Originally posted by FreddyNoNose Originally posted by raystantz
Originally posted by KilorTheMeek
Originally posted by raystantz Either step away from MMO's all together, or go find one of these great games to play in the interim: Darkfall
So... step away from a quest-grind and move to one of the biggest grindfests on earth? Either that or afk-swim for months on end? Yeah... sounds like a HOOT! No, your missing the point, and following what everyone else does.
And yet you are here looking for people to follow you. Oh the irony.
So the morale is, sure, quests may be easy, even pleasant, they introduce you to the game lore, and take you fast to level-cap, so you can get into raiding to get the shiny objects you crave so much like the salivating dogs that you are.
But they hand-hold you like a child, and that is NEVER acceptable.
Smart persons need challenges
So we either wait for a MMO that has challenging difficult quests or we play a sandbox, that will simply let you find your own way into the world
Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.
They will never go away because that's what these games are all about. Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP.
In EQ players actually had to look for quests since there were no giant arrows pointing the quest givers out. Those who were too lazy, or just didn't want to search, found a camp and farmed mobs all day.
To me.....that is a grind and that goes against what these games are.
I have a better idea....how about we get rid of XP for killing mobs and earn XP only for crafting items and for the first time your PC completes a quest and visits an area. No more grinding mobs and no more grinding quests. Or ,better yet, do it the Oblivion way. Experience is gained only by using your skills.
So the morale is, sure, quests may be easy, even pleasant, they introduce you to the game lore, and take you fast to level-cap, so you can get into raiding to get the shiny objects you crave so much like the salivating dogs that you are.
But they hand-hold you like a child, and that is NEVER acceptable.
Smart persons need challenges
So we either wait for a MMO that has challenging difficult quests or we play a sandbox, that will simply let you find your own way into the world
end of the (collect 10 rats') tail.
I think you mean the moral of the story not the morale and who exactly are the salivating dogs you speak of?
I don't think that what a person seeks when playing a game says anything of their intelligence just there likes and dislikes.
I've played and been challenged by theme park mmo's and have never raided i them so I've found some instances to be challenging at times, as you seem to suggest that would make me dumb? I don't think what kind of games you like to play or how you like to play them says anything of a persons intelligence and wonder what it is you lack that you feel the need to imply it.
I would also add though there is really nothing wrong with the title of the post, if what bothers you about mmo's is quest based mmo's then by all means you should not play them, I don't care for pvp so I have never bought a game that considered itelf pvp centric its a no brainer to me. And I actually agree if you know a game is going to be a quest based themepark and you don't like those types of games, why try it only to bash it later for what you knew it would be?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
The man said you can RP in WoW and you have no limitations on that
Which is entirely ridiculous since you can't drop items on the ground(or on a table, or anywhere, that would somehow aid RP) and you can't even attack anyone and talk to people enemy faction, thus completing the sheer impossibility to form any RP event.
Actually saying something so blatantly false as "WoW has no RP limitations" shows obvious fanboysm and bias.
Why do you need to drop items on the ground or a table to RP?
All you need to RP is two like minded people and a means to communicate. Anything else is fluff. Nice fluff but fluff.
We can RP in this topic right now if you want. MMORPG doesn't even have items and we can use it for RP.
The man said you can RP in WoW and you have no limitations on that
Which is entirely ridiculous since you can't drop items on the ground(or on a table, or anywhere, that would somehow aid RP) and you can't even attack anyone and talk to people enemy faction, thus completing the sheer impossibility to form any RP event.
Actually saying something so blatantly false as "WoW has no RP limitations" shows obvious fanboysm and bias.
RP is in the mind of the beholder. It just takes a strong and avid imagination.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The man said you can RP in WoW and you have no limitations on that
Which is entirely ridiculous since you can't drop items on the ground(or on a table, or anywhere, that would somehow aid RP) and you can't even attack anyone and talk to people enemy faction, thus completing the sheer impossibility to form any RP event.
Actually saying something so blatantly false as "WoW has no RP limitations" shows obvious fanboysm and bias.
But this is not related to the subject of the 3d... i don't even know why that guy mentioned RP to justify themepark mmos
As for the hunting grounds thing, in WoW you had many ways to level up your fighting skills. I remember there was a gathering just in a clearing downtown Moonglow, mages would summon to train, we fighters would dispatch of them.
And if there even were one good spot only(completely false), not being told by the game itself(with a marker on the map, even, retard-proof) but by a player(requiring a bit of socialization) is already WAY better.
People rp on forums so I don't see how not being able to physically drop props hinders rp in anyway. As a pen and pad roleplayer I find your comment actually quite offensive because I'm fairly certain all those years spent rolling dice and drawing characters and going on grand adventures (usually involving questing) was actually some of the first rp to ever be done, long before anyone ever roleplayed with pixels.
Using your logic every single video game/mmo has roleplaying limitations it's just by what you chose to notice or even consider a problem.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Yes it would seem a rather simple choice,,waste my time running around for a NPC,or enjoy using my spells and aibilities killing stuff.Why else do people gain levels?I would hope it is to gain some cool new spells or abilites?
You can attain EVERYTHING you need from weapons/armor via drops or crafting to play a game,quests offer really nothing,except that time running around from NPC to NPC.
I wonder how many hours people waste in their lives just running from NPC to NPC,nevermind the fact that,the NPC might send you on some errand to run something again,example...return this empty beer mug to the other NPC.How about go visit NPC in another village?There are tons of quests that do nothing for FUN,just a total waste of time,you don't even get to enjoy your players skills/spells,all you do is run across pixels on a screen,sad really.
So there is the choice of pushing your up/down/side arrows or sitting in a camp and actually doing something,killing stuff,seems a rather simple choice ,does it not?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
And yet I consider killing mobs over and over and over again, by spamming the same buttons over and over and over again...a complete waste of time.
It's all a matter of taste. What one player wants is not what everyone wants. Which is why "boycotting" anything in these games is silly. Accept it all.
Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.
That's true, but the way modern MMO's do it it takes away all the challenges in favor of babysitting. Quests are fine, but they don't have to tell you exactly what to do and where to go. that's the WHOLE point of the topic
They will never go away because that's what these games are all about. Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP.
And that's plain false. If you thought about it before just doing(like many others) ctrl-x/paste from what others say, you would remember UO had no such a thing as quests(except for the escorting thing but it's irrelevant).
In EQ players actually had to look for quests since there were no giant arrows pointing the quest givers out. Those who were too lazy, or just didn't want to search, found a camp and farmed mobs all day.
And that was still better than be hand-held to places. Farming endless mob is still more acceptable than being treated like a retard, guided in and out of the maps because you can't decide by yourself where to go and what to do.
To me.....that is a grind and that goes against what these games are.
And to me being led to places and told what to do and how many rats to kill, in a SHAMELESSLY linear way, in a way that sounds SHAMELESSLY of single player solo games is against the meaning of virtuality, persistancy and massivity.
I have a better idea....how about we get rid of XP for killing mobs and earn XP only for crafting items and for the first time your PC completes a quest and visits an area. No more grinding mobs and no more grinding quests. Or ,better yet, do it the Oblivion way. Experience is gained only by using your skills.
Lol, unbelievable. that final sentence is what sandbox already are since 10 years. Everyone knows Oblivion TOOK it from MMO's!!! In a sandbox MMO such as UO you dont farm mob to gain XP, you do it simply to raise your skill in weapon.
This goes to show how twisted is someone's vision of MMOs.
The man said you can RP in WoW and you have no limitations on that
You need to reread what I said.. I didn't say no limitations I said little..
Which is entirely ridiculous since you can't drop items on the ground(or on a table, or anywhere, that would somehow aid RP) and you can't even attack anyone and talk to people enemy faction, thus completing the sheer impossibility to form any RP event. I can understand not being able to talk to an opposing faction as presenting a problem... I'm not sure about why dropping items on the ground 'aids' role playing.
Actually saying something so blatantly false as "WoW has no RP limitations" shows obvious fanboysm and bias.
Haven't played WOW going on 2 years! My post referenced WoW, EQ, LOTRO, etc.. I didn't single out one specific MMORPG. So you would be incorrect regarding labeling me a WoW fanboy and calling me bias.. Bias to story driven games? That might be true, because I after playing UO off and on for a little over 2 years after it's launch I began to despise UO and the sandbox model when I saw that it really was just a hack and slash game with a lot of arrogant role players who thought their shit didn't stink thrown in the mix. People want to say that the 'themepark' MMO community is bad, I guess it depends on your luck and who you get to know... Cause I know damn sure that the RP community has quite a few asshats in it as well.
But this is not related to the subject of the 3d... i don't even know why that guy mentioned RP to justify themepark mmos I didn't mention RP to justify themeparks but to make a point that RPers can RP anywhere that they set their mind to. Also, I wasn't talking to you to begin with. I quoted someone else and was having what I thought was a friendly conversation with him.
As for the hunting grounds thing, in WoW you had many ways to level up your fighting skills. I remember there was a gathering just in a clearing downtown Moonglow, mages would summon to train, we fighters would dispatch of them. UO correct, not WoW? Could you actually get gains off of summoned demons etc? I honestly don't remember.
And if there even were one good spot only(completely false), not being told by the game itself(with a marker on the map, even, retard-proof) but by a player(requiring a bit of socialization) is already WAY better. Never said that there was ONLY one good spot, but that there were spots that players always knew were good to get skill gains, IE Ogre Lords. I didn't say that there was anything wrong with a new player asking for advice on where to hunt next but that in itself it is still a way of being lead to a new area... Now in regard to the map, I know and you know that even Roleplayers used those add ons that showed them where in the world they were, and what direction they needed to go to get to where they were headed... Was it in game? No, but doesn't mean that having it running as a another program is any better.
Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.
They will never go away because that's what these games are all about. Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP. I completely agree! Going back to true roleplaying, the DM told the story and did his/her best to steer the players in the direction of where the quest/storyline should be heading, thus advancing the campaign/module. I believe this is what 'themepark' quest/story driven MMO's attempt to do, but most do it in a way that many sandboxer/RPers don't like, IE pointing you directly to the quest location. I believe this is done because companies know that it's not just one type of gamer playing. It's not just hardcore sandboxers, or casual adults that are playing these games; when I did play WoW a guildmates 9 year old son played the game.
With that said, should the questing be so rigid and always 'handhold',? Maybe not, but it's likely not going away any time soon. How about a compromise, and at the very least there should be an option for players to turn the quest markers off, both with the arrow on the map and with the exclamation point, ring arrow or question mark above NPC's head.
Remove the DM, is removing the story in true Role Play, in that case you are right, you are left with a bunch of players standing around, chatting, hunting mobs, and apparently dropping things on the ground to have true RP immersion. In my opinion this leaves no true story/quest just what's in your head, and some people suck at telling stories, which is why I leave it to the game developer
A lot of the adventure and exploration and all that about older games was the fact that at this time it was still a new aspect, the thought of going online playing with thousands of other players was unique, fresh, interesting. You met people there who became real friends(or enemies), and it was great.
But besides video games the internet itself has evolved, before even logging onto games, people these days check facebook, chat on messengers, send emails, text messages, get on ventrilo etc. That when they log into the game they already have a giant social block sitting at their computer. When they get into the game the fact that there are other people there, is null and void, and frankly isn't that important. The feeling the older games had, is gone, and is never coming back, at least untill we reach the plateau of say virtual reality, where the feeling of newness and freshness has reset.
That's the beginning of the death of the older games. You see, just social things won't carry out a mmorpg anymore. It has to have combat and gameplay to back it up. You complain about it being too fast paced, but really, can we go back to the way it was before? No. Because now that theres better combat options a slow paced dull chat reliant combat system will be the downfall of a game. Even for veterans simply because despite all the talk, still want a game that is fun to play.
Questing is both a bane and a blessing, quests are a good thing because they give you something to do besides kill x rats to level then go kill x bats to level. Looking at older mmos such as EQ and DAoC, sure the social aspect was there, and it was fun. But for the PvE aspect of both, it mainly involved being the role needed, then letting your tank pull mobs to the group while you killed them for a set amount of time, often times people switching out with guildies or friends for a certain amount of time while holding the camp. Then when you finally lost your tank/healer and couldnt bring another in through your group you moved on somewhere else or disbanded. It was a different way to play, but i think nostalgia is clouding just how fun it was. It wasn't that much fun. Sure it was more social throughout the entire game. But I can't even begin to count how many times i was grinding at a camp in a older mmo with my group, in DEAD SILENCE, while the tank constantly pulled stuff to us. Heck it was even worse in EQOA which was the same archetype as the other games, just a console version(it was really fun).
Exploration and adventure, this is really dead. I remember back when i had to do something or look for camps or any of those sorts of things, or going by co-ordinates, it was genuinely fun. But it was also really boring. How much of my time was spent running around to places, looking for things. Now theres gonna be websites with guides on which mobs are the best to grind with which group. Where certain drops are, where npcs spawn that drop rare items. This is really a dead thing. Some games are even just adding it to the UI simply because it's modded in or websites do it so much that offering it as a feature to everyone is just the next step.
Then we get into activities.
Everything in mmorpgs translates into the following
Combat
Chatting
Traveling
Trading
Crafting
Gathering
EVERYTHING you do falls into this. And they all involve enhancing your character to a point where they are stronger or richer or more important.
Sandbox or not, your doing the same things for the same reasons.
Honestly i really REALLY REALLY enjoy forming groups and going into dungeons or group areas for no reason other than to go, for exp, drops, and just for the sake of doing it. It's why i really was interested in vanguard(before i played it) and really enjoyed DAoC. I remember forming a guild in DAoC where we didn't RvR but we just sorta "explored" the game world together. It was fun, because at the time it was still all new and exciting. These were still the new glory days of mmos.
Now when i log into games(even daoc) it doesn't even FEEL the same anymore, not because of the games themselves but because I(and the general community) all have evolved, no longer does seeing a group mob, or a giant monster still effect us the same way it used to. No longer is running into a raid boss still as frightening or exciting.
In the beginning WoW was really similar to EQ, it was a evolution, a lot of people were against it, because it became "easier" but what people failed to grasp, was that, this was the next step. A lot of things that people "liked" about older games were things that were limited by technology or development time, and when wow added in quests or soloability(which older games tried to add later on, when they realized it was a hit) it suddenly became "Easier" not just from difficulty, but because of ease of play, it became less of a hassle to do the same things. And it was a hit.
I'll say right now, that my ideal mmorpg, is not fantasy, is a sandbox, and involves player decision more than anything else. But will it ever exist? no.
Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.
They will never go away because that's what these games are all about. Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP.
In EQ players actually had to look for quests since there were no giant arrows pointing the quest givers out. Those who were too lazy, or just didn't want to search, found a camp and farmed mobs all day.
To me.....that is a grind and that goes against what these games are.
I have a better idea....how about we get rid of XP for killing mobs and earn XP only for crafting items and for the first time your PC completes a quest and visits an area. No more grinding mobs and no more grinding quests. Or ,better yet, do it the Oblivion way. Experience is gained only by using your skills.
There's actually another option here that EQ2 managed quite well in some of its early dungeons. Despite its name, the game was never really quest driven, they were just sort of something in the background that you'd do specifically for the rewards or as was convenient, rarely for the xp.
Make a non-instanced dungeon that's non-linear and deep enough to accomodate multiple groups. Throw in a number of boss encounters all over the place that drop unique loot. Have the dungeon get progressively harder the deeper you go. Put a door/portal/something on the lowest level that allows access to an instanced encounter with an extremely hard boss (think raid tactics here but using only a single group).
There you go, no quests and no camping. People will fight their way through the dungeon and get xp from fighting the mobs on the way so that they can face the boss at the end. It worked brilliantly in EQ2 yet I've never seen its like since.
It's content like this that allows a non-quest based game to work. When someone says to scrap quests they expect there to be other content and mechanics put in place like this to accomodate for it.
Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.
They will never go away because that's what these games are all about. Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP.
In EQ players actually had to look for quests since there were no giant arrows pointing the quest givers out. Those who were too lazy, or just didn't want to search, found a camp and farmed mobs all day.
To me.....that is a grind and that goes against what these games are.
I have a better idea....how about we get rid of XP for killing mobs and earn XP only for crafting items and for the first time your PC completes a quest and visits an area. No more grinding mobs and no more grinding quests. Or ,better yet, do it the Oblivion way. Experience is gained only by using your skills.
There's actually another option here that EQ2 managed quite well in some of its early dungeons. Despite its name, the game was never really quest driven, they were just sort of something in the background that you'd do specifically for the rewards or as was convenient, rarely for the xp.
Make a non-instanced dungeon that's non-linear and deep enough to accomodate multiple groups. Throw in a number of boss encounters all over the place that drop unique loot. Have the dungeon get progressively harder the deeper you go. Put a door/portal/something on the lowest level that allows access to an instanced encounter with an extremely hard boss (think raid tactics here but using only a single group).
There you go, no quests and no camping. People will fight their way through the dungeon and get xp from fighting the mobs on the way so that they can face the boss at the end. It worked brilliantly in EQ2 yet I've never seen its like since.
It's content like this that allows a non-quest based game to work. When someone says to scrap quests they expect there to be other content and mechanics put in place like this to accomodate for it.
Well i lost my response to this so i'll sum it up.
I love eq2 dungeons, they are a blast. But the game itself suffered because the higher level you got, you ended up getting WAY too many buttons to press in a average encounter, and all of them did so little damage but needed to be pressed to form your rotations or keep you going, that it was bogged down. My favorite dungeons in mmos are in eq2. But mainly the 10-30 ones, after that it sorta dulled out and by the time you were 50+ it just felt tedious, i remember playing my necromancer, and casting like 6 dots, 2 temporary pets, commanding my pet to attack, my life drains, creating hearts, nukes, aoes, and repeating it every single pull over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Yes you do the same thing in other games but in eq2 it just felt boring, because it was so dull and there were so many moves there was no impact from any of them except say your bigger long cooldown attacks.
Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.
They will never go away because that's what these games are all about. Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP.
In EQ players actually had to look for quests since there were no giant arrows pointing the quest givers out. Those who were too lazy, or just didn't want to search, found a camp and farmed mobs all day.
To me.....that is a grind and that goes against what these games are.
I have a better idea....how about we get rid of XP for killing mobs and earn XP only for crafting items and for the first time your PC completes a quest and visits an area. No more grinding mobs and no more grinding quests. Or ,better yet, do it the Oblivion way. Experience is gained only by using your skills.
There's actually another option here that EQ2 managed quite well in some of its early dungeons. Despite its name, the game was never really quest driven, they were just sort of something in the background that you'd do specifically for the rewards or as was convenient, rarely for the xp.
Make a non-instanced dungeon that's non-linear and deep enough to accomodate multiple groups. Throw in a number of boss encounters all over the place that drop unique loot. Have the dungeon get progressively harder the deeper you go. Put a door/portal/something on the lowest level that allows access to an instanced encounter with an extremely hard boss (think raid tactics here but using only a single group).
There you go, no quests and no camping. People will fight their way through the dungeon and get xp from fighting the mobs on the way so that they can face the boss at the end. It worked brilliantly in EQ2 yet I've never seen its like since.
It's content like this that allows a non-quest based game to work. When someone says to scrap quests they expect there to be other content and mechanics put in place like this to accomodate for it.
Well i lost my response to this so i'll sum it up.
I love eq2 dungeons, they are a blast. But the game itself suffered because the higher level you got, you ended up getting WAY too many buttons to press in a average encounter, and all of them did so little damage but needed to be pressed to form your rotations or keep you going, that it was bogged down. My favorite dungeons in mmos are in eq2. But mainly the 10-30 ones, after that it sorta dulled out and by the time you were 50+ it just felt tedious, i remember playing my necromancer, and casting like 6 dots, 2 temporary pets, commanding my pet to attack, my life drains, creating hearts, nukes, aoes, and repeating it every single pull over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Yes you do the same thing in other games but in eq2 it just felt boring, because it was so dull and there were so many moves there was no impact from any of them except say your bigger long cooldown attacks.
Hehe I've always had a soft spot for EQ2, I had a necromancer main as well, but I agree that compared to other games skills and spells did comparitively little to the target. The dungeon design though would definately be something I'd like to see used in another MMO. It would show a lot of people that instancing everything really isn't the best/only solution.
You're right though the 10-30 dungeons were the best, primarily Fallen Gate, Ruins of Varsoon and Runnyeye Citadel. I think Solusek's Eye is worth a mention though, it was pretty epic fighting down into the core of the volcano there and passing through three different civilisations of ruins on the way. It made meeting Nagafen feel a lot more epic as well; normally when a quest asks a player to talk to someone it's a pretty simple affair but talking to Nagafen was a real challenge to undergo.
Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.
They will never go away because that's what these games are all about. Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP.
In EQ players actually had to look for quests since there were no giant arrows pointing the quest givers out. Those who were too lazy, or just didn't want to search, found a camp and farmed mobs all day.
To me.....that is a grind and that goes against what these games are.
I have a better idea....how about we get rid of XP for killing mobs and earn XP only for crafting items and for the first time your PC completes a quest and visits an area. No more grinding mobs and no more grinding quests. Or ,better yet, do it the Oblivion way. Experience is gained only by using your skills.
There's actually another option here that EQ2 managed quite well in some of its early dungeons. Despite its name, the game was never really quest driven, they were just sort of something in the background that you'd do specifically for the rewards or as was convenient, rarely for the xp.
Make a non-instanced dungeon that's non-linear and deep enough to accomodate multiple groups. Throw in a number of boss encounters all over the place that drop unique loot. Have the dungeon get progressively harder the deeper you go. Put a door/portal/something on the lowest level that allows access to an instanced encounter with an extremely hard boss (think raid tactics here but using only a single group).
There you go, no quests and no camping. People will fight their way through the dungeon and get xp from fighting the mobs on the way so that they can face the boss at the end. It worked brilliantly in EQ2 yet I've never seen its like since.
It's content like this that allows a non-quest based game to work. When someone says to scrap quests they expect there to be other content and mechanics put in place like this to accomodate for it.
Well i lost my response to this so i'll sum it up.
I love eq2 dungeons, they are a blast. But the game itself suffered because the higher level you got, you ended up getting WAY too many buttons to press in a average encounter, and all of them did so little damage but needed to be pressed to form your rotations or keep you going, that it was bogged down. My favorite dungeons in mmos are in eq2. But mainly the 10-30 ones, after that it sorta dulled out and by the time you were 50+ it just felt tedious, i remember playing my necromancer, and casting like 6 dots, 2 temporary pets, commanding my pet to attack, my life drains, creating hearts, nukes, aoes, and repeating it every single pull over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Yes you do the same thing in other games but in eq2 it just felt boring, because it was so dull and there were so many moves there was no impact from any of them except say your bigger long cooldown attacks.
Hehe I've always had a soft spot for EQ2, I had a necromancer main as well, but I agree that compared to other games skills and spells did comparitively little to the target. The dungeon design though would definately be something I'd like to see used in another MMO. It would show a lot of people that instancing everything really isn't the best/only solution.
You're right though the 10-30 dungeons were the best, primarily Fallen Gate, Ruins of Varsoon and Runnyeye Citadel. I think Solusek's Eye is worth a mention though, it was pretty epic fighting down into the core of the volcano there and passing through three different civilisations of ruins on the way. It made meeting Nagafen feel a lot more epic as well; normally when a quest asks a player to talk to someone it's a pretty simple affair but talking to Nagafen was a real challenge to undergo.
only dungeon I didnt like from 1-50 really were the EF dungeon. every other place were just awesome.....well screaming mace ruined Chazic thule for me. but before that were great fighting down....and as said before love how the instances were in end of dungeons AND all had a purpose other than the hard event inside, for the level.
hated necro in groups meself. loved it solo tho.....there is other classes with more effect from efford tho.
The man said you can RP in WoW and you have no limitations on that
Which is entirely ridiculous since you can't drop items on the ground(or on a table, or anywhere, that would somehow aid RP) and you can't even attack anyone and talk to people enemy faction, thus completing the sheer impossibility to form any RP event.
Actually saying something so blatantly false as "WoW has no RP limitations" shows obvious fanboysm and bias.
Why do you need to drop items on the ground or a table to RP?
All you need to RP is two like minded people and a means to communicate. Anything else is fluff. Nice fluff but fluff.
Yeah and i disagree, man. According to the most brilliant RP creators, RPG is not just talking and talking and talking, that IS fluff, an RPG provides you the tools to roleplay and these tools include means to change and shape your character according to your actions. We can RP anywhere we want but we'll need pen&paper, so it has nothing to do with the game. We're talking about rpG, not pen&paper
The man brought up RP as an exclusive tool WoW has and WoW has to be praised for. And brought it up to make up for the lack of things to DO in-game.
So you're not makin any sense, the whole subject doesn't make any sense.
And yet I consider killing mobs over and over and over again, by spamming the same buttons over and over and over again...a complete waste of time.
It's all a matter of taste. What one player wants is not what everyone wants. Which is why "boycotting" anything in these games is silly. Accept it all.
That's entirely false.
We MUST boycott WoW-clones quests simply because they babysit the player, telling him what to do and where to go.
It's not just taste, it's preferring, with quests, to be treated like a retard who can't make his own goals, who can't decide where to go and when and how, a retard who needs an X on his map for god sake
even tho a GOOD sandbox mmo will NEVER have endless farming(as i said and smart heads chose to ignore it) and instead will provide many ways to do that ONE thing, many other activities beside fighting, and it does NOT have XP or levels so you just raise your skill in a given weapon,
Farming mob will always be more acceptable than being told what to do, because if nothing else, at least you're in control of what you do, you decide your own objectives. And i still can't believe the guy of your themepark kids faction actually "proposed" hey, they should make a MMO like Oblivion, where you don't gain EXP, you just go up in the weapon skill, completely ignoring that that's what happens in sandbox MMOs since they were created. This goes to show the absolute ignorance of some MMO players. And it also goes to show why such a stupid arcade-shooter like Oblivion was praised as a brillaint innovative game, ignoring a little game called Ultima7(among the others)
Don't think i don't understand what you mean. You see(in your simple minds) a character spamming rats in one place then moving on to another spot of rats. And then you see the quest player, running merrily from NPC to NPC, reading stories(when we all know you skip them), getting(addictive like heroine) continuous gear pieces to get you all aroused and thrilled with your advancement and improvement(which is the definition of addiction).
Seeing it like this you easily choose questing. What you folks refuse to understand is that it's not like this at all. This is the difference between WoW and DAOC, DAOC didn't have quests(they were like 5 overall maybe, and still farmy) but it wasn't a sandbox MMO.
In a sandbox MMO you see the world in your hands, you interact with the springs that make it move, it's like watching a clockwork. In such a game whatever you do doesn't feel repetitive, it just feels coherent with the world. When you kill 20 rats, you're not farming, you're hunting, it makes sense, it's realistic, you don't complain because what you do you would do in real-life, because sandbox are supposed to be SIMULATIONS. This is basically what you don't understand unless you play such a game.
But it doesn't have to be so complicated, either. I repeat for the last time, i will still choose farming mob over being tossed from NPC to NPC by a game because i can't accept that, i'm not an animal, even tho i am farming 1000 rats, at least
I know I am probably about to get flamed.. but here goes.
Everyday people here are screaming at how terrible the current MMO offerings are. How they have gone in the wrong direction from what us veterans remember (I agree, they suck now). But, what are we actually doing to change things? Complaining on forums and to the devs doesn't seem to work, because they all simply copy whatever Blizzard does. If you want developers to stop making games like that, give them a reason to change. Half the people complain about this problem are subbed to WoW as we speak, or EQ2, or LOTRO, or any of the other grind and raid games that have come out post WoW. If you want someone to make something different, stop playing those games and show them you don't want anymore games like that.
Go to the account page, and click "CANCEL" in the box that asks why your quitting, put:
"Because I would like to play a game with excitement and adventure where the entire point isn't to get to the level cap as fast as possible and purchase 25.00 flying horses."
Either step away from MMO's all together, or go find one of these great games to play in the interim:
Final Fantasy XI
Asheron's Call
Dark Age of Camelot
Lineage 2
Ultima Online
Darkfall
Everquest
Vanguard
Saga of Ryzom
Anarchy Online
EVE Online
Who is with me?
If you don't like a game, don't play it. Some people actually enjoy grinding quests over and over. WoW is for them. Why do you feel a need to ruin their fun?
Just because a game does not fit your playstyle doesn't mean that it is bad.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
If you don't like a game, don't play it. Some people actually enjoy grinding quests over and over. WoW is for them. Why do you feel a need to ruin their fun?
Just because a game does not fit your playstyle doesn't mean that it is bad.
Why do you feel a need to ruin their fun? Many people just arent happy until the other players who are enjoying themselves a) know that they are unhappy or b) want those people who are enjoying themselves to be as miserable as them. I just makes too much sense to stop playing something they dont like and move on.
I read the OP and responses up to page 4 and decided that the thread is basically just another one of these:
"The type of game and the game mechanics that other people like, I DON'T like, therefore they are wrong and I am right. I know more about MMORPGs than most people because I've played more of them, and therefore my opinions on them are more educated and therefore....right for everyone."
"No. I'm offended that you call yourself a veteran MMO player, even though I just started with WoW and you've been playing MMOs since BEFORE Ultima Online and maybe before the creation of dirt. You have experienced more of the genre's changing and evolving than I have, and it makes me feel like my opinion is less valid because I haven't experienced as much. (.....Flashbacks of my teenagers explaining why they are as wise as adults....) Fuck you...I don't like that. I like WoW and other themepark games, they are the BESTEST EVAAAR."
"No, you moron, they're not. I don't have to back up that statement with any reasons."
"Yes...yes they are. I don't have to back up that statement with any reasons."
"WoW suxxors....WoW blah blah blah."
"No it does NOT you TAKE THAT BACK, you dumbass old person! WoW is uber leet and takes mad skillz and then at max level, when you get there, after three days....then you can pretend it's a sandbox and imagine that all the stupid dailies don't exist and pretend you haven't seen all the dungeons 1000 times and have so much fun! WoW RUUUULEEEZ....WoW blah blah blah blah blah."
*sigh*
(Wondering why every thread about shitty OR good game mechanics always ends up with so much crap about WoW. I usually buy into it and post my own views about WoW or other games, but this time....I think I'll just pass and take a nap.)
The only sandbox game i played was shadowbane. Calling Eq, ffxi, wow ect a sandbox is a joke because its all a very set path. Yea you can do some stuff like crafting but your path has a very limited amount of branches. Shadowbane you could go crazy with your imagination when designing a character with different runes and such. People had priests that healed but then on the far other end there were duel sword weilding priests that could spam stuns like nobodies business, there were warlocks who casted spells, warlocks who wore heavy plate armor, or warlocks who wore cloth armor and hit like trucks with swords. You could build a city, destroy a city, farm a rune, build up your shops, and my personal favorite, no AH.
The addition of the AH In eq was one of my least favorite things. My friend and I were wheelers and dealers of the EQ world where we could have a stack of bone chips one day then a few days later be trying to move high end gear. That was a great part of EQ and shadowbane, getting an item then spending the time to find a buyer as opposed to posting it on an AH at the market acceptable price. We made money because we had a great idea of the essential put call spread of gear and would buy things at great deals then spend days selling the same thing for a huge mark up. The whole system also provided that social aspect where people would gather in their server's respected auction zone and hang out.
Comments
No, your missing the point, and following what everyone else does.
And yet you are here looking for people to follow you. Oh the irony.
Zing.
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So the morale is, sure, quests may be easy, even pleasant, they introduce you to the game lore, and take you fast to level-cap, so you can get into raiding to get the shiny objects you crave so much like the salivating dogs that you are.
But they hand-hold you like a child, and that is NEVER acceptable.
Smart persons need challenges
So we either wait for a MMO that has challenging difficult quests or we play a sandbox, that will simply let you find your own way into the world
end of the (collect 10 rats') tail.
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Quests have always been the staple of Role Playing games....whether they be table-top, single player, or MMORPGs.
They will never go away because that's what these games are all about. Remove the questing and all you're left with is players standing in the same area farming the same mobs over and over again for XP.
In EQ players actually had to look for quests since there were no giant arrows pointing the quest givers out. Those who were too lazy, or just didn't want to search, found a camp and farmed mobs all day.
To me.....that is a grind and that goes against what these games are.
I have a better idea....how about we get rid of XP for killing mobs and earn XP only for crafting items and for the first time your PC completes a quest and visits an area. No more grinding mobs and no more grinding quests. Or ,better yet, do it the Oblivion way. Experience is gained only by using your skills.
I think you mean the moral of the story not the morale and who exactly are the salivating dogs you speak of?
I don't think that what a person seeks when playing a game says anything of their intelligence just there likes and dislikes.
I've played and been challenged by theme park mmo's and have never raided i them so I've found some instances to be challenging at times, as you seem to suggest that would make me dumb? I don't think what kind of games you like to play or how you like to play them says anything of a persons intelligence and wonder what it is you lack that you feel the need to imply it.
I would also add though there is really nothing wrong with the title of the post, if what bothers you about mmo's is quest based mmo's then by all means you should not play them, I don't care for pvp so I have never bought a game that considered itelf pvp centric its a no brainer to me. And I actually agree if you know a game is going to be a quest based themepark and you don't like those types of games, why try it only to bash it later for what you knew it would be?
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Why do you need to drop items on the ground or a table to RP?
All you need to RP is two like minded people and a means to communicate. Anything else is fluff. Nice fluff but fluff.
We can RP in this topic right now if you want. MMORPG doesn't even have items and we can use it for RP.
WoW doesn't have any RP limitations!
LOL!
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
RP is in the mind of the beholder. It just takes a strong and avid imagination.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
People rp on forums so I don't see how not being able to physically drop props hinders rp in anyway. As a pen and pad roleplayer I find your comment actually quite offensive because I'm fairly certain all those years spent rolling dice and drawing characters and going on grand adventures (usually involving questing) was actually some of the first rp to ever be done, long before anyone ever roleplayed with pixels.
Using your logic every single video game/mmo has roleplaying limitations it's just by what you chose to notice or even consider a problem.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Yes it would seem a rather simple choice,,waste my time running around for a NPC,or enjoy using my spells and aibilities killing stuff.Why else do people gain levels?I would hope it is to gain some cool new spells or abilites?
You can attain EVERYTHING you need from weapons/armor via drops or crafting to play a game,quests offer really nothing,except that time running around from NPC to NPC.
I wonder how many hours people waste in their lives just running from NPC to NPC,nevermind the fact that,the NPC might send you on some errand to run something again,example...return this empty beer mug to the other NPC.How about go visit NPC in another village?There are tons of quests that do nothing for FUN,just a total waste of time,you don't even get to enjoy your players skills/spells,all you do is run across pixels on a screen,sad really.
So there is the choice of pushing your up/down/side arrows or sitting in a camp and actually doing something,killing stuff,seems a rather simple choice ,does it not?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
And yet I consider killing mobs over and over and over again, by spamming the same buttons over and over and over again...a complete waste of time.
It's all a matter of taste. What one player wants is not what everyone wants. Which is why "boycotting" anything in these games is silly. Accept it all.
That's true, but the way modern MMO's do it it takes away all the challenges in favor of babysitting. Quests are fine, but they don't have to tell you exactly what to do and where to go. that's the WHOLE point of the topic
And that's plain false. If you thought about it before just doing(like many others) ctrl-x/paste from what others say, you would remember UO had no such a thing as quests(except for the escorting thing but it's irrelevant).
And that was still better than be hand-held to places. Farming endless mob is still more acceptable than being treated like a retard, guided in and out of the maps because you can't decide by yourself where to go and what to do.
And to me being led to places and told what to do and how many rats to kill, in a SHAMELESSLY linear way, in a way that sounds SHAMELESSLY of single player solo games is against the meaning of virtuality, persistancy and massivity.
Lol, unbelievable. that final sentence is what sandbox already are since 10 years. Everyone knows Oblivion TOOK it from MMO's!!! In a sandbox MMO such as UO you dont farm mob to gain XP, you do it simply to raise your skill in weapon.
This goes to show how twisted is someone's vision of MMOs.
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coming into this thread late but my thoughts is this.
Nostalgia. Good? Bad? Fantastic? Awesomerific? no. it's simply nostalgia.
A lot of the adventure and exploration and all that about older games was the fact that at this time it was still a new aspect, the thought of going online playing with thousands of other players was unique, fresh, interesting. You met people there who became real friends(or enemies), and it was great.
But besides video games the internet itself has evolved, before even logging onto games, people these days check facebook, chat on messengers, send emails, text messages, get on ventrilo etc. That when they log into the game they already have a giant social block sitting at their computer. When they get into the game the fact that there are other people there, is null and void, and frankly isn't that important. The feeling the older games had, is gone, and is never coming back, at least untill we reach the plateau of say virtual reality, where the feeling of newness and freshness has reset.
That's the beginning of the death of the older games. You see, just social things won't carry out a mmorpg anymore. It has to have combat and gameplay to back it up. You complain about it being too fast paced, but really, can we go back to the way it was before? No. Because now that theres better combat options a slow paced dull chat reliant combat system will be the downfall of a game. Even for veterans simply because despite all the talk, still want a game that is fun to play.
Questing is both a bane and a blessing, quests are a good thing because they give you something to do besides kill x rats to level then go kill x bats to level. Looking at older mmos such as EQ and DAoC, sure the social aspect was there, and it was fun. But for the PvE aspect of both, it mainly involved being the role needed, then letting your tank pull mobs to the group while you killed them for a set amount of time, often times people switching out with guildies or friends for a certain amount of time while holding the camp. Then when you finally lost your tank/healer and couldnt bring another in through your group you moved on somewhere else or disbanded. It was a different way to play, but i think nostalgia is clouding just how fun it was. It wasn't that much fun. Sure it was more social throughout the entire game. But I can't even begin to count how many times i was grinding at a camp in a older mmo with my group, in DEAD SILENCE, while the tank constantly pulled stuff to us. Heck it was even worse in EQOA which was the same archetype as the other games, just a console version(it was really fun).
Exploration and adventure, this is really dead. I remember back when i had to do something or look for camps or any of those sorts of things, or going by co-ordinates, it was genuinely fun. But it was also really boring. How much of my time was spent running around to places, looking for things. Now theres gonna be websites with guides on which mobs are the best to grind with which group. Where certain drops are, where npcs spawn that drop rare items. This is really a dead thing. Some games are even just adding it to the UI simply because it's modded in or websites do it so much that offering it as a feature to everyone is just the next step.
Then we get into activities.
Everything in mmorpgs translates into the following
Combat
Chatting
Traveling
Trading
Crafting
Gathering
EVERYTHING you do falls into this. And they all involve enhancing your character to a point where they are stronger or richer or more important.
Sandbox or not, your doing the same things for the same reasons.
Honestly i really REALLY REALLY enjoy forming groups and going into dungeons or group areas for no reason other than to go, for exp, drops, and just for the sake of doing it. It's why i really was interested in vanguard(before i played it) and really enjoyed DAoC. I remember forming a guild in DAoC where we didn't RvR but we just sorta "explored" the game world together. It was fun, because at the time it was still all new and exciting. These were still the new glory days of mmos.
Now when i log into games(even daoc) it doesn't even FEEL the same anymore, not because of the games themselves but because I(and the general community) all have evolved, no longer does seeing a group mob, or a giant monster still effect us the same way it used to. No longer is running into a raid boss still as frightening or exciting.
In the beginning WoW was really similar to EQ, it was a evolution, a lot of people were against it, because it became "easier" but what people failed to grasp, was that, this was the next step. A lot of things that people "liked" about older games were things that were limited by technology or development time, and when wow added in quests or soloability(which older games tried to add later on, when they realized it was a hit) it suddenly became "Easier" not just from difficulty, but because of ease of play, it became less of a hassle to do the same things. And it was a hit.
I'll say right now, that my ideal mmorpg, is not fantasy, is a sandbox, and involves player decision more than anything else. But will it ever exist? no.
There's actually another option here that EQ2 managed quite well in some of its early dungeons. Despite its name, the game was never really quest driven, they were just sort of something in the background that you'd do specifically for the rewards or as was convenient, rarely for the xp.
Make a non-instanced dungeon that's non-linear and deep enough to accomodate multiple groups. Throw in a number of boss encounters all over the place that drop unique loot. Have the dungeon get progressively harder the deeper you go. Put a door/portal/something on the lowest level that allows access to an instanced encounter with an extremely hard boss (think raid tactics here but using only a single group).
There you go, no quests and no camping. People will fight their way through the dungeon and get xp from fighting the mobs on the way so that they can face the boss at the end. It worked brilliantly in EQ2 yet I've never seen its like since.
It's content like this that allows a non-quest based game to work. When someone says to scrap quests they expect there to be other content and mechanics put in place like this to accomodate for it.
Well i lost my response to this so i'll sum it up.
I love eq2 dungeons, they are a blast. But the game itself suffered because the higher level you got, you ended up getting WAY too many buttons to press in a average encounter, and all of them did so little damage but needed to be pressed to form your rotations or keep you going, that it was bogged down. My favorite dungeons in mmos are in eq2. But mainly the 10-30 ones, after that it sorta dulled out and by the time you were 50+ it just felt tedious, i remember playing my necromancer, and casting like 6 dots, 2 temporary pets, commanding my pet to attack, my life drains, creating hearts, nukes, aoes, and repeating it every single pull over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Yes you do the same thing in other games but in eq2 it just felt boring, because it was so dull and there were so many moves there was no impact from any of them except say your bigger long cooldown attacks.
Hehe I've always had a soft spot for EQ2, I had a necromancer main as well, but I agree that compared to other games skills and spells did comparitively little to the target. The dungeon design though would definately be something I'd like to see used in another MMO. It would show a lot of people that instancing everything really isn't the best/only solution.
You're right though the 10-30 dungeons were the best, primarily Fallen Gate, Ruins of Varsoon and Runnyeye Citadel. I think Solusek's Eye is worth a mention though, it was pretty epic fighting down into the core of the volcano there and passing through three different civilisations of ruins on the way. It made meeting Nagafen feel a lot more epic as well; normally when a quest asks a player to talk to someone it's a pretty simple affair but talking to Nagafen was a real challenge to undergo.
only dungeon I didnt like from 1-50 really were the EF dungeon. every other place were just awesome.....well screaming mace ruined Chazic thule for me. but before that were great fighting down....and as said before love how the instances were in end of dungeons AND all had a purpose other than the hard event inside, for the level.
hated necro in groups meself. loved it solo tho.....there is other classes with more effect from efford tho.
Yeah and i disagree, man. According to the most brilliant RP creators, RPG is not just talking and talking and talking, that IS fluff, an RPG provides you the tools to roleplay and these tools include means to change and shape your character according to your actions. We can RP anywhere we want but we'll need pen&paper, so it has nothing to do with the game. We're talking about rpG, not pen&paper
The man brought up RP as an exclusive tool WoW has and WoW has to be praised for. And brought it up to make up for the lack of things to DO in-game.
So you're not makin any sense, the whole subject doesn't make any sense.
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That's entirely false.
We MUST boycott WoW-clones quests simply because they babysit the player, telling him what to do and where to go.
It's not just taste, it's preferring, with quests, to be treated like a retard who can't make his own goals, who can't decide where to go and when and how, a retard who needs an X on his map for god sake
even tho a GOOD sandbox mmo will NEVER have endless farming(as i said and smart heads chose to ignore it) and instead will provide many ways to do that ONE thing, many other activities beside fighting, and it does NOT have XP or levels so you just raise your skill in a given weapon,
Farming mob will always be more acceptable than being told what to do, because if nothing else, at least you're in control of what you do, you decide your own objectives. And i still can't believe the guy of your themepark kids faction actually "proposed" hey, they should make a MMO like Oblivion, where you don't gain EXP, you just go up in the weapon skill, completely ignoring that that's what happens in sandbox MMOs since they were created. This goes to show the absolute ignorance of some MMO players. And it also goes to show why such a stupid arcade-shooter like Oblivion was praised as a brillaint innovative game, ignoring a little game called Ultima7(among the others)
Don't think i don't understand what you mean. You see(in your simple minds) a character spamming rats in one place then moving on to another spot of rats. And then you see the quest player, running merrily from NPC to NPC, reading stories(when we all know you skip them), getting(addictive like heroine) continuous gear pieces to get you all aroused and thrilled with your advancement and improvement(which is the definition of addiction).
Seeing it like this you easily choose questing. What you folks refuse to understand is that it's not like this at all. This is the difference between WoW and DAOC, DAOC didn't have quests(they were like 5 overall maybe, and still farmy) but it wasn't a sandbox MMO.
In a sandbox MMO you see the world in your hands, you interact with the springs that make it move, it's like watching a clockwork. In such a game whatever you do doesn't feel repetitive, it just feels coherent with the world. When you kill 20 rats, you're not farming, you're hunting, it makes sense, it's realistic, you don't complain because what you do you would do in real-life, because sandbox are supposed to be SIMULATIONS. This is basically what you don't understand unless you play such a game.
But it doesn't have to be so complicated, either. I repeat for the last time, i will still choose farming mob over being tossed from NPC to NPC by a game because i can't accept that, i'm not an animal, even tho i am farming 1000 rats, at least
IT WAS MY DECISION.
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What?
REALITY CHECK
If you don't like a game, don't play it. Some people actually enjoy grinding quests over and over. WoW is for them. Why do you feel a need to ruin their fun?
Just because a game does not fit your playstyle doesn't mean that it is bad.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Why do you feel a need to ruin their fun? Many people just arent happy until the other players who are enjoying themselves a) know that they are unhappy or b) want those people who are enjoying themselves to be as miserable as them. I just makes too much sense to stop playing something they dont like and move on.
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
Lets ROCK!
yet another anti-WoW thread. I bet most people that play WoW care less about this site, they are playing because they want to do so. QQ more
I read the OP and responses up to page 4 and decided that the thread is basically just another one of these:
"The type of game and the game mechanics that other people like, I DON'T like, therefore they are wrong and I am right. I know more about MMORPGs than most people because I've played more of them, and therefore my opinions on them are more educated and therefore....right for everyone."
"No. I'm offended that you call yourself a veteran MMO player, even though I just started with WoW and you've been playing MMOs since BEFORE Ultima Online and maybe before the creation of dirt. You have experienced more of the genre's changing and evolving than I have, and it makes me feel like my opinion is less valid because I haven't experienced as much. (.....Flashbacks of my teenagers explaining why they are as wise as adults....) Fuck you...I don't like that. I like WoW and other themepark games, they are the BESTEST EVAAAR."
"No, you moron, they're not. I don't have to back up that statement with any reasons."
"Yes...yes they are. I don't have to back up that statement with any reasons."
"WoW suxxors....WoW blah blah blah."
"No it does NOT you TAKE THAT BACK, you dumbass old person! WoW is uber leet and takes mad skillz and then at max level, when you get there, after three days....then you can pretend it's a sandbox and imagine that all the stupid dailies don't exist and pretend you haven't seen all the dungeons 1000 times and have so much fun! WoW RUUUULEEEZ....WoW blah blah blah blah blah."
*sigh*
(Wondering why every thread about shitty OR good game mechanics always ends up with so much crap about WoW. I usually buy into it and post my own views about WoW or other games, but this time....I think I'll just pass and take a nap.)
ZzzZZZzzzzZZZzzzzz.........
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
The only sandbox game i played was shadowbane. Calling Eq, ffxi, wow ect a sandbox is a joke because its all a very set path. Yea you can do some stuff like crafting but your path has a very limited amount of branches. Shadowbane you could go crazy with your imagination when designing a character with different runes and such. People had priests that healed but then on the far other end there were duel sword weilding priests that could spam stuns like nobodies business, there were warlocks who casted spells, warlocks who wore heavy plate armor, or warlocks who wore cloth armor and hit like trucks with swords. You could build a city, destroy a city, farm a rune, build up your shops, and my personal favorite, no AH.
The addition of the AH In eq was one of my least favorite things. My friend and I were wheelers and dealers of the EQ world where we could have a stack of bone chips one day then a few days later be trying to move high end gear. That was a great part of EQ and shadowbane, getting an item then spending the time to find a buyer as opposed to posting it on an AH at the market acceptable price. We made money because we had a great idea of the essential put call spread of gear and would buy things at great deals then spend days selling the same thing for a huge mark up. The whole system also provided that social aspect where people would gather in their server's respected auction zone and hang out.