The only games to try to make a virtual world since then is Vanguard (they made an AMAZING world) and Darkfall.
Hopefully we'll see more some day before the WoW/Farmvile/SWTOR mini game linear instanced trifecta kills the market completely.
Good luck...if I felt the same way you do I would have moved on a long time ago since hardly anything in the near future looks to be going the Vanguard/Darkfall direction. sorry....
Look at today's music scene.. All the bad music is popular and on the radio, all the good music is underground.
I love the wild-eyed subjectivity of this statement, it reveals a lot about this kind of thinking. The reason music is on the radio is because it is popular and the reason it is popular is because MOST PEOPLE LIKE IT! Therefore, according to the majority of music listeners, that music is *GOOD*!
According to the majority, the music this poster likes is *BAD*!
What we see here is an example of why these kinds of arguments fail. The poster assumes that their minority position is superior, simply because they hold it and because their own position is so superior, everyone else ought to hold it too.
Doesn't work that way in the real world.
[Mod Edit]
The fast food and pop mysic analogy is old and doesn't fit. It never has. You know why? Fast food is generally based on quality fast food at a low price. More people eat it because it is convienent. So yes , because it is popular doesn't make it better than great food at your local restaraunt. However with WoW it is an mmorpg just like any other mmorpg, people can play it or they can play anythign else they like for less! That's right, they can play all theose other games for the same price or less! Hell, throw in the MT store that WoW has now, and WoW could be absurdly more expensive than other mmorpg's out there. So why do they play it? You say it's cause they are sheep, I call BS! For the most part people play it because it is the best alternative out there.
Is it the best mmorpg on the market? That would be subjective but it sure isn't what you make it out to be. Would I prefer an awesome virtual world? I sure would, but there isn't much out there that get's it right and is worth wastign my money on. I prefer Wow because it is good not because Im a sheep. Labeling people sheep, fanboy's and drooler's just because you don't like a game is childish and also insulting. WoW is what it is, a great game.
The only games to try to make a virtual world since then is Vanguard (they made an AMAZING world) and Darkfall.
Hopefully we'll see more some day before the WoW/Farmvile/SWTOR mini game linear instanced trifecta kills the market completely.
Good luck...if I felt the same way you do I would have moved on a long time ago since hardly anything in the near future looks to be going the Vanguard/Darkfall direction. sorry....
That's why I'm not looking forward to any MMOs in the future.
After Turbine destroyed LotRO and turned it into a WoW clone, after SoE killed off Vanguard before it could even come out, I'm very jaded towards the market. I'm still playing Darkfall, and will continue to check out Vanguard for nostalgic reasons now and again. First time since Star Wars Galaxies was announced that I'm not looking forward to any MMO on the horizon. How has the market fallen this bad? Hell, I'd even go for a DAoC remake, but despite having millions of dollars and hundreds of coders, MMO companies can't even slightly reproduce the quality of games made with 30 people
Look at today's music scene.. All the bad music is popular and on the radio, all the good music is underground.
I love the wild-eyed subjectivity of this statement, it reveals a lot about this kind of thinking. The reason music is on the radio is because it is popular and the reason it is popular is because MOST PEOPLE LIKE IT! Therefore, according to the majority of music listeners, that music is *GOOD*!
According to the majority, the music this poster likes is *BAD*!
What we see here is an example of why these kinds of arguments fail. The poster assumes that their minority position is superior, simply because they hold it and because their own position is so superior, everyone else ought to hold it too.
Doesn't work that way in the real world.
[Mod Edit]
Whether the vast majority of people are geniuses or idiots is irrelevant. The vast majority of people represent the vast majority of money to be made in the MMO industry and thus, are going to get the vast majority of attention, as well they should. I love how you keep insisting that your way is the best way because you say it is.
You're right though. Most people are idiots, including most people who want to play the games you want to play. Just because it's unpopular doesn't mean the people who play it are any more intelligent than anyone else.
Using your reasoning, the only reason the old games are still in existence is because the people playing them are too stupid to move on.
By that same line of thought, though, even the AAA themeparks that are being cranked out aren't measuring up. If we were to go with this line, only WoW and maybe LOTRO (last I heard around 750K, don't hold me to that number though) are the only ones that are. Yet that "type" of game is still being cranked out in monopoly fashion. Makes no sense to me. After this many games not meeting that standard of I were a financial backer I'd wonder a little about this method of making MMOs. Eve is good, sure, but it wasn't made by a AAA company (at the time) and it was made, what 6 or 7 years ago? Add to that it it doesn't give the player a humaoid avatar which turns off many folks regardless of themepark or sandbox preference.
But you also have to remember that all those other games launched with issues that just couldn't be ignored by the player base.
I would say that the only other game that launched with a very promising launch was Aion. Problem is that the players who were attracted to it (a good many) came from wow. They then made comparisons and felt the game didn't have as much content, felt it was too grindy, crafting had luck to it and cost money, etc and went back to wow.
Now, in a vacuum when only comparing wow and aion I would have to say "well sure". WoW has been out far longer and has far more content, the levelng seems easier and it seems very user friendly in that you can discover the game without having to partake or be subjected to pvp.
But when really looking at "korean grind games", Aion is so completely far from that model that one would laugh if you put it in the same breath as Lineage 2 or Archlord for example.
So sure, they westernized it but not enough for players used to games like WoW.
But having experienced the good launches of LOTRO and Aion I do have to say that games like AoC and Warhammer did not fare as well. Vanguard as well.
So what's happending is that developers are still looking at WoW and saying "well, those other games had issues but if we can get those issues right then we can succeed".
My thought is that the things they need to get right are things like polish and game play that makes sense throughout the leveling to cap.
But when I logged into Warhammer at launch and my cape is appearing (I turned it off) every time I zone or the enemy AI is wonky it doesn't lend itself to the feeling of a great product. Conan felt equally as cheap. Boty games felt rickety. Add to that AoC's 1-20 experience of tortage which sets players up for a certain game experience only for them to then get out into the real world and have npc's that don't have voice acting, many fetch/kill quests, etc and it's as if the players were given a bait and switch.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The only games to try to make a virtual world since then is Vanguard (they made an AMAZING world) and Darkfall.
Hopefully we'll see more some day before the WoW/Farmvile/SWTOR mini game linear instanced trifecta kills the market completely.
You are delusional if you think these games will "kill" the market. In fact, WOW takes OVER the market. THe market GREW thanks to Blizzard's insight of how to make a fun game.
Believe me with todays mmo gamers and thats about 90% will not play a game where they have to fight over same bosses with others you will have wholeday long crying kids(adults even) and ask devs to protect them from stealing there boss lol.
Thats why almost all mmo's today have private instance, these days players dont have mentelity anymore to realy fight for something and afterwards saying ok nextime we win and go on, whole community have chance after WoW.
The reason for instancing is cost reduction. Do your homework.
The reason for instanced dungeons is BETTER GAMEPLAY!!! FACT! There is NOTHING in a an EQ or DAOC that comes close to what occurs in dungeons in WOW. If you haven't personally witnesses all of it. Go look at some videos. EQ and DAOC was all/mostly tank and spank. Not so in WOW. Instanced dungeons allow for much more varied, scripted and dynamic gameplay and bosses. You just can't do that in an open world dungeons where other player can just join in any time. The scrips would all fall apart. Thats why those old bosses were all tank and spank. Cost reduction has nothing to do with it. Its about creating a better dungeon experience, since I don't know whats all that immersive about an amazing dungeon packed with people camping spawns all day long and chatting. Shared dungeons like in WAR worked out well, but you need instancing. No one will go back to the old EQ/DAOC way of doing things. Its just not fun.
Instanced outdoor areas on the other hand is another story. Even with the best servers in the world, when enough players get in one spot the game is unplayable. You have to find ways to split them up and instancing is the only way, OR insane travel times to keep people separated as much as possible. I personally don't like the AOC, DDO, way of world structure. Too phoney. But certain types of dungeons need to be instanced in order to expand & advance gameplay. Other players kill stealing isn't dynamic. Its just annoying and pointless and NOT fun once you get over the initial cool factor of knowing you screwed up someone's day.
Your so called "better gameplay" is your subjective opinion regarding certain design decisions and game mechanics.
Subjective.
Nowadays, because of these so called "better gameplay" people have no freedom, only linearity.
Because these so called "better gameplay" games focus on combat. Everyone has to follow the developers scripted path.
"Everyone is a hero mechanics."
To me, "better gameplay" was when there was great rewards achievable only by a few. And why a few? Because only a few were skilled enough, only a few would spend the required time and effort, only a few were inteligent enough, only a few were organized enough. There was the time when players behind the characters mattered. Nowadays, they dont.
That was the "better gameplay". In fact, the "GOLDEN ERA OF THE GAMEPLAY" was when individual traits of players mattered. Nowadays, in games, every player is like a generic industrialized product, another prisoner wearing an orange suit, in shackles.
Nowadays, because of your "better gameplay" everyone is deemed equal, "fair and balanced", little or no effort, and when a certain effort is needed, its effort and rewards are limited by caps.
And no sir, that was just the excuse game companies used to introduce instancing and all its economic advantages while still benefitting from the marketing slogan of "MMORPG". They didnt changed it to please the players. And if you insist, search for the history of how Guild Wars came to be. "Free" at the cost of "Instancing". It has nothing to do with "Oh, it took me 3 days competing for a boss that rarely drops an item I need" People love this. Gaming psychology.
Sure .. "better gameplay" is subjective. One man's fun is another man's boredom. However, if MILLIONS of people SUBJECTIVELY think linear combat-based gameplay is fun, can't you blame developers to meet that demand?
If YOUR subjective "fun gameplay" has a small audience .. then too bad for you.
On a side...minor things like waiting for a ship, shuttle, ferry, etc are not bad game design in a virtual world. They add one more bit of authenticity to the game....aiding in the suspension of disbelief. When the world feels more real, the game feels more immersive, and you're less likely to get bored in two months and come running to this forum complaining about how MMORPGs suck these days.
LOL .. asking the players to do NOTHING for 10 min is not bad game design??? We don't want games to be more "real". Should they require you to go to the bathroom and sit for 10 min every 5 hrs too? How is that for realism. People play games to get AWAY from real life, not the other way around.
Oh no .. it won't take two months to get bored with a game that requires me to stand around for 10 min .. it will only take 10 min. I won't touch such a game with a 100 feet pole.
And btw, what is the problem with games entertaining a player for 2 months? That is 8 times the times a SP game (usuall about a week) will last. Nothing wrong with being entertained for 2 months and then moving on.
Great for single player games, but MMORPG's are (or perhaps were) designed to bring in money over time, many years in fact. Maybe this is the new fate of MMO's to be quick hit games like single player ones to be 'one and done'd'
But as for the 10 minute waits you decry, you don't understand their real purpose, its not just to frustrate you, its to encourage you to socialize with the other folks waiting with you, because that's what MMORPG's are really all about, socialization.
I recall playing my first MMO (Lineage 1) and the only way new players could get off the starter island was a 10 minute boat ride. It was there I sat next to another new player and with nothing else to do we started chatting. We are still friends 10 years later.
I played WOW for over 18 monhts with its frantic, no down time game mechanics and I still know exactly....... zero people, while I'm still close friends with people from Lineage 1, DAOC and Lineage 2, but then those games had game mechanics like forced down time, encouraged grouping and the like that formed long term bonds between disparate strangers.
OK, none of this is for you, fine, go live in your solitary world, but for many of us, we want a return to the mechanics that made the early games great.
If i want to just chat, i will go on MSN. MMORPGs are NOT chat rooms. They are there for you to GROUP with people (PvE), or KILL them (PvP). Plus you can always play with people you already know.
People who need 10min boat rides to make friends have problems. I have plenty of friends in WOW (and have toons in 3 guilds). There is a reason why these kind of horrible down-time is eliminated from modern games. If you want, you can ALWAYS stop playing and chat. Forcing people to do that is just SILLY.
And apparently, with the popuarity of the new dungeon finder system in WOW, MOST people like to DO things in MMORPGs as opposed to sit around on boats and forced to do NOTHING. The "many of you" are not as many as you might think. Otherwise, SWG/EQ and those games with horrendous down-time will not be eclipsed by WOW by a factor of 20.
If i want to just chat, i will go on MSN. MMORPGs are NOT chat rooms. They are there for you to GROUP with people (PvE), or KILL them (PvP). Plus you can always play with people you already know.
People who need 10min boat rides to make friends have problems. I have plenty of friends in WOW (and have toons in 3 guilds). There is a reason why these kind of horrible down-time is eliminated from modern games. If you want, you can ALWAYS stop playing and chat. Forcing people to do that is just SILLY.
And apparently, with the popuarity of the new dungeon finder system in WOW, MOST people like to DO things in MMORPGs as opposed to sit around on boats and forced to do NOTHING. The "many of you" are not as many as you might think. Otherwise, SWG/EQ and those games with horrendous down-time will not be eclipsed by WOW by a factor of 20.
Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
Believe me with todays mmo gamers and thats about 90% will not play a game where they have to fight over same bosses with others you will have wholeday long crying kids(adults even) and ask devs to protect them from stealing there boss lol.
Thats why almost all mmo's today have private instance, these days players dont have mentelity anymore to realy fight for something and afterwards saying ok nextime we win and go on, whole community have chance after WoW.
The reason for instancing is cost reduction. Do your homework.
The reason for instanced dungeons is BETTER GAMEPLAY!!! FACT! There is NOTHING in a an EQ or DAOC that comes close to what occurs in dungeons in WOW. If you haven't personally witnesses all of it. Go look at some videos. EQ and DAOC was all/mostly tank and spank. Not so in WOW. Instanced dungeons allow for much more varied, scripted and dynamic gameplay and bosses. You just can't do that in an open world dungeons where other player can just join in any time. The scrips would all fall apart. Thats why those old bosses were all tank and spank. Cost reduction has nothing to do with it. Its about creating a better dungeon experience, since I don't know whats all that immersive about an amazing dungeon packed with people camping spawns all day long and chatting. Shared dungeons like in WAR worked out well, but you need instancing. No one will go back to the old EQ/DAOC way of doing things. Its just not fun.
Instanced outdoor areas on the other hand is another story. Even with the best servers in the world, when enough players get in one spot the game is unplayable. You have to find ways to split them up and instancing is the only way, OR insane travel times to keep people separated as much as possible. I personally don't like the AOC, DDO, way of world structure. Too phoney. But certain types of dungeons need to be instanced in order to expand & advance gameplay. Other players kill stealing isn't dynamic. Its just annoying and pointless and NOT fun once you get over the initial cool factor of knowing you screwed up someone's day.
Your so called "better gameplay" is your subjective opinion regarding certain design decisions and game mechanics.
Subjective.
Nowadays, because of these so called "better gameplay" people have no freedom, only linearity.
Because these so called "better gameplay" games focus on combat. Everyone has to follow the developers scripted path.
"Everyone is a hero mechanics."
To me, "better gameplay" was when there was great rewards achievable only by a few. And why a few? Because only a few were skilled enough, only a few would spend the required time and effort, only a few were inteligent enough, only a few were organized enough. There was the time when players behind the characters mattered. Nowadays, they dont.
That was the "better gameplay". In fact, the "GOLDEN ERA OF THE GAMEPLAY" was when individual traits of players mattered. Nowadays, in games, every player is like a generic industrialized product, another prisoner wearing an orange suit, in shackles.
Nowadays, because of your "better gameplay" everyone is deemed equal, "fair and balanced", little or no effort, and when a certain effort is needed, its effort and rewards are limited by caps.
And no sir, that was just the excuse game companies used to introduce instancing and all its economic advantages while still benefitting from the marketing slogan of "MMORPG". They didnt changed it to please the players. And if you insist, search for the history of how Guild Wars came to be. "Free" at the cost of "Instancing". It has nothing to do with "Oh, it took me 3 days competing for a boss that rarely drops an item I need" People love this. Gaming psychology.
Sure .. "better gameplay" is subjective. One man's fun is another man's boredom. However, if MILLIONS of people SUBJECTIVELY think linear combat-based gameplay is fun, can't you blame developers to meet that demand?
If YOUR subjective "fun gameplay" has a small audience .. then too bad for you.
I dont think the market place (like most market places) provide enough well advertised variety to actually make that statement.
I think the large population would love an MMO game that doesnt involve having to kill something just becuase it doesnt exist in the market place doesnt mean people do not want it.
Kind of like real news.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The only games to try to make a virtual world since then is Vanguard (they made an AMAZING world) and Darkfall.
Hopefully we'll see more some day before the WoW/Farmvile/SWTOR mini game linear instanced trifecta kills the market completely.
You are delusional if you think these games will "kill" the market. In fact, WOW takes OVER the market. THe market GREW thanks to Blizzard's insight of how to make a fun game.
The market has been dead, for several years. Those 3 games will just take the last life from it, the last bit its holding onto. WoW is not the same type of MMORPG (hardly even massive) that many of us veterans fell in love with, so the MMORPG market we know, is dead. The MMORPG market the new kids know, isn't really an MMORPG market. More ORPG. The new genre, whatever it is, will have the same name, but will not be the same kind of games.
Believe me with todays mmo gamers and thats about 90% will not play a game where they have to fight over same bosses with others you will have wholeday long crying kids(adults even) and ask devs to protect them from stealing there boss lol.
Thats why almost all mmo's today have private instance, these days players dont have mentelity anymore to realy fight for something and afterwards saying ok nextime we win and go on, whole community have chance after WoW.
The reason for instancing is cost reduction. Do your homework.
The reason for instanced dungeons is BETTER GAMEPLAY!!! FACT! There is NOTHING in a an EQ or DAOC that comes close to what occurs in dungeons in WOW. If you haven't personally witnesses all of it. Go look at some videos. EQ and DAOC was all/mostly tank and spank. Not so in WOW. Instanced dungeons allow for much more varied, scripted and dynamic gameplay and bosses. You just can't do that in an open world dungeons where other player can just join in any time. The scrips would all fall apart. Thats why those old bosses were all tank and spank. Cost reduction has nothing to do with it. Its about creating a better dungeon experience, since I don't know whats all that immersive about an amazing dungeon packed with people camping spawns all day long and chatting. Shared dungeons like in WAR worked out well, but you need instancing. No one will go back to the old EQ/DAOC way of doing things. Its just not fun.
Instanced outdoor areas on the other hand is another story. Even with the best servers in the world, when enough players get in one spot the game is unplayable. You have to find ways to split them up and instancing is the only way, OR insane travel times to keep people separated as much as possible. I personally don't like the AOC, DDO, way of world structure. Too phoney. But certain types of dungeons need to be instanced in order to expand & advance gameplay. Other players kill stealing isn't dynamic. Its just annoying and pointless and NOT fun once you get over the initial cool factor of knowing you screwed up someone's day.
First off... the bosses in DAoC were all tank and spank? Take the best WoW raiders around, send them to Caer Sidi, or the Trials of Atlantis, then watch as they crash and burn. Can't do good raid encounters without instancing? BS I say.
As for instanced outdoor areas, if a game from 2001 can handle 600-800 people in COMBAT against eachother, I think its pathetic that new games can't even handle 100. Instances are NOT the only way to do ANYTHING, they are simply the easiest/laziest way. And most MMO companies are LAZY these days, just pumping out rehashed quick money grab ideas instead of building virtual worlds.
The only games to try to make a virtual world since then is Vanguard (they made an AMAZING world) and Darkfall.
Hopefully we'll see more some day before the WoW/Farmvile/SWTOR mini game linear instanced trifecta kills the market completely.
You are delusional if you think these games will "kill" the market. In fact, WOW takes OVER the market. THe market GREW thanks to Blizzard's insight of how to make a fun game.
The market has been dead, for several years. Those 3 games will just take the last life from it, the last bit its holding onto. WoW is not the same type of MMORPG (hardly even massive) that many of us veterans fell in love with, so the MMORPG market we know, is dead. The MMORPG market the new kids know, isn't really an MMORPG market. More ORPG. The new genre, whatever it is, will have the same name, but will not be the same kind of games.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
In fact, it has changed and GREW (more people now than before).
If you don't like the changes, it is your problem, not the market's.
Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
Downtime is easy. You stop playing and go check your mail. It doesn't have to be built into the game, you just have to have the self-control to go do something else.
Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
Downtime is easy. You stop playing and go check your mail. It doesn't have to be built into the game, you just have to have the self-control to go do something else.
Priceless. He admits he wants a mmorpg with in-game mechanisms that prevent people from playing the game for a set amount of time. Call me crazy, but when I play a game i like to actually play it. The whole time, not just when the game lets me.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
In fact, it has changed and GREW (more people now than before).
If you don't like the changes, it is your problem, not the market's.
Precisely. With more than 11 million people in the market, it's far from dead, it's more vibrant and alive than it's ever been. The problem a lot of these "old-timers" are having is that, at one point in time, they were the group that was being catered to. Now they're not. They want the market to go back to kissing their butts but that won't happen because there just aren't enough of them and they don't like that. So they spend all their time telling us how bad the market is right now.
I'm sure the developers are laughing all the way to the bank.
Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
Downtime is easy. You stop playing and go check your mail. It doesn't have to be built into the game, you just have to have the self-control to go do something else.
Priceless. He admits he wants a mmorpg with in-game mechanisms that prevent people from playing the game for a set amount of time. Call me crazy, but when I play a game i like to actually play it. The whole time, not just when the game lets me.
Downtimes are not designed to prevent you from playing the game, socializing with your in-game peers is part of the game, one of the most important parts in my book and good game mechanics provide time to do it. The intent was never to give you a chance to jump out and hit facebook for a bit while you wait. (though some of those 20 minute horse rides in DAOC were a great time to hit the head, grab a snack and read a bit before arrival.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
Downtime is easy. You stop playing and go check your mail. It doesn't have to be built into the game, you just have to have the self-control to go do something else.
Priceless. He admits he wants a mmorpg with in-game mechanisms that prevent people from playing the game for a set amount of time. Call me crazy, but when I play a game i like to actually play it. The whole time, not just when the game lets me.
Downtimes are not designed to prevent you from playing the game, socializing with your in-game peers is part of the game, one of the most important parts in my book and good game mechanics provide time to do it. The intent was never to give you a chance to jump out and hit facebook for a bit while you wait. (though some of those 20 minute horse rides in DAOC were a great time to hit the head, grab a snack and read a bit before arrival.)
Im cool with that. I enjoy long jumps in EVE (gives time to check market, skills, etc), i enjoy running everywhere in lotro (lvl47 and still havent bought a mount) because middle earth is great to look at, and many times I come across someone in need of help and it feels great to be the unforseen saviour. To me thats part of the game and I enjoy it. What I dont like is stopping for 5 minutes after each fight to regen, or waiting 20 minutes for a boat. Those are poor mechanics.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
The only games to try to make a virtual world since then is Vanguard (they made an AMAZING world) and Darkfall.
Hopefully we'll see more some day before the WoW/Farmvile/SWTOR mini game linear instanced trifecta kills the market completely.
You are delusional if you think these games will "kill" the market. In fact, WOW takes OVER the market. THe market GREW thanks to Blizzard's insight of how to make a fun game.
The market has been dead, for several years. Those 3 games will just take the last life from it, the last bit its holding onto. WoW is not the same type of MMORPG (hardly even massive) that many of us veterans fell in love with, so the MMORPG market we know, is dead. The MMORPG market the new kids know, isn't really an MMORPG market. More ORPG. The new genre, whatever it is, will have the same name, but will not be the same kind of games.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
If a bunch of burger restaurants start selling salad and discontinue burgers, because its more popular than burgers, and they keep the same store names, and keep calling their salad shops, burger joints, then we can accurately say that the Burger Industry is dead. You may say "no, its just changed, its still a burger industry!" then why don't they sell burgers anymore? No.
The MMORPG industry, is dead. There is so little innovation, so little advancement compared to the growth from 1999-2004, and even the type of games they make are steadily working backwards.
It's dead.
You might like the new market, but its not the same one, so don't call it the same.
If a bunch of burger restaurants start selling salad and discontinue burgers, because its more popular than burgers, and they keep the same store names, and keep calling their salad shops, burger joints, then we can accurately say that the Burger Industry is dead. You may say "no, its just changed, its still a burger industry!" then why don't they sell burgers anymore? No.
The MMORPG industry, is dead. There is so little innovation, so little advancement compared to the growth from 1999-2004, and even the type of games they make are steadily working backwards.
It's dead.
You might like the new market, but its not the same one, so don't call it the same.
People will call it whatever they want and theres nothing you can do about it.
Also, are we still doing fast food analogies? Really?
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
In fact, it has changed and GREW (more people now than before).
If you don't like the changes, it is your problem, not the market's.
Precisely. With more than 11 million people in the market, it's far from dead, it's more vibrant and alive than it's ever been. The problem a lot of these "old-timers" are having is that, at one point in time, they were the group that was being catered to. Now they're not. They want the market to go back to kissing their butts but that won't happen because there just aren't enough of them and they don't like that. So they spend all their time telling us how bad the market is right now.
I'm sure the developers are laughing all the way to the bank.
....wow, you realize you sound like a spoiled little brat, right kid?
Call me back in 5 years when your favorite games are no longer being made, and everything you like about them is gone, and everyone else is saying "things are better now, because its more popular, jeez, get with the times, whats wrong with you. Besides, its all still there, more alive than ever, more than 30 million people in the market! Now excuse me, I have a 40 dollar flying mount to buy, and crops to water on facebook."
The only games to try to make a virtual world since then is Vanguard (they made an AMAZING world) and Darkfall.
Hopefully we'll see more some day before the WoW/Farmvile/SWTOR mini game linear instanced trifecta kills the market completely.
You are delusional if you think these games will "kill" the market. In fact, WOW takes OVER the market. THe market GREW thanks to Blizzard's insight of how to make a fun game.
The market has been dead, for several years. Those 3 games will just take the last life from it, the last bit its holding onto. WoW is not the same type of MMORPG (hardly even massive) that many of us veterans fell in love with, so the MMORPG market we know, is dead. The MMORPG market the new kids know, isn't really an MMORPG market. More ORPG. The new genre, whatever it is, will have the same name, but will not be the same kind of games.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
In fact, it has changed and GREW (more people now than before).
If you don't like the changes, it is your problem, not the market's.
1. Again, the market place does NOT contain options but rather a control of options.
2. The arguement of 'if you dont like it make it yourself' is retarded and really needs to stop being applied in all cases. No, I am not starting my own news network because I think all news channels are not covering good news, sorry its a stupid arguement.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
In fact, it has changed and GREW (more people now than before).
If you don't like the changes, it is your problem, not the market's.
Precisely. With more than 11 million people in the market, it's far from dead, it's more vibrant and alive than it's ever been. The problem a lot of these "old-timers" are having is that, at one point in time, they were the group that was being catered to. Now they're not. They want the market to go back to kissing their butts but that won't happen because there just aren't enough of them and they don't like that. So they spend all their time telling us how bad the market is right now.
I'm sure the developers are laughing all the way to the bank.
....wow, you realize you sound like a spoiled little brat, right kid?
Call me back in 5 years when your favorite games are no longer being made, and everything you like about them is gone, and everyone else is saying "things are better now, because its more popular, jeez, get with the times, whats wrong with you. Besides, its all still there, more alive than ever, more than 30 million people in the market! Now excuse me, I have a 40 dollar flying mount to buy, and crops to water on facebook."
Well, they dont really make adventure games like simon the sorcerer and grim fandango anymore, which were my favourite games. Instead all we get are assassin's creed and bullshit like it. But you never saw me complain here did you?
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
If a bunch of burger restaurants start selling salad and discontinue burgers, because its more popular than burgers, and they keep the same store names, and keep calling their salad shops, burger joints, then we can accurately say that the Burger Industry is dead. You may say "no, its just changed, its still a burger industry!" then why don't they sell burgers anymore? No.
The MMORPG industry, is dead. There is so little innovation, so little advancement compared to the growth from 1999-2004, and even the type of games they make are steadily working backwards.
It's dead.
You might like the new market, but its not the same one, so don't call it the same.
People will call it whatever they want and theres nothing you can do about it.
Also, are we still doing fast food analogies? Really?
We're going to keep doing them until they stop being accurate and applicable.
Can you blame vets for being upset? It was their money that made most of these companies wealthy enough to churn out WoW clones, and now no companies are making games for them anymore. I don't see how a deep game would be bad for anyone, even the people that like modern day "MMOs". I don't see how innovation is a bad thing either.
GO ahead and list the big advances in MMO tech and gameplay thats happened since 2005, try it.
Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
Downtime is easy. You stop playing and go check your mail. It doesn't have to be built into the game, you just have to have the self-control to go do something else.
Priceless. He admits he wants a mmorpg with in-game mechanisms that prevent people from playing the game for a set amount of time. Call me crazy, but when I play a game i like to actually play it. The whole time, not just when the game lets me.
Downtimes are not designed to prevent you from playing the game, socializing with your in-game peers is part of the game, one of the most important parts in my book and good game mechanics provide time to do it. The intent was never to give you a chance to jump out and hit facebook for a bit while you wait. (though some of those 20 minute horse rides in DAOC were a great time to hit the head, grab a snack and read a bit before arrival.)
Im cool with that. I enjoy long jumps in EVE (gives time to check market, skills, etc), i enjoy running everywhere in lotro (lvl47 and still havent bought a mount) because middle earth is great to look at, and many times I come across someone in need of help and it feels great to be the unforseen saviour. To me thats part of the game and I enjoy it. What I dont like is stopping for 5 minutes after each fight to regen, or waiting 20 minutes for a boat. Those are poor mechanics.
Yet both of those mechanics serve a useful purpose. I used to spend those 5 minutes of downtime between fights (was usually more like 2 or 3) chatting with the people I was grouped with and made some great friends while we waited. But there was a time I ran 8 mans and to maximize our cooldowns we'd fight to the death then sit for 30 minutes waiting for them to all come back up and I really bonded with that group of folks as we figured out our next battle plan.
Same with the boats. In Lineage 1 while still a noob I took my first 10 minute boat ride to the mainland and happened to chat with a person 'stuck' with me and 10 years later, we're still online friends. I actually recruited many of my entire clan on that boat later on and we had great times together adventuring in the outside world.
Now, if you are a solo player, with no interest in meeting other people than I'll agree, these two mechanics are horrid and I understand why you don't want them. But from where I sit I'd love to find more games with these sorts of "features" but realize of course that I am in the minority.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Good luck...if I felt the same way you do I would have moved on a long time ago since hardly anything in the near future looks to be going the Vanguard/Darkfall direction. sorry....
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The fast food and pop mysic analogy is old and doesn't fit. It never has. You know why? Fast food is generally based on quality fast food at a low price. More people eat it because it is convienent. So yes , because it is popular doesn't make it better than great food at your local restaraunt. However with WoW it is an mmorpg just like any other mmorpg, people can play it or they can play anythign else they like for less! That's right, they can play all theose other games for the same price or less! Hell, throw in the MT store that WoW has now, and WoW could be absurdly more expensive than other mmorpg's out there. So why do they play it? You say it's cause they are sheep, I call BS! For the most part people play it because it is the best alternative out there.
Is it the best mmorpg on the market? That would be subjective but it sure isn't what you make it out to be. Would I prefer an awesome virtual world? I sure would, but there isn't much out there that get's it right and is worth wastign my money on. I prefer Wow because it is good not because Im a sheep. Labeling people sheep, fanboy's and drooler's just because you don't like a game is childish and also insulting. WoW is what it is, a great game.
That's why I'm not looking forward to any MMOs in the future.
After Turbine destroyed LotRO and turned it into a WoW clone, after SoE killed off Vanguard before it could even come out, I'm very jaded towards the market. I'm still playing Darkfall, and will continue to check out Vanguard for nostalgic reasons now and again. First time since Star Wars Galaxies was announced that I'm not looking forward to any MMO on the horizon. How has the market fallen this bad? Hell, I'd even go for a DAoC remake, but despite having millions of dollars and hundreds of coders, MMO companies can't even slightly reproduce the quality of games made with 30 people
Whether the vast majority of people are geniuses or idiots is irrelevant. The vast majority of people represent the vast majority of money to be made in the MMO industry and thus, are going to get the vast majority of attention, as well they should. I love how you keep insisting that your way is the best way because you say it is.
You're right though. Most people are idiots, including most people who want to play the games you want to play. Just because it's unpopular doesn't mean the people who play it are any more intelligent than anyone else.
Using your reasoning, the only reason the old games are still in existence is because the people playing them are too stupid to move on.
unpopular =/= better.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
But you also have to remember that all those other games launched with issues that just couldn't be ignored by the player base.
I would say that the only other game that launched with a very promising launch was Aion. Problem is that the players who were attracted to it (a good many) came from wow. They then made comparisons and felt the game didn't have as much content, felt it was too grindy, crafting had luck to it and cost money, etc and went back to wow.
Now, in a vacuum when only comparing wow and aion I would have to say "well sure". WoW has been out far longer and has far more content, the levelng seems easier and it seems very user friendly in that you can discover the game without having to partake or be subjected to pvp.
But when really looking at "korean grind games", Aion is so completely far from that model that one would laugh if you put it in the same breath as Lineage 2 or Archlord for example.
So sure, they westernized it but not enough for players used to games like WoW.
But having experienced the good launches of LOTRO and Aion I do have to say that games like AoC and Warhammer did not fare as well. Vanguard as well.
So what's happending is that developers are still looking at WoW and saying "well, those other games had issues but if we can get those issues right then we can succeed".
My thought is that the things they need to get right are things like polish and game play that makes sense throughout the leveling to cap.
But when I logged into Warhammer at launch and my cape is appearing (I turned it off) every time I zone or the enemy AI is wonky it doesn't lend itself to the feeling of a great product. Conan felt equally as cheap. Boty games felt rickety. Add to that AoC's 1-20 experience of tortage which sets players up for a certain game experience only for them to then get out into the real world and have npc's that don't have voice acting, many fetch/kill quests, etc and it's as if the players were given a bait and switch.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You are delusional if you think these games will "kill" the market. In fact, WOW takes OVER the market. THe market GREW thanks to Blizzard's insight of how to make a fun game.
Sure .. "better gameplay" is subjective. One man's fun is another man's boredom. However, if MILLIONS of people SUBJECTIVELY think linear combat-based gameplay is fun, can't you blame developers to meet that demand?
If YOUR subjective "fun gameplay" has a small audience .. then too bad for you.
If i want to just chat, i will go on MSN. MMORPGs are NOT chat rooms. They are there for you to GROUP with people (PvE), or KILL them (PvP). Plus you can always play with people you already know.
People who need 10min boat rides to make friends have problems. I have plenty of friends in WOW (and have toons in 3 guilds). There is a reason why these kind of horrible down-time is eliminated from modern games. If you want, you can ALWAYS stop playing and chat. Forcing people to do that is just SILLY.
And apparently, with the popuarity of the new dungeon finder system in WOW, MOST people like to DO things in MMORPGs as opposed to sit around on boats and forced to do NOTHING. The "many of you" are not as many as you might think. Otherwise, SWG/EQ and those games with horrendous down-time will not be eclipsed by WOW by a factor of 20.
Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
I dont think the market place (like most market places) provide enough well advertised variety to actually make that statement.
I think the large population would love an MMO game that doesnt involve having to kill something just becuase it doesnt exist in the market place doesnt mean people do not want it.
Kind of like real news.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The market has been dead, for several years. Those 3 games will just take the last life from it, the last bit its holding onto. WoW is not the same type of MMORPG (hardly even massive) that many of us veterans fell in love with, so the MMORPG market we know, is dead. The MMORPG market the new kids know, isn't really an MMORPG market. More ORPG. The new genre, whatever it is, will have the same name, but will not be the same kind of games.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
In fact, it has changed and GREW (more people now than before).
If you don't like the changes, it is your problem, not the market's.
Downtime is easy. You stop playing and go check your mail. It doesn't have to be built into the game, you just have to have the self-control to go do something else.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Priceless. He admits he wants a mmorpg with in-game mechanisms that prevent people from playing the game for a set amount of time. Call me crazy, but when I play a game i like to actually play it. The whole time, not just when the game lets me.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Precisely. With more than 11 million people in the market, it's far from dead, it's more vibrant and alive than it's ever been. The problem a lot of these "old-timers" are having is that, at one point in time, they were the group that was being catered to. Now they're not. They want the market to go back to kissing their butts but that won't happen because there just aren't enough of them and they don't like that. So they spend all their time telling us how bad the market is right now.
I'm sure the developers are laughing all the way to the bank.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Downtimes are not designed to prevent you from playing the game, socializing with your in-game peers is part of the game, one of the most important parts in my book and good game mechanics provide time to do it. The intent was never to give you a chance to jump out and hit facebook for a bit while you wait. (though some of those 20 minute horse rides in DAOC were a great time to hit the head, grab a snack and read a bit before arrival.)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Im cool with that. I enjoy long jumps in EVE (gives time to check market, skills, etc), i enjoy running everywhere in lotro (lvl47 and still havent bought a mount) because middle earth is great to look at, and many times I come across someone in need of help and it feels great to be the unforseen saviour. To me thats part of the game and I enjoy it. What I dont like is stopping for 5 minutes after each fight to regen, or waiting 20 minutes for a boat. Those are poor mechanics.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
If a bunch of burger restaurants start selling salad and discontinue burgers, because its more popular than burgers, and they keep the same store names, and keep calling their salad shops, burger joints, then we can accurately say that the Burger Industry is dead. You may say "no, its just changed, its still a burger industry!" then why don't they sell burgers anymore? No.
The MMORPG industry, is dead. There is so little innovation, so little advancement compared to the growth from 1999-2004, and even the type of games they make are steadily working backwards.
It's dead.
You might like the new market, but its not the same one, so don't call it the same.
People will call it whatever they want and theres nothing you can do about it.
Also, are we still doing fast food analogies? Really?
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
....wow, you realize you sound like a spoiled little brat, right kid?
Call me back in 5 years when your favorite games are no longer being made, and everything you like about them is gone, and everyone else is saying "things are better now, because its more popular, jeez, get with the times, whats wrong with you. Besides, its all still there, more alive than ever, more than 30 million people in the market! Now excuse me, I have a 40 dollar flying mount to buy, and crops to water on facebook."
1. Again, the market place does NOT contain options but rather a control of options.
2. The arguement of 'if you dont like it make it yourself' is retarded and really needs to stop being applied in all cases. No, I am not starting my own news network because I think all news channels are not covering good news, sorry its a stupid arguement.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Well, they dont really make adventure games like simon the sorcerer and grim fandango anymore, which were my favourite games. Instead all we get are assassin's creed and bullshit like it. But you never saw me complain here did you?
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
We're going to keep doing them until they stop being accurate and applicable.
Can you blame vets for being upset? It was their money that made most of these companies wealthy enough to churn out WoW clones, and now no companies are making games for them anymore. I don't see how a deep game would be bad for anyone, even the people that like modern day "MMOs". I don't see how innovation is a bad thing either.
GO ahead and list the big advances in MMO tech and gameplay thats happened since 2005, try it.
Yet both of those mechanics serve a useful purpose. I used to spend those 5 minutes of downtime between fights (was usually more like 2 or 3) chatting with the people I was grouped with and made some great friends while we waited. But there was a time I ran 8 mans and to maximize our cooldowns we'd fight to the death then sit for 30 minutes waiting for them to all come back up and I really bonded with that group of folks as we figured out our next battle plan.
Same with the boats. In Lineage 1 while still a noob I took my first 10 minute boat ride to the mainland and happened to chat with a person 'stuck' with me and 10 years later, we're still online friends. I actually recruited many of my entire clan on that boat later on and we had great times together adventuring in the outside world.
Now, if you are a solo player, with no interest in meeting other people than I'll agree, these two mechanics are horrid and I understand why you don't want them. But from where I sit I'd love to find more games with these sorts of "features" but realize of course that I am in the minority.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon