If you want to compare Bioware and Blizzard, you see immediatly some differences:
Bioware creates great story telling games that let's you adventure along lines of progress.
Blizzard creates games where the story telling is set as a background with multiplayer PvP or PvE in its core design.
I think the 3 biggest challenges for Bioware are :
- Creating a multiplayer challenge (with PvP and PvE) behind its MMORPG.
- Leave out the long story telling by NPC's. Because mmorpg's are not being played to listen to stories, players want to invent their own heroism in their character progress.
- Leaving out "loading graphics" screens when playing on a planet.
Up to this very day, story telling games didn't last long in long term playing value.
The top 20 on Xfire is dominated by multiplayer PvP oriented games. Some PvP games are 10 years old and more played than the newest adventure telling games.
MMORPG's are based on repeated gameplay and PvP and /or multiplayer is best suited for that kind of play to avoid the grind feeling. Story telling can only be done once and then new content must be offered. Impossible to do in an mmorpg.
So Bioware very much has to change its style of programming. Not very easy to do.
Blizzard wanted to do an adventure game once and they had to cancel the project after 3 years, not their cup of tea ...
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
The top 20 on Xfire is dominated by multiplayer PvP oriented games. Some PvP games are 10 years old and more played than the newest adventure telling games.
All I have to say is that I *HATE* people using xfire as a general reference. The kind of people that use xfire are facebook toting Halo douches, with gel'd hair and ecko clothing. Whens the last time you ever seen someone with Civ 4 on their xfire profile? It doesn't exist.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
My favorite RPGs of all time are not Bioware's even though I play Neverwinter Nights, the best RPGs for PC in my opinion are the Ultima Series, Fallout Series, and The Elder Scrolls Series and just so happens I own all of them . However , there are many RPGs I havent tried like ME 1-2 (due to I won't buy them till a game of the year is released where all the DLC is included)
, The Witcher (waiting to come down in price) and some other titles for PC.
Bioware is great at what they do. Their games are well-made and maintain high production standards. But there is a certain sameness to their games, and the game mechanics tend to be somewhat uninspired.
If you like interactive movies nobody does it better than Bioware. But if choices and consequences are what you're after you're not likely to find it in a Bioware game. In Bioware games generally the only thing that changes is the cutscene at the end. Other than that you're just following a linear quest while choosing the dialogue (using a poor dialogue chooser that often misrepresents your choices) of an asshole or a goodie two-shoes. I can't say I particularly mind so long as the story is entertaining (though it would be awesome if we could actually influence it). But it's not as if most other rpgs offer more immersive gameplay.
About SWtOR... It's worth remembering that Bioware has expanded and brought aboard "talent" from the MMO industry. Hopefully this might mean a Bioware-style game with better gameplay. But it's really too early to say. Some quotes are promising, such as their understanding that community is something they need to encourage with game mechanics, while others show less understanding; blaming JtL for a loss of retention in SWG. We'll see soon enough I suppose. I doubt we'll see more choices and consequences given the expense of Bioware's chosen style. But in any event SWtOR will be different from the usual "kill 10 rats" MMO, so I expect I'll play it.
If you want to compare Bioware and Blizzard, you see immediatly some differences:
Bioware creates great story telling games that let's you adventure along lines of progress.
Blizzard creates games where the story telling is set as a background with multiplayer PvP or PvE in its core design.
I think the 3 biggest challenges for Bioware are :
- Creating a multiplayer challenge (with PvP and PvE) behind its MMORPG.
- Leave out the long story telling by NPC's. Because mmorpg's are not being played to listen to stories, players want to invent their own heroism in their character progress.
- Leaving out "loading graphics" screens when playing on a planet.
Up to this very day, story telling games didn't last long in long term playing value.
The top 20 on Xfire is dominated by multiplayer PvP oriented games. Some PvP games are 10 years old and more played than the newest adventure telling games.
MMORPG's are based on repeated gameplay and PvP and /or multiplayer is best suited for that kind of play to avoid the grind feeling. Story telling can only be done once and then new content must be offered. Impossible to do in an mmorpg.
So Bioware very much has to change its style of programming. Not very easy to do.
Blizzard wanted to do an adventure game once and they had to cancel the project after 3 years, not their cup of tea ...
Bioware and Blizzard are both extremely successful in their own rights, and on their own terms.
Your points of view assume Blizzard's model is the *correct* model. But wait a second, Bioware is successful at what they've done... why not continue doing what they do best, cater to their audience, and bring something fresh as they step into an arena that might not otherwise be their typical playing ground? 'Leave out long story-telling NPCs?' No, let's let them do things the way that have brought them success. 'Players want to invent their own heroism?' Blizzard doesn't do this- why should Bioware? Wherein any of Blizzard's games does the individual (aside from modding, which is a seperate entity of discussion) invent their own path? Blizzard releases content explicitly to lure the consumer into playing it.
Your biggest lie you pass off as fact is 'story telling games didn't last long in long term playing value'. ARE YOU FLIPPIN MAD?! Final Fantasy 7 strikes me as the pinnacle of long-term games, and is entirely story-telling. Your views are beyond skewed, they're rigged to be synonymous to anything Blizzard breathes.
Xfire is dominated by PvP games... because it's a PvP community. Can you offer more objective arguments please? *Please*? Blizzard and Bioware and IndieStudio321 all have cancelled projects. Don't isolate one just to support your cause when it necessarily the correct cause:effect.
camp11111, your posts are ridden with false information, information you skew to support your Blizz/WoW fanboism, and information that holds no relevence.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
I can't see a single reason to think that xfire would be more populated by PvP community than PvE community. In fact I would think its the other way around - for PvP you need higher FPS than casual PvE and xfire is basically just another software that slows down your computer. I don't believe that xfire is more used by PvP community and there is no indication to think so.
One of the popular answers when considering the direction SWTOR is heading ( being complete instanced , on the rails , amusement park MMO ) is:
Oh Lobotomist..
Will you ever stop trolling?
Read this - may give you hope on just how professional and talented the folks at Bioware are, and how they really do plan to create a MMO that is much, much more then the "completely instances, on the rails, amusement park MMO" you seem to believe (with little to no supporting evidene btw) that they are creating.
I suppose you'll say it's "just talk" and we should listen to you instead.
Here are some highlights of the main points -
"I have had a long history of making MUDs and massively multiplayer games, and in working with and building them. I’ve come to the conclusion that both extremes have serious design problems. Worlds offer great freedom, but that freedom comes at a great price: they tend to be harsh, and offer the new player little in the sense of goals and direction. Many players are overwhelmed by the freedom, or can never find the fun. Often, a world is only as good as the people who have arrived before you – depending on that level of serendipity makes designers nervous.
On the flip side, pure games have their problems too. Freedom is a true part of the magic of MMOs, and artificial constraints and mechanics can undermine the fiction and the sense that you are living in the virtual world – and when you have a brand as rich and textured as Star Wars™, the last thing you want to do is undermine it. Even worse, the depth and visual splendor of Star Wars™: The Old Republic would be completely lost if players couldn’t jump off the rails and just live in the space from time to time.
I’ve long advocated that moderation is the way to go, and I believe on The Old Republic we are successfully travelling a middle path, a centrist path that takes the strengths of both: provide a directed and balanced game experience inside a lush, free-form Star Wars world.
But I also believe that the game vs. world debate is missing a third element: community."
"To me, as an MMO designer, community is the whole ball of wax. Let’s face it, if you wanted to play just a ‘game’, you’d be off playing a single player roleplaying game. If you wanted a ‘world’, maybe you’d play a life-simulation game. But community – well, that’s the whole ‘massively multiplayer’ part of MMO. When you look at it this way, ‘community’ is at least as important as ‘game’ or ‘world’ in this debate.
And probably more so."
"Crafting is another area where we’ve talked a lot about community. The systems design team is not satisfied with some other crafting systems that we’ve seen, where many players craft almost exclusively for themselves. We’ve spent quite a bit of time discussing how to ensure that crafters – true dedicated crafters – can make a name for themselves and be important in their community"
"In fact, you’ll probably be hearing a lot more from me and the other systems designers in the coming months as we talk about the systems and features that are getting locked down inside of the game to the degree that we’re comfortable talking about them. Like I said earlier, The Old Republic is an MMO, and it’s these systems and features that really help define that fact. You’ll likely hear a lot of design theory around them. As we do so, you’ll likely see a common theme: us constantly asking ourselves “Is this feature better because it leverages other players and the community?”
ps KOTOR2 was the good one and it was done by Obsidian not Bioware
invalidates your whole post. Kotor 2 was completely unfinished and jumped probably 3-4 hours of contents to randomly drop you on the last planet. And was overall less of an epic story than the first one.
Agreed. While fun, KOTOR 2 was obviously inferior to KOTOR 1.
ps KOTOR2 was the good one and it was done by Obsidian not Bioware
invalidates your whole post. Kotor 2 was completely unfinished and jumped probably 3-4 hours of contents to randomly drop you on the last planet. And was overall less of an epic story than the first one.
It wasn't as good as the first one but KOTOR 2 was still pretty damn good in my opinion. Really liked the story.
I can't see a single reason to think that xfire would be more populated by PvP community than PvE community. In fact I would think its the other way around - for PvP you need higher FPS than casual PvE and xfire is basically just another software that slows down your computer. I don't believe that xfire is more used by PvP community and there is no indication to think so.
Um, whatever you're personal beef with PvP may be, it doesn't require covering up facts like FPS-multiplayer being the #1 charttopper on xfire at all times. Mainly MW1&2, but we both know how many others there are that are at the top of the list as well.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
ps KOTOR2 was the good one and it was done by Obsidian not Bioware
invalidates your whole post. Kotor 2 was completely unfinished and jumped probably 3-4 hours of contents to randomly drop you on the last planet. And was overall less of an epic story than the first one.
Agreed. While fun, KOTOR 2 was obviously inferior to KOTOR 1.
disagreed, I thought 2 was better than the first even unfinished.
Bioware is all about extremly narrow corridors, illusion of decisions, horrible interface where you have to navigate throught the menus with one or two keys like we were all using consoles, imbalanced combat mechanics which makes 80% of all abilities totally useless, and lastly about silly half-empty chests on every step.
You say this like there are a ton of other games out there that let you go beyond that corridor.. ..most games don't allow you to make a single decision as far as the end of the game is concerned. Hell, look at WoW, THE MMO to beat. What decision is there...(beyond picking race and class..) ..it's all fully linear. There's no choice to screw over Maiev to take on Illidan by yourself, you have to follow a specific quest line in a very specific order, do things exactly like the quests says to get the outcome desired, a dead boss.. ..and know what?
People LOVE it!
Now BioWare is offering a choice? Even if just a small one, your 'narrow corridor'? Isn't that more that's been offered before?
You are complaining that you are only being offered White or Wheat.. ..when in times past you've only ever been given wheat.
He would be right in saying it's just talk. While it sounds nice and promising that's all it is for now. -Just talk. The guy says nothing about how they will implement their fair promises.
Devs have been lying through their teeth/been wrong about how awesome their games are before. Cryptics descriptions of STO are far more appealing than the game they made, which is not even a pale shadow of what they described. POTBS devs showed an appreciation of the folly of appealing to gankers only to implement exactly the sort of game they warned against.
Most MMO devs misrepresent their games. We can hope Bioware is different, but there is no way of knowing until we know more about their game mechanics or actually see what they've made.
We can always doubt, but so far I see no basis for any serious doubt. And its their first MMO, so we have no reference. A fresh look might even be an advantage. See SOE. Having experience does not naturally be a bonus.
So all in all I see no single point in the doings of Bioware to doubt TOR will be great at this point.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You are complaining that you are only being offered White or Wheat.. ..when in times past you've only ever been given wheat.
Well I think what they are trying to say is quite obvious;
"Give us an overwhelming amount of decision-making, or give us none."
The way I see it's more a case of uncanny valley meets RPGs. Bioware has refined storytelling to such a fine point that the lack of meaningful choices becomes glaringly obvious. RPGs weren't much better (if at all) regarding choices in the past. But while graphics and storytelling have been massively improved we're still at the same level of decision-making as two decades ago. People just want choices and consequences to get the same level of refinement.
The way I see it's more a case of uncanny valley meets RPGs. Bioware has refined storytelling to such a fine point that the lack of meaningful choices becomes glaringly obvious. RPGs weren't much better (if at all) regarding choices in the past. But while graphics and storytelling have been massively improved we're still at the same level of decision-making as two decades ago. People just want choices and consequences to get the same level of refinement.
Regarding OP, whether Bioware makes a number of the greatest games or what games of Bioware are the better ones is a matter of personal taste, but it's downright silly just to dismiss their sales and great reviews of their latest games as just an effect of hype and good advertising. The storytelling of their latest games is of high quality and immersive, the characters that accompany in ME2 aren't just crashtest dummies but some of the most memorable and colorful you'll meet in your gaming experience (even if they're too 'unfriendly' to the taste of some), and the gameplay in ME2 has been polished to smooth addicitveness. Personally, I find it courageous and gutsy of a company that they didn't just went on and made BG3 after their success of BG 1 & 2, or didn't keep on making KOTOR sequels but went to wholly different worlds with Jade Empire and Mass Effect, where many other developers almost anxiously keep on spurning sequel after sequel.
About consequences and choices, there are 700 story hooks in Mass Effect that come back in ME2 in advertisements, conversations and people's reactions with slight differences, depending upon your choices in ME, and furthermore ME had 4 different endings. Next to that, Bioware mentioned that they would upstage it further for ME3, there are already some major plot choices that you are confronted with later on in ME2 that'll come back to haunt you in ME3.
But I agree, the Bioware games are certainly no GTA environments. If you want to have choices and consequences players can have that affect the game environment, then you automatically steer into the direction of sandbox-style for your MMO world, where players' actions and their rising cities help shape the world. I'm thinking of MMO's like EVE Online, SWG pre-NGE and Ryzom where you can see elements of this.
camp1111 wrote (for some reason I can't get it to work to copy/paste a 2nd quote into my post)
" I think the 3 biggest challenges for Bioware are :
- Creating a multiplayer challenge (with PvP and PvE) behind its MMORPG.
- Leave out the long story telling by NPC's. Because mmorpg's are not being played to listen to stories, players want to invent their own heroism in their character progress.
- Leaving out "loading graphics" screens when playing on a planet.
Up to this very day, story telling games didn't last long in long term playing value.
Story telling can only be done once and then new content must be offered. Impossible to do in an mmorpg.
So Bioware very much has to change its style of programming. Not very easy to do."
I agree, story telling works only the 1st, maybe the 2nd time. After that it loses its value, unless you can make it that the storytelling can radically change with your choices and actions. But even then storytelling has limited value, and there's always a large group MMO players that don't care much for storytelling or the game lore. While I still think that storytelling plays a part because a significant part of the players like storytelling and it helps them with their immersion in the game, it is the gameplay that is the dominant factor.
I've no doubt about the talent present at Bioware's, but even then it's indeed not an easy task to deliver a truly great, enjoyable MMO.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
While I agree that Bioware and Bethesda has noone really to compete with in RPG genre in the U.S. there are powerful RPGs being released by European companies. Altho they are not as great as old Interplay classics or even older Wizardry / Might and Magic series, Witcher, Risen or Divinity have far more consistent RPG elements than all Bioware, Bethesda overhyped titles that sells with Martin Sheen voice acting and huge ads on all gaming websites.
Biased towards European RPGs? Is that what this is? Agenda much, or is this just a hard coded belief? The wizardry gaming series was terrible, absolutely horrid graphically and gameplay wise. Divinity was equally terrible. The issue is that BioWare creates their single player RPGs, and people buy them. People in the UK buy them. People in Austrailia buy them. These games even top charts in Japan.
People don't buy these games because they are terrible. They don't buy them for an unknown reason, and just feel the need to buy them. You say people are stuck in little boxes in BioWare games, but heres a newsflash... people are stuck in boxes in more than half the games that are out there. Lets talk about the game thats arguably been called the best video game of all time. The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time. Choices? None. Story? Plenty. Gameplay? Enjoyable.
What about the Metal Gear Series? Metroid? Final Fantasy?
Noone makes games like BioWare makes games, and that is why they are popular. Likewise for Bethesda, though companies have tried and failed miserably.
What does BioWare give people that other companies don't? They give us a story, and they give us tools to make our story. In summation, they give people something entertaining. That is why they are popular.
Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 was the real thing, everything that came after went downhill for the company. Don't get me wrong, they were going downhill from a very very high peak and some of the droppings along the way showed a semblance of that past glory but I fear for the future of involved, challenging and interactive games, I really do.
One of the popular answers when considering the direction SWTOR is heading ( being complete instanced , on the rails , amusement park MMO ) is:
Its made by BIOWARE ! You know the great RPG makers...
Well. Are they really that great today. Or is it just past glory ? ... Or even worse did they start bastardising their roots as great RPG developer ?
Let me get this straight. I am comming from view point of hardcore RPG player. In my eyes Morrowind > Oblivion. Fallout 1/2 >>> Fallout 3, Witcher is amazing game , and Troika rules. So if you can not agree to this points than we disagree in tastes from the start...
So lets take it from the top.
Baldurs Gate 1&2 (together with Black Isle ( Obsidian ) - Not much to say about this except that those are probably two best RPGs ever made.
NWN - Some people didnt like it. For me this is single most worthy investment i ever made in video game. I play it still after 8 years ( online - Single player official campaign was more like showcase for what the game can do )
KOTOR - Ok...I know everyone like it. Myself included. But this is where the things start to get shaky. Mark this game cause we will talk about it more. Also note its first console oriented game.
ps KOTOR2 was the good one and it was done by Obsidian not Bioware
Jade Empire - This is probably the first Biowares comerciall failure. Originally console exclusive. Never played it much.
Mass Effect - Bioware is again on the rise. This is the game with highest production values i have ever seen. But you can see KOTOR engine sipping from behind. Combination of shooter and RPG is a novel idea. But using modified KOTOR engine for it is not. And as i said before look KOTOR and think how much this game is similar in every way. Its like reskinned KOTOR in diferent universe and action shooting. But the basic principles are the same.
Ok so here we are. SWTOR is announced. And Bioware is now part of EA...let see what are they releasing in last year.
Dragons Age - Bioware decided to drop D&D rule system to make their own ruleset. Sounds great. But who will even dream Bioware are completelly uncompetent game ruleset makers ? The game is unbalanced to the core , some skills are useless , while other higher versions of the skills are weaker than lower ones. Non combat skills share spot with combat skills althouth there is another progression tree for non combat skills...Enemies power unballanced. Group of random bandits proves to be unpassable encounter while you kill the high dragon without even blinking.
Imagine above things in MMO ? It would even make CO look without problems.
Mass Effect 2 - Now I it got raging reviews. And in every review it had sentence of this sort : " I really hate RPGs , all those skills confuse me , and inventories too. I am glad Bioware got rid of those " Bioware took RPG in ME2 and killed it.
In order to make it appealing to the masses that are intimidated by complexity of RPGs
Let me bold and underline that one for you. Cause that is the sign of whats to come. That is Bioware today.
But did they manage to make ME2 a better shooter ? "Oh look a room full of boxes. That means enemy is comming"
Well if you think ME2 is any good as shooter than you obviously never played a shooter on PC. Or for that mater anywhere. I never played worse shooter than ME2 i can tell you that.
So in its core ME2 is simplified version of ME1. With RPG elements stripped and dumbed down. Its still has high production value. But what does that tells us?
As i see it Bioware are on the road of simplifying and mass appeal. This is not the Bioware of old. Its not about RPG anymore. And even if it was I doubt they have a skill to make it (hence the horrid DAO ruleset) and if its about fun gameplay they fail at it too (ME2)
So what are they good at now ?
Well ..they still have eye candy , high production values - and dialogues ( no wonder they talk about it in every single interview )
So to go back to the point of this post. When someone defends SWTOR by saying " Its made by BIOWARE ! You know the great RPG makers... "
to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction: Management trainees were given a chance to role-play labor negotiators.
2.
to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role: trainees role-playing management positions.
I belive you define role play incorrectly, role play is becoming your character, not making them unlock skills, weapons, and areas. Role play in modern games usually does include such features. RPG might include "unlocks", having "unlocks" does not make it an RPG.
One of the popular answers when considering the direction SWTOR is heading ( being complete instanced , on the rails , amusement park MMO ) is:
Its made by BIOWARE ! You know the great RPG makers...
Well. Are they really that great today. Or is it just past glory ? ... Or even worse did they start bastardising their roots as great RPG developer ?
Let me get this straight. I am comming from view point of hardcore RPG player. In my eyes Morrowind > Oblivion. Fallout 1/2 >>> Fallout 3, Witcher is amazing game , and Troika rules. So if you can not agree to this points than we disagree in tastes from the start...
So lets take it from the top.
Baldurs Gate 1&2 (together with Black Isle ( Obsidian ) - Not much to say about this except that those are probably two best RPGs ever made.
NWN - Some people didnt like it. For me this is single most worthy investment i ever made in video game. I play it still after 8 years ( online - Single player official campaign was more like showcase for what the game can do )
KOTOR - Ok...I know everyone like it. Myself included. But this is where the things start to get shaky. Mark this game cause we will talk about it more. Also note its first console oriented game.
ps KOTOR2 was the good one and it was done by Obsidian not Bioware
Jade Empire - This is probably the first Biowares comerciall failure. Originally console exclusive. Never played it much.
Mass Effect - Bioware is again on the rise. This is the game with highest production values i have ever seen. But you can see KOTOR engine sipping from behind. Combination of shooter and RPG is a novel idea. But using modified KOTOR engine for it is not. And as i said before look KOTOR and think how much this game is similar in every way. Its like reskinned KOTOR in diferent universe and action shooting. But the basic principles are the same.
Ok so here we are. SWTOR is announced. And Bioware is now part of EA...let see what are they releasing in last year.
Dragons Age - Bioware decided to drop D&D rule system to make their own ruleset. Sounds great. But who will even dream Bioware are completelly uncompetent game ruleset makers ? The game is unbalanced to the core , some skills are useless , while other higher versions of the skills are weaker than lower ones. Non combat skills share spot with combat skills althouth there is another progression tree for non combat skills...Enemies power unballanced. Group of random bandits proves to be unpassable encounter while you kill the high dragon without even blinking.
Imagine above things in MMO ? It would even make CO look without problems.
Mass Effect 2 - Now I it got raging reviews. And in every review it had sentence of this sort : " I really hate RPGs , all those skills confuse me , and inventories too. I am glad Bioware got rid of those " Bioware took RPG in ME2 and killed it.
In order to make it appealing to the masses that are intimidated by complexity of RPGs
Let me bold and underline that one for you. Cause that is the sign of whats to come. That is Bioware today.
But did they manage to make ME2 a better shooter ? "Oh look a room full of boxes. That means enemy is comming"
Well if you think ME2 is any good as shooter than you obviously never played a shooter on PC. Or for that mater anywhere. I never played worse shooter than ME2 i can tell you that.
So in its core ME2 is simplified version of ME1. With RPG elements stripped and dumbed down. Its still has high production value. But what does that tells us?
As i see it Bioware are on the road of simplifying and mass appeal. This is not the Bioware of old. Its not about RPG anymore. And even if it was I doubt they have a skill to make it (hence the horrid DAO ruleset) and if its about fun gameplay they fail at it too (ME2)
So what are they good at now ?
Well ..they still have eye candy , high production values - and dialogues ( no wonder they talk about it in every single interview )
So to go back to the point of this post. When someone defends SWTOR by saying " Its made by BIOWARE ! You know the great RPG makers... "
Well are they really ?
[Mod Edit]
I particularily like your point about high prodiction values. I have little faith that any large mainstream MMO will include much rpg elements, complex gameplay, or complex character advancement. the masses simply will nto tolerate it. They want eye candy, simplification and easy. These children dominate every board asking for everything under the sun and have no clue what makes a good game. Of course they are the first to quit every game as they are just pretend players.
But my point here is we are not going to get complex or hard gameplay in mainstream MMOs. teh casual kiddies have taken that away. We are going to get eye candy and hype and everything that comes with it. But in SWTOR's case we are going to get something that we are not used to getting in most MMOs and that is high production values. We should hopefully get quality fun gameplay even if its easy, non complex and more eye candy than substance. Hopefully over the long term they can add some challenging and more complex gameplay.
Sadly high production values and quality gameplay is a big upgrade over most MMOs. While Bioware may indeed not be what they once were they still may be a lot better than what we are getting now.
SWTOR does seem to be copying the WoW model of have easy fun gameplay for the masses then raiding for the more hardcore and to keep people subbed. Hopefuly its at this endgame point will Bioware will add some challenging progerssion raiding and make the game wirthwhile for those that want to play a MMO and think at the same time.
But regardless of my opinion. I want to say thank you for the well thought out intelliegent post. [Mod Edit]
Eh, I will reserve judgement for SWTOR for when I am playing it. (Be it closed/open beta, or retail.)
And as for Bioware its self? I believe they make some great games, and I think a lot of the views and opinions made in this thread (many of them from the OP) are a bit off.
Then again, this community has never been known to say anything good about...anything really.
It's like the community doesn't want to look at any MMO as enjoyable. They will find any flaw or glitch and talk about how it ruins the game.
OK, I'll keep each one short, because I'll say a bit on all:
In my opinion, Baldur's Gate 2 is the second best CRPG ever made, right behind Planescape: Torment. Also Baldur's Gate 1's expansion, Tales of the Sword Coast has one of the most gruelling and satisfactory dungeon crawls ever, so here's a tip of the hat to that.
Neverwinter Nights has goodish storytelling but is overall a quite mediocre game. Nothing new, nothing imaginative and plays like Sunday Sermon gone Twilight.
Knights of the Old Republic is leagues better than Neverwinter Nights and probably has the best Star Wars story ever told. I'm a sucker for a good story and solid characters so I rank this quite high. In terms of pure gameplay mechanics I have to admit it's not as good as the BG games, but it's still good.
<--- some other company intermission --->
Morrowind is cool. Again, in terms of gameplay not exactly brilliant but as a barenaked RPG experience it's solid and has a palpable sense of freedom. Oblivion is just meH with a capital H.
<--- /end intermission --->
Mass Effect 1 has an astounding world but I don't like the gameplay much, it's too much of a hybrid with no solid base to stick to. I kept playing because I just loved the universe and the characters, but if it was even a semi-mediocre story (as most games have), I'm sure I'd quit. Mass Effect 2 plays miles better; it has no delusions of being a traditional RPG and just makes sense.
As a CRPG player that's big on story and characters, I find Dragon Age absolutely brilliant. True, it has little in the way of freedom and the encounters themselves are not exactly on the BG2 or Icewind Dale caliber, but the delivery in story terms is amazing. If you're not the type who gets suffocated when you have to follow a tight path and can easily get lost in a story well told, chances are you'll likely enjoy this. I'll rate this game right after Knights of the Republic 1 - making it the third best game in Bioware's history.
So I'm ranking them:
Baldur's Gate 2 -> Knights of the Old Republic -> Dragon Age -> Baldur's Gate 1 -> Mass Effect 2 -> Mass Effect 1 -> Jade Empire -> Neverwinter Nights
No worries here; as far as I'm concerned, they're on a roll!
Really good post OP. I think that overall it is not the BW's fault that they make newer games less complex as the old ones. Simple as the gaming community had older players back then and each year there are younger players which join the gaming industry. This makes the companies to simplify their games, as they will have bigger impact / sales from the overall community.
I would be surprised if a game came out, just like Baldurs Gate, with modernised graphics, same complexity and a big story. It surely would not have the 90+% in most reviews... An example could be Temple of elemental evil which is kind of a BG2 clone but I stumbled upon it 2 years ago, because I did not see anything in the forum communities out there and the game was well hidden .
All the companies therefor have to adapt to the environment. This means simple games for anyone to play. Old players will have to wait for the change in the climate, once the majority of the players get older and will want a bit more challenge, using their brains.
Comments
If you want to compare Bioware and Blizzard, you see immediatly some differences:
Bioware creates great story telling games that let's you adventure along lines of progress.
Blizzard creates games where the story telling is set as a background with multiplayer PvP or PvE in its core design.
I think the 3 biggest challenges for Bioware are :
- Creating a multiplayer challenge (with PvP and PvE) behind its MMORPG.
- Leave out the long story telling by NPC's. Because mmorpg's are not being played to listen to stories, players want to invent their own heroism in their character progress.
- Leaving out "loading graphics" screens when playing on a planet.
Up to this very day, story telling games didn't last long in long term playing value.
The top 20 on Xfire is dominated by multiplayer PvP oriented games. Some PvP games are 10 years old and more played than the newest adventure telling games.
MMORPG's are based on repeated gameplay and PvP and /or multiplayer is best suited for that kind of play to avoid the grind feeling. Story telling can only be done once and then new content must be offered. Impossible to do in an mmorpg.
So Bioware very much has to change its style of programming. Not very easy to do.
Blizzard wanted to do an adventure game once and they had to cancel the project after 3 years, not their cup of tea ...
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
All I have to say is that I *HATE* people using xfire as a general reference. The kind of people that use xfire are facebook toting Halo douches, with gel'd hair and ecko clothing. Whens the last time you ever seen someone with Civ 4 on their xfire profile? It doesn't exist.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
My favorite RPGs of all time are not Bioware's even though I play Neverwinter Nights, the best RPGs for PC in my opinion are the Ultima Series, Fallout Series, and The Elder Scrolls Series
and just so happens I own all of them . However , there are many RPGs I havent tried like ME 1-2 (due to I won't buy them till a game of the year is released where all the DLC is included)
, The Witcher (waiting to come down in price) and some other titles for PC.
Is Bioware great? Yes and no.
Bioware is great at what they do. Their games are well-made and maintain high production standards. But there is a certain sameness to their games, and the game mechanics tend to be somewhat uninspired.
If you like interactive movies nobody does it better than Bioware. But if choices and consequences are what you're after you're not likely to find it in a Bioware game. In Bioware games generally the only thing that changes is the cutscene at the end. Other than that you're just following a linear quest while choosing the dialogue (using a poor dialogue chooser that often misrepresents your choices) of an asshole or a goodie two-shoes. I can't say I particularly mind so long as the story is entertaining (though it would be awesome if we could actually influence it). But it's not as if most other rpgs offer more immersive gameplay.
About SWtOR... It's worth remembering that Bioware has expanded and brought aboard "talent" from the MMO industry. Hopefully this might mean a Bioware-style game with better gameplay. But it's really too early to say. Some quotes are promising, such as their understanding that community is something they need to encourage with game mechanics, while others show less understanding; blaming JtL for a loss of retention in SWG. We'll see soon enough I suppose. I doubt we'll see more choices and consequences given the expense of Bioware's chosen style. But in any event SWtOR will be different from the usual "kill 10 rats" MMO, so I expect I'll play it.
Bioware and Blizzard are both extremely successful in their own rights, and on their own terms.
Your points of view assume Blizzard's model is the *correct* model. But wait a second, Bioware is successful at what they've done... why not continue doing what they do best, cater to their audience, and bring something fresh as they step into an arena that might not otherwise be their typical playing ground? 'Leave out long story-telling NPCs?' No, let's let them do things the way that have brought them success. 'Players want to invent their own heroism?' Blizzard doesn't do this- why should Bioware? Wherein any of Blizzard's games does the individual (aside from modding, which is a seperate entity of discussion) invent their own path? Blizzard releases content explicitly to lure the consumer into playing it.
Your biggest lie you pass off as fact is 'story telling games didn't last long in long term playing value'. ARE YOU FLIPPIN MAD?! Final Fantasy 7 strikes me as the pinnacle of long-term games, and is entirely story-telling. Your views are beyond skewed, they're rigged to be synonymous to anything Blizzard breathes.
Xfire is dominated by PvP games... because it's a PvP community. Can you offer more objective arguments please? *Please*? Blizzard and Bioware and IndieStudio321 all have cancelled projects. Don't isolate one just to support your cause when it necessarily the correct cause:effect.
camp11111, your posts are ridden with false information, information you skew to support your Blizz/WoW fanboism, and information that holds no relevence.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
I can't see a single reason to think that xfire would be more populated by PvP community than PvE community. In fact I would think its the other way around - for PvP you need higher FPS than casual PvE and xfire is basically just another software that slows down your computer. I don't believe that xfire is more used by PvP community and there is no indication to think so.
REALITY CHECK
Oh Lobotomist..
Will you ever stop trolling?
Read this - may give you hope on just how professional and talented the folks at Bioware are, and how they really do plan to create a MMO that is much, much more then the "completely instances, on the rails, amusement park MMO" you seem to believe (with little to no supporting evidene btw) that they are creating.
http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20100402_001
I suppose you'll say it's "just talk" and we should listen to you instead.
Here are some highlights of the main points -
"I have had a long history of making MUDs and massively multiplayer games, and in working with and building them. I’ve come to the conclusion that both extremes have serious design problems. Worlds offer great freedom, but that freedom comes at a great price: they tend to be harsh, and offer the new player little in the sense of goals and direction. Many players are overwhelmed by the freedom, or can never find the fun. Often, a world is only as good as the people who have arrived before you – depending on that level of serendipity makes designers nervous.
On the flip side, pure games have their problems too. Freedom is a true part of the magic of MMOs, and artificial constraints and mechanics can undermine the fiction and the sense that you are living in the virtual world – and when you have a brand as rich and textured as Star Wars™, the last thing you want to do is undermine it. Even worse, the depth and visual splendor of Star Wars™: The Old Republic would be completely lost if players couldn’t jump off the rails and just live in the space from time to time.
I’ve long advocated that moderation is the way to go, and I believe on The Old Republic we are successfully travelling a middle path, a centrist path that takes the strengths of both: provide a directed and balanced game experience inside a lush, free-form Star Wars world.
But I also believe that the game vs. world debate is missing a third element: community."
"To me, as an MMO designer, community is the whole ball of wax. Let’s face it, if you wanted to play just a ‘game’, you’d be off playing a single player roleplaying game. If you wanted a ‘world’, maybe you’d play a life-simulation game. But community – well, that’s the whole ‘massively multiplayer’ part of MMO. When you look at it this way, ‘community’ is at least as important as ‘game’ or ‘world’ in this debate.
And probably more so."
"Crafting is another area where we’ve talked a lot about community. The systems design team is not satisfied with some other crafting systems that we’ve seen, where many players craft almost exclusively for themselves. We’ve spent quite a bit of time discussing how to ensure that crafters – true dedicated crafters – can make a name for themselves and be important in their community"
"In fact, you’ll probably be hearing a lot more from me and the other systems designers in the coming months as we talk about the systems and features that are getting locked down inside of the game to the degree that we’re comfortable talking about them. Like I said earlier, The Old Republic is an MMO, and it’s these systems and features that really help define that fact. You’ll likely hear a lot of design theory around them. As we do so, you’ll likely see a common theme: us constantly asking ourselves “Is this feature better because it leverages other players and the community?”
Agreed. While fun, KOTOR 2 was obviously inferior to KOTOR 1.
It wasn't as good as the first one but KOTOR 2 was still pretty damn good in my opinion. Really liked the story.
Um, whatever you're personal beef with PvP may be, it doesn't require covering up facts like FPS-multiplayer being the #1 charttopper on xfire at all times. Mainly MW1&2, but we both know how many others there are that are at the top of the list as well.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
disagreed, I thought 2 was better than the first even unfinished.
You say this like there are a ton of other games out there that let you go beyond that corridor.. ..most games don't allow you to make a single decision as far as the end of the game is concerned. Hell, look at WoW, THE MMO to beat. What decision is there...(beyond picking race and class..) ..it's all fully linear. There's no choice to screw over Maiev to take on Illidan by yourself, you have to follow a specific quest line in a very specific order, do things exactly like the quests says to get the outcome desired, a dead boss.. ..and know what?
People LOVE it!
Now BioWare is offering a choice? Even if just a small one, your 'narrow corridor'? Isn't that more that's been offered before?
You are complaining that you are only being offered White or Wheat.. ..when in times past you've only ever been given wheat.
He would be right in saying it's just talk. While it sounds nice and promising that's all it is for now. -Just talk. The guy says nothing about how they will implement their fair promises.
Devs have been lying through their teeth/been wrong about how awesome their games are before. Cryptics descriptions of STO are far more appealing than the game they made, which is not even a pale shadow of what they described. POTBS devs showed an appreciation of the folly of appealing to gankers only to implement exactly the sort of game they warned against.
Most MMO devs misrepresent their games. We can hope Bioware is different, but there is no way of knowing until we know more about their game mechanics or actually see what they've made.
Well I think what they are trying to say is quite obvious;
"Give us an overwhelming amount of decision-making, or give us none."
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
We can always doubt, but so far I see no basis for any serious doubt. And its their first MMO, so we have no reference. A fresh look might even be an advantage. See SOE. Having experience does not naturally be a bonus.
So all in all I see no single point in the doings of Bioware to doubt TOR will be great at this point.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The way I see it's more a case of uncanny valley meets RPGs. Bioware has refined storytelling to such a fine point that the lack of meaningful choices becomes glaringly obvious. RPGs weren't much better (if at all) regarding choices in the past. But while graphics and storytelling have been massively improved we're still at the same level of decision-making as two decades ago. People just want choices and consequences to get the same level of refinement.
stopped reading when you said KOTOR 2 was the good one.
Regarding OP, whether Bioware makes a number of the greatest games or what games of Bioware are the better ones is a matter of personal taste, but it's downright silly just to dismiss their sales and great reviews of their latest games as just an effect of hype and good advertising. The storytelling of their latest games is of high quality and immersive, the characters that accompany in ME2 aren't just crashtest dummies but some of the most memorable and colorful you'll meet in your gaming experience (even if they're too 'unfriendly' to the taste of some), and the gameplay in ME2 has been polished to smooth addicitveness. Personally, I find it courageous and gutsy of a company that they didn't just went on and made BG3 after their success of BG 1 & 2, or didn't keep on making KOTOR sequels but went to wholly different worlds with Jade Empire and Mass Effect, where many other developers almost anxiously keep on spurning sequel after sequel.
About consequences and choices, there are 700 story hooks in Mass Effect that come back in ME2 in advertisements, conversations and people's reactions with slight differences, depending upon your choices in ME, and furthermore ME had 4 different endings. Next to that, Bioware mentioned that they would upstage it further for ME3, there are already some major plot choices that you are confronted with later on in ME2 that'll come back to haunt you in ME3.
But I agree, the Bioware games are certainly no GTA environments. If you want to have choices and consequences players can have that affect the game environment, then you automatically steer into the direction of sandbox-style for your MMO world, where players' actions and their rising cities help shape the world. I'm thinking of MMO's like EVE Online, SWG pre-NGE and Ryzom where you can see elements of this.
camp1111 wrote (for some reason I can't get it to work to copy/paste a 2nd quote into my post)
" I think the 3 biggest challenges for Bioware are :
- Creating a multiplayer challenge (with PvP and PvE) behind its MMORPG.
- Leave out the long story telling by NPC's. Because mmorpg's are not being played to listen to stories, players want to invent their own heroism in their character progress.
- Leaving out "loading graphics" screens when playing on a planet.
Up to this very day, story telling games didn't last long in long term playing value.
Story telling can only be done once and then new content must be offered. Impossible to do in an mmorpg.
So Bioware very much has to change its style of programming. Not very easy to do."
I agree, story telling works only the 1st, maybe the 2nd time. After that it loses its value, unless you can make it that the storytelling can radically change with your choices and actions. But even then storytelling has limited value, and there's always a large group MMO players that don't care much for storytelling or the game lore. While I still think that storytelling plays a part because a significant part of the players like storytelling and it helps them with their immersion in the game, it is the gameplay that is the dominant factor.
I've no doubt about the talent present at Bioware's, but even then it's indeed not an easy task to deliver a truly great, enjoyable MMO.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Biased towards European RPGs? Is that what this is? Agenda much, or is this just a hard coded belief? The wizardry gaming series was terrible, absolutely horrid graphically and gameplay wise. Divinity was equally terrible. The issue is that BioWare creates their single player RPGs, and people buy them. People in the UK buy them. People in Austrailia buy them. These games even top charts in Japan.
People don't buy these games because they are terrible. They don't buy them for an unknown reason, and just feel the need to buy them. You say people are stuck in little boxes in BioWare games, but heres a newsflash... people are stuck in boxes in more than half the games that are out there. Lets talk about the game thats arguably been called the best video game of all time. The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time. Choices? None. Story? Plenty. Gameplay? Enjoyable.
What about the Metal Gear Series? Metroid? Final Fantasy?
KOTOR: Choices? Plenty. Story? Fantastic. Gameplay? Average.
Noone makes games like BioWare makes games, and that is why they are popular. Likewise for Bethesda, though companies have tried and failed miserably.
What does BioWare give people that other companies don't? They give us a story, and they give us tools to make our story. In summation, they give people something entertaining. That is why they are popular.
Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 was the real thing, everything that came after went downhill for the company. Don't get me wrong, they were going downhill from a very very high peak and some of the droppings along the way showed a semblance of that past glory but I fear for the future of involved, challenging and interactive games, I really do.
- Shijeer
role-play
–verb (used with object)
1.
to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction: Management trainees were given a chance to role-play labor negotiators.
2.
to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role: trainees role-playing management positions.
–verb (used without object)
3.
to engage in role-playing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/role-play
I belive you define role play incorrectly, role play is becoming your character, not making them unlock skills, weapons, and areas. Role play in modern games usually does include such features. RPG might include "unlocks", having "unlocks" does not make it an RPG.
Exocide
[Mod Edit]
I particularily like your point about high prodiction values. I have little faith that any large mainstream MMO will include much rpg elements, complex gameplay, or complex character advancement. the masses simply will nto tolerate it. They want eye candy, simplification and easy. These children dominate every board asking for everything under the sun and have no clue what makes a good game. Of course they are the first to quit every game as they are just pretend players.
But my point here is we are not going to get complex or hard gameplay in mainstream MMOs. teh casual kiddies have taken that away. We are going to get eye candy and hype and everything that comes with it. But in SWTOR's case we are going to get something that we are not used to getting in most MMOs and that is high production values. We should hopefully get quality fun gameplay even if its easy, non complex and more eye candy than substance. Hopefully over the long term they can add some challenging and more complex gameplay.
Sadly high production values and quality gameplay is a big upgrade over most MMOs. While Bioware may indeed not be what they once were they still may be a lot better than what we are getting now.
SWTOR does seem to be copying the WoW model of have easy fun gameplay for the masses then raiding for the more hardcore and to keep people subbed. Hopefuly its at this endgame point will Bioware will add some challenging progerssion raiding and make the game wirthwhile for those that want to play a MMO and think at the same time.
But regardless of my opinion. I want to say thank you for the well thought out intelliegent post. [Mod Edit]
Eh, I will reserve judgement for SWTOR for when I am playing it. (Be it closed/open beta, or retail.)
And as for Bioware its self? I believe they make some great games, and I think a lot of the views and opinions made in this thread (many of them from the OP) are a bit off.
Then again, this community has never been known to say anything good about...anything really.
It's like the community doesn't want to look at any MMO as enjoyable. They will find any flaw or glitch and talk about how it ruins the game.
But that's just my opinion.
Groovy.
OK, I'll keep each one short, because I'll say a bit on all:
In my opinion, Baldur's Gate 2 is the second best CRPG ever made, right behind Planescape: Torment. Also Baldur's Gate 1's expansion, Tales of the Sword Coast has one of the most gruelling and satisfactory dungeon crawls ever, so here's a tip of the hat to that.
Neverwinter Nights has goodish storytelling but is overall a quite mediocre game. Nothing new, nothing imaginative and plays like Sunday Sermon gone Twilight.
Knights of the Old Republic is leagues better than Neverwinter Nights and probably has the best Star Wars story ever told. I'm a sucker for a good story and solid characters so I rank this quite high. In terms of pure gameplay mechanics I have to admit it's not as good as the BG games, but it's still good.
<--- some other company intermission --->
Morrowind is cool. Again, in terms of gameplay not exactly brilliant but as a barenaked RPG experience it's solid and has a palpable sense of freedom. Oblivion is just meH with a capital H.
<--- /end intermission --->
Mass Effect 1 has an astounding world but I don't like the gameplay much, it's too much of a hybrid with no solid base to stick to. I kept playing because I just loved the universe and the characters, but if it was even a semi-mediocre story (as most games have), I'm sure I'd quit. Mass Effect 2 plays miles better; it has no delusions of being a traditional RPG and just makes sense.
As a CRPG player that's big on story and characters, I find Dragon Age absolutely brilliant. True, it has little in the way of freedom and the encounters themselves are not exactly on the BG2 or Icewind Dale caliber, but the delivery in story terms is amazing. If you're not the type who gets suffocated when you have to follow a tight path and can easily get lost in a story well told, chances are you'll likely enjoy this. I'll rate this game right after Knights of the Republic 1 - making it the third best game in Bioware's history.
So I'm ranking them:
Baldur's Gate 2 -> Knights of the Old Republic -> Dragon Age -> Baldur's Gate 1 -> Mass Effect 2 -> Mass Effect 1 -> Jade Empire -> Neverwinter Nights
No worries here; as far as I'm concerned, they're on a roll!
Really good post OP. I think that overall it is not the BW's fault that they make newer games less complex as the old ones. Simple as the gaming community had older players back then and each year there are younger players which join the gaming industry. This makes the companies to simplify their games, as they will have bigger impact / sales from the overall community.
I would be surprised if a game came out, just like Baldurs Gate, with modernised graphics, same complexity and a big story. It surely would not have the 90+% in most reviews... An example could be Temple of elemental evil which is kind of a BG2 clone but I stumbled upon it 2 years ago, because I did not see anything in the forum communities out there and the game was well hidden
.
All the companies therefor have to adapt to the environment. This means simple games for anyone to play. Old players will have to wait for the change in the climate, once the majority of the players get older and will want a bit more challenge, using their brains.
EDIT: Eye of Beholder series > Dragon Age