As an example, here is an article about a business model that makes Cryptic's behavior seem less strange. In a nutshell, the idea is to put out a core game after 6-12 months, and do an "early live" in order to initiate "customer development" i.e. the approach of letting the user request features to the software, a very common approach in business IT. The customer development approach has advantages and disadvantages compared to traditional development, but it is not necessarily inferior. I think I am going to put this link in my signature.
EXCELLENT point! I know how software development works (though not for games) and in general businessess are taking the 'agile' approach rather than the very-outdated 'waterfall method'. Yes, you don't get as many features out-the-door early, but the drastically shorter iterations between each subsequent release and faster feedback pays dividends in the longer term.
Unfortunately most people won't see where this is coming from at all.
I'm pretty positive that Cryptic will make improvements over the next 6 months or so. They're hardly going to let a huge IP like this go to waste now are they?
I have to say I'm quite enjoying STO as it is actually, but probably only as a secondary MMO (my main is LotRO). I'm more of a casual player these days but can understand why 'hard core' players could be disappointed by STO as it stands at the moment. I did think during closed beta that "the game wasn't ready for release" (but still had seen enough to know I'd like it).
The first major patch/expansion/whatever-you-want-to-call-it will be an interesting milestone but I'd certainly give it a good 6-12 months before giving up! Maybe return every couple of months?
Anyhow, here's hoping Cryptic/Atari can take on-board the more constructive criticisms and make something of them. I'm certainy in this one for the long-term.
As i was reading this... I found something interesting about the... "Taking offense" thing. I found that a load of bull shit. If you create a game, that isn't well... Good, you should know your going to receive some bad reviews... In this case a lot of them. Learn from your mistakes and build upon em. I find it a little silly and sad that they would take offense to this. Whatever, that is just my opinion.
Given the nature of how most MMOs start STO has done relatively well. Also consdiering no Star Trek game (not just MMO, but GAME) has come anywhere near to being good. STO has done a wonderful job, and they have received praises to that effect. Is the game perfect?... no. Is there room for improvement?... yes, a lot of it. BUT (and this is the big 'but') everyones interpretation of Star Trek is different. I initially thought it missed the mark as well, I have more recently gone back and watched through Voyager, TNG, and even DS9. Honestly, everyone interpretation of Star Trek is going to be different, but as for following the nature of writting and continuity established by the shows Cryptic has done a good job. Yes, they could certainly d oa bit to improve it, but saying it doesn't feel like Trek is just a very illogical thing to say. I think they have captures the essence of Trek rather well, it needs to be evolved and refined a bit; but it is there. I agree with them, they should take offense to that. they should also learn from it. Create different tiers of play based on differing view points of what is Trek. They have a long road to go to get all the content everyone expects in, but I think they can manage it. I stated this immediatley after NDA dropped from CB, and I believe it is still true, this game will be a major success about 3 to 4 xpacks in. Until then a lot of people are going to complain that the contents just not there, and to be honest it won't be. But very few MMOs launch with all the desired content (take that as good or bad, but it is true). Cryptic is merely following its own path to get everything in the game on their schedule.
Here is an interesting new podcast from Jack Emmert. He says that STO has over 100k subs (for now). He seems genuinely hurt, humbled, and embarassd by the bad reception of these recent games. But even though he says he is offended that people called Cryptic greedy, later he says things that show his greedy way of thinking ("number one, I always think of the company, the people come first", etc). He specifically says that Cryptic will be doing a lot of soul searching, and it is my pleasure to announce to you all the good news (for most), straight from Jack Emmert in the podcast I linked:
Official: Original games coming next from Cryptic, not licensed IPs.
100K subs is worse than City of Heroes (125-150K.) I'm not sure I believe those numbers, if they are true then STO is in dire, dire straights because most AAA MMOs retain far more than 100K subs even years and years after launch.
Only AAA mmo's that i know of that retain far more than 100k subs atm are wow, eve and i think runescape for their various reasons. I also think war has a couple hundred k subs but it's still pretty young and also has falling numbers
last time i logged into lotro during free week i counted 10ppl so i guess their sub numbers count the lifetimers aswell
d&do lost so many it had to go f2p
AOC has managed to get itself up to 50k now i heard
eq2 is being killed of by soe
swg, well the less said about that the better
however they all had into the hundred k's for over a year(with the exception of aoc) and far more this soon after launch as far as i know
Puzzles are a big part of Star Trek, and in general the major thing that is lacking in STO. There needs to be three types of puzzles: Scientific, Engineering, and Diplomatic. Scientific is more trying to figure out how to get out of a situation or make a situation work. Figure out that B doesn't have to follow A to complete the picture, and in some respects test our knowledge of the universe around us. Engineering puzzles should be a bit more hands on, putting the proper pieces together on a device, organizing energy patterns in a certain way, etc. Diplomatic puzzles should work a little more like combat in that you engage an NPC on a diplomatic front and negotiate your way of a situation, of course if you fail this will lead to a fire fight.
These three types of puzzles need to be available to all classes, and should rely somewhat on Bofs to complete them.
Also do somethign with anomilies, EQ2 has collection quests from shinies, something like that could rely be worked in well with how star trek works. Find pieces of a ship scattered across a sector and once you have them all it offer you a quest.
Yes! These are excellent suggestions! It would also be cool if your character could gain a reputation for rtesolving things diplomatically like Picard, or kicking ass, like Sisko.
Here is an interesting new podcast from Jack Emmert. He says that STO has over 100k subs (for now). He seems genuinely hurt, humbled, and embarassd by the bad reception of these recent games. But even though he says he is offended that people called Cryptic greedy, later he says things that show his greedy way of thinking ("number one, I always think of the company, the people come first", etc). He specifically says that Cryptic will be doing a lot of soul searching, and it is my pleasure to announce to you all the good news (for most), straight from Jack Emmert in the podcast I linked:
Official: Original games coming next from Cryptic, not licensed IPs.
100K subs is worse than City of Heroes (125-150K.) I'm not sure I believe those numbers, if they are true then STO is in dire, dire straights because most AAA MMOs retain far more than 100K subs even years and years after launch.
Only AAA mmo's that i know of that retain far more than 100k subs atm are wow, eve and i think runescape for their various reasons. I also think war has a couple hundred k subs but it's still pretty young and also has falling numbers
last time i logged into lotro during free week i counted 10ppl so i guess their sub numbers count the lifetimers aswell
d&do lost so many it had to go f2p
AOC has managed to get itself up to 50k now i heard
eq2 is being killed of by soe
swg, well the less said about that the better
however they all had into the hundred k's for over a year(with the exception of aoc) and far more this soon after launch as far as i know
The problem with depllomacy in ST is that it is massive. Each race had there own quirks and you had to handle them differently.
That is a massive task that I don`t think they have the team for.
Really the whole IP is too massive for cryptic to handle. Especially when spread out over 2-3 games. If it had been a dedicated single MMO company, that could focus on the game for a while, then maybe it could have been much more.
Played WOW (5 years), AOC, AO, EQ2,AC2, Horizons, Saga of Ryzom, SWG, CO, STO(Beta),ROM, Allods, and many other F2P titles. Asl been in beta for many of the main titles and played countless SP games. I have been gaming for 15+ years!
If you take offense to something your customers say, wisdom is to keep your feelings to yourself. The people who bought your games are your customers, not your friends. The fact that you apparently cannot make this distinction is one reason you've gained the negative reputation that you have. Frankly, we don't care if you're offended.
Tehy should be offended because STO is a horrible game and NOT an MMO! It's a single-player game.
Puzzles are a big part of Star Trek, and in general the major thing that is lacking in STO. There needs to be three types of puzzles: Scientific, Engineering, and Diplomatic. Scientific is more trying to figure out how to get out of a situation or make a situation work. Figure out that B doesn't have to follow A to complete the picture, and in some respects test our knowledge of the universe around us. Engineering puzzles should be a bit more hands on, putting the proper pieces together on a device, organizing energy patterns in a certain way, etc. Diplomatic puzzles should work a little more like combat in that you engage an NPC on a diplomatic front and negotiate your way of a situation, of course if you fail this will lead to a fire fight.
These three types of puzzles need to be available to all classes, and should rely somewhat on Bofs to complete them.
Also do somethign with anomilies, EQ2 has collection quests from shinies, something like that could rely be worked in well with how star trek works. Find pieces of a ship scattered across a sector and once you have them all it offer you a quest.
Yes! These are excellent suggestions! It would also be cool if your character could gain a reputation for rtesolving things diplomatically like Picard, or kicking ass, like Sisko.
Why aren't you a STO dev??
No one has petitioned Cryptic for them to hire me... well, get on it. Would love to work for them and implement my ideas. ^_^
Yea the current accolades system isn't good, but giving players that option would be nice. They also should implement a Federation records network, so you can look up other players, their bios, their ships, their bofs, their crew etc. I think this is a way down the road, but an interactive communications tree. I know BW is really the only one working on this idea atm, but putting in place this type of system in STO (true view screen communication) would make things way more interesting. This would also allow you to make those choices of how you are going to handle the situations.
The problem, in part, is making the puzzles as viable as combat, so that way there is no 'easy way out'. In other words, diplomatic challenges should be just as complicated as combat. I know Vanguard tackled this system, they handled in an... interesting way. Not sure I would go the same route they did, but I think what they tried to do was plausible. When in combat your hotbars would toggle to combat skills (either space or ground), and for diplomatic combat they would toggle over to diplomacy skills. Then earn up playstyle points for doing certain taks (as pointed out) get an accolade for being diplomatic or being kick ass, as well as ones for puzzles (DDO did a half decent job of putting puzzles into their gameplay, I would like to see something a bit more complex then what they did; but the principle was sound). However, Star Gate Worlds also tried to put puzzles and diplomatic combat into their game as well, and they got in way over their heads. So this would have to be worked on carefully, not just flung in because people want it.
Puzzles are a big part of Star Trek, and in general the major thing that is lacking in STO. There needs to be three types of puzzles: Scientific, Engineering, and Diplomatic. Scientific is more trying to figure out how to get out of a situation or make a situation work. Figure out that B doesn't have to follow A to complete the picture, and in some respects test our knowledge of the universe around us. Engineering puzzles should be a bit more hands on, putting the proper pieces together on a device, organizing energy patterns in a certain way, etc. Diplomatic puzzles should work a little more like combat in that you engage an NPC on a diplomatic front and negotiate your way of a situation, of course if you fail this will lead to a fire fight.
These three types of puzzles need to be available to all classes, and should rely somewhat on Bofs to complete them.
Also do somethign with anomilies, EQ2 has collection quests from shinies, something like that could rely be worked in well with how star trek works. Find pieces of a ship scattered across a sector and once you have them all it offer you a quest.
Yes! These are excellent suggestions! It would also be cool if your character could gain a reputation for rtesolving things diplomatically like Picard, or kicking ass, like Sisko.
Why aren't you a STO dev??
No one has petitioned Cryptic for them to hire me... well, get on it. Would love to work for them and implement my ideas. ^_^
Yea the current accolades system isn't good, but giving players that option would be nice. They also should implement a Federation records network, so you can look up other players, their bios, their ships, their bofs, their crew etc. I think this is a way down the road, but an interactive communications tree. I know BW is really the only one working on this idea atm, but putting in place this type of system in STO (true view screen communication) would make things way more interesting. This would also allow you to make those choices of how you are going to handle the situations.
The problem, in part, is making the puzzles as viable as combat, so that way there is no 'easy way out'. In other words, diplomatic challenges should be just as complicated as combat. I know Vanguard tackled this system, they handled in an... interesting way. Not sure I would go the same route they did, but I think what they tried to do was plausible. When in combat your hotbars would toggle to combat skills (either space or ground), and for diplomatic combat they would toggle over to diplomacy skills. Then earn up playstyle points for doing certain taks (as pointed out) get an accolade for being diplomatic or being kick ass, as well as ones for puzzles (DDO did a half decent job of putting puzzles into their gameplay, I would like to see something a bit more complex then what they did; but the principle was sound). However, Star Gate Worlds also tried to put puzzles and diplomatic combat into their game as well, and they got in way over their heads. So this would have to be worked on carefully, not just flung in because people want it.
While my first commentary to the story regarding this thread was negative I have to point this out as a much better response to what is STO at present. I've noticed so many comments quick to point out one point or another as some issue to declare war on cryptic over but I think this is the only type of thinking that would make a good developer abandon the genre (another hot issue lately).
Sto at present has problems, that can't be denied by any who've ever played the game I think but it isn't something that can't be overcome with this type of thinking put into the game and these sorts of suggestions being made and followed. The combat is great but things like pushing the lore forward to some "other" timeline that happens to be in a state of war is just plain lazy and done before by too many others including Cryptic themselves. This type of designing needs to stop for the genre to move forward and for these games and especially STO to survive.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That podcast with Jack Emmert thatw as posted earlier in this thread is actually pretty interesting. If you have about 40 minutes to spare give it a listen...
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
That podcast with Jack Emmert thatw as posted earlier in this thread is actually pretty interesting. If you have about 40 minutes to spare give it a listen...
Did you get the part where he is counting the number of MMOs under his belt? Forget quality and longevity, this guy is after the victory of sheer numbers! That'll certainly provide quality games for us.
?Originally posted by nikoliath
Just because you are a paying customer, it does not afford you the right to complain in any manner that you see fit. Try it yourself, buy some shoes in a shop, then take them back. Instead of dealing with them in a polite manner try yelling, calling names and telling them they don't know how to run a business, let alone make or sell shoes. Maybe stand outside their shop screaming obscenities at anyone who will listen, you will very quickly be moved on, thrown out or taken away.
My guess is if you could actuall return a game, there would be a lot less complaining and a lot more returing. You comparison holds no water.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Puzzles are a big part of Star Trek, and in general the major thing that is lacking in STO. There needs to be three types of puzzles: Scientific, Engineering, and Diplomatic. Scientific is more trying to figure out how to get out of a situation or make a situation work. Figure out that B doesn't have to follow A to complete the picture, and in some respects test our knowledge of the universe around us. Engineering puzzles should be a bit more hands on, putting the proper pieces together on a device, organizing energy patterns in a certain way, etc. Diplomatic puzzles should work a little more like combat in that you engage an NPC on a diplomatic front and negotiate your way of a situation, of course if you fail this will lead to a fire fight.
These three types of puzzles need to be available to all classes, and should rely somewhat on Bofs to complete them.
Also do somethign with anomilies, EQ2 has collection quests from shinies, something like that could rely be worked in well with how star trek works. Find pieces of a ship scattered across a sector and once you have them all it offer you a quest.
Yes! These are excellent suggestions! It would also be cool if your character could gain a reputation for rtesolving things diplomatically like Picard, or kicking ass, like Sisko.
Why aren't you a STO dev??
No one has petitioned Cryptic for them to hire me... well, get on it. Would love to work for them and implement my ideas. ^_^
Yea the current accolades system isn't good, but giving players that option would be nice. They also should implement a Federation records network, so you can look up other players, their bios, their ships, their bofs, their crew etc. I think this is a way down the road, but an interactive communications tree. I know BW is really the only one working on this idea atm, but putting in place this type of system in STO (true view screen communication) would make things way more interesting. This would also allow you to make those choices of how you are going to handle the situations.
The problem, in part, is making the puzzles as viable as combat, so that way there is no 'easy way out'. In other words, diplomatic challenges should be just as complicated as combat. I know Vanguard tackled this system, they handled in an... interesting way. Not sure I would go the same route they did, but I think what they tried to do was plausible. When in combat your hotbars would toggle to combat skills (either space or ground), and for diplomatic combat they would toggle over to diplomacy skills. Then earn up playstyle points for doing certain taks (as pointed out) get an accolade for being diplomatic or being kick ass, as well as ones for puzzles (DDO did a half decent job of putting puzzles into their gameplay, I would like to see something a bit more complex then what they did; but the principle was sound). However, Star Gate Worlds also tried to put puzzles and diplomatic combat into their game as well, and they got in way over their heads. So this would have to be worked on carefully, not just flung in because people want it.
While my first commentary to the story regarding this thread was negative I have to point this out as a much better response to what is STO at present. I've noticed so many comments quick to point out one point or another as some issue to declare war on cryptic over but I think this is the only type of thinking that would make a good developer abandon the genre (another hot issue lately).
Sto at present has problems, that can't be denied by any who've ever played the game I think but it isn't something that can't be overcome with this type of thinking put into the game and these sorts of suggestions being made and followed. The combat is great but things like pushing the lore forward to some "other" timeline that happens to be in a state of war is just plain lazy and done before by too many others including Cryptic themselves. This type of designing needs to stop for the genre to move forward and for these games and especially STO to survive.
For my part i bash Cryptic Management, not the devs themselfs. Put an ancient astronaut as head of Nasa and he will cost a lot of $$$ to the people because as an astronaut he'll be interested and accept most project subjected to him. Same for a devs, i know that if it was up to them we could have get a really good game but management on top of the devs, those guys that tells the devs : no don't do this it's gonna take too much time. The very guy themselfs who rushed out STO on the pretext they had the technologie. Im blaming those people for the failure, not the devs.
And for the podcast, when Jack is asked about was it hard to let go City of Heroes and he says no... It's like wtf? You help create a first game for a company, you have to sell it, and you perfectly fine about it? No bad feelings? It's imo a bad attitude to have in the gaming industry and might lead to create less quality game. Blizz guys when they JUST HAD to hire another company to work on Warcraft series were really not happy to let them work on the graphics of the game just because it was there very own baby.
Star Trek. You idiotic morons are on my "dead to me" list.
An intelligent and cogent message that you wrote, aside from a little scatalogy, but those were well deserved indeed.
I obviously have also joined the "official" Dead to Me List which, if the President, CEO, COO and Board of Directors (and Investors) have any neurons present in their Simmian Brains. However, I tend to doubt that. And on top of that, they suckered Paramount into thinking that Cryptic was the best company for their honorable franchise. Um, Duh!
Paramount: Perhaps you should stick to making movies. You'll do better.
The problem most MMO's have - and STO seems to be no exception- is that companies seem to have a very short term strategy regarding these games . The accountants responsible for the publishing studio don't have a clue how it works with an MMO . They simply want to show a return on the investments made immediately after release of the game ( usually they also pressure developers into releasing prematurely ) . We all know - from past experiences - it takes more than a year to have a " finished " game and that is AFTER release . Only then can you start adding content in earnest because all bugs have been fixed and the core-components of the game are pretty much spot on.
But these guys want to profit now and don't care if that means abysmal support or community relations. These days you rarely see a full support and community relations team in place prior to release which is the way it should be . This means the relation between developers/publisher and the player-base is strained from day 1 . I sure wish there will be a company which can compete with Blizzard soon with regard to that aspect. Blizzard can take as long as they want with producing expansions and even games ( look at Diablo 3 ) because they are using a very long term strategy . You can be sure they have a full schedule already for what they want 10 years from now . But there's very few companies like that ( Valve , Bethesda and Bioware are three others ) because it requires a lot of trust and patience on the part of the investors .
Right on, another thing that might help would be to get a wider product range. Don't limit yourself to MMO. For some company, like CCP, working only on MMO as worked, but for some other like Blizz , they got non-mmo game to release while they work on WoW. You produce a MMO, you launch one or two game in the meantime so you have some income to continue working and improving your MMO. It might be simplistic, but seems that simpler idea tends to work sometimes!
my name is James I am one of the players on STO startrek online mmorpg game.
the game has alot of good points and got the startrek skin and toons and ships and stuff.
but theres alot missing to it and they also nerfed the feds skills and the ships cause klingon gamers complained about them !
but did they know those skills was also on the klingon side as well.
so startrek online is unbalanced and uneven duren pvp and pve some times.
the gms made the feds weak as heck and made klingons over powered to pwn in pvp battles.
their also gonna change it so duren pve and pvp you get a penalty from death now like lose exp and dropped items and broken ones too.
but broek items what the heck they doing theres no enchanment in startrek online at all ?
their trying to make this like WOW game, and I dont like wow and nor does alot of my friends wow was the worse mmo I saw ever to come out for a play to pay game.
and in STO theres no warp drive skill like in startrek fleet command 3 the warp drive skill in that game you could use it duren battle in missions and pvp and use it for attack and defense.
that game rocked and was considered one of the best of the StarTrek games out there.
I thought and alot my friends thought they was gonna have that in STO.
but nope we got this so called snail movement speed in the game duren missions and on the game board map and in pvp.
also cruisers ships have a snail crawl turn rate in the game makes your favorite star ships from startrek look like grandpa is driving the ship or that their turtles in space.
to be honest with all the startrek fans out there I realy dont see startrek online mmo' game going any place or becoming any better then what you see is what you get !
and the gms do not respond to your bug issue support tickets let alone any complaints.
specaily if your a fed base gamer.
it seems they made startrek online to be a klingon online game and made the feds weak like a new born.
so I paid for 1 month and had 1 month free so far, I dout I be paying for another month cause this game lost my interest already.
and they nerfed my favorite race skills and their ships.
this is just gonna be another archlord mess up mmorpg game.
Only AAA mmo's that i know of that retain far more than 100k subs atm are wow, eve and i think runescape for their various reasons. I also think war has a couple hundred k subs but it's still pretty young and also has falling numbers
last time i logged into lotro during free week i counted 10ppl so i guess their sub numbers count the lifetimers aswell
d&do lost so many it had to go f2p
AOC has managed to get itself up to 50k now i heard
eq2 is being killed of by soe
swg, well the less said about that the better
however they all had into the hundred k's for over a year(with the exception of aoc) and far more this soon after launch as far as i know
Seems to me that AAA MMOs are doing better than you think.
possibly(it would be nice if it were), but i think i trust my own eyes and those of other players more. I am curious and wonder if they eve log into any of the games listed and check the validity of those numbers themselves as i don't think they are accurate and some seem even wildy off
every place i've seen(both forum and articles) has said that wow's numbers are falling and now below 10 mil
as i said last time i logged in lotro was pretty empty, others have said the same and also seen the same written about eq2 and even aion
and as for swg having over 50k subs still, not even in an soe devs wet dream. Even the fans only say 25k and an honest guess would put it at 5-10k. I personally would say about 5k
truth is that the only ppl that know the actual numbers are the companies themselve and the only company i know that releases its numbers atm is ccp which is suggestive in itself and if some of those sub numbers charted were accurate i think they would be shouted from the rooftops:)
most of what we(or at least I) seem to hear is along the lline of cryptics 1mil forum registers and the like
which brings us back on topic, 1mil forum registered accounts pre release reprisents only a percentage of those interested in the game i guess which just shows how bad sto must be if you take that against its sales and then against its current subs
Right on, another thing that might help would be to get a wider product range. Don't limit yourself to MMO. For some company, like CCP, working only on MMO as worked, but for some other like Blizz , they got non-mmo game to release while they work on WoW. You produce a MMO, you launch one or two game in the meantime so you have some income to continue working and improving your MMO. It might be simplistic, but seems that simpler idea tends to work sometimes!
You may actually be onto something as Blizzard is one of a select few mmo producers like it or hate it who can actually satisfy a large protion of mmo players ironically some of the other companies that may have the same distinction also make offline/console games like square/enix. I point this out because the biggest problem many mmo's face is a lack of content and an equal lack of dev commitment to add content (for free).
If WOW didn't impress as anything more than an average game I think one would be hard pressed to argue as a stand alone rpg the game is simply epic, I can attest to this because wow got my money til midway through the Bruning Crusade off of this fact alone, alot of the "mmo elements" I grew to love playing SWG were not a factor in me playing WOW I for the most part played it like a huge single player game (with the exception of instances which were both desirable to run and easy to get into).
And since that time none of these companies have come close to even repeating this feat and as I pointed out most mmo's don't change much and add even less.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
If you take offense to something your customers say, wisdom is to keep your feelings to yourself. The people who bought your games are your customers, not your friends. The fact that you apparently cannot make this distinction is one reason you've gained the negative reputation that you have. Frankly, we don't care if you're offended.
Sir....I salute you. I can understand Cryptic is upset they are getting crap from everyone about their game. The game CAN be amazing, but sadly it just isn't and won't be for a while. So instead of pouting over it and blaming WoW, they should do something about it. And I mean more than a few ship skins and another crappy raidisode.
Another round of poor excuses from the most untalanted, yet arrogant, MMO developers in the market today.
"I asked how the company justifies their C-Store and was told by Zinkievich that "if we didn't have that revenue from the C-Store, items in the C-Store wouldn't get made" and that the store allows items to be completed and made available to players more quickly."
Then how did City of Heroes get hundreds of unique costume pieces without ever resorting to microtransactions? (there are some costume sets available via micotransactions in City of Heroes, but the sheer number of free pieces means that if you never buy them, you'll never miss them.) Do these money-hungry hacks really think it's acceptable to release four bridge types, and then make all the rest microtransactions?
Also, I have to say that it is the complete height of arrogance and stupidity to fill up your paid store before you've even finished the game! Everyone agrees that this game is light on content, light on features, and was pushed out the door far before it was done. But these morons would actually rather make a quick buck than actually finish making their game.
"That decision, I was told, was actually made in reaction to the players. During Beta, when the developers dropped the level where the game got more difficult they saw a large drop off in their open beta players. A significant enough drop to make them re-think that strategy."
This reminds me of how Cryptic replaced "port" and "starboard" in the game with "left" and "right" because some of the beta testers complained and said they were too difficult to remember. Feedback from players is important, but it seems like Cryptic is only listening to the lowest common denominator rather that adopting the good, intelligent feedback. They say that they found that when the game got harder, people left the game during beta, but was this relationship the real cause and effect? What if people left the beta around that level because there was simply no content and nothing to do?
"That being said though, the developers realize that everyone's perception of what Star Trek is, is different and that everyone has their own take on it so that pleasing everyone is an almost gargantuan and impossibly task."
This is an utterly stupid excuse. Everyone's perception of Star Trek should primarily be what was seen on the screen. If there are phasers on the screen, then there can be phasers in the game. Most people agree that Star Trek just isn't what Cryptic designed their game to be, and they should have known that from the very beginning. During development, I posted a thread on the STO forums where I listed about 20 classic episodes of Star Trek that are considered the very best of Star Trek by the fans, and every episode didn't have one single bit of combat in them. I begged the STO dev team to watch these episodes and take them to heart. Obviously, I was ignored.
Does anyone remember that episode of Star trek where they fought enemies for 45 minutes? Wait, me neither. Does anyone remember that episode where they blasted away enemies without ever hailing them first? Nope, me neither. Does anyone remember that episode of Star Trek where they were given insane, genocidal orders by an admiral and they never once questioned them? Nope, me neither.
Edit: Oh yeah, and Cryptic you're offended? I'm utterly and completely offended that you made such a shitty, dumb, shallow, piece of crap game in one of my favourite video game genres, MMORPGs, with one of my very favourite TV shows, Star Trek. You idiotic morons are on my "dead to me" list.
Hey, post a link to that STO forum thread where you listed the episodes? I'd like to check them out please
One question I would have liked to have seen asked.
I wonder how much the developers were surprised at the negative reaction the game received.
From their internal testing did they know that basic areas of the game such as ground combat and crafting would not be popular..
If they did know then was it lack of time, or a limitation of the tools they were working with that meant they had to go with what they had got.
According to the latest Jack Emmert interview, the reviewers (who gave low scores) aren't credible because they didn't say ahead of time how many players AoC and WAR were going to lose. Crafting wasn't even testable until near the end of beta, like many other sections of the game. They were told by those of us beta testing that ground combat needed a major overhaul pretty much from the start of closed beta, and they admitted early on that they knew there was a problem and were trying to figure out how to handle it. The main problem was that they went around beating the short development time drum to anyone who would listen, Atari did listen and bought them up (and also drew up a business plan to make MMOs every 18-24 months), and then they found out the hard way with both CO and STO that they couldn't deliver with such a short time limit.
But what are they failing to deliver from Atari's point of view? Atari couldn't care less about the game. It cares about the revenue. Remember, Cryptic gets a 20 million dollar bonus for delivering X amount of revenue by some point in 2010-11.
That's what I think drove this entire fiasco. Cryptic decided to launch it the way it was in hopes of making the bonus target and for no other reason.
If you take offense to something your customers say, wisdom is to keep your feelings to yourself. The people who bought your games are your customers, not your friends. The fact that you apparently cannot make this distinction is one reason you've gained the negative reputation that you have. Frankly, we don't care if you're offended.
Sir....I salute you. I can understand Cryptic is upset they are getting crap from everyone about their game. The game CAN be amazing, but sadly it just isn't and won't be for a while. So instead of pouting over it and blaming WoW, they should do something about it. And I mean more than a few ship skins and another crappy raidisode.
hmmm Pouting over it and blaming WoW....that coudl lead one to bleive a lot of people on these forums work for Cryptic...hehehe
Comments
EXCELLENT point! I know how software development works (though not for games) and in general businessess are taking the 'agile' approach rather than the very-outdated 'waterfall method'. Yes, you don't get as many features out-the-door early, but the drastically shorter iterations between each subsequent release and faster feedback pays dividends in the longer term.
Unfortunately most people won't see where this is coming from at all.
I'm pretty positive that Cryptic will make improvements over the next 6 months or so. They're hardly going to let a huge IP like this go to waste now are they?
I have to say I'm quite enjoying STO as it is actually, but probably only as a secondary MMO (my main is LotRO). I'm more of a casual player these days but can understand why 'hard core' players could be disappointed by STO as it stands at the moment. I did think during closed beta that "the game wasn't ready for release" (but still had seen enough to know I'd like it).
The first major patch/expansion/whatever-you-want-to-call-it will be an interesting milestone but I'd certainly give it a good 6-12 months before giving up! Maybe return every couple of months?
Anyhow, here's hoping Cryptic/Atari can take on-board the more constructive criticisms and make something of them. I'm certainy in this one for the long-term.
Regards,
HOD.
Given the nature of how most MMOs start STO has done relatively well. Also consdiering no Star Trek game (not just MMO, but GAME) has come anywhere near to being good. STO has done a wonderful job, and they have received praises to that effect. Is the game perfect?... no. Is there room for improvement?... yes, a lot of it. BUT (and this is the big 'but') everyones interpretation of Star Trek is different. I initially thought it missed the mark as well, I have more recently gone back and watched through Voyager, TNG, and even DS9. Honestly, everyone interpretation of Star Trek is going to be different, but as for following the nature of writting and continuity established by the shows Cryptic has done a good job. Yes, they could certainly d oa bit to improve it, but saying it doesn't feel like Trek is just a very illogical thing to say. I think they have captures the essence of Trek rather well, it needs to be evolved and refined a bit; but it is there. I agree with them, they should take offense to that. they should also learn from it. Create different tiers of play based on differing view points of what is Trek. They have a long road to go to get all the content everyone expects in, but I think they can manage it. I stated this immediatley after NDA dropped from CB, and I believe it is still true, this game will be a major success about 3 to 4 xpacks in. Until then a lot of people are going to complain that the contents just not there, and to be honest it won't be. But very few MMOs launch with all the desired content (take that as good or bad, but it is true). Cryptic is merely following its own path to get everything in the game on their schedule.
Only AAA mmo's that i know of that retain far more than 100k subs atm are wow, eve and i think runescape for their various reasons. I also think war has a couple hundred k subs but it's still pretty young and also has falling numbers
last time i logged into lotro during free week i counted 10ppl so i guess their sub numbers count the lifetimers aswell
d&do lost so many it had to go f2p
AOC has managed to get itself up to 50k now i heard
eq2 is being killed of by soe
swg, well the less said about that the better
however they all had into the hundred k's for over a year(with the exception of aoc) and far more this soon after launch as far as i know
Yes! These are excellent suggestions! It would also be cool if your character could gain a reputation for rtesolving things diplomatically like Picard, or kicking ass, like Sisko.
Why aren't you a STO dev??
Here's a good chart on MMO subscription numbers: 40K to 150K: http://http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/40k-150k.png. 150K to 1 million: http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/150k-1m.png. 1 million to 12 million: http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/1m-12m.png. These are all from MMO Data: http://http://www.mmodata.net/.
Seems to me that AAA MMOs are doing better than you think.
The problem with depllomacy in ST is that it is massive. Each race had there own quirks and you had to handle them differently.
That is a massive task that I don`t think they have the team for.
Really the whole IP is too massive for cryptic to handle. Especially when spread out over 2-3 games. If it had been a dedicated single MMO company, that could focus on the game for a while, then maybe it could have been much more.
Played WOW (5 years), AOC, AO, EQ2,AC2, Horizons, Saga of Ryzom, SWG, CO, STO(Beta),ROM, Allods, and many other F2P titles. Asl been in beta for many of the main titles and played countless SP games. I have been gaming for 15+ years!
Cryptic, all of your MMOs suck. You guys are wannabes. The Uwe Boll of gaming companies.
Tehy should be offended because STO is a horrible game and NOT an MMO! It's a single-player game.
No one has petitioned Cryptic for them to hire me... well, get on it. Would love to work for them and implement my ideas. ^_^
Yea the current accolades system isn't good, but giving players that option would be nice. They also should implement a Federation records network, so you can look up other players, their bios, their ships, their bofs, their crew etc. I think this is a way down the road, but an interactive communications tree. I know BW is really the only one working on this idea atm, but putting in place this type of system in STO (true view screen communication) would make things way more interesting. This would also allow you to make those choices of how you are going to handle the situations.
The problem, in part, is making the puzzles as viable as combat, so that way there is no 'easy way out'. In other words, diplomatic challenges should be just as complicated as combat. I know Vanguard tackled this system, they handled in an... interesting way. Not sure I would go the same route they did, but I think what they tried to do was plausible. When in combat your hotbars would toggle to combat skills (either space or ground), and for diplomatic combat they would toggle over to diplomacy skills. Then earn up playstyle points for doing certain taks (as pointed out) get an accolade for being diplomatic or being kick ass, as well as ones for puzzles (DDO did a half decent job of putting puzzles into their gameplay, I would like to see something a bit more complex then what they did; but the principle was sound). However, Star Gate Worlds also tried to put puzzles and diplomatic combat into their game as well, and they got in way over their heads. So this would have to be worked on carefully, not just flung in because people want it.
While my first commentary to the story regarding this thread was negative I have to point this out as a much better response to what is STO at present. I've noticed so many comments quick to point out one point or another as some issue to declare war on cryptic over but I think this is the only type of thinking that would make a good developer abandon the genre (another hot issue lately).
Sto at present has problems, that can't be denied by any who've ever played the game I think but it isn't something that can't be overcome with this type of thinking put into the game and these sorts of suggestions being made and followed. The combat is great but things like pushing the lore forward to some "other" timeline that happens to be in a state of war is just plain lazy and done before by too many others including Cryptic themselves. This type of designing needs to stop for the genre to move forward and for these games and especially STO to survive.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That podcast with Jack Emmert thatw as posted earlier in this thread is actually pretty interesting. If you have about 40 minutes to spare give it a listen...
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Thank you mmorp.com for saying what we all think.
After spending way too much money in advance on the Delux edition I ended up not playing for these very reasons.
My biggest dissapointment was that it felt like a shootem-up with a startek t-shirt on.
For my part i bash Cryptic Management, not the devs themselfs. Put an ancient astronaut as head of Nasa and he will cost a lot of $$$ to the people because as an astronaut he'll be interested and accept most project subjected to him. Same for a devs, i know that if it was up to them we could have get a really good game but management on top of the devs, those guys that tells the devs : no don't do this it's gonna take too much time. The very guy themselfs who rushed out STO on the pretext they had the technologie. Im blaming those people for the failure, not the devs.
And for the podcast, when Jack is asked about was it hard to let go City of Heroes and he says no... It's like wtf? You help create a first game for a company, you have to sell it, and you perfectly fine about it? No bad feelings? It's imo a bad attitude to have in the gaming industry and might lead to create less quality game. Blizz guys when they JUST HAD to hire another company to work on Warcraft series were really not happy to let them work on the graphics of the game just because it was there very own baby.
Star Trek. You idiotic morons are on my "dead to me" list.
An intelligent and cogent message that you wrote, aside from a little scatalogy, but those were well deserved indeed.
I obviously have also joined the "official" Dead to Me List which, if the President, CEO, COO and Board of Directors (and Investors) have any neurons present in their Simmian Brains. However, I tend to doubt that. And on top of that, they suckered Paramount into thinking that Cryptic was the best company for their honorable franchise. Um, Duh!
Paramount: Perhaps you should stick to making movies. You'll do better.
-- The Maxx
The problem most MMO's have - and STO seems to be no exception- is that companies seem to have a very short term strategy regarding these games . The accountants responsible for the publishing studio don't have a clue how it works with an MMO . They simply want to show a return on the investments made immediately after release of the game ( usually they also pressure developers into releasing prematurely ) . We all know - from past experiences - it takes more than a year to have a " finished " game and that is AFTER release . Only then can you start adding content in earnest because all bugs have been fixed and the core-components of the game are pretty much spot on.
But these guys want to profit now and don't care if that means abysmal support or community relations. These days you rarely see a full support and community relations team in place prior to release which is the way it should be . This means the relation between developers/publisher and the player-base is strained from day 1 . I sure wish there will be a company which can compete with Blizzard soon with regard to that aspect. Blizzard can take as long as they want with producing expansions and even games ( look at Diablo 3 ) because they are using a very long term strategy . You can be sure they have a full schedule already for what they want 10 years from now . But there's very few companies like that ( Valve , Bethesda and Bioware are three others ) because it requires a lot of trust and patience on the part of the investors .
Right on, another thing that might help would be to get a wider product range. Don't limit yourself to MMO. For some company, like CCP, working only on MMO as worked, but for some other like Blizz , they got non-mmo game to release while they work on WoW. You produce a MMO, you launch one or two game in the meantime so you have some income to continue working and improving your MMO. It might be simplistic, but seems that simpler idea tends to work sometimes!
Hi
my name is James I am one of the players on STO startrek online mmorpg game.
the game has alot of good points and got the startrek skin and toons and ships and stuff.
but theres alot missing to it and they also nerfed the feds skills and the ships cause klingon gamers complained about them !
but did they know those skills was also on the klingon side as well.
so startrek online is unbalanced and uneven duren pvp and pve some times.
the gms made the feds weak as heck and made klingons over powered to pwn in pvp battles.
their also gonna change it so duren pve and pvp you get a penalty from death now like lose exp and dropped items and broken ones too.
but broek items what the heck they doing theres no enchanment in startrek online at all ?
their trying to make this like WOW game, and I dont like wow and nor does alot of my friends wow was the worse mmo I saw ever to come out for a play to pay game.
and in STO theres no warp drive skill like in startrek fleet command 3 the warp drive skill in that game you could use it duren battle in missions and pvp and use it for attack and defense.
that game rocked and was considered one of the best of the StarTrek games out there.
I thought and alot my friends thought they was gonna have that in STO.
but nope we got this so called snail movement speed in the game duren missions and on the game board map and in pvp.
also cruisers ships have a snail crawl turn rate in the game makes your favorite star ships from startrek look like grandpa is driving the ship or that their turtles in space.
to be honest with all the startrek fans out there I realy dont see startrek online mmo' game going any place or becoming any better then what you see is what you get !
and the gms do not respond to your bug issue support tickets let alone any complaints.
specaily if your a fed base gamer.
it seems they made startrek online to be a klingon online game and made the feds weak like a new born.
so I paid for 1 month and had 1 month free so far, I dout I be paying for another month cause this game lost my interest already.
and they nerfed my favorite race skills and their ships.
this is just gonna be another archlord mess up mmorpg game.
possibly(it would be nice if it were), but i think i trust my own eyes and those of other players more. I am curious and wonder if they eve log into any of the games listed and check the validity of those numbers themselves as i don't think they are accurate and some seem even wildy off
every place i've seen(both forum and articles) has said that wow's numbers are falling and now below 10 mil
as i said last time i logged in lotro was pretty empty, others have said the same and also seen the same written about eq2 and even aion
and as for swg having over 50k subs still, not even in an soe devs wet dream. Even the fans only say 25k and an honest guess would put it at 5-10k. I personally would say about 5k
truth is that the only ppl that know the actual numbers are the companies themselve and the only company i know that releases its numbers atm is ccp which is suggestive in itself and if some of those sub numbers charted were accurate i think they would be shouted from the rooftops:)
most of what we(or at least I) seem to hear is along the lline of cryptics 1mil forum registers and the like
which brings us back on topic, 1mil forum registered accounts pre release reprisents only a percentage of those interested in the game i guess which just shows how bad sto must be if you take that against its sales and then against its current subs
You may actually be onto something as Blizzard is one of a select few mmo producers like it or hate it who can actually satisfy a large protion of mmo players ironically some of the other companies that may have the same distinction also make offline/console games like square/enix. I point this out because the biggest problem many mmo's face is a lack of content and an equal lack of dev commitment to add content (for free).
If WOW didn't impress as anything more than an average game I think one would be hard pressed to argue as a stand alone rpg the game is simply epic, I can attest to this because wow got my money til midway through the Bruning Crusade off of this fact alone, alot of the "mmo elements" I grew to love playing SWG were not a factor in me playing WOW I for the most part played it like a huge single player game (with the exception of instances which were both desirable to run and easy to get into).
And since that time none of these companies have come close to even repeating this feat and as I pointed out most mmo's don't change much and add even less.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Sir....I salute you. I can understand Cryptic is upset they are getting crap from everyone about their game. The game CAN be amazing, but sadly it just isn't and won't be for a while. So instead of pouting over it and blaming WoW, they should do something about it. And I mean more than a few ship skins and another crappy raidisode.
Hey, post a link to that STO forum thread where you listed the episodes? I'd like to check them out please
But what are they failing to deliver from Atari's point of view? Atari couldn't care less about the game. It cares about the revenue. Remember, Cryptic gets a 20 million dollar bonus for delivering X amount of revenue by some point in 2010-11.
That's what I think drove this entire fiasco. Cryptic decided to launch it the way it was in hopes of making the bonus target and for no other reason.
hmmm Pouting over it and blaming WoW....that coudl lead one to bleive a lot of people on these forums work for Cryptic...hehehe