1) Easier to level -> a good thing if there are enough to do at the end game. No one want to grind a week just to see the xp bar moves a notch
2) Shorter raids -> That is a god sent. Few has the luxury to commit to 3-4 hrs straight for a GAME. In fact, it is better to break up longer raids into smaller, shorter ones so more people can enjoy. If you really want difficult content, go play hard mode. You will wipe, wipe & wipe.
Like most posts, the points brought up in this thread are utterly subjective. Many of the things the OP rails against I consider plusses in an MMO. To each his own, but it is utterly wrong to state that these points are wrong for MMOs, when they are only wrong for the OP and those who share that point-of-view. Obviously, a lot of people must enjoy the things that the OP says do not belong in MMOs, or those MMOs wouldn't be popular. I like fast easy levelling. I find it fun to 'ding' and then gain access to a new ability every few hours instead of every few days. I find slow levelling to a boring slogfest. I am very grateful for instancing. Goodbye to the days of spawn-camping and mob-stealing. If I wanted to compete in an MMO, I'd play PvP. I do not want any player vs player competition in my PvE. Raids are too short? For me, they are not yet short enough. Five hours is, IMO, ludicrous. I'm going to psuedo-quote Hitchcock and say that raids should be no longer than the average person's bladder endurance. He was referring to movies, but in other words, two hours tops. The point I'm making is that the OP is stating what he prefers in MMOs but claims that it is right for all MMOs, when clearly this is incorrect. Variety is the spice of life, to each his own, etc etc.
What SwampRob said. I play MMOs to relax and experience a big beautiful immervsive world. I'm also time constrained with regard to MMOs. Instancing and the other "shorter" features work for me. I also don't PvP. Having PvP in a game is great, as long as I don't have to experience it. As I said before, I figure that the PvP in GW helps to pay for the game I want to play.
Everyone has different ideas of fun, and what theyy want to be very hard or very long. I'd never denigrate the Eve players or the Darkfall players (those games seem too hard and too rough for me) -- it's their game, their world. If it works for the players I'm happy for them. But -- my choices are my choices. Why would anyone think that another player is either stupid or lazy because they don't want what you want?
As for the prevailing standard, what kind of game gets made nowadays -- well, welcome to popular culture. Sometimes you are a perfect fit for what lots of people want. Sometimes you aren't. That's how it it. Sometimes something that I liked, a game, a TV show, it went away because the expense of making it didn't result in the numbers needed -- the numbers of people playing a game or watching the TV show wasn't enough to pay for the thing and make a profit. You can bemoan it, yes, but that's how it is. I've made my peace with popular culture a long time ago -- sometimes what lots of people want is a fit for me, sometimes it's not.
And -- unless I'm wrong -- it doesn't seem to me that all MMORPGs are all that easy. There may be less super hard or super time consuming ones, but I didn't think they were all getting easier or less time consuming.
The other thing one can look for, and push for, is better development tools. I think the thing is to look to see if the industry is heading towards better tools so that MMORPGs can be made cheaper -- something like the Multiverse platform thing. What you want is a world where a game with a very small number of subscribers (maybe a couple of thousand) can be a great game where enough money is made that it can stay in business. Along with a big expensive game like Star Wars the Old Republic, I'm hoping for more viable niche MMOs, something to give more players more choices.
It's not really that games have become too easy, it's that players have gotten used to MMORPG's, and people (along with computer scripts & bots) have become much much more advanced.
You take EQ1 from 1999 and launch it today, people will breeze through 50 levels in less than a week. I can guarantee you that. This is because people know how to play MMO's now, people know how to setup macros and shortcut keys, people know how to build complex scripts/bots that will kill mobs for them. The old days are gone where people were mostly innocent. Aside from someone exploiting a bug ingame that gave them leveling advantage, people really had to do it all manually. Now these days you won't find many people playing MMO's without addons, macros, special keyboards, bots, etc..
Now yes, developers can artificially tweak & expand the exp necessary to gain levels to try to slow people down. But all this will do is to frustrate legit gamers that don't bot. People would be crying about asian grind games faster than you can say Lineage. Seriously it doesn't work today anymore. EQ1 was my fav game of all time, but even I can say there's no way I can go back to the way it was. My lifestyle wouldn't allow it, my body wouldn't let me stay up 'til 4-5am in the morning and still perform well at work next day. It really is best to remember the old days as they were, and understand that things change.
Time commitment is not the same as challenge. Unless you consider ass sitting a compettive sport. I personally call it the United States government.....
I think the question is what is a challenge? Or more so, what is a good challenge and what is a bad challenge.
Penn and Teller once released a game called dessert Buss. Basicly you get to drive a bus from Tucson, Arizona to Las Vegas, Nevada in real time at a maximum speed of 45mph. It's 8 hours of nothing, but road and slightly correcting the course of the buss. This is a game so dull that "a bug splating on the windscreen about five hours through the first trip" is concidered the height of excitement. It's a pure trial by boredom, I would probably never play it, but does that make it challenging? Perhaps, but I think we can agree that it's not a very interesting challenge. If the fundamental game play is not challenging, then making it last for n hours will only ad a very shallow challenge.
One could make similar points out of other ways to create "challenges". Arbitrarily losing or winning is not a good challenge, some random chance is good, but not when it decides everything. The controlls and UI should not in themselves be an obstacle, here it's worthwile to note the diffrence between bad controlls and controlls that are hard to master. We could go on.
I think Axehilt in his insistance on meaningful choice is close to what constitutes good challenge.
On the other hand how many of the "challenging games" are merely Desert Bus in disguise?
Don't forget the fact that you could not pause or save the game and the 'death penalty' meant that you had to start the entire trip from the beginning. That's probably as 'hardcore' as it gets.
It's not really that games have become too easy, it's that players have gotten used to MMORPG's, and people (along with computer scripts & bots) have become much much more advanced.
You take EQ1 from 1999 and launch it today, people will breeze through 50 levels in less than a week. I can guarantee you that. This is because people know how to play MMO's now, people know how to setup macros and shortcut keys, people know how to build complex scripts/bots that will kill mobs for them. The old days are gone where people were mostly innocent. Aside from someone exploiting a bug ingame that gave them leveling advantage, people really had to do it all manually. Now these days you won't find many people playing MMO's without addons, macros, special keyboards, bots, etc..
Now yes, developers can artificially tweak & expand the exp necessary to gain levels to try to slow people down. But all this will do is to frustrate legit gamers that don't bot. People would be crying about asian grind games faster than you can say Lineage. Seriously it doesn't work today anymore. EQ1 was my fav game of all time, but even I can say there's no way I can go back to the way it was. My lifestyle wouldn't allow it, my body wouldn't let me stay up 'til 4-5am in the morning and still perform well at work next day. It really is best to remember the old days as they were, and understand that things change.
Time commitment is not the same as challenge. Unless you consider ass sitting a compettive sport. I personally call it the United States government.....
At any rate, MMORPGs have never been difficult. Clicking on more greens to level up slower is just a monotonous time sink. Challenge is derived from other things. A battle can last five minutes or five hours, it's how close you came to losing and how well you recovered or scrapped by that makes it epic or not.
To give an old shool example, the last dungeon of the original Phantasy Star for the Sega Master system was challenging. The whole game only took 20 hours start to finish, but getting to the end was damn near impossible. Especially near then end where ever battle was a fight for survival and your inventory was extremely limited. On top of that, if you warped out, you would have to grind your way all the way back through the Tower of Baya Malay AND Lassic's Palace. Even if you did manage to make it through all of that alive, you still had to go back to the Governer's Mansion, now filled with insanely overpowered monsters, and defeat Dark Fallz. It didn't matter how much time you invested in the game. What mattered was your strategies and resource management. That's what CRPGs are really, resource management games.
Unfortunately, MMORPGs have always been about the treadmill and not the gameplay. And I hate to break it to you, but treadmills just aren't challenging.
Except it's not the time commitment i'm complaining about but lack of challenge.
When you are leveling in most modern MMORPGs, can you even die? Really, if I go afk with a few NPCs on me, I can probably come back in 2 minutes and still be alive.
To wipe in a group you would have to have several group members go afk at the same time. You don't even need all your characters there to clear them half of the time.
The difference between old MMORPGs and new one isn't just time based. They've made newer MMORPGs so stupid that you can't even die. Know why older ones had a "timesink"? Because you could actually die and lose experience. Because a PVE fight wasn't a guaranteed win.
Had less to do with time than it does the fact that PVE content wasn't predictable. Green con NPCs in EQ are tougher than what you fight in most WoW raid instances.
QFT. People whose mmo experience is WoW have no idea what original EQ was like. I actually waited on spawns for a week, much less being able to get to max level lol.
Of course, now that SOE nerfed it and cash shopped it up with helper NPCS, you might be able to level up in a week these days. I can't say because I played it when it was new.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
The net effect of instancing is for everyone to have the same gear. So games like WoW would rather have people who have the same items than 1 guild having better gear than another guild. Sure they've equalized things, but made it boring for the people who could actually do the difficult content. How is it fair to good players?
the net effect of instancing is for everyone to have the same chances at getting gear. The idea of "superl33t basement dwellers" guild camping X boss 24/7/365 is dead in the water. People voted with their wallets, and apparently where thousands though that spending your saturday nights in a virtual world was funnier than getting out (and wondering whats so good about getting some nookie anyway), millions upon millions think otherwise.
about WoW specifically, there is still plenty of hard to get gear and difficult content to do. What they do are sweeping gear balance. Thats what makes WoW so successful, and I find amazing that some people are so dense to not understand thats what any game NEEDS, a sort of ladder reset where newcomers always get a chance.
If you disagree you can always play games like WAR, which apparently side with you in that gear balances arent needed. feel free to get your newly created lvl32 toon to tier 4 and face people RR80 and sovereign geared,you will die 500 hundred times per battle, once every 1 microseconds.
and your only chance to survive enough to set a foot on the battlefield is to put the same year and a half they put...just this time while being faceraped constantly.
there is a reason why games like WoW become history, and games like WAR are this close (|----|) to kick the bucket.
[Mod Edit]
I don't play WAR.
WoW was really dumbed down basically, since 2004/2005. They ditched 40 mans because people couldn't even clear newb zones like Molten Core... shows you who the audience of WoW is.
Now those same people who couldn't handle Molten Core are there clearing the "toughest" raid zones. Wonder how that one happened?
At least in Everquest they didn't cater to the newbies like this.. this is pathetic. You didn't see expansions coming out with easy mode content, they just got tougher and tougher.
What happened to MMORPGs where you actually had to progress through the raids in a sequence? Seems like in WoW you can pick any newb raid zone you want and you can clear it no matter how trashy you are or your gear is.
What kind of MMORPG is it when you get to the end you have nothing to progress toward because all you have is a choice of instances that are all similar difficulty? It's like you just pick and choose what gear you want and go into the instances. There should be things to work toward in MMORPGs, and there just isn't anything to work toward in WoW besides picking and choosing what gear you want. There is no "we need to get this gear to clear that instance" anymore.
I guess actually putting effort into an MMORPG is too hard for the carebears and casuals. Because they want to be the same as people who put effort into the game without actually putting the effort in. They make the game dumbed down for the rest of us because they can't have the same gear, because they are too lazy to work for what they get.
The way I see it, the MMORPG market is simply cleansing itself of flawed design artifacts left over from the days when limited technology and design know-how required the devs to use weak mechanics to keep players playing.
Leveling through getting xp is a fairly weak metric of measuring player progress and giving out rewards. having players grind out xp to gain levels is insulting to the intelligence of the players and let's the devs be lazy about giving players challenges. Levels and progression should be based on how well a player can play their character and how skillful they have become. Grinding xp for levels should be left to the brainless since it is dumbing down the genre.
Grinding xp is only brainless in brainless MMORPGs.
Take away the exp system, and you'll just have a bunch of newbies who are max level. What do they have against leveling up besides their own lack of skill?
Leveling up is an adventure, and is fun, when the MMORPG actually requires effort and requires you to pay attention when you are playing.
Now in WoW, of course it is brainless. Why do you think so many PUG raids are horrible in WoW? Bad players couldn't be filtered out by a brainless leveling system. Those people who are 80 in WoW, who have their Grand Marshal/Brutal Gladiator or other useless title, they wouldn't even be able to figure out how to travel from one zone to another in Everquest.
Like most posts, the points brought up in this thread are utterly subjective. Many of the things the OP rails against I consider plusses in an MMO. To each his own, but it is utterly wrong to state that these points are wrong for MMOs, when they are only wrong for the OP and those who share that point-of-view.
Obviously, a lot of people must enjoy the things that the OP says do not belong in MMOs, or those MMOs wouldn't be popular.
I like fast easy levelling. I find it fun to 'ding' and then gain access to a new ability every few hours instead of every few days. I find slow levelling to a boring slogfest.
I am very grateful for instancing. Goodbye to the days of spawn-camping and mob-stealing. If I wanted to compete in an MMO, I'd play PvP. I do not want any player vs player competition in my PvE.
Raids are too short? For me, they are not yet short enough. Five hours is, IMO, ludicrous. I'm going to psuedo-quote Hitchcock and say that raids should be no longer than the average person's bladder endurance. He was referring to movies, but in other words, two hours tops.
The point I'm making is that the OP is stating what he prefers in MMOs but claims that it is right for all MMOs, when clearly this is incorrect. Variety is the spice of life, to each his own, etc etc.
I agree.
The way to making a successful MMORPG, is by pleasing both the Casual players and the hard core player.
WoW does this well, but the OP ignores that.
Many hardcore player have failed at the hands of the Lich King. So how is that easy?
Most casual players are running PvP,Dungons,Heroics, or early raiding.
Some are even twinking out the lower lvls.
So this again points to things Developer need to realize. To make a successful MMORPG, you have to have multiple Endgame paths. Not just 1 or 2.
Imagine a game were all the mobs are vulnerable to a certain type of damage, it could be fire, ice, blunt, pierce and so on. and every time you fought mobs you learned how to take them down easyer because you have weapons and magic that do those types of damage. call it trial and error then remembering and shareing with your friends on what to use against them.
you didnt just carry around your omg leet epic sword and pwn all. you had to have different weapons on you at all times because groups of mobs could have different types of creatures vulnerable to different elements.
what if it took skill to hunt creatures, you had to know your opponent even in PVE. if he was a archer you needed to keep moving while you cast spells so you have a chance to dodge his arrows ( yes you can dodge arrows and magic !! omg !! skill ?? ) if you were a melee then make sure you have that shield out to help defend against those arrows while you strafe and move in to attack.
would that be more fun ? would that be more of a challenge ?
Oh another EQ was such the roxxer game thead. EQ tried to being single player aspects into a multi-player world which has screwed up the genre since.
LOL! Just wow....
There was a time when there was more then just a mind numbing level grinding, a time when character strength was more then level the person behind the avatar had to think, a time when mmo were more then a single player game with a multi-player facade. But I guess most young mmo gamers don't realize there was a time before EQ.
Oh another EQ was such the roxxer game thead. EQ tried to being single player aspects into a multi-player world which has screwed up the genre since.
LOL! Just wow....
There was a time when there was more then just a mind numbing level grinding, a time when character strength was more then level the person behind the avatar had to think, a time when mmo were more then a single player game with a multi-player facade. But I guess most young mmo gamers don't realize there was a time before EQ.
Well, I'm the same age as you, so your younger comment goes out the window. Secondly, I am aware there was a time before EQ...MUD's, even Tabletop which I played (D&D/RIFTS), even played Meridian 59...but to say what you said about EQ was just silly. It took more grouping than it did soloing to get things accomplished. Sure, I soloed sometimes, but it usually made more sense and faster progression to group.
If anything has screwed up the genre, yeah, maybe EQ's PoP started it with it's multiple instant portals, etc, but today's "instant gratification" crowd, combined with companies greed levels is what is screwing up the genre more than anything. Just look at certain MMO's and their lack of challenge and allowing everyone to be on the same level no matter if your lazy or a persistant player. As well as any MMO that has any inkling of challenge being whined about until it's changed. No innovation or imagination put into them, just whatever cookie cutter build works to rake in the cash is used, because developer's know that even if people complain about it, they will still pay, so why change what (To them) isn't broken.
Like most posts, the points brought up in this thread are utterly subjective. Many of the things the OP rails against I consider plusses in an MMO. To each his own, but it is utterly wrong to state that these points are wrong for MMOs, when they are only wrong for the OP and those who share that point-of-view.
Obviously, a lot of people must enjoy the things that the OP says do not belong in MMOs, or those MMOs wouldn't be popular.
I like fast easy levelling. I find it fun to 'ding' and then gain access to a new ability every few hours instead of every few days. I find slow levelling to a boring slogfest.
I am very grateful for instancing. Goodbye to the days of spawn-camping and mob-stealing. If I wanted to compete in an MMO, I'd play PvP. I do not want any player vs player competition in my PvE.
Raids are too short? For me, they are not yet short enough. Five hours is, IMO, ludicrous. I'm going to psuedo-quote Hitchcock and say that raids should be no longer than the average person's bladder endurance. He was referring to movies, but in other words, two hours tops.
The point I'm making is that the OP is stating what he prefers in MMOs but claims that it is right for all MMOs, when clearly this is incorrect. Variety is the spice of life, to each his own, etc etc.
I agree.
The way to making a successful MMORPG, is by pleasing both the Casual players and the hard core player.
WoW does this well, but the OP ignores that.
Many hardcore player have failed at the hands of the Lich King. So how is that easy?
Most casual players are running PvP,Dungons,Heroics, or early raiding.
Some are even twinking out the lower lvls.
So this again points to things Developer need to realize. To make a successful MMORPG, you have to have multiple Endgame paths. Not just 1 or 2.
Lol, Lich King is tough?
Even if you kill the hardest endgame stuff in WoW, some newbie can just 2 man arena all day and have the same gear.
Gear advantages from the most difficult content are negligible in WoW, so complete newbies have the same gear as the best players.
Really, if a guild completes something at difficulty level 10, and some newbies go clear something that is difficulty level 1, why is it that the difficulty level 10 stuff is only 4-5% better than the difficulty level 1 stuff?
Oh, because most people in WoW are bad and have to have the same gear even though they can't do the same content.
Like most posts, the points brought up in this thread are utterly subjective. Many of the things the OP rails against I consider plusses in an MMO. To each his own, but it is utterly wrong to state that these points are wrong for MMOs, when they are only wrong for the OP and those who share that point-of-view.
Obviously, a lot of people must enjoy the things that the OP says do not belong in MMOs, or those MMOs wouldn't be popular.
I like fast easy levelling. I find it fun to 'ding' and then gain access to a new ability every few hours instead of every few days. I find slow levelling to a boring slogfest.
I am very grateful for instancing. Goodbye to the days of spawn-camping and mob-stealing. If I wanted to compete in an MMO, I'd play PvP. I do not want any player vs player competition in my PvE.
Raids are too short? For me, they are not yet short enough. Five hours is, IMO, ludicrous. I'm going to psuedo-quote Hitchcock and say that raids should be no longer than the average person's bladder endurance. He was referring to movies, but in other words, two hours tops.
The point I'm making is that the OP is stating what he prefers in MMOs but claims that it is right for all MMOs, when clearly this is incorrect. Variety is the spice of life, to each his own, etc etc.
I agree.
The way to making a successful MMORPG, is by pleasing both the Casual players and the hard core player.
WoW does this well, but the OP ignores that.
Many hardcore player have failed at the hands of the Lich King. So how is that easy?
Most casual players are running PvP,Dungons,Heroics, or early raiding.
Some are even twinking out the lower lvls.
So this again points to things Developer need to realize. To make a successful MMORPG, you have to have multiple Endgame paths. Not just 1 or 2.
Lol, Lich King is tough?
Even if you kill the hardest endgame stuff in WoW, some newbie can just 2 man arena all day and have the same gear.
Gear advantages from the most difficult content are negligible in WoW, so complete newbies have the same gear as the best players.
Really, if a guild completes something at difficulty level 10, and some newbies go clear something that is difficulty level 1, why is it that the difficulty level 10 stuff is only 4-5% better than the difficulty level 1 stuff?
Oh, because most people in WoW are bad and have to have the same gear even though they can't do the same content.
Like most posts, the points brought up in this thread are utterly subjective. Many of the things the OP rails against I consider plusses in an MMO. To each his own, but it is utterly wrong to state that these points are wrong for MMOs, when they are only wrong for the OP and those who share that point-of-view.
Obviously, a lot of people must enjoy the things that the OP says do not belong in MMOs, or those MMOs wouldn't be popular.
I like fast easy levelling. I find it fun to 'ding' and then gain access to a new ability every few hours instead of every few days. I find slow levelling to a boring slogfest.
I am very grateful for instancing. Goodbye to the days of spawn-camping and mob-stealing. If I wanted to compete in an MMO, I'd play PvP. I do not want any player vs player competition in my PvE.
Raids are too short? For me, they are not yet short enough. Five hours is, IMO, ludicrous. I'm going to psuedo-quote Hitchcock and say that raids should be no longer than the average person's bladder endurance. He was referring to movies, but in other words, two hours tops.
The point I'm making is that the OP is stating what he prefers in MMOs but claims that it is right for all MMOs, when clearly this is incorrect. Variety is the spice of life, to each his own, etc etc.
I agree.
The way to making a successful MMORPG, is by pleasing both the Casual players and the hard core player.
WoW does this well, but the OP ignores that.
Many hardcore player have failed at the hands of the Lich King. So how is that easy?
Most casual players are running PvP,Dungons,Heroics, or early raiding.
Some are even twinking out the lower lvls.
So this again points to things Developer need to realize. To make a successful MMORPG, you have to have multiple Endgame paths. Not just 1 or 2.
Lol, Lich King is tough?
Even if you kill the hardest endgame stuff in WoW, some newbie can just 2 man arena all day and have the same gear.
Gear advantages from the most difficult content are negligible in WoW, so complete newbies have the same gear as the best players.
Really, if a guild completes something at difficulty level 10, and some newbies go clear something that is difficulty level 1, why is it that the difficulty level 10 stuff is only 4-5% better than the difficulty level 1 stuff?
Oh, because most people in WoW are bad and have to have the same gear even though they can't do the same content.
[Mod Edit]
LOL that gave me a laugh.
Feel better now that you vented your WoW hate?
For most WoW players, I bet it is tough. Like I said, the quality is low.
Coming from a guild that was easily in the top 10 in terms of world firsts, I have to say that the difficulty level of WoW content has always been decreasing.
Before, bad players couldn't even step foot into zones like AQ or Naxx, or they knew enough not to step in. Now, they are present in all zones. Wouldn't even be able to clear the AQ trash mobs pre-nerf.
Like most posts, the points brought up in this thread are utterly subjective. Many of the things the OP rails against I consider plusses in an MMO. To each his own, but it is utterly wrong to state that these points are wrong for MMOs, when they are only wrong for the OP and those who share that point-of-view.
Obviously, a lot of people must enjoy the things that the OP says do not belong in MMOs, or those MMOs wouldn't be popular.
I like fast easy levelling. I find it fun to 'ding' and then gain access to a new ability every few hours instead of every few days. I find slow levelling to a boring slogfest.
I am very grateful for instancing. Goodbye to the days of spawn-camping and mob-stealing. If I wanted to compete in an MMO, I'd play PvP. I do not want any player vs player competition in my PvE.
Raids are too short? For me, they are not yet short enough. Five hours is, IMO, ludicrous. I'm going to psuedo-quote Hitchcock and say that raids should be no longer than the average person's bladder endurance. He was referring to movies, but in other words, two hours tops.
The point I'm making is that the OP is stating what he prefers in MMOs but claims that it is right for all MMOs, when clearly this is incorrect. Variety is the spice of life, to each his own, etc etc.
I agree.
The way to making a successful MMORPG, is by pleasing both the Casual players and the hard core player.
WoW does this well, but the OP ignores that.
Many hardcore player have failed at the hands of the Lich King. So how is that easy?
Most casual players are running PvP,Dungons,Heroics, or early raiding.
Some are even twinking out the lower lvls.
So this again points to things Developer need to realize. To make a successful MMORPG, you have to have multiple Endgame paths. Not just 1 or 2.
Lol, Lich King is tough?
Even if you kill the hardest endgame stuff in WoW, some newbie can just 2 man arena all day and have the same gear.
Gear advantages from the most difficult content are negligible in WoW, so complete newbies have the same gear as the best players.
Really, if a guild completes something at difficulty level 10, and some newbies go clear something that is difficulty level 1, why is it that the difficulty level 10 stuff is only 4-5% better than the difficulty level 1 stuff?
Oh, because most people in WoW are bad and have to have the same gear even though they can't do the same content.
[Mod Edit]
LOL that gave me a laugh.
Feel better now that you vented your WoW hate?
For most WoW players, I bet it is tough. Like I said, the quality is low.
Coming from a guild that was easily in the top 10 in terms of world firsts, I have to say that the difficulty level of WoW content has always been decreasing.
Before, bad players couldn't even step foot into zones like AQ or Naxx, or they knew enough not to step in. Now, they are present in all zones. Wouldn't even be able to clear the AQ trash mobs pre-nerf.
Well top 10 guilds make up of what ... 2000 players? That is neglible in terms of the player pop. Of course Blizzard should NOT cater to such a small group.
It is a GAME aimed at entertaining a lot of people, not a niche hand-eye coordination test for a few thousand players. If you don't like it, don't play it.
Did society change to one of instant gratification, no-one-can-lose, everyone must be the same and hence influence MMO design or did MMOs change to be instant gratification, no-one-can-lose, everyone must be the same and hence society followed.
I think it is quite safe to say that the society is what has changed. The entire culture of "everyone is the best" has become so prevalent that school sports days no longer use the term "winner" because it lowers the self-esteem of those children who did not come first. The most prevalent insults these days revolve around losing (loser, fail, etc) - surprising really because in my day they were pretty much all sexually explicit
Society is breeding a generation of cotton-wool wrapped babies who are sheltered from everything bad. Not only does this set them up for a pretty big fall when they actually enter the real world and find that they will actually have to compete for a job - everyone doesn't just get one automatically, but it instils them with a huge sense of entitlement and superiority.
These children, and adults as some of them moving out of their teens, are increasingly playing online games - as society moves more and more online with everything it does. MMOs have changed design to suit this ever-growing playerbase - a playerbase that demands everything NOW, that expects everything everyone else has, that feels that they are actually actively being deprived of something if they don't have it, that feels that if they cannot achieve something first time it must be broken or made too hard and must be changed.
More people play WoW than any other MMO? People keep slamming it for this fact. But it is the one MMO that has changed to reflect the society from which it draws it's players. WoW has changed drastically in it's 5 years of life and it has changed to support the growing population of gamers. Has it changed for the worse or has it simply changed to give it's playerbase what they want? After all there are still an awful lot of people still playing the game.
A question we should ask ourselves is: Should MMOs attempt to be arbiters of social change or should they simply cater to what their players want? We constantly say on these very forums that developers should listen more to what their playerbase wants.
Having said all that though, there is most definitely an audience that is totally disaffected with the current trend of pandering to those who see challenge as something inherently bad. The problem though is that this audience is badly fractured when it comes to it's goals and until this group becomes large enough to be able to sustain a AAA title being developed specifically for it then we will continue to have second-rate MMOs developed by indie studios who might have their hearts in the right place but simply don't have the funds to back their vision up
Like most posts, the points brought up in this thread are utterly subjective. Many of the things the OP rails against I consider plusses in an MMO. To each his own, but it is utterly wrong to state that these points are wrong for MMOs, when they are only wrong for the OP and those who share that point-of-view.
Obviously, a lot of people must enjoy the things that the OP says do not belong in MMOs, or those MMOs wouldn't be popular.
I like fast easy levelling. I find it fun to 'ding' and then gain access to a new ability every few hours instead of every few days. I find slow levelling to a boring slogfest.
I am very grateful for instancing. Goodbye to the days of spawn-camping and mob-stealing. If I wanted to compete in an MMO, I'd play PvP. I do not want any player vs player competition in my PvE.
Raids are too short? For me, they are not yet short enough. Five hours is, IMO, ludicrous. I'm going to psuedo-quote Hitchcock and say that raids should be no longer than the average person's bladder endurance. He was referring to movies, but in other words, two hours tops.
The point I'm making is that the OP is stating what he prefers in MMOs but claims that it is right for all MMOs, when clearly this is incorrect. Variety is the spice of life, to each his own, etc etc.
I agree.
The way to making a successful MMORPG, is by pleasing both the Casual players and the hard core player.
WoW does this well, but the OP ignores that.
Many hardcore player have failed at the hands of the Lich King. So how is that easy?
Most casual players are running PvP,Dungons,Heroics, or early raiding.
Some are even twinking out the lower lvls.
So this again points to things Developer need to realize. To make a successful MMORPG, you have to have multiple Endgame paths. Not just 1 or 2.
Lol, Lich King is tough?
Even if you kill the hardest endgame stuff in WoW, some newbie can just 2 man arena all day and have the same gear.
Gear advantages from the most difficult content are negligible in WoW, so complete newbies have the same gear as the best players.
Really, if a guild completes something at difficulty level 10, and some newbies go clear something that is difficulty level 1, why is it that the difficulty level 10 stuff is only 4-5% better than the difficulty level 1 stuff?
Oh, because most people in WoW are bad and have to have the same gear even though they can't do the same content.
[Mod Edit]
Troll more please. If you going to argue something, at least make the slightest attempt to make a decent argument. First off, PvP gears and PvE gears are most definately not the same. Bring a full arena gear into a raid is a surefire way to get get ass booted from the team. Second, do you even have the slightest idea how much different 4-5 percent really mean? 5 percent more damage, 5 percent more mana, 5 percent more hitpoints. When you added all of this together, that measely 5 percent there is enough to tip the scale so that one side would almost always win while the other will inevitiably fail most of the attempt.
Another retarded assumptions that people like you alway screaming is that casual somehow able to get the same epic gears as the hardcore raider is beyond stupid. Get it into your head that instance epic, raid epic, and heroic epic are all different and should never be considered to be in the same league as one another. Saying all epic gears are the same is like saying the "President" of the student activity club is the same as the "President" of the school.
A question we should ask ourselves is: Should MMOs attempt to be arbiters of social change or should they simply cater to what their players want? We constantly say on these very forums that developers should listen more to what their playerbase wants.
Isn't it obvious? MMOs are games, entertainment. No more and no less. Of course it should be FUN according to its database. If you think it has any deeper meaning, there is a rude awakening down the road for you.
Did society change to one of instant gratification, no-one-can-lose, everyone must be the same and hence influence MMO design or did MMOs change to be instant gratification, no-one-can-lose, everyone must be the same and hence society followed.
I think it is quite safe to say that the society is what has changed. The entire culture of "everyone is the best" has become so prevalent that school sports days no longer use the term "winner" because it lowers the self-esteem of those children who did not come first. The most prevalent insults these days revolve around losing (loser, fail, etc) - surprising really because in my day they were pretty much all sexually explicit
Society is breeding a generation of cotton-wool wrapped babies who are sheltered from everything bad. Not only does this set them up for a pretty big fall when they actually enter the real world and find that they will actually have to compete for a job - everyone doesn't just get one automatically, but it instils them with a huge sense of entitlement and superiority.
These children, and adults as some of them moving out of their teens, are increasingly playing online games - as society moves more and more online with everything it does. MMOs have changed design to suit this ever-growing playerbase - a playerbase that demands everything NOW, that expects everything everyone else has, that feels that they are actually actively being deprived of something if they don't have it, that feels that if they cannot achieve something first time it must be broken or made too hard and must be changed.
More people play WoW than any other MMO? People keep slamming it for this fact. But it is the one MMO that has changed to reflect the society from which it draws it's players. WoW has changed drastically in it's 5 years of life and it has changed to support the growing population of gamers. Has it changed for the worse or has it simply changed to give it's playerbase what they want? After all there are still an awful lot of people still playing the game.
A question we should ask ourselves is: Should MMOs attempt to be arbiters of social change or should they simply cater to what their players want? We constantly say on these very forums that developers should listen more to what their playerbase wants.
Having said all that though, there is most definitely an audience that is totally disaffected with the current trend of pandering to those who see challenge as something inherently bad. The problem though is that this audience is badly fractured when it comes to it's goals and until this group becomes large enough to be able to sustain a AAA title being developed specifically for it then we will continue to have second-rate MMOs developed by indie studios who might have their hearts in the right place but simply don't have the funds to back their vision up
110% agree.
It is sad but true that society has groomed it's children in this day and age to only accept victory and not defeat as well to learn lessons from it, so the games now reflect that generation making them all mostly "I win" games with little challenge and effort needed to be put forth. Hell, I played 11 years of soccer, out of those 11 years I was only on a winning team twice! It made me a stronger person with more character to gracefully accept defeat and learn and adapt from it. But it also made it that much sweeter when victory came to me and my team(s). Now a days, even the losing team receives trophies. What does that teach these players? To me, only that you don't have to put in a lot of effort to get what you want, so why try...it sends the wrong message IMO. Same goes for games, and any other competitive genre.
IMO...In the process, they are doing away with MMORPG's all together trying to follow this trend of "instant gratification", "Now now now" gamers. Companies don't care because greed rules all in this society now, not just mere profit (Especially with the current world economy woes), and players don't care because either they are younger and haven't played MMO's prior to WoW (Not a slam on WoW, just saying that is where most of this generation started their MMO experience) and don't know what the idea and mechanics behind an MMO were/are, or it's older players accepting the change because they have jobs now, children, etc, and feel they don't have the time to dedicate like they use to..as well as feel they shouldn't progress even slower than the games they came up with prior to WoW for $15 a month because of the lack of time they have....but still have that love for them. And that is ok for them to feel that way, but I don't think most realize what it is doing to those who still love the effort that was once needed to stand out in such games and make them exciting worlds to explore, etc. They are all becoming console RPG's, hence making this once very separate and unique genre become extinct in the process.
I have a full time job, I have a 13 yr. old daughter, I have a GF (I am a divorcee), I have full time school (Game art & Design as a matter of fact! =P), but I STILL would love to see another MMO come along with challenge, with a truly open world...yes, with all the things I loved about EQ. But also, with a lot of the great features that were improved upon by today's MMO's like an easier to use UI (Like WoW's), better combat features (Like AoC), better graphics (Like Aion and many others), better social trees developed (As EQ's had), better crafting (Like Vanguard's system), better quests lines, etc. THIS type of mmo would be worth the investment of time and money to me, and I am sure to many others too.
May have to wait for it, hence why I currently am not playing an MMO. None of them now are worth $50-$60 out of pocket initally, and then $15 a month. But alas, like every other thread I have seen, it falls on deaf ears, and people like us are just told it won't happen due to investor's blah blah blah. We can't have opinions and/or one MMO to cater to our style of play because the selfish don't care to listen. They think every MMORPG should be casual. It's like paying $50-$60 for a game you have already beaten. I am willing to bet if one company took the time and could talk these greedy investor's into it and made such a game it would do well. But, sadly, I think it just isn't going to happen anytime soon, and that frustrates me and many others on these boards. And it also is why you see so many people that hate WoW, because it is the biggest example of this modern trend, so it is the biggest target. It also doesn't help that it's community is incapable of comprimise and/or understanding of how anyone else feels and flame you if you have even the slightest negative thing to say about WoW or any other MMO's massive lean towards "instant gratification" and why it isn't good all the time. Sigh...
Comments
Easy = more sales because if everyone can play it that means everyone can buy it. This isn't rocket science!
The OP is out of touch to the world.
1) Easier to level -> a good thing if there are enough to do at the end game. No one want to grind a week just to see the xp bar moves a notch
2) Shorter raids -> That is a god sent. Few has the luxury to commit to 3-4 hrs straight for a GAME. In fact, it is better to break up longer raids into smaller, shorter ones so more people can enjoy. If you really want difficult content, go play hard mode. You will wipe, wipe & wipe.
What SwampRob said. I play MMOs to relax and experience a big beautiful immervsive world. I'm also time constrained with regard to MMOs. Instancing and the other "shorter" features work for me. I also don't PvP. Having PvP in a game is great, as long as I don't have to experience it. As I said before, I figure that the PvP in GW helps to pay for the game I want to play.
Everyone has different ideas of fun, and what theyy want to be very hard or very long. I'd never denigrate the Eve players or the Darkfall players (those games seem too hard and too rough for me) -- it's their game, their world. If it works for the players I'm happy for them. But -- my choices are my choices. Why would anyone think that another player is either stupid or lazy because they don't want what you want?
As for the prevailing standard, what kind of game gets made nowadays -- well, welcome to popular culture. Sometimes you are a perfect fit for what lots of people want. Sometimes you aren't. That's how it it. Sometimes something that I liked, a game, a TV show, it went away because the expense of making it didn't result in the numbers needed -- the numbers of people playing a game or watching the TV show wasn't enough to pay for the thing and make a profit. You can bemoan it, yes, but that's how it is. I've made my peace with popular culture a long time ago -- sometimes what lots of people want is a fit for me, sometimes it's not.
And -- unless I'm wrong -- it doesn't seem to me that all MMORPGs are all that easy. There may be less super hard or super time consuming ones, but I didn't think they were all getting easier or less time consuming.
The other thing one can look for, and push for, is better development tools. I think the thing is to look to see if the industry is heading towards better tools so that MMORPGs can be made cheaper -- something like the Multiverse platform thing. What you want is a world where a game with a very small number of subscribers (maybe a couple of thousand) can be a great game where enough money is made that it can stay in business. Along with a big expensive game like Star Wars the Old Republic, I'm hoping for more viable niche MMOs, something to give more players more choices.
Regards,
mszv
It's not really that games have become too easy, it's that players have gotten used to MMORPG's, and people (along with computer scripts & bots) have become much much more advanced.
You take EQ1 from 1999 and launch it today, people will breeze through 50 levels in less than a week. I can guarantee you that. This is because people know how to play MMO's now, people know how to setup macros and shortcut keys, people know how to build complex scripts/bots that will kill mobs for them. The old days are gone where people were mostly innocent. Aside from someone exploiting a bug ingame that gave them leveling advantage, people really had to do it all manually. Now these days you won't find many people playing MMO's without addons, macros, special keyboards, bots, etc..
Now yes, developers can artificially tweak & expand the exp necessary to gain levels to try to slow people down. But all this will do is to frustrate legit gamers that don't bot. People would be crying about asian grind games faster than you can say Lineage. Seriously it doesn't work today anymore. EQ1 was my fav game of all time, but even I can say there's no way I can go back to the way it was. My lifestyle wouldn't allow it, my body wouldn't let me stay up 'til 4-5am in the morning and still perform well at work next day. It really is best to remember the old days as they were, and understand that things change.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
I think the question is what is a challenge? Or more so, what is a good challenge and what is a bad challenge.
Penn and Teller once released a game called dessert Buss. Basicly you get to drive a bus from Tucson, Arizona to Las Vegas, Nevada in real time at a maximum speed of 45mph. It's 8 hours of nothing, but road and slightly correcting the course of the buss. This is a game so dull that "a bug splating on the windscreen about five hours through the first trip" is concidered the height of excitement. It's a pure trial by boredom, I would probably never play it, but does that make it challenging? Perhaps, but I think we can agree that it's not a very interesting challenge. If the fundamental game play is not challenging, then making it last for n hours will only ad a very shallow challenge.
One could make similar points out of other ways to create "challenges". Arbitrarily losing or winning is not a good challenge, some random chance is good, but not when it decides everything. The controlls and UI should not in themselves be an obstacle, here it's worthwile to note the diffrence between bad controlls and controlls that are hard to master. We could go on.
I think Axehilt in his insistance on meaningful choice is close to what constitutes good challenge.
On the other hand how many of the "challenging games" are merely Desert Bus in disguise?
Don't forget the fact that you could not pause or save the game and the 'death penalty' meant that you had to start the entire trip from the beginning. That's probably as 'hardcore' as it gets.
Breeze through EQ in a week? LOL
Yeah, typical defense... "Time committment != Challenge"
Except it's not the time commitment i'm complaining about but lack of challenge.
When you are leveling in most modern MMORPGs, can you even die? Really, if I go afk with a few NPCs on me, I can probably come back in 2 minutes and still be alive.
To wipe in a group you would have to have several group members go afk at the same time. You don't even need all your characters there to clear them half of the time.
The difference between old MMORPGs and new one isn't just time based. They've made newer MMORPGs so stupid that you can't even die. Know why older ones had a "timesink"? Because you could actually die and lose experience. Because a PVE fight wasn't a guaranteed win.
Had less to do with time than it does the fact that PVE content wasn't predictable. Green con NPCs in EQ are tougher than what you fight in most WoW raid instances.
QFT. People whose mmo experience is WoW have no idea what original EQ was like. I actually waited on spawns for a week, much less being able to get to max level lol.
Of course, now that SOE nerfed it and cash shopped it up with helper NPCS, you might be able to level up in a week these days. I can't say because I played it when it was new.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I don't play WAR.
WoW was really dumbed down basically, since 2004/2005. They ditched 40 mans because people couldn't even clear newb zones like Molten Core... shows you who the audience of WoW is.
Now those same people who couldn't handle Molten Core are there clearing the "toughest" raid zones. Wonder how that one happened?
At least in Everquest they didn't cater to the newbies like this.. this is pathetic. You didn't see expansions coming out with easy mode content, they just got tougher and tougher.
What happened to MMORPGs where you actually had to progress through the raids in a sequence? Seems like in WoW you can pick any newb raid zone you want and you can clear it no matter how trashy you are or your gear is.
What kind of MMORPG is it when you get to the end you have nothing to progress toward because all you have is a choice of instances that are all similar difficulty? It's like you just pick and choose what gear you want and go into the instances. There should be things to work toward in MMORPGs, and there just isn't anything to work toward in WoW besides picking and choosing what gear you want. There is no "we need to get this gear to clear that instance" anymore.
I guess actually putting effort into an MMORPG is too hard for the carebears and casuals. Because they want to be the same as people who put effort into the game without actually putting the effort in. They make the game dumbed down for the rest of us because they can't have the same gear, because they are too lazy to work for what they get.
Grinding xp is only brainless in brainless MMORPGs.
Take away the exp system, and you'll just have a bunch of newbies who are max level. What do they have against leveling up besides their own lack of skill?
Leveling up is an adventure, and is fun, when the MMORPG actually requires effort and requires you to pay attention when you are playing.
Now in WoW, of course it is brainless. Why do you think so many PUG raids are horrible in WoW? Bad players couldn't be filtered out by a brainless leveling system. Those people who are 80 in WoW, who have their Grand Marshal/Brutal Gladiator or other useless title, they wouldn't even be able to figure out how to travel from one zone to another in Everquest.
Oh another EQ was such the roxxer game thead. EQ tried to being single player aspects into a multi-player world which has screwed up the genre since.
LOL! Just wow....
I agree.
The way to making a successful MMORPG, is by pleasing both the Casual players and the hard core player.
WoW does this well, but the OP ignores that.
Many hardcore player have failed at the hands of the Lich King. So how is that easy?
Most casual players are running PvP,Dungons,Heroics, or early raiding.
Some are even twinking out the lower lvls.
So this again points to things Developer need to realize. To make a successful MMORPG, you have to have multiple Endgame paths. Not just 1 or 2.
Imagine a game were all the mobs are vulnerable to a certain type of damage, it could be fire, ice, blunt, pierce and so on. and every time you fought mobs you learned how to take them down easyer because you have weapons and magic that do those types of damage. call it trial and error then remembering and shareing with your friends on what to use against them.
you didnt just carry around your omg leet epic sword and pwn all. you had to have different weapons on you at all times because groups of mobs could have different types of creatures vulnerable to different elements.
what if it took skill to hunt creatures, you had to know your opponent even in PVE. if he was a archer you needed to keep moving while you cast spells so you have a chance to dodge his arrows ( yes you can dodge arrows and magic !! omg !! skill ?? ) if you were a melee then make sure you have that shield out to help defend against those arrows while you strafe and move in to attack.
would that be more fun ? would that be more of a challenge ?
i like to think so.
There was a time when there was more then just a mind numbing level grinding, a time when character strength was more then level the person behind the avatar had to think, a time when mmo were more then a single player game with a multi-player facade. But I guess most young mmo gamers don't realize there was a time before EQ.
Well, I'm the same age as you, so your younger comment goes out the window. Secondly, I am aware there was a time before EQ...MUD's, even Tabletop which I played (D&D/RIFTS), even played Meridian 59...but to say what you said about EQ was just silly. It took more grouping than it did soloing to get things accomplished. Sure, I soloed sometimes, but it usually made more sense and faster progression to group.
If anything has screwed up the genre, yeah, maybe EQ's PoP started it with it's multiple instant portals, etc, but today's "instant gratification" crowd, combined with companies greed levels is what is screwing up the genre more than anything. Just look at certain MMO's and their lack of challenge and allowing everyone to be on the same level no matter if your lazy or a persistant player. As well as any MMO that has any inkling of challenge being whined about until it's changed. No innovation or imagination put into them, just whatever cookie cutter build works to rake in the cash is used, because developer's know that even if people complain about it, they will still pay, so why change what (To them) isn't broken.
Did I somehow time travel to 2004?
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Lol, Lich King is tough?
Even if you kill the hardest endgame stuff in WoW, some newbie can just 2 man arena all day and have the same gear.
Gear advantages from the most difficult content are negligible in WoW, so complete newbies have the same gear as the best players.
Really, if a guild completes something at difficulty level 10, and some newbies go clear something that is difficulty level 1, why is it that the difficulty level 10 stuff is only 4-5% better than the difficulty level 1 stuff?
Oh, because most people in WoW are bad and have to have the same gear even though they can't do the same content.
[Mod Edit]
LOL that gave me a laugh.
Feel better now that you vented your WoW hate?
For most WoW players, I bet it is tough. Like I said, the quality is low.
Coming from a guild that was easily in the top 10 in terms of world firsts, I have to say that the difficulty level of WoW content has always been decreasing.
Before, bad players couldn't even step foot into zones like AQ or Naxx, or they knew enough not to step in. Now, they are present in all zones. Wouldn't even be able to clear the AQ trash mobs pre-nerf.
Well top 10 guilds make up of what ... 2000 players? That is neglible in terms of the player pop. Of course Blizzard should NOT cater to such a small group.
It is a GAME aimed at entertaining a lot of people, not a niche hand-eye coordination test for a few thousand players. If you don't like it, don't play it.
Did society change to one of instant gratification, no-one-can-lose, everyone must be the same and hence influence MMO design or did MMOs change to be instant gratification, no-one-can-lose, everyone must be the same and hence society followed.
I think it is quite safe to say that the society is what has changed. The entire culture of "everyone is the best" has become so prevalent that school sports days no longer use the term "winner" because it lowers the self-esteem of those children who did not come first. The most prevalent insults these days revolve around losing (loser, fail, etc) - surprising really because in my day they were pretty much all sexually explicit
Society is breeding a generation of cotton-wool wrapped babies who are sheltered from everything bad. Not only does this set them up for a pretty big fall when they actually enter the real world and find that they will actually have to compete for a job - everyone doesn't just get one automatically, but it instils them with a huge sense of entitlement and superiority.
These children, and adults as some of them moving out of their teens, are increasingly playing online games - as society moves more and more online with everything it does. MMOs have changed design to suit this ever-growing playerbase - a playerbase that demands everything NOW, that expects everything everyone else has, that feels that they are actually actively being deprived of something if they don't have it, that feels that if they cannot achieve something first time it must be broken or made too hard and must be changed.
More people play WoW than any other MMO? People keep slamming it for this fact. But it is the one MMO that has changed to reflect the society from which it draws it's players. WoW has changed drastically in it's 5 years of life and it has changed to support the growing population of gamers. Has it changed for the worse or has it simply changed to give it's playerbase what they want? After all there are still an awful lot of people still playing the game.
A question we should ask ourselves is: Should MMOs attempt to be arbiters of social change or should they simply cater to what their players want? We constantly say on these very forums that developers should listen more to what their playerbase wants.
Having said all that though, there is most definitely an audience that is totally disaffected with the current trend of pandering to those who see challenge as something inherently bad. The problem though is that this audience is badly fractured when it comes to it's goals and until this group becomes large enough to be able to sustain a AAA title being developed specifically for it then we will continue to have second-rate MMOs developed by indie studios who might have their hearts in the right place but simply don't have the funds to back their vision up
Troll more please. If you going to argue something, at least make the slightest attempt to make a decent argument. First off, PvP gears and PvE gears are most definately not the same. Bring a full arena gear into a raid is a surefire way to get get ass booted from the team. Second, do you even have the slightest idea how much different 4-5 percent really mean? 5 percent more damage, 5 percent more mana, 5 percent more hitpoints. When you added all of this together, that measely 5 percent there is enough to tip the scale so that one side would almost always win while the other will inevitiably fail most of the attempt.
Another retarded assumptions that people like you alway screaming is that casual somehow able to get the same epic gears as the hardcore raider is beyond stupid. Get it into your head that instance epic, raid epic, and heroic epic are all different and should never be considered to be in the same league as one another. Saying all epic gears are the same is like saying the "President" of the student activity club is the same as the "President" of the school.
A question we should ask ourselves is: Should MMOs attempt to be arbiters of social change or should they simply cater to what their players want? We constantly say on these very forums that developers should listen more to what their playerbase wants.
Isn't it obvious? MMOs are games, entertainment. No more and no less. Of course it should be FUN according to its database. If you think it has any deeper meaning, there is a rude awakening down the road for you.
110% agree.
It is sad but true that society has groomed it's children in this day and age to only accept victory and not defeat as well to learn lessons from it, so the games now reflect that generation making them all mostly "I win" games with little challenge and effort needed to be put forth. Hell, I played 11 years of soccer, out of those 11 years I was only on a winning team twice! It made me a stronger person with more character to gracefully accept defeat and learn and adapt from it. But it also made it that much sweeter when victory came to me and my team(s). Now a days, even the losing team receives trophies. What does that teach these players? To me, only that you don't have to put in a lot of effort to get what you want, so why try...it sends the wrong message IMO. Same goes for games, and any other competitive genre.
IMO...In the process, they are doing away with MMORPG's all together trying to follow this trend of "instant gratification", "Now now now" gamers. Companies don't care because greed rules all in this society now, not just mere profit (Especially with the current world economy woes), and players don't care because either they are younger and haven't played MMO's prior to WoW (Not a slam on WoW, just saying that is where most of this generation started their MMO experience) and don't know what the idea and mechanics behind an MMO were/are, or it's older players accepting the change because they have jobs now, children, etc, and feel they don't have the time to dedicate like they use to..as well as feel they shouldn't progress even slower than the games they came up with prior to WoW for $15 a month because of the lack of time they have....but still have that love for them. And that is ok for them to feel that way, but I don't think most realize what it is doing to those who still love the effort that was once needed to stand out in such games and make them exciting worlds to explore, etc. They are all becoming console RPG's, hence making this once very separate and unique genre become extinct in the process.
I have a full time job, I have a 13 yr. old daughter, I have a GF (I am a divorcee), I have full time school (Game art & Design as a matter of fact! =P), but I STILL would love to see another MMO come along with challenge, with a truly open world...yes, with all the things I loved about EQ. But also, with a lot of the great features that were improved upon by today's MMO's like an easier to use UI (Like WoW's), better combat features (Like AoC), better graphics (Like Aion and many others), better social trees developed (As EQ's had), better crafting (Like Vanguard's system), better quests lines, etc. THIS type of mmo would be worth the investment of time and money to me, and I am sure to many others too.
May have to wait for it, hence why I currently am not playing an MMO. None of them now are worth $50-$60 out of pocket initally, and then $15 a month. But alas, like every other thread I have seen, it falls on deaf ears, and people like us are just told it won't happen due to investor's blah blah blah. We can't have opinions and/or one MMO to cater to our style of play because the selfish don't care to listen. They think every MMORPG should be casual. It's like paying $50-$60 for a game you have already beaten. I am willing to bet if one company took the time and could talk these greedy investor's into it and made such a game it would do well. But, sadly, I think it just isn't going to happen anytime soon, and that frustrates me and many others on these boards. And it also is why you see so many people that hate WoW, because it is the biggest example of this modern trend, so it is the biggest target. It also doesn't help that it's community is incapable of comprimise and/or understanding of how anyone else feels and flame you if you have even the slightest negative thing to say about WoW or any other MMO's massive lean towards "instant gratification" and why it isn't good all the time. Sigh...