After playing LOTRO, yes, good game. But I always felt the publishers were holding back a little, like they were waiting to see if money was going to roll in before they committed themselves to more serious big guns like flying mounts (Eagles, I guess, maybe dragons as an epic reward) and were also hemmed in by specific limits because they had to operate with Tolkien's ideas and not something they came up with from scratch like Blizzard did with Warcraft who could do what they wanted, so that was a boundary from the start.
Nice landscape / environment graphics though, not beaten by much else if any.
eagles? dragons?!
Seriously dude, you obviously don't belong in LOTRO if you can willy-nilly butcher the lore that way.
Get back to WoW.
One massive thing missing was flying mounts, which wasn't really featured in the books other than Eagles giving various characters help in the Hobbit and LOTR novels, so they are a possibility. Dragons, maybe, but only after a chain of Epics, and Tolkien loved his dragons albeit not as mounts.
WoW is dead to me. Long gone and buried. Roll on Guild Wars 2.
The eagles wouldn't let people ride them. They'd literally tear the player characters to shreds if we tried to mount them.
There are no true dragons left in the LotR world. Smuag was the last one. The dragons you see in game are drakes and lesser worms. They also have a history of working for Suaron/Morgoth.
We're not using them as mounts end of discussion.
No offense dude, but it's pretty clear you're not hip with the LotR lore, and lore is pretty much what this game has going for it.
I'm sorry but lore is only loosely followed in LOTRO to begin with. Why not have dragons and eagles and crap for flying mounts? You get to face a flippin Balrog and you don't cry foul? The psuedo ring wraiths all over the place don't make your hackles rise a bit? If you had actually read the books, and understood the books, including the Silmarillon and not just watched Peter Jackson's butchery of the story then you wouldn't be so quick to defend the lore of a game that has already been trashed to hell and back.
It's not THAT loose!
I get that they bend a bit but they bend within a somewhat reasonable framework.
There Tolkien references that there might be other balrogs, and there are drakes left.
But having players ride eagles or dragons or whatever is just off.
And the pseudo rignwraiths are essentially what the ring wraiths are donig in between the scenes in the book. It's added but it doesn't fly in the face of what "might" have happened.
I've read the books and though I don't like many things they have done, at this point it's not a complete aberration.
Essentially what you are saying is "well, they have already bent quite a bit... let's just throw it all out".
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Altough the leveling is fun and well built, end-game is lacking. When you get to level 65 and do all the 4 instances that exist at level cap you realize that everything else is just a grind.
So usually people level to 65 and cancel their account. Thats why it isn't as big as it could have been.
My son and I petered out on the game in our early / mid 30's, but I always try to come back and play whenever a welcome back weekend is offered like is on going now.
While I do think the game is a success and will continue to be a steady draw as long as the zone expansions continue to come out, I also feel it lacks something.
It's just a slow paced game.
Now while I don't mind that at times and once into some of the quests / fights it gives it's all and keeps you riveted, on the whole it just kinds of drags you along. I can think of a handfull of super exciting moments in my 30 levels of play, but for each one, theres like half a dozen ho-hum's.
I guess you'd just say it lacks spice. You can really compare it directly to the books. At no point is the LotR a page turner like the early Clive Cussler Dirk Pitt books. It's the kind that's a steady read, it's mostly enjoyable and eventually you'll finish it, but never in a weekend of steady reading.
I love the game, although don't play it currently. My biggest gripe is the character models just aren't that great. They look kind of funny sometimes, like when running. I hear they are adding new models soon?
I've haven't seen anything that suggested that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
My biggest complaint..character models. Armores look as if painted on skin most of the times. Otherwise its a fun game and over all enviornments are gorgeous. if they fix those ugly character models i will resub again.
I'm not saying it was a failure or anything, but it just seems like it could have been - maybe could still be - a much bigger success than it is. I've been trying MMO after MMO, and after three years away, I'm giving LOTRO a second look. This game has so much more to it than most other MMOs. Certainly more than WoW. Plus, it's possibly the biggest IP a dev could even hope for.
I know it has its flaws, but I'm wondering which really accounts for the lack of mass appeal. Is it simply poor advertising? They advertise a lot, but is it too low key? Maybe they need to push more new content that gives the impression of it being more developmentally alive, not just a fading MMO no one wants to waste resources on? Or maybe the weak first impression it makes during character creation? Maybe they should focus on adding more detail and customization to character appearance?
I'm thinking it's something very basic like that. Not the sort of details players only notice after getting serious about the game.
LoTRO is a unique case: while it certainly isn't as successful as it could be (should be) I think it has had moderate success. It is indeed a great game, very innovative in terms of PvE.
For me the big problem was the pvp, being a pvp player I always wished they would have done more with it. That said, every few months I go back and resubscrive to the game and play the added content, try out new quest, etc. I have a feeling that's what a lot of people do, they don't stay continously subscribed, but return often to play the new content.
My biggest complaint..character models. Armores look as if painted on skin most of the times. Otherwise its a fun game and over all enviornments are gorgeous. if they fix those ugly character models i will resub again.
This while it has never been a problem for me is a pretty common complaint I've heard about the game, it seems reasonable if they give some love there they may be able to make great strides in subs with minimal effort.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Im gonna let you on a little secret. Something even most of MMO producers do not realise.
That 12 million players WOW has. They are not MMO players. 90% of them are not interested in MMOs. Nor will ever play other MMO after they are done with WOW. About 30% of them are even not gamers. But people playing WOW because WOW was cultural phenomena.
Now lets talk about MMOs.
MMO fans are not many. ( I am not counting asia) Realistically if MMO is awesomelly uber sucesfull it could reach 1 million players...perhaps 1.5 at most.
LOTRO was pulling 500.000 which is quite good for PVE only mmo.
Problem is that WOW pulled some unrealistic expectations. So now everything appears small compared to it.
Lastly I doubt that even SWTOR will manage to pull over 2 million players over extended subscription times.
You haven't been practicising those lobotomies on yourself now have you?
Cos when you start throwing ridiculous numbers like this around....
You know things that "most MMO producers do not realise". Really? Do you read tea leaves too?
The most generous estimates of LOTRO's subscriptions put them at around 250k and there was one report from a Turbine insider putting them just under 200k back at release.
Seriously, you've just made up every single of these statistics. They're all wonderfully anti-WoW (aren't your marvellous!) but they're just fluff.
The OP's question of why LOTRO didn't do better is a valid one. For an IP this big I expected more. So did LOTRO's developers, who predicted they'd net over a million subscribers. But there are easily identifiable aspects of the game that limited its appeal.
Well his numbers may be made up for example purposes and the producers thing as well, but there is a bit of logic to his post.
WoW did in fact bring in a LOT of new blood to the genre. Most of the players they boast in the '11 million strong' are probably made up of gamers who never even considered MMOs before WoW and came to the game because they had ties to other Blizzard products such as the Warcraft series or Diablo 1 and 2.
Yes it's true that WoW swelled the ranks of MMO-players - and for obvious reasons beyond those you suggest. They marketed WoW like no other MMO has been marketed. They ran ads in mainstream media - and really good ads too. Their timing was also very fortunate. They entered the market with a solid product that had modest requirements at a time when there was very little competition.
But that's not what he said.
He's claimed that they're not gamers (who cares?) and that most (90%) aren't interested in MMOs. And for some bizarre reason he discounts all Asian mmo players and claims that LOTRO has double the number of players it is estimated to have.
I'm really no WoW-fan. I couldn't stand the end-game raid-grind and quit years ago. But I don't think discussions are ever helped by fiction dressed up as fact.
And I think it's unecessary as a "defence" of LOTRO. The OP isn't bagging LOTRO - he very specifically says he likes it. He's just asking why it isn't more successful.
Need evil chars that can move in many areas, not just one. Evil chars that can loot the equipment and do interesting quests as good chars. Also the game is not intuitive at all, mainly crafting
Blade with whom i have lived, blade with whom I now die. Serve right and justice one last time. Seek one last heart of evil. Still one last life of pain. Cut well old friend. Then farewell!
The reason that LORTO will never be what it could be is simple. The lack of any meaningful PVP is one big reason. While the PVMP is an innovative idea one that Turbine could have developed and attracted more players they did not. Where else could you play a warg or a spider in an open pvp match? Turbine hasn't done shit with the pvp system for going on 2 years now. They say they are focusing on what their player base wants while that’s mostly true they should have focused on what potential customers might have wanted as well just a little anyway.
LORTO has one of the most immersive pve games on the market and the best RP community's anywhere. Turbine has made a decision to focus their efforts on the pve and story telling side of the game. The result is their player base will forever be limited to that segment of the mmo community that likes just that. I have played LORTO for 2 years now and I am a lifer as well so I will continue to play on and off but the lack of options in how I choose to spend my time in game will always leave me wanting something else.
The reason that LORTO will never be what it could be is simple. The lack of any meaningful PVP is one big reason. While the PVMP is an innovative idea one that Turbine could have developed and attracted more players they did not. Where else could you play a warg or a spider in an open pvp match? Turbine hasn't done shit with the pvp system for going on 2 years now. They say they are focusing on what their player base wants while that’s mostly true they should have focused on what potential customers might have wanted as well just a little anyway.
LORTO has one of the most immersive pve games on the market and the best RP community's anywhere. Turbine has made a decision to focus their efforts on the pve and story telling side of the game. The result is their player base will forever be limited to that segment of the mmo community that likes just that. I have played LORTO for 2 years now and I am a lifer as well so I will continue to play on and off but the lack of options in how I choose to spend my time in game will always leave me wanting something else.
The emphasis on pvp won't be true to the games lore. Also, I may be wrong on this, but it's my humble opinion that whatever LOTRO has going for it in terms of an excellent community will be degraded by a pvp system.
The two games I believe that have had the best community, from my personal experience were FFXI and LoTRO. I don't think it's a coincidence that neither game had pvp.
Conversely, and I know people will flame me for this, but take a look at the WoW forums. When someone makes a comment about pvp, they immediately check their ranking and gear, and proceed to flame/make fun of that person. PvP breeds elitism. I've seen it in games like Halo 2 with the "trash talking" over Xbox live, and i've seen it in WoW Arenas.
To be fair, I believe a vast majority of players are not like that... but in WoW it was very ver noticeable.
The emphasis on pvp won't be true to the games lore. Also, I may be wrong on this, but it's my humble opinion that whatever LOTRO has going for it in terms of an excellent community will be degraded by a pvp system.
The two games I believe that have had the best community, from my personal experience were FFXI and LoTRO. I don't think it's a coincidence that neither game had pvp.
Conversely, and I know people will flame me for this, but take a look at the WoW forums. When someone makes a comment about pvp, they immediately check their ranking and gear, and proceed to flame/make fun of that person. PvP breeds elitism. I've seen it in games like Halo 2 with the "trash talking" over Xbox live, and i've seen it in WoW Arenas.
To be fair, I believe a vast majority of players are not like that... but in WoW it was very ver noticeable.
I agree about the community, but I don't understand the lore argument - how would it be against the lore if players could be bandits or outlaws, or something of that nature? Doesn't have to be elves vs humans, or something lore-killing like that, right? Not that I know how the mechanics of that might work, but I'm sure if they wanted to do it, they could find a way to make a better system than PvMP, that doesn't tarnish the lore in any way.
What I really disagree with, as far as the PvP issue goes though, is that it would make the game a bigger hit - because I think that for every player that needs PvP in thier MMO, there's another player that prefers an MMO without it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
LOTRO always felt too safe to me although its a fun PVE game if you enjoying doing nothing but questing when your ingame. IMO the world of Middle Earth needs open world PVP so Turbine failed as far as I'm conserned. I'm sure PVEers love the game though.
My biggest complaint..character models. Armores look as if painted on skin most of the times. Otherwise its a fun game and over all enviornments are gorgeous. if they fix those ugly character models i will resub again.
This while it has never been a problem for me is a pretty common complaint I've heard about the game, it seems reasonable if they give some love there they may be able to make great strides in subs with minimal effort.
This as well. I grew bored of the bland toon models after about a year. They could have been done much much better.
LOTRO always felt too safe to me although its a fun PVE game if you enjoying doing nothing but questing when your ingame. IMO the world of Middle Earth needs open world PVP so Turbine failed as far as I'm conserned. I'm sure PVEers love the game though.
Sorry not buying it. PvE Servers are just as popular in WoW as PvP Servers, so its certainly not the open world pvp missing. Also Warhammer proved that focus on pvp != success. Furthermore they would totally have to butcher the balance between classes to be made pvp viable.
Just take a look at how many changes there have been in the pve of wow for pvps sake, the current population of LoTRO wouldnt take kindly to a couple years of rollercoaster buffs/nerfs due to a gameaspect they dont want. Personally i think people are just screaming pvp because they enjoy it in other games. If Turbine put a focus on pvp the same people would complain its not could enough, xy is better, or that class xz needs to be nerfed cause it has ability yx. No thanks.
I know plenty people on my old wow RP Server that never bothered with arenas or even BGs. There is room for a PVE mmorpg, certainly more room than for a PVP mmorpg. What LoTRO needs is:
1. Better char animations, less clipping.
2. More content for housing(kin and private).
3. More content at level cap. And give us a reason to run the old max level content, maybe in a special hero version that drops comparable but different items to the current high level dungeons.
4. Legendary items, nice idea, make it better(less random, some more control).
5. PvMP. More content, give us a reason to do it(destiny point system, more good buffs).
Well thats what i think anyway. LoTRO should focus on the stuff that is different from other MMoRPGs, not try to do some halfassed copy of a system from a game with a completely different target audience.
Dont want to be rude or anything, but i dont want to see the kind of atmosphere in LoTRO that we have in WoW, complete with anal joke sundays, pug arse modes and the other immature crap thats so common there. Nothing wrong if you like that, but there should be a place for people who dont like that either. And if we just go and copy wow, steal some of their playerbase, what makes you think they will behave different in LoTRO than they do in WoW?
LOTRO always felt too safe to me although its a fun PVE game if you enjoying doing nothing but questing when your ingame. IMO the world of Middle Earth needs open world PVP so Turbine failed as far as I'm conserned. I'm sure PVEers love the game though.
If you want to get rid of (estimated) 90% of the existing subscribers you should certainly do that.
EVE Online isn't a PVE game - LotRO isn't a PVP game. It's good to be really good at one thing. There is room for good, PVE- or PVP-specialized games like LotRO and EVE.
There are games that are quite decent at both - that is good for a starter game - it lets people experience what they like and what they don't.
I'm not saying it was a failure or anything, but it just seems like it could have been - maybe could still be - a much bigger success than it is. I've been trying MMO after MMO, and after three years away, I'm giving LOTRO a second look. This game has so much more to it than most other MMOs. Certainly more than WoW. Plus, it's possibly the biggest IP a dev could even hope for.
I know it has its flaws, but I'm wondering which really accounts for the lack of mass appeal. Is it simply poor advertising? They advertise a lot, but is it too low key? Maybe they need to push more new content that gives the impression of it being more developmentally alive, not just a fading MMO no one wants to waste resources on? Or maybe the weak first impression it makes during character creation? Maybe they should focus on adding more detail and customization to character appearance?
I'm thinking it's something very basic like that. Not the sort of details players only notice after getting serious about the game.
Because it was designed (intentionally or not) to play like a single player RPG (with limited multiplayer options) rather than a "Massively" Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. And, the game was designed more around Tolkien's story (LOTR) instead of his world (Middle Earth).
So, basically, what you have is a story that you can travel through, but not a world that you can freely explore. Very linear, very controlled gameplay.
Basically, the devs (unwittingly) worked very hard to keep this game from being the success it should have been. They spent money and effort to design failure into this title. Part of the problem could have been the license holders forcing them to conform to the LOTR storyline.
By any objective standard... LoTRO is a huge success. The only reason this game is getting a bad rep is because it's always getting compared to WoW.
It's really really disapointing to see everyone want every single mmo to have the same things. People automatically assume that all mmo's need to have pve, pvp, battleground, talent trees,etc.
I LOVE LOTRO and have been playing for the last 4 months. I only regret not picking it up earlier. There is a demand for purely PvE games. All the WoW clones turned out to be flops. AoC, Warhammer, etc... Though, AoC is doing much better, it has less people playing than LoTRO.
It's my opinion that PvP ruins games. If a game is expressely designed for PvP it could work, but games that try to balance around PvP and PvE end up watering down both. Go look at the WoW boards about constant complaints, with flavor of the month classes, with the wave of nerf/buff every month/expansion/content patch. Look at the elitism Arenas breeds.
How many times do certain classes get buffed/nerfed in PvE based on PvP imbalances.
LoTRO is an AWESOME PvE game. If it's not what you're looking for, just move on to something else. I never understood the constant need for players to make new MMO into "WHAT THEY WANT!" It MUST have this, it MUST have that.
Recently, FFXIV developers were interviewed about the beta process. They said that Western players submitted FIVE times more "feedback" than Japanese players even though there were the SAME NUMBER of beta players in each region.
Eastern players play a beta and try to fix the bugs and make suggestions that stays true to the creators vision of the game. They go into a game wanting to explore and be a part of it. Western players go into a game wanting to CHANGE it. The FFXIV developers said they recieved many suggestions for FFXIV in the form of "The game should be like this, the game should include that... "
It's really disapointing that no MMO in the western market can stand on its own merits. People are constantly trying to change instead of accepting a game for what it is.
This game really is something special, just tried skirmishes and they are such a fun implementation of a basicly age old idea(thinking P&P roleplay campaings, pick and chose) its seems silly it wasnt done before ...
Basicly you get a list of Skirmishes, think like BGs but PVE instead of PVP. You can pick one you want to play, and it asks you the difficulty, and for how many player it should be startet. Then you or your group gets transportet there and you basicly play an instance customized by you(its automatically level appropiate). The Skirmishes are story driven like we are used to with LoTRO, you get objectives like take that point and hold it etc. Pretty standard up to now. But inside that instance you get to summon a sidekick, that you get to fully customize. From looks(basic, not that many options), to class to abilities. The enemies inside this BF of yours drop skirmish marks and some related stuff, and not much else so not cluttering your inventory(which is a bit of a problem with LoTRO). They give full experience, and count to your deeds(think titles and abilities rewarded for killing x y times or using ability z y times). This is interesting because many of these deeds are bound to specific regions, for example a starter region, and are boring to grind for higher level chars.
The marks you get can be used to buy items for you(pretty highend stuff), improve abilities of your sidekick, change his looks etc. Better items require special marks only dropped by bosses, or only in certain game modes(i.e. 6 man groups chosen in difficulty). You also get the option to upgrade your marks, bring 10 3 man group marks get 1 6 man group mark, so you eventually get everything even if you dont do big groups.
Now what makes that so awesome?
1. You get to customize a sidekick, buy stuff, tell it which abilities to bring etc. He/She is your baby, its addicting. Now you not only want to level yourself but also him/her. Good thing you can do both at once.
2. Its not just a pet. You get to pimp it, so it gets quite powerful. Also you get to chose the role it fills.
3. It fills holes in your equipment. Mark based systems always do, but in wow for example they are restricted to endgame. This offers you equipment from level 30 - 65. For example i needed spaulders, no problem, got a nice pair and replaced my 10 level old quest crap.
4. I get to choose what i want to play, and when i want to play it. Choice is good, i can play a defense if i want, or a offense, avoid enemies i dont like etc.
5. Sick of traveling? No more running 10 mins to the next quest(Lotro seems huge at times ...)? Skirmishes port you.
I kind emphasize enough how much the sidekick changes the game. Imagine your a healer, you could train a protector(tank) or warrior(aoe machine) and let him go to town while you do what your class does best, healing. Or your a Guardian(tank), get yourself a healer and a big twohander, or a debuffer etc pp. This makes the game enjoyable for people that play a class that sucks at soloing. You dont have to reskill/trait just so you can go from raid/group mode to solo/questing mode.
So yeah, turbine has done some awesome stuff. They just need to give us more of the stuff thats awesome while improving the stuff thats not awesome. Dont really need any big gamechanges.
This game really is something special, just tried skirmishes and they are such a fun implementation of a basicly age old idea(thinking P&P roleplay campaings, pick and chose) its seems silly it wasnt done before ...
Basicly you get a list of Skirmishes, think like BGs but PVE instead of PVP. You can pick one you want to play, and it asks you the difficulty, and for how many player it should be startet. Then you or your group gets transportet there and you basicly play an instance customized by you(its automatically level appropiate). The Skirmishes are story driven like we are used to with LoTRO, you get objectives like take that point and hold it etc. Pretty standard up to now. But inside that instance you get to summon a sidekick, that you get to fully customize. From looks(basic, not that many options), to class to abilities. The enemies inside this BF of yours drop skirmish marks and some related stuff, and not much else so not cluttering your inventory(which is a bit of a problem with LoTRO). They give full experience, and count to your deeds(think titles and abilities rewarded for killing x y times or using ability z y times). This is interesting because many of these deeds are bound to specific regions, for example a starter region, and are boring to grind for higher level chars.
The marks you get can be used to buy items for you(pretty highend stuff), improve abilities of your sidekick, change his looks etc. Better items require special marks only dropped by bosses, or only in certain game modes(i.e. 6 man groups chosen in difficulty). You also get the option to upgrade your marks, bring 10 3 man group marks get 1 6 man group mark, so you eventually get everything even if you dont do big groups.
Now what makes that so awesome?
1. You get to customize a sidekick, buy stuff, tell it which abilities to bring etc. He/She is your baby, its addicting. Now you not only want to level yourself but also him/her. Good thing you can do both at once.
2. Its not just a pet. You get to pimp it, so it gets quite powerful. Also you get to chose the role it fills.
3. It fills holes in your equipment. Mark based systems always do, but in wow for example they are restricted to endgame. This offers you equipment from level 30 - 65. For example i needed spaulders, no problem, got a nice pair and replaced my 10 level old quest crap.
4. I get to choose what i want to play, and when i want to play it. Choice is good, i can play a defense if i want, or a offense, avoid enemies i dont like etc.
5. Sick of traveling? No more running 10 mins to the next quest(Lotro seems huge at times ...)? Skirmishes port you.
I kind emphasize enough how much the sidekick changes the game. Imagine your a healer, you could train a protector(tank) or warrior(aoe machine) and let him go to town while you do what your class does best, healing. Or your a Guardian(tank), get yourself a healer and a big twohander, or a debuffer etc pp. This makes the game enjoyable for people that play a class that sucks at soloing. You dont have to reskill/trait just so you can go from raid/group mode to solo/questing mode.
So yeah, turbine has done some awesome stuff. They just need to give us more of the stuff thats awesome while improving the stuff thats not awesome. Dont really need any big gamechanges.
I loved skirmishes. I did. However, they got stale fast for one reason. No rewards. If the armor (which takes forever to grind for) was on par with other lvl 65ish armors, I'd have happily grinded away for months. But its inferior to the lvl 58 crafted gear. Unless something has changed, I feel that skirmishes could have been implemented better.
I loved skirmishes. I did. However, they got stale fast for one reason. No rewards. If the armor (which takes forever to grind for) was on par with other lvl 65ish armors, I'd have happily grinded away for months. But its inferior to the lvl 58 crafted gear. Unless something has changed, I feel that skirmishes could have been implemented better.
Not sure about that, but atleast at my level its a nonissue. Maybe they just added some new items, that would be easy enough for them i guess. Also you get craft items there aswell, like those shards that make up 90% of those crafted one shot recipes costs.
But i was more talking about the idea of it really. I vastly prefer this over making a DPS class out of every class so everyone can level the same. Thats what annoyed me about the last years in wow, they equalized everthing up to the point that literally any class can dps, and even several classes bringing the same procs. Not to mention they pretty much slaughtered the need for CC or even "brains while pulling", its just a tank and spank game nowadays. When they made magical damage stats the same as magical healing stats it was the final nail in the coffin for me, heard it gets simplified even more in Cataclysm(defense and spellpower gone from gear), which makes me glad i quit. Atleast LoTRO doesnt get dumbed down every patch.
I loved skirmishes. I did. However, they got stale fast for one reason. No rewards. If the armor (which takes forever to grind for) was on par with other lvl 65ish armors, I'd have happily grinded away for months. But its inferior to the lvl 58 crafted gear. Unless something has changed, I feel that skirmishes could have been implemented better.
Not sure about that, but atleast at my level its a nonissue. Maybe they just added some new items, that would be easy enough for them i guess. Also you get craft items there aswell, like those shards that make up 90% of those crafted one shot recipes costs.
But i was more talking about the idea of it really. I vastly prefer this over making a DPS class out of every class so everyone can level the same. Thats what annoyed me about the last years in wow, they equalized everthing up to the point that literally any class can dps, and even several classes bringing the same procs. Not to mention they pretty much slaughtered the need for CC or even "brains while pulling", its just a tank and spank game nowadays. When they made magical damage stats the same as magical healing stats it was the final nail in the coffin for me, heard it gets simplified even more in Cataclysm(defense and spellpower gone from gear), which makes me glad i quit. Atleast LoTRO doesnt get dumbed down every patch.
absolutely agree on the idea of it. Pretty much all I did for the first month or so after SoM hit was play skirmishes. But once I got my helper tweaked to where I wanted, I ran out of things to spend marks on. IMO the rewards overall aren't worth it though, and fun can only get you by for so long.
Comments
I guess we'll find out soon enough. WB is a publicly-traded company so game revenue must be disclosed in their quarterly.
Even if its just $$, we'll still be able to extrapolate that into semi-accurate sub numbers.
It's not THAT loose!
I get that they bend a bit but they bend within a somewhat reasonable framework.
There Tolkien references that there might be other balrogs, and there are drakes left.
But having players ride eagles or dragons or whatever is just off.
And the pseudo rignwraiths are essentially what the ring wraiths are donig in between the scenes in the book. It's added but it doesn't fly in the face of what "might" have happened.
I've read the books and though I don't like many things they have done, at this point it's not a complete aberration.
Essentially what you are saying is "well, they have already bent quite a bit... let's just throw it all out".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Altough the leveling is fun and well built, end-game is lacking. When you get to level 65 and do all the 4 instances that exist at level cap you realize that everything else is just a grind.
So usually people level to 65 and cancel their account. Thats why it isn't as big as it could have been.
What killed it for me was the grinding slayer deeds.
My son and I petered out on the game in our early / mid 30's, but I always try to come back and play whenever a welcome back weekend is offered like is on going now.
While I do think the game is a success and will continue to be a steady draw as long as the zone expansions continue to come out, I also feel it lacks something.
It's just a slow paced game.
Now while I don't mind that at times and once into some of the quests / fights it gives it's all and keeps you riveted, on the whole it just kinds of drags you along. I can think of a handfull of super exciting moments in my 30 levels of play, but for each one, theres like half a dozen ho-hum's.
I guess you'd just say it lacks spice. You can really compare it directly to the books. At no point is the LotR a page turner like the early Clive Cussler Dirk Pitt books. It's the kind that's a steady read, it's mostly enjoyable and eventually you'll finish it, but never in a weekend of steady reading.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
I've haven't seen anything that suggested that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
My biggest complaint..character models. Armores look as if painted on skin most of the times. Otherwise its a fun game and over all enviornments are gorgeous. if they fix those ugly character models i will resub again.
i wanted LOTR not LOTR/WOW.
LoTRO is a unique case: while it certainly isn't as successful as it could be (should be) I think it has had moderate success. It is indeed a great game, very innovative in terms of PvE.
For me the big problem was the pvp, being a pvp player I always wished they would have done more with it. That said, every few months I go back and resubscrive to the game and play the added content, try out new quest, etc. I have a feeling that's what a lot of people do, they don't stay continously subscribed, but return often to play the new content.
It's a great game.
This while it has never been a problem for me is a pretty common complaint I've heard about the game, it seems reasonable if they give some love there they may be able to make great strides in subs with minimal effort.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Yes it's true that WoW swelled the ranks of MMO-players - and for obvious reasons beyond those you suggest. They marketed WoW like no other MMO has been marketed. They ran ads in mainstream media - and really good ads too. Their timing was also very fortunate. They entered the market with a solid product that had modest requirements at a time when there was very little competition.
But that's not what he said.
He's claimed that they're not gamers (who cares?) and that most (90%) aren't interested in MMOs. And for some bizarre reason he discounts all Asian mmo players and claims that LOTRO has double the number of players it is estimated to have.
I'm really no WoW-fan. I couldn't stand the end-game raid-grind and quit years ago. But I don't think discussions are ever helped by fiction dressed up as fact.
And I think it's unecessary as a "defence" of LOTRO. The OP isn't bagging LOTRO - he very specifically says he likes it. He's just asking why it isn't more successful.
Need evil chars that can move in many areas, not just one. Evil chars that can loot the equipment and do interesting quests as good chars.
Also the game is not intuitive at all, mainly crafting
Blade with whom i have lived, blade with whom I now die. Serve right and justice one last time. Seek one last heart of evil. Still one last life of pain. Cut well old friend. Then farewell!
The reason that LORTO will never be what it could be is simple. The lack of any meaningful PVP is one big reason. While the PVMP is an innovative idea one that Turbine could have developed and attracted more players they did not. Where else could you play a warg or a spider in an open pvp match? Turbine hasn't done shit with the pvp system for going on 2 years now. They say they are focusing on what their player base wants while that’s mostly true they should have focused on what potential customers might have wanted as well just a little anyway.
LORTO has one of the most immersive pve games on the market and the best RP community's anywhere. Turbine has made a decision to focus their efforts on the pve and story telling side of the game. The result is their player base will forever be limited to that segment of the mmo community that likes just that. I have played LORTO for 2 years now and I am a lifer as well so I will continue to play on and off but the lack of options in how I choose to spend my time in game will always leave me wanting something else.
The emphasis on pvp won't be true to the games lore. Also, I may be wrong on this, but it's my humble opinion that whatever LOTRO has going for it in terms of an excellent community will be degraded by a pvp system.
The two games I believe that have had the best community, from my personal experience were FFXI and LoTRO. I don't think it's a coincidence that neither game had pvp.
Conversely, and I know people will flame me for this, but take a look at the WoW forums. When someone makes a comment about pvp, they immediately check their ranking and gear, and proceed to flame/make fun of that person. PvP breeds elitism. I've seen it in games like Halo 2 with the "trash talking" over Xbox live, and i've seen it in WoW Arenas.
To be fair, I believe a vast majority of players are not like that... but in WoW it was very ver noticeable.
I agree about the community, but I don't understand the lore argument - how would it be against the lore if players could be bandits or outlaws, or something of that nature? Doesn't have to be elves vs humans, or something lore-killing like that, right? Not that I know how the mechanics of that might work, but I'm sure if they wanted to do it, they could find a way to make a better system than PvMP, that doesn't tarnish the lore in any way.
What I really disagree with, as far as the PvP issue goes though, is that it would make the game a bigger hit - because I think that for every player that needs PvP in thier MMO, there's another player that prefers an MMO without it.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Three words: Lack of PVP
LOTRO always felt too safe to me although its a fun PVE game if you enjoying doing nothing but questing when your ingame. IMO the world of Middle Earth needs open world PVP so Turbine failed as far as I'm conserned. I'm sure PVEers love the game though.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
This as well. I grew bored of the bland toon models after about a year. They could have been done much much better.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
Sorry not buying it. PvE Servers are just as popular in WoW as PvP Servers, so its certainly not the open world pvp missing. Also Warhammer proved that focus on pvp != success. Furthermore they would totally have to butcher the balance between classes to be made pvp viable.
Just take a look at how many changes there have been in the pve of wow for pvps sake, the current population of LoTRO wouldnt take kindly to a couple years of rollercoaster buffs/nerfs due to a gameaspect they dont want. Personally i think people are just screaming pvp because they enjoy it in other games. If Turbine put a focus on pvp the same people would complain its not could enough, xy is better, or that class xz needs to be nerfed cause it has ability yx. No thanks.
I know plenty people on my old wow RP Server that never bothered with arenas or even BGs. There is room for a PVE mmorpg, certainly more room than for a PVP mmorpg. What LoTRO needs is:
1. Better char animations, less clipping.
2. More content for housing(kin and private).
3. More content at level cap. And give us a reason to run the old max level content, maybe in a special hero version that drops comparable but different items to the current high level dungeons.
4. Legendary items, nice idea, make it better(less random, some more control).
5. PvMP. More content, give us a reason to do it(destiny point system, more good buffs).
Well thats what i think anyway. LoTRO should focus on the stuff that is different from other MMoRPGs, not try to do some halfassed copy of a system from a game with a completely different target audience.
Dont want to be rude or anything, but i dont want to see the kind of atmosphere in LoTRO that we have in WoW, complete with anal joke sundays, pug arse modes and the other immature crap thats so common there. Nothing wrong if you like that, but there should be a place for people who dont like that either. And if we just go and copy wow, steal some of their playerbase, what makes you think they will behave different in LoTRO than they do in WoW?
If you want to get rid of (estimated) 90% of the existing subscribers you should certainly do that.
EVE Online isn't a PVE game - LotRO isn't a PVP game. It's good to be really good at one thing. There is room for good, PVE- or PVP-specialized games like LotRO and EVE.
There are games that are quite decent at both - that is good for a starter game - it lets people experience what they like and what they don't.
Because it was designed (intentionally or not) to play like a single player RPG (with limited multiplayer options) rather than a "Massively" Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. And, the game was designed more around Tolkien's story (LOTR) instead of his world (Middle Earth).
So, basically, what you have is a story that you can travel through, but not a world that you can freely explore. Very linear, very controlled gameplay.
Basically, the devs (unwittingly) worked very hard to keep this game from being the success it should have been. They spent money and effort to design failure into this title. Part of the problem could have been the license holders forcing them to conform to the LOTR storyline.
By any objective standard... LoTRO is a huge success. The only reason this game is getting a bad rep is because it's always getting compared to WoW.
It's really really disapointing to see everyone want every single mmo to have the same things. People automatically assume that all mmo's need to have pve, pvp, battleground, talent trees,etc.
I LOVE LOTRO and have been playing for the last 4 months. I only regret not picking it up earlier. There is a demand for purely PvE games. All the WoW clones turned out to be flops. AoC, Warhammer, etc... Though, AoC is doing much better, it has less people playing than LoTRO.
It's my opinion that PvP ruins games. If a game is expressely designed for PvP it could work, but games that try to balance around PvP and PvE end up watering down both. Go look at the WoW boards about constant complaints, with flavor of the month classes, with the wave of nerf/buff every month/expansion/content patch. Look at the elitism Arenas breeds.
How many times do certain classes get buffed/nerfed in PvE based on PvP imbalances.
LoTRO is an AWESOME PvE game. If it's not what you're looking for, just move on to something else. I never understood the constant need for players to make new MMO into "WHAT THEY WANT!" It MUST have this, it MUST have that.
Recently, FFXIV developers were interviewed about the beta process. They said that Western players submitted FIVE times more "feedback" than Japanese players even though there were the SAME NUMBER of beta players in each region.
Eastern players play a beta and try to fix the bugs and make suggestions that stays true to the creators vision of the game. They go into a game wanting to explore and be a part of it. Western players go into a game wanting to CHANGE it. The FFXIV developers said they recieved many suggestions for FFXIV in the form of "The game should be like this, the game should include that... "
It's really disapointing that no MMO in the western market can stand on its own merits. People are constantly trying to change instead of accepting a game for what it is.
Thank goodness Turbine hasn't listened.
This game really is something special, just tried skirmishes and they are such a fun implementation of a basicly age old idea(thinking P&P roleplay campaings, pick and chose) its seems silly it wasnt done before ...
Basicly you get a list of Skirmishes, think like BGs but PVE instead of PVP. You can pick one you want to play, and it asks you the difficulty, and for how many player it should be startet. Then you or your group gets transportet there and you basicly play an instance customized by you(its automatically level appropiate). The Skirmishes are story driven like we are used to with LoTRO, you get objectives like take that point and hold it etc. Pretty standard up to now. But inside that instance you get to summon a sidekick, that you get to fully customize. From looks(basic, not that many options), to class to abilities. The enemies inside this BF of yours drop skirmish marks and some related stuff, and not much else so not cluttering your inventory(which is a bit of a problem with LoTRO). They give full experience, and count to your deeds(think titles and abilities rewarded for killing x y times or using ability z y times). This is interesting because many of these deeds are bound to specific regions, for example a starter region, and are boring to grind for higher level chars.
The marks you get can be used to buy items for you(pretty highend stuff), improve abilities of your sidekick, change his looks etc. Better items require special marks only dropped by bosses, or only in certain game modes(i.e. 6 man groups chosen in difficulty). You also get the option to upgrade your marks, bring 10 3 man group marks get 1 6 man group mark, so you eventually get everything even if you dont do big groups.
Now what makes that so awesome?
1. You get to customize a sidekick, buy stuff, tell it which abilities to bring etc. He/She is your baby, its addicting. Now you not only want to level yourself but also him/her. Good thing you can do both at once.
2. Its not just a pet. You get to pimp it, so it gets quite powerful. Also you get to chose the role it fills.
3. It fills holes in your equipment. Mark based systems always do, but in wow for example they are restricted to endgame. This offers you equipment from level 30 - 65. For example i needed spaulders, no problem, got a nice pair and replaced my 10 level old quest crap.
4. I get to choose what i want to play, and when i want to play it. Choice is good, i can play a defense if i want, or a offense, avoid enemies i dont like etc.
5. Sick of traveling? No more running 10 mins to the next quest(Lotro seems huge at times ...)? Skirmishes port you.
I kind emphasize enough how much the sidekick changes the game. Imagine your a healer, you could train a protector(tank) or warrior(aoe machine) and let him go to town while you do what your class does best, healing. Or your a Guardian(tank), get yourself a healer and a big twohander, or a debuffer etc pp. This makes the game enjoyable for people that play a class that sucks at soloing. You dont have to reskill/trait just so you can go from raid/group mode to solo/questing mode.
So yeah, turbine has done some awesome stuff. They just need to give us more of the stuff thats awesome while improving the stuff thats not awesome. Dont really need any big gamechanges.
I loved skirmishes. I did. However, they got stale fast for one reason. No rewards. If the armor (which takes forever to grind for) was on par with other lvl 65ish armors, I'd have happily grinded away for months. But its inferior to the lvl 58 crafted gear. Unless something has changed, I feel that skirmishes could have been implemented better.
Not sure about that, but atleast at my level its a nonissue. Maybe they just added some new items, that would be easy enough for them i guess. Also you get craft items there aswell, like those shards that make up 90% of those crafted one shot recipes costs.
But i was more talking about the idea of it really. I vastly prefer this over making a DPS class out of every class so everyone can level the same. Thats what annoyed me about the last years in wow, they equalized everthing up to the point that literally any class can dps, and even several classes bringing the same procs. Not to mention they pretty much slaughtered the need for CC or even "brains while pulling", its just a tank and spank game nowadays. When they made magical damage stats the same as magical healing stats it was the final nail in the coffin for me, heard it gets simplified even more in Cataclysm(defense and spellpower gone from gear), which makes me glad i quit. Atleast LoTRO doesnt get dumbed down every patch.
absolutely agree on the idea of it. Pretty much all I did for the first month or so after SoM hit was play skirmishes. But once I got my helper tweaked to where I wanted, I ran out of things to spend marks on. IMO the rewards overall aren't worth it though, and fun can only get you by for so long.