Well, what one must remember about MMOs is that they are becoming a niche market. Because of this, players are keying in on certain features that they enjoy and are denouncing all contrary features or all games that lack those characteristics that they look for. To say a game will fail is not true necessarily. That may take your opinion a bit too far. However, I believe a certain degree of expectation and entitlement should be a factor in playability. I mean, who wants to just assume a game will be good and play it if it does not contain any of the aspects one has come to enjoy in an MMO? I am just taking a shot in the dark here, but I would assume that when people think that certain aspects are important to them they know what they are talking about. So they aren't broadening their horizons, who says they have to try everything?
Couldnt agree more. I think players as a whole have come to expect a standard, and yes Im one of those players.
I for one look for several things at this point. combat, crafting/economy, exploration and story. Mind you story is just really getting there for many developmentr teams in thier games, while others have used it from the get go and thats not bad, but I think when developers stray away from one of those things in order to have more of another they are hurting the game as a whole. Then again I dont jump on gaming forums and yell "PHAIL!" just because one of those things is missing. I just withhold my money until that feature or part of the game is in. No big deal. If it never sees the light of day, then I dont play the game. Thats my right as a consumer.
I think at some point we as players can have so much patience and toleration but lets face it, mmorpg's are a frustrating genre in the first place. Who here can name a game that had a bug free launch for instance? or a single year where players werent reporting bugs and lag issues? hasnt happened. Not one mmorpg development team has had that luxury, so we do give them credit, noone is saying making an mmo is easy, rather, we have all come to expect a standard and after so many mmo turn outs, we cant understand why a team would go outside of the norm before they have the standard in place? On that note, I dont think you deviate from the standard when your modeling after an IP, canon or otherwise, the game is an mmorpg first.
On other accounts I think money has always played a bigger and better part in the development then the developers themselves over time. For me or anyone else to jump on a gaming forum and scream at developers in the term of, You dont know wtf your doing ect.. is silly, especially when deadlines and funds have gotten tighter with higher costs. So on some point I respect these folks trying to churn out the best mmorpg they can when theyre rushed, because they have to deal with the player aggro for it and not the boards an shareholders who remain silent and behind the scenes. At some point developers should really start to draw a line as well, which can't be easy in this market or for any other creative, but should say hey look, were not going to rush things anymore, we're going to create something here that people can enjoy and if you dont want to fund us to help people get thier monies worth and yours, then we arent doing it. Thats just plain quality and a good business practice for anyone selling anything.
Speaking on patience and tolerance, Blizzard has had years on top of years and million apon million to construct and polish thier primary title, on that note, many of these other games people scream fail at need that same time and money right along with patience and tolerance from the players. However, allowing for time to develope the world is not an excuse to launch poorly and in a shallow manner, launch with the standards and do the extra stuff as you go, if your trying to keep an audience, why would you do otherwise? When you do that your effectively telling the consumer Im going to sell you half of the game now and half of the game later. Who here can be happy about that? I know the developers cant be happy about it, because we sure as hell arent.
For instance why launch with combat only knowing players will hit cap in a short time, in that short time you know the players will have nothing to do that they havent already done. Thats a perfect example of taking several thousand players who enjoy your game at first and come to realize that the game no longer offers playability, rather its time to cancel. And developers are doing this lately, when you launch an mmo you have to give the players more to do than one thing in your game, this also gives you time to start working on the things your wanting to put in. (and no I dont mean time syncs) They have to be able to stay busy and enjoy themselves and when they cant, yes, they start screaming fail.
Now for the guy who started in a few posts ago saying "players dont know shit " ect, I beg to differ, if they didnt know what they wanted they wouldnt get so upset. Players have not put thier money into mmorpgs as the vocal monetary contributor after the fact to play games that dont meet expectations, to play games that have been rushed out, half completed or highly lacking. Ask developers? They are playing these games too! They are also players and they often realize when they have been taken short even moreso than the players who dont work in the genre. They can tell.
Granted we have all probably seen some very creative suggestion from the playerbase and yes, the players presenting these suggestions may not know technicly how these things are done, but its what theyre clearly asking for, a design of fun in thier own minds. This is where all the creative process begins anyway. Mind you it takes two seconds for a developer to login to the forum and say oh wow, great suggestion, however, at this time we're technicly incapable of doing that. NO harm no foul and the player has been informed. A player would rather have that than no answer at all. So communication is also key here.
You're not arguing, because I don't see your point of view? You really think logic works that way, huh? Wow.The OP (yours) is about the lack of validity of other people's point of view based on your criteria! Apparently, if my perspective doesn't fit your view, you don't even see the point contained therein. Then you go on to assume many things, starting "In my estimation". Nice psychic ability you got there. But honestly, you are 100% free to hypothesize, estimate and assume- and also (in this case) 100% free to be wrong. Something you would like to 'curtail' in others if the same actions apply to an MMO. Your respect for individual ideas is suspect, but I admire your silence toward corporate shenanigans. Oh, and if you can't follow my 'not argument', you definantly can't state my opinion is a 'poor' version of yours. Maybe yours is a poor version of mine- one wherein people don't have freedom of speech if the concepts 'entitlement' or 'expectation' are involved. See- I wouldn't do that- but I guess that's what makes your opinion superior.
I don't think you understand the words you're even using. Expectation means you are anticipating something. If you are anticipating a feature that was never announced, or isn't in the realm of possibility then all you are doing is getting your hopes up over an illusion. Thats what this is about, its not about hypothesis, its not about estimations, however it is more about assumptions then either of the previous and primarily about expectations.
If you expect that the next electric car GM will produce will also be the first flying car, but you base it on your assumption that that is how the market will go, then you will be let down and disillusioned. If you expect a game to cater to your favorite FPS style of gameplay, and you buy it and it doesn't, then you've let yourself down before you even started the game. This has nothing to do with customer feedback. This has nothing to do with improving features. Its expecting these features, or feeling companies owe you these features, simply because you want them.
You can ask them to add PvP, you can threaten to not play the game without PvP, and you can talk to everyone about what kind of PvP would, or could, be in the game, but until the developers have confirmed it, you shouldn't expect it or feel they owe it to you. If the game releases without it, and you buy it anyway, then you aren't playing the game for what they released it with, you are playing an unfinished version in your head that was never intended.
Your OP
"The answer is, we as players are entitled to nothing, and should expect generally, and in the most obtuse way, only what the development team can confirm."
Which leaves nothing else, does it? You limit yourself to only the things you believe in. Game design is not religion- there is actually a history of designers picking up on expectations and rumors, and delivering on them. You want sit and be silent, waiting for developer scraps by yourself- feel free. Me, I'll talk about possibilities. I think they're wonderful.
It leaves everything the developers have confirmed, and any conjecture on how you think the features may work, or what features you'd like to see. You just shouldn't expect any of these features unless they have been confirmed, unless of course, you want to be let down. I can't explain it any simpler then that. Some developer may say "Hey they say they want mounted combat, we should put it in there" is much different then a player saying "I was expecting mounted combat, which they don't have, so the game fails" when it was never on the feature list. Again, I wonder how you are defining what expectation means.
If you say so.
I did say so, thanks.
Like this is about me. George Lucas is rich, and I was never a Star Wars fanboi to begin with- just an example for you to dismiss, ignoring my actual point entirely at your convenience. "George Lucas rained on your parade." is a brilliant conclusion to draw from "Let him do what he wants." Yep- makes perfect sense & oh, you know me so well.
Erroneous, you displayed distaste and I never claimed to know you, nor would I. I can only express how I perceive what you write, and in that instance, it looked like you weren't very happy with George Lucas.
I think it is possible to make a more non-sequitar and assumptively peripheral post, but this is a great attempt. It also fails miserably at realizing how reality works in the slightest as far as product sales go. Just because it's an MMO and they could lose subscribers doesn't mean they didn't make money- look at Guild Wars for the proof of that- they don't even have a subscription fee. Hype an MMO, sell boxes, and you've done at least what every non-mmo game has done- some which had bigger budgets and more assets. We assume not getting subs is 'FAIL', but try and return an MMO to the place of purchase once opened. You pretty much can't in most cases- so ALL box sales are 'WIN'.
Translation- voting with your wallet after the fact, won't actually work, especially if the dev was planning short term to begin with- And you will never know if that's ever the case- you just assume it isn't.
You assume 'discussion' is the same as 'demand'. You translate 'expectation' to 'spoiled brat' and 'entitlement' to 'delusional'. I just see people talking, hoping, dreaming 'out loud'. There are some people who have strong opinions. Like... you for example... but they have valid points, some I agree with, others I don't. The devs don't listen to most of us, and such is life. We just have to deal with each others silliness. I like silliness- it opens the mind. No 'expectations'? No dreams. No 'entitlement'? No spirit. I'll listen to a hundred skewed rants for variety rather than one watered down press release.
And when the game (whatever it is) ships, I'll play it, knowing that chances are better the devs broke their promises than some fanboi misled me.
When you buy anything, whether it be a game, car, horse, hamburger, you are the consumer. Guild Wars didn't force you to buy their product. If you buy it sight unseen then thats your problem. I vote with my wallet everyday when I buy a sandwich for lunch, or a coffee in the morning. Thats how the world works, not every company is trying to dupe you. Stupid consumers are just that, and if you buy a product that you though was something else, then you deserve what you get. I've done it before, I'm sure we all have. Fortunately in the MMO and entertainment field we have a number of ways to determine if something is for us and what isn't. Dreams don't equal expectations. Dreams equal wants or desires. Entitlement doesn't equal spirit, it comprises a claim that you feel you deserve.
You'd rather listen to countless rants then a fanboi that enjoys the game? Thats your prerogative, you'd rather listen to whats broken then whats enjoyable, thats great for you. If you want to thrive on broken promises that were never made, then expect all you want, I'm glad you'll enjoy playing your always broken games.
You know, I can see that happening here and there, but for the most part devs do little nore than bugfixes to improve most games. Player feedback has been arguing against 'kill 10 rats' and 'fedex' quests for ages- and now all we get is more of the same, sandbox PvP, and FPS team gameplay. It's something, but I sure as heck don't remember seeing a thread that said "I want to play capture the flag 1000 times" somewhere before it occured. I could have missed it- no biggie, but I don't think a deluge of player feedback made that happen. I also don't see it as 'horrible'- just not how I want to spen my game time- some people love it. Whatever.
The thing is, everybody asks for something different. Some people like capture the flag, maybe the developers themselves prefer it. Fedex quests and kill X amount quests are not just part of MMOs but they have them in lots of RPGs. It gets way overdone in MMOs due to the necessity for expanded content, which ends up always being repetitive. I agree with you in the sense that things need to change in that regard, but I also don't hear a lot of "Instead of X amount of rats, can't we have..." posts. Maybe developers need our help to create a new way to progress, but we shouldn't automatically expect them to come up with something different because we feel killing 10 rats is boring.
You want people 'not to expect anything', why not tell the devs not to give out 'half a secret' so people are left to speculate to puzzle out what will be. People's brains actually work sometimes- they try to 'guess what's in the box'- cause 'it's fun'. So they're more likely to be wrong than right- I agree. Lives are lost? Hardly. But yes, continue to tell people how to think "Build your WISH list, not your EXPECTATION list". Screw that. Let them wish. If their wishes are better than the delivered product then too bad for them, true- or maybe- just maybe, the dev could work a bit harder as well.
You never heard the expression "There's no such thing as a new invention?". New things build on old ideas- discussion enhances that.
Some of the time anyway.
Now I know you're arguing just to argue with me. "But yes, continue to tell people how to think "Build your WISH list, not your EXPECTATION list". Screw that. Let them wish."
I just got done telling you to let them wish, and then you said "screw that, let them wish." like your idea was better, eventhough it was the same exact thing I just said.
You think the developers can work harder giving everyone everything they want? You're wrong. Have you ever heard the expression "Variety is the spice of life" ? Let people decide what they like and what they don't and accept others opinions on what they like and what they don't. Not everything has to be about you. If developers want to create something that has only 100 people per instance and has action oriented FPS gameplay, and you "discuss" about wanting an open world and RPG gameplay and they don't listen to you, tough deal with it, the game obviously wasn't made just for you, thats their decision, so you can play the game for what they created, or you can decide not to.
Quoting done for Adamantine (you are right, I hate writing in colors like that, its tough to follow)
My 2 cents on this is fairly simple. If I buy a game, I expect that game to be finished. I expect that if When I hit that last level that there will be things for me to do. Fighting, crafting, socialiing should all be there ready for me, the consumer, to do at any level. Anything else is as far as I am concerned is consumer fraud. We have all gotten into this "when the developers run out of money they publish the game and then push content and bug fixes as they go" already getting our money on a regular basis for an unfinished game and we let them get away with this. Part of this is our fault as consumers for not demanding what our money gives us the right to demand. In this case a finished product.
When a game developer/publisher throws out an unfinished game they are saying we (consumers) do not want this game to be finished, we should expect that at some point the developer may or may not add to the game. They already got some of our money so there! take that you stupid consumers. The level of arrogance from developers has been increasing of late if anyone has noticed? I tell you this, if we want to play an unfinished game, we might as well go and fly in an unfinished airplane or car, the basis is the same, if any of you disagree with that then i would say that you are a developer in consumer clothing using this forum for disinformation.
My 2 cents on this is fairly simple. If I buy a game, I expect that game to be finished. I expect that if When I hit that last level that there will be things for me to do. Fighting, crafting, socialiing should all be there ready for me, the consumer, to do at any level. Anything else is as far as I am concerned is consumer fraud. We have all gotten into this "when the developers run out of money they publish the game and then push content and bug fixes as they go" already getting our money on a regular basis for an unfinished game and we let them get away with this. Part of this is our fault as consumers for not demanding what our money gives us the right to demand. In this case a finished product.
When a game developer/publisher throws out an unfinished game they are saying we (consumers) do not want this game to be finished, we should expect that at some point the developer may or may not add to the game. They already got some of our money so there! take that you stupid consumers. The level of arrogance from developers has been increasing of late if anyone has noticed? I tell you this, if we want to play an unfinished game, we might as well go and fly in an unfinished airplane or car, the basis is the same, if any of you disagree with that then i would say that you are a developer in consumer clothing using this forum for disinformation.
My 2 cents.
not to mention we are expected to pay for not just an unfinished game but wel pay them to fix it, which in mmo standards takes months and so with the monthly charge aint cheap.
Also I find it amusing that the developers and publishers claim that the 14$ each months go to server costs/maintenance, its outright fraud dammit, not even a tenth of that goes to server costs. Why are we expected to pay for patch updates and ontop of that pay more for expansions, micro transfers etc.
Only in mmos, no other genre would this possible to do, or is it? Lets just hope not.
For the record, I thought you were just frustrated/mistaken to start, but at this point I'm feeling like the OP was just a troll post anyway, so continue your 'posting criteria' standard discussion to ammend freedom of speech on behalf of MMO devs 'in the interest of good for all'. I'm done here.
That you still think the OP was about "discussion" just shows how over your head it was. Nothing in my original post or any other post of mine thereafter is hypocritical. You still just don't understand that nothing I've said takes the power away from the consumer. Expectations and Entitlement kills MMOs for each player that bases their enjoyment on these items that have never been confirmed. You are arguing something completely different then what this entire thread is about, so, to reiterate from my previous post, with a slight deviation. This thread just isn't for you.
I appreciate you taking your time to voice your opinion on your perceived intentions of the OP, but its apparent you think this is solely about words on a forum board.
My 2 cents on this is fairly simple. If I buy a game, I expect that game to be finished. I expect that if When I hit that last level that there will be things for me to do. Fighting, crafting, socialiing should all be there ready for me, the consumer, to do at any level. Anything else is as far as I am concerned is consumer fraud. We have all gotten into this "when the developers run out of money they publish the game and then push content and bug fixes as they go" already getting our money on a regular basis for an unfinished game and we let them get away with this. Part of this is our fault as consumers for not demanding what our money gives us the right to demand. In this case a finished product.
When a game developer/publisher throws out an unfinished game they are saying we (consumers) do not want this game to be finished, we should expect that at some point the developer may or may not add to the game. They already got some of our money so there! take that you stupid consumers. The level of arrogance from developers has been increasing of late if anyone has noticed? I tell you this, if we want to play an unfinished game, we might as well go and fly in an unfinished airplane or car, the basis is the same, if any of you disagree with that then i would say that you are a developer in consumer clothing using this forum for disinformation.
My 2 cents.
not to mention we are expected to pay for not just an unfinished game but wel pay them to fix it, which in mmo standards takes months and so with the monthly charge aint cheap.
Also I find it amusing that the developers and publishers claim that the 14$ each months go to server costs/maintenance, its outright fraud dammit, not even a tenth of that goes to server costs. Why are we expected to pay for patch updates and ontop of that pay more for expansions, micro transfers etc.
Only in mmos, no other genre would this possible to do, or is it? Lets just hope not.
I agree with you both. Lets take a chapter out of the great MMO book: The Mortal Online chapter.
Now when the game was announced and planned everyone kept their same expectations, that a game would be finished, feature complete, etc. The features and stability were never confirmed to be complete, yet you had those that just expected they were competent enough to complete these things. People put their money on the line based on their beliefs and expectations, that of which were never shown. They voted based on their expectation, not on any actual knowledge.
When game companies throw out unfinished games, they do indeed say they want us to pay for an unfinished game, and we, as consumers, pay -- under the expectation that these games will be fixed. We go into these games expecting finished results, and we always get disappointed. We can choose not to buy games that aren't finished, and we can choose to stop playing games that are broken, and we can make recommendations and criticize on what we want fixed.... but how can we automatically expect these things to be this way, if it is never confirmed to be this way?
We can only expect a game to be how it is, and not how we wish it to be. Thats all I'm saying. I think we'd see happier players if they didn't have such bad experiences with MMOs that they expected something the company wouldn't or didn't provide, or that never came to fruition.
This is different then a company telling you something will be in game, and then releasing without it. This is the exact opposite of that.
Or how about the Developers stop hyping the hell out of a game saying it is going to have XXX only for it to come out and it forgot to add the XXX and decided to save money they added just one X and a partial y.
Remember it takes two to tango.
Games that offer XXX? Is 'tango' some new codeword I should be looking for on boxes?
I've been playing the wrong games, apparently!
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
You are arguing something completely different then what this entire thread is about, so, to reiterate from my previous post, with a slight deviation. This thread just isn't for you.
I appreciate you taking your time to voice your opinion on your perceived intentions of the OP, but its apparent you think this is solely about words on a forum board.
You know how you think you say something, but actually convey a whole other meaning, and someone has to point out that what you apparently said and what you apparently meant were two different things?
Originally posted by maskedweasel
The answer is, we as players are entitled to nothing, and should expect generally, and in the most obtuse way, only what the development team can confirm.
Players are entitled to many things- you may disagree. Players can reasonably expect many things, you may disagree. People may turn to many sources, you may disagree.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
It would be in our best interest not to read ahead, yet we can't help ourselves.
It is in 'our' best interest to enjoy life. If not reading ahead does it for you, fine. In any other respect, your words are not law, and your actions (OP entitilement- as if the thread can not grow beyond your limits. Projection and speculation about my mindset, limits and motivation, etc) are 'counter' the exact principles you set above.
Close your eyes, make much noise, act like you know better.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Have you ever heard the expression "Variety is the spice of life" ? Let people decide what they like and what they don't and accept others opinions on what they like and what they don't. Not everything has to be about you.
Why don't you tell me what I can't get, and what 'forum' isn't appropriate for me.
Ans with great sarcasm I tell you 'No, you're not a hypocrite.'
And, in the end, we'll agree to disagree. Perhaps thats the best part, is that you can continue to go on with what you believe, and I can do the same, and no matter how wrong I feel you are that "players are entitled to many things" you can still feel that entitlement and allow your animosity to fill when companies don't pull through for you. Maybe you won't and you'll find a game with "faults" that you can overlook long enough to find something enjoyable. I don't wish any ill will toward your gaming habit -- my focus was to point out these two very specific points that run rampant through the voices of disappointed players everywhere.
I think you have a particular issue because you feel I'm telling you what to think and what to say, as you even go as far to argue whilst agreeing with me. In the same avenue you request that I yield my position, and what I feel kills the average players spirit, and that I choose not to yield simply because I can yell louder -- and through all of that, I am still the hypocrite. I suppose its easiest just to accept that I may as well be a hypocrite, after all . . we are just anonymous names on a forum board. Why should I try and breed perspective or optimism.
You are arguing something completely different then what this entire thread is about, so, to reiterate from my previous post, with a slight deviation. This thread just isn't for you.
I appreciate you taking your time to voice your opinion on your perceived intentions of the OP, but its apparent you think this is solely about words on a forum board.
You know how you think you say something, but actually convey a whole other meaning, and someone has to point out that what you apparently said and what you apparently meant were two different things?
Originally posted by maskedweasel
The answer is, we as players are entitled to nothing, and should expect generally, and in the most obtuse way, only what the development team can confirm.
Players are entitled to many things- you may disagree. Players can reasonably expect many things, you may disagree. People may turn to many sources, you may disagree.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
It would be in our best interest not to read ahead, yet we can't help ourselves.
It is in 'our' best interest to enjoy life. If not reading ahead does it for you, fine. In any other respect, your words are not law, and your actions (OP entitilement- as if the thread can not grow beyond your limits. Projection and speculation about my mindset, limits and motivation, etc) are 'counter' the exact principles you set above.
Close your eyes, make much noise, act like you know better.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Have you ever heard the expression "Variety is the spice of life" ? Let people decide what they like and what they don't and accept others opinions on what they like and what they don't. Not everything has to be about you.
Why don't you tell me what I can't get, and what 'forum' isn't appropriate for me.
Ans with great sarcasm I tell you 'No, you're not a hypocrite.'
And, in the end, we'll agree to disagree. Perhaps thats the best part, is that you can continue to go on with what you believe, and I can do the same, and no matter how wrong I feel you are that "players are entitled to many things" you can still feel that entitlement and allow your animosity to fill when companies don't pull through for you. Maybe you won't and you'll find a game with "faults" that you can overlook long enough to find something enjoyable. I don't wish any ill will toward your gaming habit -- my focus was to point out these two very specific points that run rampant through the voices of disappointed players everywhere.
what I feel kills the average players spirit
We are not the average player. Those of us who post on official forums, be it post launch or in beta, are 'informed consumers' and our opinions, be they good or bad, drive the gaming industry. We argue amongst ourselves a lot, because many people want many different things, but all of our opinions are of infinite value to the gaming companies.
As for entitlement. There are lines of decorum that should be maintained in any situation, and some of this 'entitlement' ranting I see out of people has gone far out of hand, I agree. However, if presented in a mature manner, opinions of entitlement and expectation are healthy and helpful.
We can only expect a game to be how it is, and not how we wish it to be. Thats all I'm saying.
That's also impossible. Causality doesn't work that way. That's apparently something easy to overlook. The devs don't even deliver all they expected half the time- and rarely on time to boot. 'Don't think about the game or hope for anything till it comes out- and for goodness sakes, don't talk about it- people might misunderstand and then you'd kill the game.
Get a grip.
Its actually not impossible. Things can only be how they are.
I expect TOR to be like this I don't expect it to be different until shown to be as such. Developers make promises that they can't keep and misleading someone based on their own misrepresentation of features is fraudulent. But that is another topic entirely.
Again though, you put words in my mouth .. never have I said not to hope, think or talk about the game. This, in turn is starting to look like a troll, repeatedly saying things you know I didn't say to get a response, in fact, I said quite the opposite. Many times.
You are arguing something completely different then what this entire thread is about, so, to reiterate from my previous post, with a slight deviation. This thread just isn't for you.
I appreciate you taking your time to voice your opinion on your perceived intentions of the OP, but its apparent you think this is solely about words on a forum board.
You know how you think you say something, but actually convey a whole other meaning, and someone has to point out that what you apparently said and what you apparently meant were two different things?
Originally posted by maskedweasel
The answer is, we as players are entitled to nothing, and should expect generally, and in the most obtuse way, only what the development team can confirm.
Players are entitled to many things- you may disagree. Players can reasonably expect many things, you may disagree. People may turn to many sources, you may disagree.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
It would be in our best interest not to read ahead, yet we can't help ourselves.
It is in 'our' best interest to enjoy life. If not reading ahead does it for you, fine. In any other respect, your words are not law, and your actions (OP entitilement- as if the thread can not grow beyond your limits. Projection and speculation about my mindset, limits and motivation, etc) are 'counter' the exact principles you set above.
Close your eyes, make much noise, act like you know better.
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Have you ever heard the expression "Variety is the spice of life" ? Let people decide what they like and what they don't and accept others opinions on what they like and what they don't. Not everything has to be about you.
Why don't you tell me what I can't get, and what 'forum' isn't appropriate for me.
Ans with great sarcasm I tell you 'No, you're not a hypocrite.'
And, in the end, we'll agree to disagree. Perhaps thats the best part, is that you can continue to go on with what you believe, and I can do the same, and no matter how wrong I feel you are that "players are entitled to many things" you can still feel that entitlement and allow your animosity to fill when companies don't pull through for you. Maybe you won't and you'll find a game with "faults" that you can overlook long enough to find something enjoyable. I don't wish any ill will toward your gaming habit -- my focus was to point out these two very specific points that run rampant through the voices of disappointed players everywhere.
what I feel kills the average players spirit
We are not the average player. Those of us who post on official forums, be it post launch or in beta, are 'informed consumers' and our opinions, be they good or bad, drive the gaming industry. We argue amongst ourselves a lot, because many people want many different things, but all of our opinions are of infinite value to the gaming companies.
As for entitlement. There are lines of decorum that should be maintained in any situation, and some of this 'entitlement' ranting I see out of people has gone far out of hand, I agree. However, if presented in a mature manner, opinions of entitlement and expectation are healthy and helpful.
Though I will concede (as I did earlier via a post regarding IPs primarily) that in very well presented ways probable expectations are healthy and helpful especially in regards to consumer feedback. I still feel strongly that we are not entitled to anything.
1:massive=how can we be more explicit that word alone says it all ,one exemple vanilla wow!(your company is not sure check ccp,eve)
2:mulitplayer=again where can they mistake the meaning lol use same masurement as first!
3:online=again what is there not to get ,online says it all but if you need comparing check vanilla wow or eve!
so in the end gamers know exactly what they need and want ,compared to the early days of online gaming
that is the most annoying fact for corp you cannot just do a chess game then brand it as a mmo and expect to say to player oh sorry you dont understand what a mmo is!lol ya right lot of corp wishes that!but fortunatly we got the past that gave us great exemple of what is a massive game ,what is a multiplayer game yes this one evolved and encompass a bit more then it used to,and online witch is simple to understand
so the only one that truelly expended is multiplayer ,massive and online has always been the same but the corp are pushing very hard to make player believe that a multiplayer is a massive game.SORRY BUT IT HAS NEVER BEEN SO! THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT HOPED FOR THAT ARE THE COMPANY!
so the expectation and entitlement you referred to in the title are just and justifiable by gamer with ton of exemple they can bring to the table with video proof etc!i bet if a corp ask for exemple they would be surprised by the amount of tube player would bring as exemple of what constitute massive what player consider multiplayer etc!
1:massive=how can we be more explicit that word alone says it all ,one exemple vanilla wow!(your company is not sure check ccp,eve)
massive implies ? how many concurrent players? which is the threshold?
2:mulitplayer=again where can they mistake the meaning lol use same masurement as first!
as long there are 2 is multiplayer
3:online=again what is there not to get ,online says it all but if you need comparing check vanilla wow or eve!
internet is needed to play it
so in the end gamers know exactly what they need and want ,compared to the early days of online gaming
they might have games to compare but those needs and likes could be considered created, they might know better than before, but knowing exactly, hardly.
that is the most annoying fact for corp you cannot just do a chess game then brand it as a mmo and expect to say to player oh sorry you dont understand what a mmo is!lol ya right lot of corp wishes that!but fortunatly we got the past that gave us great exemple of what is a massive game ,what is a multiplayer game yes this one evolved and encompass a bit more then it used to,and online witch is simple to understand
there are people still playing ragnarok online, pretty much show that fun is not necessarily linked to hard criteria but to personal tastes.
so the only one that truelly expended is multiplayer ,massive and online has always been the same but the corp are pushing very hard to make player believe that a multiplayer is a massive game.SORRY BUT IT HAS NEVER BEEN SO! THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT HOPED FOR THAT ARE THE COMPANY!
Massive is something define. I could argue that wow is not massive since I can't put 500 players in the ironforge's bank without crashing the server or at least generating unbearable lag.
so the expectation and entitlement you referred to in the title are just and justifiable by gamer with ton of exemple they can bring to the table with video proof etc!i bet if a corp ask for exemple they would be surprised by the amount of tube player would bring as exemple of what constitute massive what player consider multiplayer etc!
I hope you wont do research because using anecdotes as evidence is not precisely scientific.
I really feel bad for the OP, since he tried to do a reasonable analysis on how unreasonable expectations on the new games will eventually damage industry more than help it.
The issue with this trend of complaining and whining is that creates so much noise that actually even devs who are willing to listen get lost in this sea of anger an bitterness. Most people believe that if they complain on rampage the only result that could happen is the improvement of the game. That's not true, they also could result in shutting down the game for good with repercursions to the IP. This is also for the STO extremist bashers. Some of them(hopefully a minority) are under the illusion that if they can make STO to shutdown another company is going to take the IP and fulfill their dreams. Imho, if STO fails to the point of an early shutdown, no respectable dev company is going to touch the IP for the next 10 years, and the interests in scifi mmos might be decreased. Combative but moody crowds scare investors since they can always put their money in something where the profit will be more likely and stable to obtain.
1:massive=how can we be more explicit that word alone says it all ,one exemple vanilla wow!(your company is not sure check ccp,eve)
massive implies ? how many concurrent players? which is the threshold?
2:mulitplayer=again where can they mistake the meaning lol use same masurement as first!
as long there are 2 is multiplayer
3:online=again what is there not to get ,online says it all but if you need comparing check vanilla wow or eve!
internet is needed to play it
so in the end gamers know exactly what they need and want ,compared to the early days of online gaming
they might have games to compare but those needs and likes could be considered created, they might know better than before, but knowing exactly, hardly.
that is the most annoying fact for corp you cannot just do a chess game then brand it as a mmo and expect to say to player oh sorry you dont understand what a mmo is!lol ya right lot of corp wishes that!but fortunatly we got the past that gave us great exemple of what is a massive game ,what is a multiplayer game yes this one evolved and encompass a bit more then it used to,and online witch is simple to understand
there are people still playing ragnarok online, pretty much show that fun is not necessarily linked to hard criteria but to personal tastes.
so the only one that truelly expended is multiplayer ,massive and online has always been the same but the corp are pushing very hard to make player believe that a multiplayer is a massive game.SORRY BUT IT HAS NEVER BEEN SO! THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT HOPED FOR THAT ARE THE COMPANY!
Massive is something define. I could argue that wow is not massive since I can't put 500 players in the ironforge's bank without crashing the server or at least generating unbearable lag.
so the expectation and entitlement you referred to in the title are just and justifiable by gamer with ton of exemple they can bring to the table with video proof etc!i bet if a corp ask for exemple they would be surprised by the amount of tube player would bring as exemple of what constitute massive what player consider multiplayer etc!
I hope you wont do research because using anecdotes as evidence is not precisely scientific.
I really feel bad for the OP, since he tried to do a reasonable analysis on how unreasonable expectations on the new games will eventually damage industry more than help it.
The issue with this trend of complaining and whining is that creates so much noise that actually even devs who are willing to listen get lost in this sea of anger an bitterness. Most people believe that if they complain on rampage the only result that could happen is the improvement of the game. That's not true, they also could result in shutting down the game for good with repercursions to the IP. This is also for the STO extremist bashers. Some of them(hopefully a minority) are under the illusion that if they can make STO to shutdown another company is going to take the IP and fulfill their dreams. Imho, if STO fails to the point of an early shutdown, no respectable dev company is going to touch the IP for the next 10 years, and the interests in scifi mmos might be decreased. Combative but moody crowds scare investors since they can always put their money in something where the profit will be more likely and stable to obtain.
The only thing that is going to make STO shutdown is Cryptic managment . you guys can delude yourselves all you want but at the end of the day it all comes down to: A GOOD PRODUCT SELLS A POOR PRODUCT DIES it is not rocket science.
Players who line up to dump money into a system that is designed to reap the most cash in the easiest method are the ones killing the mmo industry. The MMO developers are going to take the shortest route to the cash. This is not giving game companies a reason or incentive to develope MMO games that are what most people on these forums wish for. If you ask for something with a dollar you better be prepared to get it jammed down your throat the rest of your life because the big wig with his hand out is not going to go back to working hard for your money if you aren't going to make him. I predict another 2 years maybe before the entire industry implodes on itself like other countries where people pay $50 bux a month towards 1 game with ever evolving methods of grind. Trapped in a hamster wheel.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
1:massive=how can we be more explicit that word alone says it all ,one exemple vanilla wow!(your company is not sure check ccp,eve)
massive implies ? how many concurrent players? which is the threshold?
2:mulitplayer=again where can they mistake the meaning lol use same masurement as first!
as long there are 2 is multiplayer
3:online=again what is there not to get ,online says it all but if you need comparing check vanilla wow or eve!
internet is needed to play it
so in the end gamers know exactly what they need and want ,compared to the early days of online gaming
they might have games to compare but those needs and likes could be considered created, they might know better than before, but knowing exactly, hardly.
that is the most annoying fact for corp you cannot just do a chess game then brand it as a mmo and expect to say to player oh sorry you dont understand what a mmo is!lol ya right lot of corp wishes that!but fortunatly we got the past that gave us great exemple of what is a massive game ,what is a multiplayer game yes this one evolved and encompass a bit more then it used to,and online witch is simple to understand
there are people still playing ragnarok online, pretty much show that fun is not necessarily linked to hard criteria but to personal tastes.
so the only one that truelly expended is multiplayer ,massive and online has always been the same but the corp are pushing very hard to make player believe that a multiplayer is a massive game.SORRY BUT IT HAS NEVER BEEN SO! THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT HOPED FOR THAT ARE THE COMPANY!
Massive is something define. I could argue that wow is not massive since I can't put 500 players in the ironforge's bank without crashing the server or at least generating unbearable lag.
so the expectation and entitlement you referred to in the title are just and justifiable by gamer with ton of exemple they can bring to the table with video proof etc!i bet if a corp ask for exemple they would be surprised by the amount of tube player would bring as exemple of what constitute massive what player consider multiplayer etc!
I hope you wont do research because using anecdotes as evidence is not precisely scientific.
I really feel bad for the OP, since he tried to do a reasonable analysis on how unreasonable expectations on the new games will eventually damage industry more than help it.
The issue with this trend of complaining and whining is that creates so much noise that actually even devs who are willing to listen get lost in this sea of anger an bitterness. Most people believe that if they complain on rampage the only result that could happen is the improvement of the game. That's not true, they also could result in shutting down the game for good with repercursions to the IP. This is also for the STO extremist bashers. Some of them(hopefully a minority) are under the illusion that if they can make STO to shutdown another company is going to take the IP and fulfill their dreams. Imho, if STO fails to the point of an early shutdown, no respectable dev company is going to touch the IP for the next 10 years, and the interests in scifi mmos might be decreased. Combative but moody crowds scare investors since they can always put their money in something where the profit will be more likely and stable to obtain.
The only thing that is going to make STO shutdown is Cryptic managment . you guys can delude yourselves all you want but at the end of the day it all comes down to: A GOOD PRODUCT SELLS A POOR PRODUCT DIES it is not rocket science.
Actually, this is one thing that I can agree with. Best product sells the most. Therefore, wow is the best mmo ever with no questions. If we want the best then we should all play wow. Time for me to check Cat preorders.
1:massive=how can we be more explicit that word alone says it all ,one exemple vanilla wow!(your company is not sure check ccp,eve)
massive implies ? how many concurrent players? which is the threshold?
2:mulitplayer=again where can they mistake the meaning lol use same masurement as first!
as long there are 2 is multiplayer
3:online=again what is there not to get ,online says it all but if you need comparing check vanilla wow or eve!
internet is needed to play it
so in the end gamers know exactly what they need and want ,compared to the early days of online gaming
they might have games to compare but those needs and likes could be considered created, they might know better than before, but knowing exactly, hardly.
that is the most annoying fact for corp you cannot just do a chess game then brand it as a mmo and expect to say to player oh sorry you dont understand what a mmo is!lol ya right lot of corp wishes that!but fortunatly we got the past that gave us great exemple of what is a massive game ,what is a multiplayer game yes this one evolved and encompass a bit more then it used to,and online witch is simple to understand
there are people still playing ragnarok online, pretty much show that fun is not necessarily linked to hard criteria but to personal tastes.
so the only one that truelly expended is multiplayer ,massive and online has always been the same but the corp are pushing very hard to make player believe that a multiplayer is a massive game.SORRY BUT IT HAS NEVER BEEN SO! THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT HOPED FOR THAT ARE THE COMPANY!
Massive is something define. I could argue that wow is not massive since I can't put 500 players in the ironforge's bank without crashing the server or at least generating unbearable lag.
so the expectation and entitlement you referred to in the title are just and justifiable by gamer with ton of exemple they can bring to the table with video proof etc!i bet if a corp ask for exemple they would be surprised by the amount of tube player would bring as exemple of what constitute massive what player consider multiplayer etc!
I hope you wont do research because using anecdotes as evidence is not precisely scientific.
I really feel bad for the OP, since he tried to do a reasonable analysis on how unreasonable expectations on the new games will eventually damage industry more than help it.
The issue with this trend of complaining and whining is that creates so much noise that actually even devs who are willing to listen get lost in this sea of anger an bitterness. Most people believe that if they complain on rampage the only result that could happen is the improvement of the game. That's not true, they also could result in shutting down the game for good with repercursions to the IP. This is also for the STO extremist bashers. Some of them(hopefully a minority) are under the illusion that if they can make STO to shutdown another company is going to take the IP and fulfill their dreams. Imho, if STO fails to the point of an early shutdown, no respectable dev company is going to touch the IP for the next 10 years, and the interests in scifi mmos might be decreased. Combative but moody crowds scare investors since they can always put their money in something where the profit will be more likely and stable to obtain.
The only thing that is going to make STO shutdown is Cryptic managment . you guys can delude yourselves all you want but at the end of the day it all comes down to: A GOOD PRODUCT SELLS A POOR PRODUCT DIES it is not rocket science.
Actually, this is one thing that I can agree with. Best product sells the most. Therefore, wow is the best mmo ever with no questions. If we want the best then we should all play wow. Time for me to check Cat preorders.
Please do not twist my words i said GOOD PRODUCTS SELL A POOR PRODUCT DIES and even though i do not play wow judging from the numbers that play it it would be a good product. BEST would be a matter of opinion and subjective at best.
Comments
Couldnt agree more. I think players as a whole have come to expect a standard, and yes Im one of those players.
I for one look for several things at this point. combat, crafting/economy, exploration and story. Mind you story is just really getting there for many developmentr teams in thier games, while others have used it from the get go and thats not bad, but I think when developers stray away from one of those things in order to have more of another they are hurting the game as a whole. Then again I dont jump on gaming forums and yell "PHAIL!" just because one of those things is missing. I just withhold my money until that feature or part of the game is in. No big deal. If it never sees the light of day, then I dont play the game. Thats my right as a consumer.
I think at some point we as players can have so much patience and toleration but lets face it, mmorpg's are a frustrating genre in the first place. Who here can name a game that had a bug free launch for instance? or a single year where players werent reporting bugs and lag issues? hasnt happened. Not one mmorpg development team has had that luxury, so we do give them credit, noone is saying making an mmo is easy, rather, we have all come to expect a standard and after so many mmo turn outs, we cant understand why a team would go outside of the norm before they have the standard in place? On that note, I dont think you deviate from the standard when your modeling after an IP, canon or otherwise, the game is an mmorpg first.
On other accounts I think money has always played a bigger and better part in the development then the developers themselves over time. For me or anyone else to jump on a gaming forum and scream at developers in the term of, You dont know wtf your doing ect.. is silly, especially when deadlines and funds have gotten tighter with higher costs. So on some point I respect these folks trying to churn out the best mmorpg they can when theyre rushed, because they have to deal with the player aggro for it and not the boards an shareholders who remain silent and behind the scenes. At some point developers should really start to draw a line as well, which can't be easy in this market or for any other creative, but should say hey look, were not going to rush things anymore, we're going to create something here that people can enjoy and if you dont want to fund us to help people get thier monies worth and yours, then we arent doing it. Thats just plain quality and a good business practice for anyone selling anything.
Speaking on patience and tolerance, Blizzard has had years on top of years and million apon million to construct and polish thier primary title, on that note, many of these other games people scream fail at need that same time and money right along with patience and tolerance from the players. However, allowing for time to develope the world is not an excuse to launch poorly and in a shallow manner, launch with the standards and do the extra stuff as you go, if your trying to keep an audience, why would you do otherwise? When you do that your effectively telling the consumer Im going to sell you half of the game now and half of the game later. Who here can be happy about that? I know the developers cant be happy about it, because we sure as hell arent.
For instance why launch with combat only knowing players will hit cap in a short time, in that short time you know the players will have nothing to do that they havent already done. Thats a perfect example of taking several thousand players who enjoy your game at first and come to realize that the game no longer offers playability, rather its time to cancel. And developers are doing this lately, when you launch an mmo you have to give the players more to do than one thing in your game, this also gives you time to start working on the things your wanting to put in. (and no I dont mean time syncs) They have to be able to stay busy and enjoy themselves and when they cant, yes, they start screaming fail.
Now for the guy who started in a few posts ago saying "players dont know shit " ect, I beg to differ, if they didnt know what they wanted they wouldnt get so upset. Players have not put thier money into mmorpgs as the vocal monetary contributor after the fact to play games that dont meet expectations, to play games that have been rushed out, half completed or highly lacking. Ask developers? They are playing these games too! They are also players and they often realize when they have been taken short even moreso than the players who dont work in the genre. They can tell.
Granted we have all probably seen some very creative suggestion from the playerbase and yes, the players presenting these suggestions may not know technicly how these things are done, but its what theyre clearly asking for, a design of fun in thier own minds. This is where all the creative process begins anyway. Mind you it takes two seconds for a developer to login to the forum and say oh wow, great suggestion, however, at this time we're technicly incapable of doing that. NO harm no foul and the player has been informed. A player would rather have that than no answer at all. So communication is also key here.
I don't think you understand the words you're even using. Expectation means you are anticipating something. If you are anticipating a feature that was never announced, or isn't in the realm of possibility then all you are doing is getting your hopes up over an illusion. Thats what this is about, its not about hypothesis, its not about estimations, however it is more about assumptions then either of the previous and primarily about expectations.
If you expect that the next electric car GM will produce will also be the first flying car, but you base it on your assumption that that is how the market will go, then you will be let down and disillusioned. If you expect a game to cater to your favorite FPS style of gameplay, and you buy it and it doesn't, then you've let yourself down before you even started the game. This has nothing to do with customer feedback. This has nothing to do with improving features. Its expecting these features, or feeling companies owe you these features, simply because you want them.
You can ask them to add PvP, you can threaten to not play the game without PvP, and you can talk to everyone about what kind of PvP would, or could, be in the game, but until the developers have confirmed it, you shouldn't expect it or feel they owe it to you. If the game releases without it, and you buy it anyway, then you aren't playing the game for what they released it with, you are playing an unfinished version in your head that was never intended.
It leaves everything the developers have confirmed, and any conjecture on how you think the features may work, or what features you'd like to see. You just shouldn't expect any of these features unless they have been confirmed, unless of course, you want to be let down. I can't explain it any simpler then that. Some developer may say "Hey they say they want mounted combat, we should put it in there" is much different then a player saying "I was expecting mounted combat, which they don't have, so the game fails" when it was never on the feature list. Again, I wonder how you are defining what expectation means.
I did say so, thanks.
Erroneous, you displayed distaste and I never claimed to know you, nor would I. I can only express how I perceive what you write, and in that instance, it looked like you weren't very happy with George Lucas.
When you buy anything, whether it be a game, car, horse, hamburger, you are the consumer. Guild Wars didn't force you to buy their product. If you buy it sight unseen then thats your problem. I vote with my wallet everyday when I buy a sandwich for lunch, or a coffee in the morning. Thats how the world works, not every company is trying to dupe you. Stupid consumers are just that, and if you buy a product that you though was something else, then you deserve what you get. I've done it before, I'm sure we all have. Fortunately in the MMO and entertainment field we have a number of ways to determine if something is for us and what isn't. Dreams don't equal expectations. Dreams equal wants or desires. Entitlement doesn't equal spirit, it comprises a claim that you feel you deserve.
You'd rather listen to countless rants then a fanboi that enjoys the game? Thats your prerogative, you'd rather listen to whats broken then whats enjoyable, thats great for you. If you want to thrive on broken promises that were never made, then expect all you want, I'm glad you'll enjoy playing your always broken games.
The thing is, everybody asks for something different. Some people like capture the flag, maybe the developers themselves prefer it. Fedex quests and kill X amount quests are not just part of MMOs but they have them in lots of RPGs. It gets way overdone in MMOs due to the necessity for expanded content, which ends up always being repetitive. I agree with you in the sense that things need to change in that regard, but I also don't hear a lot of "Instead of X amount of rats, can't we have..." posts. Maybe developers need our help to create a new way to progress, but we shouldn't automatically expect them to come up with something different because we feel killing 10 rats is boring.
Now I know you're arguing just to argue with me. "But yes, continue to tell people how to think "Build your WISH list, not your EXPECTATION list". Screw that. Let them wish."
I just got done telling you to let them wish, and then you said "screw that, let them wish." like your idea was better, eventhough it was the same exact thing I just said.
You think the developers can work harder giving everyone everything they want? You're wrong. Have you ever heard the expression "Variety is the spice of life" ? Let people decide what they like and what they don't and accept others opinions on what they like and what they don't. Not everything has to be about you. If developers want to create something that has only 100 people per instance and has action oriented FPS gameplay, and you "discuss" about wanting an open world and RPG gameplay and they don't listen to you, tough deal with it, the game obviously wasn't made just for you, thats their decision, so you can play the game for what they created, or you can decide not to.
Quoting done for Adamantine (you are right, I hate writing in colors like that, its tough to follow)
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Wow, you guys are wound up today.
My 2 cents on this is fairly simple. If I buy a game, I expect that game to be finished. I expect that if When I hit that last level that there will be things for me to do. Fighting, crafting, socialiing should all be there ready for me, the consumer, to do at any level. Anything else is as far as I am concerned is consumer fraud. We have all gotten into this "when the developers run out of money they publish the game and then push content and bug fixes as they go" already getting our money on a regular basis for an unfinished game and we let them get away with this. Part of this is our fault as consumers for not demanding what our money gives us the right to demand. In this case a finished product.
When a game developer/publisher throws out an unfinished game they are saying we (consumers) do not want this game to be finished, we should expect that at some point the developer may or may not add to the game. They already got some of our money so there! take that you stupid consumers. The level of arrogance from developers has been increasing of late if anyone has noticed? I tell you this, if we want to play an unfinished game, we might as well go and fly in an unfinished airplane or car, the basis is the same, if any of you disagree with that then i would say that you are a developer in consumer clothing using this forum for disinformation.
My 2 cents.
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not to mention we are expected to pay for not just an unfinished game but wel pay them to fix it, which in mmo standards takes months and so with the monthly charge aint cheap.
Also I find it amusing that the developers and publishers claim that the 14$ each months go to server costs/maintenance, its outright fraud dammit, not even a tenth of that goes to server costs. Why are we expected to pay for patch updates and ontop of that pay more for expansions, micro transfers etc.
Only in mmos, no other genre would this possible to do, or is it? Lets just hope not.
That you still think the OP was about "discussion" just shows how over your head it was. Nothing in my original post or any other post of mine thereafter is hypocritical. You still just don't understand that nothing I've said takes the power away from the consumer. Expectations and Entitlement kills MMOs for each player that bases their enjoyment on these items that have never been confirmed. You are arguing something completely different then what this entire thread is about, so, to reiterate from my previous post, with a slight deviation. This thread just isn't for you.
I appreciate you taking your time to voice your opinion on your perceived intentions of the OP, but its apparent you think this is solely about words on a forum board.
I agree with you both. Lets take a chapter out of the great MMO book: The Mortal Online chapter.
Now when the game was announced and planned everyone kept their same expectations, that a game would be finished, feature complete, etc. The features and stability were never confirmed to be complete, yet you had those that just expected they were competent enough to complete these things. People put their money on the line based on their beliefs and expectations, that of which were never shown. They voted based on their expectation, not on any actual knowledge.
When game companies throw out unfinished games, they do indeed say they want us to pay for an unfinished game, and we, as consumers, pay -- under the expectation that these games will be fixed. We go into these games expecting finished results, and we always get disappointed. We can choose not to buy games that aren't finished, and we can choose to stop playing games that are broken, and we can make recommendations and criticize on what we want fixed.... but how can we automatically expect these things to be this way, if it is never confirmed to be this way?
We can only expect a game to be how it is, and not how we wish it to be. Thats all I'm saying. I think we'd see happier players if they didn't have such bad experiences with MMOs that they expected something the company wouldn't or didn't provide, or that never came to fruition.
This is different then a company telling you something will be in game, and then releasing without it. This is the exact opposite of that.
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Games that offer XXX? Is 'tango' some new codeword I should be looking for on boxes?
I've been playing the wrong games, apparently!
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
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And, in the end, we'll agree to disagree. Perhaps thats the best part, is that you can continue to go on with what you believe, and I can do the same, and no matter how wrong I feel you are that "players are entitled to many things" you can still feel that entitlement and allow your animosity to fill when companies don't pull through for you. Maybe you won't and you'll find a game with "faults" that you can overlook long enough to find something enjoyable. I don't wish any ill will toward your gaming habit -- my focus was to point out these two very specific points that run rampant through the voices of disappointed players everywhere.
I think you have a particular issue because you feel I'm telling you what to think and what to say, as you even go as far to argue whilst agreeing with me. In the same avenue you request that I yield my position, and what I feel kills the average players spirit, and that I choose not to yield simply because I can yell louder -- and through all of that, I am still the hypocrite. I suppose its easiest just to accept that I may as well be a hypocrite, after all . . we are just anonymous names on a forum board. Why should I try and breed perspective or optimism.
We are not the average player. Those of us who post on official forums, be it post launch or in beta, are 'informed consumers' and our opinions, be they good or bad, drive the gaming industry. We argue amongst ourselves a lot, because many people want many different things, but all of our opinions are of infinite value to the gaming companies.
As for entitlement. There are lines of decorum that should be maintained in any situation, and some of this 'entitlement' ranting I see out of people has gone far out of hand, I agree. However, if presented in a mature manner, opinions of entitlement and expectation are healthy and helpful.
Its actually not impossible. Things can only be how they are.
I expect TOR to be like this I don't expect it to be different until shown to be as such. Developers make promises that they can't keep and misleading someone based on their own misrepresentation of features is fraudulent. But that is another topic entirely.
Again though, you put words in my mouth .. never have I said not to hope, think or talk about the game. This, in turn is starting to look like a troll, repeatedly saying things you know I didn't say to get a response, in fact, I said quite the opposite. Many times.
Though I will concede (as I did earlier via a post regarding IPs primarily) that in very well presented ways probable expectations are healthy and helpful especially in regards to consumer feedback. I still feel strongly that we are not entitled to anything.
This makes no sense. a topic that blames the downful of MMO's on people and actually makes sense. You must just be confused, let me help you out.
"The Real Killer of MMOs: WoW"
Just figured thats what you meant. Too much logic in here for my tastes.
/wink
Bro you are playing LOTRO like it owes you money - Grunt187
Anticipation : TERA
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1:massive=how can we be more explicit that word alone says it all ,one exemple vanilla wow!(your company is not sure check ccp,eve)
2:mulitplayer=again where can they mistake the meaning lol use same masurement as first!
3:online=again what is there not to get ,online says it all but if you need comparing check vanilla wow or eve!
so in the end gamers know exactly what they need and want ,compared to the early days of online gaming
that is the most annoying fact for corp you cannot just do a chess game then brand it as a mmo and expect to say to player oh sorry you dont understand what a mmo is!lol ya right lot of corp wishes that!but fortunatly we got the past that gave us great exemple of what is a massive game ,what is a multiplayer game yes this one evolved and encompass a bit more then it used to,and online witch is simple to understand
so the only one that truelly expended is multiplayer ,massive and online has always been the same but the corp are pushing very hard to make player believe that a multiplayer is a massive game.SORRY BUT IT HAS NEVER BEEN SO! THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT HOPED FOR THAT ARE THE COMPANY!
so the expectation and entitlement you referred to in the title are just and justifiable by gamer with ton of exemple they can bring to the table with video proof etc!i bet if a corp ask for exemple they would be surprised by the amount of tube player would bring as exemple of what constitute massive what player consider multiplayer etc!
OP:
Define 'entitled' or wht exacly do you mean by that?
Or else, the point you are trying to make will not find proper footing.
I really feel bad for the OP, since he tried to do a reasonable analysis on how unreasonable expectations on the new games will eventually damage industry more than help it.
The issue with this trend of complaining and whining is that creates so much noise that actually even devs who are willing to listen get lost in this sea of anger an bitterness. Most people believe that if they complain on rampage the only result that could happen is the improvement of the game. That's not true, they also could result in shutting down the game for good with repercursions to the IP. This is also for the STO extremist bashers. Some of them(hopefully a minority) are under the illusion that if they can make STO to shutdown another company is going to take the IP and fulfill their dreams. Imho, if STO fails to the point of an early shutdown, no respectable dev company is going to touch the IP for the next 10 years, and the interests in scifi mmos might be decreased. Combative but moody crowds scare investors since they can always put their money in something where the profit will be more likely and stable to obtain.
The only thing that is going to make STO shutdown is Cryptic managment . you guys can delude yourselves all you want but at the end of the day it all comes down to: A GOOD PRODUCT SELLS A POOR PRODUCT DIES it is not rocket science.
Players who line up to dump money into a system that is designed to reap the most cash in the easiest method are the ones killing the mmo industry. The MMO developers are going to take the shortest route to the cash. This is not giving game companies a reason or incentive to develope MMO games that are what most people on these forums wish for. If you ask for something with a dollar you better be prepared to get it jammed down your throat the rest of your life because the big wig with his hand out is not going to go back to working hard for your money if you aren't going to make him. I predict another 2 years maybe before the entire industry implodes on itself like other countries where people pay $50 bux a month towards 1 game with ever evolving methods of grind. Trapped in a hamster wheel.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
Please do not twist my words i said GOOD PRODUCTS SELL A POOR PRODUCT DIES and even though i do not play wow judging from the numbers that play it it would be a good product. BEST would be a matter of opinion and subjective at best.