This horrible article just goes to show how terrible this site really is. Good thing they give out free things. It's lovely how he(the person that typed this "article" in; I haven't got the time nor does he deserve it for me to look up his name) can insult the users of this website, but if, for example, I say something bad about their favourite and oh-so-treasured "MMORPG" I get a ban or a warning. This is just trash and has nothing to do with MMORPGs. If you feel you have to relieve the stress this work gives you, there are these things called 'blogs'.
I think the article could have been better if it hadn't been so one-sided. It seems heavily skewed toward the side of, "Forums are a place for formal, scholastic-type debate," without acknowledging that, at the least, forums can also be places for casual conversation.
I certainly think that gaming forums are more likely to fall into the latter category than the former. People log on to gaming forums (and really most forums, I think) as a form of recreation. That recreation may very well take the form of engaging in structured debate in which posters support their statements and rebuttals with facts and sound reason, but it's also valid for people to just show up and join in on a conversation.
Originally posted by Stradden
It's arrogant - It's insulting, and somewhat arrogant to assume that people should agree with your gut reactions without any reason to do so. It's arrogant to assume that because you said it, it doesn't require any kind of justification or reason.
Just because someone posts an opinion does not mean that they necessarily require others to agree with it. In particular, if you are one who approaches forums with the idea that they are places for casual conversation, stating your opinion is just a way to participate. In this context, it's not wrong or worthless to do so. Sure, you could go the extra mile and make your participation that much more impactful by supporting your opinion, but we don't need the ForumFuzz coming down on people who just want be a part of the group. I suppose that's really difference. Some people post "arguments" some people post "opinions."
Furthermore, the "worthless" replies you mention are (usually) short - they don't take much time to read, and in most cases get skipped right over in favor of "meatier" material. So really, what's the big deal?
many people only feel the urge to respond to what they don't agree with,
not many people bother to respond to something that makes sense, like saying "I think you got it spot on".
It's a weird thing.
Good point.
heh heh, but seriously, you go it spot on. It's difficult to agree with someone in more than a few words - unless you're expounding on the point they were making, and then it's very difficult not to seem like you're correcting that person.
So, Jon, should anyone who agrees with a post be required to remain silent, so as to avoid making a "worthless" post, or might we allow them to write out their opinion for everyone to see?
Frankly, I think this article on "worthless replies" is silly. Worse it's possibly a little bit arrogant (I'll expand on that).
Sometimes a very short reply is all that's warranted.
For example, in the top 10 mmo's thread linked above, you criticised a poster for a short reply. And he gave you a very reasonable response to the effect that the original article was just plain poor.
I happen to have agreed with the poster. While I was more detailed and verbose in my response I don't think there was any problem with his.
This is a fact - intelligence and the ability to make a cohesive argument varies. So does the amount of time any individual forum member has to devote to a single post. Someone might agree or disagree with something and not have the time, effort, or ability to make anything but a short reply.
If they're in complete agreement, a very brief response is, I think, the perfect response. If they've nothing to add, then just voicing their agreement is a perfectly valid response.
Trolling is a problem. So are things like straw arguments etc. But I think it's shameful some of the things you've described as "worthless" replies.
1. It is hardly out of order for anyone to suggest that the level of discussion on these forums could be lifted. No, I won't give any examples (thus violating Jon's prescription!). Some things are obvious.
2. The inevitable response is that anyone who has posted on this forum will more or less tend to take offense. Even, and perhaps most particularly, those who have made an effort to convey ideas they believe may be of interest to others --- because those people care about the people who will be reading their post --- and since they all have a limited time to write a post --- they know it is not perfect! While those who are the real target won't care, will insta-rationalize, or think...game on! Let's have some more fun!
So I have to agree with the poster who asked who the target audience might be. From a practical standpoint.
But on the other hand, it does get tiresome. Maybe one person who reads it will think twice before posting next time. One can always hope.
MMORPG.com's Jon Wood spends some time this week talking about single phrase replies on MMORPG forums, and how while they may feel good to make, they don't do anyone any good.
... it's not that anyone's thoughts, comments or emotions are actually worthless. They are, in fact, completely valid and important to the person expressing them. They are, however, almost completely useless to anyone who would read them, whether it be here at MMORPG.com or elsewhere.
Not quite true. For one to suggest that a brief or prompt reply or expression is useless or meaningless all the time is a pretty myopic or intolerant view. In order of response to the 1, 2, 3.
Wow, I sense a little bit of the good old conspiracy theory here. I wasn't writing this column as a treatise on how our site should be moderated. I was writing it as a piece dedicated to talking about useful replies from which information can be gathered and useless ones from which nothing can.
I thought it was quite obvious, though apparently not, that I wasn't talking about the occasional lol or /agree. I also have no problem with brevity. My issue is with people who expound a specific opinion as though it were the gospel truth, without any supporting dialogue with which to be convinced or argue.
There is an epidemic right now , especially in the MMO world, of people frequently complaining that their thoughts and / or statements aren't taken into account by others, especially developers. This is a contributing factor to that. But yeah, it's more fun to complain bitterly than understand the context of the article.
The context of what is being said is as important as the words being used.
It certainly wasn't obvious about the 'occasional' comment impression, but this is a 2-dimensional environment and more often than not, things are taken way out of context because of that, which is why I injected the j/k type because I dont know your sense of humor.
I work from home and can see more of my fair share of exchanges that disappear and others that remark quite frequently about 'warnings' for seemingly frivilous things; but again, I dont have a horse in the race, nor do I tend to take sides, but call it as I see it the best I can. Like everyone else, Im not short on opinions. But over-moderation is more of a hinderance than a help, and I clearly understand the difference and have even seen no moderation on some very apparent situations
So aside from that, this is not personal, though I'll be honest, your kidding yourself if you think developers are watching mmorpg.com for insight. If that were the case, maybe I wouldnt have felt like the victim of a mokey throwing feces at the audience for the past 7 years for the products that they have been delivering;there are a handful that are successful or popular in a sea of mediocrity and sameness.
many people only feel the urge to respond to what they don't agree with,
not many people bother to respond to something that makes sense, like saying "I think you got it spot on".
It's a weird thing.
Good point.
I completely disagree. There are as many passionate "spot on" continual posts that continue to flood a thread as there are passionate "your way off" posts.
Edit: So just wanted to say, thanks for sharing all, but to refrain from continually saying the same thing but with different words and copywriting, I will say, farewell to this thread and move-on.
Wow, I sense a little bit of the good old conspiracy theory here. I wasn't writing this column as a treatise on how our site should be moderated. I was writing it as a piece dedicated to talking about useful replies from which information can be gathered and useless ones from which nothing can.
I thought it was quite obvious, though apparently not, that I wasn't talking about the occasional lol or /agree. I also have no problem with brevity. My issue is with people who expound a specific opinion as though it were the gospel truth, without any supporting dialogue with which to be convinced or argue.
There is an epidemic right now , especially in the MMO world, of people frequently complaining that their thoughts and / or statements aren't taken into account by others, especially developers. This is a contributing factor to that. But yeah, it's more fun to complain bitterly than understand the context of the article.
The context of what is being said is as important as the words being used.
The topic of this article is a "damned if you do, damned it you don't" subject. I would venture to guess that those people who don't have have a habit of making lots of "wothless replies" probably understood the intent of the article, what you were trying to say and appreciated that someone (else) was trying to raise the level of discussions on this site by raising the awareness of its users.
Now on the other side of the coin I think there are actually two sub groups of people that are more inclined to make "worthless replies". The first group are those that simply don't realize they're not being very expressive and could be contributing more if they were more substantitive/constructive. IMHO these are likely to be the people who are genuienly upset with what the article said, because, they feel like the negative connotation was directed towards them and it wasn't. This group needs to A) Know there is a problem; and Know how to fix it. Once they have A and B then theres no issue anymore.
The second group are those that use the anonimity of the internet to do and say whatever they want because they think there are no reprocussions for their actions. These people don't want to put in the effort to improve, show respect to others or just don't care and are more than happy to say or do whatever they feel like.
I use to write epic, war and peace scale replies...
but very few people red them and / or left replies or left dismissive single word replies.
I got a lot of "wall of text" type things. 99% of posters don't read anything longer then a paragraph. 99% of posters don't have 20 minutes to type 'war and peace".
Lesson: if others won't take the time, why should I? I blog now, anything interesting I have to say is on there.
First, not always one word reply is very hard to understand. When in a discussion someone says "it sucks" for any game, you don't need to be an extra terrestrial to understand his/her disappointment, whatever the reason may be. If I don't like any products, don't I have the right to just say "I don't like it."? Do I always have to carry a moral obligation to explain it in detail why do I feel so? I doubt that.
The most important thing is, this article appears very offensive to me. Didn't internet teach you to respect other's freedom? Whether someone's reply doesn't carry any meaning or not, (s)he has the right (more accurately 'freedom') to express himself/herself. And you also have the complete freedom to respond to those reply or just ignore. All over the internet forums/BBs promote the freedom of speech. If something they don't want in their forums they clearly mention that in forum TnC. So if you don't like MMORPG.com forum members to express freely and want to make them speak the way you want then you should mention that in your TnC.
Someone in this discussion said this article intended for the people who are seeking attention but don't get it. It's a guide to inform them how to get that. Well, after reading the article twice I couldn't find such intention. That could be due my lack of intelligence or little grasp on English. If that's the case anyway, there's a lot better way to represent that. So far I can remember, there's one word called "decency" in english dictionary. So the title of the article could use any word but "worthless". Who are you do you think to decide the worthiness of something. Something may appear worthless to you but might be very worthy to someone else. Any statement's worthiness is not limited by your understanding.
A good programmer is the person who creates thousands of bugs while fixing hundreds!
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW -------- Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD --------- Played and loved: Eve and WoW -------- Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
We all like to come off as jerks sometimes in our posts. Its too easy to get away with.
However, I can't help but feel that in order to maintain the site's professional integrity, employees of the website should get there fix of this behavior on alternative accounts. Its starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth.. I feel like by coming here often and using it as a means of entertainment I am funding the lifestyles of a few guys who like to "act like a douches." Its very unprofessional and impossible to respect.
(Please refer to Admin's behavior in the SC2 thread, where he said people were being douches and then said he was allowed to say things like that, and Jon's smartass retorts such as "Comprehension is fun").
Don't let the site go downhill because of your own emotions. When an case such as the SC2 article comes around and pisses off a lot of people, instead of being asses back to them maybe you could have just kept quiet and taken note of how that kind of article will be received in the future.
Wordy, off topic replies about isolated instances of bad behavior probably fall more into the worthless category than most one liners.
Sometimes a single line reply is just perfect, and in rare cases, even a single word can nail it down as a valid response or can convey how a person feels, especially if the OP asks for our opinions.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Why do people think these forums are the only place to get meaningless replies!!! You can turn on the Television and get the same sort of responses from places like Fox news or Air America on the radio. The only difference being that "here" a regular Joe can express his ( or Her ) opinion. I, for one, am willing to listen to some unintelligent drool because it is evidance that the Constitution of the United States is still in action!!!!!
isn't the author of this the same mmorpg employee who took "donations" from gaming companies in exchnage for good game reviews and now is developing his own game? he admited this himself in case you are wondering.
Comments
This horrible article just goes to show how terrible this site really is. Good thing they give out free things. It's lovely how he(the person that typed this "article" in; I haven't got the time nor does he deserve it for me to look up his name) can insult the users of this website, but if, for example, I say something bad about their favourite and oh-so-treasured "MMORPG" I get a ban or a warning. This is just trash and has nothing to do with MMORPGs. If you feel you have to relieve the stress this work gives you, there are these things called 'blogs'.
Pathetic.
I'm just cool like that.
I think the article could have been better if it hadn't been so one-sided. It seems heavily skewed toward the side of, "Forums are a place for formal, scholastic-type debate," without acknowledging that, at the least, forums can also be places for casual conversation.
I certainly think that gaming forums are more likely to fall into the latter category than the former. People log on to gaming forums (and really most forums, I think) as a form of recreation. That recreation may very well take the form of engaging in structured debate in which posters support their statements and rebuttals with facts and sound reason, but it's also valid for people to just show up and join in on a conversation.
Just because someone posts an opinion does not mean that they necessarily require others to agree with it. In particular, if you are one who approaches forums with the idea that they are places for casual conversation, stating your opinion is just a way to participate. In this context, it's not wrong or worthless to do so. Sure, you could go the extra mile and make your participation that much more impactful by supporting your opinion, but we don't need the ForumFuzz coming down on people who just want be a part of the group. I suppose that's really difference. Some people post "arguments" some people post "opinions."Furthermore, the "worthless" replies you mention are (usually) short - they don't take much time to read, and in most cases get skipped right over in favor of "meatier" material. So really, what's the big deal?
Funny thing;
if you write something which is in context, and nobody replies -> you've done it correctly.
if you write something which is in context, and many replies -> you're likely to've written something bad.
So whenever I write a formal and rational topic or post with a good headline, I get little replies.
But if I write a bashing post, or a topic with a title like "One of the reasons this game will be a giant success" I get plenty of replies. (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/270424/One-of-the-reasons-this-game-will-be-a-giant-success-.html)
So when I get no replies at all, I can go to sleep knowing I did good today.
It's a weird thing;
many people only feel the urge to respond to what they don't agree with,
not many people bother to respond to something that makes sense, like saying "I think you got it spot on".
It's a weird thing.
Turn the lights on and the roaches hiss in protest.
Good point.
heh heh, but seriously, you go it spot on. It's difficult to agree with someone in more than a few words - unless you're expounding on the point they were making, and then it's very difficult not to seem like you're correcting that person.
So, Jon, should anyone who agrees with a post be required to remain silent, so as to avoid making a "worthless" post, or might we allow them to write out their opinion for everyone to see?
So Jon Wood is referring to things like this.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/274851
Frankly, I think this article on "worthless replies" is silly. Worse it's possibly a little bit arrogant (I'll expand on that).
Sometimes a very short reply is all that's warranted.
For example, in the top 10 mmo's thread linked above, you criticised a poster for a short reply. And he gave you a very reasonable response to the effect that the original article was just plain poor.
I happen to have agreed with the poster. While I was more detailed and verbose in my response I don't think there was any problem with his.
This is a fact - intelligence and the ability to make a cohesive argument varies. So does the amount of time any individual forum member has to devote to a single post. Someone might agree or disagree with something and not have the time, effort, or ability to make anything but a short reply.
If they're in complete agreement, a very brief response is, I think, the perfect response. If they've nothing to add, then just voicing their agreement is a perfectly valid response.
Trolling is a problem. So are things like straw arguments etc. But I think it's shameful some of the things you've described as "worthless" replies.
Ah, but you are, judging by your double entendre there.
Today's conundrum.
1. It is hardly out of order for anyone to suggest that the level of discussion on these forums could be lifted. No, I won't give any examples (thus violating Jon's prescription!). Some things are obvious.
2. The inevitable response is that anyone who has posted on this forum will more or less tend to take offense. Even, and perhaps most particularly, those who have made an effort to convey ideas they believe may be of interest to others --- because those people care about the people who will be reading their post --- and since they all have a limited time to write a post --- they know it is not perfect! While those who are the real target won't care, will insta-rationalize, or think...game on! Let's have some more fun!
So I have to agree with the poster who asked who the target audience might be. From a practical standpoint.
But on the other hand, it does get tiresome. Maybe one person who reads it will think twice before posting next time. One can always hope.
---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
I enjoy making short responses, and I don't care if people find them worthless.
I'm not here to complete my forum PVP dailies.
HAHAHAHA! Absolutely brilliantly sardonic comment! What fantastic, Kafkaesquen imagery. Thanks! You made my day.
It certainly wasn't obvious about the 'occasional' comment impression, but this is a 2-dimensional environment and more often than not, things are taken way out of context because of that, which is why I injected the j/k type because I dont know your sense of humor.
I work from home and can see more of my fair share of exchanges that disappear and others that remark quite frequently about 'warnings' for seemingly frivilous things; but again, I dont have a horse in the race, nor do I tend to take sides, but call it as I see it the best I can. Like everyone else, Im not short on opinions. But over-moderation is more of a hinderance than a help, and I clearly understand the difference and have even seen no moderation on some very apparent situations
So aside from that, this is not personal, though I'll be honest, your kidding yourself if you think developers are watching mmorpg.com for insight. If that were the case, maybe I wouldnt have felt like the victim of a mokey throwing feces at the audience for the past 7 years for the products that they have been delivering;there are a handful that are successful or popular in a sea of mediocrity and sameness.
I completely disagree. There are as many passionate "spot on" continual posts that continue to flood a thread as there are passionate "your way off" posts.
Edit: So just wanted to say, thanks for sharing all, but to refrain from continually saying the same thing but with different words and copywriting, I will say, farewell to this thread and move-on.
The topic of this article is a "damned if you do, damned it you don't" subject. I would venture to guess that those people who don't have have a habit of making lots of "wothless replies" probably understood the intent of the article, what you were trying to say and appreciated that someone (else) was trying to raise the level of discussions on this site by raising the awareness of its users.
Now on the other side of the coin I think there are actually two sub groups of people that are more inclined to make "worthless replies". The first group are those that simply don't realize they're not being very expressive and could be contributing more if they were more substantitive/constructive. IMHO these are likely to be the people who are genuienly upset with what the article said, because, they feel like the negative connotation was directed towards them and it wasn't. This group needs to A) Know there is a problem; and
Know how to fix it. Once they have A and B then theres no issue anymore.
The second group are those that use the anonimity of the internet to do and say whatever they want because they think there are no reprocussions for their actions. These people don't want to put in the effort to improve, show respect to others or just don't care and are more than happy to say or do whatever they feel like.
I use to write epic, war and peace scale replies...
but very few people red them and / or left replies or left dismissive single word replies.
I got a lot of "wall of text" type things. 99% of posters don't read anything longer then a paragraph. 99% of posters don't have 20 minutes to type 'war and peace".
Lesson: if others won't take the time, why should I? I blog now, anything interesting I have to say is on there.
That's shocking.
First, not always one word reply is very hard to understand. When in a discussion someone says "it sucks" for any game, you don't need to be an extra terrestrial to understand his/her disappointment, whatever the reason may be. If I don't like any products, don't I have the right to just say "I don't like it."? Do I always have to carry a moral obligation to explain it in detail why do I feel so? I doubt that.
The most important thing is, this article appears very offensive to me. Didn't internet teach you to respect other's freedom? Whether someone's reply doesn't carry any meaning or not, (s)he has the right (more accurately 'freedom') to express himself/herself. And you also have the complete freedom to respond to those reply or just ignore. All over the internet forums/BBs promote the freedom of speech. If something they don't want in their forums they clearly mention that in forum TnC. So if you don't like MMORPG.com forum members to express freely and want to make them speak the way you want then you should mention that in your TnC.
Someone in this discussion said this article intended for the people who are seeking attention but don't get it. It's a guide to inform them how to get that. Well, after reading the article twice I couldn't find such intention. That could be due my lack of intelligence or little grasp on English. If that's the case anyway, there's a lot better way to represent that. So far I can remember, there's one word called "decency" in english dictionary. So the title of the article could use any word but "worthless". Who are you do you think to decide the worthiness of something. Something may appear worthless to you but might be very worthy to someone else. Any statement's worthiness is not limited by your understanding.
A good programmer is the person who creates thousands of bugs while fixing hundreds!
cool story bro (kidding)
meh
Playing: *sigh* back to WoW
--------
Waiting for: SW:TOR, APB, WoD
---------
Played and loved: Eve and WoW
--------
Played and hated: WoW:WotLK, Warhammer, every single F2P
meh..
We all like to come off as jerks sometimes in our posts. Its too easy to get away with.
However, I can't help but feel that in order to maintain the site's professional integrity, employees of the website should get there fix of this behavior on alternative accounts. Its starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth.. I feel like by coming here often and using it as a means of entertainment I am funding the lifestyles of a few guys who like to "act like a douches." Its very unprofessional and impossible to respect.
(Please refer to Admin's behavior in the SC2 thread, where he said people were being douches and then said he was allowed to say things like that, and Jon's smartass retorts such as "Comprehension is fun").
Don't let the site go downhill because of your own emotions. When an case such as the SC2 article comes around and pisses off a lot of people, instead of being asses back to them maybe you could have just kept quiet and taken note of how that kind of article will be received in the future.
Wordy, off topic replies about isolated instances of bad behavior probably fall more into the worthless category than most one liners.
Sometimes a single line reply is just perfect, and in rare cases, even a single word can nail it down as a valid response or can convey how a person feels, especially if the OP asks for our opinions.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
/signed (with irony)
Why do people think these forums are the only place to get meaningless replies!!! You can turn on the Television and get the same sort of responses from places like Fox news or Air America on the radio. The only difference being that "here" a regular Joe can express his ( or Her ) opinion. I, for one, am willing to listen to some unintelligent drool because it is evidance that the Constitution of the United States is still in action!!!!!
Disagree
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
that article was dumb, no literally it was dumb!
lots of words, didn't say a damned thing ...
also: this posting editor thingy sucks, get rid of it and find one with a spell checker. would solve 90% of the problems with illegible posts..
isn't the author of this the same mmorpg employee who took "donations" from gaming companies in exchnage for good game reviews and now is developing his own game? he admited this himself in case you are wondering.