy in order to drive your point. So, your opinions on comprehension aside, establishing that there is in fact a legal difference between piracy and resale provides a counterweight of accuracy to the misinformation you are putting out there.
Now, another flaw with the quoted, that also exists with piracy, is the fact that one resale equals one lost first-hand sale. As purely anecdotal evidence, I have at least a handful of games I would not have ever purchased had they not been in the used game bin for cheap prices. Now, having owned these games, I know of at least one that I have purchased downloadable content for. So, in my scenario, I've actually paid the developer/publisher for something they would otherwise have not gotten my money for even though they did not get the first sale on the game. Seems to me they actually made out better thanks to resale. To that end, I am perfectly willing to concede that my situation might not be typical of the majority, or maybe, as we are moving to more DLC content, and continued revenue from existing titles, I am representative of a larger number of gamers...who knows.
The industry has had decades to account for the fact resales are legal. It's hard to paint them as a victim when they've had ample time to adjust. It's like the bad guy in Who Framed Roger Rabbit yelling at the steam roller as it is slowly moving toward him. Companies like Gamestop didn't just pop up this year and start taking a chunk out of studio profits. The solution to the perceived loss of revenue though, is not to punish the consumer for partaking in a legal activity, but instead to provide ongoing value for the product they purchased.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Originally posted by Rabenwolf buying used console games is no different than pirating a game.
Yeah, so when I buy a new car and then sell it, I'm pirating the car because I didn't give GM the money? How about this nice living room furniture I bought? Am I pirating the sofa when I sell it because I didn't send the furniture store a cut?
Don't talk about something when you don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about to begin with, dude.
When I buy a game, it's mine. I own it. If I want to burn it, use it for a frisbee, or sell it, it's my decision to do so.
When people are fed up with this kind of bullshit, and the stores like Gamestop start seeing they are being pushed out of business, there will be lawsuits. And the game companies WILL lose.
You are comparing car's to software? Really? Question, how much do you really know about game development?
A car, in case you forgot, is a utility and expected to be a long term investment. Auto makers make their vehicles based on demand.
The entertainment industry is completely different, and you should know better.
I am not sure you understand what it means to buy a game. It means you purchase the right to play their copywritten material. Do you get it? You dont own anything other than materials made to make the game. You cannot sell the license to play it. Again this is SOFTWARE. Waiting to buy used games and selling them after one play through has the exact same effect as piracy. What do you not understand about that? To buy used means you dont want to spend as much, why not go the extra mile and just pirate it then? Paying for it doesnt mean much if its not going to the developers and publishers who invested in the project.
I am not sure you understand the effect this is having on the industry. Publishers thought they were safe with consoles, they even raised the price of a console game higher and are now forcing content to be left out for DLC because of used game sales. Did you know used game sales have more of a negative impact than Piracy?
But hey, go ahead and play dumb if you wish. I dare you to go to next years GDC and suggest what you have, lets see what those under paid developers think of you.
And I suggest you keep up with current news of the last twenty or so years. Microsoft already lost the "you only get to use the software not own it" years ago in court. Software code may belong to the developer, but the game I buy made with that code is mine. The same way that the engine design made in Taiwan belongs to the mechanical engineering team, but the engine made from that design is mine when I buy it.
So I'm sorry if you feel bad about it, but that's the way it is. You have no argument. Period.
All this would be mute if the re-sellers like gamestop would throw a bone in sharing the resell profits a bit. They eventually will regret this and could start to be a company like blockbuster. Technology is growing everyday and the need for stores are dwindling and they will only have themselves to blame when the game companies wont need them any more.
Ive never bought the used car analogy because alot of the times its the same car company thats reselling the car, and they do wear out, where a game if taken care of can last a long time. But Im not arguing that people dont have a right a sell their games, but just dont whine when the game companies bypass stores and dvds so they can make a better profit off their work and not amazon or best buy re-sellers.
If i want a game I buy it, Full price, reduced price or used.
If there are no more used games ill just buy the reduced price ones 5 bucks more. If they take longer to reduce due to not having the money from used games then ill wait longer or buy the good games new.
I don't lose sleep over these guys, its only a video game.
publishers/developers are getting pretty greedy these days whats next are the car dealers and electronics retailers going to be demanding a piece of the pie when you resell your cars and tv's/computers lol
You are joking right? Developers are underpaid for the amount of money the game industry brings in.
I have been saying this all along, but buying used console games is no different than pirating a game. The Publisher/Developer will not benefit from it what so ever and it means one less new game sale. It would be the same as if you bought a game, beat it, gave it to a friend, they beat it, they gave it to someone else...ect If one person buys a game 10 people want to play, thats 9 sales lost. Same concept applies to piracy, doesnt matter if you lose money in the process, if the money doesnt go to the people who made the game its pointless.
Why do you think EA kept out content for used game sales on Mass Effect 2 unless they pay for it?
ok buddy whatever you I guess it must be true because "you" said it sry its a product like anything else and if your making so little money maybe you should try a career change oh and I guess you must also be saying buying used dvds from blockbuster and hollywood video is pirating also lmao
I understand how game makers can be upset on this one, but they honestly have no right to the money made on second hand sales. I understand that they own the rights to the game itself and all of its properties, but that particular copy that I bought is MINE, to do what I please with. Hell if I buy a game as a gift to someone, do I have to put the publisher/devs name on the wrapping???
That's the problem, technically .. it isn't.
You don't buy a game, you buy the licence to play a game. It's an EULA thing.
Don't remember agreeing to a EULA on any console games.
Nope, you won't .. check the wee text in the bottom-left on the back of one of your PS3 games.
"Resale and rental are prohibited unless expressly authorised by SCEE"
It's sneaky, but you agree to the EULA when you buy the product because the product packaging states that purchase of the product is dependant on the acceptance of the EULA.
You don't actually read the EULA, of course (no-one does) but that doesn't matter.
The text might be different depending on what country you're from, I'm quoting from an EU game.
Specific to the US, this is not a matter of EULA. The EULA does not allow a company to override law. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine the section titled "Computer Software" lists/links relevant case history establishing that First Sale Doctrine applies to software. That said, single-use codes and what not are a convenient circumvention of the spirit of the law, but I more wanted to address the idea that the EULA gives the producer/developer the ability to restrict resale.
I'm not familiar with US law, being from the UK .. but that's an interesting read, regardless.
I also noticed the following:
".. the court found the plaintiff's EULA, which prohibited resale, was binding on the defendants because "The defendants .. expressly consented to the terms of the EULA and Terms of Use by clicking 'I Agree' and 'Agree.'"
Seems like a bit of a grey area; your courts have ruled that EULAs aren't binding in some cases but are binding in others, and there isn't any mention of game software.
What a lot of people don't understand is that in the U.S. your rights are your rights whether you want them or not. You CAN NOT sign away/wave etc. your legal rights.
For example... I go to a rock climbing gym downtown, when I joined I signed a waiver stating that "rock climbing is dangerous, blah blah blah, management not liable for you busting your ass, blah blah." We've all signed waivers like that, and they all read like the point is that we hurt ourselves we can't sue. This is absolutely wrong. If this was the case, why is the owner (a friend of mine) paying out the ass for insurance? What's he insuring against? See, the point of the waiver is NOT so Dan can't be sued if someone hurts himself, people couldn't legally sign away they're rights if they wanted to, the point of the waiver is that if someone hurts themselves and sues, they can't used the arguement in court that they wheren't warned that climbing was dangerous, proving that the plaintiff understood the risk and was willing to accept the risk and liablity for said risk before engaing in the activity helps the defendant.
Likewise, 90% of everything in a EULA would not hold up in court. Ever. But here's what it REALLY means: it's means that the software makers contract with you says they don't have to support if you don't play by there rules (and ussually says they don't have to support you even if you do). A lot of software today (particularly anything with an online component) relies on the software providing a continuing service... which they wouldn't be legally obligated to do even if there was no EULA because any business has a legal right to refuse service to anyone at any time for any (or no) reason.
Once again the EULA doesn't (and legally can't) grant or revoke any parties legal rights, in fact in the case of a EULA it can't even be used in court as "you can't say you wheren't made aware" document because in the case of most software, you had to buy the software BEFORE you where presented the EULA, so it can't legally be considered a sales contract.
A EULA does ONE thing and ONE thing alone: It establishes that the software manufacturer is not liable for in any for any service related to the software. That's it. That's all it even can do. And that would still be true without the EULA.
The publisher or makers of the game do have a right to that money after all it is thier game. If I made a game and it got resold and I didnt see any money out of it I'd have a problem with it also...after all I made that game..I should benefit. Rememeber that companies have the right to sell the game but dont own rights to the game itself! I dont agree with limited installs or multiplayer rstrictions at all either. ( BBBBBBBWWWWWWWAAAAAHHHHHH raises plunger in salute to new clash of the titans Movie!)
Personal opinions aside, I believe this idea has been covered by law already:
The wikipedia article cites some specific cases relating to software.
You should know that laws can overturned......this means nothing.
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
All this would be mute if the re-sellers like gamestop would throw a bone in sharing the resell profits a bit. They eventually will regret this and could start to be a company like blockbuster. Technology is growing everyday and the need for stores are dwindling and they will only have themselves to blame when the game companies wont need them any more.
Ive never bought the used car analogy because alot of the times its the same car company thats reselling the car, and they do wear out, where a game if taken care of can last a long time. But Im not arguing that people dont have a right a sell their games, but just dont whine when the game companies bypass stores and dvds so they can make a better profit off their work and not amazon or best buy re-sellers.
I didnt state my case enough earlier very well at all and the used car anogly is a horrible one. Recently I traded my paid off Nissan Titan Back to get an Nissan Altima Coupe at a Nissan dealership. Nissan can resell my Titan to someone else. So thier anology doesnt nessarily apply. Computer games dont wear out and can re written to play on new system like the site Good old games. Cars, Comps, phones, tv's mechanics wear out over time. Games nesssarily dont. the word greed is thrown around like candy. Last time I checked people are allowed to make money (imo).
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
I didnt state my case enough earlier very well at all and the used car anogly is a horrible one. Recently I traded my paid off Nissan Titan Back to get an Nissan Altima Coupe at a Nissan dealership. Nissan can resell my Titan to someone else. So thier anology doesnt nessarily apply. Computer games dont wear out and can re written to play on new system like the site Good old games. Cars, Comps, phones, tv's mechanics wear out over time. Games nesssarily dont. the word greed is thrown around like candy. Last time I checked people are allowed to make money (imo).
The car analogy is indeed flawed, but your reasoning doesn't do much to illustrate that. By this, I mean, I am not compelled to sell my car back to the dealership. I can sell myself, to an independant used car lot (Car Stop?), or the dealership. Perhaps a solution would be for the game publishers to offer their own resale outlets. That'd be an interesting approach.
That said, a more direct comparison would be to the resale of movies and music which is also allowed. The movie and music industry are certainly allowed to make money off their product when they sell it. After that, the DVD/CD is mine to sell or keep. Now, if I got into copying, then sure, the industry has every right to go after that if it is not permitted. The same rules apply to the game industry.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Comments
That's a bit alarmist. Last year the video game market was projected to reach 57 billion dollars (findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2008_June_30/ai_n27874223/). Now, even if it missed that target by 50%, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be too hard pressed to find a company that would want to take a crack at making some of that money. ; )
edit: as a side note, the US revenue alone amounted to 19.66 Billion dollars in 2009 (gamer.blorge.com/2010/01/16/2009-video-game-industry-revenue-breakdown/).
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
as long as the classics like NES,N64 and more then i should list is not effected then this don't effect me. don't have PS3,PS2,WII or 360 and i use steam or retail for PC and there is no used pc game market from what i've seen wish there was.
You are joking right? Developers are underpaid for the amount of money the game industry brings in.
I have been saying this all along, but buying used console games is no different than pirating a game. The Publisher/Developer will not benefit from it what so ever and it means one less new game sale. It would be the same as if you bought a game, beat it, gave it to a friend, they beat it, they gave it to someone else...ect If one person buys a game 10 people want to play, thats 9 sales lost. Same concept applies to piracy, doesnt matter if you lose money in the process, if the money doesnt go to the people who made the game its pointless.
Why do you think EA kept out content for used game sales on Mass Effect 2 unless they pay for it?
Yeah, so when I buy a new car and then sell it, I'm pirating the car because I didn't give GM the money? How about this nice living room furniture I bought? Am I pirating the sofa when I sell it because I didn't send the furniture store a cut?
Don't talk about something when you don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about to begin with, dude.
When I buy a game, it's mine. I own it. If I want to burn it, use it for a frisbee, or sell it, it's my decision to do so.
When people are fed up with this kind of bullshit, and the stores like Gamestop start seeing they are being pushed out of business, there will be lawsuits. And the game companies WILL lose.
Pure Greed is about all that can be said.
If the Movie , Music and Gaming industry had their way we could only watch a movie once , listen to each track on a CD once and play through a game only once before having to purchase it again.
As for devs not getting paid enough.. I beg to differ. They make more than enough and just because the industry brings in shiny coin doesnt mean they need to be paid more.
Yeah, so when I buy a new car and then sell it, I'm pirating the car because I didn't give GM the money? How about this nice living room furniture I bought? Am I pirating the sofa when I sell it because I didn't send the furniture store a cut?
Don't talk about something when you don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about to begin with, dude.
When I buy a game, it's mine. I own it. If I want to burn it, use it for a frisbee, or sell it, it's my decision to do so.
When people are fed up with this kind of bullshit, and the stores like Gamestop start seeing they are being pushed out of business, there will be lawsuits. And the game companies WILL lose.
You are comparing car's to software? Really? Question, how much do you really know about game development?
A car, in case you forgot, is a utility and expected to be a long term investment. Auto makers make their vehicles based on demand.
The entertainment industry is completely different, and you should know better.
I am not sure you understand what it means to buy a game. It means you purchase the right to play their copywritten material. Do you get it? You dont own anything other than materials made to make the game. You cannot sell the license to play it. Again this is SOFTWARE. Waiting to buy used games and selling them after one play through has the exact same effect as piracy. What do you not understand about that? To buy used means you dont want to spend as much, why not go the extra mile and just pirate it then? Paying for it doesnt mean much if its not going to the developers and publishers who invested in the project.
I am not sure you understand the effect this is having on the industry. Publishers thought they were safe with consoles, they even raised the price of a console game higher and are now forcing content to be left out for DLC because of used game sales. Did you know used game sales have more of a negative impact than Piracy?
But hey, go ahead and play dumb if you wish. I dare you to go to next years GDC and suggest what you have, lets see what those under paid developers think of you.
I has very little to do with Greed. Greed isnt causing studio's to get shut down. Publishers have their fair share of bad management... but lets put this in perspective.
You make a AAA game that you poured all of your resources into. 2 million people play your game but only 600,000 bought your game. You look at the retailer who is getting the 2 million of your sales and they do not order any more off you. Tell me, what part of this is greed?
After the tickle down effect happens and the revenue is split up to the developers, the publishers, marketing, taxes..ect. Whats left if little for all and the chances are the Studio's next project wont get enough funding to keep their current staff. So developers get let go.
Do you know how common it is in this industry to get let go? Not because you are bad, or the game was horrible, but because the return wasnt great enough.
Lets put this into perspective, the video game industry on total brings in more revenue than the film, music, and tv industries combined. The retailer is taking a large chunk of that. I used to work in the film industry, a director for a mediocre film will make a couple million dollars easily. What do you think a creative director on a AAA top selling video game will make? I dont think you understand how little game developers get paid in light of the rest of the entertainment industry.
Are you a developer? If you were your tune would change...and fast.
Actually, as previously posted, US case law says no, it isn't. Now, providing an incentive for someone to be a "first hand" purchase is fine, but selling a game I bought is no different then selling a DVD or CD I bought. Both of which are perfectly find and established as legal activities (in the US at least. cannot speak for other countries copyright laws).
Short version, I would be more inclined to believe the legal experts who have come to the conclusion that it is, in fact, not like pirating.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I don't see how this is related to MMO's since MMORPG's need to be able to secure their game in ways such as using keys and it's really nothing new since games started going online. I don't know too many people that buy MMO's used and I really don't see it as a major problem. Sure, they may charge people with fees for any online related content, but you have to remember that these same people have to combat piracy and other people illegally distributing their game for free too.
You really should present both sides of the coin and I do find it a bit unrelated to MMO's in general since a lot of the focus of the games in question aren't MMO's.
thats easy, get rid of gamestop!
IN THE FACE!
I would personally care more if this situation weren't directly attributable to the actions of the game publishers.
The fact is that they defined the product that they would sell to you. A lot of people took a lot of time going over what this product was, how much it would make them, etc. They absolutely took into account that once they shipped that product, it would be out there in the world being played by someone. They knew that they were selling a product like most other businesses do, and they expected the product to be change hands like most other physical products.
So any situation they have with their business model is on their heads, because they were totally in charge all this time. Regarding additional expenses like online play and DLC, I have no sympathy for them there either. They put "Free Online Play!!1!" and "Free Downloadable Content!!11!!" right on the game box before they sold it. Therefore, that goes along with the product no matter who is playing it.
MMORPGs have always been hard to re-sell because you have to give away your password and account name, which leads to concerns about someone getting your credit card info since you used that to subscribe, and the value is often in the free month of subscription, which is gone in a used game.
But yea, games like Spore, and games on Steam suck.
I have Borderlands. I can give or sell it to you, you can load the game, put in the code that came in the box and play the game.
That's the way to do it.
Actually, as previously posted, US case law says no, it isn't. Now, providing an incentive for someone to be a "first hand" purchase is fine, but selling a game I bought is no different then selling a DVD or CD I bought. Both of which are perfectly find and established as legal activities (in the US at least. cannot speak for other countries copyright laws).
Short version, I would be more inclined to believe the legal experts who have come to the conclusion that it is, in fact, not like pirating.
Did you bother to actually read and comprehend my post? Its not about legality, its about the effect it has on the publisher. Cmon now, you are smarter than that i would hope.
For my consoles I almost always buy used. To me it is just like buyin cars used. Let someone else take it for a run n loose some money on it then I will pick it up for less.
I have to agree with some points. Places like Gamestop are at the point of reselling their popular used games for close to the same price as a brand new one. So they are rippin off the customer and the game devs. IMO get rid of the used game market...well people simply won't be as quick to buy a new title every month. Those who buy/power game then sell the game a month later, won't be as quick to buy a new title till they are sure it is worth the money. And those like myself who buy used console games, won't be as quick to buy new titles unless I get a really really good demo.
When it comes to PC games. I like having the CD around. Slower net connection makes for a quick install with cd. Those who think digital download is a great thing. Might not be singing the same tune when their net providers begin to limit the amount they can d/l. Or start charging for extra bandwidth used when everybody else needs to d/l games.
this is no biggie for me, i never trade in any of my games and never buy any used games.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Alright, for the sake of semantic excercises....Now, the whole post I replied to:
"I have been saying this all along, but buying used console games is no different than pirating a game. The Publisher/Developer will not benefit from it what so ever and it means one less new game sale. It would be the same as if you bought a game, beat it, gave it to a friend, they beat it, they gave it to someone else...ect If one person buys a game 10 people want to play, thats 9 sales lost. Same concept applies to piracy, doesnt matter if you lose money in the process, if the money doesnt go to the people who made the game its pointless."
Minus your leading and trailing sentences, you spent the whole post painting resale as equivalent to piracy in order to drive your point. So, your opinions on comprehension aside, establishing that there is in fact a legal difference between piracy and resale provides a counterweight of accuracy to the misinformation you are putting out there.
Now, another flaw with the quoted, that also exists with piracy, is the fact that one resale equals one lost first-hand sale. As purely anecdotal evidence, I have at least a handful of games I would not have ever purchased had they not been in the used game bin for cheap prices. Now, having owned these games, I know of at least one that I have purchased downloadable content for. So, in my scenario, I've actually paid the developer/publisher for something they would otherwise have not gotten my money for even though they did not get the first sale on the game. Seems to me they actually made out better thanks to resale. To that end, I am perfectly willing to concede that my situation might not be typical of the majority, or maybe, as we are moving to more DLC content, and continued revenue from existing titles, I am representative of a larger number of gamers...who knows.
The industry has had decades to account for the fact resales are legal. It's hard to paint them as a victim when they've had ample time to adjust. It's like the bad guy in Who Framed Roger Rabbit yelling at the steam roller as it is slowly moving toward him. Companies like Gamestop didn't just pop up this year and start taking a chunk out of studio profits. The solution to the perceived loss of revenue though, is not to punish the consumer for partaking in a legal activity, but instead to provide ongoing value for the product they purchased.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Yeah, so when I buy a new car and then sell it, I'm pirating the car because I didn't give GM the money? How about this nice living room furniture I bought? Am I pirating the sofa when I sell it because I didn't send the furniture store a cut?
Don't talk about something when you don't have a freaking clue what you're talking about to begin with, dude.
When I buy a game, it's mine. I own it. If I want to burn it, use it for a frisbee, or sell it, it's my decision to do so.
When people are fed up with this kind of bullshit, and the stores like Gamestop start seeing they are being pushed out of business, there will be lawsuits. And the game companies WILL lose.
You are comparing car's to software? Really? Question, how much do you really know about game development?
A car, in case you forgot, is a utility and expected to be a long term investment. Auto makers make their vehicles based on demand.
The entertainment industry is completely different, and you should know better.
I am not sure you understand what it means to buy a game. It means you purchase the right to play their copywritten material. Do you get it? You dont own anything other than materials made to make the game. You cannot sell the license to play it. Again this is SOFTWARE. Waiting to buy used games and selling them after one play through has the exact same effect as piracy. What do you not understand about that? To buy used means you dont want to spend as much, why not go the extra mile and just pirate it then? Paying for it doesnt mean much if its not going to the developers and publishers who invested in the project.
I am not sure you understand the effect this is having on the industry. Publishers thought they were safe with consoles, they even raised the price of a console game higher and are now forcing content to be left out for DLC because of used game sales. Did you know used game sales have more of a negative impact than Piracy?
But hey, go ahead and play dumb if you wish. I dare you to go to next years GDC and suggest what you have, lets see what those under paid developers think of you.
And I suggest you keep up with current news of the last twenty or so years. Microsoft already lost the "you only get to use the software not own it" years ago in court. Software code may belong to the developer, but the game I buy made with that code is mine. The same way that the engine design made in Taiwan belongs to the mechanical engineering team, but the engine made from that design is mine when I buy it.
So I'm sorry if you feel bad about it, but that's the way it is. You have no argument. Period.
All this would be mute if the re-sellers like gamestop would throw a bone in sharing the resell profits a bit. They eventually will regret this and could start to be a company like blockbuster. Technology is growing everyday and the need for stores are dwindling and they will only have themselves to blame when the game companies wont need them any more.
Ive never bought the used car analogy because alot of the times its the same car company thats reselling the car, and they do wear out, where a game if taken care of can last a long time. But Im not arguing that people dont have a right a sell their games, but just dont whine when the game companies bypass stores and dvds so they can make a better profit off their work and not amazon or best buy re-sellers.
This wont have an affect on me at all.
If i want a game I buy it, Full price, reduced price or used.
If there are no more used games ill just buy the reduced price ones 5 bucks more. If they take longer to reduce due to not having the money from used games then ill wait longer or buy the good games new.
I don't lose sleep over these guys, its only a video game.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
You are joking right? Developers are underpaid for the amount of money the game industry brings in.
I have been saying this all along, but buying used console games is no different than pirating a game. The Publisher/Developer will not benefit from it what so ever and it means one less new game sale. It would be the same as if you bought a game, beat it, gave it to a friend, they beat it, they gave it to someone else...ect If one person buys a game 10 people want to play, thats 9 sales lost. Same concept applies to piracy, doesnt matter if you lose money in the process, if the money doesnt go to the people who made the game its pointless.
Why do you think EA kept out content for used game sales on Mass Effect 2 unless they pay for it?
ok buddy whatever you I guess it must be true because "you" said it sry its a product like anything else and if your making so little money maybe you should try a career change oh and I guess you must also be saying buying used dvds from blockbuster and hollywood video is pirating also lmao
That's the problem, technically .. it isn't.
You don't buy a game, you buy the licence to play a game. It's an EULA thing.
Don't remember agreeing to a EULA on any console games.
Nope, you won't .. check the wee text in the bottom-left on the back of one of your PS3 games.
"Resale and rental are prohibited unless expressly authorised by SCEE"
It's sneaky, but you agree to the EULA when you buy the product because the product packaging states that purchase of the product is dependant on the acceptance of the EULA.
You don't actually read the EULA, of course (no-one does) but that doesn't matter.
The text might be different depending on what country you're from, I'm quoting from an EU game.
Specific to the US, this is not a matter of EULA. The EULA does not allow a company to override law. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine the section titled "Computer Software" lists/links relevant case history establishing that First Sale Doctrine applies to software. That said, single-use codes and what not are a convenient circumvention of the spirit of the law, but I more wanted to address the idea that the EULA gives the producer/developer the ability to restrict resale.
I'm not familiar with US law, being from the UK .. but that's an interesting read, regardless.
I also noticed the following:
".. the court found the plaintiff's EULA, which prohibited resale, was binding on the defendants because "The defendants .. expressly consented to the terms of the EULA and Terms of Use by clicking 'I Agree' and 'Agree.'"
Seems like a bit of a grey area; your courts have ruled that EULAs aren't binding in some cases but are binding in others, and there isn't any mention of game software.
What a lot of people don't understand is that in the U.S. your rights are your rights whether you want them or not. You CAN NOT sign away/wave etc. your legal rights.
For example... I go to a rock climbing gym downtown, when I joined I signed a waiver stating that "rock climbing is dangerous, blah blah blah, management not liable for you busting your ass, blah blah." We've all signed waivers like that, and they all read like the point is that we hurt ourselves we can't sue. This is absolutely wrong. If this was the case, why is the owner (a friend of mine) paying out the ass for insurance? What's he insuring against? See, the point of the waiver is NOT so Dan can't be sued if someone hurts himself, people couldn't legally sign away they're rights if they wanted to, the point of the waiver is that if someone hurts themselves and sues, they can't used the arguement in court that they wheren't warned that climbing was dangerous, proving that the plaintiff understood the risk and was willing to accept the risk and liablity for said risk before engaing in the activity helps the defendant.
Likewise, 90% of everything in a EULA would not hold up in court. Ever. But here's what it REALLY means: it's means that the software makers contract with you says they don't have to support if you don't play by there rules (and ussually says they don't have to support you even if you do). A lot of software today (particularly anything with an online component) relies on the software providing a continuing service... which they wouldn't be legally obligated to do even if there was no EULA because any business has a legal right to refuse service to anyone at any time for any (or no) reason.
Once again the EULA doesn't (and legally can't) grant or revoke any parties legal rights, in fact in the case of a EULA it can't even be used in court as "you can't say you wheren't made aware" document because in the case of most software, you had to buy the software BEFORE you where presented the EULA, so it can't legally be considered a sales contract.
A EULA does ONE thing and ONE thing alone: It establishes that the software manufacturer is not liable for in any for any service related to the software. That's it. That's all it even can do. And that would still be true without the EULA.
Active: WoW
Semi-retired: STO
Fully retired: UO, EQ, AC, SWG, FFXI, DDO:EU, PoTBS, AoC, EvE
Tried: EQ2, Tabula Rasa, Auto-Assault, Isteria, LotRO, Wizard 101
Looking forward to: Star Citizen
Personal opinions aside, I believe this idea has been covered by law already:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
The wikipedia article cites some specific cases relating to software.
You should know that laws can overturned......this means nothing.
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Until such time as the law is overturned, this means everything.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
The car analogy is indeed flawed, but your reasoning doesn't do much to illustrate that. By this, I mean, I am not compelled to sell my car back to the dealership. I can sell myself, to an independant used car lot (Car Stop?), or the dealership. Perhaps a solution would be for the game publishers to offer their own resale outlets. That'd be an interesting approach.
That said, a more direct comparison would be to the resale of movies and music which is also allowed. The movie and music industry are certainly allowed to make money off their product when they sell it. After that, the DVD/CD is mine to sell or keep. Now, if I got into copying, then sure, the industry has every right to go after that if it is not permitted. The same rules apply to the game industry.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence