Casual killed the MMO game

Ilvaldyr · April 2010

Originally posted by Zippy
Hardcore players in my experience are much better skilleld than casuals and can kill much harder mobs. It only makes sense as not only do they have more MMO expereince but a greater knowledge of the game, more play time, better knowledge of their class and likley are much more serious about what they do. Generally hardcore players can achieve max level in 2-4 times as fast as a casual player because they are much more efficient and have better skills and knowledge than casuals.

Of course we are generalizing and averaging here but many if not most casuals have almost no knowledge about the games they pretend to play. Of course games are dumbed down for these people. Look at almost all modern games player power vs. mob power is silly. Players are genrally way overpowered for the mob encounters meaning almost all MMOs can be played without any thought or challenge. With the small exception of raiding and a few difficult quests like Vanguard's griffon questline. This is a pattern that has continued as MMOs have become more and more mainstream and the pretend players started joining.

Casuals are the worst thing in MMOs. They whine constantly, want everything easy, are rude and have no understanding of MMO ettiquitte and courtsey and are all about themselves. If anything is ever put in game they cannot have or that is to hard for them, watchout because here comes the I spend the same amount per money as players who work harder than me and I should be given these items without doing a darn thing argument. They are devs nightmare as all MMOs are dumbed down to meet their level. Very sad. I would love to see some MMO's put in casual servers to get rid of these people. Not only would it up the difficulty on the regular servers but the community would improve immensely.

Congratulations on your three paragraphs of sanctimonious elitism.

The highlighted comment was especially humourous given the tone of your post.

As I stated previously; you're not talking about casual gamers. The only difference between a casual and a hardcore gamer is the amount of time that we are able to put into the game. We don't want easy content. We want content that is accessible within a reasonable time for a working adult with a life.

Zyonne · April 2010

I don't remember older MMOs as being more challenging gameplay wise. If anything, one of the defining features of old-school MMOs was long stretches of boredom. However, being bored has certain side-effects that many veteran MMO players miss:

You get players actively seeking ways to entertain themselves and others during downtime.
You get more socializing with strangers if you are constantly grouped out of necessity and the actual gameplay is boring and repetitive to the point where it only requires some of your focus.
If most of the gameplay is dull, the exciting moments stand out, and become memorable.

Boredom isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it's human nature to find ways to stay entertained with whatever is available. In the case of MMOs "whatever is available" tends to be other players, so boring game mechanics (time sinks, mindless combat, long downtimes between fights, waiting for a spot in a group etc) lead to a more social experience.

New MMOs tend to feed the player with a constant stream of entertainment, removing the need for creativity and social interaction. It's a natural evolution of the genre. After all they are just giving the players what they want, which is good value for money and constant entertainment. No one in their right mind would actually choose to pay for playing a game where they can expect to be bored a majority of the time playing. However, removing the boring aspects of the game, you also remove the beneficial community building side effects. There is no turning back, though. If a player was bored in EQ or AC or UO they would turn to other players for entertainment. If an MMO player is bored in an MMO now, they'll just go play one of the hundreds of other MMOs on the market.

Of course there are exceptions, but the introduction of choice has left the players who prefer the way it was done in the "good old days" a tiny minority in a growing market, and new games that actually cater to us tend not to attract, and retain enough players to fill the game world and recreate the experience we remember. I know nostalgia plays a part, but most who played MMOs 10 years ago will agree that the social part of the game was more important back then. Even more so if you go further back to when MUDs were the dominant online multiplayer games.

So, to address the OP, I agree that casual gameplay, or rather making games that constantly entertain the players instead of just providing a world to run around in and interact with and a chat interface, killed MMOs as we knew them. A lot of the things that made the old MMOs good virtual worlds and social experiences were flawed game mechanics that made them bad games. The new generation of MMO players won't accept flawed game mechanics as a necessary evil to build a good community, and I can't say I blame them. It's kind of like giving someone the choice between eating herring and potatoes 6 days a week and steak once a week, or steak 7 days a week. The person who gets one good dinner a week will appreciate it more while eating it, and look forward to it the rest of the week. The person who eats steak every day will get used to it after a while, and have nothing to look forward to or appreciate. It's still an easy choice, though.

LotosSlayer · April 2010

I think people are really overstating how "hardcore" older MMoRPGs were. Not once when I was playing did anything feel like work to me. People keep saying they don't wanna play 10 hours a day or whatever, wtf? I usually played 2-5 hours. That's because I didn't have time to play more, when I played WoW I could only play 1-2 hours because it just didn't draw me in. The point is, older MMos were just better games. They were funner, there was much better content, and way more stuff to do. When people defend WoW they talk about the end-game, because the pre-endgame sucks. There's absolutely no point to WoW level 1-79. 1-79 WoW is basically a single player RPG, only a horrible one. The quests are a joke, the storyline is a joke. There's no grouping(although single player RPGs make up for it with quality, something which WoW doesn't have.), there's no sense of progression, there's no sense of achievement, there's no feel of need for money/trade/equipment, battles last 10 seconds, your HP bar doesn't go below 70%, I could go on and on. That's 65% less game than a oldschool MMoRPG.I'll admit, the end-game of WoW is alright, but that's all it is. It's just a fraction of what oldschool MMo end-games were. The actual raids were fun, but again there's lack of challenge and accomplishment. After awhile it just felt pointless. I've had harder mob killing for exp battles in FFXI than some of WoW's raid bosses..I did like doing PvP though. The WoW clones that came after like AoC, WAR are even worse.

Oldschool MMos>New casual MMos, the people who played them know it. If WoW launched as an oldschool type game with the same Warcraft IP, bug free, the same advertising/popularity, the same good graphics, good UI, smooth controls and some other game that was like WoW was launched around the same time, WoW would have the same amount of subs it has now, the other game would have around 200k subs/would be considered niche, and all new MMos would be called EQ or UO clones(which is a good thing, even though back then there were enough things different from older MMos to not be clones of each other).

Benedikt · April 2010

interesting thread, i do agree with some opinions and disagree with others (what a surprise) but there is something i would like to say: i have to laugh really hard and at the same time being sad how a lot of people call themself "hardcore"and "better then casuals". well lets see how "hardcore" they really are:

new game recently appeared (xsyon), which is based on the feature list more or less exactly "hardcore players" are longing for. and what happends when first players get in (beta) and videos and pictures started to appear?

the same "hardcore" players started to in huge numbers cry how "ugly it looks" and how "graphics and animations sucks".

give me a break

and thats btw it - if you want "hardcore" game with better graphics, it means higher development cost and that means it need casual players to play it, because tho they are much more vocal group, "hardcores" are also a lot smaller group and they alone will not pay the development of such game

Vestas · April 2010

If WoW launched as an oldschool type game with the same Warcraft IP, bug free, the same advertising/popularity, the same good graphics, good UI, smoo...

Pretty much dead wrong. I enjoyed EQ and "old school" mmo's, I prefer an MMO that requires grouping to really progress. I think it builds a better community, I think it leaves a stronger impression when you have to rely on others to get by and level up. However I'm not an idiot, t hat makes the the game more restrictive. WoW is populare precisely because it was, at the time, the easiest MMO on the market to "feel big" in. Many many players tried EQ and gave up barely level 30 because they couldn't solo, they couldn't find groups or if they could it took more than half their game time to do so. Progressing in EQ took hours every night. If you wanted to grind XP as any class that couldn't solo, you needed minimum 2 hours of straight solid gametime to make any headway. Most people don't have that kind of time. Those that did, played EQ.

WoW's (and games like it) "lowest common denominator" mentality opened the floor to anyone who was burned by the EQ way. Now you could play for 30 minutes, finish a few quests and see measureable gains. You *knew* without a doubt if you kept at it, you'd be max level, unlike EQ where there was no garauntee the people you needed would be around when you needed them. Sure, WoW's raiding game is a facsimile of EQ's, being designed by the guy who defined Obsession in the EQ era (the irony of hiring the most hard core player ever to design your content for the easiest MMO ever does not escape me).

Wow succeeds precisely because it gives the lowest common denominator player the perception that they can excel (when they really can't). of course even WoW turns this on their h eads for the raiding game but because they have so much grindmill easy content most don't notice. Naturally subscription numbers go up when you make the game more accessable to others and the nature of leveling games makes it still addictive.

WoW is not a /bad/ game. It's a great game. It's just an easy one that is so solo friendly it's not funny. And while this increases subscriber numbers it causes exactly what I wish wouldn't happen. Communities in these games become temporary, lifeless, "whats in it for me" affairs rather than the closely bonded ones based on your reputation in games that require people to depend on each other for help.

We probably won't ever see that old-school interdependant style game again. The era of the "solo to end game" is upon us, at which point all players become mercenaries and fodder for the guilds either to use guilds to meet their goals or be used by guilds to meet others. Never with a common purpose or mutual interest to actually help each other enjoy and explore the game world.

Heyitschris · April 2010

Originally posted by Zyonne

I don't remember older MMOs as being more challenging gameplay wise. If anything, one of the defining features of old-school MMOs was long stretches of boredom. However, being bored has certain side-effects that many veteran MMO players miss:

You get players actively seeking ways to entertain themselves and others during downtime.

You get more socializing with strangers if you are constantly grouped out of necessity and the actual gameplay is boring and repetitive to the point where it only requires some of your focus.

If most of the gameplay is dull, the exciting moments stand out, and become memorable.

Boredom isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it's human nature to find ways to stay entertained with whatever is available. In the case of MMOs "whatever is available" tends to be other players, so boring game mechanics (time sinks, mindless combat, long downtimes between fights, waiting for a spot in a group etc) lead to a more social experience.

New MMOs tend to feed the player with a constant stream of entertainment, removing the need for creativity and social interaction. It's a natural evolution of the genre. After all they are just giving the players what they want, which is good value for money and constant entertainment. No one in their right mind would actually choose to pay for playing a game where they can expect to be bored a majority of the time playing. However, removing the boring aspects of the game, you also remove the beneficial community building side effects. There is no turning back, though. If a player was bored in EQ or AC or UO they would turn to other players for entertainment. If an MMO player is bored in an MMO now, they'll just go play one of the hundreds of other MMOs on the market.

Of course there are exceptions, but the introduction of choice has left the players who prefer the way it was done in the "good old days" a tiny minority in a growing market, and new games that actually cater to us tend not to attract, and retain enough players to fill the game world and recreate the experience we remember. I know nostalgia plays a part, but most who played MMOs 10 years ago will agree that the social part of the game was more important back then. Even more so if you go further back to when MUDs were the dominant online multiplayer games.

So, to address the OP, I agree that casual gameplay, or rather making games that constantly entertain the players instead of just providing a world to run around in and interact with and a chat interface, killed MMOs as we knew them. A lot of the things that made the old MMOs good virtual worlds and social experiences were flawed game mechanics that made them bad games. The new generation of MMO players won't accept flawed game mechanics as a necessary evil to build a good community, and I can't say I blame them. It's kind of like giving someone the choice between eating herring and potatoes 6 days a week and steak once a week, or steak 7 days a week. The person who gets one good dinner a week will appreciate it more while eating it, and look forward to it the rest of the week. The person who eats steak every day will get used to it after a while, and have nothing to look forward to or appreciate. It's still an easy choice, though.

slow clap

you nailed it. this post is so full of truth.

Zyonne · April 2010

Originally posted by RajCaj

Originally posted by CcDohl

Does nobody MUD anymore? I see a lot of people complain about a lack of open worlds, harsh death penalties and communities, but nobody ever mentions that you can find these things (sans graphics of course) in muds that are still around today.

LOL, terrible argument. MUDs aren't perpetual worlds where you can make a living as a crafter and sell your wares on your vendor while your away. I like being visually stimulated while I game, sorry.

Almost all MUDs are persistant worlds (assuming that's what you mean by perpetual). There's also plenty of MUDs that have crafting systems more in-depth than any MMORPG on the market with player run shops. Visual stimulation is rather limited, though, I'll give you that.

just1opinion · April 2010

A list of things that disprove the "it's better because it takes less time" theory that seems to have risen to the surface here:

1) Waiting for an hour for a beautiful 5 course meal to be served is well worth the wait when compared to drive-thru ANYthing.

2) While quickies can be great....a long term diet of nothing BUT quickies....would be detrimental to most couples' enduring intimacy and emotional connection.

3) pre-mature babies are generally less healthy than full term babies

4) your IRA is going to be worth a lot more if you'd quit taking money from it early

5) the inground swimming pool you are taking a few years to save up for....is going to be a lot nicer than the above ground you can buy today

6) that handmade dress that Grandmother made for you....the one you wore SO MUCH...never wore out, but the mass-produced one that you got at Walmart was ratty in no time (substitute overalls or whatever if you're male)

7) Brewed tea and/or coffee.....kicks ass all to hell over instant...this cannot even be argued

8) Microwave a baked potato....okay now go bake one in the stove or on the grill....no comparison

9) While you're at it...microwave that steak will you? No?

10) my house took 4 months for the builders to build...I could have just bought a pre-fab mobile home, I guess....

I know analogies are not my strong suit, but please....faster rarely means better. Anything worth having usually takes at least a LITTLE bit of time. And I think that applies to gaming, as well, at least for me.

Getting a reward, a title, or "epic" gear....used to mean something. Now it just feels....I don't know....cheap and generic. Blah. I don't think it should be that way. And...it's NOT in ALL games, just in....some.

EDIT: By the way...I am not a fan of the time sink simply for the purpose of wasting my time. I AM, however, very opposed to instant gratification to the point where achievements are rendered almost meaningless because they took no effort for me whatsoever. There really has to be a happy medium in there somewhere. Something BETWEEN EQ1 (or even UO) and WoW, both of which are opposite ends of the spectrum in my opinion. Sorry for invoking the name of WoW in a less than glowing manner too...really. I don't HATE the game...it's just the best "fast food" "drive-thru" example in gaming that I have enough experience with to use as an example.

Khalathwyr · April 2010

Originally posted by girlgeek

A list of things that disprove the "it's better because it takes less time" theory that seems to have risen to the surface here:

1) Waiting for an hour for a beautiful 5 course meal to be served is well worth the wait when compared to drive-thru ANYthing.

2) While quickies can be great....a long term diet of nothing BUT quickies....would be detrimental to most couples' enduring intimacy and emotional connection.

3) pre-mature babies are generally less healthy than full term babies

4) your IRA is going to be worth a lot more if you'd quit taking money from it early

5) the inground swimming pool you are taking a few years to save up for....is going to be a lot nicer than the above ground you can buy today

6) that handmade dress that Grandmother made for you....the one you wore SO MUCH...never wore out, but the mass-produced one that you got at Walmart was ratty in no time (substitute overalls or whatever if you're male)

7) Brewed tea and/or coffee.....kicks ass all to hell over instant...this cannot even be argued

8) Microwave a baked potato....okay now go bake one in the stove or on the grill....no comparison

9) While you're at it...microwave that steak will you? No?

10) my house took 4 months for the builders to build...I could have just bought a pre-fab mobile home, I guess....

I know analogies are not my strong suit, but please....faster rarely means better. Anything worth having usually takes at least a LITTLE bit of time. And I think that applies to gaming, as well, at least for me.

Getting a reward, a title, or "epic" gear....used to mean something. Now it just feels....I don't know....cheap and generic. Blah. I don't think it should be that way. And...it's NOT in ALL games, just in....some.

In the words of the prolific wordsmith, poet laureate Vanilla Ice, "Word to yo mother".

skoreanime · April 2010

Originally posted by Heyitschris

Originally posted by Zyonne

I don't remember older MMOs as being more challenging gameplay wise. If anything, one of the defining features of old-school MMOs was long stretches of boredom. However, being bored has certain side-effects that many veteran MMO players miss:

You get players actively seeking ways to entertain themselves and others during downtime.

You get more socializing with strangers if you are constantly grouped out of necessity and the actual gameplay is boring and repetitive to the point where it only requires some of your focus.

If most of the gameplay is dull, the exciting moments stand out, and become memorable.

Boredom isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it's human nature to find ways to stay entertained with whatever is available. In the case of MMOs "whatever is available" tends to be other players, so boring game mechanics (time sinks, mindless combat, long downtimes between fights, waiting for a spot in a group etc) lead to a more social experience.

New MMOs tend to feed the player with a constant stream of entertainment, removing the need for creativity and social interaction. It's a natural evolution of the genre. After all they are just giving the players what they want, which is good value for money and constant entertainment. No one in their right mind would actually choose to pay for playing a game where they can expect to be bored a majority of the time playing. However, removing the boring aspects of the game, you also remove the beneficial community building side effects. There is no turning back, though. If a player was bored in EQ or AC or UO they would turn to other players for entertainment. If an MMO player is bored in an MMO now, they'll just go play one of the hundreds of other MMOs on the market.

Of course there are exceptions, but the introduction of choice has left the players who prefer the way it was done in the "good old days" a tiny minority in a growing market, and new games that actually cater to us tend not to attract, and retain enough players to fill the game world and recreate the experience we remember. I know nostalgia plays a part, but most who played MMOs 10 years ago will agree that the social part of the game was more important back then. Even more so if you go further back to when MUDs were the dominant online multiplayer games.

So, to address the OP, I agree that casual gameplay, or rather making games that constantly entertain the players instead of just providing a world to run around in and interact with and a chat interface, killed MMOs as we knew them. A lot of the things that made the old MMOs good virtual worlds and social experiences were flawed game mechanics that made them bad games. The new generation of MMO players won't accept flawed game mechanics as a necessary evil to build a good community, and I can't say I blame them. It's kind of like giving someone the choice between eating herring and potatoes 6 days a week and steak once a week, or steak 7 days a week. The person who gets one good dinner a week will appreciate it more while eating it, and look forward to it the rest of the week. The person who eats steak every day will get used to it after a while, and have nothing to look forward to or appreciate. It's still an easy choice, though.

slow clap

you nailed it. this post is so full of truth.

Completely agree.

Which is why I'm so excited by XIV. I played XI for 5 years, and WoW for the same. XIV sounds like the perfect middle ground for me, as I enjoyed both games immensely. But like always, it's time to just move on.

dunesw64 · April 2010

Originally posted by Zippy

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by SaintViktor

When you cater to the casuals more than likely your game is dumbed down so that everyone can play. Where is the challenge in that and not to mention the innovations for future mmos gets put on the back burner until the masses learn how to play your game.

Strawman argument.

The difference between a casual and hardcore player is the amount of time they are willing/able to invest into the game. Has absolutely nothing to do with the difficulty of the content.

One of the common "casual/hardcore" misinterpretations; time investment is not challenge.

Hardcore players in my experience are much better skilleld than casuals and can kill much harder mobs. It only makes sense as not only do they have more MMO expereince but a greater knowledge of the game, more play time, better knowledge of their class and likley are mu

I'm curious you can say this with a straight face about a genre where defeating harder mobs simply means being required to get better gear or more levels, ie., using time played as a means to overcome harder obstacles. I think some of you people are so blind as to what skill is that you honestly believe MMOs are or ever have been challenging. Do me a favor, play a competitive RTS and come back and tell me MMOs are challenging.

dunesw64 · April 2010

Originally posted by girlgeek

I know analogies are not my strong suit, but please....faster rarely means better. Anything worth having usually takes at least a LITTLE bit of time. And I think that applies to gaming, as well, at least for me.

Your analogies all fail horribly because you're unable to separate real world with the artificial, which is kinda sad in itself. For example, a high quality meal takes longer to prepare than a low quality one because you're often using more ingredients, those ingredients also need to be prepared, and then the cooking of the meal is more labor intensive as opposed to slapping two slices of bread, a few slices a cheese and cooking it on a pan. In MMOs, on the other hand, you're too blind to realize that those things you love that take longer are only made longer artificially. It's not like a chef said, "Hey, let this cook for an extra 15 minutes so it'll be extra delicious." Yet, that's what goes on the games you wish still existed. "Hey, let's create longer downtime between fights,' "Hey, let's make it longer to travel from point A to point B." There's no real functional reason why doing things longer = better.

You might as well say: longer download times = better quality of download; or taking the long route to work to get there in two hours as opposed to the more direct route which takes an hour and a half = better. These analogies are just as brainless as the ones you listed, yet they follow the same logic.

So, that's why your analogies are all flawed and fail. Learn the difference between how and why things work in real life and the virtual world.

Attacko · April 2010

lol

it is like some Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game players use jargon and pine for the past like old men have always done

"casual players" or "noobs" etc- in gaming, it is used in a derogetory sense.

lets get this straight- some ten year old kid that like a game is ruining it for a 28 year old that has special things that make them better in a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

yeah, a real hero. - i agree with the whiner thing

Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games are feeding on themselves- like byzantine art- "the way it is done"

just begging for someone like the kid that drew sheep from life as oppossed to saints from theory to start the renessaince

reminds me of the cool guy at a bar. he knows people- seems in an enviable postion- and then with beer in hand you pause and think-" just a loser bar guy"

WSIMike · April 2010

Originally posted by Attacko

lol

i think i agree

it is like old Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game players use jargon and pine for the past like old men have always done

"casual players" or "noobs" etc- in gaming it is used in a derogetory sense.

lets get this straight- some ten year old kid that like a game is ruining it for a 28 year old that has special things that make them better in a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

yeah, a real hero. - i agree with the whiner thing

Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games are feeding on themselves- like byzantine art- "the way it is done"

just begging for someone like the kid that drew sheep from life as oppossed to saints from theory to start the renessaince

reminds me of the cool guy at a bar. he knows people- seems in an enviable postion- and then with beer in hand you pause and think-" just a loser bar guy"

Another person with reading issues.

He's talking about the "casual" in casual MMOs... the type of gameplay and how it has affected the genre overall. Not once in the OP do they label or bash the players... but boy oh boy do some of you pro-Casual fans make up for it in the rest of the thread... spinning and misconstruing all the way.

Teiman · April 2010

Ols MMO's = Sim City 2000

New MMO's = FarmVille

New mmo's are more popular, but has not sould or enough mechanics or fun to be called Games. The G in MMORPG is false for all the latest MMO's. People play these games because of the adiction, just the adiction, withouth a fun component.

Teiman · April 2010

Originally posted by Attacko
"casual players" or "noobs" etc- in gaming, it is used in a derogetory sense.

noob is a degorative term.

definition:

a noob person is one that don't know the rules of a community, and refuse to learn these, so act like a newbie even years before using that community.

a newbie person is one that is new on a community.

is obvious to you why noob is a degorative term? is on his very definition.

on internet you will find people that don't know the netiquette and use noob for newbie. ignore these people, most are noob's thenselves.

happyiksar · April 2010

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by Zippy
Hardcore players in my experience are much better skilleld than casuals and can kill much harder mobs. It only makes sense as not only do they have more MMO expereince but a greater knowledge of the game, more play time, better knowledge of their class and likley are much more serious about what they do. Generally hardcore players can achieve max level in 2-4 times as fast as a casual player because they are much more efficient and have better skills and knowledge than casuals.

Of course we are generalizing and averaging here but many if not most casuals have almost no knowledge about the games they pretend to play. Of course games are dumbed down for these people. Look at almost all modern games player power vs. mob power is silly. Players are genrally way overpowered for the mob encounters meaning almost all MMOs can be played without any thought or challenge. With the small exception of raiding and a few difficult quests like Vanguard's griffon questline. This is a pattern that has continued as MMOs have become more and more mainstream and the pretend players started joining.

Casuals are the worst thing in MMOs. They whine constantly, want everything easy, are rude and have no understanding of MMO ettiquitte and courtsey and are all about themselves. If anything is ever put in game they cannot have or that is to hard for them, watchout because here comes the I spend the same amount per money as players who work harder than me and I should be given these items without doing a darn thing argument. They are devs nightmare as all MMOs are dumbed down to meet their level. Very sad. I would love to see some MMO's put in casual servers to get rid of these people. Not only would it up the difficulty on the regular servers but the community would improve immensely.

Congratulations on your three paragraphs of sanctimonious elitism.

The highlighted comment was especially humourous given the tone of your post.

As I stated previously; you're not talking about casual gamers. The only difference between a casual and a hardcore gamer is the amount of time that we are able to put into the game. We don't want easy content. We want content that is accessible within a reasonable time for a working adult with a life.

Yeah, like 5 minutes per day.. That is how long casuals want to play MMORPGs. Because anything more than that is for those hardcore players who don't have a life.

It's funny how WoWs audience is basically the people who only log in a few minutes then log off. Oh, I got to raise my fishing skill by 3 points today.

Since their game is designed like that, they design it as a series of mini games. Log in, do a 20-30 minute instance, log out. Log in, do a 20-30 minute raid, log out. Go to cheap WoW zone with boss sitting at entrance, log out. Go do a Battleground, log out.

What part of their game actually involves getting into it? Everything about WoW is casual. They want easy mode content, bosses sitting at entrances, bosses that die once they see the casuals in the zone, etc.

happyiksar · April 2010

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Pfft, silliness.

Casual is the MMO game.

Lol, what a joke.

Casuals just picked MMO's because they wanted a chat room.

Once they got to MMOS, they begged the company to dumb down the game for them, to make easy mode content, to give out free gear, to put in content that takes no time, to put in bosses that take no skill.

They should go play mIRC. That is a nice chat program too.

No point in playing an MMORPG that isn't an MMORPG. They're gonna want characters that start out at 80, and the best gear to start on their character, etc. They don't want to put in any time to get what usually does take time. They don't want to put in any effort for things that require effort.

Any game for casuals ends up being a dumbed down game with a bunch of handouts. Gear, character, etc. are all worthless in those type of games, because they want to hand out everything to everyone.

Ilvaldyr · April 2010

Originally posted by happyiksar
Yeah, like 5 minutes per day.. That is how long casuals want to play MMORPGs. Because anything more than that is for those hardcore players who don't have a life.

It's funny how WoWs audience is basically the people who only log in a few minutes then log off. Oh, I got to raise my fishing skill by 3 points today.

Since their game is designed like that, they design it as a series of mini games. Log in, do a 20-30 minute instance, log out. Log in, do a 20-30 minute raid, log out. Go to cheap WoW zone with boss sitting at entrance, log out. Go do a Battleground, log out.

What part of their game actually involves getting into it? Everything about WoW is casual. They want easy mode content, bosses sitting at entrances, bosses that die once they see the casuals in the zone, etc.

You're simply trolling. You have no idea what casuals want.

Ilvaldyr · April 2010

Originally posted by happyiksar

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Pfft, silliness.

Casual is the MMO game.

Lol, what a joke.

Casuals just picked MMO's because they wanted a chat room.

Once they got to MMOS, they begged the company to dumb down the game for them, to make easy mode content, to give out free gear, to put in content that takes no time, to put in bosses that take no skill.

They should go play mIRC. That is a nice chat program too.

No point in playing an MMORPG that isn't an MMORPG. They're gonna want characters that start out at 80, and the best gear to start on their character, etc. They don't want to put in any time to get what usually does take time. They don't want to put in any effort for things that require effort.

Any game for casuals ends up being a dumbed down game with a bunch of handouts. Gear, character, etc. are all worthless in those type of games, because they want to hand out everything to everyone.

You're still simply trolling.

GTwander · April 2010

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr
You're simply trolling. You have no idea what casuals want.

Would it be something like Bejeweled with experience points?

dunesw64 · April 2010

Originally posted by happyiksar

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Pfft, silliness.

Casual is the MMO game.

Lol, what a joke.

Casuals just picked MMO's because they wanted a chat room.

Once they got to MMOS, they begged the company to dumb down the game for them, to make easy mode content, to give out free gear, to put in content that takes no time, to put in bosses that take no skill.

They should go play mIRC. That is a nice chat program too.

No point in playing an MMORPG that isn't an MMORPG. They're gonna want characters that start out at 80, and the best gear to start on their character, etc. They don't want to put in any time to get what usually does take time. They don't want to put in any effort for things that require effort.

Any game for casuals ends up being a dumbed down game with a bunch of handouts. Gear, character, etc. are all worthless in those type of games, because they want to hand out everything to everyone.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the most blatant use of strawman logic. Are you really that insecure and ignorant to assume that because most people don't want to invest half of their day, you know...because they have lives which I'm sure if foreign to you, they automatically want everything handed to them. Are you really that dense and immature? There is a thing called a middle ground. You can have an MMO that allows for casual players to feel like they accomplish something within a short period of time while at the same time providing content that is fairly difficult because it requires a substantial gear grind and group or raid coordination that pleases the hardcore crowd. Casual gamers don't want things handed to them like you idiotically are claiming, they just don't want to have to be forced to choose between working a full-time job or playing a game full-time.

happyiksar · April 2010

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Originally posted by happyiksar
Yeah, like 5 minutes per day.. That is how long casuals want to play MMORPGs. Because anything more than that is for those hardcore players who don't have a life.

It's funny how WoWs audience is basically the people who only log in a few minutes then log off. Oh, I got to raise my fishing skill by 3 points today.

Since their game is designed like that, they design it as a series of mini games. Log in, do a 20-30 minute instance, log out. Log in, do a 20-30 minute raid, log out. Go to cheap WoW zone with boss sitting at entrance, log out. Go do a Battleground, log out.

What part of their game actually involves getting into it? Everything about WoW is casual. They want easy mode content, bosses sitting at entrances, bosses that die once they see the casuals in the zone, etc.

You're simply trolling. You have no idea what casuals want.

My description of WoW is factually accurate. Who is responsible for those features in WoW? The people who want a challenge or the people who want easy mode?

happyiksar · April 2010

Originally posted by dunesw64

Originally posted by happyiksar

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

Pfft, silliness.

Casual is the MMO game.

Lol, what a joke.

Casuals just picked MMO's because they wanted a chat room.

Once they got to MMOS, they begged the company to dumb down the game for them, to make easy mode content, to give out free gear, to put in content that takes no time, to put in bosses that take no skill.

They should go play mIRC. That is a nice chat program too.

No point in playing an MMORPG that isn't an MMORPG. They're gonna want characters that start out at 80, and the best gear to start on their character, etc. They don't want to put in any time to get what usually does take time. They don't want to put in any effort for things that require effort.

Any game for casuals ends up being a dumbed down game with a bunch of handouts. Gear, character, etc. are all worthless in those type of games, because they want to hand out everything to everyone.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the most blatant use of strawman logic. Are you really that insecure and ignorant to assume that because most people don't want to invest half of their day, you know...because they have lives which I'm sure if foreign to you, they automatically want everything handed to them. Are you really that dense and immature? There is a thing called a middle ground. You can have an MMO that allows for casual players to feel like they accomplish something within a short period of time while at the same time providing content that is fairly difficult because it requires a substantial gear grind and group or raid coordination that pleases the hardcore crowd. Casual gamers don't want things handed to them like you idiotically are claiming, they just don't want to have to be forced to choose between working a full-time job or playing a game full-time.

If they don't want things handed to them, why are they getting things handed to them again? Because they whine about everything?

I guess your casual arguments are:

You either play 5 minutes per day and have a life, or you play 10 hours per day and don't have a life.

Fact is, there aren't any zones in WoW that take more than an hour or two anymore. Too much to invest a few hours once every few nights for a challenging raid zone? They have so much of a "life", they can't even log on for more than 5 minutes a day.

Ilvaldyr · April 2010

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by Ilvaldyr
You're simply trolling. You have no idea what casuals want.

Would it be something like Bejeweled with experience points?

No. An MMO that is accessible to someone who works full time, has a family and sleeps.

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Casual killed the MMO game

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