I think you're both losing site if what a lot of people are talking about.
This is as simple as I can think to put it, people don't want the challenge of DF to change (At least me), people want the kind of challenge it is to change. You can't tell me you'd keep the current system over a system that made the challenge of playing DF who was the better player, not who has the better character. Right now the game is setup to the point you are either a newb or you are a vet, there really is no middle ground. The game is also catered to those with macro keyboards and so forth... which I know DF 2010 is suppose to be fixing. Either way the challenge if the game at this time is who can grind more efficient, what clan has control over what exploitable mob. That isn't right, and if you defend the system in place I strongly feel you are one of those few people the current system is catered towards.
Long story short the game needs to change it's priorities, you'll either agree with me or you won't... but I have a feeling the vast majority of people will and do agree with my views.
I think you're both losing site if what a lot of people are talking about.
This is as simple as I can think to put it, people don't want the challenge of DF to change (At least me), people want the kind of challenge it is to change. You can't tell me you'd keep the current system over a system that made the challenge of playing DF who was the better player, not who has the better character. Right now the game is setup to the point you are either a newb or you are a vet, there really is no middle ground. The game is also catered to those with macro keyboards and so forth... which I know DF 2010 is suppose to be fixing. Either way the challenge if the game at this time is who can grind more efficient, what clan has control over what exploitable mob. That isn't right, and if you defend the system in place I strongly feel you are one of those few people the current system is catered towards.
Long story short the game needs to change it's priorities, you'll either agree with me or you won't... but I have a feeling the vast majority of people will and do agree with my views.
TBH, I was just having a good time disputing coleman's arguments. Was good fun imo.
But yeah, I couldn't possibly agree more. As it stands, exploits rule the day, be it through mobs that don't fight back, AFK swimming, or macro'ing with a keyboard. All of these issues might still exist with a reduced grind, but their value would be far less and would really only serve the lazy, rather than the highly motivated.
Regardless, the game needs a change, as is echoed almost daily by those who quit, and only defended by the same people, time and again (Hey Darth! Where's Agricola? ). I'm with you in that those who are defending it fall into the category of the folks who the current system caters towards. Unfortunately, they feel that they're the nicheiest of niches, and are so pleased to have it, they'll rabidly defend it to the death without realizing just how amazing and fun the game could be, even for them, with some change...
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Sure, ill give you that, things can always be made better. Once again im not saying the design of Darkfall is perfect. However, it is what is it, and it doesnt matter what me and 100 other people on these forums say, its up too AV to make any real changes that are going to be made.
And this is all not necessarily true, there is a lot of player skill vs. player skill involved. Most battles actually end up being 1 V1 fights. Right now I have 262 health and greatsword mastery at 50. I can beat quite a few other players in my alliance 1v1 and they have health in the 290's and higher skills than me. Combat is fast paced and not everything is stat/ skill reliant. I know of quite a few higher skilled and statted players who get owned by mid level players regularly because they just arent good at PvP.
Well, it turns out it is much worse than other decent MMORPGs. In most other games, you can reach soemthing approaching max level after a month, or at least say 75% of the way there. I don't even really feel 25% of the way there in Darkfall..
I bought into all the guides and fans that said you can have a pvp viable character in a month or so. I guess THEORETICALLY I could kill a veteren with decent archery and 2h mastery but it's never going to happen in reality.
Your problem is that you are too focused on endgame. To those that truly enjoy Darkfall, the pleasure is in the journey, not the destination.
Its all about surviving that pve run and banking all that loot. Of going out with a group and surviving. Of stalking around and taking out that afk miner and getting away with it.
The problem is not the game, its the mindset. And the mindset has come from playing to many endgame games of a similar type.
Do you play Dragon Age for the final cutscene? Hell no. You need that attitude to play Darkfall.
Everytime I log on I feel the challenge, the risk. All that matters is today.
Darkfall, carpe deum.
Seize the day, and survive it.
Btw, I have played since NA release, have 65 knife mastery, 90+ in the archery masteries and only 75 swimming.
I have never macrod or afk'd. Ever.
With the recent patches I now have archery jumpshot (as well as aquashot). Jumpshot archery of mobs opens up a whole new range of mobs as killable.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76) Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
Well, it turns out it is much worse than other decent MMORPGs. In most other games, you can reach soemthing approaching max level after a month, or at least say 75% of the way there. I don't even really feel 25% of the way there in Darkfall..
I bought into all the guides and fans that said you can have a pvp viable character in a month or so. I guess THEORETICALLY I could kill a veteren with decent archery and 2h mastery but it's never going to happen in reality.
Your problem is that you are too focused on endgame. To those that truly enjoy Darkfall, the pleasure is in the journey, not the destination.
Its all about surviving that pve run and banking all that loot. Of going out with a group and surviving. Of stalking around and taking out that afk miner and getting away with it.
The problem is not the game, its the mindset. And the mindset has come from playing to many endgame games of a similar type.
Do you play Dragon Age for the final cutscene? Hell no. You need that attitude to play Darkfall.
Everytime I log on I feel the challenge, the risk. All that matters in today.
Darkfall, carpe deum.
Seize the day, and survive it.
yeah i'll second that, its Carpe Diem, but other than that good DF post.
These threads of people crying about the grind in darkfall are pathetic. Its an MMO. If you want to jump in and be able too get kills on vets go play Halo or CoD or some other FPS. In case anyones wondering, this is my 6th week of playing and i'v been grinding my ass off getting skills and stats up, and its been rewarding and a good time playing with the clan and having competition with other low skill characters. I'm just now getting to the point that I can put up a fight in PvP if attacked by a vet and I can actually contribute when my clan goes out PvPing, but i'v still got a long road ahead.
1. Its not an easy game, it doesnt claim to be, and if you aren't willing too practice and work to be good in PvP in the game then you never will be.
2. You don't just sit and mindlessly grind the same skill over and over again. Mix it up, afk swim when you go to sleep, and make a point to go pvp once in awhile regardless of whether you'll get your ass kicked.
3. You wouldn't just jump into any other MMO and expect too beat the veteran players from day 1? so why the hell would you expect to do it here? It will take 2 - 3 MONTHS of playing the game too achieve a good competitive PvP status.
4. The game is fun. Grinding is Aion, WoW, ect where you just hit buttons. In Darkfall it actually takes skill and strategies too even kill PvE mobs. If you can't hack it, go back to button mashing this game isnt for you.
Stop Crying. If you want to be good at PvP in Darkfall then do what it takes and do it or stfu and go play some carebear game.
I really don't want to leave my computer running a graphically intensive game on 24 hours a day just for decent health.
If someone could tell me a way to run Darkfall while afk swimming where it doesn't use a lot of resources, I might be inclined to do it, although I still think it's beyond dumb that you basically have to do this to be competative within 3 months, and you have to play a stupid game with the GMs where they pretend its agains the rules but it's really not.
The rest of your reply I agree with (minus the snarky tone), and I definitely despise Aion and games like it. I love the combat of Darkfall still even though I'm not playing it currently.
*********
Quote (I can't figure out how to quote a second reply):
I've never AFK'd anything or found DF to be a grind. Since you asked my stats..here they are:
STATS:
HP 293
Stam 302
Mana 199
Strength 52.77
Vitality 56.10
Dexterity 28.61
Quickness 46.51
Intelligence 33.20
Wisdom 58.32
SKILLS:
Greatswords 93.05
GS Mastery 54.95
I have remarkably similar stats to you, except for 2 of them, those being str and vit. The quickest way to get those is by afk swimming. I imagine if I afk swam for the next two months every night when I was done playing, I'd have similar str and vit to you. I really find it hard to believe you never afk swam. Either you mine and log like a motherf*cker, you constantly pve/pvp with a melee weapon (highly unlikely considering I have like the same GS rating and I don't), or you're just lying about never afk swimming. There's nothing wrong with afk swimming- everyone does it. It just seems so dumb and I don't want to wear out my GPU for something like that.
On a totally different note, my archery and witchcraft are way higher than yours, but my fire magic is at about 44.5. Did you find a big jump in your competativeness after getting fire magic to 50? If I felt like just getting it to 50 or 60 like you have it could make a big difference, that might entice me to resub to at least complete that and see how it goes.
****
I think you would consider this great advice since it's your own and stay sudscribed.
"MMORPGs are about the ride, not the destination, even Darkfall. If you play any MMORPG just to get to endgame as fast as possible, you are almost definitely going to be dissapointed by what you find, because your expectations will be so high. It's just like someone that spends their entire life overworking to get "that great car" or "that great house". They are bound to be burned out and dissapointed by the time they actually achieve their goal." Holdenhamlet
Hmm, yes those are wise words lol. It is possible I did burn myself out. Like I mentioned, I was grinding 8+ hours a day.
Another thing I didn't get a chance to try was being part of a real clan. I had just joined one when my sub ran out.
****
All in all, still on the fence but reconsidering.
I really find it hard to believe you never afk swam. Either you mine and log like a motherf*cker, you constantly pve/pvp with a melee weapon (highly unlikely considering I have like the same GS rating and I don't), or you're just lying about never afk swimming.
Well - I'm not sure how to measure that but I've never purchased or sold materials - I've mined...logged and gathered everything I've needed to advance crafting. As far as melee it's mostly been PVE and to date I've killed about 6K mobs.
I don't lie and I don't cheat and that's exactly what afk swimming is and I think it's really sad that so many people feel the need to cheat in a game and if that's all you're going to do if you come back then I'd rather you not.
As far as Fire Magic making me more competitive - yes indeed. Magic in the game is way OP and the higher your magic skills the better chance you have in combat. It's pretty sick to see how much power one player can have in this game - firing nukes that rival that of a ship. I mean - there's something wrong when one player can hit you with a myriad of spells and not only debuff you...blind you but knock off half your health in one shot.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Heh, I did afk swimming only one night. It's good to rise quickness (I got only 63 - it sucks!), but as to strength and vitality it helps not much. The best way to get your Str and Vit is fighting mobs. It took me 2 months to get 100/100 in Greatclub, and my hp is 336 now unbuffed...
Oh man, last time i checked these forums you were calling me a troll for saying there is a huge PVE grind in Darkfall. Honestly I am glad you finally saw the light. It's hard to play darkfall without realizing what you did.
Well, if AV wants to resume their fascist and conservative "grind while sleep or die during the day" policy, then at least let them implement an EvE-like mechanics of off-line progression. Or they could actually add some content to the game, reduce grind and let the game be fun most of the time. As it stands, the game is losing players not because it's tough or cruel or any of that macho crap, but simply because it's a boring grindfest that resembles a gulag concentration camp.
AV, so young and stupid, maybe in a few years they'll realize like Blizzard did that allowing the majority of people to have fun is the way to go.
Also, your not taking into account the political system in DFO. If a new player could jump in and be competitve statwise in a week or two to a 6 month veteran, then what would stop certain Zerg Clans (won't mention any names BLOOD) from just ammassing a bunch of trial accounts under their banner, giving them some weapons and armor and taking major holdings all over the map?
You're acting like dynamic and frequent large scale pvp would be a bad thing for the game. Btw, nobody is suggesting a trial account should be competative, but I am suggesting that a 45 day player should be competative.
Unfortunately, vets seem to not want to give up the advantage they "earned" by afk swimming and macroing and would rather sit in a city that is safe, just so they can afk macro all day instead of having to pvp all day... God forbid cities should be under constant threat and the game turn into some kind of constantly changing political pvp game. That would be awful, right?
God forbid cities should be under constant threat and the game turn into some kind of constantly changing political pvp game. That would be awful, right?
God forbid cities should be under constant threat and the game turn into some kind of constantly changing political pvp game. That would be awful, right?
people could lose their stuff! can't have that.
Gotta agree with Holden's asessment of the "vets".
Darkfall is very "old school". There IS a lot of grind. I'm not going to sit here and try "minimalize" the grind in Darkfall. It sucks at times. I feel it too. A lot could be done to make PvE and the grind more fun. But for me, the good still out weighs the bad.
I wonder however, if people aren't over exaggerating the time it takes for a Character to compete with the vets (someone who has played for a year).
In Wow (a game notorious for being easy) how long does it take to become "competitive" against a vet?
So how long does it take to get level 80? I want to say a month for the hardcore players, two for the more casual.
Once you make level 80 are you even then "competitive"? I seem to remember another couple months of "gearing" up to become pvp viable.
For me (it's been a while) I might expect to have my first Character to cap in about two months of playing and be decently geared after another 1 or 2 months.
So according to my rough estimate, I could be playing with the Bigboys in Wow within 4-5 months.
Okay, that seems acceptable, but again, we're talking Wow here...
What about Eve? After two months in Eve, the best I could really hope for is to have a ROLE. Like in Darkfall, a two month old player has only begun to scratch at the surface. He's not even CLOSE to being endgame ready/competitive.
But, he can certainly be "useful"... in a role.. as long as he doesn't expect to do it all.
After two months in Darkfall (with no macro'ing) I too can have a role. I swing or shoot away as I can. I parry up when targetted. I try to make more of a nuisance to my enemies than I do to my friends. I act as a meat shield. I revive and I gank. I scout and act as eyes and ears. I heal my friend's mounts. I heal my friends (when they aren't moving around the battlefield like madmen). I act as bait. I call for help when jumped.
Its not perfect and yes, I'd like to be MORE competitive against the vets, but I'm not exactly seeing the HUGE disparity between a two month Character in Darkfall and a two month Character in many other games.
A two month old Character in either game doesn't stand much of a chance against a vet. I'm not even sure you can say that a two month old Character in Wow has much chance against someone whose been playing for a year or more.
But what about at six months?
In Eve I started feeling competitive after hitting the six month mark. In Darkfall, I'm hoping it's about the same. Will I expect to have a 50/50 chance against someone who has played the game for a year and a half in Darkfall? Probably not. But thats one of the things I like about both games.
In Darkfall and in Eve (to a lesser extent), I feel my "levels" have been earned. I have the scars to prove it. Nothing has been handed to me. Noone has held my hand (and no I'm not immune to frustration or impatience), I however, don't mind taking the longer view.
Now.. all that said. That does not mean I don't think Darkfall shouldn't change some things and improve in others. Yes, I feel they could tweek the skill ups a bit, make it just a little faster. Yes the grind can wear you down, but we also have it in our power to minimalize the grind. To mix it up.
I left the starter town on day three and went Newbie Raiding. Until I joined a Clan, I spent my first month bound to a Chaos Stone and using Wilderness Banks. Not the most "efficient" use of my time, but I had fun and got to experience PvP of a kind from the getgo.
As it is, I grind in doses and when I'm in the mood for it (and sometimes not). I go looking for a fight when I'm in the mood for it. Unlike some of the local trolls, I never felt the need to calculate how many thousands of PvE kills I would need before I could even think about PvPing.
I might be slower than your average hare, but like the tortoise, I'm pretty sure I'm going to end the race.. ganking as I go.
We need to start thinking of MMO's as we do music or literature or the movies. There is not one MMO or one game that will be universally satisfactory to everyone's taste. MMO's don't come in one genre just as books or music doesn't come in one genre. Change and innovation is a good thing in the MMO industry just as it is in literature and music, but every MMO doesn't need to push the envelope or be cutting edge to be "good" or fun. It just needs to be good. The same is true for music. The same is true for books or for movies. Music evolves. MMO's evolve. Storytelling evolves. And in doing so, it doesn't make obsolete or not enjoyable everything that's been done before.
The main problem for me is not the grind itself, but how it is implemented. Do we really need skill grind on EVERYTHING, like goddamn crouching, running, riding, seriously? There are so many skills to grind it's just absurd. And why oh why do I need to raise harvesting skills in such a lame manner that I have to stare at my character's back for hours and hours... on a monthly basis? It would be acceptable for me if I had to stare at my character's back for just one harvesting skill, but for ALL... are you kidding me? Harvesting/crafting alone in this game just begs you to do some serious botting/macroing because... what's the alternative here - staring mindlessly at the screen for days?!
Saddest thing of all is that the lamest means to obtain HP and STR, important pvp stats, is mindlessly staring at your character's back! So, to be competitive in pvp you literally need to... STARE until your eyes bleed out. What a joke!
The main problem for me is not the grind itself, but how it is implemented. Do we really need skill grind on EVERYTHING, like goddamn crouching, running, riding, seriously? There are so many skills to grind it's just absurd. And why oh why do I need to raise harvesting skills in such a lame manner that I have to stare at my character's back for hours and hours... on a monthly basis? It would be acceptable for me if I had to stare at my character's back for just one harvesting skill, but for ALL... are you kidding me? Harvesting/crafting alone in this game just begs you to do some serious botting/macroing because... what's the alternative here - staring mindlessly at the screen for days?!
Saddest thing of all is that the lamest means to obtain HP and STR, important pvp stats, is mindlessly staring at your character's back! So, to be competitive in pvp you literally need to... STARE until your eyes bleed out. What a joke!
In the official darkfall forum, in the player section, they made a thread to honor the OP. It seem like he was in the road to be a really known darkfall player. All players there agree with his feelings exept one player and that is Xpiher.
Well, it turns out it is much worse than other decent MMORPGs. In most other games, you can reach soemthing approaching max level after a month, or at least say 75% of the way there. I don't even really feel 25% of the way there in Darkfall..
I bought into all the guides and fans that said you can have a pvp viable character in a month or so. I guess THEORETICALLY I could kill a veteren with decent archery and 2h mastery but it's never going to happen in reality.
Haha I hate to say I told you so.
It`s sad to see yet another player getting killed by the biggest and most boring grind in the history of mmos. But I`ve seen tens of thousand getting killed by the grind, so I don`t really care that much anymore. What you and others should learn, is to not defend the grind when you have played less than 3 months. Because frankly you have no clue.
Some of you chose to listen to the trolls and spin doctors that claim there is no grind and you can compete in a month or two. They will provide you with some formulas, tell they know clanmates/friend and that health doesn`t matter in a pvp mmo. Come on, who can belive your health doesn`t matter in a pvp mmo. They are flat out lying and I can`t understand why they chose to destroy what could have been the best pvp mmo for a decade.
Some spin doctors compare DF with EVE. EVE had close to 50 k players after a year and was increasing. Darkfall has less than ten times that number and can`t hold on new players. The sadest thing is that Aventurine could have fixed the biggest flaw in Darkfall with in a week, but they chose to keep the immense grind in a pvp mmo.
I have no options for another game at the moment, so I`ll stay. I have a high level char and are amongst the 300 that play Darkfall as it was suppose to be. But the moment MO or Eartrise are playable I`m out too. The few PVE players and grinders can keep Darkfall.
If MO / ER are playable and they indeed offer a character progression to max in 3-4 weeks, i see you max char there get bored and the end will be you will just log in for the main events (raids / wars whatever "end game") and most of the time you will play Darkfall because there are still goals and developments to do and to progress your char.
Darkfall don't wanna have players who login just to PvP with max chars, there are game mechanics in place to make a requirement to go out in the world for preparations and developement that makes the world more "worldy", one of those is a slow advancement in stats.
Reaching max level does NOT equal nothing to do. I mean look at games like Counterstrike and Planetside - level realy mean nothing there, and yet people still play them for the PvP aspect of it. The difference is that Counterstrike and Planetside have end-game that relies on inter-person relations. meaning its never the same sieging the same base in Planeside or playing a round in Counter-strike. The same can be said of DF - if suddenly DF were to offer maxed out chars for all noobs, I bet there would be a huge influx of new players, followed by a small and steady influx of new pop - because similarely to CS and PS, sieging the same citi from other players is not the same as it was yesterday. Thats why people would not be bored from doing same routine over and over. NPCs, unfortunately, do not offer such creativity. No goblin with however good AI can offer unique fight everytime you fight them. Eventually, you will know ALL there is to know about the AI and the fight with them will become boring, aka grindy.
As I have stated countless times in this thread. I am in my 6th week of play, and I am just now finding myself to be somewhat competant in PvP. My Skills are not stellar but they're becoming acceptable.
I have
263 health. Piss poor but im working on it.
90 Greatsword skill / 50 Greatsword Mastery
75 Archery / 25 Sharpshooter
75 Witchcraft for Witches Brew
30 Spell Chanting for Sacrifice
75 Fire Magic / 75 FireBall (working on getting it too 100)
I'm seriously not trolling or being mean here, but noone cares.
Thanks @ Realbigdeal for the info on the post at the official forum. Very long, but interesting read so far, and I'm not even halfway done.
Honestly, how folks like the one above can't step back and see the bigger picture is beyond me. Darkfall's grind has be the single most talked about topic since I watched it from its release. I ignored it at the start. I fell in love with the game. I eventually burned out like the vast majority. The grind is not OK, it merely caters to a handful of extremely defensive folks who'd let their precious die before seeing it change.
Also, that one guy's signature is pretty awesome:
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Darkfall is very "old school". There IS a lot of grind. I'm not going to sit here and try "minimalize" the grind in Darkfall. It sucks at times. I feel it too. A lot could be done to make PvE and the grind more fun. But for me, the good still out weighs the bad.
I wonder however, if people aren't over exaggerating the time it takes for a Character to compete with the vets (someone who has played for a year).
In Wow (a game notorious for being easy) how long does it take to become "competitive" against a vet?
So how long does it take to get level 80? I want to say a month for the hardcore players, two for the more casual.
Once you make level 80 are you even then "competitive"? I seem to remember another couple months of "gearing" up to become pvp viable.
For me (it's been a while) I might expect to have my first Character to cap in about two months of playing and be decently geared after another 1 or 2 months.
So according to my rough estimate, I could be playing with the Bigboys in Wow within 4-5 months.
Okay, that seems acceptable, but again, we're talking Wow here...
What about Eve? After two months in Eve, the best I could really hope for is to have a ROLE. Like in Darkfall, a two month old player has only begun to scratch at the surface. He's not even CLOSE to being endgame ready/competitive.
But, he can certainly be "useful"... in a role.. as long as he doesn't expect to do it all.
After two months in Darkfall (with no macro'ing) I too can have a role. I swing or shoot away as I can. I parry up when targetted. I try to make more of a nuisance to my enemies than I do to my friends. I act as a meat shield. I revive and I gank. I scout and act as eyes and ears. I heal my friend's mounts. I heal my friends (when they aren't moving around the battlefield like madmen). I act as bait. I call for help when jumped.
Its not perfect and yes, I'd like to be MORE competitive against the vets, but I'm not exactly seeing the HUGE disparity between a two month Character in Darkfall and a two month Character in many other games.
A two month old Character in either game doesn't stand much of a chance against a vet. I'm not even sure you can say that a two month old Character in Wow has much chance against someone whose been playing for a year or more.
But what about at six months?
In Eve I started feeling competitive after hitting the six month mark. In Darkfall, I'm hoping it's about the same. Will I expect to have a 50/50 chance against someone who has played the game for a year and a half in Darkfall? Probably not. But thats one of the things I like about both games.
In Darkfall and in Eve (to a lesser extent), I feel my "levels" have been earned. I have the scars to prove it. Nothing has been handed to me. Noone has held my hand (and no I'm not immune to frustration or impatience), I however, don't mind taking the longer view.
Now.. all that said. That does not mean I don't think Darkfall shouldn't change some things and improve in others. Yes, I feel they could tweek the skill ups a bit, make it just a little faster. Yes the grind can wear you down, but we also have it in our power to minimalize the grind. To mix it up.
I left the starter town on day three and went Newbie Raiding. Until I joined a Clan, I spent my first month bound to a Chaos Stone and using Wilderness Banks. Not the most "efficient" use of my time, but I had fun and got to experience PvP of a kind from the getgo.
As it is, I grind in doses and when I'm in the mood for it (and sometimes not). I go looking for a fight when I'm in the mood for it. Unlike some of the local trolls, I never felt the need to calculate how many thousands of PvE kills I would need before I could even think about PvPing.
I might be slower than your average hare, but like the tortoise, I'm pretty sure I'm going to end the race.. ganking as I go.
Very well said and absolutely correct.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
In the official darkfall forum, in the player section, they made a thread to honor the OP. It seem like he was in the road to be a really known darkfall player. All players there agree with his feelings exept one player and that is Xpiher.
That's not true - there are many of us in the official forums (and here) that don't want the game dumbed down to cater to a player base that doesn't want a challenging game. They want a 2 month path to uberville plain and simple.
Even in Wow it can take months pf grinding to get to a competitve point in PVP - after you suffer through getting to 80 you have the most boring repetitive endless grind of dungeon after dungeon after dungeon to get Epic gear - only to have to repeat the process when the next seasons uber fashions are announced. And Darkfall's grind sucks? Gimme a break.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
In the official darkfall forum, in the player section, they made a thread to honor the OP. It seem like he was in the road to be a really known darkfall player. All players there agree with his feelings exept one player and that is Xpiher.
That's not true - there are many of us in the official forums (and here) that don't want the game dumbed down to cater to a player base that doesn't want a challenging game. They want a 2 month path to uberville plain and simple.
Even in Wow it can take months pf grinding to get to a competitve point in PVP - after you suffer through getting to 80 you have the most boring repetitive endless grind of dungeon after dungeon after dungeon to get Epic gear - only to have to repeat the process when the next seasons uber fashions are announced. And Darkfall's grind sucks? Gimme a break.
Why do you care about the others? You can only create 1 character and you are already high enough. Stop caring about the others speed of raising their characters. Care about your own playstyle. After all, you are the one who scare of the pack of newb's with skilled mindset that might kill you once they are there. Instead, we end up leaving the game simply because we wanted a pvp game.
So please, simply tell me the truth. You fear the zerg in a sandbox game.
And please, stop comparing it with wow. We all know wow is a pve game. PVP is just an added feature. Not the main focus. Never intended to be. In faq, the only time ppl pvp is in BG's, arena's or winter graps. PVP in WOW is exactly like a sport game.
In the official darkfall forum, in the player section, they made a thread to honor the OP. It seem like he was in the road to be a really known darkfall player. All players there agree with his feelings exept one player and that is Xpiher.
That's not true - there are many of us in the official forums (and here) that don't want the game dumbed down to cater to a player base that doesn't want a challenging game. They want a 2 month path to uberville plain and simple.
Even in Wow it can take months pf grinding to get to a competitve point in PVP - after you suffer through getting to 80 you have the most boring repetitive endless grind of dungeon after dungeon after dungeon to get Epic gear - only to have to repeat the process when the next seasons uber fashions are announced. And Darkfall's grind sucks? Gimme a break.
The reason many people end up like holden is not that the grind is horrible,its that every single skill & area of the game becomes one because its more or less the same repetitive actions over and over. It doesnt matter if your working a combat skill, or generating resources via harvesting, or crafting. Every aspect is a huge time consuming repetitive action that frankly blurs together for most people, and what enjoyment that they do recieve, tends to fade.
You say to change it, to make skills less of an issue and progress faster is dumbing down the game. For me, i say that without some kind of change, then there is no reason to play darkfall, because i have no interest in doing repetitive tedious boring actions because AV cant or wont figure out how to create a more enjoyable game out of its non pvp aspects. People are not going to invest time into a game where repetitive actions are dominant and the gameplay frankly is not even that fun after you have swung your weapon twenty two thousand times at some mob, or swung a pickaxe or woodaxe at a tree for the ten thousandth time.
I left after 4 months last november, with a charecter i had spent 400k worth of resoruces on, and i was still less then 30% from a complete charecter. i was competitive in that i had archery mastery, 1h mastery, 2h mastery, fire & earth at high levels. It had nothing to do with the PVP or clan warfare part of DFO. The reason for leaving was sheer boredom and tedious nature of the other aspects of the game.
darkfall is a great clan warfare & pvp game, but unless it resolves the fundamental flaws in its design on the individual level, the majority of people who would support this game, never will.
The reason many people end up like holden is not that the grind is horrible,its that every single skill & area of the game becomes one because its more or less the same repetitive actions over and over. It doesnt matter if your working a combat skill, or generating resources via harvesting, or crafting. Every aspect is a huge time consuming repetitive action that frankly blurs together for most people, and what enjoyment that they do recieve, tends to fade.
You say to change it, to make skills less of an issue and progress faster is dumbing down the game. For me, i say that without some kind of change, then there is no reason to play darkfall, because i have no interest in doing repetitive tedious boring actions because AV cant or wont figure out how to create a more enjoyable game out of its non pvp aspects. People are not going to invest time into a game where repetitive actions are dominant and the gameplay frankly is not even that fun after you have swung your weapon twenty two thousand times at some mob, or swung a pickaxe or woodaxe at a tree for the ten thousandth time.
I left after 4 months last november, with a charecter i had spent 400k worth of resoruces on, and i was still less then 30% from a complete charecter. i was competitive in that i had archery mastery, 1h mastery, 2h mastery, fire & earth at high levels. It had nothing to do with the PVP or clan warfare part of DFO. The reason for leaving was sheer boredom and tedious nature of the other aspects of the game.
darkfall is a great clan warfare & pvp game, but unless it resolves the fundamental flaws in its design on the individual level, the majority of people who would support this game, never will.
Great post.
What I find sad is how many people defend the grind by claiming that the game would die without it - as if that's all there is to DF. What those players fail to realize is that if the game were actively populated and players were out hunting for fights (and had people to find!), the PVP in itself would heighten all of the currently available content to a far more enjoyable degree.
As it stands, grinding for months just so you can fight the 10 folks who raid your city every other week isn't exactly appealing (disclaimer: exaggeratoin is fun!). I just don't get how those folks don't realize that concept. Then again, I'd be more willing to guess that in fact they do, but refuse to give up their position as top of a food chain that's slowly dying off, and will eventually make them extinct.
Shame really. DF could be such an amazing game.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Comments
I think you're both losing site if what a lot of people are talking about.
This is as simple as I can think to put it, people don't want the challenge of DF to change (At least me), people want the kind of challenge it is to change. You can't tell me you'd keep the current system over a system that made the challenge of playing DF who was the better player, not who has the better character. Right now the game is setup to the point you are either a newb or you are a vet, there really is no middle ground. The game is also catered to those with macro keyboards and so forth... which I know DF 2010 is suppose to be fixing. Either way the challenge if the game at this time is who can grind more efficient, what clan has control over what exploitable mob. That isn't right, and if you defend the system in place I strongly feel you are one of those few people the current system is catered towards.
Long story short the game needs to change it's priorities, you'll either agree with me or you won't... but I have a feeling the vast majority of people will and do agree with my views.
Full Sail University - Game Design
TBH, I was just having a good time disputing coleman's arguments. Was good fun imo.
But yeah, I couldn't possibly agree more. As it stands, exploits rule the day, be it through mobs that don't fight back, AFK swimming, or macro'ing with a keyboard. All of these issues might still exist with a reduced grind, but their value would be far less and would really only serve the lazy, rather than the highly motivated.
Regardless, the game needs a change, as is echoed almost daily by those who quit, and only defended by the same people, time and again (Hey Darth! Where's Agricola?
). I'm with you in that those who are defending it fall into the category of the folks who the current system caters towards. Unfortunately, they feel that they're the nicheiest of niches, and are so pleased to have it, they'll rabidly defend it to the death without realizing just how amazing and fun the game could be, even for them, with some change...
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Sure, ill give you that, things can always be made better. Once again im not saying the design of Darkfall is perfect. However, it is what is it, and it doesnt matter what me and 100 other people on these forums say, its up too AV to make any real changes that are going to be made.
And this is all not necessarily true, there is a lot of player skill vs. player skill involved. Most battles actually end up being 1 V1 fights. Right now I have 262 health and greatsword mastery at 50. I can beat quite a few other players in my alliance 1v1 and they have health in the 290's and higher skills than me. Combat is fast paced and not everything is stat/ skill reliant. I know of quite a few higher skilled and statted players who get owned by mid level players regularly because they just arent good at PvP.
Your problem is that you are too focused on endgame. To those that truly enjoy Darkfall, the pleasure is in the journey, not the destination.
Its all about surviving that pve run and banking all that loot. Of going out with a group and surviving. Of stalking around and taking out that afk miner and getting away with it.
The problem is not the game, its the mindset. And the mindset has come from playing to many endgame games of a similar type.
Do you play Dragon Age for the final cutscene? Hell no. You need that attitude to play Darkfall.
Everytime I log on I feel the challenge, the risk. All that matters is today.
Darkfall, carpe deum.
Seize the day, and survive it.
Btw, I have played since NA release, have 65 knife mastery, 90+ in the archery masteries and only 75 swimming.
I have never macrod or afk'd. Ever.
With the recent patches I now have archery jumpshot (as well as aquashot). Jumpshot archery of mobs opens up a whole new range of mobs as killable.
Playing: Darkfall New Dawn (and planning to play Fallout 76)
Favourite games have included: UO, Lineage2, Darkfall, Lotro, Baldur's Gate, SSX, FF7 and yes the original Wizardry on an Apple IIe
yeah i'll second that, its Carpe Diem, but other than that good DF post.
I really find it hard to believe you never afk swam. Either you mine and log like a motherf*cker, you constantly pve/pvp with a melee weapon (highly unlikely considering I have like the same GS rating and I don't), or you're just lying about never afk swimming.
Well - I'm not sure how to measure that but I've never purchased or sold materials - I've mined...logged and gathered everything I've needed to advance crafting. As far as melee it's mostly been PVE and to date I've killed about 6K mobs.
I don't lie and I don't cheat and that's exactly what afk swimming is and I think it's really sad that so many people feel the need to cheat in a game and if that's all you're going to do if you come back then I'd rather you not.
As far as Fire Magic making me more competitive - yes indeed. Magic in the game is way OP and the higher your magic skills the better chance you have in combat. It's pretty sick to see how much power one player can have in this game - firing nukes that rival that of a ship. I mean - there's something wrong when one player can hit you with a myriad of spells and not only debuff you...blind you but knock off half your health in one shot.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Heh, I did afk swimming only one night. It's good to rise quickness (I got only 63 - it sucks!), but as to strength and vitality it helps not much. The best way to get your Str and Vit is fighting mobs. It took me 2 months to get 100/100 in Greatclub, and my hp is 336 now unbuffed...
Stop with the personal attacks and get back on topic please, thanks.
Oh man, last time i checked these forums you were calling me a troll for saying there is a huge PVE grind in Darkfall. Honestly I am glad you finally saw the light. It's hard to play darkfall without realizing what you did.Well, if AV wants to resume their fascist and conservative "grind while sleep or die during the day" policy, then at least let them implement an EvE-like mechanics of off-line progression. Or they could actually add some content to the game, reduce grind and let the game be fun most of the time. As it stands, the game is losing players not because it's tough or cruel or any of that macho crap, but simply because it's a boring grindfest that resembles a gulag concentration camp.
AV, so young and stupid, maybe in a few years they'll realize like Blizzard did that allowing the majority of people to have fun is the way to go.
Also, your not taking into account the political system in DFO. If a new player could jump in and be competitve statwise in a week or two to a 6 month veteran, then what would stop certain Zerg Clans (won't mention any names BLOOD) from just ammassing a bunch of trial accounts under their banner, giving them some weapons and armor and taking major holdings all over the map?
You're acting like dynamic and frequent large scale pvp would be a bad thing for the game. Btw, nobody is suggesting a trial account should be competative, but I am suggesting that a 45 day player should be competative.
Unfortunately, vets seem to not want to give up the advantage they "earned" by afk swimming and macroing and would rather sit in a city that is safe, just so they can afk macro all day instead of having to pvp all day... God forbid cities should be under constant threat and the game turn into some kind of constantly changing political pvp game. That would be awful, right?
people could lose their stuff! can't have that.
Gotta agree with Holden's asessment of the "vets".
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
Darkfall is very "old school". There IS a lot of grind. I'm not going to sit here and try "minimalize" the grind in Darkfall. It sucks at times. I feel it too. A lot could be done to make PvE and the grind more fun. But for me, the good still out weighs the bad.
I wonder however, if people aren't over exaggerating the time it takes for a Character to compete with the vets (someone who has played for a year).
In Wow (a game notorious for being easy) how long does it take to become "competitive" against a vet?
So how long does it take to get level 80? I want to say a month for the hardcore players, two for the more casual.
Once you make level 80 are you even then "competitive"? I seem to remember another couple months of "gearing" up to become pvp viable.
For me (it's been a while) I might expect to have my first Character to cap in about two months of playing and be decently geared after another 1 or 2 months.
So according to my rough estimate, I could be playing with the Bigboys in Wow within 4-5 months.
Okay, that seems acceptable, but again, we're talking Wow here...
What about Eve? After two months in Eve, the best I could really hope for is to have a ROLE. Like in Darkfall, a two month old player has only begun to scratch at the surface. He's not even CLOSE to being endgame ready/competitive.
But, he can certainly be "useful"... in a role.. as long as he doesn't expect to do it all.
After two months in Darkfall (with no macro'ing) I too can have a role. I swing or shoot away as I can. I parry up when targetted. I try to make more of a nuisance to my enemies than I do to my friends. I act as a meat shield. I revive and I gank. I scout and act as eyes and ears. I heal my friend's mounts. I heal my friends (when they aren't moving around the battlefield like madmen). I act as bait. I call for help when jumped.
Its not perfect and yes, I'd like to be MORE competitive against the vets, but I'm not exactly seeing the HUGE disparity between a two month Character in Darkfall and a two month Character in many other games.
A two month old Character in either game doesn't stand much of a chance against a vet. I'm not even sure you can say that a two month old Character in Wow has much chance against someone whose been playing for a year or more.
But what about at six months?
In Eve I started feeling competitive after hitting the six month mark. In Darkfall, I'm hoping it's about the same. Will I expect to have a 50/50 chance against someone who has played the game for a year and a half in Darkfall? Probably not. But thats one of the things I like about both games.
In Darkfall and in Eve (to a lesser extent), I feel my "levels" have been earned. I have the scars to prove it. Nothing has been handed to me. Noone has held my hand (and no I'm not immune to frustration or impatience), I however, don't mind taking the longer view.
Now.. all that said. That does not mean I don't think Darkfall shouldn't change some things and improve in others. Yes, I feel they could tweek the skill ups a bit, make it just a little faster. Yes the grind can wear you down, but we also have it in our power to minimalize the grind. To mix it up.
I left the starter town on day three and went Newbie Raiding. Until I joined a Clan, I spent my first month bound to a Chaos Stone and using Wilderness Banks. Not the most "efficient" use of my time, but I had fun and got to experience PvP of a kind from the getgo.
As it is, I grind in doses and when I'm in the mood for it (and sometimes not). I go looking for a fight when I'm in the mood for it. Unlike some of the local trolls, I never felt the need to calculate how many thousands of PvE kills I would need before I could even think about PvPing.
I might be slower than your average hare, but like the tortoise, I'm pretty sure I'm going to end the race.. ganking as I go.
The main problem for me is not the grind itself, but how it is implemented. Do we really need skill grind on EVERYTHING, like goddamn crouching, running, riding, seriously? There are so many skills to grind it's just absurd. And why oh why do I need to raise harvesting skills in such a lame manner that I have to stare at my character's back for hours and hours... on a monthly basis? It would be acceptable for me if I had to stare at my character's back for just one harvesting skill, but for ALL... are you kidding me? Harvesting/crafting alone in this game just begs you to do some serious botting/macroing because... what's the alternative here - staring mindlessly at the screen for days?!
Saddest thing of all is that the lamest means to obtain HP and STR, important pvp stats, is mindlessly staring at your character's back! So, to be competitive in pvp you literally need to... STARE until your eyes bleed out. What a joke!
It happens, but we do what we can.
In the official darkfall forum, in the player section, they made a thread to honor the OP. It seem like he was in the road to be a really known darkfall player. All players there agree with his feelings exept one player and that is Xpiher.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
Reaching max level does NOT equal nothing to do. I mean look at games like Counterstrike and Planetside - level realy mean nothing there, and yet people still play them for the PvP aspect of it. The difference is that Counterstrike and Planetside have end-game that relies on inter-person relations. meaning its never the same sieging the same base in Planeside or playing a round in Counter-strike. The same can be said of DF - if suddenly DF were to offer maxed out chars for all noobs, I bet there would be a huge influx of new players, followed by a small and steady influx of new pop - because similarely to CS and PS, sieging the same citi from other players is not the same as it was yesterday. Thats why people would not be bored from doing same routine over and over. NPCs, unfortunately, do not offer such creativity. No goblin with however good AI can offer unique fight everytime you fight them. Eventually, you will know ALL there is to know about the AI and the fight with them will become boring, aka grindy.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
As I have stated countless times in this thread. I am in my 6th week of play, and I am just now finding myself to be somewhat competant in PvP. My Skills are not stellar but they're becoming acceptable.
I have
263 health. Piss poor but im working on it.
90 Greatsword skill / 50 Greatsword Mastery
75 Archery / 25 Sharpshooter
75 Witchcraft for Witches Brew
30 Spell Chanting for Sacrifice
75 Fire Magic / 75 FireBall (working on getting it too 100)
I'm seriously not trolling or being mean here, but noone cares.
Thanks @ Realbigdeal for the info on the post at the official forum. Very long, but interesting read so far, and I'm not even halfway done.
Honestly, how folks like the one above can't step back and see the bigger picture is beyond me. Darkfall's grind has be the single most talked about topic since I watched it from its release. I ignored it at the start. I fell in love with the game. I eventually burned out like the vast majority. The grind is not OK, it merely caters to a handful of extremely defensive folks who'd let their precious die before seeing it change.
Also, that one guy's signature is pretty awesome:
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Very well said and absolutely correct.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
That's not true - there are many of us in the official forums (and here) that don't want the game dumbed down to cater to a player base that doesn't want a challenging game. They want a 2 month path to uberville plain and simple.
Even in Wow it can take months pf grinding to get to a competitve point in PVP - after you suffer through getting to 80 you have the most boring repetitive endless grind of dungeon after dungeon after dungeon to get Epic gear - only to have to repeat the process when the next seasons uber fashions are announced. And Darkfall's grind sucks? Gimme a break.
Currently playing SWTOR and it's MUCH better than it was at launch.
Why do you care about the others? You can only create 1 character and you are already high enough. Stop caring about the others speed of raising their characters. Care about your own playstyle. After all, you are the one who scare of the pack of newb's with skilled mindset that might kill you once they are there. Instead, we end up leaving the game simply because we wanted a pvp game.
So please, simply tell me the truth. You fear the zerg in a sandbox game.
And please, stop comparing it with wow. We all know wow is a pve game. PVP is just an added feature. Not the main focus. Never intended to be. In faq, the only time ppl pvp is in BG's, arena's or winter graps. PVP in WOW is exactly like a sport game.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
The reason many people end up like holden is not that the grind is horrible,its that every single skill & area of the game becomes one because its more or less the same repetitive actions over and over. It doesnt matter if your working a combat skill, or generating resources via harvesting, or crafting. Every aspect is a huge time consuming repetitive action that frankly blurs together for most people, and what enjoyment that they do recieve, tends to fade.
You say to change it, to make skills less of an issue and progress faster is dumbing down the game. For me, i say that without some kind of change, then there is no reason to play darkfall, because i have no interest in doing repetitive tedious boring actions because AV cant or wont figure out how to create a more enjoyable game out of its non pvp aspects. People are not going to invest time into a game where repetitive actions are dominant and the gameplay frankly is not even that fun after you have swung your weapon twenty two thousand times at some mob, or swung a pickaxe or woodaxe at a tree for the ten thousandth time.
I left after 4 months last november, with a charecter i had spent 400k worth of resoruces on, and i was still less then 30% from a complete charecter. i was competitive in that i had archery mastery, 1h mastery, 2h mastery, fire & earth at high levels. It had nothing to do with the PVP or clan warfare part of DFO. The reason for leaving was sheer boredom and tedious nature of the other aspects of the game.
darkfall is a great clan warfare & pvp game, but unless it resolves the fundamental flaws in its design on the individual level, the majority of people who would support this game, never will.
Great post.
What I find sad is how many people defend the grind by claiming that the game would die without it - as if that's all there is to DF. What those players fail to realize is that if the game were actively populated and players were out hunting for fights (and had people to find!), the PVP in itself would heighten all of the currently available content to a far more enjoyable degree.
As it stands, grinding for months just so you can fight the 10 folks who raid your city every other week isn't exactly appealing (disclaimer: exaggeratoin is fun!). I just don't get how those folks don't realize that concept. Then again, I'd be more willing to guess that in fact they do, but refuse to give up their position as top of a food chain that's slowly dying off, and will eventually make them extinct.
Shame really. DF could be such an amazing game.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde